Leadership & The Courage to Fail: Kurt Bush

Summary

In this insightful interview, Kurt Bush shares his diverse life journey from manufacturing to seminary and coaching, emphasizing the importance of emotional awareness and leadership. Discover practical strategies for self-awareness, handling negative emotions, and leading with authenticity.

Key  Topics

• Leadership begins with self-awareness and emotional regulation.
• Naming and understanding your needs is crucial for authentic leadership.
• Emotions, whether positive or negative, serve a purpose and should be acknowledged.
• Transformation requires action, reflection, and repeated practice.

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https://calendly.com/cbrim/30min

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.808)
It it I i I you understand why. it's called the Chris Project.

Kurt Bush (00:03.36)
I do. I my business partner is a Christian and he goes by Chris.

Christian Brim (00:07.402)
Yes. Mm. I I don't know what it was when I was a kid. Some teacher shortened it and called me Chris and I was like, Mm, that's a girl's name. I don't like that. I don't I don't know why. I just yeah.

Kurt Bush (00:22.102)
Uh-huh.

Christian Brim (00:24.56)
my parents were hippies. I have no middle name. so yeah, I've got a very weird name. Okay. I'll I'll I'll get started here, Randy. You're not Randy. Randy's the audio engineer.

Welcome to another episode of the Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Welcome to the show, Kurt Busch. Kurt, thanks for coming on.

Kurt Bush (00:49.26)
Yeah, glad to be here, Christian. Thanks for having me.

Christian Brim (00:51.868)
Absolutely. So, why don't you give the audience a a brief C V synopsis of of your credentials?

Kurt Bush (01:00.396)
Yep. So I spent about a decade of my early career working in the manufacturing world. I supervised production process. I spent some time in HR. I did some labor recruiting for the plant, did some benefits administration. actually really loved that. I know people don't love that, but I had a great time doing it. I went from there into seminary as an adult. then I

pastored helped pastor a couple churches for about another decade after manufacturing and then I launched a coaching practice where I coach leaders of all kinds. I would say everybody leads something. So I coach leaders of their families and leaders of organizations and everywhere in between I help them get a little more clear on who they want to be and how they want to be and take steps to make that so.

Christian Brim (01:38.389)
Mm.

Christian Brim (01:51.498)
That that is an interesting life journey. Okay. I'm gonna start I'm gonna start with the obvious. you're you're calling into ministry as as a mature adult. What did that look like?

Kurt Bush (01:54.262)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Bush (02:03.116)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean there's a much deeper story that would take days to talk about, but my my wife and I got plugged into a church plant at a really young age. We were newly married, no kids, just kind of diving into this thing that we felt passionate about. and I had a couple of really good mentors along the way that let me lead in capacities that I probably didn't have any business leading in. so I think through that process, through some mentors pouring into me on purpose,

Christian Brim (02:14.452)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (02:28.767)
Mm.

Kurt Bush (02:35.009)
That sort of led into this like, okay, there might be something there for me to do vocationally.

Christian Brim (02:42.195)
Was that a difficult decision to make?

Kurt Bush (02:45.929)
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to I don't mean to make the face I just made, but yeah, i it was it was probably a year and a half or two years that I knew that I probably should be enrolling in seminary that I didn't. I I enjoyed my career. I enjoyed the company I worked for, I enjoyed the people I worked for and with. yeah, it was it was really, really hard and I avoided it for a really long time.

Christian Brim (03:12.539)
Yeah, yes. yes. because seminary is not cheap and it's not easy. and I it yeah, I don't think I'd voluntarily sign up for that. I I I a hundred percent wouldn't sign up to to be a a pastor. I I've said this multiple times, and I'm like, that sounds like one of the worst job descriptions on the planet. yeah, I

Kurt Bush (03:15.379)
Yeah.

Kurt Bush (03:26.592)
Ha ha.

Kurt Bush (03:40.702)
W why say more about that. W what what do you what do you mean by that?

Christian Brim (03:45.171)
Well, I mean

I I think from me and my experience the the a pastor's job is is largely

Christian Brim (04:01.523)
I I think the hardest part about it would be the

potential, not saying this happens all the time, but the potential's always there, to be serving two masters of your calling to the to God on one hand and then the congregants as another. Yeah. because you you're you know obviously your job is to pastor them and lead them.

but that that would seem to be a constant stress point.

Kurt Bush (04:45.559)
Yeah. Yeah, I I think that's fair. I think that's fair. And and I do, you know, I'm I'm pretty young relative to some colleagues that still pastor churches. I do think it's different today than it would have been twenty five years ago. The internet makes a difference, polarization makes a difference, megachurches make it like all of those things make that job harder today than it probably was at the turn of the century. but yeah, yeah, I I think I would say it's

Probably different in practice than it is in theory, if that makes sense.

Christian Brim (05:18.335)
Well, yeah. I mean, I o I'm gonna put a pa I'm gonna put a pin in this and I'm gonna come back to it because I find the topic interesting. But I wanna start with leadership, okay? it's it's interesting timing that I just wrote a Substack article for, you know, tens of people to read. about leadership.

Kurt Bush (05:23.884)
Yes.

Kurt Bush (05:29.026)
Yes.

Kurt Bush (05:40.108)
Ha ha.

Christian Brim (05:44.04)
And my own failure of leadership just in the last 18 months. And I I'm I'm gonna I'll I'll just summarize it for you and then I want to hear your perspective. so this is not the first time of failure of leadership on my part, but this latest iteration was I was

frustrated with the execution and the direction of the business. And I felt like i even to the point where like I don't know if I'm helping or hurting. Like I I even I even asked the the leadership team at our our annual meeting, I'm like, I don't I I I don't know that my head was in my hands, but I had that that like level of

Kurt Bush (06:27.541)
Mm.

Kurt Bush (06:39.874)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (06:42.669)
frustration and discontent of like I don't I don't know if if I'm in the right place, right? And what was interesting was that my my failure of leadership had become so complete that it was like I don't even know one if you guys need me and two you guys decide what direction we're going.

And I I kind of wrapped it in the magnimity of I'm I'm giving them the option and the choice. rather than clearly saying this this is this is what the failure was, was I was not willing to ask myself, what do I want?

Kurt Bush (07:38.679)
Hmm. Yeah.

Christian Brim (07:41.294)
And

to put it out there, like okay, you want this, now you've said it, now you're now now you're beholden to it.

Kurt Bush (07:53.643)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (07:55.632)
And then being able to hold them accountable to it. Like and and and if they didn't, you know, me being able to say, This is what I want, this is what I need from you as as part of the team, if they didn't execute on that, being able to say, I I'm sorry, we're gonna have to part ways. I need need somebody else that that can do this. To the to the extreme that

Making changes to the leadership did not team did not even consciously rise to my brain as an option. Right. so did a lot of a lot more deep work over the last six months. have declared what I want, what the vision is, and given the leadership team explicit asks of this is what I need from you.

and

It I I guess my my question to you is what what are your thoughts on that? Is that resonate with any experience you've had in working with other leaders?

Kurt Bush (09:13.769)
Yeah, one million percent Christian. I mean, I just wanna say first, like I think in twenty twenty six anybody willing to write Here's a Failure of Leadership that I had, I think deserves some sort of some sort of accolade or applause. I mean the cur the courage to say, Here's a place that I failed, maybe you can benefit from my failure and my learning, right? So I maybe like I'm struck right away at at how

Christian Brim (09:37.513)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (09:42.977)
How rarely that happens, kind of in the public sphere. So thanks for telling the story. I I think my approach, like I can I ask some questions? I like to call it coaching because I'm not a licensed therapist. so w do you do you know what the barrier was or what stopped you from naming what you wanted or needed?

Christian Brim (09:53.447)
Absolutely. We'll turn this into a therapy session. It'll be great.

Christian Brim (10:00.128)
Fair enough.

Christian Brim (10:10.415)
yeah, so no no no no I I I think I think the more I can share, the better it is for me and for everybody else. And I and I I did share it in the article, so I'm not I'm not coming up with anything that I haven't already disclosed. the the problem with me i was that I had a very deep

Kurt Bush (10:13.802)
And you don't have to answer. I'm sorry. I you can always say no.

Kurt Bush (10:25.644)
Mm.

Christian Brim (10:38.837)
sub-programming that ran that acted as an insurance policy for my ego. And what that narrative was was that if I was productive, if I was useful, I couldn't be abandoned.

Kurt Bush (11:00.15)
Yeah. Yep.

Christian Brim (11:01.117)
Right. And the way that manifested for decades was more. Like, so so if if the premium payment was made, if I make more premium payments, that means that I'm I'm good for even future years, right? And so it was this default of just grow, right?

Kurt Bush (11:20.896)
Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (11:27.175)
And on the surface, I would have told you, and and and I think I think practically in some ways, I I had designed the business around what I thought I wanted. I I it did provide a a financial lifestyle for me and my family. It gave me a lot of time freedom with my family. I got to grow my children and participate in their lives and have great relationships with them as adults.

So on the surface, it wa it it was what I wanted, yeah. and I would have said that it was what I wanted. But when when the kids are all gone and you know it's kind of like, okay, what's next? the the that wasn't a sufficient answer, right? and there was a there was a little bit of, well not a little bit, a significant amount of it that

Kurt Bush (11:57.409)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Bush (12:13.354)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (12:23.741)
was I don't want to say what I want because going after it risks what I have.

Kurt Bush (12:31.104)
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

Christian Brim (12:31.837)
Yeah. so there there were several several things that contributed to that, but that that's the bulk of them.

Kurt Bush (12:42.112)
Yeah. Yeah, thanks for saying that. do you one more question, then I think I have some some resonance. d do you know like what where else would this show up for you? Like are there other places in your life where this same mentality would show up where where there was this barrier that would keep you from naming what you need or want?

Christian Brim (13:01.663)
Well well, that sounds like a ridiculous question. Of course. which is very interesting because when I start I I've worked with the same coach for six years now. when I started with Jacob, which is an interesting aside, he used to do marriage coaching with his wife. He wa he was an Orthodox rabbi before he became an executive and business coach.

Kurt Bush (13:04.427)
Ha ha.

Christian Brim (13:32.746)
When I came on with him, I didn't hire him. He came along with another service provider, which was weird. they said, you know, yeah, you get to work with us, but you also get to work with Jacob while you're working with us. And I'm like, okay. and I at that point in my life, my marriage was in crisis. And we spent probably six months.

Talking about marriage. We didn't talk about the business in my coaching sessions, right? And I'll never forget the question he asked, which was so profound in context of the marriage. He asked me, Well, what do you want? What what what do you want? What do you need from the marriage? And I'm like, what kind of question is that?

Kurt Bush (14:06.816)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (14:33.107)
Right? Like I I mean it had never risen to the level of consciousness. But in reflecting on it and asking it and getting it clear, okay, this is what this is what I want, he said, Great, now go tell your wife. And I'm like, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, hold on, hold on. and I had this conversation sitting down with my wife in the middle of turmoil and and strife, and I said, Okay.

Kurt Bush (14:33.706)
Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (15:02.963)
This is what I need from you.

And then I said, What do you need from me? And she looked like a deer in the headlights. She's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, what do you need from me? Right? And at that point, we'd been married 20 plus years. and you know, that conversation had never been had by either one of us.

Kurt Bush (15:20.864)
Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Bush (15:33.546)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (15:33.63)
And it took her several weeks to even like contemplate it and come back to me with an answer. but absolutely. And I'll just add this codicle here, that what what that showed me, you know, a long time ago, five years ago, six years ago, was that you you don't have business problems or or personal problems. You have problems that that that emanate from you.

Kurt Bush (15:38.721)
Yeah.

Kurt Bush (15:59.852)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (16:02.643)
And they just show up. And I never would have made the connection that the problems that I had in my marriage were the same ones that I was having in the business, even to the point that, even to the point that it it w last year I didn't see that I I wasn't clear and never asked for what I wanted from my wife.

was the same problem I was sitting with last year, right?

Kurt Bush (16:35.094)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Christian, I I think that is really why like you said a lot of gold in there. I I I think here here's where I see resonance with people I work with. Two two ways. The first way is I think so many of us lack the ability to answer the question what we need or want and and not because we're bad people, not because we're bad anything, but I I think that that idea of naming what we need or want is

really foreign to us. And I don't know, I live in the Midwest. Naming what you need or want is akin to blasphemy, right? Like th that can be seen as yeah, it can be seen as selfish. It feels selfish. Yeah, yeah. I you know, I think based on your story, we would both agree that it's not that at some point those needs will be met or or those we will find ways to meet those needs, either healthy or unhealthy. so being able to name them and share them feels like

Christian Brim (17:12.04)
A hundred percent.

Christian Brim (17:15.9)
It feels selfish, absolutely.

Christian Brim (17:30.538)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (17:34.558)
the opposite of selfishness. So so that's one way. I I just a and I was the same way. I mean I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I've always done that well. I still don't do it well. but but I see that in a lot of my clients as well. Naming what we need or want is really hard. here's the other thing and you already said it about problems being problems. what I run into is clients who feel stuck or clients who have you know this feeling of failing or the feeling of being an imposter

Christian Brim (18:04.489)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (18:05.255)
No nobody gets up in the morning and goes into work and says, Man, I just I just want to be exhausted today. Or, you know what, I just want to have a failure of leadership again today. You know, nobody's getting up and doing that. The reality is there's something keeping leaders stuck in those places that goes beyond just how do I do my job? There are a million resources that tell leaders how to lead. I mean, there's a million John Maxwells out there that say,

Christian Brim (18:27.221)
Mm.

Christian Brim (18:33.364)
Right.

Kurt Bush (18:34.119)
Here's what a good leader does. but but that all gets undermined by these other things internally. those things like you just said that show up in other places. Our our leadership tactical skills and practical rhythms and those things get undermined and and disrupted by our sort of internal things that we carry into those spaces. my coaching partner will say everywhere we go, there we are. and I think that's it that's so true in leadership.

Because we just carry it in and we'll do the things we always do. And that leads to some of those things that you've shared and it leads to this problem learn leading into this problem and leading into exhaustion and burnout and all those things.

Christian Brim (19:17.273)
It reminds me of the line from ball and chain by social distortion. You can run all your life and not go anywhere, and wherever you go, you're sure to find yourself there.

Kurt Bush (19:29.395)
Yep. A hundred percent. Well said. I I I didn't expect social distortion to show up on a podcast I was on today. I love that.

Christian Brim (19:37.808)
Yeah. It's one of my favorite songs. Yeah. I think the other line in there is is I'm my own worst enemy because every now and then I kick the living shit out of myself. shit shit out of me, yeah. Yes. I okay, so having said all that, I here's what showed up for me is

Kurt Bush (19:49.513)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Christian Brim (20:04.809)
I had head knowledge about a lot of things around leadership and around myself. But what was missing was the acts of doing the work to break out of that pattern, right? And I substituted I substituted the head knowledge for the action. Talk about that.

Kurt Bush (20:23.701)
Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Bush (20:30.953)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Christian, it feels like we're reading each other's mail. This feels almost scripted. it's not. so we we believe and subscribe into into something we call well, it we didn't make it up. We're borrowing it. Everything is borrowed on some level, something called the transformational model of learning. that says that transformation or growth or learning or anything like that does not come from information alone, because if it did

Christian Brim (20:37.813)
I I just not.

Christian Brim (20:48.522)
Yes.

Christian Brim (20:58.526)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (20:59.571)
We would already be transformed and changed. if knowing how to be a better leader was all I needed, I would already be a better leader. but here I am on a Friday feeling kind of busy and rushed, knowing this isn't how I want to be. so what what we believe then is that in addition to information, there needs to be some sort of action that we can try that disrupts other patterns of behavior, disrupts other ways of being.

Christian Brim (21:02.505)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:08.105)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:15.647)
Mm.

Kurt Bush (21:29.105)
but then also there's a third step that says we have to reflect on that and and see how it worked. you know, it's it's one thing to get into action, but it's another thing to to get into action and then say, How did that how did that go? How did that feel? You know, if I'm trying on a suit coat, if I put it on, I I have to look in the mirror and say, Is this the right one? so we think not just information has to lead to action in practice, but then also has to have this kind of

Christian Brim (21:32.553)
Mm. Yeah.

Kurt Bush (21:55.242)
reflection to say, how did that go? Did that work? Did it have the outcome I wanted? If not, then I go back to the beginning. I get some different information, different practice, reflect on that. And we can do that over and over and over.

Christian Brim (22:07.827)
Yeah, and I I find I find people I mean, myself for a long time, wrote another Substack article about that, of of being medicated to avoid emotion. pe people people don't want to feel negative emotions, right? I mean that's normal. and all of the different ways we go to avoid that,

Kurt Bush (22:20.767)
Kurt Bush (22:26.697)
Yeah. Yep.

Christian Brim (22:36.469)
But I I had a conversation just this morning with my CFO. And we'd had a conversation yesterday afternoon. And I didn't like the way it went. And and I didn't really think about it. But I woke up this morning and I had kind of had a fresh perspective. And and so I called him and I said, Look, the conversation we had didn't really go the way I it did it didn't sit with me, right? and I said, When I when I initially reached out to you,

How did that make you feel? And he proceeded to start telling me again what he thought. And I said, hold on, no, no, hold on a second. I I know I know what you you said about what you think. How did that make you feel? And he paused for a second and he said, Well, it it honestly it it it frustrated me and it confused me. I'm like, bingo, right?

Kurt Bush (23:08.107)
Hm.

Kurt Bush (23:21.205)
Yeah.

Kurt Bush (23:32.139)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (23:35.262)
And we had this 30 minute conversation. And the reality was that I didn't know what I was needing from him and asking him, right? We just kind of got caught in this loop, this feedback loop. And so I realized that I really needed something else from him. And so I asked him and I said, can you give that? And he goes, I think I can, and I, and I'll try.

Kurt Bush (23:45.834)
Yeah.

Kurt Bush (23:49.226)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (24:04.341)
But it was uncomfortable for him because I was pushing him into a new space. I I'm like, I I I'm no longer wanting just information. I want your advice, right? And I don't want you to kill tell me what you think I want to hear. I want your your opinion, like w right. but the it all started with the question of feeling. Like, how did that make you?

Kurt Bush (24:10.665)
Yeah.

Kurt Bush (24:19.093)
Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (24:33.907)
feel. But that people don't start there.

Kurt Bush (24:38.493)
No. I and and I think it's different for everybody. the reason is different for everybody. I I also wonder I mean, I don't know if I can push a little bit and you can you can push back. I I sometimes wonder I mean this is a today wondering. Ten years ago Kurt would have never wondered about this. So I'm I'm learning kind of as we go. I'm building the plane as we're flying it, right? I I wonder what a negative emotion is.

Christian Brim (24:48.607)
Please.

Christian Brim (25:00.405)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (25:05.727)
Like, is there even such a thing as a negative emotion? Or is an emotion just an emotion? Right? Like, is something that stirs in me that that's outside of my control? I imagine that CFO felt frustration not because he chose to feel frustration. like I wonder what that frustration is telling him, or her, I guess maybe you didn't say if it was Amher. you know, like what is that frustration trying to tell him and and is it negative?

Christian Brim (25:28.339)
It's him. It's him.

Kurt Bush (25:35.913)
And why do we assign it a negative? Or can it be something that drives, you know, positive connection, positive momentum forward? I I sometimes don't even know what what to think about the idea of a negative emotion, if that makes sense. And you can push on that if you want.

Christian Brim (25:53.258)
Well, no, I I think I conceptually understand what you're saying, in that that all emotions, negative or or positive, how you know what what label we put to it, are useful. Yeah. but there there's definitely a category, and I would put fear, anxiety, anger, rage, you know, th that are that are in that bucket of negative, right?

Kurt Bush (26:03.592)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Christian Brim (26:23.347)
that that we we avoid. Whereas the the the positive, happy, glad feelings we we don't avoid. Yeah. That would be the distinction is is the avoidance.

Kurt Bush (26:27.091)
Yes.

Kurt Bush (26:35.986)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know do you know the movie Inside Out and Inside Out Too?

Christian Brim (26:46.127)
I have not. Okay.

Kurt Bush (26:47.326)
They're Disney movies. and and they are they're internal family systems one one is what we like to call them. So my partner and I are internal family systems practitioners. And basically here's a a scene that I love that helps kind of capture I think what what we're talking about here. There there's a scene, so in the movie there's one main character and we get to see inside the main character's head, and there's different characters for different emotions. There's joy, there's sadness, there's disgust.

Christian Brim (26:54.857)
Mm.

Kurt Bush (27:16.816)
Anxiety, and each one of those is its own character, exactly like you would imagine. And they they have a like a control room that that's driving the main character, right? and what happens is in the second one of these movies, anxiety gets a hold of the control board and just runs amuck and goes crazy, and the main character gets angsty and all this other like all the things you would imagine. There's a beautiful scene at the end where where the character that plays joy

Christian Brim (27:24.488)
Okay.

Kurt Bush (27:45.355)
Pries the anxiety character away from the control board and says, What are you doing? And anxiety pauses and looks at the character for joy and says, I was just trying to help. And it's just, it's beautiful. And again, these these are movies that are easy to understand. I would recommend them to anybody. I think that's that's what I wonder all the time is. How much of how much of these questions around our emotions and our feelings is is about.

Christian Brim (27:58.356)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Bush (28:14.964)
how we let them drive the bus versus whether or not we should feel them. Right. Or whether we even get a choice to feel them.

Christian Brim (28:21.809)
No, no, it it it's it's a it's a that's a that's a very brilliant point because i fear, for example, is there for a purpose. It's to protect us, right? So it's not bad. i i you know so maybe that's what you were taking umbrage with is this labeling of good or bad. It th I think all of the feelings at some level serve us.

Kurt Bush (28:32.862)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kurt Bush (28:48.712)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (28:49.707)
fear fear is one that absolutely protects us until that protection is actually destructive, right? Like that's that's the thing. And for me, I learned this a long time ago when I was learning how to be an advisor.

Kurt Bush (29:00.222)
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (29:17.215)
Take that term for whatever you mean, want. and the guy that was facilitating this program did this visualization technique that he called releasing. And it was when you have an emotion, a negative emotion, to envision a balloon in front of you that you're holding on a string. And then I want you to let that balloon go, and I want you to watch it.

Kurt Bush (29:18.186)
Okay.

Christian Brim (29:44.236)
you so you you're feeling the emotion. You're feeling it, but you're you're separating it from yourself and you're letting it go. And and then like if you start feeling that again, that's fine. You just do that over and over. But for the longest time I could never do I could do it once or twice, but like never in the moment. And but what it did show me was that I am separate from my emotions. My emotions are not me, which is exactly what you're describing.

Kurt Bush (29:46.45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kurt Bush (30:10.942)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think to like circle back to your original question and I I think so many of us will avoid feeling those things or naming those feelings because we've just had so many years of of attaching shame to them or you know, I I remember early on out of seminary I would feel anger and I would have this immense feeling like, Well, a good pastor wouldn't be angry. How could a good pastor be angry? Right. I I'm also

I'm I'm be seen, not heard, years old, if you if you get what I'm saying there. so I I think there is just a whole generation of us that just don't know how to do, don't know how to feel the feelings and don't know how to hold them in a healthy way without letting them also then just drive the bus, right?

Christian Brim (30:44.913)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (30:59.707)
No, I I mean and that that's that's that's probably the biggest failure I gave my children and I've I've talked to them as adults of like I did not teach you how to emotionally regulate because I didn't know how, right? And and it wasn't it wasn't something I was taught. But I I do think back about like my upbringing and and, you know, all of my friends when we were kids. I mean like w what did you hear? So like w

Kurt Bush (31:13.086)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Christian Brim (31:28.901)
stop crying like the right as as opposed to we're we're getting ready to bring foster kids into our home and part of that training was you know dealing with with kids that have been traumatized and it's it's it's like just being able to say it's okay to be sad it it it's okay

Kurt Bush (31:30.078)
Yes. Yes.

Kurt Bush (31:54.537)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean I I yeah, that resonates so deeply what you said of like, stop crying. Don't be sad. Just be happy. Why are you sad? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I you know, do do you know Brene Brown?

Christian Brim (32:03.974)
Why are you sad?

Christian Brim (32:09.701)
I have read I have been to a couple of her presentations.

Kurt Bush (32:13.828)
She's amazing. And w we look to Brene Brown a lot for things like guilt and shame. And sh she just has you probably know this quote, but she has the quote where she says, People aren't sucking on purpose to piss me off. They're doing the best they can with what they've got. that's true of me. That's true of you. That was also true of my first formation and my family of origin, who didn't know how to tell me anything other than don't be sad. it allows me to get to a little self compassion for me and for my family of origin, but

Christian Brim (32:26.835)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Bush (32:42.462)
Yeah, I I I think over generations, I think that that process and that progress, I think, hopefully it continues to bear fruit, right?

Christian Brim (32:51.177)
Yeah. Or or another one, d y as a kid, you weren't allowed to be angry. Like you you if you couldn't be mad at your parents, you couldn't be mad at the situation, right? Like that. Mm-mm. and and and and you know, I'm I'm envisioning with these fussers kids, you know, 'cause they're gonna be angry and it's like, hey, it's okay. Because it's not about me, right? Like

Kurt Bush (32:56.219)
No.

Kurt Bush (32:59.71)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Bush (33:13.32)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, th there's another analogy that that we like to use in our practice. It's it's the analogy of a beach ball underwater. You ever hold a try to hold the beach ball underwater? if the beach ball's the emotion and I'm telling, you know, if I'm telling a foster kid don't be angry, they're gonna put that beach ball further and further underwater, and at some point that beach ball is going to rush out. Like there is no holding it under there indefinitely. The these emotions, when we try to hold them down, like they are going to come out. The question is, do we wanna help them out or do we want to let them?

Christian Brim (33:23.091)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (33:38.237)
No.

Kurt Bush (33:46.59)
Burst out where they're gonna like splash everybody.

Christian Brim (33:48.091)
Exactly. Exactly. Kurt, how do people find out more about your coaching and your work if they want to learn more?

Kurt Bush (33:58.59)
Yeah, thanks for asking. Our coaching practice is called the Brimstone Coaching Group. yeah. Well, it's I I always I always like to remind people this is not like hellfire and brimstone. the the brimstone butterfly is the longest living butterfly in the world. and we we love the imagery of butterflies being transformed creatures. They're the only living transformed creatures. so yeah, that kind of brimstone, not the other like

Christian Brim (34:03.135)
Yeah, I love that name.

Christian Brim (34:10.875)
okay.

Christian Brim (34:26.602)
I love it.

Kurt Bush (34:27.656)
Like pound on the pulpit kind of brimstone. so brimstone coaching group dot com is our website. That's the easiest way to kind of see who we are and see what we do and how and why.

Christian Brim (34:29.213)
Okay. Okay.

Christian Brim (34:38.825)
Beautiful. Listeners will have that link in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember you are not alone.