When You're Grieving Your Child

Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief. 

In this episode, Brad, Colleen, and Erin talk about grieving a child and the many ways a family changes after the death. Partner relationships shift as each person finds their own way to heal. Sibling dynamics change as each child's role in the family is reshaped. Future milestones are grieved as families face the loss of what will never be.

The loss of a child is a loss of a piece of yourself. Today, we discuss the importance of honoring your own grief while embracing the differences in how each family member mourns. We also explore the nuances of grief and mourning, emphasizing the need for expression and companionship during the healing process. 

Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.  

Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L

For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org 

Transcript

Parental Grief Support Through Loss

Gary Shriver 0:00

Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a podcast dedicated to parents living through loss while supporting their child. Let's meet the team.

Erin Nelson 0:11

I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at Jessica's House.

Colleen Montague 0:15

Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program director for Jessica's House and a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Brad Quillen 0:21

Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When Grief Comes Home.

Gary Shriver 0:25

This podcast goes along with a book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child, while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers. Now let's go to the team as they share grief resources and coping skills, heartfelt stories and insights to support parents as they raise children who are grieving. Together, you'll find strength as we learn to live with loss and find ways to heal.

Brad Quillen 1:01

Well, hello, hello, it's Brad from Jessica's House. Today, we're talking about grieving your child and the many ways you and your family will face changes after the death. You are left holding the enormity of all you will face with them missing from your future. Well, hello, Colleen, Erin, it's good to see you guys today. And for those of you listening, today we're talking about when your child dies. It's a hard topic and so, just so you know that, that's where we're headed today. But as we talk about that, there's a number of things that we're going to get into today. But, Erin, I was going to ask you and I didn't tell you this in our pre-show meeting but could you just tell us a little bit about your son Carter, who's going to kind of bring us into talking about when you have the death of a child. Tell us a little bit about that guy.

Erin Nelson 1:44

Oh, I'll tell you a little bit about Carter. Yes, I would love to, and we're coming up on what we call in our family his heaven day and just thinking about him. You know Carter came into our life and, as so many of our listeners know just my story of losing my husband, Tyler, and also my mom, and then I got remarried to Bryan and Carter. We also lost our first baby, and so Carter came into our life after a really long season of loss and he was just pure joy, like truly. It was just a time of my life and a time of our life where we were just so glad to just have an addition to our family. At that time, we had Cody was already almost seven I think and Cassie was turning 10. And so it was just so nice to have some just this little baby, and I'll never forget just he was a real bright light and so he was just a lot of fun. He was funny, like right away. We noticed when he was a toddler that when we I remember one time, Bryan and I, were just sitting on like his room floor on the carpet and he did something and we both laughed at him and then he noticed that we were laughing and then he did it like again and again and that kind of was him. He was an entertainer, he was just a lot of fun and he grew up to love music and golf and cars and he just brought just a lot of life.

Erin Nelson 3:30

We um, when we describe Carter, we have this word gusto, because no matter what he did, he just brought gusto. From the moment he was born he had a lot of enthusiasm. So no matter what he was talking about it could have been like a taco. It's just that he was very, very excited. And so I would come home from work and he would be making some concoction, something for dinner and just say, mom, mom, I just wait till you taste this. And he did smash burgers and just all kinds of things, and so he just was fun. He was just so much fun, yeah.

Brad Quillen 4:08

And I I think of Carter, and we've been involved with you guys and our families together for years and but always something with his hands. That was one of the things that I'd look back and think about whether it was working on cars or playing golf or guitar or piano like he was always doing something with his hands and you say smash burgers, which is hilarious because you're out barbecuing.

Erin Nelson 4:26

But yeah, he always was. He had it all the ideas and he woke up with a purpose and just forever he just had a lot of energy and so he always was walking through the house and making a plan and doing just really fun, whether he was building something or making something, he was just...

Brad Quillen 4:45

Tearing something apart.

Erin Nelson 4:46

Right, he was really good at that. Yeah, so he was, he was just a real gift yeah.

Brad Quillen 4:53

And, as you said, the anniversary is coming up here in a couple of weeks as we sit together, and that brings you back to some of those intense feelings, too, when a child dies yeah, it really does.

Erin Nelson 5:06

Um, my son Cody, he said, mom, I can feel it, you know I would. Just, we were at soccer on Saturday and he said, sure can feel it in the air when it's getting closer. And yeah, I think you just feel that moment, like you start feeling that time. Or you got the phone call and you start feeling it in the air and yeah, you, just in just those, the intensity of your feelings can really increase.

Brad Quillen 5:34

I've heard that from a lot of parents over the years that there's physical changes that they feel coming on.

Erin Nelson 5:41

Yeah.

Brad Quillen 5:42

And there's one gentleman I think of that's volunteered here a number of years and he'll talk about that and it's been 25, 26 years. His son was killed in a car accident and still we'll talk about that the middle of September through almost Thanksgiving. It's just different.

Erin Nelson 5:57

Really tough. Yeah, absolutely, and just all those feelings intensify and, yeah, you just feel it so much more. And it really speaks to your love for them and how much they're missing from you.

Brad Quillen 6:10

They're a piece of you.

Erin Nelson 6:11

Absolutely.

Brad Quillen 6:12

And Colleen, you lead a group here for adults that have lost a child and you hear that in group often just that desire and that longing and that deep want to find.

Colleen Montague 6:30

Absolutely, just the sheer pain that they're in is just palpable in the room and shared pain, for that matter. I notice a lot of anger is there too. Yeah, just so mad that they're gone and that they couldn't be saved. A lot of times there's the fear of just not wanting to forget them and by that, the specifics of them, just what they sounded like when they talked, what their laugh sounded like, their smell or their touch. They're so scared they're going to forget it. And one time a mom said you know, I can tell you all the stories and I can show you pictures or videos, but you will never know the true essence of them. Yeah, I can never share that with anybody, I can't explain that. And she said I feel so bad for you because you'll never know that. You know, speaking to me, that's so true.

Brad Quillen 7:19

Yeah, and there's those moments where we're just in those lows and the dark and nothing seems to help. Just I try this or I try that and it feels like the repeated. Well, that didn't help, that didn't make me feel different.

Healing Through Grief and Mourning

Erin Nelson 7:34

Yeah, I think the intensity of losing a child. It's an experience where you just want a little bit of relief from your pain and you search for that. And I remember after Carter died, we had an Airbnb that we ran over by the ocean and so we would drive to that to go restock supplies or whatever it would be, and I would just think, well, maybe if I get a little closer to the ocean I'll feel better. And it didn't help, and I then I would say, well, maybe I just need to go home and I would get home. And it didn't help and there was really so little that I could do to find relief other than maybe just expressing and crying. And yeah, I just, I remember so many times.

Erin Nelson 8:18

I remember one time where I just drove to the grocery store and I just felt so dark in my soul, like it was such a pressure, it was such a, it was just like you're almost falling, like that's all I can describe. It's like you're just kind of in a free fall, and I just felt this, like feeling like that. And I went to the grocery store and I remember just like looking in the aisles, like maybe there's something here that would make me feel better, like my favorite chip or like some chocolate or something. And I remember standing in line at the checkout and just kind of wiping my tears, you know, with my jacket sleeve, and driving back. And when I got back there was a friend waiting for me on my porch and I walked up the steps and she just like just held me so close and just let me cry and really looked at my eyes and somehow I just knew she was just witnessing that and I did find relief in just someone else's embrace and sometimes just knowing that you have somebody else that's holding that with you can really help. I was surprised how much just hugs physically gave me strength and how I really needed that like never before.

Brad Quillen 9:34

Colleen, we talk about this idea of companioning at Jessica's House a lot, and can you share a little bit about that because, Erin, that's kind of what you're speaking about, that that friend that was on your porch didn't try and change it, couldn't fix it, just sat with you in it and was present to the dark and the ugly and all the feelings.

Colleen Montague 9:54

Exactly, and what you're speaking to, Erin, is just that that the only remedy for your pain in that moment was just to grieve and for you being held up literally by your friend and then also just leaning in to whatever felt right or feels right, and so that can be just screams, anger, moaning or crying.

Erin Nelson 10:18

Yeah, I think what we're searching for is home, you know, and everything feels so different. We just want back what we had and that energy of not being able to feel settled and not being able to find home. It feels so bad and the only way to move that energy of that emptiness is just to yeah, like you said, is to get it out of your body and cry and, like you said, express the anger. I remember just this very like hot emotions, like even just seeing other people with their kids and, you know, having kids go through milestones that were similar to what Carter would have done, and being just mad and like I don't want anything to happen to my friend's kids, of course, but like just thinking like he should be here, you know and you live with that of just that longing for them and just that longing for home that you'll never have again.

Colleen Montague 11:19

And to force your mourning to be neat and tidy is an unachievable thought. It's just, it's messy and it's big and it's ugly and scary, but that is what you may need in that moment.

Erin Nelson 11:33

And just to admit like see, I just said it out loud, like I'm jealous.

Brad Quillen 11:37

You just said the word mourning. What do you mean by the word mourning? Because some people might've heard that and thought what's that? Grief? Isn't that just grief?

Colleen Montague 11:44

Yeah, that's a good point, Brad. We talk about the difference between grief and mourning. Those are two words we use interchangeably as a society, but they're actually very different. Grief is the way that your body feels after a death. It's just automatic responses that your body feels. And then mourning is what you do with those feelings and the energy of grief in your body, how you get that and move that out of your body, those expressions of grief. And so that is where the tears and the fits or the cries out or talking being held by somebody walking it out, all the different things that we talk about here in the podcast that those are acts of mourning and that is what can bring true healing to you in a moment. You'll never be healed, of course, but it can help you in those, in those times.

Brad Quillen 12:37

And some days you need to scream and yell and kick and stomp and some days you need to cry and be hugged. I can think of years and years ago. I had a mom and group that used to I may have told the story used to drive around the block in her car and she'd play heavy metal music and she would drive around the block screaming after her son had died. And one day she was driving around the block and noticed that people were now watching her that never would watch before when she would do, and most of the neighborhood knew what had happened. And she told the story that she didn't realize when she was driving around her block, when people were watching her, she didn't realize that the windows were down in the car and so she was screaming around the neighborhood and people were coming out to make sure she was okay and they were very gracious and supportive of her.

Brad Quillen 13:21

She said so I had to find a new neighborhood to drive and go scream, but that's what she needed, and I first I was like screaming, okay, that's, that was her avenue of letting it out. And even we see that you know, within the first few days of the death too, there's a lot of screaming and moaning of that protest.

Erin Nelson 13:41

I think it can go on because you know, sometimes you don't even, there are no words, there's nothing you can do. But sometimes you just stand in your very own kitchen and just have there's nothing, just except for like moans and cries and just getting whatever you can out of your body. Getting whatever you can out of your body, and sometimes you just really feel like you might not be able to breathe again because you're having such long out breaths and it's like just getting that out, that all that's inside of you. Like you said, Colleen, with the grief and then letting that come out of you.

Brad Quillen 14:16

You talked about not being able to breathe and there's people that in group have said this over the years, so let's put this on the table the physical elements that happen with the body and, Colleen, Erin, you and I we've all seen this in group with adults over the years.

Colleen Montague 14:28

Absolutely, we have. I've heard so many parents in my adult groups talk about needing to go to the doctor in the months following the death because they're having heart pains, chest pains and really they're concerned that they've got some heart troubles now and they're not they usually don't. It's actually, it's grief, it's really literally a broken heart and just the sheer pain coming through in that way somatically, how we feel that in our body, the tightness within our bodies, our shoulders, just the feelings in our stomach just in knots or nauseous or emptiness.

Erin Nelson 15:05

Yeah, and just that deep weariness, just being so tired and something that we talk about and I know we've said before but kind of that idea of drinking, you know, just making sure you're staying hydrated and making sure that if you do get sleepy, to try to take a nap, and really taking extra good care of yourself. And we have an acronym that we use around here, which is just DEER, which is just drink and then make sure you're eating just a little bit of food and just a walk. So the next E is exercise and then rest, and so whatever we can do to take really good care of ourself in a practical way can ease some of those symptoms, because sometimes, just even with like a headache, you may have needed a little more hydration and because our thirst mechanism is suppressed when we're in grief and in trauma. So we have to really actually drink even when we may not feel thirsty.

Brad Quillen 16:08

Colleen, you just brought up a word that we didn't talk about. But I want to ask a question about a somatic. But it also goes along with something. Erin, you said earlier today to me that with Carter's Heaven Day coming here in the next few days and weeks, that there's a different feel, and so the body remembers and I'm going to use the words of body keeps score, and let you guys kind of talk about not only the somatic thing that happens to us physically a little bit, but also the season when it comes back around.

Colleen Montague 16:36

Yeah, it goes without saying that the loss of a child is traumatic. That is one of the most incredible traumas somebody can experience, and our bodies are really affected when we experience trauma, and so trauma comes back, not necessarily as a memory, but a body sensation, and so we can learn to start to listen to our bodies to recognize those cues that pop up when our body is possibly, you know, screaming for attention, so to speak.

Brad Quillen 17:15

So true.

Erin Nelson 17:16

I just think about even how our body can be a resource and after a trauma and you know some people that have experienced a parent who has experienced the death of their child may notice that maybe they are even shaking, like after that happened and our bodies can really take care of us in that way, and there are ways that we can discharge trauma out of our body, and sometimes you may notice that you're shaking, just not to be overly concerned. If your nervous system is taking care of itself in that way, it's really a way that you, your body, comes back to feeling calm again is to shake and to have some of these sensations, and so we can really look to our bodies to keep us safe.

Brad Quillen 18:02

You say that we have a mutual friend that will often rock in meetings. It's just her way of just being in the moment and present but being attuned to what's going on. But it's also a comfort for her too.

Navigating the Grief Journey Together

Erin Nelson 18:15

Absolutely, and just anything that we can do to go side to side to just find comfort in our bodies. It's so important that we start to learn what we need to feel safe on a sensory level. I remember having a weighted blanket after Carter died and eating some of my favorite foods and just being able to really take good care of myself in my physical space and knowing that I needed that a lot.

Colleen Montague 18:44

And over time, you're going to learn what works for you, and there's some, there's some power in that. You know you had to try those things on, so to speak. You know, will this weighted blanket help? Will these snacks help? Yes, and then I'm sure you found some things that don't work for you, and so you're relearning yourself, this new version of you, which is now this person who's living in this humongous loss.

Brad Quillen 19:08

Erin, I was going to ask you, we kind of touched on it, but just to make it clear, the only way or remedy for this pain of losing your child is to grieve, and people have to go through that.

Erin Nelson 19:20

Yeah, there's no way to get to the other side. And I always think about what Gary Sitzer says and he, after he lost his child and his wife and his mom, he talked about going into the darkness, like walking into the east to find the sunrise, but he had been trying to kind of go towards like stay in the light. We have to turn and go and we have to allow ourselves to go into that darkness. And I remember, after Carter died, I did feel like I said like I was in that free fall and I texted a friend and said I feel like I'm falling into the darkness and she texted back you know the darkness will hold you and knowing that I could trust the grief process, I've learned to really trust the grief process, if you go into it, you surrender to it. It, in my experience, just mimics so much of nature, with waves, with the storms that come. You know rain never lasts forever. Right, it never lasts forever. And so, as you, just trusting the break in the weather, trusting that you won't always feel like you do in this very moment, you will get to the next moment and you may not really think you very moment, you will get to the next moment and you may not really think you will, but you will.

Brad Quillen 20:44

And I know you were, Erin, you're speaking of seasons, but some people it's moment by moment. You know, 10 minute block by 10 minute block, that that are listening today too.

Colleen Montague 20:53

Yeah, and as time goes on and you face these little moments again and again, you're really building new muscles with which to hold this pain. And, Erin, you've said before they were never muscles you wanted to build, but you are and so you'll be able to hold it as time goes on. But it takes that care and that intention of yourself along the way.

Erin Nelson 21:18

It's so true and like when you're talking about holding, I think about that we just do carry grief, you know, forward. It's not like we get over it, there's no closure, but we're carrying it with us. And I heard someone talk about just how their parenting their child who's no longer here, just as much as they are their other children, because just as much of that energy is divided, so, as they're feeding and nurturing and, you know, taking care of their child's everyday needs, that you know the child who's living, they're spending just as much of that energy with that love that they have, that have that the grief represents their love and that's going towards their child that they're missing so much.

Brad Quillen 22:07

Yeah, and it is a friend of ours, Ron, that volunteers here at Jessica's House and I've learned so much from him over the years. His son died quite a few years ago and he shared an example of when his son died. It felt like a boulder was on his chest and he talks about. I couldn't breathe and I had tightness in my chest and all these things and as he grieved the boulder got smaller and smaller over time. Nothing immediate, nothing overnight, you know, but it took quite a few seasons to walk through and years to grieve and work through it. But he said, I still have that boulder every day and it sits on my chest. It's not as big, but it's a part of me and it's an everyday part of me.

Erin Nelson 22:48

Yeah, and I've heard him talk about that and he says sometimes it gets so small he can put it in his pocket.

Brad Quillen 22:53

Yeah, it even goes with him.

Erin Nelson 22:55

Yeah, and it just takes him with them, and so you never know how, like what, the size of that rock will be right?

Brad Quillen 23:02

Well, Erin and Colleen, thank you, thank you, thank you. This is so good, so hard, but so good to have this conversation with the both of you, and we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back. We're going to talk a little about some of the dynamics and the changes that happen in our family relationships when there's been a death of a child.

Gary Shriver 23:17

Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center located in California's Central Valley since 2012. We provide free peer support for children, teens, young adults and their families grieving a loss. The When Grief Comes Home podcast goes along with the book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers and if you need grief-related support, please visit jessicashouse. org to download our free resources and be sure to follow Jessica's House on social media, and if you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to explore in a future episode, just send us an email to info@ jessicashouse. org.

Navigating Loss and Family Dynamics

Brad Quillen 24:09

Welcome back. And as we come back, talking about when you've lost a child, one of the things we hear often here at Jessica's House as facilitators, is I'm asked how many children do I have, how do I respond to that? What do I say? So, Erin, Colleen, what's your advice to that question?

Erin Nelson 24:26

We know this comes up so much at Jessica's House when parents are asked that question and it's so hard and I think it always takes you a little off guard, no matter how many times you've answered it. And I think for parents we have these conversations, like it may be different every time, kind of depends on how you're feeling in that moment and how much you want to share. And sometimes, like for our family, like I'll just say four and kind of end that, but then some people will ask more questions oh, where do they live? And so sometimes you can go into it a little bit, you can kind of gauge the conversation. Sometimes you could wrap it up a little bit, and I had a mom tell me recently that she likes to say I have four, and if somebody pushes and then she'll say you know, yeah, one of them isn't living, and if the person is like oh, I'm so sorry, she's like you know what I really like to talk about him, and so just to give that person that kind of awkward moment for you know that can be just to say hey, thanks for asking me that and I like to talk about him. Other times it might be really hard to talk about and so being able to just even say, you know, whatever it is, that you feel in that moment that maybe you just want to say to because you only have two with you at that time and you don't want to go into it and it's okay.

Brad Quillen 25:49

And so, whatever it is, but kind of thinking ahead of time on how you want to answer that question, I'm so glad you brought up the fact of when you respond with one's no longer living or one's in heaven, awkward dynamic that just got introduced into the conversation that you were having and you can see the discomfort, I'm assuming, in other people when you have to say those kinds of things and so just to be aware of that and have that line I think is great.

Erin Nelson 26:12

Yeah, just to think about that. And you know, and I'm also thinking, you know, for our listeners today, and maybe that was just it was, it was their only child and maybe they get asked that question how many children do you have?

Erin Nelson 26:26

And maybe they don't. You know they no longer have their child and so you know what does that mean for them. When they just when you, lost your only child and that can be really hard because you know just finding support for that and thinking about you know what that means for your family you lose so much of your future because of as you think about grandchildren and I know parents here at Jessica's House have talked about like all that they've lost for their future when they lost their only child, whether that's weddings that they were looking forward to, graduations, and that's really hard.

Brad Quillen 27:07

There is that being robbed of the future piece that comes in when we have a child that's died and, Colleen, that comes up in group often. As I said a little bit earlier in the podcast, that you lead a group that's for those parents that have had the deaths of a child.

Colleen Montague 27:20

I was thinking when you were talking, Erin, just about how the dynamics of the family shift so much after the death of a child. Just among the sibling order with your other living children, you know, the one that maybe was the middle child is now the oldest, what that looks like. Or maybe the one that was the youngest is now the oldest and the only in the family. And do you consider yourself a family of four still? Or is it a family of three? And there's no right or wrong answer, but we're just posing all the different shifts in identity that you're probably going through right now and what we've heard from other families too.

Brad Quillen 27:59

Well, everything changes when that happens the rhythm of mornings getting out the door with school and all those things, and maybe it was the kiddo that helped get kids moving, or it was the one that was behind, or the position of who sits where in the car, just all those things change when there's a death and those family relationships and dynamics change.

Colleen Montague 28:18

Yeah, and the energy of your home is different. You know, Erin, you talked about with Carter like the gusto is that's kind of gone in your family right now.

Erin Nelson 28:27

Yeah, and he really did add so much spark and so we noticed even right, Brad.

Brad Quillen 28:34

Spark is one word.

Erin Nelson 28:35

Yeah, and something that we noticed, because you know my daughter, who was 17 at the time, she was just naturally quiet and how dinners changed, and he was always the one that would bring up a subject that we always, you know, would kind of go around the table and talk about, and it would always be something controversial or something kind of more exciting to talk about. And we just noticed how much just the tenor of the home changed because it just got real quiet, and how much different it is.

Brad Quillen 29:11

Hey, Colleen, a minute ago we talked about things that are coming down the future and you were speaking to something in our pre-show meeting, about something parents don't look forward to. That you've learned out of your sibling loss groups.

Navigating Grief in Your Partnership

Colleen Montague 29:22

We hear so often about how hard anniversary dates are those approaching, whether it was the anniversary of the death or maybe the birthday. But another thing that is really scary for parents is when their other living children are nearing the age that their other child was when they died. And so one mom said that her child died at eight years and four months old and her other child was turning eight soon, and she said I just have to get past that eight year four month mark and then I can breathe. But that was looming for her, and she had experienced it already with her other child too.

Brad Quillen 30:01

There's so many dynamics that change when we've had a death of a child and we've talked about those things that are focused around the child and some of the changes. But, Erin, there's a lot of changes and things that look different between husband and wife and spouse, and all those things after one of your children has died.

Erin Nelson 30:18

When a child dies, the dynamics with your relationship with your spouse or a partner can be really different and everybody has a different personality and a different way to heal and so within sometimes a marriage and just to speak from my own life with after Carter died like Bryan, after Carter died, Bryan needed a lot of friends, he needed a lot of people around him and he needed to talk a lot and have that energy. And I remember him just like sitting outside around a campfire really and just having his buddies over and he really needed that. And I just wanted to be in Carter's room, I wanted it to be quiet, I just needed very, very close friends or family with me and I needed just a lot of time to just be by myself. And so so much of the dynamics and we've heard just different ways that people heal. I think some of the guidelines or just advice that I've heard from people right away after a child dies is to just give each other just that grace that you're going to do it differently. Something else that I notice happens is and we hear this in group is that one person has really wrestled through a certain time of their grief and maybe they've just had a good cry and they're just feeling temporarily just some relief, and they may throw out this idea like hey, maybe we could go to dinner tonight. And the other person, the other parent, is like there's just no way I could ever even think about going out right now and just the thought that not only are you going to do it differently, but you'll be feeling different all the time, and so as your grief kind of hits you at different times, you have to also kind of navigate that as well and give each other the space that you might need at that moment.

Brad Quillen 32:29

And we all react to pain differently.

Erin Nelson 32:31

We all react to pain differently, and so it's so unique for each person, and it changes from moment to moment, and so that's why family dynamics can be so tricky after someone dies.

Brad Quillen 32:45

I can imagine just driving down the road there's different things that would bring up emotion and parents as they're both riding in the same car because it's a different relationship, and again they see something that reminds them of their child that maybe doesn't remind the other of their kiddo.

Erin Nelson 33:01

Yeah, and being able to communicate that, just to say I can't do that right now.

Brad Quillen 33:06

Yeah.

Erin Nelson 33:07

Or I really need to do this right now and to allow each other. You know, it's like it's almost like a dance that you have never wanted to do, right, but it's like you're not holding on too tightly, you're just like letting each other go a little bit to go and individually grieve and do it differently, as you need to.

Colleen Montague 33:29

Also being aware that you're surrounded by a family who's grieving your spouse is grieving, your kids are grieving, but making sure that you still have the space to do so yourself. I think we can easily get caught up in caring for everybody else, but it's still so important to go into that space for yourself as well.

Brad Quillen 33:51

And, as you say, going into different spaces. It makes me think of when, as parents, we get back into a little bit of rhythm and getting out. It's hard to see others or even family members that have kiddos the same age or were doing similar things that your kid used to do, and that's a hard feeling and there's a lot of judgment on ourselves about why I should be excited for them. But yet it just hurts and you don't want to maybe be there.

Erin Nelson 34:19

I think watching kids your child who died's age grow up and meet these milestones, and how bad it can feel to watch that happen and you would never wish harm on anybody, obviously, but it's just like, why do they, you know, why do they get to live and do all these things that my child didn't? And so that's really hard and to just be able to express that. And I had a parent tell me one time that her friends and family stopped inviting her like to the birthday parties because her child died and even though the birthday parties were so painful and it was so hard to be there, she still wanted to be invited, just to be invited. And so it's also you can have other people that are playing this protection game so that they won't add any more pain to you, but then it actually intensifies your pain because you feel more alone, you feel different and so being able to teach your community what you need like please still invite me when you see me, give me a hug and tell me you love me, just keep entering, and it is hard for me, like you can put it out there, but you still need your community.

Brad Quillen 35:35

ut it safe to say that jealousy is a real piece of that?

Erin Nelson 35:38

Yeah, I think jealousy is a big part of a grief emotion, right, and it's envy, it's jealousy, it's the unfairness of life. It's not fair that their child is living and yours isn't, and being able to speak, that you know why would that be and how confusing that is and why you and you know what really is going on, and so I just think being able to express just feelings about the injustice of it all.

Brad Quillen 36:10

Which reminds me that that's why it's so important for us to have support with those that understand and kind of get what it's like to have a loss like that.

Colleen Montague 36:19

That's why our peer support groups are so powerful. Just to be surrounded by others who get it, and you may not have a peer support group in your area, but how can you surround yourself with people who get it, maybe through their own experience, or who are willing to just be a companion during this time and come alongside you? The reality is your spouse or partner, you know they may usually be that person for you that you go to when you're having a hard day, so to speak, but now they're holding that heaviness as well, and so that's the importance of, you can't be each other's everything during this. You probably need to have other people outside. One thing that we shared in our book is the importance of carrying your loss with others. That it's too much to hold alone or just between the two of you, you and your husband and so the importance of seeking support outside of your relationship can help you both feel surrounded by the layers of reinforcement that you need, and that's exactly what you talked about, Erin, with you and Bryan.

Brad Quillen 37:24

Colleen, hearing you talk makes me think of the countless parents we've heard over the years that have lost a child. We'll say something to the effect of I'm trying to make sure everybody else is okay and by the end of the day, there's no time left for me or for us as a husband and wife. What does that look like for? For those that are grieving, that are listening, dads and moms that are, that are listening.

Erin Nelson 37:49

Yeah, to again go back to my story and Bryan and I and how we kind of did this was we would just find times to connect. One easy way was to take a walk in the morning and as we did that, it was sometimes I really didn't want to go, but we just went. You know, and something that we started to practice when we felt just really really bad is we would end our walk with just five things we were thankful for that gratitude yeah, and you know, I, just, I really it's super annoying when people say, oh, just, you know what are you thankful for? Be thankful. And that's not what I'm talking about, because it was truly like just the smallest thing a coffee cup in your hand in the morning. It was like the moon, it was petting your dog. You know, it was the tiniest little thing that we could just say. This is giving me a little bit of strength to get through this and we would try to end that. e else that we did when we were feeling just so overwhelmed and terrible is at the end of the day, we would, of course, start with a walk, but then at the end of the day, we would watch just like five minutes of a comedian and we would lay in bed and all the lights would be off and Bryan would just play it like from his phone for a second and it just was able to shift our mindset because it was so hard to go to sleep, and that really helped us both to kind of get into a little bit lighter mindset, to just grab a couple of hours of sleep.

Colleen Montague 39:27

I'm really glad that we're talking about connecting with your partner during this time and the ways in which that looks like. And you know, one of the ways that you've connected with your partner in the past is through intimacy and sex, and we just want to go there and talk about that and what that looks like now in your marriage, during this time that you're grieving such this huge, huge loss. And so we've heard the gamut of experiences. We've heard from parents that it feels wrong to be intimate. It's like the last and furthest thing from their mind, and then we've also heard it was the form of connection that they needed in the time. And so, just wherever you are with that, we want to encourage you if you can just have that communication with your partner of how you're feeling and asking how they're feeling about it. And there's other ways to be intimate with your partner besides having sex. You know there is just sitting next to each other on the couch watching a show and make sure you're just side by side and touching or holding hands, looking each other in the eye when you're speaking to each other. So what ways can you find right now that feel okay to you as you relearn life again during this time?

Erin Nelson 40:45

Yeah, Colleen, and you know I kind of think about intimacy and I think about how simply just surviving the loss of a child together is its own form of intimacy and you're building something. You both have memories of your child nobody else has and you know them like nobody else does. And so there's so much intimacy and connection between the two of you and also your child. And I also want to speak to some false statistics about bereaved parents, because sometimes we hear things like oh, 90% of marriages of parents who lose a child will end in divorce, and I just want to say that we've seen recent research that actually only 16% of marriages end after the death of a child. So that statistic is actually below the national average and it really points to how relationships can be strengthened when you can, when you go through the trauma of losing a child together and because you shared memories of your child and you're finding ways to get through it, it's always going to be part of your family history and you're building strength together.

Brad Quillen 42:01

Erin and Colleen, I just want to say thanks for this today and for you joining us, and we always want to leave you with the thought that you always will need and should find support, something we all need support for. So thanks for being here today and be sure to visit us at jessicashouse. org for more resources, and there are a number of resources on there for parents that have lost a child. If you have any questions or topic ideas, you can always reach out to us at jessicashouse. org or email us at info@ jessicashouse. org. Be sure to join us for another episode of When Grief Comes Home. We'll be talking about supporting your child after the loss of their sibling. Until then, we wish you well.

Gary Shriver 42:42

Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center located in California's Central Valley since 2012. We provide free peer support for children, teens, young adults and their families grieving a loss. The When Grief Comes Home podcast goes along with the book of the same name, the book When Grief Comes Home, is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers and if you need grief related support, please visit jessicashouse. org to download our free resources and be sure to follow Jessica's House on social media. If you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to explore in a future episode, just send us an email to info@ jessicashouse. org. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time for When Grief Comes Home.