The Complexities of Grief after an Accidental Overdose

Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief. 

In this episode, Brad, Colleen, and Erin discuss the unique challenges families face when grieving the loss of a loved one from an accidental overdose. Families navigate the stigma associated with this type of death, as well as the complex emotions of shame, guilt, relief, and rage.

We share how families often experience years of anticipatory grief while living with someone battling addiction, setting boundaries with love, only to question those decisions after death.

Children also have their own regrets and fears, wondering if they could have prevented the death. It's vital to share the honest truth with them because it creates a foundation for trust and healing. 

Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.  

Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L

For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org 

Transcript

Introduction to Grief After Overdose

Gary Shriver 0:00

Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a podcast dedicated to parents living through loss while supporting their child. Let's meet the team.

Erin Nelson 0:11

I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at Jessica's House.

Colleen Montague 0:15

Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program director for Jessica's House and a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Brad Quillen 0:21

Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When Grief Comes Home.

Gary Shriver 0:25

This podcast goes along with a book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child, while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers. Now let's go to the team, as they share grief resources and coping skills, heartfelt stories and insights to support parents as they raise children who are grieving. Together, you'll find strength as we learn to live with loss and find ways to heal.

Brad Quillen 1:01

Well, hello, hello, it's Brad from Jessica's House. Today we'll be talking about the complexities of grief after an accidental overdose. The grieving process carries many complexities and these can be intensified depending on the nature of the death, especially in the case such as overdose. Here at Jessica's House a number of years ago, Colleen and Erin we all know that we started a group specifically for this topic of accidental overdose. It was about three years ago. We saw just that need and we continued to hear the need from families that they needed a place to just be able to be together because of how the person died. And, Colleen, when you first came on staff, you started in that group on accidental overdose. Could you just kind of walk us through some of the things you've learned over your years of sitting with families that have had someone who's died from an accidental overdose?

Colleen Montague 1:57

I want to start first by saying there are so many different ways to term this type of loss, and we let families teach us, you know how they feel about it. We take a really compassionate stance here at Jessica's House about the person who lived with the illness of addiction and that really it's an illness and it was so much out of their control in a lot of ways but ultimately resulted in choices that led to their death.

Colleen Montague 2:31

And it's so complex for these families that are left holding so much frustration, regrets, guilts, really big emotions about it. And so I want to kind of start back, maybe towards the beginning, with the reality that the relationship with their person who died could have been hard for a long time before they even died. It could have been years that their person struggled with the illness of addiction, and there's so much complexity there before they're even now holding this grief. We have parents in our program that ended up having to get divorced from their partner because of what the illness of addiction brought into the home. We also have families that have told us you know there was a lot of anticipatory grief for years because they were always worried about getting that phone call to confirm that their person had died, and so I just want to really put that out there just how much anticipatory grief these families were holding, this fear that their worst fear could happen, and so grief began long before the person actually died.

Brad Quillen 3:45

Colleen, you're talking about just so many of the complexities and the emotions, guilt, confusion, the whys, and these are just huge emotions. But one of the things that I've learned sitting in groups with how the person died and where there's kind of those struggles of those with homicide, suicide and overdose, and especially with overdose, is looking back at some of the boundaries we put in because we had to and then second guessing ourselves and you've heard that a lot in groups.

Colleen Montague 4:16

Yeah, you really were living in two different places. You lived in the place when they were alive and struggling with addiction, and you may have had to put down some boundaries with love because you cared about them, because you didn't want them to harm themselves. You wanted them to get better. You wanted to help. But there can be a fine line between helping and enabling. You know, and as a parent or as a sibling or as a friend, you may have put down some boundaries. And now here you are, on the other end. You know this person has died now and you're left holding the complex emotions that come with that, and maybe now you feel even guilty about it, or maybe you do feel confident that that was what you needed to do, even though it was so hard.

Brad Quillen 5:01

Yeah, what could I have done differently? And, like you said, as you're going through it, there's no one size fits all in these. It's so different for every family. Every relationship's different, every addiction is different and the depths of it and the emotions that go with it and the things that sometimes lead to addiction. Like all, there's just so many different pieces, so it's not like what worked for one family works for another. Families and parents, we do have to put boundaries in and protect our homes and as those things come about.

Complexities of Overdose Grief

Colleen Montague 5:32

And, like you said, Brad, with how everybody looks at this differently, even just the terminology changes from family to family, and so the terminology that we have learned here is the person may have died by overdose, they may have died by accidental overdose, they may have died by poisoning, especially with fentanyl being such a such a huge issue in our culture right now. I even had a mom once that felt like her. Her son died by suicide because she felt that he knew what he was doing to his body and he did it anyways, and she was so frustrated with that, and so we want to just let them teach us how they term this death, what they feel it was.

Brad Quillen 6:18

And Erin, you've spent decades sitting with families and some of the deaths that you've sat with families have been with this piece of overdose.

Erin Nelson 6:26

Yeah, and as Colleen is talking about this, thinking about this terminology, and you know, I think what I hear from families so much is they have a fierce need and desire to really protect the reputation of the person who died, because how they died didn't really define their essence of who they were.

Erin Nelson 6:47

And when I think about that, I think about, you know, just being able to understand a little bit more about how a brain is affected by the illness of addiction.

Erin Nelson 6:59

And so I remember one sister that talked about her brother who died, who said, you know that her brother was so warm and he was sensitive and he was an artist and there were so many parts of him that were so amazing. And when she would talk to her friends and people would ask her, like how did your brother die? If she said overdose, she felt like they just dismissed him. They just like dismissed his amazingness and that somehow his death wasn't as important as someone else who died from like an illness or like an accident or something like that. So there's that fierce kind of need to say like, wait a minute, like this was my brother and they meant so much to me and I wish you could have seen them. You know when I grew up with them and how much fun we had and all of those kinds of pieces of who they are, and until they were looking for ways to be out of pain or looking for ways to escape this, the hard parts of life, and so that's that's what we hear a lot.

Brad Quillen 8:07

It's that fear of judgment.

Erin Nelson 8:09

It is. It is. You can feel so isolated when you are suffering the loss of something. You know, a stigmatized loss. You know, and I know we see that. You know when we're talking about complications and you know whether that's suicide or homicide or this overdose piece it's. You know you could feel so much shame around how someone died.

Brad Quillen 8:32

It's so interesting you say that because I can't tell you how many people I've heard that from, or the examples of people that are listening right now that they walk through the grocery store and they just feel like they're looked at differently by people that know them because of how the person died, right and again, I've spent a lot of my time with homicide and suicide. But even with that overdose piece, that as soon as someone says, well, how there's a pit in their stomach because there's that stigma around how they died.

Erin Nelson 8:58

Definitely and to Colleen's point, also about beforehand, there may have been relationships that were impacted because of the story that this parent was living in, because maybe it was just it had been, a struggle for a really long time, and so sometimes it's like they may not feel quite that support that they would normally have from other people would, because they have been, you know, living in a situation where maybe their child was stealing from them, or maybe they were in jail at times, or maybe they were on the streets and all of those pieces, and so with that you want to say you know, but they were so much more than that, you know, and we tried everything. And we just heard from a parent who said we threw every resource we had for the very best rehabs, for everything that we could do, and still the illness was too much, you know, and there was nothing we could do. And one mom said like I wish that they had an illness, that I could just take them to the doctor.

Brad Quillen 10:05

Right and get two pills and be better in the morning.

Erin Nelson 10:08

Have a diagnosis, a scan, an operation, something, yeah, but this involved a choice that needed to be made by the person with the illness, and that's the hardest part sometimes is like how they have to join in their healing, and sometimes they don't have the capacity to do so.

Colleen Montague 10:27

Erin, I really appreciate how you are honoring the person who struggled with addiction and for the reason of why people use, you know so much of the time it's to cover up or numb out from pain or just the hardness of life that they're carrying in their body, and so I appreciate that you're honoring that, that we remember the why, for why some people use and struggle with addiction.

Erin Nelson 10:54

Yeah, and I think what we've heard, you know, from people that even survive an overdose, that they say like they wanted to be out of pain somehow and that you know, it really did occupy so many of their thoughts of when they could have it again. And so then they just say, you know, I really don't want to die, I just want to have an escape and so being able to really have compassion on that and how their brain is working in that way, and we don't understand it all and I think, but just knowing that they want to get better, you know they want to get better.

Brad Quillen 11:35

They don't want to feel the pain.

Erin Nelson 11:37

Yeah, they don't want to feel the pain.

Brad Quillen 11:39

And there's pain and grief and what we'd say here at Jessica's House is you have to walk through it and we know some of you that are listening are walking through grief and if you're listening to this podcast, you might have had someone who's died from an accidental overdose and you're in the early stages or you're stuck somewhere in it.

Brad Quillen 11:58

And we just want you to know that there are resources and you can always reach out to Jessica's House at jessicashouse. org and you'll find our contact information on there, but also through this podcast and also through the book when grief comes home, because so many of those folks that come to group feel so isolated because of how the person died but when they come to a place like Jessica's house, they find others that are walking a similar path and that relief that there's hope, because the person across from me in this group has maybe six months down the road or two years down the road and calling. We've watched that for years in the adult groups that we lead, that people get to borrow hope from someone that's across the room from them.

Colleen Montague 12:35

Absolutely, just that they know they're not the only one walking through it. We've said that so many times. Just how powerful that is. I want to add to the words you said, brad, about relief and how that's one of those complicated emotions that families are also holding is, Erin, you talked about how their loved one was in pain, so they might feel a little relief when that person is gone, not because they did not want them in this world with them, but because they know now where they are. You know they're not on the streets or suffering with the illness of addiction. They know they're not in pain anymore in that way and there's relief, but then also shame by feeling that.

Erin Nelson 13:18

Yeah, I talked to someone recently who said for the first time, I don't wonder where they are.

Brad Quillen 13:24

Yeah.

Stigma, Shame and Family Dynamics

Erin Nelson 13:25

And I feel like you know I at least I know they're safe. And yesterday someone said to me you know they're for the first time they're resting and it was just because they had kind of a frantic like need to you know use and it was like they weren't ever really at rest and so they just felt like they were resting and that it brought them comfort. So we've learned so much from the complexity of that of wishing they were here, wishing they would have found a solution and wishing that they had been able to overcome this illness of addiction and then at the same time grateful, like just having that gratitude, that they're safe.

Brad Quillen 14:10

It's almost a peace.

Colleen Montague 14:13

Coupled with pain. It's such a dichotomy, right?

Brad Quillen 14:20

Yes, yeah, that relief is a double meaning word that comes with a side of guilt, shame. Oh my gosh, how can I feel relief if they're not here anymore, right, but there's, there's that peace.

Erin Nelson 14:27

Yeah, and I think another emotion that we hear around Jessica's House is just intense rage yeah.

Erin Nelson 14:35

Yeah, rage that at the dealer. You know, especially if, when, especially as we're seeing this fentanyl poisoning and how it's getting into our area and the crime of it, right and even going into, kind of we have some crossover there, right, even with our homicide group it's like you know who gave them this and how did they get this and why, especially when the with the poisoning it's you know the source of it and really being outraged that it's even here that they have access to it and also just really, really mad at the person who they just wanted them so badly to be able to walk away and, you know, find other solutions and it never happened.

Brad Quillen 15:26

To get better.

Erin Nelson 15:27

Mm-hmm.

Colleen Montague 15:28

I've even heard from families about family members being mad at each other. Maybe the in-laws are mad at the spouse of well, they were living with you. Like, why didn't you do something? Why didn't you tell us about it?

Brad Quillen 15:43

Colleen, I've heard that numerous times. And then what happens sometimes in those pieces when there's the blame of why didn't you do more? You saw it, you were living with it. Then there's kids that get involved with in-laws and the two sides of the family, and then there's even more pain.

Erin Nelson 16:01

And I think you know, just like with, as everybody grieves differently, everybody in a family will view support differently. How do you support someone who is living with the illness of addiction? Everyone has a different idea about what that looks like, and so, as if a person does die of the illness of addiction, then you're kind of left with feeling that I wish I would have done more. I wish you would have done more, I wish you didn't do that, I wish I didn't do this, and so there's a lot of those feelings that are unresolved. So being able to come together and really process that, and there's definitely a lot of looking back.

Erin Nelson 16:41

There's a lot of looking back. Yeah, because, like we said, it's complex and you know there are no easy answers. It's a very complicated illness that even the best physicians don't really even understand. So learning how to treat someone and how to support someone is not easy. So even just the best of families, they're grappling with what to do.

Brad Quillen 17:08

Yeah, it's not like you go to the doctor and you have strep throat and they give you just antibiotics and seven days later, there's there's not everyone pretty much reacts the same to this treatment for addiction.

Erin Nelson 17:18

It's yeah, you just yeah. Every addiction is so different to you.

Brad Quillen 17:23

We were just saying looking back, we, we look back and we we hear stories of people that look back and it's it's out of that heart space of what could I have done differently and the hurt and the pain and the sometimes guilt of did I do enough? But then there's the logic brain side of it that says we did everything.

Erin Nelson 17:43

Right, right

Brad Quillen 17:44

Those don't always equal out and agree our heart and our brain sometimes.

Erin Nelson 17:48

Yeah.

Brad Quillen 17:48

The logic and that just that emotion of it's so painful that they're gone. But I know we, logically, we know why we put boundaries in. We know we tried so many different things. Could be for years or decades.

Erin Nelson 18:01

It's so true. And with grief, no matter what kind of grief it is, there's always guilt involved. We're humans, we have human relationships, we will feel each other and we will be failed from others. And so knowing that guilt is part of grief and also guilt is part of, you know, parenting, guilt is part of being married or having a partner. So there's just guilt is just part of life, right, and regret is part of life sometimes. And knowing that that's part of the grief process, that is one part of the grief process that we've watched soften over time. So, as we have groups, maybe that guilt part is something people are really talking about in the beginning and then over time that softens and so trusting again, like we've said before, that you won't always feel the way you do right now.

Brad Quillen 18:55

I think when you said that guilt is a part of grief, I think that's so true on every age group I've ever worked with at Jessica's house, and if we were to do you know, grief comes with I think guilt would be one of those first words remorse tears anger, you know, the longing to be with them again, Like there's some things we could just list out but I think guilt's right there in the beginning.

Erin Nelson 19:20

Absolutely. I mean, what parent hasn't laid in bed at night and thought to themselves like, oh, I wish I would have read one more story, I wish that I just stayed in the yard for a few more minutes, you know. Or I wish I wouldn't have overreacted when they brought their report card home, whatever it is, or the lizard in from the backyard, the lizard. No, you can't put it in a jar tonight. And yeah, you're just. You know it's not easy to be a parent and guilt comes with that for sure.

Brad Quillen 19:45

Yeah, Erin, it's funny that we start talking about parenting and kiddos because after the break we're going to talk about how do we support our kids through the complexities of this type of grief, that idea and that wrestling through a death from overdose.

Gary Shriver 20:00

Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center located in California's Central Valley since 2012. We provide free peer support for children, teens, young adults and their families grieving a loss. The When Grief Comes Home podcast goes along with the book of the same name. The book when Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers and if you need grief-related support, please visit jessicashouse. org to download our free resources and be sure to follow Jessica's House on social media, and if you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to explore in a future episode, just send us an email to info@ jessicashouse. org.

Supporting Children After an Overdose Death

Brad Quillen 20:51

Welcome back and after the break, we told you we were going to talk about how to support your child through the complexities of grief when there's an overdose death. And, Colleen, I am curious what you would say to those parents that are listening, or those grandparents or caregivers that are listening about what are some of those ways to have some of those conversations and how do we be open and honest and have that dialogue with yet such a hard, hard topic?

Colleen Montague 21:17

Such a hard topic, absolutely. I'll never, ever forget a mom in my group who was really grappling with how to tell her kids the truth, and to the depth, you know, of the addiction their dad struggled with. She said that he was a really fun dad in the eyes of her kids. They just thought he was so fun, and the tricky part about that was, she said, he was so fun when he was using, when he was high. You know, that's what made him such a fun dad in those moments, and so I don't know if I want to shatter that image of him, but also I want them to know the truth, and so just a hard, hard spot to be in to know how much to tell.

Colleen Montague 22:00

But we just go back to what we've said time and time again is that honest, open communication is always the best route. You know, knowing that your child can come to you for the truth sets that foundation up for the future, that they can always come back and ask more questions. When we don't give kids the accurate information first of all, other people know it and can share it with them. They can look it up and so they may find it on their own or, as they learn more accurate information down the road, then they have to open up and regrieve with the new information that they have. So it kind of delays and kind of messes with the grieving process in that way.

Erin Nelson 22:43

Yeah, it's kind of like when you're talking to a child. They have to I know you've said this so much in training, Brad they have to step into a firm foundation that starts with the truth. Right, it's like this is your first step of this is actually what happened. And we're standing here, right here, on this firm foundation, and when you're talking to a child and you know you're starting with, I mean, maybe, some of their questions that they have and you're answering them as honestly as you can, according to their developmental ability, and you are being honest about how addiction and the illness of addiction affects a person's mind and affects a person's body and when they take too much of a substance, that it makes their body stop working. And if you can start there, then you can be there for any questions that they may have.

Colleen Montague 23:43

Erin, you've talked about it as being an invisible disease and I like that terminology for a kiddo. You know to explain to them it's an invisible disease. You know that really takes over your mind and your body.

Erin Nelson 23:56

Yeah, and we talk about how it causes a person to use more substances than is safe for their body, and it can lead in death. So this disease that, just in these different ways that we may not fully understand, is that they have a craving for more of this substance than their body can handle.

Colleen Montague 24:20

You could always relate it to how much we love sugar and the more sugar we eat, the more sugar our body wants. Now, sugar is not going to cause the same effect as drugs, so I don't want to create fear around sugar, but just for them to understand. You know, the more you give your body, it really likes it. It's feels and tastes so good and you get, like you know, kind of a little energy from it and then, but really we know too much sugar isn't good for us and it doesn't make us feel good but it still tastes so good. So how could something that tastes so good not actually be good for us?

Brad Quillen 24:53

So, with that example, Colleen, the reality is that the drug took away some pain, or didn't? It changed how the person felt right, and so they continue to use these pieces. And so then there's the question of we use the word called drug and there's the confusion of because I go to the doctor to get drugs when I'm sick? Well, I thought these were to make you better. So, Erin, how do we tangibly explain that to a kiddo? Between the drug reality and the medicine or prescription piece?

Erin Nelson 25:22

Yeah. So when we're talking to a child about medication, and especially when we're talking about overdose, we're seeing that they use more of the medication than the doctor prescribed or with safety use, and that's how their body stopped working. So when we're explaining that, especially with the overdose piece, to let them know that, of course, when you're taking something, a medication, it's always dosed according to your body weight and according to how your body will process this medication. But when someone takes too much, then their body can stop working.

Brad Quillen 25:56

And that's the phrase I think too, that I want to come back to. Is they made their body stop working? Because I know there's people listening right now. Well, how do I explain even death or died, you know, and there's that reality. So that age appropriate language the age appropriate language.

Erin Nelson 26:12

And then, when you think about the illness or substance use disorder, we talk about it to children, as it's a brain illness and it sometimes can lead to death. And so knowing that, just like with cancer or any other illness, it sometimes can lead to death, right, and so being able to explain it as an illness to a child as well.

Brad Quillen 26:35

Yeah, and doing too much of it will make their body stop working.

Erin Nelson 26:38

Right, if yeah, in taking too much medicine.

Brad Quillen 26:42

Erin, you're given some tangibles and just concrete ways to explain that, and even on our website at jessica's house. org, there's a number of resources of how to have those conversations with kids, and so, folks, if you're listening and need some of that, you can go to the website. One of the other things, colleen, we hear from kids in some of those first weeks, months, is that guilt or that regret or the thought that if I only would have done this, maybe there would have been a different outcome.

Colleen Montague 27:07

We had a little girl once who shared if she could call her daddy on the phone. She wishes she could tell him not to take those last two pills. And that is what our kids, you know, are holding inside. They do have that wish, they have that wondering. You know, could I have done something different? Or maybe they really think it was their fault. You know, man, I really, I should have just asked him harder, please, please, stop using. If only I could have made them stop.

Colleen Montague 27:35

And we always say, you know, be there for the regrets, listen to them. You know it's in their body, it's in their heart. We don't want to just shut it down. You can't take a regret away from somebody but, like Erin said, those can soften in time and so after you hear their regrets, you can follow up with. You could not have made him stop. Only he could have done that. But the addiction made it too hard for him to stop. There could also be fears that other people in their life could have addiction and die from substance use. You know, brad, you've said before the worst thing has happened, so couldn't it happen again? You know that safety bubble's been burst and parents may even hold that fear too. Now you know that they don't want their child or other child to struggle with the same.

Erin Nelson 28:23

Yeah, and I just want to say too that when we're talking to our kids it's so apparent, you know, as a parent, we just want to protect them and so when they're expressing that guilt or regret, as we hear, that not to jump in too fast but to really allow them to express, like Well, some, you know, I wish, like you said, with the two pills, I wish I could have told daddy not to take those two pills. At Jessica's house, you know, we talk a lot about reflection and mirroring being able to say you really wish that you could have told daddy not to take those two pills because you want them to come to you. Even with these regrets, they're not anchored in correct information. Right, we know that there's nothing they could have done to stop this illness of addiction, but we also want them to be able to say it and to have a safe space to express these regrets that they have, Because, like we said earlier, it really is part of grief.

Brad Quillen 29:24

I'm going to say something that some listeners might not agree with or they'll be like no, and you were talking about protecting kids. One of the ways that we can protect kids but also be the person they come to with those regrets and those questions is to tell them the truth, because they're going to hear the truth somewhere and calling you alluded to it a couple minutes ago. They're going to hear from other people and when they hear from other people it's usually got wrong information in it and they've heard it third, fourth, fifth hand and then it just makes it all the more confusing. But when they hear it from their caregiver, their parent, their adult, they know that when I ask questions I'm going to get the truth and I can always go to them. But it's so true with you want to hear those regrets, to be able to be with them in those regrets.

Erin Nelson 30:05

Yeah, and all you're doing, Brad and I love what you're saying here it's like you're establishing that trust. And so they are developing a pattern of going to you as their caregiver with regrets, with their questions, with any kind of concerns, and also their fears. One just natural fear that a child will have. I mean, once this safety bubble is burst of like, oh, we live in a family and people, everyone's here, and once someone dies, you always just naturally will wonder well, will someone else die? I think kids have that fear, but so do adults, and so you know a child, especially with how someone dies and we hear this quite a bit, even in our groups where a child loses their loved one to cancer, they'll wonder about, you know, disease in their body or will their parent or other sibling, you know, get a disease like this.

Erin Nelson 30:59

It's the same thing with addiction and so knowing that a child who lives with a parent or sibling with addiction, or someone a loved one with an addiction and lives with that illness, they may wonder if someone else will start using, get worried about substance use, alcohol use, and wonder, like maybe a parent's having a glass of wine, and if someone died from an alcohol overdose, you know, will that happen? You know, maybe. So they could develop some fears around that as well.

Brad Quillen 31:29

I'll say to parents in group from time to time that and caregivers that are in groups that I mean think of all the big emotions that are in our bodies in this adult group and the questions and the unexplainable things. And we have some life experience to see that through in a lens and we have some understanding that comes with years and being a parent and, you know, doing life for so long. But there's these six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 12 year olds that are downstairs at Jessica's House that have these same big emotions and big questions, but in a little body.

Practical Tips for Honest Communication

Erin Nelson 31:59

Yeah, absolutely, they have these questions and they also, just as we talked about parents, they could experience rage, right, and a lot of complex emotions, because it's really this mixture of love for the person and compassion for the person and maybe some relief that the person you know isn't in pain anymore, but also really angry at the person for leaving them this way, for not overcoming their addiction, and so they also may have some confusion, just like you mentioned, just like unanswerable.

Erin Nelson 32:34

I feel like sometimes there are a lot of confusing circumstances with an overdose and they're not. People aren't really sure what exactly happened, because they could have been alone and there may not be answers. So a child may wonder, you know, if they have, if they are of the age to understand, maybe suicide. It's like they may wonder was it an accident? Was it suicide? So there may be some confusion there and there may be some confusion in the family and, as you're talking to your child about the truth, if you don't know the truth, it's okay to say I don't know, and so if there are some complexities around the circumstances, it's okay to just say I wish I had more information. I'm going to do everything that I can to get this information's and I will let you know as soon as I found out.

Brad Quillen 33:19

So let me ask you two this, because there are listeners that are hearing us, there's a hundred questions that they're worried their kiddo's gonna ask, how do those exchanges happen? Is it cause we've worked with hundreds of families in this, but we've also helped families have those conversations with their kiddos? Is it all at once? Is it over time? They ask questions? Is there some relief we can bring to those that are listening right now that are just overwhelmed with thinking of, oh, but I don't have answers to these six or seven questions, or you know, I'm so nervous that they ask this.

Colleen Montague 33:54

Kids ask questions. They're ready to receive answers too that's what we learned over the years and they don't always ask them. You know, in multiplicities, you know they don't ask them all at once, and so they're going to ask what they want to know, and that usually satiates them, and then they'll come back when they're ready for more information, or maybe they're going to ask the same question again.

Colleen Montague 34:12

They need to hear that answer over and over again as they try to make sense of it. And so it's okay to enter into that space with them, because even if you don't have the answers, like Erin said, you can say I don't know. If I find out, I'll let you know. There might be some things we just don't know the answer to.

Brad Quillen 34:31

So, Erin, let me ask you this question, because kids might not know how to even phrase this, but it's something that they run into at school or with friends or sports teams or dance class or whatever it may be. There's this how do I answer the question to my buddies that ask, or my friends, how did my dad die? Or my person die, but they're scared to say anything about the reality of how they died, because they ask us a lot of questions but then they don't know how to answer those questions when they're asked.

Erin Nelson 35:02

Yeah, and I think, as parents, as we model this openness about talking about the illness of addiction and how this affects your brain and the choices that you make, that when kids are asked these questions sometimes they're just naturally going to in your family about the illness of addiction, that they have words to say and that it's natural to feel embarrassed about how someone dies sometimes, but being able to say that my dad died from the illness of addiction, so having terminology in your family and talking about what that looks like, can really help them to have some just words to talk to their friends about. And that it's natural, as just as they come to you with their fears, they can also come to you with their sense of shame.

Brad Quillen 36:02

Because it's a reality of all humans. When someone dies, we want to know how.

Erin Nelson 36:07

We always want to know how that's a survival skill, right? I mean, knowing how someone dies helps keep us alive, right. And so our brain always seeks an answer to how someone died, and so that's always. I just had. I heard about someone that had been in an accident and I just needed to like kind of envision this in my mind, like where were they going and what happened? Did they call for help? And you know, you just wonder in your own mind about, you know what happened. And so, as kids, as you learn about how someone dies, it's just a natural question. It's not a bad question on the playground If they hear that someone's dad died, or sibling or mom just to say how did they die. And so equipping your child on how to answer that is really important.

Brad Quillen 36:57

So we're asking the same questions that kids are asking.

Erin Nelson 37:00

Oh yeah, absolutely, it's just a natural question. I mean, just think about it. You search the headlines, you hear like your favorite actor died at 85, you know Well how did he die, you know? And so you wonder, just a natural curiosity.

Brad Quillen 37:15

And when there's no reason given on the news, what do we do as adults?

Erin Nelson 37:19

Oh, you got to dig in.

Brad Quillen 37:20

Speculate.

Erin Nelson 37:21

Right, speculate, that's true.

Brad Quillen 37:23

We do the exact same thing.

Erin Nelson 37:24

Absolutely, you just do it.

Brad Quillen 37:27

And that's what these kiddos are doing.

Colleen Montague 37:28

Yeah, and so that's why, if we can prepare our kids ahead of time, you know, hey, there are other families that don't. They haven't gone through what we've gone through, so they may not be able to understand. But when people ask you questions, you get to choose how to answer them, and so if you kind of have some ideas ahead of time, that can help you feel more ready for those questions, depending on how you're feeling with them, or the person who's asking how comfortable you feel with them. You could tell them, "My dad took too many pills and he died", or you could say, "My dad died, and that's all I want to say right now." And so really empowering your kid to get to have control over what they want to share and to who they want to share, Because sometimes people are curious for the wrong reasons, not helpful reasons, but then there are those that are curious but they're going to still be with you in it.

Brad Quillen 38:22

"control think that's so good to have them help them be prepared, so they're not caught off guard because they're going to be asked.

Erin Nelson 38:28

Yeah, they'll be asked and it's okay for them to even say it's hard for me to talk about. Just be honest, you know that maybe they're not. They don't want to talk about it right now, and it's okay to say that as well.

Helping Kids Navigate Questions and Fears

Colleen Montague 38:41

And I always like to relate it, even just to myself, if I'm, you know, empowering my kids for something, I can share an experience I've had, you know. Oh, you know, I had that happen to me and this is what I decided to say, so that they know they're not alone in it, that you, as their parent, are being asked you know the same things from others around them.

Erin Nelson 39:03

f, and I think just after having just a lot of different types of deaths in our family. It's just awkward sometimes. That's just the truth of it.

Brad Quillen 39:13

Just baseline.

Erin Nelson 39:14

Just baseline, you know, it's just awkward. I mean, you just someone dies and you have to explain it and some people don't really know what to do with it and you're like, okay, that that's just life, that's just, you know, people don't always know what to say. They say silly things and just knowing having that conversation with your child, that sometimes it kind of feels bad when people don't know what to say, and but we can talk about that together.

Colleen Montague 39:40

And you may not like the answer you gave in the moment. You know, maybe you just didn't know what to say and you feel like what you said was awkward, and that's okay. It teaches us for the next time of what would have felt better and what we want to try next time someone asks.

Brad Quillen 39:54

One time somebody in group said you know, people talk to me about how my husband died and it's just clunky.

Erin Nelson 39:59

It's just clunky. You know absolutely grief is clunky.

Brad Quillen 40:03

One of those grocery store conversations.

Erin Nelson 40:04

Yeah, grief is clunky.

Brad Quillen 40:06

Yep, we look back and go. Oh, I sure could have said that better. Yeah, or that someone walks up to us. You can just see the uncomfortableness in them and you know what they're going to ask in the world of grief. And it's you know, it's just clunky.

Erin Nelson 40:19

It really is.

Brad Quillen 40:20

Hey, as we kind of wrap up today, Colleen, I want you to leave our listeners with a practical way that they can kind of give their kids something tangible to process with some of their emotions, to reflect a bit, but then also a way that they could ask questions through this exercise that you're about to share. Would you mind sharing about the wishing flag idea?

Colleen Montague 40:39

Erin shared earlier in the episode about how we just want to be there for our kids wishings and wonderings, and one way you can give them permission to share those is through this activity with them, so with your child, you could create a wishing flag and that could be done, if you wanted to get fancy with it, on a little canvas flag or a simple piece of paper that you could hang somewhere after. But the three prompts are I wonder, I wish, I hope. And so, asking your child, you know, what do you wonder? And letting them fill in the blank, you could do your own flag alongside them what do you wish and what do you hope. And so, again, we can't necessarily change the outcome, we can't necessarily grant those wishes, perhaps, but we can be there to ask and hear and hold those with them.

Brad Quillen 41:30

Colleen, Erin, thank you so much for this today. This is a really tough topic and, for those of you listening, be sure to visit jessicashouse. org for more grief resources and if you have other topics or questions you'd like us to cover on this podcast, we welcome your email at info@ jessicashouse. org. Be sure to join us next time for another episode of When Grief Comes Home.

Gary Shriver 41:53

Until then, we wish you well. Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center located in California's Central Valley since 2012. We provide free peer support for children, teens, young adults and their families grieving a loss. The When Grief Comes Home podcast goes along with the book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers and if you need grief-related support, please visit jessicashouse. org to download our free resources and be sure to follow Jessica's House on social media. If you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to explore in a future episode, just send us an email to info@ jessicashouse. org. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time for When Grief Comes Home.