How To Support Your Child Through Grief

Grief changes a family’s whole weather system, and parenting through it can feel impossible when you’re trying to protect a child while you’re hurting too. We sit down with Dr. Pamela Gabbay, author of Understanding and Supporting Bereaved Children, to get practical, field-tested guidance on what grieving kids and teens actually need and what adults often get wrong when they’re trying to help.

We talk about why listening is a grief skill, and how one small shift in language can open a door. Dr. Gabbay explains why “How are you feeling?” can backfire, and offers gentler prompts like “I’m wondering what you’re wondering” and “What are you stressed about?” We unpack the myth that kids must talk to heal, and why observing peers, play, art, and simple presence can be just as therapeutic in child grief support.

The conversation also explores how children’s grief evolves across developmental stages, why military family bereavement can be uniquely complex due to relocation, wartime death, and PTSD, and how parents can care for themselves without hiding their pain. We share trusted grief resources and communities such as TAPS Care Groups, The Compassionate Friends, and Soaring Spirits, plus what makes grief camps so powerful for connection and belonging. We close with hope, including post-traumatic growth and the ways support programs can plant seeds that show up years later.

If this helped, subscribe, share it with someone who’s carrying loss at home, and leave a rating and review so more grieving parents can find the support they deserve.

TAPS: https://www.taps.org/

The Compassionate Friends: https://www.compassionatefriends.org/ 

Soaring Spirits: https://soaringspirits.org/

Order the book Understanding and Supporting Bereaved Children: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Supporting-Bereaved-Children-Professionals/dp/0826140483

Order the book When Grief Comes Home: https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L

Jessica's House Resources: https://www.jessicashouse.org/resources

For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org 

Transcript

Welcome And Mission Of The Podcast

Gary Shriver 0:00

Hello, and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a podcast dedicated to parents living through loss while supporting their child. Let's meet the team.

Erin Nelson 0:10

I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at Jessica's House.

Colleen Montague 0:14

Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, Program Director for Jessica's House and a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Brad Quillen 0:21

Hi, I'm Brad Quillen, and I'm the host of When Grief Comes Home.

Gary Shriver 0:25

This podcast goes along with the book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers. Now let's go to the team as they share grief resources and coping skills, heartfelt stories and insights to support parents as they raise children who are grieving. Together, you'll find strength as we learn to live with loss and find ways to heal.

Meet Dr. Pamela Gabe

Brad Quillen 1:01

Well, hello, hello. It's Brad from Jessica's House. Today, we're honored to welcome Dr. Pamela Gabbay, author of Understanding and Supporting Bereaved Children. Pamela has been supporting grieving children and families for over 30 years, including her work as executive director at Mourningstar Center, where her and Aaron first met, and her current role with TAPS, the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors, which is supporting military families. Pamela speaks across the country, facilitates grief camps for children and teens, and has dedicated her career to helping us understand what grieving children truly need. Pamela, it's so good to have you with us today here on When Grief Comes Home. Thank you, thank you for taking a few moments to be with us today.

Pamela Gabbay 1:43

Oh, you're

A Personal Calling Into Grief Work

Pamela Gabbay 1:44

welcome. I'm so glad to be here.

Erin Nelson 1:45

Pamela, you and I go way back. In fact, the very first grief center I ever visited was to yours at Mourningstar way back in, I think it was about 2011. And I'll never forget walking in and meeting you for the first time. And I had never been in a children's bereavement center before. And so can you talk a little bit about what drew you to this work? And you've been doing this work for over 30 years. Is that right?

Pamela Gabbay 2:15

That's that's true, yes. And and I do remember when you called me on the phone and said that, you know, all of you were thinking of opening your center there or in the process of doing that. And could I give you a tour and meet with you? And I was delighted. And it was it was great when you came down. Uh so I ended up in this field because when I was 25, um my dad died in a truck crash. And I had just had a little baby three weeks earlier, and I remember very vividly, number one, not knowing anything about grief at all, still had my grandparents living, and also not knowing anything about how to be a mom. And my instincts took over, and I just focused on being a mom. Didn't really focus on grief at all. And at one point, about two years after my dad died, all of a sudden I started listening to country music again, which I had stopped listening to because that was his favorite. And I spent a weekend listening to Garth Brooks crying and hanging his photos everywhere. And that's when I realized, oh, grief catches up with you. It comes and finds you. You can ignore it all day long. Uh, and then I had another child, my son Josh. And when he was about nine months old, my mom was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. And she died two weeks later from diagnosis to death. And I remember vividly my son turning one and thinking, okay, I see how this works. And remember, I'm still in my 20s. I remember thinking, so you get to have kids, but you have to give up a parent or give up. And I know that's irrational now, but really that's how I was operating. So I I decided not to have any more kids. Um, but about six weeks after my mom died, I was watching Phil Donahue's show. And my at the time, four-year-old daughter was in preschool, and my son was sleeping in his nursery. And the Donahue show was about a little family whose neighborhood child was playing with his dad's gun and shot another, you know, a neighbor child. And the family that was up there were the ones who had the child die. And I was crying. Again, my mom had just died six weeks before. You know, my dad had died before that. My my parents had been young, 49, 51. They were young parents. And my mom really was my best friend. And I'm sobbing watching Donahue, of course, thinking of my own pain, but really at that point, thinking about those parents and their pain. And all of a sudden, I found myself on the floor in my living room crying, and I started praying. And the prayer became, you know, God, if you'll take me out of this pain, I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping grieving people. And just saying that over and over again, it was like being struck by lightning because all of a sudden it just, I knew it. I knew what I was doing with the rest of my life outside of being, you know, a wife and mom. Right. And we've heard of callings, but I knew when I got up off the floor that I was transformed. And it really went from there. Uh, so that was in December of 1994. That's actually how I'm able to keep up with how long I've been in the field. Uh, because a center for grieving kids, the Morningstar Center, happened to open in our town six months later.

Erin Nelson 5:54

Oh, wow.

Pamela Gabbay 5:55

And I found out I was back in college to do this line of work, whatever it was called back then, right? And I found out that this new center was opening up. I already knew I was on my path. But when I talked to the founder and she told me the name Mourningstar, have you ever heard something and you have a physical reaction? Like my knees started knocking together because I couldn't believe she said Mourning Star because my mom, an intense ocean lover, had actually worked on a boat called the Mourning Star off of the Channel Islands because she just wanted to be out on the ocean. And there was this opening to go out there and serve food and be out all day on the water. And so that had been, you know, five, 10 years earlier. So when it came out Mourningstar, but as in mourning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G. The other one was mourning, like traditionally Mourningstar, but I knew I was on my path. And it really went from there. And I and I have to say, and I've known all of you for quite a few years, but I still to this day wake up in the morning and really almost leap out of bed to do this work.

Erin Nelson 6:57

Yeah, I was thinking about how a calling just has so much energy inside of it. And I I I like to call it like a divine momentum. And it's almost like you don't choose it when you say calling, it's it's chosen you. And so it just is an energy and a momentum. There's really no stopping it. It just propels you forward to do the work. And and I agree with you, just waking up in the morning, it's such a gift. And now, I mean, you were in with Mourningstar, you you really work nationally, and you're working with TAPS, supporting military families. And what has that transition been like? And um what makes grief for military families a little bit unique, other than maybe what you've done in the past?

Pamela Gabbay 7:46

Yeah, thank you. Thank

Why Military Family Grief Differs

Pamela Gabbay 7:47

you. And and so my background is I was raised in the military and uh my dad was retired army, my sister also served in the army. So for me, being part of TAPS always made sense. And I remember when Bonnie Carroll founded TAPS, actually, coincidentally, 31 years ago, uh, I remember going, oh yes, we're sending any military bereaved children to TAPS. And of course it's grown through the years. Uh, but a few things that make military, military uh children and family bereavement experience different. Often it's dad who's died, and uh, but also it could be if mom died, but mainly if dad dies and he was the one in the service, they don't stay living where they're living. They go back to typically mom's hometown. So they lose that day-to-day connection with the military, with the military culture, their military friends, the military community, everything that is familiar to them. And I I must say I lived that, right? I lived where we always lived on post, and we were you're never just a family when your family's in the military, right? You're a lar you're part of this larger experience. And so their grief is hugely impacted by that. Uh, their grief is also hugely impacted if dad dying, dad, dad died during war. Um, the other thing that I've seen a lot in my work with TAPS families is uh men and women who come home with PTSD. And even though they may be being treated for PTSD, it shows up in the lives of children because it's in the family. And sometimes they die by suicide related to PTSD, but it could also be other conditions related to war or their experience in the military. And that is very different than the kids that I was accustomed to working with on a regular basis.

Erin Nelson 9:51

Yeah, there are so many different complexities with losing your community and the PTSD that can come with being in the military. But thank you for speaking to

What Bereaved Children Want Adults To Know

Erin Nelson 10:02

that.

Brad Quillen 10:02

Pamela, your book, Understanding and Supporting Brief Children, was foundational for us when we opened Jessica's House many years ago, and still some of the things that we go back to over and over in training new volunteers and all those pieces, it takes a unique approach and focuses on what children themselves want or might need in their grief, which sometimes we find ourselves as adults and as I've sat in led groups for years and years. Sometimes we keep some of those things from kids because we want to protect them. But can you just kind of expand on that and uh share some of those perspectives from me that you've learned over the years in that?

Pamela Gabbay 10:36

Sure, sure. So when I ended up volunteering at the Center for Grieving, I mean at Mourningstar Center, which was that new Center for Grieving Children that opened up in my backyard, I started out as a volunteer. And the first time I was in a circle of kids on beanbags talking with them, I knew I was at home. And here's the other thing that happened. They taught me everything I knew. I was going to college, doing all that, but honestly, the kids taught me everything. And to this day, they still do. Children and teens often know what they need. And so a practical tip and tool that is one of my favorites for parents or somebody in the mental health field or a school teacher. If you're wondering what a bereaved child or teen needs, ask them, right? And if they don't know the answer today, ask them again in a few days and ask it in different ways. Like I'm wondering if there's anything you're worried about. I'm wondering what you're wondering. I'm wondering what it's been like for you or what the funeral is like for you, right? Those are all different than how are you feeling? Just asking the question differently. And then the book and our approach around what grieving kids want you to know. Um, in 2002, I wrote an article that ended up on an NACG website called What Grieving Children and Teens Want You to Know. 10 Things, I think it was. And when Andy and I decided to write the book together, he had his different things that he wanted to do. For me, one of the most important things for me was starting with that and then offering practical tips that not only people in our field could implement, but that a school teacher, a school counselor could pick up the book and go, Oh, okay, I have a, you know, 10-year-old who's coming into my office in an hour. Here's some practical things I can say and do with them.

Brad Quillen 12:29

We we use that 10 tip sheet. We do. And we must have printed that thing like crazy. But just the idea of just saying, what do you need?

Erin Nelson 12:37

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Brad Quillen 12:38

It's it's simple, but yet it's just what they do need.

Erin Nelson 12:42

It is. It's so true. And I love the I'm wondering what you're wondering because so many times kids have questions and they don't really know how to ask them. And when you invite them to just go into that in a gentle way, and it's just a conversation that can keep going.

Pamela Gabbay 13:00

And how I agree. And and here's another one we don't hear as much. Can you can you tell me what you're stressed about? That's different than what are you feeling?

Erin Nelson 13:10

Yes.

Pamela Gabbay 13:11

So I try to get creative with my language around the other, you know, without around finding out what it's like for them. The other thing I'll say is, you know, I'll tell parents this, or not tell, but you know, throw this out to parents when I'm doing parent workshops. I'll say it. You know, you can also say to your kids and teens, I'm wondering if you would like me to stop asking you what you're wondering about. And then everybody laughs, but they get the point. Right. The other thing that I'm very passionate about is the myth in our society that you have to talk about it in order to feel better, be better, and do better. And that sounds counterintuitive because we run programs, right, where kids come in and talk about it. But what we know that often parents don't know in society in general is they think that kids have to talk about it in order to feel better, be better, and do better. When in reality, they can come into our circle or into our can and observe what the other kids are saying and doing. And for some kids, that helps them as much as talking themselves because they're not ready to talk. Absolutely. Maybe they're not talkers that way. And then doing the activities, whether it's an art-related activity or a fun, playful activity, for many kids that addresses the help and support they need as much, if not more, than talking about it.

Erin Nelson 14:35

Yes, just to know you're not alone, to hear the questions that you have come from someone else and know that that is a question that you've had that you've never been able to articulate. But you're hearing it, and it really helps just that resonance to know that someone else feels the way I do.

Pamela Gabbay 14:54

Yes. And we say this in our field, right? That's part of the magic of our centers and programs and camps is kids can look around the room and say, you know, I'm not alone. And they don't even have to say it out out loud. They can think it.

Erin Nelson 15:08

They feel it in their bodies, absolutely.

Colleen Montague 15:10

Pamela, what I love about the common thread among all of your questions that you ask kids and and encourage parents to ask is how empowering it is for the child, you know, to have a voice that as they're the adult in their life, they want to hear from them. And I love, I like that so much for kids who have been placed in a situation where they do feel so powerless. Agree.

Pamela Gabbay 15:36

And and if I die tomorrow, I will be probably most proud that I feel like I've been an advocate for adults listening to our kids, right? And and and and having them show us or tell us or both what they need.

Colleen Montague 15:53

On

How Grief Changes With Development

Colleen Montague 15:54

that, Pamela, we know that, you know, kids' understanding of death and grief responses change as they grow. Can you walk us through how a children's needs evolve across different developmental stages after a loss?

Pamela Gabbay 16:09

Sure. You know, I think of our littles, right? We started groups and had our little group ages three to five. And at that young age, or certainly, you know, one and two, they understand and know the missing. Well, babies know the missing, don't they? Uh but of course, cognitively, preschool kids don't fully understand that somebody has died and they're not coming back. And we talked with them about, you know, when somebody dies, their heart stops beating, they no longer have a pulse and have them do all those things. Uh, but as they grow and begin to understand that mom is truly not coming back and they will never see her again or have a hug from her again, that changes their grief. Right. And as they grow and learn more about the world, their grief has changed. And for me personally, one of the things that's most impactful for kids as they're growing and developing is renegotiating what their grief means to them, what the death means to them. We think about teens, right? And I didn't mean to jump from seven or eight to teens, but a teenager is talking about when I go to college, right? Or if I move out, who's going to help care for my younger siblings? Right. They're renegotiating. Middle school kids, um, you know, it's already really complicated to be in middle school. And all these new feelings they might be having that they never had before to renegotiate their loss. Uh, so I think in every developmental stage, depending on when their person or people have died, is a matter of just somehow reconciling their wants, their wanting that person with the ability to actually have them. The other thing that we haven't talked about is how so many of the kids and teens we see have had multiple losses. You know, I've been making reference mom or dad, but it's not unusual for for kids, right? The kids that we see to have had two or three significant people in their life who've died. So they're also trying to figure out like what is it about them where people die versus friends they have at school who haven't had anybody die.

Parenting With Grace And Honest Emotion

Colleen Montague 18:27

So then, Pamela, how can parents prepare themselves for these evolving needs that are going to be lifelong for their children?

Pamela Gabbay 18:36

I think a couple of things. I think it does go back to what we talked about where you're finding out from your child what they need at that stage. Or maybe even another way to word it is, you know, are there some ways that I can help school be more manageable for you? Are there, are there some activities that we could be doing that we're not doing that would mean something to you? Right. And and asking them about what matters to them, I think is one thing that we've definitely talked about. The other thing, and I stress this to parents all the time, don't be so hard on yourself. You know, parents go around saying, well, there's no, you know, textbook for how to do this, although there are plenty of parenting books. But in reality, each child isn't born with a book. Here's how to help my child. And then you add in grief and trauma on top of regular everyday parenting. So I really stress to parents, and if there's a parent or a grandparent, guardian out there who's listening to this, give yourself the same grace that you would give someone else and know that you're doing the best that you can. And I just I think that's so important. So one of the other things that I recommend for parents a way that they can help themselves while also helping their kids, because most parents I've encountered are really hyper-focused, as they should be, on helping their kids. But when I say to them, research has shown that the better parents are coping and role modeling healthy coping for the kids, the better their kids will do. And the reason I love sharing that is it also empowers the parents to take time for themselves when they realize, okay, if I'm, you know, focusing on getting out walking, if I'm focused on doing things that help me to feel better, my kids are seeing that. And if I'm feeling better, my kids are less worried about me. Now, having said that, we also don't want parents hiding their grief. So it's a balance, right? And again, it's not one size fits all. But I say to parents, let your kids see you crying, let them know that you're in pain. Sometimes you talking about I really miss dad so much opens the door for them to later talk about missing dad so much. But there's a balance, and and and this is more long-term, a balance of caring for themselves, which helps care for the kids and then helps care for the entire family. The family as a whole in their new reality copes better. Yeah, they're modeling that self-care is happening.

Erin Nelson 21:23

Yeah, modeling that for the ch for your children, taking really good care of yourself so that your children start to understand that that is how you get through grief and that is how you get through hard things in life, that you take really good care of yourself and through that grief process.

Brad Quillen 21:40

Pamela, I'm so glad you talked about taking care of yourself in front of your kids, as Aaron was just saying, because it gives that that that model. One of the things that baffled me that I had learned early on was kids feel like they have to keep it together because they don't want to make mom or dad or whoever's taking care of them now sad that they kind of have. They feel like they had to hold it together because then that would disrupt the rest of the house. And so it's kind of like it's multifaceted on both sides. But when we share those emotions as adults with kiddos, it gives them permission to then do that in reverse, right?

Pamela Gabbay 22:14

Yes, exactly. I I couldn't have said it better, Brad. And one of the things that I've seen with working with children and teens across the country over many, many years is that's universal. Yeah. Whether we are in California, in Virginia, in Newtown, in New York City, Albuquerque, wherever we are, children will say in groups or at camp, I don't want my mom getting upset and worried about me. So I'm not showing her how I feel. And a question that I'll pose to the group, not necessarily that one child, is I'll say, you know, I'm wondering if you knew that it helps them to see you coping and talking about your grief. I'm wondering if you knowing that that actually helps them would change that for you. And kids are usually like, what? Really? That affects my parent if they see me sad. I said if they see you, if they see you processing it. And uh it it can help. And and and that really goes back to family grief, right? And how we grieve as a family. But yes, kids universally want to protect their parents from their own pain because they know how worried their parents are about them. Yeah.

Brad Quillen 23:34

I I used to say this idea, it's like the transference of grief. Because if I share mine, it's gonna make them sad. Or if I cry, it's gonna make them bring them down because I'm down. And so um, but it goes both ways. As parents, we naturally want to protect, but as kids, we don't want our parents to be sad because dad died, and I don't want mom sad because she's already sad, dad's gone, or vice versa, mom's gone, all those pieces.

Pamela Gabbay 23:55

Yeah, and it sometimes what that does is it creates silos within families. Even siblings will hide their grief from each other because they don't want their brother or sister worrying about them.

Erin Nelson 24:10

Pamela, you talked about just when a parent is um just, you know, they're really grieving in, you know, their own, they're having their own grief experience and how they can be honest about that without, you know, overburdening their children. And, you know, so much of the time when parents are coming to us, they're still doing their day-to-day life and they're holding so much, they're solo parenting. What are some practical strategies when you think about how a parent can really take care of themselves? What are some ways that a parent can take care of themselves when they're grieving?

Finding Support Groups And Community

Pamela Gabbay 24:48

One of the first things that I'll ask a parent, who supports you? Who in your life, whether they live near you or you talk on the phone, or you text FaceTime, who supports you? And when a parent says, I don't have anyone, that I'll I'll I'll say, let's talk about where you can find community as a bereaved mom or a bereaved dad or a grief, brief grandma, right? When I say bereaved, I mean, you know, your husband could have died or your child could have died. Yeah. Where can you find community? And of course, there's a lot of great organizations in the United States where there are closed Facebook groups you can join. There are lots of, thank goodness, right? Support groups out there, both in person and on Zoom. And we talk about if if you don't feel you're getting enough support, find it. And that's that proactive piece of grief where you actually do something to help yourself.

Erin Nelson 25:53

That's so important. And Pamela, just as a parent is listening to this today, I'd love if you could maybe email us later some of these practical support if you know of any online groups, because you're right, sometimes and even you're speaking about military families or someone's moved to a new area, maybe there's just not natural support in the community. I would love to attach in our show notes some of those online communities that you know of. Is there anything right now that you can think of with any national organizations that might have an online support?

Pamela Gabbay 26:26

Absolutely. I'll start with TAPS.

Erin Nelson 26:28

Yeah.

Pamela Gabbay 26:29

TAPS, we call them care groups. Okay. But they are grief groups. They're called TAPS care groups. And I'll be sure to send you the link on that. And we have uh a lot in person. So you might have one in your community, uh, but we have a lot also that are on Zoom, and they're typically every other week. Um, so so that right there is support. Um, there's also, if you are military-bereaved, you know, you can certainly reach out to Jessica's house and you know, please feel free to forward the email to me. But we have a lot of partner organizations that do a lot at no cost for military-bereaved families.

Erin Nelson 27:11

That's great.

Pamela Gabbay 27:12

And also, if you've had a sibling die or a child die of any age at any cost, The Compassionate Friends also has uh virtual Zoom groups. And so reach out to them. They have around 40 private Facebook groups and different topics that you can join. Those are the two that are coming to mind right now. Oh, another big one. If you are widowed or widower, or your significant other has died, um, Soaring Spirits.

Erin Nelson 27:47

Soaring Spirits.

Pamela Gabbay 27:48

Similar type things. They have, I don't know what they call them, but they're similar to grief groups or care groups in person and virtually, and they have a great program called Widow Match where you have a mentor who helps you. So those are the three that are coming to mind offhand. Are there other ones that all of you can think of?

Erin Nelson 28:09

Those are so helpful. We are not as connected in the online community because you know, of course, we're doing our groups here, and but we're always looking because sometimes people will reach out to us and there may be a reason they can't come to Jessica's House and they may be um out of the area. And of course, this um podcast is international. And so just giving those online resources is really helpful. So thank you for that.

What Makes Grief Camps Powerful

Colleen Montague 28:34

Oh, yes. Mrs. Pamela, I want to talk about the grief camps you facilitate because that's such a powerful model for supporting bereaved children and teens. What happens at these camps that's different from other types of grief support?

Pamela Gabbay 28:50

Yes, yes. Well, I love camps. Uh I will say I started out doing a Camp Erin, and we had a Camp Erin for many years. Uh, at TAPS, we have good grief camps, and then we have family camps, which are different than a camp errand or maybe experience camps, comfort zone camp. So at TAPS, our good grief camps are actually day camps because the parents are doing seminars and everything's held at a hotel, so they all stay in the same room together. So the kiddos are with us during the day and then with their parents at night. And we have family meals together, but in a hotel setting. Uh, that's different than an outdoor camp like a Camp Erin, but it works really well in that military setting because we we have plenty of time with the kids to do, of course, you know, art activities and processing, but we also have a tremendous amount of fun and we get to do really unique things. Uh, like our national, we call them nationals, but our national seminar, we typically have 350 to 400 kids at this, and then, you know, uh more than a thousand adults. But one of the things we do every year with that camp is we spend the day on the national mall in DC. And what a great field trip for your camp, right? Uh so good great camp is a little bit different of a model, and we do a lot of things that are connected to the military, which is great. And we also have nature-based things we do. Um, our family camp that we do is the entire family coming. And our focus is on grief and loss, but our main focus is how the family has changed, and how do you build new connections with your family? What have you learned as a family? And, you know, what are your family values now? How have they changed? You know, communication, all of that. And we had a wonderful family camp in January in Colorado in the snow, and we did all kinds of hikes and all kinds of, you know, campfires and all these amazing things, and it was wonderful. Uh traditional grief camps, Camp Erin, comfort zone camp, experience camps. Uh, one of the reasons why I love them so much is you there, those typically don't have any adults there uh that are parents, right? They're the kids with staff and volunteer. The thing that I love about camp in that setting is that all the kids are thrown together. And, you know, again, with the the, you know, you have a lot of volunteers and staff, but they get a chance over multiple days to really bond with other kids in a different way than we see in our groups and to spend time processing their grief in the outdoors, and you see a difference from, and this was my entire career, from when kids show up at camp, typically Friday, and then leave on Sunday. It's like a different kid in some ways, a different child. And so that's why I'm a fan of both grief groups like Jessica's House, you know, the centers, and also Camp. Just because they bring out different parts of the grief process and different parts of the child. Okay. And the bonding that happens is intense. I'll give you an example of um, we just had a camp uh with taps. Well, I can't say where, but anyway, within the last six months, just because of confidentiality, I can't tell you which camp it was, but we do them almost every month. So one of the camps, um, we had our fire and a beautiful ceremony around the fire, and then kind of free talking if anybody wanted to share anything. And one of the teens got up and said, I love this camp because no one bullies me here. And then that led to a long discussion around being bullied and being bullied when you're grieving. And we've we've all heard that, right? And and I just don't know if it it would come up in that way in a grief group as compared to a camp.

Colleen Montague 32:58

Pamela,

Bullying After A Death And School Help

Colleen Montague 32:59

can you elaborate more about the bullying that happens? It it comes up a lot with the parents in our groups, and honestly, it's just something really hard for me to even wrap my head around of why we could be like kids can be so cruel to others. But what's your thought on that? Why is that happening? How can we support parents to support their kids? How can parents support their kids who are going through that?

Pamela Gabbay 33:24

I I will say too, it's it's devastating that bereaved children are bullied and in part because they're grieving, because they're different now, because someone died. And uh, like you, it was something that we definitely had, you know, saw in our community, communities in Southern California where we had our centers. And one of the things that we did that local centers can do and local camps can do is go into the schools and educate school teachers and school counselors about how grieving kids can be bullied and what are they doing, not only about bullying in general, but specifically for kids who've had no recent loss. Are they are they paying attention to that experience? And for parents, uh, you know, I recommend being empowered and go and talk to the school. Right. Even though often the kids will say, I don't want you to, that's more embarrassing. Often the parent has to intervene because the school counselors don't always know it's happening. But it's still happening. I mean, I knew it was still happening anyway, but this was a relatively recent camp. And once this teen spoke about that, other kids and teens around the campfire spoke about it. And it ended up being a very deep conversation that uh I would love for all school officials to see and hear, just because I know that so much more as compared to 20 years ago, right, is being done around bullying. But our our our kids who are vulnerable due to grief, stress, trauma, and sometimes targeted because of that, they need extra protection around it.

Colleen Montague 35:04

Yeah. Do you do you feel like the kids who are bullying, is it like a fear of that that kid is different or a fear that it could happen to them? Where do you think that comes from in a child?

Pamela Gabbay 35:17

That's a great question. I've never been asked that before. My personal opinion, I guess I'll give you. Uh, what I found in general with kids who bully other kids is they often are getting bullied at home in some way, whether by a sibling or a parent. Or maybe not getting directly bullied, but they've got a traumatic life at home. I haven't typically, my again, I'm giving you personal experience. I haven't typically seen kids who are quote unquote bullies. And I don't even like using that label. So kids who bully, uh, it's not typical that they're coming from the families where they've really been taught kindness, right? Where kindness is a value. And so I think that it comes from their own insecurity about who they are. And you know, it's so unfortunate because kids who stand out in some way are targets of bullying, whether it's something about them physically, right? Something about maybe their learning or learning style. And then grief is one of those things that kids aren't bullied, and and other kids will say, Well, with suicide, I've heard this many times in my career. Your dad killed himself because you're a brat. Your mom killed her, killed herself because you she didn't love you, didn't care about you. I mean, that's about as cruel as it can get, right? Have you guys ever heard that with your kids where somebody died by suicide and they were told that?

Erin Nelson 36:50

I don't know if I've heard that um actually, but it's making me think about, you know, just the vulnerabilities that we all have, right? And any time, and just how vulnerable a person is, a child is when they are grieving. And how if you do have someone who is having bullying behaviors, that they do often seek someone who has those vulnerabilities. And thinking about how, you know, as we as parents or even in group, as we're talking to kids about this, how we can be talking about empathy and what it feels like to be thinking about what it might feel like for someone who has these vulnerabilities. You mentioned it, it could be a learning style, it could be something physical, it could be that they're grieving, but anything that makes them different and they have um they are vulnerable, that if it is something that they may find themselves not know not knowing what to do with those vulnerabilities. And so they're somehow trying to gain control over that or something like that. I mean, who knows all the um, you know, the reasons why. But it's just such an important conversation um around empathy. And so, but I I'm really glad we're talking about this because I do know that this is something that our children here have experienced in our teens and young adults. And so it's such an important topic.

Post-Traumatic Growth And Why Support Matters

Erin Nelson 38:19

And Pamela, we've been together for so many years and just worked alongside each other. And I think about your, you know, three decades of work. But some one of my favorite kinds of the group work that we've shared is around post-traumatic growth. And you did a study even with Jessica's House families, where we really focused on post-traumatic growth, and that is such a hopeful kind of body of work, and something that we love to talk about around here, and something we've seen just to speak to, that we had a volunteer training recently where we had two of our kids who were once a child in our program, who are now volunteering and sharing their story, and watching them come through that and be naturally drawn to helping other children who've experienced a death like theirs. And so, can you talk about what is post-traumatic growth and what are you seeing in your field?

Pamela Gabbay 39:25

Yes, I love post-traumatic growth. I love it because it's hopeful and it's something that kids, teens, families can look to in their future potentially, or talk about having experienced it. So post-traumatic growth uh is really the experience or lessons learned after struggling with, grappling with, coping with, in this case, the death of somebody in our life. You can experience post-traumatic growth if you've had gone through some other type of trauma, traumatic experience as well. But we're we're talking specifically about when someone dies. And how post-traumatic growth happens is it really is about our struggle with it. And we'll here's the empowering part of it. And and I'll say this to kids and to adults. When you're actively coping with your grief is when you open the door for growth. And it's a it's pretty active. Yes. Um, talking about it, doing activities, writing about it, uh, doing a walk in their honor, right? Going to the cemetery, helping someone else, reaching out to someone else who's grieving. These are all things that you're actively doing to help yourself and possibly someone else. And the domains of post-traumatic growth, I'll just go over them briefly. The highlights are new appreciation for life or of life. Uh, for many adults, they report new purpose in life. And then personal strength saying things like, I never knew I could be this strong, which is different than people saying, You're so strong. When people go, I can survive anything. Like if I am surviving this, and the power in that. And that is often why we'll see people who've had a traumatic death or, you know, somebody in their life die volunteer for an organization like Compassionate Friends or TAPS or AFSP and American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. Um, it's it's why you'll see people participating in walks and raising money for a cause. For kids and teens, it's why they might go into the field of medicine or or something else. It's why they might go into our field or mental health because of what they've lived through. And uh I just have found that post-traumatic growth is something most people still haven't heard the term because I do a lot of talks on it still. And I'll start out by saying who's heard of it. And I might have five people out of the audience who raise their hands who've heard of it. And I'm not talking about mental health professionals or professionals in general, but John Q public still haven't heard of post-traumatic growth. So I love talking about it because you see sort of this light bulb that goes off like, oh yeah, well, I know what that is.

Erin Nelson 42:26

Yeah.

unknown 42:26

Yeah.

Speaker 5 42:27

And the lessons learned is a little more catchy.

Erin Nelson 42:30

Mm-hmm. You know, Pamela, when we think about post-traumatic growth, I'm wondering how does having support, we're talking about TAPS, compassionate friends, Jessica's House, Morningstar, the Dougy Center, how does having support contribute to post-traumatic growth?

Pamela Gabbay 42:47

Yes, thank you. And you brought up the research study that's being done. I'll circle back to that. So one of the ways that we know that our programs like Jessica's House, um, Good Grief Camp at TAPS, you know, all the programs across the country, we know anecdotally that they help children and families. But I really wanted to do research along with my good friend and colleague Lynn Snyder around the idea that our programs foster post-traumatic growth, that we're active in fostering it. And uh the idea being that narrative reconstruction or talking about your grief, doing things with your grief, the actual grappling with it fosters post-traumatic growth. And so we approached Dr. Ryan Kilmer out of U UNC Charlotte. Uh, he had done a lot of work in post-traumatic growth, and we proposed a study, and that was a few years ago. And last year, and the year before, we collected data, and we have found significance that our programs do, in fact, foster post-traumatic growth. It's not published yet, but when it is, you'll be the first to know. Um But why is that powerful? For quite a few reasons. It it helps parents who are bringing their children to our centers and programs and our camps to know that this not only helps their kids right now, but it it can lay the groundwork and plant the seeds to help them further along and in their life. Like what we're doing now in 2026 with our kids will show up, you know, all throughout their life, 10 years later, 20 years later. And and I know that anecdotally because once they're 18, they can come find me on social media and and I find out how they're doing.

Erin Nelson 44:39

Yes.

Pamela Gabbay 44:39

And I've had so many kids, and you guys probably have to say as adults now how much the program helped them, how it saved their lives, how it changed their life, right? You're you've been around long enough now to hear that.

Erin Nelson 44:53

Yeah, it's so inspirational. And something we always talk about is how we are doing kind of that prevention and that we're working to create a stronger and healthier community, and it really does make a difference. So thank you for that. Yes.

Advice For New Grief Volunteers

Brad Quillen 45:08

Pamela, to be able to do this work, we depend on a lot of volunteers and the whole industry does that that works with grieving children, right? And so there's a lot of people that are thinking about working with uh grieving kids, but they have some fears. Sometimes we hear, I'm so nervous, I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Or what if I cry in front of them? That's the one I get often. And what do you say to those folks that are kind of on the fence?

Pamela Gabbay 45:33

A couple of things. I'll I'll say, you know, tell me about your most recent loss. Because if they had somebody die three months ago, six months ago, it might not be the right time and space for them. Uh, but if you know, if that's not the case and they're in a pretty good place in their life, I assure them that they'll have great training, really great training to be able to walk into that space with kids. And then around having tears in your eyes, that's normal. And part of our pre-meeting that we have is you know, to talk about how are you doing tonight, how are you feeling, and and kind of ground everybody before going into group. But um, you know, sometimes as a volunteer or staff person, we get tears in our eyes and they actually end up being a tear or two that might fall fall out. We wipe them and we keep going. Yes. We think so. My explanation around that is we're human and I want you to show up as a human being.

Erin Nelson 46:36

Absolutely.

Colleen Montague 46:37

And we've said here too to our volunteers what that's the ultimate form of reflection, you know, to really show somebody that you're with them in that moment.

Pamela Gabbay 46:45

I love that. I love that. I haven't heard that put in that way before, but I love it.

Brad Quillen 46:51

Yeah, I just want to know that they can listen.

Erin Nelson 46:53

Yeah.

Brad Quillen 46:53

They can just listen to kids or just sit silent. You know, we can't fix it, right?

Hope Plus Resources And Closing

Pamela Gabbay 46:59

Right.

Brad Quillen 46:59

Hey, uh, we're wrapping up here, but I got one final question for you. And that, what gives you hope as you continue to work with bereaved families and and kiddos?

Pamela Gabbay 47:09

One of the things that gives me the most hope is how programs for bereaved families are generally expanding across the country. And I think of some new initiatives we're doing with TAPS. We're expanding services, right? Centers for grieving kids are continuing to open up. And that gives me a lot of hope because I love knowing that the support is out there. Uh it gives me hope that we have the digital space where we don't have to have, you know, a center for grieving kids in our own town, but we can still get support. That gives me a lot of hope. And all of the wonderful people we work with and all the new people coming up in the field. That gives me a lot of hope.

Erin Nelson 47:53

I love that. And Pamela, I always learn so much from you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for all the good work that you've done for so many years and that you you keep doing it. And thanks for being here. You're welcome. My pleasure.

Brad Quillen 48:09

Thank you, thank you. Erin, I know there's something you wanted to share with our listeners today as we wrap up this podcast. Why don't you go ahead and take a moment?

Erin Nelson 48:16

Just as our listeners have given us really great feedback, I just want to say if you could just take a moment to rate our podcast and also write a review. It helps get it into the hands of those who need it most. And so every time you review a podcast, it goes up a little bit into ratings. And so if somebody just types in grief in a podcast search, they can find this podcast. And as we know that it's been so helpful for parents who are grieving, we want to get it into more hands. So please rate and review.

Brad Quillen 48:54

Thanks, Erin. And let me remind you, be sure to visit jessicashouse.org for more grief resources. And if you have any other topics or questions you'd like us to cover on this podcast, we welcome your email at info @jessicashouse.org. Be sure to join us for the next episode of When Grief Comes Home. Until then, we wish you well.

Gary Shriver 49:17

Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center located in California's Central Valley since 2012. We provide free peer support for children, teens, young adults, and their families grieving a loss. The When Grief Comes Home podcast goes along with the book of the same name. The book When Grief Comes Home is a gentle guide for parents who are grieving a partner or child while helping their children through the loss of their parent or sibling. When Grief Comes Home is now available at all major book retailers. And if you need grief-related support, please visit jessicashouse.org to download our free resources and be sure to follow Jessica's House on social media. If you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to explore in a future episode, just send us an email to info @jessicashouse.org. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time for When Grief Comes Home.