32 - Sandra Capponi

Sandra is the co-founder of Good On You, the platform helping millions of shoppers instantly understand the sustainability of fashion and beauty brands. Since 2015, her team has rated over 7,000 brands, making it easier for us and many others to shop with our values.

We chat about her journey from banking to building a global sustainability startup, the realities of fast (and ultra-fast) fashion, and how consumer choices can drive meaningful industry change. Sandra also shares insights on navigating overwhelm in sustainability, the power of thoughtful decision-making, and why communication is key to creating impact. We hope you enjoy! 

Resources and terms mentioned: 

• Good On You
• ThredUp
• Poshmark
• Ultra-fast fashion 
• Fast fashion
• Fashion Sleuth Influencer
• Buyerarchy

As podcasting goes, we had a few tech hiccups towards the end of the episode. Good thing we take notes while recording! Here are some resources Sandra mentioned that were not included on the final episode: 

• The True Cost - film 
• Elizabeth Cline - investigative journalist 
• Over Dressed - Elizabeth Cline - book
• The Conscious Closet - Elizabeth Cline - book
• Sarah Kent - Business of Fashion 

Transcript

Aparna: [00:00:00] All right, pod people. Welcome back to another episode of Green Collar. Today we are joined by Sandra Capponi, who is the founder of Good on You. Retail's most trusted source for sustainability ratings. Since 2015, Good on You, has assessed over 7,000 fashion and beauty brands on their impact, powering sustainability solutions for global retailers and helping millions of consumers to buy better.

With a background in corporate social responsibility, Sandra has long been concerned with supply chain issues in big business. She started Good on You because she sees huge potential in using the power of consumer choices to drive industry's change.

I've used the app! I think it's such a good resource and I'm thrilled that we get the chance to speak with you, Sandra. So welcome to the show.

Sandra: Thanks so much for having me for that kind introduction. It's really special to connect with like-minded people, literally on the other side of the world, so thank you.

Aparna: Of course, listeners, Sandra's joining us from Australia. I think she's our first Australian guest, so excited to be breaking down these barriers. So Sandra, we'd love to start off with just hearing more about [00:01:00] you, so your journey to sustainability and your current role. Could you walk us through maybe from education, different jobs you've had and how you landed on creating Good on You?

Sandra: Sure. We don't have a lot of time, so to summarize. 'cause I feel like I've been learning and working towards this for, for a really long time. I was fortunate to have a, a good education. I mean, my, my parents were migrants and just dedicated everything to getting us into school and, and giving us lots of opportunity.

And, I think I finished my high school education here in Australia. Having no idea , what I wanted to do, but just , really valuing learning and, I studied business. I also studied arts because, you know, politics and economics interested me how the world works, what made people tick really interested me, and I think I slowly became more interested and maybe a little bit outraged. You know, what was happening in the world that I wasn't aware of, that I'd had this great education, and yet there were all of these issues , and [00:02:00] complexities , and nuances and, injustices that, I struggled to understand , and , here in Australia in particular, there's a pretty sad history of our first people, similar to many places in the world, but we have indigenous Australians who are still a very, underprivileged group in society.

Of course, there's many, strong indigenous communities, but I felt like I didn't have that education and understanding. So I learned a lot about that through my education and then after all of that, I, fell into my first job in, the banking industry of, of all things. I, I felt like I was going to work a bit in business and figure out what I really wanted to do. And then I had a bit of an aha moment, a year or so working , in business that, hang on a second, business can actually be a force for good and maybe there's a career for me to, advocate for things that I care about, like indigenous Australian issues like fairness and, and justice in in that [00:03:00] context.

And I actually ended up working in, a department that was all about creating financial products for indigenous communities about financial inclusion and using money for good essentially in the, in the banking context. , through that door, I learned more and more about corporate social responsibility and the role that business could play not just in. You know a moral obligation to do good, but actually in making business decisions that could be, good for people, good for the planet. And I actually ended up really loving my career in banking, because I had access to all of these amazing resources and people and was working on some really cool initiatives that went from indigenous affairs to women's empowerment , and fair wages to sustainability , and looking at environmental issues in supply chains supply contracts and making sure, you know, we were spending money for good. I did though eventually get tired of the corporate structure and felt like [00:04:00] things are moving really slowly and, I feel as though I'm often fighting still , for that cause as opposed to people really believing that it was important. And so I started looking for something else, something different. And I do believe it was a lot of luck right place, right time, where I met my now co-founder, Gordon Renouf, who was working on, the idea of what is now Good on You. He had this vision of making it really easy for people to know the impact of their shopping , and having at their fingertips sustainability information that could help them buy. Better. And a rating system that could make sense of all of these complex issues and injustices in the world and put it in the hands of, people that love but also care about the world.

And that just really resonated with me. It sort of brought together my education, my business expertise, my values, and and felt like [00:05:00] something, yeah, I, I could really contribute to. And, and fast forward to 10 years later, here we are still partnering and, and working on Good on You together.

Kiersten: What an. Journey. I'd like to go back a little bit into the middle where you mentioned you began to have exposure and kind of a secondary education to things happening in the world. We definitely want our listeners to have those same opportunities to broaden their horizons and experiences. So I'm curious, was it, a natural exposure in your work? Was there a defining moment or project that your eyes to the sustainability side of things?

Sandra: I think you used the word just now. It was a curiosity, a real thirst for knowledge and learning. An understanding that I didn't at all and wanted to understand why. And in particular wanting to understand , where power and influence came from and why there were communities, that were still left out [00:06:00] of, the discussion. I guess you know, goes back to my upbringing, seeing, and hearing about my parents' experiences as migrants definitely played a role in that. But also, yeah, continuing to have this good understanding and real education and realizing that there was so much to know and so much to, understand and appreciating the world, but also to question and worry about.

Aparna: I feel like that's the paradox that we all live in right now. We wanna learn everything, but you also wanna take a discerning eye to it. Not just like, oh, Lata, the sky is red today. It's like, Nope, the sky is blue, the sky is red because it's a sunset. You know, like kind of go along with those things.

Sandra: yes,

Aparna: And yeah, that discerning eye with fashion I think is so important and with all of these brands that we're bringing into our lives, bringing into our homes, and I would love to hear from you- just did your experience in fashion, like being a consumer, did that impact why you felt this pull to Good on You? Because thinking about ourselves here on the podcast, we tend to create tools that we ourselves wish [00:07:00] we had. So does that resonate with why you created or decided to join on with Good on You?

Sandra: Absolutely. I I've always loved fashion. I mean, I think fashion is something that's relatable to a lot of us. Maybe not the term fashion, clothing. We all wear clothing, most of us anyway. And , it's so closely connected to, how we feel, our identity, how we choose to show up in different circumstances . So it's, something that's really personal, there were also lots of personal connections for me. My family, my mom's first job in Australia was at a knitting factory not too far from where I lived today. And I had two older sisters growing up. So, you know, I wouldn't label myself a, a fashionist even, even today.

But I, I've just always had a real appreciation for clothing and I had a curiosity for all sorts of things. I, was taught to understand where things came from to think about who made the clothes. I often went to a dress maker with my mother for special occasions and we would get [00:08:00] things made. So I had a real connection to, fashion in the first instance. And then the older I got, and I was learning about all of these. Big social issues and environmental issues. I learned that fashion actually had, a huge impact on. On climate change, on, people's treatment in workplaces the fact that fashion is one of the most polluting industries in the world , is still very real if not more relevant today as when I first started learning about these issues, and of course many of us are aware about , the labor rights challenges deep in fashion supply chains. And that was something that I was hearing more and more about 10, 15 years ago and just thought , it felt so wrong that this thing that I loved and appreciated and made me felt good, was coming from a place that was harming environments. Harming the air that we breathe, the water that we drink in, some communities, and that there were people not being treated fairly in the very making of our clothes.

Kiersten: Such an important point. I do think [00:09:00] we are in an abundant state of information, but it's not always digestible or accessible. And transparency is lacking in a lot of industries, which I think is partially what's so great about Good on You and what it provides because it is so tangible and easy to use to say, " what is the impact of this brand?" And otherwise I don't know how as a consumer I would access that information. I know one other influencer who does like deep dives into the sourcing factories of big, fast fashion brands, but even she is only a few months into my feed, so you guys predate her by quite some time. But with that in mind, I do think we've said fast fashion and, just in case there's a listener who has heard it but doesn't really understand the distinction between fast fashion and slow fashion, could you define that for us?

Sandra: I'll try my best. , It goes back to what fashion used to be like, which was a very linear model and slower model of [00:10:00] seasons. Many of us recognize that there's fashion weeks all over the world and big fashion houses that traditionally used to roll out a range once, maybe twice, maybe four times a year.

And that became common, not just for the luxury houses, but for many producers of fashion. That started as a specialized artistry industry to, a bigger, model of these seasons. Then starting in the later eighties, early nineties some bigger fashion companies turned that model on its head by producing much more regular drops of product turning the linear production cycle into something that was much quicker, much faster, much cheaper. So we went from four seasons in a year max to some brands like Zara and H&M being able to drop products on a weekly basis. And that meant. In the [00:11:00] production for that to occur, the resources that were poured into it need to be really cheap.

People were paid less and things were being spat out at high speed. So you and I could access a, you know, $1 t-shirt , in a store. Some people see the benefit of that. It meant we had access to more things, more cheaply but , when you look at the model and what changed in the model, , there were a lot more costs , in the supply chain.

People were paying the price maybe not the end consumer, but the people that were making the clothes were really being squeezed on producing faster, more cheaply. And of course there's huge waste and environmental costs with that model. Today there's a term that's being used called ultra fast fashion. Maybe the likes of Temu that are able to drop new products on a daily basis, and it might be thousands of products.

These massive organizations are doing things so quickly they, can't even necessarily trace how a product [00:12:00] was made because it's just being spat out at lightning speed.

Kiersten: It's only getting worse. "Ultra" sounds like a nice adjective, but that is heartbreaking and it. Is again, so great that we have what you've created and Good on You. Because we're constantly hit with marketing, so we see the side of why fashion is desirable and why we would want clothing, but so few focus on the flip side of that and the seasonality. There's a lot of pressure we could talk about, social pressure to look the part. I think that's always been there, but now the part changes every day.

So if the price is low in dollars, you are literally saying , you can have it and then throw it away. You can do whatever. 'cause it wasn't very expensive in the first place, and you can get another one a million different ways by tomorrow. So. just had to add my thoughts there, but yes slow consumerism is by far better, and folks can use the app to determine which brands are not participating in ultra fast fashion.

Sandra: It's overwhelming, right? , I mean knowledge is useful, but once you dig into these issues, it can feel like a [00:13:00] lot. That is a big reason behind why we created Good on You. Because we don't want people to feel overwhelmed and just walk away from the issues. We know that there's lots of people like me that care but unlike me, maybe. Don't wanna do all the research, and when they do, they're not sure what to do with it. And so the whole idea was create a system that behind the scenes was really complex and, and, and nuanced in understanding these issues, but would present shoppers with information that was simple, acceptable, even a bit fun because fashion, is supposed to be, light and fun and, and engaging for us.

Aparna: I love it. You've given everyone something at the tip of their fingers, a personal sustainability tool, if you will, and hopefully something people can just bring up when they're at the store. Hopefully not AZA or in h and m, but. Something they can bring up at the store.

Kiersten: sponsorships.

Aparna: I know.

If you want to sponsor us, fix your methods, this will all be gone.

Kiersten: we would, we probably would say no for that reason.

Aparna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But yeah, it [00:14:00] is such a good personal sustainability hack that literally anybody could use. So thinking about that and on the line of personal sustainability, how other than, creating this tool for the masses, do you practice sustainability in your daily life?

Sandra: I think I just try to make thoughtful decisions. For me, sustainability is about slowing down a little bit, thinking around what's important to me how I want to live out my values through my choices. We are making. So many choices all the time from what we're eating for breakfast to where has the coffee come from that I'm drinking right now? What do I wanna wear today? And in those choices, I try to be mindful , and thoughtful in, choosing things that align with the things that I care about. You know, simple things , I try to avoid single use plastics. I don't eat meat because that's [00:15:00] aligns with wanting to protect animal welfare and the impact that I know meat eating has on carbon emissions. And, that's not to say that I think everybody should make, the same choices, but just that for me at least, it starts with understanding what's important to me and trying to live that out through those, those everyday decisions that we make, and recognizing that there is actually meaning in that, but also power in that when collectively we're all doing the same thing.

Kiersten: I love that and it's really cool just to witness to your start. Pretty diverse in terms of education. Definitely wasn't like fashion specific or developer specific, but here we are. Listeners, we are gonna take a quick break here, which is the perfect opportunity if you wanna pull out your phone and download the Good on You app. Highly encourage checking it out

Kiersten: [00:00:00] Welcome back listeners. We're still here with Sandra we've talked a little bit about her journey and the concepts and areas in which she works, and now we're gonna zero in even further and talk about her work.

So Sandra, if we were to follow you around for a day, your title is co-founder, what would we see in your day to day, just tell us a little bit more about if we were fly on the wall.

Sandra: Wow. I think it's, hard to pinpoint because it feels like a lot and every day is different. And I do like it that way. I think the role founder is about , rolling up your sleeves and. Putting attention on where it's needed most at that particular time, and being ready to switch focus based on, you know, what you're seeing, what feedback you're getting and, from the market.

I do actually spend though a lot of time like this , on. calls with people online because we are a fully remote digital team even though we have our humble beginnings in Australia, [00:01:00] we are a global team, 20 passionate sustainability people spread all over and technology has really enabled us to be global.

Lot, lots of time talking to my team online understanding you know, what, what are our current priorities and how are we going to get there? And similarly, many of our partners, the people that use Good on Your ratings to engage their communities, their customers, their shoppers. That's actually our core business model. We work with large retailers, e-commerce platforms, even shopping center owners who are using our ratings to make decisions themselves internally and, and engage their consumers , and customers. So. mostly overseas. Lots of conversations online, on the phone to understand, what are their current challenges and how does our solution , and the technology that we can offer plug into to help them achieve their sustainability goals.

Aparna: Awesome. Yeah, huge diversity, and I feel like that kind of keeps it [00:02:00] more fun, right? You don't have the same exact thing you're gonna do every day. It's not the same spreadsheets, it's different people, different topics, different market segments even. So Very cool. Thanks for pulling back the curtain a little bit.

And out of curiosity, if we were to have a list of just things like jeans and shoes, whatnot. Do you have certain brands that come to mind that maybe outperform others that are very sustainable, have a fantastic supply chain?

Sandra: It's really hard to, to name brands

Aparna: Yeah.

Sandra: because I think it starts with what do you wear? What's your style? What are your requirements around affordability and convenience? So, you know, for, me, I like to know about local brands here in Melbourne that are doing something different and within my price range. But I recognize that doesn't make sense for everyone. People can't necessarily afford the same fashion items that I can. And are more interested in brands from [00:03:00] DC or, supporting different things or different causes. What we're trying to show through Good on You and, and what I firmly believe in is that there are thousands of brands globally that are doing really great things. That are prioritizing sourcing materials that aren't harmful or at least lower impact than others. About working with their suppliers in a way that's super collaborative, super open , and supporting their workers. That's about promoting inclusivity or diversity , and offering sizes that work for all body shapes or designs that work for all gender types.

So , there's honestly, so, so many brands we've rated 7,000 fashion and beauty brands. So far. We wanna rate tens of thousands more because there's so many more out there. Within that, cohort of brands, there's definitely a lot , that aren't doing enough and that just shows that generally speaking, the [00:04:00] industry is not where it should be , on the most critical sustainability issues. But there's over 1000 brands in that cohort that get the highest two ratings , in our five point system. four out of four is rated good on, Good on You, and five out of five is rated great. So over 1000 brands , that people can choose from that might better match. , Their values, whether they care about environmental issues, maybe more than social issues, or , they're a vegan, and for them, animal welfare is a priority. Or , they're about choosing local things are, that are a bit more affordable. Things that match , their style. I also really encourage people to think about, buying secondhand. So maybe you have a strong love or affinity for a brand that doesn't quite live live up to your standards.

And a good alternative could be to buy that on a presale pre loved platform. Go shopping , in your local vintage store , and keep an eye out for that brand. Or [00:05:00] consider looking for alternatives if you are really wanting to buy new, just recognizing that, doing your best is still doing okay, so not necessarily striving for a perfectly sustainable brand, but choosing one that maybe is doing a little bit better than another is also a good step in the right direction.

Kiersten: Was recently Valentine's Day. Listeners were recording this in February. I have to say, if I'm like, suggestion boxing pretending to be you for a day, do you ever think you would make like a Tinder for sustainable fashion? Because I'm hearing, you know, you can, your profile is like, what's your style profile and you can have a slider for your geographic area or how much you value the things you listed, and all of the other parameters that you guys have data on, that would be so fun. Maybe as like a a 2027 Valentine's Day feature. You users could do a little quiz like that!

Sandra: This is so fun. You're making me laugh. I've not actually thought of this. I feel like I've thought of every possible idea when it comes to good idea because I'm living and breathing it day in, [00:06:00] day out. But you have actually on the fly just come up with a fun idea. Who knows? Maybe this time next year on Valentine's, we will have some fun piece of content at least!

Kiersten: Please let us know!

Sandra: Inspired by Kiersten, you heard it here first.

Kiersten: The Green Collar Pod brings you... yeah, that would be so cool. Well, I do have a question in that same vein for you, and that is, I mean, you did create something that didn't exist before. A lot of creativity there, a lot of utility that Aparna and I now use along with many others. So how do you see the intersection of kind of sustainability and fashion continuing to evolve and as a founder, have you noticed other holes in the market that you are working to address or, you know, throw it out there in the world, hope someone else will address?

Sandra: I feel like there's still so much to do. It's both the thing that worries me and motivates me is that, you the, the trend is not necessarily clear in terms of fashion becoming more sustainable. [00:07:00] While on the one hand I was just talking about how many awesome brands are out there that we should know about and celebrate it is actually really hard , to be one of these brands.

They're often small, trying to build themselves from the ground up , and sourcing things that are more expensive, are difficult to get their hands on and compete with these massive organizations with massive marketing budgets that are doing things at lightning speed that's hard to compete with.

So, you know, I think, the intersection is, is not yet in intersecting, sadly, and there's still so much work to be done to advocate , for change in this huge and hugely powerful industry. There also seems to be. You know, ebbs and flows in, in the sustainability conversation, not just in fashion, but in many different contexts.

And I think a lot of us in sustainability right now are feeling that, negativity a little bit and the burden of things maybe slowing down? When we [00:08:00] started, Good on You 10 years ago, it felt like there was real momentum and, and a lot of moving forward. It was an exciting time for, for sustainability and fashion.

. Large media outlets were picking up on a luxury fashion houses were talking about it. Big e-commerce platforms were, releasing conscious collections and, it felt really exciting, like there was progress and, in the last couple of years, it feels like that momentum has slowed down.

And we don't have time to get into why that's so, I think we all feel that though, , and can attribute it to many things in, the geopolitical sphere, in our personal lives, in our local communities, and of course in, in the global ones. But it, yeah, it can feel like a bit of a slog at the moment to be advocating for sustainability in fashion and beyond. I don't think that means that there's no hope for the future. I think it [00:09:00] is, like in many industries and markets and trends we're in a downturn and we need to get ready to pick things back up again with renewed energy.

, For us, that means continuing to recognize that there's a role for consumers as a role for business, as a role for regulators. And to think about how Good on You, can be positioned to help move those things forward, when the world is ready to act again.

Aparna: I feel like that is the universal feeling right now, and probably a person specific question, but you as a founder, how do you keep yourself motivated? How do you keep your team motivated, especially now when vibes aren't too hot but in these moments, are there things that you remind yourself about?

Sandra: I think it's really common for founders to feel like they're on a rollercoaster there, from the very beginning, there's always been highs and lows and what separates, many of us that have been successful or not is definitely a bit of luck and, and fortune, but also [00:10:00] resilience, and seeing that, when there is challenge it is an opportunity to pause and learn from that and, and redirect energy. And to do that with, call it resilience, , even a bit of optimism that things can turn around. It's also about, perspective and, and remembering that through all the, people that are taking advantage of others, and using their power for negative outcomes.

There are just as many, if not more people that are still, actively pursuing good. And, it's through, continuing to, to push on and create those human connections all over the world that I personally find energy and, and power and I think is really what connects my team. We're not in the same room, but through that , we find still that, human connection through our really regular interactions and by, continuing to see that there are [00:11:00] other great actors out there that care about the same problems and are trying to find a solution.

So there, there has to be a way.

Kiersten: Building on that you did say, you know. It's not quite an intersection, sustainability and fashion at this point across the industry, but I would love to know if there are any trends in the positive direction that excite you. For instance, I do follow some folks on Instagram that rescue, , close and upcycle them. So to me that's always nice to see people with those skills, using them in that way. What about you?

Sandra: There's loads! I mentioned before, the secondhand or resale market. It's one of the fastest growing markets in fashion and that's because more people are buying pre love clothes than ever before. It's partly because it's a more affordable option, but it's because people are thinking about where clothes comes from and how do I contribute to it being a less wasteful industry.

The idea of, circularity , is also more commonly spoken about in the context of [00:12:00] sustainability. And, that's where we are thinking about designing for reuse and repair and recycling, turning the system from something where we buy and dispose of clothing to how do we get that garment back into the system and reuse those materials again and lots of cool innovations in that space. I always love hearing about new materials! A big part of, the environmental impact of clothing is around the materials that have been sourced. Most of the materials particularly in faster fashion brands are synthetics or blended materials which are really difficult to recycle and go back into that circular system. And of course, they use a huge amount of water and chemicals and toxic materials to produce. So [00:13:00] the production process is harmful for the environment. And then they're not just disposable. They take many years to break down, and that also has a negative impact on the environment. And there's people that are handling these materials and all the toxic chemicals and they're often in that environment of needing to handle them in a really fast and cheap way. And the materials that, clothes are made from, is really closely connected to its environmental and social impact. So yeah, I love hearing about innovations. You know, people are making, leather in a lab which means , they're literally able to create something that has, has not had any animal involved in its production, but is chemically the exact same material as as leather. And, and imagine what that could do for shoes and bag production.

So many of us, own leather items, even if we feel like we try to avoid it. It can be a really beautiful and durable, [00:14:00] material that has been used , in fashion for centuries, I'd say. But it is currently very harmful again from an environmental perspective , and of course from an animal welfare perspective. But people are figuring out , how to make it in, in a science lab.

I, I went to one here in Melbourne, but it, you know, it's, it is a global phenomenon that many innovators are trying to crack, and I can't wait to see where that lands.

Aparna: 100% same. I was at New York Climate Week, last year, and I remember sitting in on the United Nations environmental program, they were essentially bringing a bunch of smaller startup founders and did a pitch competition to see whose pitch was gonna get them a very, very egregious sum of money, which is going to a good cause, but wow, so many zeroes.

But one of the founders, actually, two of them, focused in on bio-based materials doing fashion. And I believe the person that one had it was this really cool concept of using weeds, essentially things that are gonna be [00:15:00] growing in the lagoon, growing in the swamp, anywho harvesting that and using that for a great purpose like this.

It's something that you go by every single day and you don't really give a second thought to, but the moment you do, you open the door to possibilities. So I feel like you hit the nail on the head. That is such a cool trend to keep tabs on Sandra!

Kiersten: I hope they're invasives.

Aparna: They were, it just like growing without good cap. So helping everybody out.

Sandra: Not to turn this into a negative conversation, but vegan leather is an example of, of another area that's really complex once you start to dig into it, there's some criticisms of vegan leather that, obviously well intended do tend to use a lot of plastics and the production process can be quite chemical and water intensive.

And so, you know, some people might feel like they're making a good choice and then when they dig into the issue and start realizing that their vegan leather is actually not that good for the environment and they become overwhelmed and [00:16:00] disengaged. So, definitely, realize that not all choices are perfect, but , doing that act , of choosing something that is a little bit better than, what you know, to be harmful , is still a positive step in the right direction and using resources like Good on You. There's loads of also other great bloggers probably in your local community that are talking about these issues and helping to make accessible some of these really deep and convoluted topics.

Aparna: No, definitely. I feel like that's exactly where Good on You shines. It helps and guides the conversation and really simplifies this kind of scary market to start research in. Bring it back to you as a founder, as an innovator, and as someone who's so passionate about this space other than shopping secondhand.

And we would like to shout out a couple of brands here, ThredUp and Poshmark or some of our personal favorites, and having this curiosity that drives you, Sandra, what are some other skills that you think people need to have to follow in your footsteps? Any certifications that you think are interesting?

Sandra: You touched on this earlier that [00:17:00] I, didn't have a background in fashion or sustainability. For me it was, my thirst for learning and my passion for, justice , and protecting vulnerable things, including the environment that drove me and I think got me to where I am today. There is one skill that I think is really important and that's communication.

So much of what we do is influencing, it's bringing key people together. and, I'm also really grateful for my education. People often think that because I have a background in business, that's why I knew how to build Good on You. But , I actually think it was. , I started with my arts degree, , where I learned a lot about critical thinking , and how to communicate, things in a nuanced way depending on the audience.

And of course , through my work experience, I realized that, people , didn't value the same things as me and so being able to, influence and engage , different people in a way that was relatable, [00:18:00] sometimes inspiring, sometimes ruffling feathers. Just that ability to, empathize and tweak how you're talking in different rooms to me that's,, that's great communication. That's great storytelling and in some contexts it might be called stakeholder engagement.

Aparna: That's awesome. Thank you, Sandra.

Kiersten: Thank you. That brings us to a close. We are so grateful for you joining us today and, and peeling back some layers. Also, marking our entrance into the fashion side of things. We've had a lot of different professions on, but we have not yet had fashion.

So now we can check that box. Very exciting. And what a splashy way to enter that space. So thank you again for sharing your time and your wisdom with our listeners.