Ep#12-Doing Business in the UAE & KSA? Don’t Make These Mistakes | ft. Corina Goetz

What does it 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 take to win business in the Gulf?

In this episode, 𝗥𝗮𝘆𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝗲𝗺 sits down with 𝗖𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗮 𝗚𝗼𝗲𝘁𝘇, founder of 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿-𝗖𝗮𝗧—a UK-based entrepreneur originally from Germany who helps brands expand into the Middle East.

Corina shares her journey from the corporate world to consulting, and breaks down what most Western companies get wrong when entering gulf markets like the 𝗨𝗔𝗘, 𝗦𝗮𝘂𝗱𝗶 𝗔𝗿𝗮𝗯𝗶𝗮, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗤𝗮𝘁𝗮𝗿.

Spoiler: it's not just about getting a license. We talk about 𝘄𝗵𝘆 𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀 𝗺𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗰𝘁𝘀, how to avoid common cultural missteps, and how 𝗟𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗲𝗱𝗜𝗻 can actually open real business doors in the region. If you're serious about growing in the Gulf, this episode’s packed with honest, practical advice!

👉 Follow Corina Goetz on LinkedIn: https://shorturl.at/j69As
👉 Website: https://www.star-cat.co.uk

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𝗪𝗵𝗼 𝗔𝗺 𝗜?

My name is  Rayhan Aleem, Founder and CEO of 𝗧𝗮𝘅 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿 and 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮 𝗣𝗿𝗼 𝗣𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀. At  𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 podcast I sit with top industry leaders for in-depth conversations that dive deep into their success stories, market dynamics, and firsthand tips on entrepreneurship and profitability. Whether you're just starting out or already running your own business, 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 offers something valuable for everyone.

👉 Follow 𝗥𝗮𝘆𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝗲𝗺 on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3U2niHn
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𝗦𝗽𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗼𝗿𝘀:

𝟭-𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮 𝗣𝗿𝗼 𝗣𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀:
  -𝗪𝗲𝗯𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗲:  https://www.alphapartners.co
  -𝗟𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗲𝗱𝗜𝗻: https://bit.ly/3Yf4VRZ

𝟮-𝗧𝗮𝘅 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿:
  -𝗪𝗲𝗯𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗲:  https://www.taxstar.app
  -𝗟𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗲𝗱𝗜𝗻: https://bit.ly/3ZVjzPD

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𝗟𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗻 𝗼𝗻:

🔗 𝗬𝗼𝘂𝘁𝘂𝗯𝗲: https://bit.ly/47gaW3F
🔗 𝗦𝗽𝗼𝘁𝗶𝗳𝘆: https://bit.ly/3ZbtGiR
🔗 𝗔𝗽𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝗣𝗼𝗱𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘁: https://bit.ly/4dOfS2f
🔗 𝗔𝗻𝗴𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗶: https://bit.ly/3Mutunk
🔗 𝗔𝗻𝗱 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲!: https://bit.ly/3XfGYbD

𝗘𝗻𝗷𝗼𝘆𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗲𝗽𝗶𝘀𝗼𝗱𝗲? 𝗦𝘂𝗯𝘀𝗰𝗿𝗶𝗯𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 𝗼𝗻 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗳𝗮𝘃𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝗿𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗲𝘄 𝘁𝗼 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽 𝘂𝘀 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗰𝗵 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Intro
• 1:18 First Steps: From an Employee to Entrepreneur
• 6:03 Why she choose the Middle East and Star-CaT establishment
• 11:52 Top misconceptions about doing business in the Gulf region
• 21:26 Using LinkedIn to build a business network and get clients
• 33:13 Corina’s advice for new founders (and her favorite way to recharge)
• 56:57 Final thoughts, current projects, and how to connect with Corina

Transcript

0:00

It's also interesting because a lot of us think, oh my God, now I need to put myself out there What are people gonna think? What's my mom gonna say? And you kind of just have to get over this because at the end of the day, half the people probably don't even see what you do on social media And secondly, they don't care Welcome to the Alphapreneurs Podcast I'm your host,Rayhan Aleem,founder of Tax Star and Alpha Pro Partners Join me on each episode as we talk to inspiring Dubai based entrepreneurs who share their stories, challenges, and secrets on building world class businesses I am thrilled to have Corina on the show today She's the founder of Star Cat, a company dedicated to helping businesses successfully expand into the Middle East From cultural insights to market strategy, she works with entrepreneurs and brands to navigate the region with confidence Karina, welcome to the show thank you for joining us today I am super excited to have you here Do you wanna just tell us a brief about yourself, about your journey? I know that you went from a corporate job to setting up a business that's a big leap for many, for many entrepreneurs tell us about your journey and, you know, how, how you made that transition I mean, my background was always in like five star hotels and, I worked in there for a long, long, long time And, in 2015, well, I thi, I think I kind of knew a little bit earlier when, when I was in ind these jobs, I thought at some point this is not gonna last forever and I need to come up With some, with, with a different way of doing things But I think what was the real catalyst was my son'cause in 2015 he was three And and I basically thought there must be more to like work life balance, especially when you have a child And I think the only way Back then was really to have your own business so you could be in charge because you, you, you couldn't just find that in a job because you had certain requirements You had to be there in, in the office for a certain time because they couldn't treat you different to anybody else And and for me, working with sort of a lot of the golf market required a lot of flexibility In any case So I had to be on the phone in the evening I had to be on the phone on the weekend, but that didn't really reflect in what was happening, how I was working So, so I thought, well, at least if I have my own company, then I can make my own schedule and I can at least do, you know, the nursery drop off and, and pick up, which I did before as well, but it was a much longer stretch So, so that's Basically it was kind of born out of this necessity, I, I should say And, so now my, my company is called Star Cat And a lot of people always like, I don't really understand what, what is this, is this like a, a cat in, in the, in the space or something? I'm like, no, no, this star basically stands for five Star because I come from five star hotels and Kat means consulting and training Nice So yeah, I like your story and I work with lots of entrepreneurs and what happens is they go from a 16 hour a day corporate job to entrepreneurship, and they even work even more They, they have even, they work longer hours, they work weekends because they are the center of everything in their business They do sales I do Collection accounts, marketing How were you able to fix your schedule so then you are not working longer? Than what you was doing in a, you know, as, as, as an employee I think it's all about like prioritizing again, like I worked weekends before, but I just also never felt it was to my own benefit It was always for somebody else So at least if you do it as an entrepreneur, you know what you're doing it for So Yeah, I mean, I, I to, I totally agree I think, I think you just have to find different, different ways of how, you know, how to like work smarter Like I would work in the evening when my son would be in bed or I You know, I would work, I dunno, earlier in the morning, something, something like this and try and find a bit more of a balance And and I do agree with you because you do work more as an, as an entrepreneur because, just purely because I You're the only person in the business and, there's, yeah You, you don't have that corporate machine behind you There's no pr, there's no marketing, there's no, it, you kind of suddenly become everything But I think it's also, there's a bigger, there's a bigger purpose to it It's, it's your own Company and you know what you're doing it for and, and you can do it the way you want to do it If there's something you don't want to do, you, you're just not gonna do it I completely agree with that I mean, one of the things we do, what I do in my business is we work with entrepreneurs and we work with businesses, and sometimes you have really bad clients So we are now in a position where we can pick and choose who we work with So when, when we have a client that's really kind of being unreasonable, being narcissistic, then we have the ability to terminate them and not affect the business too much So, you know, I a hundred percent relate to what, what you're saying One of the things that Star Cat does your business, is it's quite interesting You, you, your Based in, in the UK originally from, from Germany And you are advising businesses to set up in the Middle East So whether that's Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, you have a lot of very, you have a depth of knowledge of the region, in terms of you being here, you understanding how to do business out here as well Tell us more about what kind of things you do, how you got fascinated by the region You have a lot of content on social media or about the region as well, which I like and you know, you have lots of fans, so congratulations on that Tell us more about that Well, I mean, it, it's really interesting because I sort of fell into this Middle Eastern region area, I think through my hospitality career and, It's, it's even more interesting to, like, if you look at how I grew up, because I, I actually grew up in East Germany and I was 12 when the wall came down And I had never met an Arab person in my life, until I came to London and started working in hospitality I mean, I worked a little bit in, in, in hospitality in Germany, but it wasn't really, that wasn't really the same So I came to London and suddenly I started meeting all these people from the gulf That, first of all, at that point I didn't even know where it was and secondly I like, I just, this was so alien to me Like I'd never heard of princes and sheiks and all these different titles and it had such a different culture to how I grew up I just couldn't, I just couldn't understand like what this was, what was going on But I learned very quickly and I also had a really, really good mentor at the time who had been at that particular hotel that, I worked at for like 30 odd years And then, and this was also, let's keep in mind, this was pre-social media This was pre 2007, so there wasn't that much information out there, and people just You had to learn by doing, or you had to meet people and understand So I would always ask him all these question, who is this? What family is this? How do you read the names? I don't understand Like, have they fallen out? Have they made up what? Like what has happened here? And he would be like, so patient and Blame me, all of these different things And, and that's kind of how I learned by meeting people, making lots of different mistakes and, and then getting really curious about the region And then my first trip to Dubai was in 2005, so that was a long time ago and it was obviously very different to what it is now Yeah And I think, I don't know It it like, I didn't even think about it much at the time In 2005, I didn't do any research I was just like, let's just go to Dubai and see what it's like I had no idea if it was, if it was dangerous or anything Like I was just, I was just very adventurous and I thought, oh, let's just go and let's see But I think What I also could see very quickly was that a lot of the people that I worked with, which were predominantly like European, British, you know, German, they just didn't really understand that culture, and a lot of them were very like, oh, these clients are so rude and, and the clients would be like, well The service is really crap But there was a real, like, there was a real breakdown of communication and I could really see that you could only bridge that by asking lots more questions And that's exactly what, what my company does now is sort of We advise companies more sort of on the cultural etiquette versus setting up companies I think it's more about like, how do you do business? Like how do you develop all these soft skills, you know, how can you really form relationships? Because that's essentially what I had to do for years to try and form relationships in order to get business, in order to, look after these people Yeah, no, I think that's, that, that is actually a really important Service that you provide because? If you go to Saudi, if you go to the UAE, there's lots of business service providers that can set you up a business and that's all they care about They just want to take the money, set you up, you got your license, they may help with the bank account You, you set up your own bank account, and then that's it You got your license So then what you need to, you need to do, you need to get some business in, right, because you are, you are paying a yearly fee for your trade license And I think what you provide, the service that you provide is super important because Yes there are lots of opportunities in, in this region because There's still a lot of services that, and products that are available in the Western markets that are not here And you can bring those products here and you can do really well But then how do you start that conversation? How do you meet the right people? How do you speak to them in a way that, is mutually respectful? Not just for them, but for, for them to you as well? and I think that's really important When you are trying to set up, and sometimes even I sometimes when I first came you, you, there is sometimes a harshness about the communication style, but what I've learned is when you speak to Like a local, and you are speaking in Arabic, for example It's a different tone to when they're speaking, to you in English, for example, because English is not their first language, so they can't add the, you know, the, the tone of their voice into that language Can you give us some examples of some of the misconceptions that, you know, a Western company comes into to the region? I Having the first meeting with, you know, a, a local, and it's not working out for the communication reasons or the communication barrier, can you give us some examples of what kind of things they should do and some of the tips that you would provide? I Sure I think the biggest one for me is essentially assumptions There's so many assumptions that Western companies make, and I come across this all the time I think number one is that everybody is the same And that's what I see time and time and time again So Saudi is the same as, as the Emirates is the same as Qatar and it's not Mm-hmm And I, and I keep saying to companies, you need to have a strategy for each country You can't assume And even within the country, so for example, in Saudi, you know, some of the regions, are very different Like Riyadh is very different from Edar Yeah So it's, and and also the people there are very different, but that's what a lot of Western companies don't understand They think they can do, you know, the same approach with everything and it just doesn't work And that's where a lot of them, I think, fall down in their marketing, in, in their whole approach and Yes, there is a lot of similarities with, with some of the religion, some of the culture, but I think you have to go in there really nuanced And and the same I think also applies to like seniority titles, the way, you know, some of the, the royal families are structured I think that's another thing that you have to look into a lot more and I think my biggest one that makes me laugh every single time Is when somebody says to me, oh, we met, prince Mohammed or Sheikh Mohammed, and I'm like, which one of the 10,000 there is? And they're like, no, no, but you don't understand We met like a royal prince I'm like, yeah, there's not just one So, you know, I, in Saudi there's like 40,000 members of the AL family as well, right? Yes, yes And you have to really know like who is, is high enough up the tree because not everybody is Yeah So it's, it's just very easy to go in there with that kind of Western mentality And I think when I look at Europe, I see we have so much work to do and But when I then look at the us, oh my God, it's even worse because they know even less because I think also geographically they're so far removed from the region and, and it's, it's very, very interesting how still to this day, I think we forget'cause we do a lot with, with the region But we, but we forget that you sometimes have to strip it back to basics, and you have to really go back to basics and say, this is what you should do and this is what you should look out for And please don't, assume everybody The same and, and just don't go in there with assumption point blank I think take your time to do some research and actually, you know, prepare yourself for these, for these trips Yeah Learn a little bit about what the countries are about, what they want to achieve and so many people still don't do this, so it's It's very interesting, I think how this still happens in this day and you look, you look at it, I even look at it from like the, the hotel perspective They still get this wrong and they've had these clients for, I don't know, 30, 40 years, and there is still so much more that could be done, that could be done better if they just try it One of the things that you, you've, you've, you've touched upon is, you know Understanding your, you know, your, your, your customer a lot better And one of the things that this brings, this reminds me of is I, I, I was sitting with a client of mine and I They're doing everything amazing in terms of business development, marketing, sales, but they're not closing and I said to them, I don't think there's, what you're doing is great, but now you need to look into the finer details to understand what moves the needle from a sales perspective How can you close more effectively? And I think One example that comes across my mind, which I've spoken to many people about is the full sense of security You get when you, you're sitting down with, you know, a head of procurement and they, they love your product and they say, yeah, yeah, we're gonna buy it We're gonna buy, and then they go cold and I think that's one thing that can frustrate a lot of people, but there's also a sense of being nice and accommodating and being polite and that's something you kind of have to break down and understand to then be able to know how to tackle that situation as well I'm sure you've come across many of those as well, right? Yeah, and I think it all comes back down to like, relationship building And this is what I hear from like my, some of my Emirati and Qatari and Saudi friends It's like that a lot of the Western businesses just go in For business Mm And they literally, they're like in and out and, and people then say to me, yeah, like the minute the business is done, they have no more interest in us And that's not how it works Yeah In this region, you need to keep working on this relationship And that's like also one of the things that, that we teach is that this relationship doesn't finish when you close the deal or when you had that initial conversation You need to work on this and sometimes This takes so much longer than you think And I always give people an example I mean, this is a, this is like a hotel example I used to go to this office in Abu Dhabi for five years, and I, I saw the people in there all the time because I wanted to get, like a booking from there at the time when I was in hotels And I was like, this is just never gonna happen But I kept going and eventually I did After five years, I got, I got the call saying, yes, we are ready to do this now So again, I think it's something Where you have to, but this also goes nicely back to entrepreneurship ship you have to be resilient and you have to keep going And it's not about a quick win I think a lot of people in, like in Europe, they think You know, we're just gonna go in This is like the region where we can make a lot of money and things And it doesn't always work like that Mm-hmm And it doesn't work like that overnight And I think what is so interesting now that you can also see in Saudi specifically, that a lot of companies have gone in there and they've overcharged and Saudi has now become very wise to this, you know, and and Like they've kicked out a lot of the big companies and they're now looking at, a lot more bespoke, things that, you know, where they're working with smaller companies because they can also see, and they've learned and, and it's, it's not that gold rush that everybody thinks it is it's similar to Soar in Dubai You know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, many companies came in and they were overcharging They were looking to make as much money as possible, but then Dubai is now matured and you can't just be any company coming in, setting up shop, and expecting to have a gold rush You do need to have world class products, world class services similar to Saudi now And that's just one of the things you need to be successful along with the finer tuning, understanding your customer, understanding, you know, their cultural sensitivities and understanding how to do business with them And once you've, once you've broken that barrier, it's very sticky You know what, yes, it took you, you know, five years to close that deal, but I'm sure that deal was A big deal and it, and it stayed You, you, you, you retained them for quite a long time Absolutely so, so yeah, thanks for sharing that Yeah One of the things I've noticed about you is you're quite active on LinkedIn, and you seem to be like the gold star when it comes to business development you build really good relationships You are able to meet lots of people You've got a wide network as well Lots of people know you As an entrepreneur, one of the things that we have to con constantly think about isn't necessarily the product and the process and the operational side It is we are the face of our business and people buy from us even though we might have a product So What kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs to kind of be a bit active on LinkedIn, work, on business development? what's, what's your secret sauce from, from that point of view? First, number one, I think with, with LinkedIn or any kind of platform, I think, I think you need to master one platform first and With that It's also interesting because a lot of us have that where, where we think, oh my God, now I need to put myself out there What are people gonna think? What's my mom gonna say? What's, my, my friend from school gonna say, you know And you kind of just have to get over this because at the end of the day, half the people probably don't even see what you do on social media And secondly, they don't care because they have their own life that's going on So whatever And even if they have an opinion If they don't pay your bills, you know, you need to, you need to pay your bills and in order to do that, you need to get visibility And I think before social media, we never had that we never had that platform We had to spend a lot of money to, I dunno, advertise or something And now with social media, that has changed because we are now in charge And a lot of these platforms obviously are free or you have a small charge, so you just have to put yourself out there and Talk about something that matters And I think what you, what you talk about, you don't have to reveal your, your deeper inner inner secrets or what's going on in your life You don't have to talk about all of this, but you have to find a way to kind of connect to the audience and to your ideal client And that if you can do that on social media, then that is very powerful And I think we looked at loads of different people that have done that really well on social media And you built up a present I mean, it was just so funny this week I was at Arabian Travel Market here in Dubai and I had, I think probably three or four people that stopped me and they were like, oh, I think I've saw you on LinkedIn I'm like, oh my God, this is, this is kind of wild So And they're like, no, but we really love the content and we, we love what you say about the region, and more people need to know about this And I thought, oh, this is actually really nice and These people had, I had no clue who, who they were and some of them were actually from the region One was from Saudi, I think one was in Emirati, who had a, who had a company And and I thought that was really nice actually It was, it was just so nice to feel that there is more people who see what you do and they appreciate it And that, and I think that's the other thing I think there's way more people who see what you do and appreciate Then that, then what you, what you think they are But that also, sorry to, to cut you off, but you, you raised a really important point The fact that random people appreciated your content means that you're very genuine, your content as well It's not like you are Sending Oh a hook and say, oh, pay for this, or buy this or subscribe to this You are giving genuine information and, awareness to Your audience and they're appreciating it So I think what you're doing from that point of view is really, really important as well And I think it's really nice because I also look at, some other people's posts, you know, so for me, this is the same thing I sometimes also need advice on things, or I need to find good people And it's really nice if you can do that on social media So I'll give you some more examples So there's this, there's this tour guide From Oman who's really active on LinkedIn, and I don't know, I think his post popped up a couple of times on my feed and I'm thinking, oh, this is actually really nice And I had, a friend of mine who, who said, oh, you know, you should really in Oman, I'd been to Moscot, but I'd never really Looked much more into further south And this friend of mine said, oh, you should go to Salala It's really amazing Yeah I was like, oh, I, okay I need to have a look So anyway, so then I thought, oh, there's this guy that I saw and he kept posting about different things So I reached out to him and I asked, I said, oh, can you give me some more? Can you gimme some more guidance on Salala? And then basically he put together a whole tour and we went there, I think this was two years ago and we went there and we had the best time and it was great And a similar thing happened to me in Saudi where basically I Wanted, I met this tour guide from Saudi on LinkedIn again, and I thought, oh, I wanna, this was last year I wanna do something else on, in Saudi and not just go always to Riyad and Jada and, and do the OB stuff And he said, oh, why don't you come to tfe And there's Rose season and that just coincided just before Arabian travel market last year And I was like, this is great Let me do that So I, he arranged a tour for me and it was the best trip that I had Oh my God I loved it It was so good and I keep telling everybody about it So now I tag him in all the posts If somebody asked me, oh, you know, what else should I do? Where else should I go? And and I've recommended him to loads and loads of people and people are like, that's amazing So my friend that I'm meeting today from New York, he said Oh, I saw that you had gone to like some other places how did you, how did you arrange that? And I said, oh, you must meet, Harlet, who I met on LinkedIn and I, I connected them and then, and then They did obviously business together So, I think this is the power of what we have now where we can help other people with business, but we can also share information Or I had another lady that reached out to me and said, because you talked and one of your posts about Qatar Library That actually inspired me to go and visit while I was in Dohan I was like, this is amazing So that made me so happy and I, I think that's, that's a different way of generating business, but also showing authenticity where you can show what you have seen and where you have been and, You know, it's, it, it's just beautiful And I think my, the best thing was, I think my friend from South Africa, she summed it up she said to me before, before I met you, she said, I was really scared I was at the airport in Dubai and I keep seeing all these men in white robes and I'm so scared that somebody's gonna kidnap me I mean, you know, given she comes from South Africa where like kidnapping is a thing Yeah She said, but your posts open my eyes and I see like you travel by yourself And I'm just like, wow Now I'm actually really inspired to go and I don't feel like this anymore And I think that's the power of social media So yes, there is an element of, you know, you want to promote your business, you want to put yourself out there, but you can also reach so many more people and you can actually make a real positive impact with to other people Yeah, no, I think that's, that's, that's a really good example of using LinkedIn and using your, your personal brand for a positive, positive impact in terms of business development, you obviously do a lot of offline and online activities as well What kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs in terms of Business development, you know, building relationships, especially within this region What, what's worked for you and what hasn't worked for you? What, what, what kind of tips do you have? I think you need to, you need to go and find your tribe And with that, again, I think sometimes that will take some time You have to find the right kind of networks And again, that's where social media is, is very handy because you end up meeting more people, but you do need to meet them in real life So like there's, there's nothing That can be replicated on Zoom or anything And that's very specific also to this area I mean, this area, this the Gulf region, they don't really like to do like Zoom and Yeah And, and I mean we, we did for a while during COVID Yeah To try and stay in touch, but, But you need to make an effort to, to do real life things and and I think that's very important for this region But what you can then do is kind of combine both of it, stay on social media, meet people there, and that's how you do business development But then also in this region The best business development happens when somebody invites you to their house, for example, like for a nice dinner or, I don't know, just for coffee, because you never know who you're gonna end up meeting because a lot of, especially a lot of the locals have what they call, and I'm sure people like the, the listeners from from this region may notice People here, the locals have what they call a magis Yeah You never know who you're gonna meet in there You might meet the auntie, the cousin, the friend, you know, all of these kind of people that maybe before you had never met And that for me is how I broadened like my network because I had never met half the family, but then suddenly I got invited to this gathering and here we are I have potentially 10 more clients And and I think that's really interesting to me because those are the people that you want to reach And very often I think, and again, this goes against everything That, you know, my, my German nature is where, where you think, you know, you need to give yourself a bit of time as well You can't just go there with an agenda and say, oh, I'll be there for an hour You might need to be there for three So I think you need to be flexible and, and make an effort Yeah, and I love, I love the fact that What you mentioned about LinkedIn and business development, they go hand in hand, but you can't expect the same results meeting people with LinkedIn So I get a lot of, entrepreneurs who come up to me and say, you, you're quite active on LinkedIn Are you getting leads? And I say to them, LinkedIn is not there for you to get leads It's there for you to build relationships And then off the back of that, you meet, as you said, you would then meet Someone that you've connected with and then that could then lead to business It might not, it might lead to them referring you to someone else So, so yeah, going back to your through one hour, maybe three hour meeting, flexibility So you're the second German on my podcast and one of the things I asked him, so he does business set up, and one of the things I asked him Sorry He, he's also was mentioning that there's, there's a lot of Germans who are coming to Dubai, because you're paying 43% tax if you are based, based in Berlin or whatever Oh, yes and he's 9% and a lot there For them 9% is reasonable How in, in, in this region, you, you know You set up meetings and you know, I, I'm come from a British background and obviously I'm quite, I, I, I like to make sure I'm on time and I schedule things accordingly How have you found the culture of, you know, being on time, obviously being a German, your You, you are literally there on the door I mean, today when you met me, you was here 10 minutes earlier than I, I'll use your, I'll use your slot So I was like, I need to make sure I'm here on time, if not earlier'cause I know you're gonna be here earlier than, than me how does that, how, how do you kind of, how how'd you overcome that kind of, time Frame difference between you and someone who's based out here and they're having to, they might be five minutes late, half an hour late, but then you scheduled an hour for a meeting, it ends up going into two hours or three hours How, how, how do you reconcile that? I think you just have to be flexible I think that's, that's the key And you can't schedule meetings too close to each other because I think That will put you in trouble and that will stress you out And, I mean I'm still early normally for my meetings and, but also here, like today I was early because I knew the traffic, like the traffic was just horrendous in the last few days So, so I went left extra early, but, but I think you just can't be too rigid and for me, you need to have like a list of clients that you want to see and Then I think you need to give yourself some room and you can't beat yourself up if something doesn't work or if somebody is 15 minutes late, 20 minutes late That's just the way it is there's nothing you can do about it And then add in the additional component of traffic, for example, here in Dubai and also like in Riyadh, this is a whole different thing Crazy I mean, the traffic is just mental And then you're gonna be fine And that's just the way it is And I think you have to prioritize, you have to know who is like your, a-list of people that you wanna meet, who is your B-list And, and again, the other thing is as well, you know, I, I, again, I had this conversation with a friend of mine and he said Oh, so now I'm going on this trip, and I started reaching out to people and it was, the trip was like two weeks away and I'm not getting any responses And I'm like, but you reached out to them two weeks in advance Nobody's gonna give you the time of date to two weeks in advance You know, you need to do this like the day before or something, or maybe two days before Max And he was like, yeah, I think you have a point I'm like We just kind of have to be flexible here Yeah You just, and it's, it goes against everything that I believe in that I, I love because I love being organized I love being same on time I love having a structure, in, in my meetings and, and getting, you know, getting the right stuff done, but you just can't do it here Yeah And you just have to adapt And this is the only way Because otherwise you're just gonna stress yourself out Yeah And I, I, I guess the reason why that is, in my experience anyway, is because yes, there's always a set agenda, but what happens is when you have a meeting and there's chemistry straight away, you're thinking about different things You're thinking about, okay, this opportunity, that opportunity, and I think you, you going back to your point One hour fine, but make sure you put a little bit more extra in because in that extra half an hour or an hour, that's where the real chemistry and the real juice starts coming out and that's something that maybe if you are in a traditional market, you may have to have four or five meetings before you get that kind of chemistry between you and, and, and your, and your kind of partner, right? business partner, but That's, in my experience, that's, that's basically where the real juice happens and the real magic happens And you want to be in that situation where that, where that happens as, as a business where you can then find opportunities, whether it's new business, whether it's, you know, it's finding new markets, making introductions I think, I think that's really, really important So, but not only that, I mean, I've been in meetings where the person has then said like the local, the Saudi or the Emirati, and then said, oh my God, you must meet my cousin He works for A, B, C, D Let me call him now and I'm gonna send you over now And I'm like, I And if I had too many more stacked meetings behind, I would've missed out on this And then you literally have to be able to on the spot say, okay, yes, I'm gonna go and meet your cousin because this is the opportunity I've been waiting for So, you know, if these, these opportunities are sometimes The best ones, yeah That translate into the best business because you get to see somebody that maybe was on your wishlist or subconsciously on your wishlist and you would've never had that opportunity And this is very hard if you travel with somebody, to explain that If you travel with a manager or whatever, like let's say a German manager who used to say to me, oh, I need to see your schedule Who are you gonna see? So we have enough ROI on the trip and I And I'd be like, oh my God Like, how am I even gonna explain this? We haven't got a set agenda and we haven't got a set amount of meetings We kind of have to just, you know, go with the flow here Yeah, no, no, a hundred percent agree So at Star Cat you provide, training for corporates and this training is to do with the etiquette and how to do business in, in the region What's some of the surprising things that Before I ask you that question, what kind of things, how, how does this training work? What kind of training do you provide? Is it in person, online? and what are the kind of, what are the surprising things that you've come across in these training sessions while you've been training some of the companies who want to enter this region? So, I think that training covers everything from, you know, culture What are the differences between the countries religion? What are the different royal families? How do you read the names? Like how should you deal with clients like this? Any, anything you can essentially think of, and I think what has been the most surprising is how little people still know I mean, you would think that people know a lot more with, social media and the media in general, but people just, I They just don't, and again, I think, you know, depending where the, where the training was, I think people still think that Dubai as a country, you have to like strip it back to basics and basically explain that there is seven Emirates and this is a Dubai is just part, it's just one of those and you know, there's, there's a lot more there, there's a lot more questions that people ask also, like how to dress, you know, will men even do business with women? Things like that So it's really, really, interesting, I think, and people still have a lot of Preconceived ideas of what it is like here in that region and how they need to deal with it But the other thing, aside from the, from the group training that we do is we, we now also provide like strategy and and sort of like marketing ideas for companies where they don't really have a plan They have, they have some clients from the region But they don't know how to market to them, when to reach out to them When is a good time? and That's, we just did a project last year for, for a company where we mapped out their whole strategy for 2025 and then trained the whole sales team and they were like, wow, mind blown, because we just had no idea All of these different things And what is really interesting, because one of the new components that I now also add to this is LinkedIn Because LinkedIn, for example, for Saudi is very strong and there's a lot of people on LinkedIn, and It's really funny because last year when I was at a conference, one of the people that looks after quite a senior minister in, in Saudi said to me, you know, before we do business, we check people out on LinkedIn And I was like, huh, this is interesting And I think that is so surprising to so many companies because they just don't know And people regularly say to me, oh, you know, LinkedIn is managed by hr And I'm like, excuse me And and they are, you know, they just haven't grasped how much of an important platform this has become And, How much more they can do with this and how they can use it for their business So that's also another angle that we now look at and we look at, you know, auditing all the, the social media and see how they can better reach their clients Because again, you know A lot of Western companies also think email is the holy grail for the Middle East And it's not, it's WhatsApp, but there's different, there's, there's different ways of how you can do it And you have to, you have to be more innovative And certainly if you look at London, you have so many coffee shops, you have so many hotels, you have so many different things So you need to do something different and you need to stand out And this is the only way People are gonna find you And I think, again, this is another, a misconception where people think, oh, you know We, we, we don't like, like the Middle East, they, they're not that like technology savvy and they really are And I keep saying to them, you know, like the social media usage in the Gulf is over 90% Yeah They know more than you do And that again, is just such, a mind blowing thing to so many people that have come across Yeah I mean, in Saudi, 50% of the population is under 30 I know and, you know, massive Adoption of, you know, Snapchat, Instagram All of the major platforms, they're, they're massive, on it And I think there was a report a few years ago that I read, and it was, you know, the Middle East is actually one of the biggest adopters of social media, globally and yeah, it just goes to show you, you need to have your profile updated, needs to be professional, all of the basics, needs, needs to be there Mm-hmm So then you are visible as well Mm-hmm It sounds like an amazing training, training for, that, that you provide Is it, do you, do you find that you, do you also get Eastern companies joining those trainings as well? Like from, you know, from Singapore, from, China? Have you tapped into that market or are you mainly kind of tapping into the Western market? I think at the moment it's, it's mainly, for sort of like the European, the Western, the, the US market But I'm having conversations with people that work with, with the Asian market Because I think they also realized that maybe the Middle East is a really good place to do business And again, I think, you know, if we look at places like, like China, they, it's a very different culture to the Middle East Not that I know much about Chinese culture, not at all But, but I think, you know, they might also need to have a look This region Yeah And, and see how they, they could do business And it just goes to show, because for example, Saudi signed a massive trade deal with, with China just recently So I think there's definitely potential there The whole thing is a lot more global nowadays Yeah Yeah That makes sense In terms of, your general perception of Entrepreneurs businesses who are based in Europe, what are the main markets that you see are trying to tap into to to, to this region? I, I know there's a lot of UK companies coming in start We're starting to get a lot of European companies as well A lot of my clients, quite a big concentration are actually Austrian Interesting Yeah But we're now starting to get more Germans and, and, and French nationals coming into the region What's your kind of demographic that you're working with currently? I I think it's a, it's a real mix of, of companies I think what is, what is interesting, I think the whole kind of wellness, longevity space is very, interested in, in this region and vice versa Yeah I think the, the region is very interested in what they have to offer and it's interesting that you said Austrian and and German because I think this region also sees them as almost a bit like, you know, there, there's good value there, they have good, like the products are made of good quality So I think it's a really, it's a really good fit Yeah, I think, and, I mean, I, I, in, in terms of British I, I think it's, it's probably more like innovative, food companies or something that is just really new that you haven't found in this region before Although I have to say, I think, you know, like now in Dubai, there's almost nothing that you can't find, right? Yep Yeah No, no, that's true That's true I mean, people ask me when they're coming from back home uk, do you want anything from the UK and I'm like, I can't think of anything The only thing I can think of is what sits, but that's because my kids love what sits and they can't find it everywhere So apart from that, everything else is here, which kind of makes it easy, easy for everyone in terms of your kind of experiences in Saudi, Saudi's, a, a booming market, Saudi's where everyone wants to go to Saudi's, seen as the next gold rush, in terms of businesses and you are able to help them set up there My experience of Saudi is, yes, there's lots of opportunities there, but at the same time, as we've mentioned previously, you can't just put any number to a contract or a product and expect them to pay for it what kind of very specific advice can you give to entrepreneurs looking to set up in Saudi? Obviously The, the setting up is more expensive than setting up in Dubai, for example, currently anyway, as we speak And there are, you know, 50% of the population is under 30 So some of the youngsters who are there, they're a bit more aware of the Western culture and there is a lot of Employees who work for government, who who've studied in, in the western markets, so that that kind of ice is almost broken There's also a lot of, lot more kind of expats moving out there as well so you'll find someone that you can, you can, you know, and there are I More and more conventions and exhibitions out there So you can go there and meet people and network as well But from, from, from your experience, what, what, what do you see the recipe of success in terms of, okay, I've got a business I wanna set up out there, I've figured out the, the regulatory loopholes now, now I'm ready to scale and grow my business what kind of advice would you give from, from that point of view? I think, again Like I said before, you have to, you have to prepare I think you have to, you have to understand what does Saudi want to achieve? What is vision 2030? You know, where would your product or your service actually be complimentary to that vision on what they want to achieve? So it's not just a case of you can, you can just walk in there and say, oh, this is what I'm selling and people are gonna buy it So I think you have to really, really do your research And then I think number two I would say is you need to be out there Mm-hmm You can't boots on ground Yeah You, you can't just expect to do this from the uk That's just not gonna work I And like you said before, I mean obviously I don't set up, companies in terms of like, you know, tax and bank accounts, that that's not what we do I think we, we just advise on some of the cultural, you know, some of the, what are, like the projects vision 2030 And, but I think you need to, in order to, to understand all the tax regulation and stuff, you need to, you need to have a specialist there who can help you And, and give you all the different options because also the options keep changing So it, it, it's not something that, you know, it's the same all the time I mean, the, this whole saudiization I just heard this week that I think some things have changed again and certain, job roles have to now be given to Saudi nationals Yeah And That was different from what it was three months ago So I think you need to have somebody who's there who can give, who is with the regulations on the ground And then I think you need to be there And if that means you need to be there, I don't know, two weeks every month I So be it Yeah Because again, there is just no way around that relationship building that trust building, that networking, that, you know, getting into the right rooms and it's a time consuming process It, it really is It's not something that's gonna happen overnight You're not gonna go in there and sign a $5 million deal overnight And you know, you, you go out there and think, oh, I'm gonna sign the deal on my first visit Well, you're probably not gonna sign it on the first visit You're probably also not gonna sign it on the second visit Maybe you will sign it on the 10th, but You just gotta give it time and you, you gotta work on this and you gotta work on your network There's no shortcuts Yeah No, that's very, very, very, important point that you, that you raise touching upon Saudi ization, and amortization you know, many companies, now have to also think about hiring a local in Saudi, the ratio is one to four Here it's 50 to one or sometimes 25 to one I've met amazing Saudi talent what's your, what, what are the opportunities that companies have to hire a local who, you know, born and raised in that culture and They, they can help be a ambassador for your company Tell us some of the experiences that you've, you've had from, from that point of view I think you had, you will find some really great people and you will find people like the locals that are very enthusiastic Yeah And, and I think, yeah, maybe it may take a little bit of time to, to find the right person, but I think, you know, the willingness is there and, and people really Stay proud of that vision 2030 I mean, I'll just give you an example I went to Jeda in February And I, they had this big exhibition, I think it's still on until the end of May called BI in, in Jada at the airport So like a big art exhibition and all the guides there were really, they were all Saudi Yeah, they were all young and they were so knowledgeable and their English was Incredible And I said to one of them, I said, where did you learn your English? And he said, oh, I learned it, by watching tv I was like, wow, that's amazing But also like he was so passionate about, about, you know, like explaining everything and explaining the culture And that again, I think is just such a small snapshot of what, what, what gives you a flavor of what is possible Mm-hmm And Yeah, it's not gonna be easy to find You're not gonna find the right person to start with, but you might just, you know, have to keep looking a little bit But people are there, they're willing, they, you know, they want to work Yeah And they want to, they want to showcase their country to other people, especially when it comes, when it comes to tourism And and then the other experience that I had, I was in, In diarrhea in also beginning of the year And we had a lady who showed us round, it turned out actually she was a princess Oh wow And she gave us the full tour of diarrhea And it was incredible I was actually with my son and my son was like, wow, she knows a lot, you know, so, and I thought that was just so beautiful And, Yeah, I, I, I think that would be my message I'd, I'd say, you know, you need to go and look and you need to give people a chance Of course, they're not all gonna have all the right attributes straight away, but you also need to put a, put a little bit, into training and, and helping people and I think if you can do that, then you also become part of the wider mission, vision 2030 and, and, and help them to where they wanna go And I, I think that's a great mission Yeah No, I think, it's, it's, it's a very, I In, in business, there's, there's a concept called BHAG, a big hairy audacious goal And their BHAG is the 2030 vision, and you can feel that the whole country's aligned with that and they want to get, get, get there and, and become, you know, a fully fledged economy that Competes globally and you can see that happening, and there's lots of green shoots coming out of there And, and, and I guess we can also be part of that goal as well We can also be part of that, goal as you know, entrepreneurs, business owners So it's super, super exciting to be in this region right now before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for joining me on the podcast I've known you for quite some time and you know, I love your content so I would also be one of those guy guys who taps you on the shoulder and say to say amazing content Thank you very much, Karina what's the best way that our audience can reach out to you? And, where can they find you? I think obviously on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn Like you, we touched a lot on this And and then the other place is my, is my website, which is star catco uk And yeah, that's where you can find me Cool, we'll, we'll have that in the show notes, so, so they can connect with you Thank you very much, Karina Thank you for joining us on The Entrepreneurs Podcast I hope you enjoyed the show Please subscribe and give us a five star rating and a review Your feedback is appreciated For show notes and more, check out the link in the description and connect to me directly on LinkedIn and search for Rayhan Aleem See you in the next episode