Why Most Family Businesses Fail At Succession Planning | Ft. Warsha Joshi

𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗱𝗼𝗲𝘀 𝗶𝘁 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗻𝘀𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺 𝗮 𝗯𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗮 𝗺𝘂𝗹𝘁𝗶-𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗹𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗰𝘆? 🤔 

In this episode, Rayhan Aleem sits down with Warsha Joshi, Family Business Success Mentor and Strategy Adviser at Dare to Scale. Warsha shares her incredible journey, starting from scrubbing raw materials on the floor of her mother's factory to becoming a top advisor for family businesses in the MENA region. 

She breaks down the critical difference between raising an "heir" and raising a "custodian", and why succession planning is about values, not just legal documents. The conversation dives deep into the reality of leaving the corporate world—where you go from being "somebody" to "nobody" —and explores the "Path of Least Resistance" mindset that helped her navigate life-threatening challenges without ever "fighting" them. 

This episode is for business owners, aspiring entrepreneurs, and anyone focused on building a legacy that outlasts them.

𝗥𝗲𝗳𝗲𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗲𝗽𝗶𝘀𝗼𝗱𝗲:

Warsha mentions the TED Talk “𝗪𝗮𝗻𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗚𝗲𝘁 𝗚𝗿𝗲𝗮𝘁 𝗮𝘁 𝗦𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴? 𝗚𝗲𝘁 𝗮 𝗖𝗼𝗮𝗰𝗵” 𝗯𝘆 𝗔𝘁𝘂𝗹 𝗚𝗮𝘄𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗲, highlighting why even experienced leaders benefit from coaching, external perspective, and continuous guidance.

𝗪𝗮𝘁𝗰𝗵 𝗶𝘁 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲: https://bit.ly/4r1snxB

👉 Follow 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝘀𝗵𝗮 𝗝𝗼𝘀𝗵𝗶 on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/4bcRHw2

👉 Learn more about 𝗗𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗦𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲: http://www.daretoscale.com/ 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

𝗪𝗵𝗼 𝗔𝗺 𝗜?

My name is  Rayhan Aleem, Founder and CEO of 𝗧𝗮𝘅 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿 and 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮 𝗣𝗿𝗼 𝗣𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀. At  𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 podcast I sit with top industry leaders for in-depth conversations that dive deep into their success stories, market dynamics, and firsthand tips on entrepreneurship and profitability. Whether you're just starting out or already running your own business, 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 offers something valuable for everyone.

👉 Follow 𝗥𝗮𝘆𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝗲𝗺 on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/49yyO4n
----------------------------------------------------------------------
𝗦𝗽𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗼𝗿𝘀:

𝟭-𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮 𝗣𝗿𝗼 𝗣𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀:
  -𝗪𝗲𝗯𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗲:  https://www.alphapartners.co
  -𝗟𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗲𝗱𝗜𝗻: https://bit.ly/3Yf4VRZ

𝟮-𝗧𝗮𝘅 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿:
  -𝗪𝗲𝗯𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗲:  https://www.taxstar.app
  -𝗟𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗲𝗱𝗜𝗻: https://bit.ly/3ZVjzPD
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
𝗟𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗻 𝗼𝗻:

🔗 𝗪𝗲𝗯𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗲: https://bit.ly/4nmA53y
🔗 𝗬𝗼𝘂𝘁𝘂𝗯𝗲: https://bit.ly/47gaW3F
🔗 𝗦𝗽𝗼𝘁𝗶𝗳𝘆: https://bit.ly/3ZbtGiR
🔗 𝗔𝗽𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝗣𝗼𝗱𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘁: https://bit.ly/4dOfS2f
🔗 𝗔𝗻𝗴𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗶: https://bit.ly/3Mutunk
🔗 𝗔𝗻𝗱 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲!: https://bit.ly/3XfGYbD

𝗘𝗻𝗷𝗼𝘆𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗲𝗽𝗶𝘀𝗼𝗱𝗲? 𝗦𝘂𝗯𝘀𝗰𝗿𝗶𝗯𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗔𝗹𝗽𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗲𝘂𝗿𝘀 𝗼𝗻 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗳𝗮𝘃𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝗿𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗲𝘄 𝘁𝗼 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽 𝘂𝘀 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗰𝗵 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀! 

Transcript

0:00

For the new person coming in, first and foremost, it's never, succession planning is way more than having documents and getting them signed It starts years and years before that document even is surfaced So the mentoring, the grooming starts well before that So accept it for what it is Welcome to the Alphapreneurs podcast I'm your host, Rayhan Aleem I'm also the founder of Alpha Pro Partners, a bookkeeping business based in Dubai and Tax star, a tax technology startup, automating corporation tax returns Join me on each episode as we talk to inspiring Dubai based entrepreneurs who share their stories, challenges, and secrets on building world-class businesses I am thrilled to have Warsha Joshi on the show today She's a family business mentor, a multi-generational family business coach, and an advisor with over 40 years of experience She's built and exited three businesses of her own and even grew one to be a top 10 Great place to work in the MENA region these days She's known for guiding founders, second generational leaders to find clarity, break patterns, and build businesses That last Warsha, thank you for joining us today Um, it's been quite some time since, uh, I've, well, I, you invited me to your podcast and I had to repay this favor back, but more importantly, there's a lot of insights and a lot of things that I want to kind of dig in and kind of share with the audience Um, I've known you as a, a mentor and a coach, so you've, you've helped me in my journey as an entrepreneur Um, you know, you've gone through quite a few life changing things as well, and I, I wanna touch into that if, if that's okay But before we go into some of these topics, let's get like a quick introduction of who you are and you know, what you've done You're third generation, you know, family business Yeah Um, you know, you've done business here, you've been in Dubai for quite a long time Um, yeah And, you know, born and raised in India Um, married an Australian, Evan Hi Evan Um, so yeah, so tell us more about yourself So, yes, you're right Uh, lived here for a very long time This is my 30th year Oh wow In the ua And um, this country has given me a lot And this is our time now to give back to this amazing space So I've seen some changes here Yes Um, I, you are right I'm third generation in my own family business and That is exactly why I do what I do Mm Is help family businesses in training, mentoring, coaching, and preparing the second generation or the third generation, whatever the case may be, to actually come on board And I will talk a little bit more about this, not just as a successor, not just as an heir to what has been built Mm But really as a custodian of a legacy or a family business that is built for legacy So, and that's a very different mindset that goes into preparing the next generations for that Yeah And I, one of the biggest reasons why I do this is because I see that is the one step that didn't happen in my own family's business So that's a very real thing across the world The more I started digging into it, the more I saw that this is not a space that has opened up for conversation Mm-hmm So I thought, well, you know what? Here's my opportunity Yeah And I remember you telling me once you actually from a young age, you used to work in your family business I did Tell us about What you used to do and how, how you learned the business as you were studying as well at the same time Yeah So even as a young child, so we had, we had two branches of the family business It was my, um, paternal line and my mom ever, the entrepreneur, she had her own business She used to run an electroplating shop, so from silver to nickel chrome to from truck parts to jewelry She had a full on setup going And it was a thing you'd come back home from school, you'd change out a few uniform and you go straight in and you sit on the floor and start scrubbing raw material that has come in for, for plating Mm-hmm And that's how it first started for me, that no matter what, you start from the ground up So that was my induction into business But from there it started learning about how people are possibly the most important thing Or most important aspect of your business and how people in your business play a very different role in a family business unit as opposed to what we now know as a corporate culture and a corporate structure So how do you look after your people? How do you build trust? How do you build that loyalty? How much do you give in order to, to build that loyalty? So it was a, it was a very hands-on experience for me The other side of the business, um, was entirely different It was private banking, gold trading, and back in the day it was literally gold trading And, um, along with that was a cast iron industry, so it was, again, manufacturing processing plants So had quite a varied experience, if you will So even right from, from children as children, I have two older sisters and they both run their own businesses Mm-hmm So that's, that's pretty much what we do But right from the beginning we were encouraged to always play a role There was no part of the business that was inaccessible We were encouraged to ask questions We were, it was an open conversation right at the dinner table And so that's how I actually got into getting to know what business is like I just want to add, at this stage that drew my entire life's work of loving business for the sake of running a business Mm Because running a business is an, is an art, it's a science, it's a skill, it is everything And then some So it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what the business is about, but you've gotta love running a business Yeah, a hundred percent I mean, I've come across entrepreneurs who hate their business Yeah So, um, and it's, you're kind of stuck when you get to that point Yeah Because you've got this business and it's running, it's got employees, it's got customers, it's got Suppliers and you are part of this ecosystem and you need to be able to keep it running even though your heart's not in it Um, and I really kind of, for me, if, for me to be in that state is quite depressing 'cause Yeah You know, I started as an employee and then I set up my business and for me that was an amazing journey and I enjoyed that Um, and when you see that it's quite, it's quite a, um, a sad it is position to be in Very stressful Yeah It, and it, it's quite depressing just to watch somebody be in that position and it doesn't even come close to what that individual is going through Mm-hmm And that's got ripple effects It carries on beyond that individual goes on into the rest of their organization, their teams, their suppliers, you name it But more importantly, back into their private lives Mm-hmm Their families, their social life, their friends Everything is affected So it's, you've got to love running a business Yeah' cause it's complex Yeah One of the things I wanted to talk to you about is, um, a lot of our guests, they've come, uh, and we've spoken about the journey from, uh, employment to entrepreneurship Mm-hmm So I've been through that journey Yeah But you've actually done the opposite You went from your family business and then you went into employment I did for a bit Um, what, what was your thinking behind that? Why, why did you want to leave the family business to, to get a paid job? And what did you learn as an employee that you didn't learn running a business or being part of a business family? What, what are some of the insights that you came across? That short span of being employed was when I was finding my feet in the ua Mm-hmm Finding my feet in the new country, always knowing that this is only a phase This really is to, um, build up enough capital to start again Mm-hmm So that was never the, the big game changing plan ever Um, what did I learn from it? Um, a very strong realization that I do not like this I am not cut out for this This is not what I want to do in life But it, it's a wonderful experience just to see what it's like on the, on the other side Mm-hmm So, um, so that was, that was really a phase to settle, if you will What are some of the things that you didn't like being as an employee? What were the, some of the things that you didn't enjoy doing or you didn't enjoy? It's not so much about what I didn't like about the work, it's what I didn't like about how the human element is taken away Mm And it's a, we're complex beings and somewhere Within that corporate structure, we cease to be recognized, seen as human beings with all our complexities Yep But we're expected to fit into some sort of a mold that matches some someone's idea out there And you put into this, this, this ladder, if you will, because if you're not growing, then you're stagnant And then it's a lot of social conditioning, it's a lot of cultural conditioning that is, that is drilled in And I think, well, this can't be it There is more to life We are all, as human beings, we are capable of creating the life that we want So where is that freedom? It's interesting, we talk about this I, I took an Uber over here and I had a, a chat with my Uber buddy and we were talking about exactly this, but we all are born with immense amount of capabilities Mm So what stops us from Going ahead and achieving this dream So that is, that is possibly one of the things that I thought, no, this is, this is not because I've never known living within the such rigid confines, if you will Yeah I thought, I, I know I'm better than this I know I have the capabilities, but somewhere you either got to diminish those capabilities or diminish that voice or lower that voice Yeah To fit into something I think Well, no, thank you I'm forever grateful for those opportunities that helped me set up That wasn't the life for me Yeah No, I, I, um, today I had a meeting in a large corporate office Yeah And I was walking through the office and I could see everyone's got their head down and, you know, working away and Yeah Um, kinda reminded me back of, back in the day when I was in corporate as well, and I just couldn't Work in that environment anymore? No, because, um, I like interacting with people Although I'm an accountant, I do like in interacting with people Um, I do like, you know, a bit of banter here and there Yes Um, and I could see it's not something that I would, that would resonate for me But I mean, for that employee who's looking to set up a business and they're in that corporate environment, what would you say is the key things they need to think about or work on to prepare themselves for entrepreneurship? Because it is a big, a lot of, um, a lot of employees who become an employee who becomes an entrepreneur, they might be technically good at something So in my case, I'm an accountant, right? Yeah Um, and I bought, built a business around it You have, but quite well done and brilliant business quite successfully Thank you very much And very easily done It was not easy It looks quite effortless Yeah From the outside there's a lot I duck a nut on the water in my legs, just swimming like mad What are the key, if, if, if, if you was to advise someone who goes from, um, uh, an employee to an entrepreneur, what are the three key things that you would advise them to prepare for or be ready for? Um, coming out of the corporate culture and going into the big, bad world of entrepreneurship, the big, beautiful world of entrepreneurship, you're coming out of the big, bad world So first, and one of the crucial things to understand here is when you get out the corporate world, you're a small part or whatever part you are, but you're a part of a very large machine that is run by somebody Mm So we somewhere you gotta be prepared for getting out of that comfort zone, knowing that there's, there's a X amount gonna drop into your bank account every month'cause somebody else is making that happen So when you leave that and say, well, I I really don't want to work for this organization or this particular individual, I'm gonna go do this on my own because I, I'm capable and I'm better at this Forgetting that you are for the, probably the first three years you will be doing everything from sweeping the floors to putting a suit and tie on and shaking hands to get business So you are literally gonna be doing everything You're building relationships, you're maintaining relationships, you're delivering, you raising invoices You are everything that whoever was doing to make sure you get your salary You are now it, and most people are not prepared for the immense amount of work and the pressure that goes with it Mm-hmm So first Get to know and be really be prepared to sing What am I actually getting into? Am I getting into business to get out of what I think is, is very solid confines that I'm sitting in? Or am I going in to say, I'm done with this and I'm prepared for this and I'm going to learn along the way? Because the corporate culture also puts people in some sort of a comfort zone And I've noticed this quite a bit because titles mean a lot When you grow through the ranks, you are, you get your corner office, you get whatever office you, you get into a comfort zone knowing I am somebody And when you get out and you start fresh, you are nobody Mm-hmm And you've got to start from fresh So you've got to be prepared to leave that mantle away because when you are here, you are everything You are the name, the face, the brand, you are everything So that's point number one Point number two Is when in a, and this is so interesting, within a very close network, I've seen this happen so many times People come out of the corporate scenario and they're not, um, when, when in a job you're not equipped to go out and expand your network You mix with the same people You go out with the same people and you have your social network But put yourself in a room full of absolutely fresh people and say, now go out and network and get business in We're really not equipped for that Mm 'cause we're not trained to ask for business We're not trained to sell because selling is an art Selling is a, is a mindset So expanding your network becomes a very big part of getting out of your comfort zone as well, because that's where the real magic is You gotta get out more And get out from behind your laptop or whatever it is that you work in and go out, put yourself out there And third, most importantly, people love what they do They just don't like dealing with people When you run a business, you're going to have people there, you're going to have to shift from being a technician to actually becoming a leader on your own, right? Mm-hmm Becoming a great team I don't wanna say team player, because such a, it's, it doesn't really expand the whole complexity of what it means to have it, to bring people into your company, help them grow, build them to a stage that everybody is running the company together with full accountability And it takes a special kind of awareness, self-awareness, to raise your team to that level So it's a, it's a massive learning curve to be prepared for that I'd like to add, um, obviously, um, one thing that I think a employee should have when they transition to becoming an an entrepreneur is, you know, someone like yourself, a coach or mentor, to help them, uh, go through that journey as well Because for me, many entre, you never know, no one ever has the right answer of what to do, right? And, um, when you are going through uncharted territory, co the coach and mentor may not necessarily have the answers 'cause you probably have the answers, but they will help you find those answers that you need to help you grow and, and help you succeed in what you're trying to succeed And not only that, what they also help you do is They can watch what you're doing mm-hmm And give you observations So, you know, world class athletes that will have coaches, whether you're Michael Jordan or totally Tiger Woods, or you know, Louis Hamilton or, yeah Christiana Ronaldo or Messi From your experience as being a coach and, and, and a mentor as well, how have you seen that change in entrepreneurs? You know, you've, you know, you've coached me as well, you've mentored me, um, and a few others that we know Mutual who are mutual friends How, how do you see that play out as a, as an entrepreneur looking to get a mentor or a coach? What kind of things should they think about and can you give us some examples of mm-hmm A success story of what, how, how that has played out? First of all, thank you for picking up that it's always useful to have a coach Everybody needs a coach What? Whatever you do in life Mm Because a coach or a mentor Possibly brings up a couple of things One, a mirror to hold up A mirror to say this is what's actually happening So it leads quite, um, nicely into that self-awareness space that I was talking about earlier Second, there's always an external perspective What does it look from the outside? And at this point I also wanna mention that is a, there's a video that's circulating at some point I'll send you the link There's a, there's a very short, I think it was a Ted talk by, um, a surgeon in the us Atul Gawande And he talked about why him as a surgeon, got a coach It's top of his game, but he got a coach and he's an employee basically as well Exactly, yeah But he got a coach and it was, there were lots of questions to think, well, why do you need a coach? And he actually did a whole TED talk on that Mm-hmm He says that I got a coach because the coach was watching how I even hold the scalpel and how I make a cut And was watching and making fine tuning, precision tuning, even in that, I says that is that that pretty much meant saving someone's life Mm-hmm So why wouldn't I, and I cannot rest on my laurels to say, I've grown up to here, and of course I know what I'm doing because then we get complacent So it's just, if you haven't seen it, it's just a, it's a short clip, but it's absolutely brilliant We'll share it in a, in the, in the, in the show notes I will Yeah And I'll send you the link It's fantastic And, um, so on that note, yes, because most entrepreneurs, first and foremost, the, the whole coaching and the mentoring spaces gained a whole lot more awareness than it ever was before So people are more open to being coached asking for help'cause again, that's the vulnerability that used to come up in, in the last decade or so, that Why am I asking for help if I ask for help? If I get a course, that means I'm not able to do what I'm doing Mm So that has changed dramatically And it's, people are more open to listening People are more open to learning now, and entrepreneurs even more so because they also have got to a stage where they realize that when you start a business, people's lives depend, depend on you So your mistakes are going to have a very strong ripple effect across everything that they do So why wouldn't you get a coach? So you asked about a success story There are so many, and even in the, the smallest sense, and I wanna move away from coaching a, an entrepreneur purely on business because I wanna open a different aspect of coaching There is a particular, um, first gen And now it's good 20 years into, into business And, um, I've been coaching him for a while now One of the earliest scenarios that happened was why I was brought in was it there was a pattern that was showing up Now the data tells us what is happening, but the patterns for me as a coach tells me why is it happening? Mm So the business would grow up to a certain point and then collapse, build it back up again It would grow up to a certain point and collapse And naturally we would then look at external factors as there were the marketers, this, and, um, the price is this, and there's just the taxes And there, there's every external aspect that is put on the table to assess, evaluate, dissect everything And yet the code wasn't being cracked So I sat back and I had a very long conversation, two or three, and I said, okay, so I want to put all the external factors aside just for a bit Talk to me about you, because again, we forget the complexity that us as humans bring into our business And eventually what came out of that, those conversations was there was a block on expansion There was a fear of success So this is a mental block This is a mental block Mm-hmm Because didn't know how to handle success beyond that point, because that meant more complexity coming our way and didn't want it, never said it out loud, but knew that didn't ha, didn't know how to handle, so didn't want it Mm-hmm It was such a big revelation Alah, he is really grown This has now gone into a multimillion dollar expansion and it's cracked well beyond that all because it had very little to do with external factors It was, we are humans and we bring all our baggage with us to work So coaching goes well beyond the mechanics of business It really is training you, mentoring you through, in spite of us, how do we get to that success point? Yeah, no, that's great Great story Great point Yeah So Warsha, um, you are an expert in family businesses You know, you've been your third generation family business, and as you mentioned, your man, your, your mother and your father also had businesses as well I wanna dig into a few kind of, not controversial, but a bit more deeper topics around mm-hmm Family businesses and what goes on Obviously, even if you don't have a family business, when you're, when you're talking about money and family, it's still a difficult topic to talk about And now you have a business and it's a lot more difficult There are now, as we discussed offline, um, there are businesses that are, that don't have a succession Yeah Um, and there's a wealth transfer happening of this decade as, as you mentioned, but, you know, there's a, a new generation, um, and I may just come out university and my father or mother will have a big business and they want me to go in, uh, into that business and start, you know, learning the ropes and maybe at some point take over you having worked with lots of different family businesses mm-hmm What advice would you give that 20-year-old who's just about to step into the family business full-time? They may have done, you know, bits and pieces part time Now they're going in full time Yes How can you prepare them for that? What, what, what kind of things do they need to be prepared for and how can you set them up for success? I give a as near a real life experience as I can So, um, first and foremost, again, remember we were talking about leaving that mantle out So when that 20 odd year old, um, young second generation steps into the family business, um, do start from the ground up to get to know not just the ropes of the business, but really shed that mantle that you are, um, the owner's successor and start from the ground up like any other employee There are two parts to this One, it's a great e equalizer Second, it goes a long way into building the trust and the loyalty Of the people who've been there for in a lot longer probably than how old that young individual is Because gaining that loyalty is a make or break of eventually, and the success of that, um, that individual taking over And the second is also understand that you are not the heir, your successor Sure you're taking over from somebody But family businesses, anybody who runs a family business is a steward because in a sense, a family business while it succeeds, it's a legacy that has been carried through from however old So you look at some of the really old family businesses in existence across the world, some of them have been around for at least a couple of hundred years So why do they succeed? Because whoever sits in that chair is groomed for stewardship, not just for succession You are a custodian of what's been built You're preparing that business to succeed in your times and for the next 50 years So then you can also do the same for your successor So remember that when you are stepping in, you are not stepping in because you're the owner's, somebody, but you are, you owe it to the business to be a steward So humility goes a long way Mm, into taking over Because family business operates in a very different value systems It's a very strong value-based business It's a very strong conversation Trust, loyalty, human, human oriented business So for the new person coming in, first and foremost, it's never, succession planning is way more than having documents and getting them signed It's, it starts years and years before that document even is surfaced So the mentoring, the grooming starts well before that So accept it for what it is Sure You will have your, your ideas Sure You would want to implement them Sure You see the world in a very different light from what your previous generation did Mm Everything is on the line and everything is on the table The second thing also be, be fearless about establishing your own identity So there is, there's a, it's a very fine, fine line that initially you're walking because A, you want to respect the blood, sweat, and tears that went into building the initial stage of the business And at the same time, you also see certain things that can be done better This happens, um, when you are six, eight months a year into the business, and suddenly you start saying, well, why do, why are we still doing something in a way? And then the baton passes on to the older generation or the, the original founder where letting go becomes a real issue because while you trust your successor, while you, there is an immense amount of trust because this is family Mm-hmm But the trust and the respect hasn't been earned yet So Back to the successor Know that you've got to earn that space for yourself Yeah You gotta earn the space, not just for your, for the parents who have started the business, more importantly for their trusted people within the business because they've, they've given their life towards this business So work, walk that fine line, put your ego out out of the door Leave your ego in the car or whatever it is, and come with absolute humility, willing to learn the ropes as a custodian, because the more you show up as a steward, the better your chances are of that integration happening sooner and smoother than ever I wanna flip this question now Yeah Um, 'cause you got me thinking about my business Oh yeah And so I'm the FII don't have, I didn't inherit my business, right? Mm-hmm I, I'm a founder of mm-hmm My, my business And I guess the natural, I don't think anyone plans to have a family business I think it just happens, right? It just happens Um, you know, you start the business, kids grow up, Hey John, why don't you come into the business? Um, or John probably says no, or you bring your wife into your business or your husband into the business Yeah Um, you may bring a nephew or niece, um, and I guess no one ever sets up a business knowing that the family's gonna go in No But do you, and we know the pros and cons, right? If you've got a family business, you more aligned to make it work amongst other things But the downsides are, I mean, you may be slow to making decisions and you know, there might be certain egos you need to massage and you don't have a choice You know, a family A family I went to a talk once by, um, a Kareem Uh, employee Mm-hmm And he said, Kareem's not a family It's they're champions Yeah You can't fire your family Yeah But champions, they are looking to, um, they won't be world class champions Right And the moment you're not a champion, you're not part of the organiz Yeah You know, you're not part of the organization or, or the culture So do you think entrepreneurs should actively plan, should I get my family to come in? Or should they think about, okay, I need to get my key execs to be, you know, leveled up, promoted so then they can continue the stewardship of the business? What are your kind of thoughts behind that? Um, both depending on who's in your family Mm-hmm Both depending on how you see this business growing and becoming your legacy So if, and you are right Expanding within the family is way more complex than it appears from the outside, because then you have siblings and you have extended family, and then you have shareholders, and you have shareholders bored And it's just, it's, it's, it's a, it's wonderful And yet it is so complex Mm-hmm So it depends on whether you want go down that road, but as you very rightly said, as a first gen founder, what is the next step getting your key exec? So what, who sits in that place is question number 25 down the line Yeah, of course Yeah It's about how are you preparing this? Do you even have a vision of how long you want this business to exist carrying your legacy? Or eventually are you saying, well, I'm gonna run this as long as I can and I'm gonna make sure that whoever takes over later is equipped to take over up to a certain extent, then I really don't care what happens after that or You say, right, I'd like this business to run for at least three generations on Mm-hmm So what needs to happen today and how do I build this for that? So instantly our thoughts would go to how do I set up the mechanics of the business? It goes well, well deeper than that to say what values and ethics am I building this business on? What is the higher core purpose on this? So most people think strategy is a, is a wonderful thick document that comes from consultants And yet sometimes no In most times strategy is a thinking creative process It really is about why am I doing this? What is the overall impact I want to leave on the business? And this is where family businesses come very strongly for what is, um, everything is about profit for purpose Mm-hmm What is that purpose? Where is this impacting lives across the board? So what is that legacy that you want to leave? What values are you building this business on? What ethics, what codes of conduct are you saying this is how we behave, this is how we show up in life Those are some of the areas that then gives you that insight and to be able to look around you and say, well, does anyone in my family fit over here? Will I even be able to hold this conversation with somebody in my family? If not, I know there is somebody out there because if I have in, you know, there's a, I dunno where that saying is from, but build and they shall come Mm-hmm That's pretty much what family businesses exist on So build knowing that eventually if you, if you visualize, if you can visualize that strategy, you know, there is somebody waiting to step into those shoes So building that first and then finding out who it is comes much, much lighter So rather than looking at the mechanics of how do you set up a business for transferring Look at what you're building the business on Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a great perspective, um, from a entrepreneur Like even in my point of view, I'm focusing on that as well Yeah You know, I'm focusing on building the business and then deciding what happens in terms of, is family ready for it? Mm-hmm But I'm, I'm quite tough with my, with my family in the sense that if I bring them onto the business, they gotta be working harder than employees You bet Um, you know, they need to, employees may come and go, but your family's gonna be there And if they, my kind of thinking now anyways, you gotta be working 10 times harder than you know, the employees, um, because you know, this is your business at the end of the day Yeah You know, they don't have stake in the business, but I'm also kind of in my mind looking at, you know, who are the future leaders within the organization Mm-hmm Um, mm-hmm And Accelerating them to these leadership positions because as you, as we said, and as we keep saying, I never say Alpha Pro Partners is mine I always say Alpha Pro Partners is even an legal definition It's its own business, right It's, it's its own legal form You bet So it's not my business, it is Alpha Pro Partners I happen to be the CEO and the majority owner, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's mine It just means that I'm taking this and growing it Because once you have a business, it's, it's deeper It's like having children mm-hmm Having a family, right? Like you've got suppliers, you've got reputation, you've got employees Um, you are legally obliged to do certain things It, it pays for your livelihood Um, and if you do not look after this entity mm-hmm Today, it won't look after you tomorrow And it needs to It will have its own legacy It will So it needs to have a leadership that will continue it, or you exit Right Yeah Um, and I think we've gone really deep in this conversation in the sense that it's not about you setting up a business and then passing it onto your family members It could you be your key execs, but ultimately this is a entity that you have to look after now Yeah Um, and if you don't look after it, you're not doing it justice And I think it just goes back to the basic fundamentals of what is a company Yeah And why you're doing it So I think that's, Hey, can I peel back a couple more layers on that? Yeah Um, it's, it's like peeling onion layers The more you peel, the more you cry Mm-hmm But it, sometimes it's good to cry because then you get to the, getting to the heart of the meat, of the onion But couple of things that you said really struck, and this is, this is really very good that you said Once you set up an, an organization, once you're set up, the minute you get a trade license, it's a separate entity Mm And you've gotta start thinking about it like this You happen to be the shareholder, but in no way, shape or form can you claim absolute ownership of that because then you are hindering the growth of that business Hundred percent Because a business will only grow as much as the, the people in the business are growing and as majority shareholder or whatever that role is in many ways, um, that individual influences how much the business grow Mm-hmm So, very nicely said, absolutely true Because eventually, it's almost like then, as you said, we are going deeper in the conversation It's a collective consciousness that evolves when the company becomes, um, is treated like this because everybody's consciousness is now involved in growing that organization Mm So, and in no way can be claim ownership on that Second, um, you were talking about growing key leaders within the organization How are typically leaders grown? You pick somebody who's really great at what they do and hopefully also look at how great are they at people being, with people, getting the best out of people, inspiring people to do what they, what their team is doing Many ways, as people grow through the ranks, it becomes less about your technical skills and it becomes more about being a great human being I don't do accounting anymore It's true, isn't it? Because after a while it becomes less about that Yeah It entirely becomes about who you are, what you're bringing to the table, how is your leadership coherence, if you will So how are your thoughts, how are your emotions, how are your, um, sovereignty and decision making your agency there? And how are you, um, allowing that to filter through the ranks because that's your sole role after that So when you are growing future leaders, that is what's actually also going to be transferred to those future leaders Yeah, a hundred percent Yeah And if that step is missed, then we're basically adding pressure by promoting people but not equipping them with these skills So it's quite possible in businesses like yours with such an aware, um, individual at the head of the business that you will go through these motions and it's wonderful And whether it's those key leaders in the company or your family A couple of things to note also is in fact more so if it's your family I like that you said they gotta work harder Not just work harder, but also be completely open and transparent at being held accountable Mm-hmm Because many things, many things slip through the gaps because somebody has the same family name So three things at the top of my list Discipline, ownership, and accountability Yeah No, that's great, great, great Those, those three things And then it does not matter who you are because at that stage it, you're not related to me You are part of that, that collective consciousness that is the business So everybody, it is everybody's role to hold these three very high on that agenda, discipline, ownership, and accountability That brings me, if I may just digress just a little bit When we talk about culture within a company, culture is what you accept If you accept someone coming in late for meetings and always have an excuse or, um, someone not showing up for a client meeting or reports not coming in, whatever the case may be, the more we accept, the more that becomes part of the culture without even it being written on the walls as well This is our amazing culture, but what are we also accepting and putting discipline, ownership, accountability right at the top then gives a very clean filter to say, what are we accepting and what are we absolutely saying no to? So I just wanted to peel those layers on what you were saying If you get family in, they gotta work harder, not just work harder Absolutely Be open to be held accountable Yeah, no, greatly put Yeah Um, so yeah, thank, thank you for sharing that I now wanna go more into, to you as a person Um, I think you have tremendous tenacity and determination and, um, you know, you are real strong person Um, I wanna talk about if, if, if you, if I may, you know, you, you are, you've, you've had, you know, cancer a few times and it's been quite life threatening, but at the same time, you've still managed to run the business You've still, you know, you are, you are, you still have customers, you know, you have employees, you have multiple businesses as well, not just one Um I want dig into your tenacity and your determination and your unwilling to give up For many individuals and entrepreneurs get into, into a posi, into a life-threatening position would mean they just stop everything and just focus on one thing But you was able to, it didn't happen to you once It happened to you multiple times So how did it affect you as an entrepreneur when you, you know, had the diagnosis and how were you then able to build yourself up to say, you know what, this is not gonna affect me I'm gonna fight and I'm gonna continue and, and move on and kind of push ahead in my, in my life as well There are a couple of words that you said sort of made me think about how people view this scenario as, but first of all, I wanna say that everybody has their own journey Everybody's journey is just as important and just as valuable for them Everybody looks at life from their own lens Mm-hmm My way of looking at life has a very different lens, just, that's just me, path of least resistance So I very rarely use the words, I gotta fight through this, I gotta push through this, because that just presu pre presupposes that you're pushing against something, you're fighting against and you're resisting I choose not to put labels on it So for me that was just a situations, situations happen If this was any other situation, we'd treat it exactly as a situation and you work through it and you come out of on the other side So it was a situation I had to go through the motions because I knew I'm gonna come out on the other side The one thing that perhaps I inherited from my, my mom or whoever Is knowing that I'm here for a much bigger impact on the world So this is a, this is an, this really is a very small situation It's like a bump on the road and you go through it because I know the picture is much, much bigger than this for me Hmm So yes, cancer happened three times I fell off, my horse broke, my head survived that, that was a time when I said, nah, if I've survived that, I'm here for a much, much longer time So I'm good But it's, and yeah, you're right It's just, it's, it's challenging to look beyond today Mm And I go back to when we were talking about how do you set your business up for, for succession is when you start keeping an eye on the much larger picture These little seemingly large mountains today become smaller, smaller bumps to cross over Because is it really about me or is it the impact that I can make on someone else's life? Hmm Because it's very rarely about me It's very easy to make everything about ourselves and then get caught in that internal whirlwind But the minute you choose to say, is it really about me? Because I'm also part of that collective conscious and the consciousness in the world, we start to look at world differently One of the things that that still is, is if I'm alive today to watch the sunrise, everything is great in the world If I have the ability to sit here, have a wonderful conversation with an old friend and put a smile on my face, this is wonderful What do I have to complain about? So it just, everything is a choice It's a decision that we make There's always a fork in the road It's about what folk you choose to walk on I choose to walk on the, on the pub that says, is is everything absolutely amazing in life if I choose to look at it? Yeah, it is because again, it is as amazing as I choose to make it That's how I'm here That's great insights, great insights and great, um, perspective, uh, that you've, you've shared on Thank you for sharing One of the things that I, I've been through a few adversities as well and one of the things that I've helped me, uh, get through is those small wins Yeah So sometimes you have a big problem you need to solve and instead of looking at that big problem you gotta solve, there's lots of small things you need to do That's it Just get through those small wins and eventually that big problem is gonna be o overcome And that worked for me I guess that works for me 'cause I'm like, I'm a doer I like getting things done Um, I'm sure there are different other personality types where it's more the emotional side that kind of, yeah Helps them That helped me and that helped me, you know, get through some of the adversities that I've faced Um, oh, don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much a, a very strong doer in my own way as well I just, I cannot sit still e every day Uh, that's one of my very strong values in life every day If I'm not growing, then I'm stagnating constantly evolving, learning, being curious about what's next in the world, where is the overall, where the world is going, what do I not know about the market I'm serving? So I'm, I'm constantly on that path as well Mm-hmm So, yes, small wins absolutely matter a lot For me, it's the constant hunger, the constant curiosity about growing is what keeps me going every day, every single day And yeah, I just, I never stood still even during treatment, I was working, I had my team They were amazing They still are Um, I was delivering and my work actually keeps me going I love my work I don't think I say this enough I absolutely love what I do and I will, I see myself doing this for however long I am alive and eventually possibly dropping dead on stage, talking about what I do and why I love doing what I do So I love my work, possibly more than anything else, other than my horses But that's a different, but yeah, it's, it As long as you, you absolutely love what you do Mm You love the space that you've created for yourself, then everything else is mechanics Thanks for sharing that I want to now move towards, um, this region Dubai Um, I've been here nine years You've been here 30 Um, I owe my success, you know, family life to this, you know, to this great nation Um, and, and, and you've obviously seen the changes from, you know, 30 years ago this we would be sitting in the desert, right? Absolutely Um, and large sand deer Yeah And you've seen a lot of, like, there's a whole wave of people coming into the Uua E now Yeah Um, pre COVID the population was 25 million Now it's 4 million Yeah I know It's gonna grow They're looking to get They forecasting that there's going to, there's 600, six, 700,000 odd businesses in the UAE now they're forecasting it to be 2 million Yeah In the next few years So a tremendous amount of changes happening every month, every week, every day There is Tell us about, you know, how have you seen that transition from when you first came to the UAE to now?'cause you know, you've been here, you've seen there that you've done that Yeah What are the things that you would encourage entrepreneurs who are coming here that you know, you've experienced being here and being in this country Um, don't come here to make a fast buck Look beyond the glitz and glamor Mm-hmm That is obviously in your face when you come here There is so much to learn in this country There is so much to learn in the way this country does business And I keep going back to family businesses because that is what essentially been the pillars of this business at this country It's those family businesses, that old school way of, um, creating relationships before getting into a transaction Um, there is value in that And many times I tell people, when you come here, when someone says, I wanna meet you for coffee, actually go for the coffee The more coffees you have, the more conversations you have, the better you'll get at building that business Don't look to go in straight into transaction mode Mm-hmm Also, as much as possible, try not to give into the hustle culture, because that is one of the quickest way to burn out So you're in Asia, so if you're coming in here from Asia, then actually be as Asian as you can because this is, you are in Asia Mm-hmm Business is done differently over here People want to get to know you first They want to like you, trust you know you before they can give you a piece of business So make time for it It's not about quick conversations, turning into quick cash So bring patience, bring empathy, bring relationship, building, open yourself to old school business There is so much to learn in this country and be open to different cultures Mm-hmm I mean, this is one of the best times to be alive in one of the best countries, and my heart belongs to the Dubai I know I'm saying this on a podcast, feel free to edit it if you want to, but I just say, I feel this There is everything that you can wish for on this, on this, this one city Be open to new cultures Be open to meeting new people Mm-hmm Be open to learning from other people Come with your experience, but also don't come with a cup full Be ready to empty it so you can bring in some fresh experience, fresh knowledge, and be Truly bringing that global experience on your portfolio, on your cv, if you want to, don't come here to make a quick buck, those days are gone Come here to stay because this country will actually help you build a business that lasts for a very long time Yeah, I mean, a lot of entrepreneurs who came here for a short amount of time and Yeah I mean, I, I, when I first came, um, I think there was a transition between some of the employees who were on the very high wages Mm-hmm Um, you know, there was the full package and, you know, that changed to normalizing to global kind of salaries and packages as well And back then, as you know, it was about, oh, I'm, I'm only gonna be here for two years or three years, and then I'm gonna go even with certain businesses as well Um, you know, there were, they set up a business and there were, and the attitude was I'm gonna do it for two years and I'm gonna sell and I'm gonna go Um, but if you look at some of the business that've been around for, you know, since the beginning, yes Um, a lot of them are expats, expat families who've been here for 20 years, 30 years, 10 years, and they've grown massive businesses Um, and they've been successful as well So I don't think you should discount the fact that this is now a place where you can build a sustainable business that lost a long time And as you said, the, the city has everything to offer for you, offer you now Um, and therefore, if you can grow a business here and you can develop it here, you can also expand to other regions as well, because you've learned all of the different cultures and Absolutely Communication styles and yeah Business that happen here as well Yeah And you're right when you say a lot of the businesses over here are expat driven businesses They're founded by expats One of my, one of my clients is one of the, that business has been around for 47 years now Wow And they're well into their second generation now So that transition is already started and it, it's ready for that transfer And it's amazing to watch that happen Everything And it's, it's one of those stories where came to the country on a, on a, on a plane, on a whim with just literally a few dollars in those days with groupies, but really not much And look where they are now Mm So opportunity is, opportunities are everywhere It's for how you look at it And you're totally right Many, many people came here, whether it's a job or a business It was three years was a, was a limit, because back then the visa was three years So I'm gonna be here for three years and then I'm gonna go, I think Why would you want to If you wanna make an opportunity every time we say where the grass is green, somewhere else, and, but we absolutely fail to see that you can, you have the ability to make the grass as green as you want to bright where you're standing Yeah, a hundred percent So put what you got in it and rewards are here for you Tore, or you've been an amazing guest Thank you for joining me and it's been quite some time since we've, we've met And, um, you put me on your podcast quite a few years back, so I had to, yeah, that was ages ago Return that favor before we wrap up Um, what's the best way that our listeners can get in touch and what are the things that you are working on currently? First of all, Rayhan thank you very much for inviting me for this amazing conversation Anna, what a great opportunity to meet again It's been a while We live in the same city and yet we don't seem to meet very often But thank you Um, easiest way to get in touch with me, as on LinkedIn Drop me a dm I'm right there And what am I working on? So it, looking beyond the mechanics of the business, it's just I've been noticing patterns, noticing trends, and I'm, I'm working on, um, a few frameworks that I've been developing on resolving the human complexity that comes from working within families and growing that leadership base So the couple of frameworks that I'm, I'm putting together is tentatively named the Laws of Becoming and Conscious Commerce The laws are becoming really is about the, the coherence of how internally, how aligned are we at ourselves? How much baggage are we carrying, how aware of we radically aware, radically aware of how we are, um, and how we show up as And so working through that and allowing ourselves a space to let go of the baggage because we are who we are and we take ourselves to work Mm-hmm And when work doesn't work, we wonder why the clue lies in you So, um, I'm working a lot on that to expand that framework and really expand to see how this, this is now gonna start becoming a turning point And the second, the, the complementary, um, side to it is a conscious commerce is the congruence of it and how it actually shows up in business How do you align and align, um, not just the finance, but the execution and the leadership and the innovation and that goes with it, but turn this into a regenerative, um, circular commerce as opposed to Taking from the business to how do you, rather than taking a penny out of the business to how can that penny be regenerated Mm For generations to come So I'm working a lot on this and the, the next step really is to continue to put that in the public space through conversations like these, through keynotes to eventually a book Who knows? Your second book? My second book So just in case the listeners don't know, um, first book is Data Scale Yeah, I read that book Um, amazing book Thank you Um, can't believe you're doing a second one So yeah, that's, that's very much in the making now So the initial compendium is already ready There are white papers that I've now sent out for, um, assessments So there should be a book coming through Yeah, no Once it's out, we'll do another episode and we'll yeah, put it here It says we'll put it here We can talk about it That we will Thank you so much for having me No, it's been a pleasure It's a wonderful conversation I've really enjoyed this conversation And um, yeah, we're gonna bring you in when your book comes out as well, when the book comes out That's a promise Yep Thank you, Ryan Thanks Thank you for joining us on The Alphapreneurs Podcast I hope you enjoyed the show Please subscribe and give us a five star rating and a review Your feedback is appreciated For show notes and more, check the link in the description and connect to me on LinkedIn and search for Rayhan Aleem See you in the next episode