Nicole Hayden, Nancy Wake, and The Journey of a Resilient Spirit

Join us for an inspiring episode of Hello Moxie as host Nicole Donnelly sits down with the Nicole Hayden for a heart-to-heart chat that'll leave you feeling empowered.

In this episode, we're diving deep into the stuff that really matters - safety, personal growth, and resilience. Nicole Hayden opens up about overcoming childhood trauma and shares insights on creating safe spaces for authentic connections. We explore the often-overlooked power of femininity in leadership and discuss how transparency can transform toxic workplace cultures.

We'll also transport you back in time to meet the incredible Nancy Wake, a true embodiment of bravery during World War II. Known as the "White Mouse" for her ability to evade capture, Wake became a leading figure in the French Resistance. She was instrumental in organizing escape routes for Allied soldiers and coordinating attacks on German installations. Her remarkable courage and resourcefulness earned her numerous awards, including the George Medal from the UK and the Medal of Freedom from the US.

From cultivating inner safety to manifesting dreams through action, this episode is packed with inspiration that bridges historical heroism with modern-day challenges.

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Transcript

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You're listening to Hello Moxie with Nicole Donnelly. In each episode, we honor the unbreakable thread that connects the fierce women who came before us to modern day pioneers carving their own paths. We'll share stories of unforgettable heroines, celebrate their courage, and bring to light the lasting impact they've had across generations. Get inspired by the stories of those who embodied true Moxie and pave the way for others to follow. Hello Moxie is sponsored by DMG Digital.

a woman-owned marketing consultancy dedicated to helping B2B companies and e-commerce brands create exceptional customer experiences. Welcome to Hello Moxie. In today's episode, I am joined by Nicole Hayden. Nicole is the Director of Marketing at Triton Metal Products, a metal fabrication company based out of Hamilton, Indiana. She and her husband also own a winery and she's the former founder of Creative Cat.

a marketing agency she sold in 2023. Nicole is passionate about guiding organizations and people to create a better world. She loves understanding human behavior so we can truly connect to each other and create positive change, not just in ourselves, but also in our organizations. And I have been dying to have Nicole on the show. We met each other at...

Mark Schaeffer's uprising marketing retreat in, my gosh, can you believe it's been almost six months ago now? my gosh, last spring. And I don't know, the fact that we're both named Nicole is just one of many like crazy, strange, like psychic connections. Like as we met at the conference and we started talking, it was like we were living parallel lives in some ways. So crazy cool. Yeah, it really was.

I felt like I found my like twin soulmate. I know. So we're stuck. We're stuck with each other. mean, we didn't have a choice. Yeah. And I just felt like the minute I met you, Nicole, it was just so natural and easy to connect with you. And I think that's something that is really special about you that I've noticed is you really do have a gift for finding like those

finding a way to connect with the people around you. And so I think that's super cool. It's clear your passion about it, but it shows up in the way that you engage with people in the world. So that's pretty cool. Thank you. Luckily what I have to discuss today, I think gets to the core of how I've developed that. So it's something that didn't always come naturally. I would say it was there, right? Because I am

living it, embodying it now, but I pin down the root of that cultivating that, know, on the point of the understanding human behavior, the human condition so that we can connect that creating that space where people feel comfortable is a really big piece of that. Yeah, that safety. Like if you feel truly safe with someone to open up. is the word, Nicole.

You found the word. That's my theme today. Safety. Yeah. And I remember when I first met you, I felt so safe. It was just, it was like, I can just share with you and you were just going to be there and listen. And I needed that at that time. I remember, I think we say we were at the barbecue dinner and I just like,

And you were like, totally there for it afterwards. was like, I think I might've overshared a little bit, but you just, you just saw me, Nicole. You saw me in that moment when I needed to be seen. That word does not exist in my vocabulary. Like if people felt safe or compelled to say something, then I'm happy that I was the space where that flew out of their mouth. You know what I mean? So.

That's what I love about you. So what's been that journey been like for you to kind of get to that point where you feel like you're really able to create kind of that safe place for people and be able to truly connect? I'd love to learn more about. Yeah. So like all great growth journeys is a story of adversity and trials and even trauma, right? So I, describe my childhood as pretty tumultuous.

I always that word is a fumbler for me. Anyway, you know, we had a lot of chaos in our family. My mom was a great mom. Well, she still is. We have a great relationship. She was as good as a mom as she could be at that time because of so much chaos. I was a sad kid because of our the

What's the tragic event that happened when I was six, my brother was in a drowning accident at a public place. And when they retrieved him, he was pronounced dead. And there's people everywhere around. I remember vividly like being picked up by a strange woman as I'm like screaming and crying. Like, you know, seeing that as a six year old, like that's like your world's never the same, you know?

on the point of safety, like that was where I lost the feeling of safety. And I did not find safety within myself until probably the last handful of years. Yeah. So my early childhood through teen years and early twenties were painful for sure. I, all I knew was I didn't want to live with it forever. And so

The best decision I ever made was starting to get into personal development. I just would consume any personal development book that I could get my hands on. And it really never stopped. I just kept exploring, right? My own, trying to understand my own human condition, so that I could get to just a peaceful state and get that chaos out of my body and that fear.

So that's the summarized version there. My gosh. I could not imagine as a six-year-old what that experience must have been like and just how trapped you probably felt in that experience for so many years and with the emotions that you felt at that time and having to process through all of them, right? Yeah. And of course it was a storm too of other things like abusive.

father, not to me, but to my mom, physically and emotionally, poverty, and just, I think seeing my mom, so there, there are ways where I see now that as a kid, I was lonely because, you know, you, you really only have the one parent and that parent is so overwhelmed with life, like what life has given her. And so that was that lonely piece of not, not being able to have as much as my mom as we.

need as a child, but the really positive element of it was seeing my mom move through it and grow through it and continually build us a better life to the point now where she owns a successful business. She's built an amazing life for herself. so, I got that in return. That was kind of...

The way I see it's like, that could have been more, but I got this in its absence. Nicole, I swear you and I are like, I, I, it's just, we stacking up more? We're stacking up more. I am literally, literally going on Sunday to a public speaking class. And the topic of my talk is.

how to speak up and how speaking up is what breaks generational abuse. And even saying it right now, I'm nervous to go and give that speech and practice it, but while my experience was different than yours, very similar. I had a dad who was abusive too, to my mom and to us. And it's one of those things that I didn't really fully come to terms with.

until sheesh in the last few years, to be honest. So, And it's one of those things that can feel very, very isolating. And like, for me at least, it's a very isolating and lonely experience to go through that and have to deal with the shame that you constantly have to fight against the shame of like, for me, it's like the feeling of badness. Like I call it the rotten apple core.

Like this feeling of like, I'm a rotten apple core and I've got to prove all the time that I'm good enough. And I'm like so tired of doing that. Was there a moment for you where you realized it was playing out in your actions or was it something like that was always kind of like, like you saw it there.

and just finally started to approach it in a productive way. Yeah, sadly and strangely enough, it really started when my dad passed away. It wasn't until my dad passed away that kind of like the curtain was lifted, if you will, on like years and decades of manipulation, to be fully frank. So that was like the first, that was the first part of it, was like, whoa, what just happened there?

And then I think what happened for me is I just had gotten to a point where I was so burnt out and burnt out because I'm a workaholic. That has been my way of coping with it is through working. And that was my addiction. I was totally addicted to work and I still have to fight that addiction to be honest. But I had gotten to a point where I was so burnt out and there were some relationships in my life that I realized I was choosing

people that were a lot like my father. And it was a moment where I woke up one day. And what shifted for me was I had been practicing for two years. Two years, I had been practicing just being with myself outside, sitting in my hammock every day for at least 15 minutes. And I would just sit there and pay attention to my sensations of my body.

what my thoughts were and it was like literally like my me time. And I did that consistently for two years. And I realized looking back, I'm like, that was what helped me really know what my inner voice was, what I wanted, when I was safe, when I wasn't safe. It was like I was able to really tune into my intuition by doing that and spending that time with myself. Because for me, like reading the self-help books is almost more feeling like, I gotta prove, I've gotta do.

You know? yeah. But like, but like the, the getting and just sitting there and just being was like me practicing, like it's okay. I don't have to do anything and I can still be okay. I love that so much because knowing now, looking back now, that journey of mine through the self-help books was really driven from, I would say what you're calling the bad apple core. Like something's wrong with me.

And I need someone else to tell me how to fix me where you, I just listened to a podcast, talking on this and it was tied tied to trial childhood trauma. Our body, we kind of have it flipped where it's like our, we think our mind is controlling how our body feels, but really like the body is storing.

So like that's why, you know, turn tuning into how your body feels really drives like what's happening up here. I might be butchering that a little bit, but really the concept is like, feel your body, feel into your body, and then you can kind of work your way up. So I would say to a 20 year old me, Nicole, hey, you should talk to Nicole Donnelly about her approach because.

I'd say that to my 20 year old self too, honestly. I'd say that to myself two years ago. I say to myself today, every day. Yeah. Yeah. So I, on the note of self-help books, I really don't do too much of it now. I posted about this on LinkedIn when I was actually active on LinkedIn, but it was the realization that those books were coming from a place of lack in myself. Like I didn't have.

answers. So I needed to consume all these other voices to tell me. And so I've really gotten away from that. And what have you noticed since you've done that? I'm more creative, you know, when you're not expecting other people to tell you what to do. The experts, right? You're more, it just opens up more space to dream and like problem solve creatively, you know, and

It's hard at first, but eventually you get to a point where like you, for instance, I'm redoing the company's employee evals because we want them to be driven from like a core value place. So initially it's like, I'm not HR. I don't know how the F to do these. don't know if I can do it. You know, I'm pretty liberal with them sometimes, but.

so like, you know, the more you just look at yourself as the expert that can figure things out, then you get those assignments or projects and you, don't have as much freeze time, you know? And it's like, you are creatively trying to map it out and figure it out and not just trying to fit yourself into someone else's framework.

Yeah, I think you're right on there. found that a lot of times people and myself too, if it's something that like, you're moving into a new industry or you're doing, know, working with a new client or it's a new project that you've never done before or anything like that, a lot of times you can give yourself a hard time like, my gosh, I don't have experience in this industry. But sometimes...

From my experience, found that actually could be a beautiful thing because you see things from a completely different perspective than anyone else who has 15, 20 years of experience. And so you can look at the problem that's happening and be able to see it with kind of like this new vantage point that helps bring in, like in your case, some new creativity to it like you've been able to do. you can bring all of your, you know, as marketers, so much of what we do is really like understanding people and.

what they need and what they want. I think understanding people and questioning the way things are done, right? It's like, unique is one of the core words that you use to describe marketing. So it's like to be a good marketer. mean, it really calls for that, like that build a new system around.

this exact situation and the people involved. It's never the same exact situation and people. So yeah, think it's been a really positive thing for me being better at that field. Yeah, it sounds like what you've been able to do is really learn to how to work. Well, you've developed really strong leadership or you're developing really strong leadership skills, but also how to work across departments.

to make change happen. And I think in order to truly be an exceptional marketer, you have to know how to do that really well. You have to be able to know how to communicate with other teams cross-functionally and get them on board the train. mean, the buy-in, think that's really like, we should schedule another call, another recording a year from now, because that's where I'm at right now. Like my first...

challenge is buy-in because I do work with people who are old school manufacturing mentality. And so I just look like a fluffy unicorn in there. Like, you know, they might find just noise. A certain one of them loves the word noise. I, I,

like this guy, but again, it's like we're on the same team and I'm trying to make change. So you have to figure out how to work with each, meet them where they're at, right? I can't force it onto anyone. So you have to meet them where they're at, even if you're cursing them, like sometimes I do to, you know, not, not force it, but like, you know, create this collaboration and

hopefully, you know, bring it together in a way that reflects all involved, not just you like it becomes better, right? But that it's, yeah, it's overcoming that. That's where I'm currently at. I have so been there. What have you found? Nicole? I feel like I'm there all the time. I'm being honest, like, I was like that when I worked in house for a manufacturing company. And it was just such a struggle to get the engineers to understand what we do.

And sometimes the mansplaining was just egregious. I'll never forget one time I was on a call with an engineer and he's like, you know, we need to be ranking on the first page of Google for these keywords. And he was like mansplaining to me my job. And I was like, no, dude, no, I know what I'm doing here.

I can feel like boiling in my body. Talk about like testing your, your like, you know, your control and just emotions. Yeah. Especially when I was trying to talk to him about how we needed to be developing content so that we can do, and he's like, we need to rake them. How do think we're going to do that, dude? Like, anyway, this was like six years ago or something, but

So I would love to know, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I find that often people have underestimated me in my career. I've often been underestimated. And it used to really bother me. It used to really get under my skin. And now I almost welcome it because I'm just like, I'm just gonna show you. So just wait and see. You keep underestimating me and you just wait because. Girls, that's another stack.

on our full ties because you can be in that state from like a non-ego trip state. I think. You'll to tell me more because I feel like I got to be honest, sometimes it is ego for me. I'm going to be real. Sometimes there's this ego in me that's like, I'm going to show you. So tell me more. How do you do it from a non-ego state, Nicole? Well, now that I say it out loud, I'm like,

I should probably sit with that too and really look at it. I know sometimes it's a, I'm excited to see that happen. So it's like less of a, I'm gonna show you. And it's more like, that's gonna be cool because I know it's going to happen. You know what I mean? yeah, you've got like this inner confidence. Yeah, and I like, I'm such a, like a visualizer. So I can already like see what I'm doing now.

like bread crumbing to that moment. And so when I have just yesterday with speaking to the company and then dealing with some like negative criticism from the same guy that loves the word noise, I'm like, so I like could barely, I could not really enjoy the evening last night because I was just like, like trying to figure out the best way to to get through this because

when someone feels like that about you and they are high in the company, that can spread, right? Like their perspectives can spread. And so I wanted to do handle it in a way that I could get in front of it in a calm and like, like I will, the word productive, I'm so sick of it, but.

I guess productive way where it's not just like me versus you, but a proactive, like I want to improve too. I, your voice matters. So anyway, I, I handled it all. think in a way that I'm proud in a way that's clean in a way that brings the team together, not divides. And I, that's one of those breadcrumb moments where I'm like, okay, I just ate my next breadcrumb that.

is connected to this vision I have where I'm gonna rock their world and they don't even know it. Get the credibility that that's kind of what we're saying here. It's like, if they underestimate you, then you don't have that credibility yet. And that's, to me, that's like, I gotta get that. I know we're going on another topic, but creating this podcast has been, we'll talk about that later, but creating this podcast has been.

just a brutal journey of like trying to just be comfortable, be comfortable being seen. You know, like I've never leaned into my personal brand in this way. Like there's like a mock, there's a website and it has pictures of me on it. And I'm like, I'm not used to being seen like this. Do you know what I mean? Like when you grow up in an abusive household, it's not, it's not safe for you to be seen. And so,

I know we're going on another topic, like this whole idea of me having to put myself out there like that and be seen by the world and potentially judged on that, it terrifies me. You know, I have like, you know, it's scary. So I appreciate you saying that. I have to give all the kudos to Paola Santana, who is our video editor on our team. And she is just one of those people that you just, I wish.

loyal to the core, incredibly, incredibly committed to doing exceptional work and very, very creative, very detail oriented. Anyway, I love her. anyway, thank you. I'm going to pass that on to her. She'll hear it when she hears the podcast. Paola Santana, she does great work. I'll order her with all of the sincere compliments because it looks great.

Well, I was gonna say when you were talking about like the culture, what you're experiencing, it's incredible to me how common it is, sadly. I've worked in situations like that as an employee time and time again. I've had clients who have the same, it's like, it's so much more common for this situation, the culture to have those kinds of things and not. And it made me think as you were talking about like that, there's this amazing book. You, Nicole, you would love it. You might've already read it.

It's by Pat Lencioni. Pat Lencioni. I'm familiar with him. Yeah. And it's called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Yeah. And everything you're saying just sounds so much like this. So the first one is lack of trust. If you don't have lack of trust, can't, like that is like ground zero. And then the second one is fear of conflict. The third one is lack of commitment.

and then avoidance of accountability and then results. And like everything you were describing to me, just like, there's no trust, because it sounds like everybody's like in self-preservation mode. They're just trying to protect themselves and they're afraid of conflict. So they just keep it to themselves or they do the side channel thing. Yep. Because they don't want to bring it out in the open and just say it transparently. The side channel is the safe space.

Yeah. And, my goodness, heaven forbid you should share constructive feedback in a meeting and say what's actually happening in the company. That's conflict. And so the fact that someone would come back and say, well, we need to be more positive says to me, like, you're afraid of the conflict. You're afraid of facing the reality of what we're dealing with right here. Yeah. And it's like, people see it. They see it. So covering it up with glitter, covering up the shit with glitter.

and you still smell it. Yeah. isn't it amazing to think like what I think is really beautiful about your leadership approach is there's a lot of people that would just try to put lipstick on a pig, like they say, right? You're just going to put lipstick on the pig and you you're in marketing and I think it shows incredible market leadership on your end to say like, this is much bigger than marketing and it's foundational to anything that this company does. It's a foundational to our customer experience.

If our employee experience is poor, it's gonna bleed out everywhere else. And I think the fact that you see that and have the vision for that and understand like your role in marketing, like there's a much more important leadership task at hand to be able to address those things than just, okay, what are we gonna do for our social media campaign for the next six months? And what email campaigns are we gonna run? Like What lipstick are we putting on?

Yeah, exactly. Like you're not going to get on our little piggy. Yeah, it's like not going to get there. Yeah. And for me, it's just like, I, kind of comes back to the credibility and like, have such a, a, I think pretty healthy craving of success that it's like, whatever I have plans to do, they will not be successful if this is here flat out. Like I just, can't have

that success, that sweet success if this is here. So I got to clean up the mess, you know, or at least like be a part of the early, you know, group that's like driving that. So- You're doing the hard work of change management, you know, like anytime you want to do any sort of transformation within an organization, it takes so much people.

change management, know? You could implement whatever technology you want, but it's not going to stick unless you have the people who are all on board. Yep. The people with the mindsets, right? And it's like when I got hired, I mean, I knew that the CEO knew that our first battle is the mindset. I see where we're aligned on that. I also see where my skill sets and strengths are so needed there.

next, like knowing his now. And so he needs my help. Like they need my help with this mindset adoption. And for me, it's like, yeah, I'm still marketing like, cause this marketing can't be successful with this, but it's there. There's a example in the story of the woman I'll share today that I was thrilled. I like didn't know that how, what I'm going through would connect to this woman.

and you'll see why when I share. And then as I'm reading it, I'm like, my God, this was like meant to be. So I know I don't even remember the point I was just making, but yeah, like seeing where your strengths like fill a gap. And I would say like continue to lean into that. I can't tell you how many times I felt like a fish out of water in certain situations where I was just like, felt like a unicorn. You like you mentioned earlier in the episode, you're like, I feel like

this guy thinks I'm the fluffy unicorn, would say lean into that fluffy unicorn. I am. Yeah. It's what I, you know, I have soft skills, I bring a safe space for people, I know how to connect with people. Like my marketing skill set is not number one priority. So it's like, that's what I have to give right now. And I know that it can get us where we want to. And it's okay, if I'm the looked at as the fluffy unicorn for a while, whatever.

gives me more wiggle room when I wanna show up in a goofy mood or a weird mood or I'm doing weird dance moves. It gives me freedom to just be fucking weird. So whatever. I gotta see these weird dance moves. Let's get a little sneak preview. Are you like Elaine from Seinfeld? Do you remember her funny dance? Oh my gosh, look at you. Yeah. I mean, I'm in a chair. They can get really crazy, but yeah, I just like.

I just see it as the silver lining. All right, if I'm the weirdo around here, then sounds like fun. Your crazy dance is much better than mine. See, I have a 14 year old now. And so I'm on a mission to embarrass her as much as humanly possible. I never thought I'd see this day, but I literally take pleasure in how can I embarrass her? So like usually like, you know, if she's in the room and I'm in a silly mood. so easily too. Oh, it's the best. It's like.

And I'm like that parent that I never thought I would be that just is like, my goal is what can I do to embarrass her? So I'll just do like my really like annoying, you know, 90s dance when she's with her friends and she's like, mom, you're so weird. She's 15. She's 14. Yeah. That is the age. My nephews are 14, 15. And that is the age where just like the word to describe their lens is just like,

Lame. Everything is lame. So true. So glad you're up, you know, taking a similar age out of my same book and just like, all right, well, I guess we'll just have fun with it. Yeah, exactly. My situation then. Well, tell me more about this woman in history that you admire and tell me like, I want to know about her. I want to know what you love about her and how she's inspired you. Is she on a parallel track with you?

she is like incredibly badass. Yeah. so brave and in a situation I would, I will likely never be in, my life, which is war. Her name is Nancy Wake. Have you heard of her? I have not. No. There's an incredible movie about her that it was really what started it all for me. And when you shared.

you know, it's about a woman in history. I was like, she immediately it was, it was Nancy Wake. She was one of the most successful spies of world war II. She was a French resistance member and a British spy who was so effective at hiding. Sorry, I have a dog. She's so effective at hiding refugees and sabotaging. I think he, I think he loves her too. I think that's he's saying.

No, he loves the U-Haul truck that just pulled up.

Not ours. I was reading that because- It's okay. My husband's pinging me about pumpkin bread being done because I baked some pumpkin bread and he's like texting me. He's like, the pumpkin bread smells good, honey. So I'm with you. So anyway, tell me about Nancy Wake. wonder if she was the most- So she was one of the most decorated spies of World War II, female. And on top of that, she was beautiful. She was girly and feminine.

and charming and rebellious. And she just knew herself and held onto herself. And that is from my, what my takeaways is this, is this is someone, I mean, we're talking early thirties. So right. think women, you know, aren't accepted as an equal contribution now. That's in the workplace too. It's like, this is wartime 1930s. So.

She and she just kept moving through all of, you know, the resistance to her being a female and playing this role and held onto herself. There's an incredible story where they were running from a bomber airplane. I know there's a technical term for that. Germans and they're like barely dodging, dodging these bullets flying out of them. They're in a car and they get to a point where they know they have to ditch the car and

go into a trench. So they ditch the car and they're running and she stops and sprints back to the car, grabs a package, runs back to her fellow resistance member and they jump in the ditch and he's thinking she had to get papers of some sort, like something obviously critical to their mission. And it was her cosmetic case. Like it was her makeup and like her face creams.

And they just like lost it laughing while literally, because the car like blew up like seconds later. And they just are dying laughing in this trench with freaking bullets all around them. And it's just like, she just like, she was that role, like a resistance fighter and a spy, but she just was still herself. And like that moment to me was just so comical because I like,

I couldn't picture myself in that, right? Like you can, I'm sure, like our feminineness that men don't understand. Yeah, and I think sometimes don't you find like, I find I have a complicated relationship with my femininity, to be honest, in the workplace. Yeah, in what ways? And so when I hear you say that about her, that she just unabashedly owned that about herself.

I think is beautiful. I think I have like this inner battle about it in the sense that I love leaning into that feminine, like I love to wear makeup and do my hair nice and wear a beautiful dress. And I love all of that, right? I love all of that. But then there's this other side to it where I'm like, it all about my looks? Am I just, am I just, I want people to take me seriously. I want them to see me as intelligent and

you know, and not just someone who looks good. So I have like this inner battle about it, you know? And I think what I loved you sharing there is that she just owned that about herself and she didn't apologize for it. And she's like, I can be kick-ass and brilliant and get shit done and I can look beautiful doing it, you And I think that's really cool. Yeah, and I think it just like, because looking good,

felt good to her, she performed better. I can't do it now because I live 50 minutes away from work. But when I had the agency, I was seven minutes away from my house and office. And if I got to work and like got in an hour or two and like something about my outfit, hated, Nicole, I would drive home and change clothes. Wow. silly, right? No, you were like, you're channeling Nancy Wake. Like Nancy wakes bringing back to her.

a car that's about to blow up, but like I knew that if I felt good in what I was wearing, then like I had a pep in my step and like, you know, so it's like, connect with that so much. Like then it becomes more about feeling good than like a society standard of beauty. Like that's when I don't feel that. That is such a really important way to look at it is.

how you express yourself through how you dress and how you, your makeup and your hair. It's an expression of who you are as a person and who you want to, you know, who you want to be. It's a reflection of that inside of you, you know? And sure, like, you know, we, do our hair a certain way because of the way society, you know, has set the stage for what looks good. like there's all, you could get into the weeds of that, but like,

There's, mean, for me, there's no need if, if like I've come to a peaceful place with it. So, that's how I look at it. But I, I always like, and that happened so many times over the years. Like I just wouldn't deal with it. I would just go home and fuck. That's amazing. Yep. It does. You know what? It does make a difference. There are times when, like, if I know I'm having a really important meeting and I got to be on my A game.

you know, and it's like the stakes are high. You know, maybe I'm negotiating a contract or I will deliberately decide I want to wear something that's going to make me feel strong and powerful and confident. And it totally makes a difference than if I just run, grab something on the go. It depends on like how, you know, it's so interesting that you say that and to just not be ashamed about it, just own it, you know?

Because it's true, the way that you dress and how you do your hair, it is an expression of you. And it is, yeah, that's cool. So do it for you. Do it for you, have fun with it. And like, that's it. We can stop there. You know, we don't have to worry about getting into the judgment of like meeting someone else's standards or. Yeah. Am I being vain? Yeah. So, so yeah, I love, she was also rebellious.

Rebellious, was the black sheep in her family. grew up in Australia and ran away at 16. Just really didn't feel like she connected with her family that well. Her aunt who also was a black sheep in the family, they kind of had like a kindred spirit. She gave her what in today's standards would be $17,000 to go build a life she wanted to do. Wow. So she moved to.

Yeah. So she moved to London and she went to journalism school. Well, actually before she even left Australia, she, she went to nursing school. So then she comes over to London and goes to, journalism school and she gets assigned to this up and coming. People are talking about this man in Germany who's rising to power, Adolf Hitler. So she was like covering his journey and she.

starts to see the anti-semitics of this man as he rises to power and it pisses her off and she's fiery. Around that time, she's early 20s, she's partying a lot, she's kind of a life of the party girl, right? Which to me again makes her that much more badass that she can be both these feminine like...

girly girl and even these things, know, these stereotypes of this type of woman doesn't, can't do that role. They need to stay safe in their dress in the home. So that's I love, I love the contrast of her. so yeah, she, she's in that phase of her life and things are heating up. She meets an incredible French man, Henri, they get married, they have a really cute, meet cute when two people meet.

So he's a wealthy French industrialist. And so he's got means and instead of them, you know, finding a place to run off and get out of it, she wants to stay and use their resources and their network to help because she's so disgusted at the treatment of people around her. And so she convinces her husband to buy a truck or a van.

and they converted it into a basically an ambulance because she's a nurse, right? So she immediately leans into a strength that she has already to help with the current situation at hand. And of course you look at her career and she, you know, becomes the most, one of the most decorated spies. She jumps out of planes, she fights with her bare hands. One of her stories.

she rode 400 miles on a bicycle because they needed a radio to get supplies dropped round trip. So if you watch that movie about her, that really like spotlights that this beautiful woman, probably wearing a freaking dress, 400 miles, a radio while the team of resistance, you know, her fellow team members, men are waiting for her return. So she did it all on her own.

Yes, she did. And she got stopped by, you know, the German police. She's beautiful. She looks like a housewife on a ride in her bike. She gets by. Did she speak German? She, I believe she was very skilled in language and spoke several languages. So I'm sure she spoke German. So yeah. So it's like, if you back up to that, like, let's get a van and I can be a nurse. And what she did was it was all about safety. Like that.

That's again, the theme of this is safety, right? Like she kept so many people safe. like, from my perspective now and having so much interest in the word safety, you cannot do that unless you are safe within yourself, especially in a war time. How can you think quickly on your feet? And there's so many instances where she made the exact right instinctive

call or she would have died like I'm telling you like thousands of times this woman almost died but she like knew like this is what I need to say this is how I need to show up this is how I need to act just right there you cannot do that if you do not feel safe in your body if you do not feel safe with yourself so she became known she was she had five million dollar frank reward on her head if they could catch her she became known as the white mouse to

to Nazi Germany because they couldn't catch her. She would just slip, slip. They'd get her right there and she would like slip out. So she became known as the white mouse. Obviously successfully, you know, probably not obviously because you haven't heard the story, but. yeah, so she had just case after case where she moved, moved up in rank.

and just kept instinctively making the right calls to keep herself safe and thousands of others. think that's what's incredible what I'm hearing about her, but also something I see like a lot of parallels with some of the other women that we've had that we've talked about on the podcast. Like I love Harriet Tubman for very similar reasons. Yeah. Because she didn't just save herself.

she decided to take the risk and go back and save hundreds of others. And she, like you were talking a lot about how great Nancy was with her intuition. She was so connected to that like inner wisdom and discernment that she had. How she had fine tuned that I would love to know. Like that's my question. Like what was it that she did that cultivated that? Or was it just innate within her? Or did her parents raise her a certain way that she just knew, you know? I'd love to tap into that.

She does have an autobiography. I have not read it yet, but I'm going to. I didn't realize it until I was kind of putting my notes together. I'll have to check that out because same with Harriet Tubman. Like she instinctively knew exactly where to go and she was very spiritual about it. And I just think like to be able to go back multiple times and never get caught and save lots of, know, it's not just yourself that's trying to escape your, you know, like

That's incredible trust in yourself. Incredible trust. Yeah. What does that person's to be able to do that? Like with seemingly just such quick knowing and ease, like what does that person's body feel like? You know what I mean? What does their body feel like? What is, what is their internal dialogue? Like we need that formula. You know what I mean? Something you said,

Harriet Tubman, like definitely strong parallels there. It, a takeaway I, reminds me of when you, mentioned like, here's two, like they, they obviously had this similar wiring to be able to do this, right? This quick instinctual survival. And a sense that they wanted to help other people. It wasn't just about them. So one of my takeaways that I, that I, walking into right now.

A strong sense of purpose, strong sense of purpose fuels accomplishing the unthinkable. So I want to, I want to read my, my notes just so that, because I took time to really like think this out. So I'm going, I am going to look down and read. When our purpose extends beyond our own needs and serves a greater good, it's more powerful. The larger purpose sustains us.

It ignites bravery in a way that overcomes the fear. So the bravery is stronger than the fear. I cannot imagine that those two women had no fear in their body. So then how, right? Then how were you able to like carry the fear?

and still make good decisions, carry the fear and still feel safe enough to have a clear head. To me, it's like, then it's bigger than just you. Like to reach that level of bravery is like a call to a greater purpose, right? You know what I mean? that's really what, cause I was thinking the same exact way you are. Like what is it that allows a woman

or anyone to like on the spot without question be able to just execute flawlessly. And that's, you know, that's kind of where I landed with that. Like it's just the bravery because of the call to the purpose is much, much greater than the fear. If you think about like survival, right? Like we have to...

We have to be, if you're surviving, like you're safe. Like so our survival, like this is a theory I have and hopefully I don't butcher it. But it's like in those moments, right? So they have this call to this greater purpose that's igniting bravery that's greater than fear. And so I almost wonder if our bodies know in order to keep us alive, that safety has to be just rooted and felt or your brain will not think clearly.

You know, it's like, I always wonder if in an emergency situation or, you know, freaking end times or the apocalypse, like, you always wonder, right? Like, how long would I stick around? Because you see those scenes in those movies where the ones that go quick, they make the bad quick call. There's, it's that like freeze flight. Yeah. Fight.

for flight, freeze and fawn. Yeah, and you're like, you know, the, and Nicole, I've had a couple moments that I'm like, I hate saying them out loud because I'm like, I gotta, how do I overcome this? An example last week where, where I, I think it would be characterized as fight, but a quick one is like a couple of weeks ago, we were sitting on our porch, super chill Sunday, temps perfect.

Our dogs have been trained to sit on the porch and not run off. And we live in like a city, right? So cars drive by, bicycles, people, you've heard my dog, right? So he's always like yapping at anything that moves. And so for us to be there and like, there, we can trust that they won't sprint off. It was like an accomplishment. Well, we.

We thought we could trust them. So a pit bull is in the distance and, my Docs in sprints off barking to go attack a freaking pit bull. Now you don't have to put this in your podcast cause it's pretty dark, but like in December, my grandma was killed by a pit bull. So I have like, I have like pit bull PTSD and I'm seeing my dog who I freaking love sprint.

after a pit bull. And I'm like, so my mind is like, this means death. I don't remember. I broke a glass. I was having a glass of wine with Cody, my husband at the time. I broke a glass. I sprinted off. And then when I get off up to the dogs, I fell and like scraped myself really badly. I mean, I don't know if I really helped the situation that much. Like

Eventually it all ended up fine. the, the, the pit bull was not, not very aggressive. I mean, it was kind of like, what the hell little dog, like you're just in my bubble. But like that, that takeaway, I was like shook for days, purely down to what we're talking about here. Like, I don't want to react. I want to be strong in those moments, you know? So it's like,

What is that? How do we get there? You know, to like, I'm cultivating it in the work place. I've, I've, I've learned to cultivate it in relationships, even with new people I meet. So like, is it, is it the same wires that just need to be rooted to like be able to, you know, respond in emergency situations? I don't know. Yeah, it just, really terrified me that that.

That's how I reacted. And that was just like a dog running after a dog. How would you have wanted to react in that situation? That is a really great question. And I actually did think about that. You know, I'm a runner. So I think using a strength, right, leaning into a strength, like I am a strong runner. So I think I still would have ran, but

I didn't have a clear head. So I think maybe there's a moment before, you know, these women took action of like a clearing of the head and like a focus on, okay, this is what we, this situation's happening. This is what we're going to do. Yeah, I think just taking literally two seconds.

to just like before taking action is probably what I would have done because I just let my body react and it's like my head wasn't there. I think that is so insightful, Nicole. So you still would have ran, but before you ran, you would have taken a little bit of time first to see exactly where you needed to run to and how you were going to run. I have mace spray, wrist mace spray that I...

Always have my wrist when I go out for runs and it's, it's, it's truly mostly for dogs. Then is worried about people because I live in a busy place. It was right inside. I'm pointing to my front door, where are my porches? And I have a key thing that hangs there. I have like three mace sprays hanging. If I would have taken that second, I would have reached in the house. I would have grabbed the mace because the mace isn't going to kill the pit bull. You know, if he's dangerous, it can at least like.

You know what I mean? Like that, honestly, that's what I would die. It's not going to kill the dog. Like I probably would have liked to have thought that way. And maybe some, maybe that's controversial because it's still kind of considered a weapon, but, um, like I'm a small human. if it's like, I also need to be able to protect myself. think what you said is so brilliant. It reminds me of, okay, Lionel Messi is this very famous soccer player.

Okay, he's probably one of the most world renowned soccer players. And the thing about Lionel Messi is he has terrible anxiety. So like before he'd go onto a game, he would be throwing up. And it was actually a joke, people would joke about it. Like, we can't entrust Lionel Messi to be the captain of this team, because he can't even hold his, he just keeps throwing up before he's a mess before the game. I don't know if it was like one of his coaches that helped him figure out a way for him to.

to deal with that, but basically what they did is, or what he decided to do, and I don't know who influenced him or what, but what he decided to do was every time the game started, he was just gonna walk on the field. He wasn't gonna engage with his teammates. He wasn't gonna engage with the other team. And for the first five minutes of the game, he just watched everything. And like he is famously known for being like, he walks most of the game. He doesn't run.

very much at all. And by doing that, he's like getting himself centered. And so what you said just aligns perfectly with that. It's like you're in the game, but you're just taking that time and space to settle yourself and to see the field and let the other people kind of, cause that's what happens is it would draw out people from his opponents in a certain way when he would just walk, right? Kind of like to sort of them a little bit.

And I think that's so true. It just, when you said that, it made me think of that. I'm like, my gosh, it's, it's just taking the time, giving ourselves the time and space to know ourselves. And so it kind of goes back to this, sitting outside by ourselves doing nothing, you know, just doing nothing. What a full circle conversation. That's such a great point. Like it's yeah, it's do nothing. Even if it's

different increments of time, but that do nothing is first. Yeah, it's like, don't just do nothing. Don't think about it. Just like get comfortable with what your body's feeling. Yeah, get safe and centered in your body. Yes, but and I think the only like I think about it and I'm not great at this. I'm learning how to do it because I never learned safety as a kid. Are you kidding? I was not in a safe situation. And so I feel like sometimes I'm five years old and I'm having to learn it all over again, Nicole.

being real. But I think like what I what I love about it is like the more that you just sit with what your bodily sensations are, you start to notice what is safe for you and what is not and when's danger and when's not danger and the better you get at that I think the better you'll be able to make decisions quickly, you know, like, and I'm, mean, you can and I think you can start simple, you know, like

You know, rather than danger, cause danger sounds, God, that sounds pit bull. Yeah. Right. Pit bull. Like how about just like what feels good to you and what doesn't. pay attention to how you feel, not what you think. Yes. How do you physically feel? Yeah. Because our brain, our brain will like, if we start there, you know, spin, you know, there's a spin. There's the what ifs.

There's the fear and if you simply start in the body with just stillness and simple question, you know, and then like let the body tell you, let the feeling in the body tell you. And it's like, it's, I think that's the, that's instincts, right? Like, I think that's how you tap into your instincts. So true.

I just immediately thought of my daughter who's nine and I don't remember how it came up, but I was asking her like, how do you feel when mommy gives you a hug? And she said, I feel safe. And when she said that I was like, oh my gosh, it made me think like, how can I give that to myself? know, how can I like give my own body a hug so I can feel safe? You know, I just thought that was so wise on her part, like to be like, you know, she was just new right away. She's like, oh, I feel safe.

She didn't say, feel loved. She said, I feel safe. And I think sometimes safety is like the foundation of love. I've just had this word become such a big thing because of seeing how much better you make it for other people when you have it. It's the whole like, you you can't love others until you love yourself. You can't love.

yourself as sweetly if you don't feel safe. You can still love yourself and not have that, but it's much sweeter from a safe place. And really, what isn't? Like, what isn't better when you feel safe? Your mind is clear, you're more creative, you're relaxed, right? Because with safety, like, fear is...

I mean, I don't think fear really ever goes, especially if you're a growth person, like you can't get rid of fear. But if you have such a strong safety system, it's like, okay, yeah. Like, know, you're going to be okay. No, what, no matter what, because you trust yourself. And I think it can start to be autopilot. You know, I think about Nancy Wake and Harriet Tubman, like,

the just constant, like making the right call in unpredictable, dangerous, life-threatening situations, just boom, boom, boom. It's like, was that just like, did it become something that just unconsciously rooted for them? like, you know what I mean? Like how? Yeah, you know what's, I love this because I think every time Nancy Wake,

reacted and trusted her intuition. She is teaching herself. She is like every single time practicing it. So she's like, I learned you're building it. So every time you like feel afraid, like she did, she was in fearful situations. She was afraid. She trusted her instincts. Boom. She's learning. She's like fueling that internal discernment over time. so like maybe, and same with Harriet Tubman. It's like, maybe it's like,

putting yourself in those fearful situations that are scary and knowing they're going to be scary and saying, you know what, I'm going to put myself in this scary situation and I'm going to trust my instincts and see what happens. And then I'm going to learn and then I'm to do it again and then I'm going to do it again and then I'm going to do it again. And every time I do it, it's going to get better and better and better. you know, maybe in some ways Nancy Wake got real lucky that she never like, you know, got injured or because I think as we, as I've

tried to do that. I think as other people too, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to fall down. You're not going to get it right every single time. There's going to be times when you're going to, you're going to really get it wrong. That's a really great point in this because it's really easy to read her story and just be like, this woman was freaking flawless. Like she never made a bad call. be honest, they're not, from what I've seen, that's not what's shared, right? But I guarantee you there's no way in hell that like,

this situation played out five years of her life and there weren't extreme blunders. So that's a really good point. So I don't want to leave that, but the one thing you made me think of when you were saying, you know, they're, putting themselves in these situations time and time again. had the thought of like those credibility and trust, like you give yourself the credibility and you.

gain more trust in yourself with each stacking one. You know what I mean? It's like, how much confidence in your own instincts and how much you trust yourself after a series of all of those trials that you proved yourself. So it's like stacking those like, and we could do that in our daily lives, right? I'm super spiritual and manifest as a

Manifesting is a big word in the spiritual realm and one of the formulas of manifesting is looking for the evidence that you already have it. know, so, but you, so it's, it's, reversing the, the, the lack state of mind is really what it's doing. So you, in this case, I have bad survival instincts, right? Like if I'm, if I think that.

because I saw the evidence of the pitbull situation. then, then I could start to stack all the evidence that, yep, that's true. Well, okay. Let's, we don't want that. I'd rather live on the other side of that. I start stacking the evidence that I am strong at that. And you can start simple. Like I didn't slice my thumb when I was dicing onions the other day, like lot of people, my husband being one of them.

is always freaking cutting himself when he's chopping up veggies. I don't, I never do. And that's actually true. I don't. So like you start to stack those evidences on top of each other and then it's just like, that's it. That's you. That's how you move and groove like without even trying. So, you know, could be something there. I love that so much. It reminds me of like a...

I spoke in London this June and I remember when I was waiting to hear back if I had submitted my application and it was a real long shot. didn't think I was, you know, I was like, this is long. But I remember I bought a puzzle that was like a puzzle of London. And I remember I was like, I'm gonna just do this puzzle. I'm gonna put myself in the space that I'm there, like as if I'm, you know, and it was so fun. And I did that puzzle and I was just, for me, that was manifesting. I was like,

I'm doing this puzzle because I know that I'm going to end up, you know, if I think about it, if I put myself there, even, you know, with my little pieces. And so it was like a really cool example. I was like, this is a small thing, but I believe that. I believe when you actually, if there's something that you want, if you actually take small steps, as simple as that, to just envision that for yourself, do something small, it will happen.

Yeah. And I love that example because it's just like light. You're doing a puzzle. it's, it's, you know, it's really, it's not that deep. It's not that deep and it's just, it's light and feels good and it's playful, you know? So I love like wrapping that energy around something we want so badly. Yeah. So cool. Well, I love so many things you share about.

I think you're a poet, Nicole. If you don't write poetry, you should. Because you said something that was just so beautiful. You can't love yourself as sweetly if you don't feel safe. I just want to put that on my wall. It's so beautiful. You can't love yourself as sweetly if you don't feel safe. You can't love your daughter as sweetly if you don't feel safe, right? So, good. I'm sorry. You were saying something else. No, but you're absolutely right. know, like my tendency to be a workaholic.

no questions impacted my relationships, you know? And I think about that and I look back and I think, man, I'm gonna do it differently from now on, you know? I'm not gonna, I don't want to have that, yeah, anyway. But you know. There's a statement, speaking of poetry, I I appreciate that. I will, I have never thought myself to be.

you, you, are a poet, my friend. I aspire to be, which is why I left the agency to find my voice. that means a lot, but something I said off the cuff at the retreat was grow from peace, not pressure. And what is peace? Peace is safety. Like you can't be at peace and not feel safe. Like those, those two are like, I,

they're twins or at least right. Yeah. So true. So if you are in a state of pressure, anxiety, you're then in your body is your body's calling for safety. And it's, it's actually, find it easier to cultivate than people might think. I listened to a podcast a while ago with a monk and he said that

He was sharing people's visits to the, what did I want to say? Montessori is, is that right? That's the name. That's a school. yeah. The monastery, the monastery. Yeah. People check themselves in there and a lot of times, you know, I don't think they know exactly what they're looking for or what they're going to get out of it. They, it's just like a, need to strip myself because the world is chaos. Right. To me.

They go there, you know, a sense of peace and safety. But he made a point that it was really about freedom. You know, we, we are often in environments where, if you really check in with your body, there's not a sense of freedom in you. like you think going to work, people, you know, clock in for eight hours. And I think for the majority, it's like you're at work because you have to be. So you're not free, but really what.

What people walk away with is the realization that freedom is created in the body. So any situation you put yourself in, this is your world, this body that we get to live in, no matter what the environment is. This is your universe. And if you prefer to live in a free one, in a safe one, then you can create it. It's not external.

that the sets that it's, it's, it's you tying external and then like applying it to you. So I've hopefully explained that well enough. I think I kind of butchered it, but when I heard it, I was driving to work and I was like a couple of weeks into this job. And one of my greatest fears was loss of freedom. I was a self employed, as you know, there is freedom with that.

course we're both workaholics, but they're still as someone who has taken personality tests after personality tests, tells me I don't like to be controlled. Like I'm an Enneagram eight. Are you an eight? I'm a seven. yeah. I'm a seven through and through. Sometimes I have a wing eight. Sometimes my wing eight comes out and then sometimes my wing six, but I I'm a seven with the wing eight sometimes.

Yeah, I'm eight with wing seven. That doesn't surprise me. Yeah, I know, right? Everyone. I was at a dinner party last week and the girl guessed. I was like, my gosh, do I just like radiate this? So yeah, what's your Myers-Briggs? I've actually never taken that one. have you done the disc? Yes, and it was whatever one is like an eight. The D, probably the D.

I was a do-er. How funny. So control. Yeah. So like control for me in all these tests is like, you don't like to be controlled. So I leave my self-employed free job, you know, my free situation and I sign up to, you know, manufacturing start time 6.30 AM till 4 PM. It's like clock in clock, you know, two years ago, there's no fucking way I could have done

Because I wasn't where I am in my growth journey. Like that would, I would just like sit in there and feel trapped. And so it was cool to hear that message, you know, two weeks in and like, it's never, it reset me. Like I swear for life where I'm just like, matter where I am at, I get to decide if I'm free in my body again, like going back to feeling in your body.

I get to decide if I want to feel free. It doesn't matter what's going on around me. It's so empowering, so liberating to think that way. When you take ownership and responsibility over it in that way, you're less of a victim of whatever circumstance you're in. you're saying, I'm going to choose and I have the ability to create that for myself. It's really empowering. And it gives you the freedom. Like you can still not like it. have freedom rooted in you and you can still say like,

this place sucks. Like I'm going to be here, but you're still internally free and safe. You know, like, yeah. So it's like, it's not, it's not living in delusion. It's just taking ownership of our own little universe. call, you know, our body. So Nicole, I just want to talk to you all day. So it is great.

This is pretty, awesome. just really like, the best conversations are like the, ooh, ah, ooh, ah, Oh, and I knew that was gonna be that when I was planning for this interview. I was like, this is gonna be just so organic and full of juicy wisdom because I know you and you're just, have this very, you just have such deep wisdom. And I think...

I personally believe that people like you and I and many others who've gone through childhood trauma, you do have a deep discernment and almost like this truth, ability to see things for what they are. That is a gift that comes like a byproduct of that experience. It's just like, you can snuff it out. Like you see the truth, the heart of things and that deep empathy.

that you have when you go through those kinds of experiences really helps you, I think, be so intuitive. So I see that in you. I think it's really a beautiful, beautiful quality about you. That's what makes for such an incredible recipe for conversation between us. like, it's so cherished too when you find those people. Like I love my husband. He's a rad dude. He's super fun. He's got big curly hair.

He's so smart, he's bit nerdy, but without going through a similar experience, like type of childhood, these types of questions are, or these types of conversations, I think only happen when you've got that, because it's a lens, right? It's a lens that you look through life that it's no fault to anyone else. have incredible conversations with him and a lot of my friends.

that is a lens that you now like that you wear. so things. I see things a little bit more deeply. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And you think about things more deeply. Same. My husband, you know, he grew up in a very different circumstance. I swear. Are we twins or what? I just need to dye my hair blonde and move to Indiana and then I'll be. Or, you know, vice versa, because.

You're arguably in a cooler... I always want to say Virginia, but I know it's wrong. No, yeah, that's right. I'm in Virginia. yeah. I live like 20 minutes from DC. You got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I think that maybe we should come to you also great, great winery. Yeah. There's a lot of good wineries in Virginia for sure. I don't drink wine, but I've heard they're amazing. Like especially...

Central Virginia has some great wineries in there, the Blue Ridge Mountains and yeah. So it's actually on our list at some point. When you come, you can come stay. Well, yeah, obviously. So yeah, maybe we'll just maybe I'll dye my hair brown and I'm just saying like we can chat through that and see where we land. sounds so great. I'm just like.

I'm thankful to Mark Schaeffer for bringing us together. know, like it's just so, I find like the older I get, the more I realize how special the people, your networks are, you know, like, cause you just never know who's going to connect you to who and how and what. And so yeah, I'm just really, I'm grateful that, you know, that all kind of the universe all kind of, you know, the way that all aligned, you know, very serendipitous. Yeah.

I'm sure you can do this too. You look back at like things, know, experiences like that, or like for me, another one is studying abroad when I was in my twenties, I went to Australia and it's like, there are such big investments and then you walk away. And of course the experience was great, but the people, like the people you meet where you're like, damn, like that was, that's what I spent money on. Cause that was the best.

The retreat was great, but like this relationship is greater. Totally. I feel the same way. That was what was really cool about that. It's like I went on this hike this last weekend. We went to Shenandoah, me and a couple of friends and we were going to hike this nine mile hike, Nicole. And it was so much fun. had such a great like literally we were talking the whole time. Like you really if you want to get to know someone, you go on a hike with them, not just like a two mile hike. It's all they hike and then get lost. And then you get to see.

you know, how it really goes, you know? So we like a nine mile hike and we went, made a wrong turn and ended up going down a horse trail that we weren't supposed to go down. The minute we realized it, we're like, we're just going to have to turn around and go back. And we just like, hightailed it back. and it was just like the similar thing. Like we had such a fun time and it was the people. It's cause we were together and we were having such a great time. And yeah, it sucked. Like I remember walking back up that.

I was walking up that horse trail after going down it and it was hard and I was like, this sucks, but I'd do it again. So how long did that take? 15 miles. We started hiking at eight 30 hours, eight 30. We didn't get back until six. Oh my gosh. And it wasn't like a flat hike. was like straight up and like stair steps, like natural steps. Okay. And then down. So I think I took like five years off the life of my knees.

I'm going to get a knee replacement five years earlier. But anyway, it was worth it. It was totally worth it. Well, my last question for you, Nicole, and then I'm going to let you go because I can't hide. can't hide. got pumpkin bread to eat. And I'm sure you've got to your dog. I've got to work out because I took two days off and I am someone who's pretty dedicated to movement. So I'm going to do that.

good. You do that. What's your final parting words like to any woman who is watching this? What's one word of advice that you would give to them? This is loaded, Nicole. I might take a couple tries at this, okay? Totally fine. Yep. I know it's about safety. So my hope for everyone that hears this is that they learn to root safety within them.

So that everything around them becomes better, sweeter, more enjoyable. I think to get to the place of safety is an acceptance, meeting ourselves where we're at and really feeling into our bodies. See, this is what I'm working this out. So basically I'm trying to provide a formula so that your listeners can walk away with.

And you know, we, actually worked this out together, you and I, the stillness and just allowing of the body and its feeling, giving no, no, no judgment, right? It's just a safe, creating that safe space. That's what you're doing. So I'm, working this out and it, is rough draft though, Nicole. This is why I keep rocking back and forth because I'm like, this is a, this is a paper.

It's already been beautiful. I'm telling you, it's been gorgeous. It's the million dollar question, right? How do you create rooted safety in your body so that you can show up as a safe space for everyone around you? And that's strangers too, right? Like what more beauty could happen around us if we were a safe space to anyone in our company?

You know, like what connections could you, could we be having that we're not having that we wouldn't have in a parallel universe where we weren't safe in our bodies? Those misconnections that happen, you know, the opportunity cost to our relationships and our lives when we're not safe in our bodies. What I hope for everyone.

really everyone, like if I can just blanket across the world, would say safety in our bodies would, I would love to test the hypothesis to see if that would just save like world peace, right? But for people listening, leaving them with one thing is the, from what I've learned and at this point, people know a lot about my life through this podcast.

What I've learned, the wisdom I can leave with people is the more you cultivate that safety in your body, the better everything, everything around you becomes. And I think that the dialogue and the points that you and I have gotten to from that topic probably is enough to help someone dial in their own formula. Yeah.

Bravo. It's different. It's different for everyone. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Bravo to you too. like you are a natural and you're like, this is, this is a space you're meant to be in. So thank you. That means a lot. I love it. I love it. I drive two hours a day. I'm going to have hello Moxie. that means so much to me. Nicole. I can't tell you like,

the imposter syndrome and the just all of the, know, who do you think you are kind of stuff. But you know what? I just have to keep going back to I'm doing it because I love it. I just love it so much, you know, and I want to do stuff that I love. I'm at a point in my life where most of my life I've been just doing stuff that other people told me to do. And I want to do what I want to do. And I'm not going to be feel guilty about it. So this is that.

Whether people listen or not. And I cannot wait to see like what that outfit looks like on you because like it's so deserved, you know, like you're so loving, like you radiate just like love and kindness and you know, knowing your, your history and just like pushing through all, you know, the pressure that you've put on yourself and like,

You know, like that's, that's heavy shit. Like pushing through extreme pressure. That's, that's like chains on our body, you know, especially stacked. Yeah. It's chains. It's living in chains. And like for someone so loving and kind, it's like, just like, imagine you just like breaking out of those and stepping into like the most boldest like

boss bitch outfit, dress you are like, that dress is like me feeling like a million bucks. Like I just picture you like walking through the rest of your life in that dress because you're like, I'm done with these. You know what I mean? But like those, I think we, you know, we realized in the top of this conversation, like those chains from the trauma led us to the wisdom. So.

You can part ways with those chains with a sense of gratitude now. Yes, exactly. Exactly. That is what I think that is so important when you've gone through what we've gone through is to learn what you can from it. You got to learn from it and you got to feel it. You've got to feel the pain of it all. You got to feel the anger. You've got to feel the grief, the loss. You have to feel those things and give yourself space to breathe in those places.

and let yourself feel it, but then just say thank you because I'm learning so much. anyway. For me, it was like the realization, you know, when you, you can feel it, right? Going back to the feeling, like you can, you can feel it in your body when you've like turned a corner with it. Like you're not fighting it at least like a fractional amount, you know, like can feel when you're like, okay, something

Like we've figured out the relationship between us in a healthy way. Like you have a relationship with the chains. Yeah. Where it's like a teenager fighting their mom, you know, they, they reached their twenties and thirties and they're like, I'm not going to fight you anymore. I'm not going to fight you anymore. Like you're part of me. You're part of my family. You're part of my heritage. made me, you made me who I am. You taught me lessons. You taught me wisdom.

Like you showed me how to, like you created this authenticity recipe that is me. So that's been a fun way for me to, to spend it. Yeah. I, I'll say one more thing and then I promise I'll let you go. I think for me, like what I've noticed and I'm like still, I'm still in it, still trying to process through a lot of stuff. One of the things I've noticed is I say no more than I ever have before. And.

I'm okay with it. Like I say no more and I'll ask for what I want or what I need, you know, in ways that I never have before. And that's something that I'm like, to me, I'm like, that's an indication that I'm growing, right? I can, I'm saying no, and I ask for what I need and even what I want. Yeah. And you feel safe to say no.

Like if you're in, if just hearing the way that your tone when you were saying that it's like, wow, like, yeah, she's like not struggling to say no. I think it's in you, but you had to struggle and sit like, I'm sure saying no at first was a struggle, right? So yeah, even still sometimes it is if I'm being honest, like there's still times where after I say the no, I feel uncomfortable and I, but I,

going into it, I know I say to myself, you're gonna feel this is gonna feel uncomfortable for you. You're not gonna feel comfortable because for 42 years or whatever, it's never been comfortable for you to say no. So it's not gonna feel comfortable when you're learning to do something new for a little while until you get, you know, practice it and get better at it, you know? So, yeah. That is like, I, when you said it just like that, I'm like, oh, that's, I think I.

think we might have talked about this. Like when you're in an insecure spot, like talking to yourself like you would your daughter or your best friend. that's exactly how, that's what it reminded me of. Like the way you were saying that, it's just like, that just shows so much health in your relationship with yourself if that's how you're talking to yourself, you know? yeah, and I came a long way with that because like,

As someone like you who like puts a lot of pressure on yourself, like that pressure used to be a very bitchy ass dialogue in my head. Like, you're not helping. Like a rude, dialogue. It's like you're swimming up a It's like you're swimming up a river fighting a current.

That's what, at least for me, that's what it's felt like. But you can't let yourself go downstream. You just can't let go. That's a wrap for today's episode of Hello Moxie. I hope you felt that unbreakable thread connecting you to the women of the past, to the trailblazing pioneers of today. Their stories of audacity, resilience, and courage are a powerful reminder of what's possible for you when you choose to live with Moxie.