Ronu Spirit
Follow Hameed's learning journey through conversations with experts as he explores ways to empower African nations, address the legacies of colonisation, and enhance global respect for Black people and the African diaspora.
If you know of any authors, historians, academics etc that will be interested in discussing that topic, please let reach out and let us know. Hameed would love to speak to them.
Ronu Spirit
Episode 1: Revitalizing Africa - The Role of Education and Awareness with Patricia Lamour
In this episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, we explore the extraordinary journey of Patricia Lee Sang Lamour MBE, a pivotal figure in the establishment of Black History Month in the UK and a lifelong advocate for education and social justice. From her early activism inspired by personal experiences of racial injustice to her influential roles in youth projects and international education initiatives, Patricia's story is one of resilience and dedication. The discussion covers her pioneering work with the Pan African Women's Liberation Organization, the founding of a school in Germany, and her impactful tenure as head of an international school in Gambia. Patricia also shares insights into the Aspire Education Group and the Future Ed Awards, initiatives aimed at celebrating black excellence and fostering educational equity. Her words of wisdom on self-care, community engagement, and the importance of individual influence offer inspiration for all listeners.
Guest Links
Aspire Education Group website: https://aspireeducationgroup.com/
Future Ed website: https://www.future-edgroup.com/
Patricia Lamour's linkedin profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patricialamour/
Host Links
Dr Sumaira Farha's Instagram: @thetriculturalpsychologist
Chapters
(00:00) Podcast begins
00:43 Introduction to the Ronu Spirit Podcast
00:58 Meet Patricia Lee Sang Lamour
02:08 Patricia's Early Life and Activism
02:59 The Impact of the SUS Law
06:25 Challenges in Pursuing Medicine
07:53 Joining the Greater London Council
11:13 Black History Month in the UK
15:35 Critiques of Black History Month
18:04 Patricia's Move to Germany
24:06 Establishing the Sankofa School
30:03 Organizing the Pan African Congress
33:02 Setting Up the Pan African Women's Liberation Organization
33:51 Relocating to Gambia
34:51 Challenges of Leading an International School
37:02 Changing the Mindset of Privileged Students
42:55 Introducing African Literature and Cultural Awareness
47:51 Founding Aspire Education Group
01:00:17 Practical Advice for Creating Change
01:04:24 Final Reflections and Words of Wisdom
young black people were picked up being equipped to steal. That means they had a bomber jacket on, they had a gym bag, and they running shoes, and their offensive weapon was an afro comb.
We launched Black History Month.
Yeah. And then that's how Black History Month came to the UK.
they were in Germany. They were supposed to be at the school during a school fete and the children stoned them. the elite, wherever they are, whichever country, but particularly in Africa, my motto is, you are given more because you're supposed to give more.
If you don't infuse in them, this sense of service leadership, they become spoiled. and privileged and entitled and ultimately not of use to the country's development
Introduction to the Ronu Spirit Podcast
Amazing.
I've
right. So hello everyone. Welcome to the bonus spirit podcast, where you will be joining my, just do that again.
the
My voice was croaky.
📍 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Ronu spirit podcast, where you will be joining my learning journey around African history, developments, and. Issues that affect people of the global majority.
Meet Patricia Lee Sang Lamour
Today's guest is Patricia Lee Sang Lamour. Now, Patricia Lee Sang Lamour MBE was part of the pioneering team that helped bring Black History Month to the UK in 1986. She co founded the Pan African Women's Liberation Organization in Germany and set up a Sankofa school there in 1992. She helped organize the first Women's Pan African Congress in Uganda.
In 1994, and became the head of the top international school and college in Gambia in 2002. In 2010, she founded Aspire Education Group, a global leader in education and workforce development, responsible for prestigious, responsible for prestigious initiatives like the Future Ed Awards, an award that celebrates black excellence in education.
And most impressive of all, she did this. All with five children constantly by our side whilst being a two time cancer survivor. So welcome to the podcast, Patricia. It's great to have you. Hello. Or should I say auntie Pat, because obviously I know you as auntie Pat. It's great to have you. So yes. Amazing.
Patricia's Early Life and Activism
So, um, I want to begin this by talking about your journey because obviously you've done a lot of amazing things over your time. Um, and I want to start with where it started from the very beginning. I, I want to start with, first of all, if you can. If you can explain how you got into this space and what you were doing and what triggered your, your, what, what, what was the catalyst that led you into the space that you are currently in?
I think the, the main thing growing up the eldest of eight children Um, and seeing my parents, um, come here as, as a part of the Windrush generation from Jamaica
Mm hmm.
and setting up business, um, I was very aware of, of what was happening in the world. So it wasn't just the family, you know, I was involved as well, my other brothers and sisters in, in helping with developing the business.
The Impact of the SUS Law
But I think the main thing that really triggered me to become more conscious of being black. And, uh, needing to promote black rights was what happened to my brother, my second brother. He was picked up by the police. He was actually up and down, walking up and down Oxford Street with my uncle, who'd come over from Hong Kong.
showing him the sights, and he was with his friend, and the police picked him up on a charge that we'd never even heard of. It was called sus.
Sus.
sus, it means being a suspected person.
So as in suspicious.
yeah, suspicious. And this is a, I think it was a vagrancy law going back to something like 1894 or something like that, in the 1800s, following the Napoleonic Wars, when people came back from war and were obviously homeless, penniless, begging on the streets.
It was a law that the police then used to clear out the streets. And here we have Sus in the 19, the late 1970s.
actually being used by the police, it was clear it was targeting young black boys. and this is how they were being put away for up to three months in jail for, yes, for, for being a suspected person. So in other words, the police didn't have to prove they'd stolen anything. And there had to be nobody who actually called the police to say, they're trying to steal something from me.
They could just pick them up and say, they look suspicious. We saw them dipping in and out of women's handbags, or we saw them, you know, furtively moving around there, and they would be sent down. And this was the beginning of criminalization of young black young people in this
So,
And so that's how I got involved.
so I'm just trying to understand. So when you say picked up by the police, you just meant like the police showed up randomly. Um, said we're picking you up and took him to jail. That's it.
yes, yes.
Interesting.
No, shocking. It's not interesting, it's shocking. Um, there was even a thing where young black people were picked up being equipped to steal. That means they had a bomber jacket on, they had a gym bag, and they running shoes, and their offensive weapon was an afro comb.
I see.
So all that was actually part of the targeting of young black boys in particular.
End of, uh, you know, 70s. And, um,
So when that
it was, that happened in 1976 to my brother around that time. And it just was a wake up call for me because my mother, uh, went to Jamaican embassy, got a lawyer, got my brother off. But then, of course, with that, and I started to look into that, I thought, how could that be?
And, um, at the time, I'd, I'd finished, um, I can't remember if I'd finished university, but I, I did, um, I did volunteer work for the Martin Luther King Foundation that was here in the UK. And I actually went and, and, and, and worked with someone who was working on the whole SUS law. She, she later become Minister of International Development in this country.
mhm,
Um, but I followed her, and you know, she went to all the courts, and she just listened to all the evidence of the police, and it was the same. I saw suspect X dipping into and out of women's handbags for how much, how many minutes. And as a result, um, these boys were sent down for just under three months.
So, um, this made me change my mind.
Challenges in Pursuing Medicine
I'd wanted to do medicine.
Okay.
I'd wanted to become a doctor. So I didn't get into medical school. I think there was also discrimination there. I remember in my interview for medical school I was asked why I didn't want to be a nurse. So here I am, you know, with the right qualifications for becoming a doctor and I'm at an interview at, I think it was St.
George's, asking why don't I want to be a nurse? I'm not sure whether other uh, white, uh, females or males would have been asked that question. So, I didn't get into medical school straight away, so what I decided to do was to do Physiology and Biochem. So I did my first degree in Physiology and Biochemistry because I planned to transfer over and get into medicine that way.
You could do that if you do a first degree there. But in the meantime, so this is what happened, then my brother got picked up and I just woke up and then decided this is not right and I was going to do something about it.
And that's what started your journey down the road
Yeah, that started, you know, and then I joined, uh, one of the best youth, uh, projects in South London, the Tooting Youth Project. And I pioneered work with girls back in the late 70s. and did outreach work with young boys and girls, took them camping. Uh, I did summer schools, uh, taught children, um, in the summer.
Mm hmm. And all of that just really made me connect with what was happening with my community, with the black community in London.
Joining the Greater London Council
And then I was headhunted to join the Greater London Council.
GLC.
the GLC, yeah. Um, uh, and you know, I had an interview, and I became the Ethnic Minority Youth Officer for London.
One. The only one.
hmm. Okay.
But what was, what was good about that, it was attached to grants, so I could actually recommend organisations all across London. So that's what I did.
I
I actually went and visited young, that's how I knew so many people, I went everywhere. So, yeah.
Okay.
Lewisham, Brixton Newham. Um, yeah.
Recommending grants to young, black and Asian groups, um,
Speaking of black and Asian, actually, it's a very interesting thing because you said something in the beginning that I'm sure the listeners, um, may have picked up on, which is that your uncle came from Hong Kong, which, um, and for those who are listening, um, would you like to just. Talk a little bit more about your identity.
Um, like, you know, apart from being black and being Jamaican, what
other identities do you hold?
Okay Yeah I'm Jamaican. Uh, but my grand, both my grandfathers were Chinese. And so one of the things, I don't know if they still do it now, but in my father's time, when you're away from home, which would be from China, you're supposed to send your first son back home to, to grow up there if you have many children.
So he was sent back, um, my uncle was sent back to, to China. to then Hong Kong, which I think at that time, I think it was owned by Britain still. Um, and he, he did extremely well. He became a top Hong Kong banker.
Oh, wow
Yeah.
and you know, so you you held, um, you hold, um, Um, you know you're chinese as part of your identity, but you're also black. You're also jamaican um, the work that you've dedicated your life to is on the black side and um, Would you like is there a reason for that?
Because as I was growing up, I wasn't being ridiculed or getting racist name calling or people weren't reacting towards me in a negative way because of my Chinese heritage. were reacting towards me because of my African heritage.
I
So I decided if I was to make an impact and you know, my brother wasn't picked up because he looked slightly Chinese.
He was picked up because he's black. And so I decided, you know, I have to make a decision. So I did. So I, you know, decided that's who I'm advocating for. And it has changed from being black to being more of a pan Africanist or a global African. Because all black people, and in fact the whole world, you know, the mother of civilisation of all ethnic identities, say, come from Africa.
So, um, yes, I made the change when I lived in Germany. and was connecting with African students from all over the
When you lived in Germany, yes, we haven't even gotten to that part of the story yet. Yeah. You went from, um, being in the GLC to eventually living in Germany. But before you left the GLC, you did something very important. Didn't you? Um, you were working with Mr. Akyaaba Addai Sebo?
yes,
yes,
So
the founder
bit about that.
How, how, how, how did that happen?
Black History Month in the UK
yeah, he was part of the team, you know, um, It was a time of what was called by other outsiders of municipal socialism apparently, the GLC, under Ken Livingstone, who was the mayor then. And so there was the ethnic minorities unit, and we were giving out grants to black organizations, to women's organizations, to any, group that had been disenfranchised or excluded from the normal process, and so it was a time when everybody and everybody came down to the GLC and we had a migrants and refugee team and Adai was an African migrant but he was also very pan Africanist and so when he came up with the idea, it was his idea, uh, about,
and what is this? What is this idea actually? Because we haven't mentioned it yet. So
The idea first was, um, uh, celebrating, um, the 25th anniversary of the OAU.
This is the founder of the, uh,
OAU is
Organisation for African Unity. This was a precursor organization before the au before the African Union. So it was 25 years, celebrate, uh, celebration, and also 25 years of Marcus Garvey. anniversary. So we did, um, that and we did, um, a series of African historical lectures
Okay.
at the Institute of Education.
Uh, we had Dr. John Henry Clark. We had, um, Ivan Van Sertima. We had, uh, Frances Cress Welsing. We had a series of prominent, um, um, mainly African American, but obviously Ivan Van Sertima is, is, I think it was from Cameroon or French speaking Africa. Um, yeah, who shared their wisdom and their knowledge about,
uh, African history.
at this point, what was that celebration called?
Uh, it was, initially it was, it was called the, uh, OAU and 25th year celebration for Marcus Garvey. And then it morphed into, we launched Black History Month.
Yeah. And then that's how Black History Month came to the UK.
how it started. Yeah, and it was in an October rather than February, as in, um, America.
and, and, um, so first of all, you know, I'm, I'm talking to Part of legend. This is, this is history in the making. You were part of the team that helped make history, even though Adai, it was Adai's idea and Adai led everything. Um, you know, the fact that you're still a part
of
all, he got all the, you know, support from the various, you know, Ansel Wong, um, you know, and other leading people who were in the GLC at the time. But it was a lot of action. Um, it was exciting at that time. Stressful, but very exciting,
Making changes. How did that feel? Like just, you know, did you feel like you were part of history at that time when you were
It was, it, it, it was, everything we did was put on the media. The evening standard, because they were against all what was being done there.
Okay.
it was very, you know, um, you had to double check everything you did, because the lawyers would look at it and everything, if there was any backlash. But, um, the GLC was abolished.
The GLC was abolished, um, through Margaret Thatcher coming into power. All the major metropolitan areas for Manchester, for London, I know those two, they were abolished. And as a result, because these places were labour strongholds.
Hmm.
And as a result, everything that belonged to the GLC also got devolved. And so we had a small body that was left, that was taken over by 11 councils in London.
They formed together, it must be a budget to keep, um, a, a unit. And I was still part of that unit. And then I was designated the Deputy Principal Race Relations Advisor for, for London. Um, So that's what then happened there, but then I, I decided it was time to leave the country.
I see. Okay. Wow. All right. Before we get into you deciding to leave the country, I just wanted to check in with Sumaira. Um, Sumaira, did you have any questions or anything that you wanted to ask or?
Yes. Firstly, I just wanted to say, Oh,
feel free to by, you didn't have to wait for me to ask you. You could just jump in at any
no, no. I think it's nice because, um, I learned a lot about you, Patricia, and it was just really nice to hear about how, um, yeah, just how life unfolded from becoming an aspiring medic, um, to what you achieve now. Um, just putting on my critical lens a little bit, you know, um, I know there's difference of opinions around.
Critiques of Black History Month
Black History Month and I was just wondering, are you familiar with the critiques and what are your responses to some of, some of them, where people argue that it should be all year round or yeah,
should, you should.
it should be,
I have no, I have no problem. You see, at the end of the day, it's like when you launch something,
Mm
you start somewhere, um, and it became a focal point. But, uh, you know, given the history of who we are, where we're coming from, and, you know, encapsulate so many global majority peoples, to squash it all into a month is a bit mad, isn't it really?
So, um, but it is about being inclusive and accurate throughout the year, is it not?
mm Okay.
Yeah.
no, no, that sounds really good. I have similar opinions about the South Asian Heritage Month as well. Depends on how we're using the month and how does that continue throughout the year. So, um, yeah, thank you.
It's like, yeah, okay.
Yeah. I mean, if you have any other questions, let me know. Samira, um, can
See, that was a very easy critical thing, you know, when I disagree, I disagree. That's it. That's
no problem.
Patricia is very straightforward. She
doesn't.
no, no, no, no. Yeah, exactly. I mean, to be fair, um, yeah, I, you know, um, there's criticisms, people have difference of opinions and it's just good to be aware of like your responses to them. And. Yeah, so that was really, um, that was really good.
Wonderful. I have a random question. Um, because you came from Jamaica to the UK, right?
Uh uh. I was born here.
oh, you were born here.
I was born here.
Oh, okay. So, okay. So did you, oh, I see.
That is
You see, many, many, many young people, even though they were born here,
huh.
because they were never really accepted as British,
Mm hmm
and they were called west indian and you know there was this whole travesty
of many children when they came here, being put into educationally subnormal schools. There was a recent, um, uh, BBC, I think it was on the BBC, recent documentary done by a black producer about this whole thing.
So many, many young people trying to find their identity, they went back. and continued patois, you know, their way of being, their way of style, and would claim that they were Jamaican. In fact, many African children from different parts of Africa, remembering there's at least 54 countries, Because of there was a racism there in terms of looking down on people from Africa, which also some people from the Caribbean, even though we're black as well, we're using that.
We've inherited that and involved that. They would try to pretend that they were Jamaican rather than they were from Nigeria or from Uganda or Cameroon. So this is it. And when you even look at the literature, we're still talking about African, Caribbean, In fact, the British, three, four generations here, they hadn't known anywhere else.
interesting. So so you were so you were born and bred in britain, um, and and then You did this amazing thing with the glc. Um,
Patricia's Move to Germany
it was after the glc got abolished that you decided to leave and go to germany
Yeah. I, by, by which time I had, um, uh, I already had my first child and I was pregnant with my second child. And then I followed my, my late husband who was from Haiti, um, who was, uh, still studying. He was doing his master's, his doctorate in, um, in Germany. So I actually followed him to Germany.
I see so that's why you moved to germany
That's right.
Love.
Yes, love. And which is another thing as well. Um, him being from Haiti, like was he, did he grow up there or was he also
Yeah. no, no. no. He was born there,
it was
there.
born there and grew up there and only came to Europe when he was doing his, um, studying.
I see. Okay. And then, and then you were in Germany and then whilst you were in Germany, you did some pretty interesting things there too. You continued your activism. Um, Um, I, I, I mentioned some of that in the intro, um, but would you like to share just a quick overview of, of, of what life
Well, my late husband was, had set up the Afro Kultur Forum. It's an African culture forum because he recognized that many African students in Germany, they were very, first of all, there was racism
Mm hmm.
and they were lonely. They were getting into problems, you know, drinking too much because it's also a coping mechanism of being alone.
Um, even if they had to girlfriends who were Germany, you know, German girlfriends when it came to Christmas time or Easter time or when they were never taken home to the family. So they were kind of left. So it started off by actually organizing parties where, you know, they could be themselves and this to reduce the drinking because you were in a safe space, you could enjoy yourself.
So that's how it started. So he started that and then I got involved. And then we started to run seminars for our African students, looking at development issues, because many African students who are sent abroad, um, will go back home and occupy leading positions in the government or in the, you know, mainly in the government rather than in business.
And so what we wanted to do was to get at the mindset of these African students to make them understand. how the terms of trade were not in favor of African countries and that they were falling into a debt trap. So it's not just, um, corruption of the leadership, but it's just the whole way of terms of trade and ways of doing things that If you just learn a Western centric way, you're not looking about how you can develop your country in your image and for the benefit of your people.
So,
So you were running this seminars. You were running this seminars, sorry, in Germany
Yes.
and you, you weren't a student at that time.
Right. Okay. But you
No, but my, my, my late husband was a student. He was a PhD student. So we, we set up this, so we would run these seminars once a month. We do the, and then have parties afterwards, but we really were engaging. So we had people from Cameroon, from Nigeria, from Eritrea, from, all different parts of, of, of Africa.
Um, and it was, it was really interesting over the years, um, to get, and that's how I had a much more deeper understanding of how things were happening on the continent from the perspective, yeah, through, from what the students were sharing, how they would explain things. I had people from Uganda, from, from Chad, from, and that's how I still know people still.
Okay.
Yeah.
Actually I didn't know that about, you didn't mention that when we had our conversation that you were running seminars at the university, at a university in Germany. Do you know what, what university was this?
the, uh, University of Karlsruhe. It was a technical school for engineering. So we would, you know, rent rooms. Because as a student, you can do these things. You can organize parties, you can do that. So. We would do development seminars to really sort of to get students to really understand the importance of their role that they needed a, as I say in German, an Ausländersehzung, you know, to really critically evaluate what they're learning and what difference they could make
and be critical of the whole economic development
I love that. That's actually pretty cool because that's kind of what I've wanted to do. You know, I've wanted to, I mean, that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast. I'm trying to, um, allow people, create, um, provide information in a way that can allow people to think critically and then see how they can make changes, um, to either themselves internally or to their society or community in some sort of positive way.
And I think it was, It was actually you that told me that that's the Sankofa way of doing things. Um, looking at history and seeing what we could learn from that to make things better.
In the future.
yeah. Sorry, what did you say? Mm-Hmm?
In the future. So sanako and fa. So the, the, the, the, the symbol is a bird with its beak going back to its tail. So it means you go back and you take something important. But the point is, is that you do that for the future. So it's a bit like when you look back into history to know more who you are, where you come from, so you can understand your place in.
the global world, rather than whatever narrative has been pushed on you by someone else because it suited their paradigm. You see, we need to be able to tell our own stories, uh, which says, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly, so we can understand where we are.
Yeah. Amazing. And, and, and Sankofa is, what language is that?
Akan
Akan
from ghana
from Ghana. Yes. Yes. I figured as much
can't. The Ashanti people
Establishing the Sankofa School
And you started a Sankofa school in Germany
was that separate from the seminar thing you were doing
Yes, yes,
how did you have
time to do all of did you say you were pregnant
Oh don't even ask. Um, maybe it was for my own children, because I was having, you know, I, perhaps when I first started, I must have had about two or three by that time. Um, and,
you live in germany for in
14 years.
wow, okay
continue
so, uh, you know, and also it was other things. I'd given a talk, but I remember, it was a turning point why I started it.
I, I used to work for Siemens, the international,
Siemens
Siemens is a international, uh, conglomerate that designs conductors, cars, it's a big, big, um, German
Is it is it simmons, but it's pronounced siemens
Siemens, it's German, Siemens, yeah, so
Oh, but is it the S E S I E E M that company?
Okay. Okay. So I know Simmons. Yeah, I just called him. I just called him Simmons.
Yeah, so it's in Germany. So I had, um, done, um, I was teaching intercultural and management communication.
I designed courses there to teach, um, uh, project managers in Siemens who were going abroad in China or in, uh, the Middle East. And they were doing their work, but they needed to, they needed to talk in English because people weren't. Speaking to them in German. So I used to do that kind of training. That was my sort of day job.
That was earning money. And, um, I remember I brought in the whole thing about racism. I decided, you know, this is, we should bring this in
and I made such an impression on one of the, the, the, the, the, the, the departmental managers. He asked if I would go and do something at the school of his wife. I said, Oh, of course I will.
Yeah. Well, so I did, I went and I gave a talk. To these children. And I remember when I finished, I went into the staff room and the teacher started to tell me about some of the horrific things that were happening. And they were saying that one time they had two African children who came to the school.
They were, you know, they were in Germany. They were supposed to be at the school during a school fete and the children stoned them.
What during the school's Fate?.
Yeah, so they were, they were part of the school. They were a pupil at the school and they came to the fete and children were stoning them and telling them to get out. They don't belong, you niggers.
Wow
And when I heard that, I suddenly thought, you know what,
How old were these kids?
small children, I mean, I'm talking about, you know, 11, 12, something like that.
Um, yeah. So I said, okay. I decided there and then I was going to do something because I knew if this happened to my own children, I would go mad. Yeah, the police, as I say, the Jamaicans say the police would have to come and take me away. Yeah, because I would go spare. So what I did was I started to ring all the African women that I knew, you know, through all the other things.
I said, so how was it for your children in school? And they said, I said, you're telling me lies. I said, this is happening. That is happening. And then they're quiet. I said, we're starting a school. We're starting a school next Saturday. So as we did, so we created a safe space.
for African families to come with their children.
So I had from Eritrea and Cameroon and whatever, we used to buy black books so that the children could see themselves reflected. Um, I used to teach the children, we used to have parent seminars. Um, and you know, so this was a safe space and I did that for about nine years.
I see. Wow Samara are you there by the way samara? I don't think she's there. She'd like to just restart and rejoin Um, let me message her Because I think she had a question um leave and come back That's fine, okay She will even come back and we'll try it again. Um, but yeah, okay, so you mentioned something Um, you said you said when the two african kids were attending a fate. What is a fate? What is
A school fete, you know, a school fair where you have everybody can come and it's on a Saturday or something like that and you're playing games. So it's an open fate where they're probably fundraising for the school.
Oh, I see. I see. So Okay, so this happened on a saturday.
Um
This happen during a school fate, whether it was on a Saturday, I'm not sure, this is more an open event.
Yeah
And in fact, I knew the father of these children.
I see
So it made, it made me even more, because I could, I saw the difference between, I mean, I remember visiting this guy at his home. He was married to a German. And in his home, he was like a king, you know, he was upright. He was, you know, this was his space.
He obviously, I think he was someone high in his society, if you ask me. Um, because I could see how when he actually was in the other, uh, African students, they would do running, go and fetch. So I thought, Oh, he must be somebody quite important. But when I saw him outside standing at a bus stop in Karlsruhe, where I lived, He was bent, he was small, like he was insignificant. And that's the impact of this sort of toxic culture where you know you're not belong and you don't fit.
Yeah.
It physically impacts you. So, uh, I didn't want that to happen to my children.
wow, that's quite powerful. Um, and when you did this, it was every Saturday you did this school and did you start to see changes in the, in the children,
It was, you know, my children, you know, Oh God, here we go. But I just knew it was important for them. Because it's just a space where they could be themselves. and be with other children. Um, and I know it was, it was very important for the, for the families, you know, we would bring our food, we'd share our food.
Um, you know, we would share, you know, people would sell cloth or whatever else, but it was a whole sort of cultural piece and it, and it, it was very important, a lot of people thought it was a really, really, in fact, that's the kind of thing I'm doing with the wealth camp now, when I started the boot camp, it's not something new. Um, but it really made a difference because there was nothing like that at all in all of southern Germany. I probably was the first to have done something like that.
Amazing. That's, that's, that's, that's impressive. That's very impressive. And then, okay. So, so, and then you were in Germany for another 14 years after this. Um, you kept the school running. Um, are there, was there anything else that you did around that time before you decided to
it was to
Organizing the Pan African Congress
help organize the Pan African Congress.
Ah, yes. Yes. I meant, I did mention this in the
introduction. Tell me about that How did that become a thing? So you
organized the
kept, you know, what happened was, uh, Tajudin Abdulrahim.
Dr. Tajudin Abdul Rahim, not German, Nigerian,
Rhodes Scholar, so from Oxford. Brilliant historian, I think, and he knew his stuff inside out. He came to Germany, and he was seeking out people who would come to the 7th Pan African Congress. So they came, they arrived at our doorstep, literally, so they were in my house, um, uh, you know, so speaking with my late husband and myself. And we decided we would go, so we funded ourselves. My husband did a, uh, a seminar at the Pan African Congress. And I, along with my, uh, friend, uh, Mahian Bali, Momodu Bali, so from Cameroon, Um, the two of us, we, we went, and this is when Tajudin was talking about organizing a, a pre Congress for women, and we said, yes, we'll organize that. So we did. So this is a, I think it's the first time in the history of any African National Congress that a women's only, well, it was women's led, we allowed men in, but they had to listen rather than speak.
Um, so I think it's the first time, uh, uh, uh, an African women's Congress has been held as part of the Pan African Congress.
And this happened in Uganda?
Yeah. And we organized that.
That was in 1994. I was four years old then. Living, living in Nigeria at that time. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know much. But Wow. Okay, cool. So you, yeah. So you did that and I'm, I'm assuming that was a success and that was enjoyable and like being at that Pan-African Congress and, you know, organizing this, the first pre, um, the first woman, only woman led pre congress meeting.
What, like at that moment in time, what I'm interested in is how did that affect your. Your sense of self, like, did you feel like, like you're actually making a change, like you're doing something important? Um, did it, did it make you feel more? What's the word I'm looking for? Connected to the motherland, to the continents, to Africa or?
I think the thing is, it's not. It's not particular things that are supposed to make you feel more substantial or worthwhile. You should invest yourself into everything you do. It doesn't matter whether it's building a school or sweeping the streets, you know, it's just that you're fully present and that you think what you're doing is important because I do believe, um, in the power of one.
Um, Yes, a group is very important, but you as an individual have to make a decision first and have the courage to follow through on your convictions. So I think what the Pan African Congress helped me to do was to really appreciate Uganda and Ugandan women and to have an understanding because everybody was there.
Somalian, you know, the, the, the, the, the North, not only Somalian, Sudan, the North and South Sudan, they were both sections there. Everybody was there.
Setting Up the Pan African Women's Liberation Organization
Everybody. It was, it was very historical to be in the room in the conference with, with, with everybody and listen to. all the different issues and how people were doing things.
It was a privilege in that sense. And so when I came back, when Marianne and I came back, we decided, off we go. We're setting up the Pan African Women's Liberation Organization in Germany. And we did. We ran up and down Germany, galvanizing women all over.
So it did inspire you. That event was
did. Yes, it did. It did. We did that.
And it's still going.
Yeah. What? The Pan African liberation
Women's organization. It's still going. Marianne is still running it.
Amazing in
Yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
Wow. Wow. You've done it.
Relocating to Gambia
And then so at which point did you decide to go to Gambia?
Oh, uh, I came back to London.
Because my mum wasn't well.
Okay.
So I came back to London. And I worked for a time, um, uh, in England, in London. And that's when I met Viv, Ahmun, and also met Lee Jasper. And I was doing work with them. Uh, and then my husband got a job with the UN, United Nations. So, and it turned into a family post so that we could actually relocate the family.
Mm.
So I relocated my three younger children.
To Gambia.
Yeah, to Gambia. So he was a, he was a chief technical advisor in the Gambia, uh, on, on, uh, water harvesting, water. He was on a water engineer. That's what he did his PhD in, in Germany, in, in, um, integrated watershed management. So how you can store water and use it for crops and things like that.
So. That's what he did. And so, yeah.
Challenges of Leading an International School
So, so, so that meant you ended up in Gambia, you, you somehow decided, okay, now that I'm in Gambia, let me go, let me do more teaching.
Cause
No, I, I didn't, no, I had, I didn't, I didn't, um, I I didn't plan to, as such.
It seemed, I was actually asked to, to step in.
Um, yes, yeah, I, I, there was a job going, I applied, but they kept losing my application for some reason. But anyway, but in the end, I ended up as, um. I end up as the headteacher of their top international school in The Gambia,
the
And what was that experience like? Did you bring all the knowledge that you had gotten from the seminars or the teaching stuff you'd done in Germany?
It was the toughest thing that I've ever done, I think. Well, actually, apart from the GLC, it was one of the toughest things, because, you know, at the end of the day, uh, this is an international school, but most of the teaching staff were, um, West Africans, so Sierra Leonean, Nigeria, and Gambia. We had some international Uh, uh, expatriates, expatriates, yeah, from England, from Wales, from Scotland.
It was, it was an eye opener. It was a real eye opener. Um, uh, because it was a, very privileged school. It was a top international private school in the country. So it's equivalent of like an Eton
here.
hmm.
And even though I'd gone, I had a scholarship when I was a little girl. That's how I went to a private school when I was 11.
Uh, it wasn't part of, you know, this was something that was like a gift that I got. You know, the fact that I won this scholarship.
Um, so here I was running the thing where many privileged children went. Um, and there were clashes in, in, in culture in terms of what I saw. You know, how the elite are schooled, which I was very critical of.
Because, because, um, for me, the elite, wherever they are, whichever country, but particularly in Africa, my motto is, you are given more because you're supposed to give more. Not supposed. Supposed to. Just keep it for yourself and spend it and aggrandize yourself and you know, you get more to give more back.
Changing the Mindset of Privileged Students
So if you don't teach the children who are in these elite privileged places where their pocket money is more than the teacher's salary.
Yeah.
If you don't infuse in them, this sense of service leadership, they become spoiled. and privileged and entitled and ultimately not of use to the country's development because they've been schooled to think I'm supposed to be here, I'm supposed to just do this all for myself and I owe nothing to the fact that the rest of my people are poor, it's nothing to do with me, they're just my maids and my gardeners and my drivers and my whatever.
So For me, I think this is fundamentally not correct.
okay.
So I came with that mindset into this very privileged position. So I was having to fight with myself in terms of this is not how you should treat people. This is not how you treat people. So I had to do things to help to bring a different mindset with the privileged young people.
And that was tough.
I can imagine, I can imagine because that is, um, status and elitism is a thing that is, um, very, very big in Africa, at least in Nigeria. I know from my experience and, um, what kinds of things were you able to do to change that? Cause you know, I would be interested to know, I'm
Um,
I banned parties.
You banned parties in the school. Explain how that, how that, how that changes the mindset. Go on.
if if anybody could have killed me on the first day. My first, uh, what's, what's when you stand up in front of everybody? And I said,
right, yes, that's it. I said, we're going to ban parties in the school. If looks could have killed, I would have dropped dead on the spot.
Okay.
And I said, and what we're going to do is we're going to bring extracurricular activities. To develop the children. No, we'll do spelling bees. We'll do art. We'll do drama. We'll do sport We'll get all that going and I said once that's all going We'll bring back parties
But
What were they partying for in the first place? Like, what was the parties for?
it's it's just it's it's about privilege
It's just to show we got
It's
and we want to
exactly
it.
You know, so I
Were the teachers involved in these
I'm no I'm not, I'm, I'm not against partying.
If anybody will tell you, I love parties, yeah? I love to dance, yeah?
So, but I wanted it, I wanted something else in place before we just did parties. And so, once we got all those things in place, I said, I promised, I said, okay. So we set up a student council, I made sure everybody voted for people. And I said, right, now you've come, let's organise this together.
hmm.
there was no, uh, so everything was done more ethically
Yes
and properly. And I remember some of the students saying, Mrs. Lamour, no one's ever showed us this. I said, I know. And how do you think when you grow up and you take a position of power, people become corrupt? It doesn't happen overnight. It happens from when you're at school.
It happens
How old were these kids
Sixteen? Seventeen?
Okay, so they were like teenagers
Yeah. So if you teach the right way of doing things, or a correct way, I'm not saying there's only one way, but you know, they were in position, I said, look, I've got to account for the money like this, so you have to account for the money. So you don't take ten tickets, sell five, put five in your pocket and give me five.
I said, no, I expect money for ten. So it's that kind of rigour That means there's less things for wriggle room. And, you know, I think it was just, it was just a way. And I think, I mean, obviously some people were most upset cause you know, their lucrative way of making money went out the window, but for others, it was a way of how you can do things more responsibly.
how long did you do this how long did you lead
this school
uh, I was chair of the education committee for a year and then I actually ran the school for two years. And another thing that I did was I took the young people next door. Because we had a school, WALL, which had a next door state school, where there were two thousand children in there and something like three toilets. Exactly, exactly. You know, we're right next door to a school that didn't have, you know, 80 percent of what our school had. And I said to the children, I said, have you ever been to the school next door? No. I said, we're going. Follow
That's, that's dope. That's dope. I like that.
So I just took the six of us and let's go. Off we go. Let's meet everybody.
And you know, it just opened their eyes. We were in the same compound. But they just didn't know where they'd ever been. And we also, I arranged for the young people to go to a children's home,
Mm
in the area where, you know, and that's unusual, you know, that children are abandoned. Um, but it's becoming more, it's increasing, I think with economic situation on the continent.
And, um, yeah, and this changed their mindset as well.
That was cool. That was cool. Did you get them to say, did you get them to mingle and, um, like do swaps with, with the school next door? Was it like, uh,
I don't know what, because it's towards my end, but I thought they'd never even been, so I just marched and just told them to come behind me and we're going.
did you, did you, did you take the whole school with you
in one go?
took the sixth, I took the uh, because the rest were in class, but I just took sixth form, sixth form council or something like
the six farmers? Yeah.
Introducing African Literature and Cultural Awareness
Yeah, I took sixth
All right, okay
think, yeah, I think the main thing is, um, is really, the other thing that I did was I introduced African authors. to be examined at GCSE level.
So the we're the we're doing the gcse
level
They were doing international GCSEs.
I see,
So, yeah, so I made sure that, you know, that they had, um, African authors being examined. And we did, you know, and I made sure we did, um, Pan African plays.
love that go on Sumaira
no, I have so many questions I've been making
notes.
Go on
I think people think when you want to, uh, assist with mindset shifting or change that it has to be very grand. Or if I want to change systems, it has to be really big. And I think what you did there clearly was.
Things that were achievable, like in terms of just giving access and exposure to the students, because, you know, they're in their formative years. They don't know any different if that's the only world they've been exposed to. And. Yeah, giving them an additional perspective. So even if they didn't reflect then at some point in their lives, they could reflect, and I'm sure there's a lot of those students who give credit to you for, you know, their critical lens that they have today.
Um, yeah. And I, I sometimes think, yeah, you have to be a rebel in the system and just go for it. For there to be some kind of, uh, change and like you said, just next door, there was a state school and that how, how oblivious people can be, um, but then, yeah, just, just kind of putting it in front of their faces, um, and challenging them
and also responding to the children as well. I remember one time a girl walked in, she goes, because there'd been a fire.
Yeah,
thing had blown up and it had burnt, killed and burnt so many people. And she came, she goes, she had a dream.
God told her this, that and the other. You know, I want to collect this, that and I said, yes, absolutely. And so we just gather and then we went to see them
So, so she had a dream that she needed to help those who had been in this
fire
right That's
and, and, and you were just like, yeah, let's go do it
as a school.
That's right. Absolutely Yeah, that's what you can do it, you know, just when it feels right, you know, the children are showing empathy compassion and you learn things because you know, like We can't always be saviors. Many of the times, we're doing it for ourselves.
We're not doing it for the other person.
Yeah? But there was something inside of her that she wanted to do. I said, you know, and I told them, you know, we've got to listen. Let's phone the doctors and see what they need. What kind of foods they need that will help to build back skin. Because that is a killer because our skin is one of our main organs.
And if we lose so much of it, we'll die because of our immune system is compromised. So, you know, more eggs, more milk and things like that. And, you know, I had to counsel the children before they went in to see these people so disfigured and everything. But it was a way of pulling together and, you know, donating and showing community concern.
it was
like showing them proactively, this is what you can do how they mirror that in the, in the future and their positions of power as well. And I love that, um, you also introduced a literature, um, that was more connected, uh, to Africa, African literature, um, because it's taken us. The black lives matter movement to, I say, you can't see me, but in quotations, what we call decolonizing, uh, education, I feel like people have been doing that for quite some time, like trying to introduce.
Um, non Western, um, ways of learning and knowledge as well. So, just wanted to acknowledge that happening way before.
uh, yeah, it has. I mean, at the Pan African Congress, I was in the workshop from Ngugi wa Thiong'o. Now Ngugi wa Thiong'o is a famous author from Kenya who refuses to write in English
mm, mm,
He writes in Gikuyu.
mm, And therefore you have to translate it from Gikuyu because how can it be that you write something that the majority of your people cannot read
mm,
And that's to do with colonialization and of the imposition of the English
language. And of course, if most people are not literate in the language in which your constitution is written, that is denial of their human rights, because you can't enforce something you don't even know exists, because you can't read it.
definitely.
So, uh, you know, it's, it's really important. I understood that, and I was very moved by things like that. And there was a point when I just read only. African literature and at one point I could pick it up and know, oh, this is East, this is South, this is West, because I just got the feel. So I learned a lot.
I'm learning a lot from listening to you. Yeah, please go ahead, Hamid.
No problem.
This is a long, this is a long interview, we should be finishing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna be finishing soon, but you know, before we finish, um, because you know that that that's why I made it one hour 30 minutes, um, you know, so the aim is to finish by seven. Um,
Founding Aspire Education Group
but before we finish, I wanted to talk about what you did after Gambia.
Which is to come back to the UK, you founded Aspire Education Group and, you know, creating amazing initiatives like the future ed awards. So, yeah, I wanted you to tell us a little bit more about that. Well, like what's the dream for Aspire Education Group? What does it do? What does it achieve? I know it's helping the continent.
I know it's helping, um, you know, black people and just people of, of the global majority in general. So yeah, I just wanted you to share a little bit about that.
Um, well how our Aspire Education group actually started, um, started together, co-founded with Viv, Viv Amun. And this is a time when a lot of young people, there was a lot of the so called gangs work. You know, this is a time of, of, I'm sure it hasn't abated yet, but a lot of young, I mean, London was a murder capital for, for black young people,
What year
others. Uh, 2011.
Okay. Okay.
but for some time, you know, so called black on black crime. Um, and, uh, Viv was involved with, uh, many sort of youth workers and working with serious youth violence. It had just been after the riots, the uprisings or the riots, as they were called, until 11, where, you know, London burnt, St.
Paul's, Bristol, Bern, Manchester, everywhere. Um,
I remember those because I was alive then.
yeah, you're, you're young and cognizant. So, um, uh, I, so Aspire, we started off actually teaching young people who were trying to exit gangs. So, this is where I realized that, you know what? Young people who are involved in some form of criminal activity are usually very clever. Because, yeah, you have to be.
I mean, in that sense, in order to be doing something wrong and get away with it, you have to know what is right and what is wrong and find the way around it. So you're double, triple thinking all the time. Yeah, so you're very quick. Yes, it's
a stress.
but it's stress.
Yeah.
thought, okay, so this is how these young people are.
So if we're going to offer them something, we've got to offer them something that's meaningful. So at that time, The money that was given for, to, to work with such young people, you were supposed to give them, especially if they didn't have any qualifications, you were supposed to give them functional skills, you know, how to get into a cab or order stuff in a restaurant, functional things that will make you functional.
It's a bit like when you learn another language like French or German or something, you learn what you do when you go to a train station, what you do when you go to a restaurant. I said, that's rubbish. I said, you can't be teaching these, these young people. If you're going to give them something, you've got to give them something that is meaningful, that if they get it, it can help them to get a livelihood.
I said, we've got to teach them GCSEs. Everyone told me there's no money for that. I said, well, I don't care. I said, I don't care. They, this is what they need. This is not what money's. I said, we're going to teach them GCSEs. That's it. Finish. And so that's how we started Aspire Prep. We actually broke down.
the exams and taught these young men they were mainly young men. There was a few, there was one young woman who was a gang leader. I think it was one of the most intelligent I come across. Um, but that's, that's how I started Aspire prep bootcamp later on. So it was from the experience of teaching these young people and engaging them and giving them some kind of hope.
So we did, we, we were in the trenches. You know, we went where the young people were and, and tried to give them relevant education for, for me, Aspire was about giving young people at least a second chance because they deserved it. So that's how it started. But,
how did it become the global, the global, uh,
Well, now we, we, we have moved on to being workforce development, research training. We're based here in the UK. We have a subsidiary in Germany and we have business links, um, in East Africa. Um, I think that's to do with the global mindset of myself and Viv.
Okay.
know, really, uh, uh, Viv has always had a global African perspective and I You know, in that sense also, um, so it was really trying to, to make an impact on a wider scale.
So, um, you know, we did consultancies, we did, uh, projects with, with, with boroughs, uh, with, uh, children who are special educational needs, children who have been excluded from school, many looked after children who have some of the worst outcomes. I'm telling you, if the state as a parent doesn't, you know, in terms of the outcomes and the money that's going in, it's very poor return.
You know, considering that you're taking young people away from parents, sometimes I think if you just gave the money to the parents and gave them support, things might be better.
Yeah.
But, uh, yeah, so all of that, but, um, yeah, Aspire Prep Boot Camp was sort of the start, um, in terms of, there's always been an awarding gap of black students from children from school right through to university.
It's been persistent over decades. So, uh, what we basically were doing was saying, well, look, I will, because of my private school, because I, went to a private school as a school teacher as a student as well as a teacher and as a head teacher
Mm
I knew what was different and so I wanted to bring some of that to ordinary young people, particularly from the black community, who could benefit from that.
So I brought, so it's like a private school in your pocket basically, um, and brought that approach in terms of exam rigor, uh, in terms of, but at the same time, all the stuff that I've learned from living in Europe, living in Germany, living in Africa, living here, um, how you really engage our young people.
You know, so it, you know, it makes sense. Um, and that's been very successful. And so then that led on to, um, us investing in and starting up in Germany because we'd won several European projects. So we've been doing work with about 16 organizations, about 16, 18 different countries. Uh, we've developed curriculum, we've developed training.
around projects for us that made sense and were aligned with the things that we were doing. So like gender equality, I'm very hot on, you know, women's leadership. Um, so we did, you know, projects around that. We've done products around trauma, For children, we've done projects that promote family learning, intergenerational learning, that promotes language development and business development.
So we've done a series of projects through Europe with our European partners. And when Britain decided in their wisdom to come out of Europe, we realized, you know, we want to maintain business there. And because I have lived in Germany and can speak German, we made the step to launch in Germany and it was tough.
can imagine.
But we're there, we're there,
um, and we now have, um, projects with Uganda and we have
Yes. You're doing massive projects
with East Africa. You know,
projects that are
being, you're connecting, you're connecting the West, um, with, with Africa
But you see, it's full circle. So you see how I started?
It's all linked. For me, it's not separate. It's just a different iteration of, of, of what we're trying to do. Um, and, and for Future Ed, um, this was the, you know, the brainchild of Viv. But it really is to, to, because he has an American experience. And in America, they celebrate far more.
Here in Britain, we complain.
We're very humble as well with it.
We complain and we keep things small. So with, with, um, with the Future Ed, this is about celebrating the change we want to see. So about black excellence, about equity,
and yeah, in education, and we realize we need to have our allies. Yeah, we've got. over half a million children of African and Caribbean descent in school out of the nine million children in the UK. Uh, we do not have enough black head teachers. We do not have enough counseling to, you know, help with the whole mental health challenges that all children have faced following COVID. Um, so there's lots of things which are helping to break down trust in with the state education, whether it's university students, everything has changed, everything has shifted.
So we want to find a way of building back that trust and, and making things different and better. And you do that by backing people who are doing good things, people who are trying to make things better. You know, bringing them up, celebrating them, and also creating an ecosystem for policy and culture change, which is what Future Ed is about.
Amazing. Yes.
And we do it with a team.
It's not just me, it's a team, it's a whole team of us, including
and I'm happy to be part of that team. I'm happy to be, I'm very happy to be part of that team because, uh, you know, celebrating black excellence in education is a big deal and, um, I haven't seen it being done before. Um, you know, not just the teachers, but the assistant teachers and the schools and every,
And the publishers, and the community organisations, all the people.
Yeah, this is good. It's a, it's a, it's a good way to encourage, um, the educational industry to, to do more, um, that will benefit our community. So, you know, I really, I really love that. Um, Sumaira, did you have any questions?
Um, question, reflection, kind of, um, it's been like a pleasure listening and learning about your journey and everything that you've done. And, um, I was just thinking you did all of this as Hameed, you know, uh, introduced at the beginning with five children surviving cancer twice. And, you know, were there ever moments, like I'm thinking of people who burn out or You know, the kind of passion, um, isn't as fueled, but it sounds like you were on the go for a very long time and you continue to be on the go.
And I don't know if you have any words of wisdom of people who also want to do the same or leave some kind of legacy. Is there anything that you would share in order to motivate or get those people started or get people to continue with what they're doing and not to give up?
Self care
Mm hmm,
is important
hmm, mm
is, crucial. Um, you have to take time for self and take time for some deeper reflection, whether it's your faith or spiritual things, because there are a lot of things that happen, like, especially like what's happening
mm hmm,
Yeah. On the streets. I've been conscious, uh, for some time now that things are becoming more uncertain, people are becoming more scared.
And at those times, this is when you have to center yourself. So anything that grounds you, that keeps you focused on
the good things
um,
um,
within you and others and the other rest of humanity, you have to water that and nourish that. Otherwise you become cynical. I never wanted to become cynical. Uh, I never wanted to, you know, I mean, yes, there's been times when I've wanted to give up when I've felt so tired.
Um, but, uh, we're bigger than all of this. It's just, it seems to me, you know, what happens to one of us, if it affects someone else, you know, we're all connected. So if someone is doing something over there, it's impacting here, you know, we're not, we're not alone. We're all connected. Whatever we do, we're not alone.
Always reach out and find someone to help, yeah, and learn to say no. Learn to say no, because especially when you're, you're an overdoer, you're a workaholic, let's put it, let's own it, yeah, when you're a workaholic and you're trying to find substance, I think, through what you do, ultimately you, the essence of who you are, is far more important than what you do, or what you have.
yeah.
So, you know, you try and find that essence of who you really are, and then just go with your, your heart and your passion, and you'll
Yeah, I really like that, the essence of who you are. It goes back to your core, but also emphasizes on The interrelating of beings and community and how a collectivist effort, you know, um, builds change or causes a ripple effect. And that's what we're trying to do by highlighting your work and, you know, with Hameed starting this podcast and getting people to think about how they can be part of this collectivist effort.
yeah, definitely.
Practical Advice for Creating Change
And I have a question as well, because that was a psychological, psychological question. I have a question around the practical things people can do on the ground that, um, from your perspective that can lead to more change. You know, you did a lot of practical stuff on the ground. We didn't even cover, cover half of it.
Like the thing you did in Germany with the, um, when you led the protest, um, with the lady that, the Senegalese lady that was shot and killed by the police and, and you really fought for that, you know, You did a lot of practical stuff. So any recommendations for, you know, people who are listening to this podcast as to what they can do to move the needle for our community, to move the needle for Africa, to just make some sort of positive change on the ground and where they are.
have to move the needle for yourself first.
Okay. What'd you
mean by that?,
there's a, there's a saying in Haiti, a Haitian saying, an empty bag cannot stand.
What I find that some people, they do things outside because they're empty inside.
Hmm.
They use it as an excuse. They're doing for others in order to fill what's inside.
Hmm.
The way out is in
This is from Thich Nhat Hanh, you know, Buddhist. I won't claim it from me. I'm quoting him. It is, everything starts with you. very It's you. Many times we try to run away from ourselves and do all kinds of things to deflect because we're not comfortable about sitting with ourselves when things are not right inside. We have to have that courage. If you want to ask people to stand up for things and to have courage, where's your courage? You know, many times I have asked people to come on marches and things like that and I know it's scary. And I'll be there, Even with my child and I look behind and no one else is there, and you can't blame the other people.
You have to be prepared to stand for yourself because when they come to take you, they come and take you one by one Yeah. So you have to be brave enough to, to, to, to do that. But what I would say to to, to people. Everybody has a, has something that they're bringing to this world. Everybody, everybody has a unique gift.
Everybody. So it's really, it's, it's getting in touch with that and allowing space where you explore your ideas. Not what everybody else tells you what you should do, your mum, your dad, your partner, whatever. You really go with it. Because when I look at my life, I see it's all, it's what I'm doing now. It's all connected to what I started off with.
hmm.
So that means there's a, there's a red thread, there's a line. And when we become fragmented is because we haven't kept to that, that inner line and done the things that bring us back to ourself. Yeah. So if it really is important to you, you will do it.
Wonderful. I mean, yes, I love that. You also mentioned last time I asked you this question before this conversation, which is similar to what you just said now, which is basically to find Where you have influence. 'cause everybody has an area where they have influence. Right? Find where you have influence and start from there.
And like, try to start something from there and try to grow it from there. And, um, I think, and then, and then, and then you linked it to entrepreneurship and how you know
Yeah. 'cause most people, most people, particularly black people, start businesses because they can't take, they can't take the crap in work.
yeah,
just saying it very straightforward. Yeah. The toxic culture and all that stuff. So, all the, the, the barriers to their progression or the discrimination getting the job.
So they do it not necessarily because they've got a brilliant product or a service. So I think part of this, you know, retaining your sense of self and sanity is there something in your life, which you feel you are perfectly at home
Mm
that
is. And you guard that preciously. So when everything gone or taken away, you know, you have no house, you have no husband, you have no, I've been there.
Yeah. All those things,
mm.
no health. So what is it? Who are you then? Who are you? You got to have that sense. And that is the thing that keeps you going ultimately.
Awesome.
Final Reflections and Words of Wisdom
Oh, thank you very much Patricia Lamour Thank you for this one hour conversation.
one hour, this was a flipping two hours, mate.
No, it was it was what?
Self care is
important. That's something
we've learned today.
you. Samara, have I been speaking sense?
100%. I am so inspired. I have lots of quotes that I can read to not only motivate myself, but discuss
Oh, thank you. Can you please keep them and send them back to myself,
yeah?
no, for sure. I will do, but
Yeah, keep those quotes because we're gonna talk
about it in the washup
Okay.
know, thinking, yeah, it's very thought provoking. Thank you so much. I hope you have a really lovely evening. You get to rest, eat and rest.
Thank you very much.