Episode 2: Empowering Africa through Literature with Awe Ogun

In this episode of the Ronu Spirit podcast, host Hameed interviews Awe Ogun, a Nigerian lawyer, prolific writer, playwright, poet, and storyteller. They discuss the challenges faced by African writers in getting their stories published, the importance of storytelling in empowering African nations, and the impact of colonial legacies on African literature. Awe shares her personal journey from law to writing, her struggle to get published, and her belief in the potential of African writers to tell their own stories and gain global recognition without relying on Western publishers. Tune in to hear Awe's inspiring story and her vision for African literature.

Awe Ogun’s books: 
The Dead do Talk
https://rhbooks.com.ng/product/the-dead-do-talk/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B098BQPG5D/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+dead+do+talk&qid=1625131723&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

Secrets of the book
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B098CFYWDL/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Secrets+of+the+book+Awe+Ogon&qid=1625132142&s=digital-text&sr=1-1
https://rhbooks.com.ng/product/secrets-of-the-book/

Host Links
Dr Sumaira Farha's Instagram: @thetriculturalpsychologist
@ronuspirit on all Social Media

Transcript

Voxelize_Complete_EP3

Awe: [00:00:00] We put above ourselves, those who have the whitest skin color, because even the black Americans who are in the US look down on the Africans

why do you go killing the man who has the fellow color of your skin because he looks like you?

I never seem to understand it.

Hameed: if there was a way for us to get the storytellers within Africa to share their stories with other Africans and make their stories go global from Africa without having to go through the West, you think that would be a great start

Awe: that would be not just a great but an amazing, amazing start and foundation. That would be an amazing foundation to, to begin for a whole lot because there is a whole lot that African writers can do for themselves without having to wait for the West

Introduction to the Ronu Spirit Podcast

Hameed: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Ronu Spirit podcast, where you follow my learning journey as I explore potential ways to empower African nations, [00:01:00] address the legacies of colonization and enhance the global respects for black and African people worldwide. My name is Hameed. My guest today is Awe Ogun, and as usual, we have Dr.

Sumayra Farha in the background serving as my clarity coach. Say hello, Dr. Farha.

Sumira: Hello. Hello, everyone. 

Meet Awe Ogun: Nigerian Lawyer and Storyteller

Hameed: Awe Ogun is a qualified Nigerian lawyer and a prolific writer, playwright, poet, and storyteller. Her published works include Secrets of the Book, The Dead Do Talk, Conversations with God, Misnomer, which is a collection of poems, and Aida.

Did I pronounce that right? Is it Aida?

Awe: Yeah, you pronounce it very well, Aida.

Hameed: Yeah, Aida, which is a theater play, which she also produced. She's passionate about getting African writers recognized on a global scale and using storytelling to uphold African traditions and cultures whilst passing it on to the next generation. Welcome. It's a pleasure to finally get this thing going.

Awe: Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

Hameed: No problem. Great to have you. I have so many [00:02:00] things to discuss. Hopefully we have enough time to get through it today. Let's start at the very beginning. 

Awe's Journey: From Law to Writing

Hameed: what led you into what you're doing today into being a writer.

And I think we discussed it a bit over the phone when we had our first conversation, which was that you studied law at university. let's go back before you started law. What is it that your dad did, how you became, why you chose law and so on.

So yeah, I'd love to hear a bit more about that. 

Awe: why I chose law? Actually, I wouldn't say I chose law. I always wanted to be a journalist. I always wanted to study mass communication, in university. Growing up as a child, I was in tune to stories already. I loved stories. I would always read newspapers. my dad had this thing. Every day he comes back from work, he has a punch or a vanguard.

And I would always take them and read them, even when I was in nursery primary school, through secondary school and also I knew I wanted to do mass communication, be a journalist, be a writer. I used to find it very exciting, so that's really what I wanted. But then I was a daddy's girl.

I was always my dad and, you know, as a child you want to please your dad. And I know my dad always wanted a lawyer. He would always tell me, I didn't ask [00:03:00] you to study law. I said I wanted a lawyer. And you were like, daddy, okay, I'll be your lawyer. And I'm like, okay, there's something called implied question

Hameed: Hehehehehehe.

Awe: how I got into law, literally because my dad wanted a lawyer and I got the course, I got the admission into university, but if I were allowed, I would have picked mass communication as the course I wanted to study.

Hameed: Aware is currently talking to us live from Ghana, the interconnection is a bit shaky. 

Awe: you chose law because your dad always wanted a lawyer,

that literally that's the reason why I started because I was very close to my dad and, 

 as a little child, you want to do something, whatever it takes to please your father 

But I mean, I was a child left to myself. I would have wanted to be a journalist.

Hameed: yes, you're right. That is what you ended up becoming. you said that the love for stories and journalism came from just reading newspapers, right? What was it about those stories and that you were reading in newspapers that made you think this is what I wanted to do?

Like I wanted to, I want to write my own stories. I want to do journalism. What was it about?

Awe: as individuals, we always have these innate passions, even when we are [00:04:00] little. We call them hobbies a lot of times, but these things are our passions, are really what we love to do, what we do effortlessly. as a child, I know I particularly was taken to storytelling, and I used to love writing.

I used to love writing a lot of poems as a kid. I tell books from way back in secondary school where I would write my poems, and all that. And growing up as a child in Nigeria, back in the day, we used to have Tales by Moonlight. It was a television program, every Sunday, you're glued to the TV because it's going to be Tales by Moonlight.

You have this woman who is telling little children stories, and then you have people animating it, acting it out. I used to enjoy that, and I would imagine that one day I'm that woman, seated and telling stories also. We also had Story Land, we had The New Masquerade, it was a TV show. And these were things that really built up, I wasn't the only person who was watching this, I had siblings who were also watching it, but they didn't take an interest in it, so I could actually say it was just an innate passion, it [00:05:00] was just something that I was meant to do, that I saw as a hobby back in the day, as a little child, it's just something you love to do,

Hameed: hmm. Mm hmm.

Awe: I always wanted to, be that person on the news.

You're reading the news. Hello. Welcome to today is, Especially when I watch the NTA news, cereal stover and the rest are, you're like, okay, one day I'm going to be that person to that day I'm reading the news. I liked it.

Hameed: that is so interesting that as a young kid as a young child in Nigeria, you were interested in the news because I wasn't interested in the news. I wasn't, paying attention to news and thinking, Oh, I want to do, I always thought the news was boring, but you loved it. 

Awe: I never missed NTA news. Like a child. I never missed the news. I never missed it. Oh.

The Influence of Awe's Father

Hameed: and I suppose that came from the relationship with your dad, like you said, but you told me something about your dad earlier on when we had our previous conversation, which was that he was living in the West. He was living in USA or UK before he came back to Nigeria.

Awe: Yeah, he was in the U. S. he did his [00:06:00] university, in Italy. He studied medicine in Italy and then when he was done, he went to the U. S. for his house job and then from there he got a job. he was a pediatrician and he got all the degrees they get in medicine and he was working there in the hospital.

He had his green card and everything. He lived there, married there. I started having, my first two brothers were born there, but he was very passionate about home. He was very passionate about Africa. He was very passionate about my people. according to him, he wasn't satisfied, being this top pediatrician in the U.

S., making all the money, living the good Western life. And then his people are back home and there is no, medical, Services because he was the first medical doctor in my village, in my, in Ogoja local government. Yeah, he was he left all that. He left everything and came down to Ogoja which was a very small place.

a very small place for someone who has had all the, knowledge, the exposure had a good life for himself in the us. [00:07:00] And he gave that all up and came down to Ogoja to build a hospital. That was the first hospital, the general hospital, which is still in existence. It's a very big hospital now.

Hameed: And he became the first managing director of the hospital and, make sure that medical services were given and from there he was now transferred to Calabar, which is the state and the capital of Cross River state as, the director general of Ministry of Health. So his passion just brought him back because if you ask him, like, I literally kept asking why did you leave Why did you come back to Nigeria? I mean, like, my people needed me. I needed to come back for my people, to give back to the people who built me up, That's inspirational. that is amazing. That is an amazing story. and I suppose, having a father like that has that passion and that, sense of purpose and sense of drive that, he wants to give back. I suppose that influenced you, especially, when you started realizing your love for journalism and everything.

 would you say that influenced you in some way?

Awe: Greatly. It influenced me greatly. growing up as a child and watching your parentsWe pick things [00:08:00] from them that we don't, they don't say to us. I grew up seeing my father, being in this position of wealth, but yet not exercising that position of wealth.

I always tell people we grew up as a rich man's like rich man's child. Back in the day, for you to, for your dad to be a director general or the minister of health, we definitely grew up, okay, like we grew up in a government residential area, we had house helps and all that. But my father made sure that every holiday we were at the village, we went to the village.

Hameed: Mm.

Awe: single holiday, for more than 20 something years of my life, I spent every holiday in the village, along with my siblings, and we would go to the farm. Like we didn't need to, but he made us learn all these things because he needed us to understand that we were first and foremost from this place called the village, this Mbube community, before we became whoever we were, those things were built into us. Without him having to say, like, you have to be this person, you have to be humble, you have to be hardworking, you don't have to be dependent on people, you have to build [00:09:00] yourself and never forget your roots. These were the things that, inspired me a whole lot. My father is a very great influence in my life.

Hameed: Amazing. Yes. definitely. and I think you also mentioned that this was also what led you to be more Pan African in your approach to things in general. cause he had a very Pan African influence on you because I'm guessing that's what, do you think he developed that whilst he was in the States, that Pan African look on life?

Awe: no, I think it was already in him before he left because my dad grew up without a father. I think his father died when he was three years old. So he grew up with his uncle in the village and all that before he got sent by the Catholic missionaries to Italy to study medicine.

Oh, he got sent by the missionaries.

Yeah, he got sent by the Catholic Missionaries to Italy to study, so he was on scholarship all through.

Hameed: Oh, I see.

Awe: very brilliant chap, so he got the scholarship to go there, and he's called there. So he never forgot where he came from, and he wasn't the type to, he loved the life.

 he would always tell me stories of when he was in the village as a child. he would [00:10:00] always beg his uncle to go palm wine tapping. He'd follow his uncle to go and tap palm wine from the trees and all that. like, he loved that lifestyle And despite being in the West for so long, he never forgot, his roots.

Amazing. that's wonderful. Oh, wow. Now we might have to have your father on after this and interview him as well. So then you went on to study law because your dad was like, it would be nice to have a lawyer. 

Challenges in Nigerian Education

Hameed: So you started studying law and in, you studied law in Nigeria.

What was that like? What is

Awe: it is.

Hameed: I'm interested in knowing what the Nigerian education system is like. You know, when she gets to university, because I hear a lot of, negative things about it, with, teachers going on strike, people going on strike, and then people not being able to finish their degrees for years.

And like the degree that's supposed to take three years, usually taking five years because of strikes and so on. what was your experience in studying law in Nigeria?

Awe: My experience with studying in Nigeria, was fortunate of all my siblings to be the first person to go to a state university. And I think the major issue with [00:11:00] education in Nigeria is the government. It's not the institution of education itself, but it's the government. they do not take education as a priority at all in Nigeria.

The government don't take education, teachers, as a priority in Nigeria. all my elder siblings went to University of Calabar, which is a federal university.

Hameed: hmm.

Awe: on strike. They were always on strike as long as I could remember when I was in secondary school, my elder ones were always home for one strike or the other, my eldest brother, he's a doctor in the US and he spends, I mean, he read medicine in UNICAL and he was supposed to spend six years, but he ended up spending almost nine years in university

Hameed: Wow.

Awe: study a course of six years.

Because of strikes,

Hameed: what are causing this strikes? Is it just teachers not being paid?

Awe: almost all the strikes you've ever had in Nigeria. Literally 99 percent of the strikes in universities is because of either the payment is low or they are not being paid at all. most of the strikes were in the union, going on strike. [00:12:00] Because the government don't pay, the pay for teachers is very small.

Hameed: you're saying that the payment is low for teachers in Nigeria

Awe: Yeah, there's inadequate funding. Inadequate funding is a great issue in institute for lecturers, for teachers, both universities, especially tertiary level, the secondary level, the primary level. Teachers are very underpaid, they're undervalued, they're underpaid. So you have lack of skilled and trained teachers, you have inadequate learning infrastructures, you have lack of conducive environments, you have inadequate funding.

All these, affect. the level of education,

Hameed: that is interesting. I mean, I assumed as one of the main problems that a lot of African nations share is,the weakness of the institution due to corruption and so on. And, not being set up properly. I also wanted to ask you about the actual education itself that you received.

 did you feel like it was quality, high quality education? Did they focus on trying to help you understand or was it all just [00:13:00] memorizing? Because that's what I remembered when I went to primary in Nigeria, it was all about memorizing something and just focusing on memory.

It wasn't, the understanding of it wasn't as emphasized. I just want to see, if it's the same for you.

Awe: I got quality education because back in the day, I don't know about now, I can't really say for now. When I went to university, I got quality education. My lecturers were professors, they had masters, they had PhD and they were good. They were grounded. They were very grounded. when I, as a state university, you see, that's why I was trying to put the difference between I going to a state university and, those who went to a federal university. I realized that, because there was a time when my school, I think when we're discussing outside here, I talked about the time when my school went on strike. Because of Cultism and all. That was the one time that my state university went on strike all through my time in school because of cult and, focus and all.

So I was home for like two, three months and because I hit boredom, I decided, oh, let me go to lectures [00:14:00] with law students in University of Caliber. And just while away time they were before they call us back and I was in my first year in university before we went on strike. But I realized when I went to University of Calabar to join the law students there, what they were, what I was taught in my first year is what they were teaching them in their second year.

Hameed: I

Awe: I was attending lectures with 200 level students while I was still in 100 level in my own school. So the level of education in the federal system and the state system and then the private universities is very different. The states, you know, because it's the states, it's state controlled, they make sure they get the best literals they can get, way better than the federal universities.

 And then the private universities definitely, they'll get way better. Some of them even bring in lecturers, professors and all from outside the country to lecture their students. So the quality of education depends on the university you're going to. Is it a federal university or is it a state university or a private university?

I got better education than the [00:15:00] federal, yeah, because I went to a state university.

Hameed: I see. Oh, see, I wasn't aware of that. You see, you learn something new every day, private federal states. interesting. So you went to university, you studied law, you aced it, came out excited. You told me you were excited coming out because you were like, I want to be a criminal lawyer. Then what happened?

Awe's Legal Career and Frustrations

Hameed: 

 I went to the Nigerian law school, that's actually the five years university, you go for the one year Nigerian law school to be called to the Nigerian bar. So during that period, we have court attachment and chambers attachment. So during my chambers attachment, I was with a law firm in Calabar.

Awe: I remember one of the days we had a matter in court and my principal was in the office. And he says to me, go to court and take a date for me, tell them I traveled. And I'm like, but you're seated here. And he's like, yeah, I don't feel like going to court. And I was pissed because I was going to lie.

Yeah, it was a criminal matter.

Hameed: yeah. He didn't feel like, so he said I should go take a date. I looked at him like, I can't do this. I went to the court and the judge was like, call the matter, I'm like, my lord, I'm sorry my principal traveled and I'm feeling so vexed inside 

Awe: criminal matters, any matter at all in [00:16:00] Nigeria, it drags for so long. Matters that you could finish in within months or a year, sometimes you have matters running for 10 years, 5 years. And the people are frustrated. The clients are frustrated. Sometimes it's landlord and tenancy matter, and it's running for so long.

And both parties are frustrated. That's why you could get people in prisons. Awaiting trial. Some of them, their matters have not even been brought to court. And the trials are spanning so many years. And these people are in prison, rotting away. So the judicial system just messed up my mentality. And I was like, I can't do litigation, man.

This is going to frustrate me. I can't do litigation. And it's not in this country. So I just switched to company law and expertise myself in legal drafting. That's what helped me better.

Hameed: and then you were doing company law for a while, and then at some point you decided, I'm going to give all of this up and move to Ghana and become a writer. Okay.

Transition to Writing and Fashion

Hameed: So when I was in law school, I was still writing. Like I said, I started writing as a [00:17:00] child. I remember when I was in secondary school, I wrote for, I wrote an article once to Vanguard, which was published.Wow. I didn't know

Awe: I kept the writing thing, but I just didn't see it like a career for me, it was a hobby.

It was something I did. It's something I love doing. Something that was like my escape route. But in law school, when I was in law school, I wrote my first book. Which I have never published. I wrote that book and it was beautiful, but I just threw it aside. it was just for me, it was just, you love writing.

 when you feel so sad and so burdened, you just throw it all out into pen and paper, and all of that, and then I kept writing like that. I was in Abuja for five years working as a lawyer and, it was very frustrating. It was very frustrating. Not because I wasn't making the money. I was making the money and I was having declines, but I just wasn't, Finding fulfillment in it.

It wasn't fulfilling for me. It was quite frustrating. Every day I'll go to, companies, I like, CAC, that's Corporate Success Commission, and I'll come back, I'll do the company jobs, these clients are calling you, they're paying you, I had clients paying me in dollars, but I wasn't [00:18:00] happy with what I was doing, so I tried to search deeper inside me and I was like, so what do I do, to make me happy, to give me this joy, this everyday joy, while I still do the law thing by this side and.

I started sketching. I went into fashion.I love sketching. So I would sketch designs and then I said, okay, cool. I'm good with this stuff. Why don't I go into fashion? it's a way of bringing out the creative side of me. So I went into fashion and I was in fashion for a few years and I did well with the fashion.

I did some international fashion shows, I was one of the designers who showcased at the African Fashion Week Nigeria, the first one they had in Nigeria. I also showcased in Nigerian Fashion Week, I got invited to the London Fashion Week, and all that. 

Hameed: There's always a creative and then you find yourself doing this very prim and proper profession called law. It's kind of choking, so I just needed somewhere to bring out that creative side of me and fashion was there, but still I wasn't, I wasn't finding fulfillment in it.

Awe: How did we transition into writer [00:19:00] from there? Yeah,I went into the fashion, to bring out my creative side, because the law was there. Choking, so fashion daily for me, but still I kind of felt very empty.

Hameed: hmm. Mm

Awe: I still wasn't finding performance in both the fashion and the Law, I was getting deep into depression. 

Moving to Ghana: A New Beginning

Awe: And so I finally left Nigeria Myself.

So then,

Hameed: Okay. And why did you choose Ghana?

Awe: you get asked this question like every single day in Ghana, everybody is gonna like, so why Ghana? And I'm like, why not Ghana? I mean, I could have gone to Rwanda and they'll ask me why Rwanda? Like it could be anywhere.

Hameed: is it just proximity? It was close by?

Awe: No, it wasn't proximity. I mean, I had the choice of going a lot of countries and I have siblings in the U. S. I could have decided that,I just wanted to be in an African country. If I have to leave Nigeria, let it be another African country.

That's interesting. Why? where [00:20:00] do you think that comes from? You wanted to be in an African country and not wanting to leave?

 first of all, I'm African. I mean, why would I want to be elsewhere? And secondly, because this is where I relate to, my roots. I don't have to walk on the streets and feel different. I don't have to go somewhere and feel like I'm not welcome. I'm in Ghana, but it doesn't feel like I'm not in Ghanian.

If I'm walking on the streets, unless they speak with me, and then they hear my accent, and they're like, Oh, you're not Ghanian. And I'm like, Oh, yeah.

Hameed: Mm Hmm.

Awe: I mean, it's like home.

Hameed: I see.

Awe: I'm in any African country except South Africa, I'll feel like I'm home.

Why except South Africa? Because they're xenophobic.

Hameed: Yeah, the South Africans don't like Nigerians. I've heard that, is that true? Like they don't like when we come through.

Awe: Yeah. And I never seem to get it. It's sad.

Hameed: Have you been to South Africa?

Awe: Never.

Hameed: I see. based on what you've seen in the media and the way they treat Nigerians, are [00:21:00] you more apprehensive of going to South Africa to visit?

Awe: Yeah, I mean, growing up, it was one of the African countries I used to want to be with because, I don't want to call myself an activist, but I am very pan African when it has to do with,

Hameed: Liberation talks about, getting African to a standard, getting Africa out of the Western Greece and all, I'm all in for it.

Awe: That's why all my novels are African centered. I used to admire Mandela a lot, Mandela, I want to go to the country where Mandela came from. But growing up, seeing how they are, not just to Nigerians, but to other African countries. know, why do you go killing the man who has the fellow color of your skin because he looks like you?

I never seem to understand it. I have a friend who is South African. I met him in Nigeria in 2011 and he's different. So I believe that there are those who are different. There are South Africans who are not xenophobic because he's very nice. He's very kind. we talk every now and then and you can see that [00:22:00] he's a different person from, the general xenophobic thing and all that.

So I believe that there are those who are not. But it feels like the majority of them are. And I can never come to understand it.

Hameed: Do you think that's because of what we see on social media and all the media that we're getting, we are being fed this information? Do you think it's, it looks worse than it is? if you were to visit South Africa, could it be that, maybe that you don't experience any xenophobia and there is no xenophobia, but it's just because the few that there is, is heightened due to the use of social media.

Awe: Well, I can't say it due to social media. I have a lot of Nigerian friends who live in South Africa, but there is this particular one, and the other day we were talking about this xenophobic thing, he lives in South Africa, he works there for years now, and he said,

Hameed: that he came into the country, that's South Africa from the UK. He had a job in UK. So he returned back 

Awe: He gave his passport over to, an airport official for stamping. And the lady sees that he's Nigerian and she goes, Oh, so you're one of those people that come to take our jobs? And he replies to [00:23:00] her, well, if you were qualified enough, I wouldn't be taking your job,

Hameed: I see.

Awe: yeah, because literally, so you're not trying to upgrade yourself to the standard of what you are killing people for being, you know, do it.

it's insane to think of, because I believe they are good South Africans.

Hameed: Mhm.

Awe: But it's like saying, I don't know why, I can't comprehend why they do it. I can't comprehend xenophobia in any form.

Hameed: I see.

Awe: And it's not just to Nigerians, it's to every other African country. So why? Why do you do that?

Sumira: Yeah, I was going to add to that as somebody who's visited South Africa that I would visit there, but I can't see myself living there long term, because it is such a segregated community. So if we're thinking about xenophobia, but we're also thinking about, Black South Africans versus white South Africans, how many years on the racism continues, the apartheid continues and it is very evident when you go to visit so if that's [00:24:00] happening to fellow black South Africans, then anybody foreign is also going to, experience that to some degree.

 I totally get where you're coming from.

Hameed: Oh, so that's interesting,

Awe: you see, the funny thing is, despite this segregation they have, a black South African would rather a white South African than another black African.

Sumira: yeah, that's interesting.

Hameed: I've seen two scandals, currently about South Africa in social media. The first is the,the model situation where they wouldn't let

Awe: Yeah, Chidamma.

Hameed: well, she's South African or what is the story there? 

Awe: Chidamma Adesina, her mother is South African, her mother is Zulu, and then her father is Nigerian. And she was born in South Africa, and she's lived there all her life.

Hameed: hmm.

Awe: But simply because she has a Nigerian roots, They would not allow her to compete in the pageantry in South Africa because she's, her father is Nigerian.

Is that bad?

Hameed: Wow. and then there was a thing that said there was a white South African that won Ms South African.

Awe: Well, yeah. they kept having this, voting, votes to, to send Chindinma out of the pageantry [00:25:00] it got so bad that the girl had to, she left the whole competition, and then a white South African won it and they were rejoicing

Hameed: So they would rather a white South African win than,

Awe: They were rather a white South African than, than

who is also South African. who was also South African. Simply because her father is Nigerian.

Hameed: Interesting. Wow. that is, I don't, that is

Awe: But you see that, but they will not have a problem. They don't have a problem with Trevor Noah, whose father is Greek and his mother is South African. Because he, he has a white father.

Hameed: I see. Okay. Interesting. This is very interesting.now you got me thinking, I'm thinking I would want to get a South African on this podcast and ask him/her about this, because this wasn't, this is crazy. Interesting. And then the second thing, sorry, go

on, go on. 

Sumaira 

Sumira: that, as I highlighted, there's a lot of double standards when it comes to, South Africa, I think one of the maybe highlights or the inspiration is,The current people challenging what's happening in Palestine, 

you know, I mean, 

Hameed: [00:26:00] is challenging. 

Sumira: about South Africa being a previous apartheid state, but unfortunately, it is still very problematic.

Hameed: problems. Yeah. Yeah. most definitely. I mean, I've been to South Africa to

myself. I've been there, but I was only there for two days, two or three days. I was in Cape town and my experience was the same as yours, Samara, with regards to the segregation. it felt very uncomfortable for me because all the black people that I saw were doing the Menial service jobs and like anytime I saw a black person in that area, they were there to do, they were there to like, clean the garden or do housework and stuff like that.

And it was just white people living in that area. So he just felt very weird. yeah. So 

Sumira: have never come across a black South African or a black person in their entire life, but they're living in the continent of Africa and that always blows my mind. Like I was there, I was speaking to a few people who live there. There's like segregated communities, gated communities, and there are like, I don't know how many, but there are white people who have lived there all their [00:27:00] lives and never interacted with a non white person, let's say, so imagine.

Awe: Incredible. Wow. I was going to say one more thing before I move on from the South African subject. The second thing I was going to say was the, the thing that's been happening recently on social media with everyone ordering Ubers or boats. Have you seen that? Yeah.

Hameed: you explain that to me?

What's going

Awe: I

Hameed: Why are people ordering Ubers in different countries?

Awe: South African started it.

Hameed: Before you start, let me just explain for the listeners what this is my understanding. My understanding is that I'm South Africans. Started ordering Ubers or is it boats? I'm not sure either one in Nigeria saying that they were in Nigeria, but then when the Uber got close, they would cancel saying that, Oh, they're in South Africa or they wouldn't cancel it.

Awe: They'll just say they're in South Africa. So the Uber driver would have to cancel. And then I just started doing the same. ordering Ubers in South Africa and then cancelling when the Uber driver got close. It was the whole thing is so petty, but yes, explain our, I would love to hear your thoughts on this [00:28:00] I mean, Nigerians rubbed it. you can't win a war with a Nigerian, like an online war for that matter. what happened was one South African that started it. He ordered, a boat. And, probably he changed his VPN or something, I don't know, that he was in Nigeria and the driver went to the venue and kept saying I'm here and he kept, tossing the driver up, like, down and all that.

And then he made the mistake of screenshotting it and posting it on Facebook. Social media

Hameed: Okay.

Awe: and encouraging other South Africans to go ahead and it even became a trend or they both in Nigeria, you know, challenge. It became a challenge for them. Nigerians were like, okay, you guys want to do this one game.Nigerians are ordering bowls in mass. I mean, we are a large country

Hameed: Yeah.

Awe: and when Nigerians want to follow, especially South Africa, they would do anything to get at South Africa's head. Okay. So they started ordering, and Nigerians who order, they ordered so many boats to one location. So the place was cramped with a lot of boats, vehicles, [00:29:00] and people were stranded elsewhere.

They didn't, they couldn't even book. And when Nigerians realized that, oh, it's not just boats we can also order, they started ordering food.

Hameed: Oh, what?

equipment. Yeah, they started ordering things from stores, Wow.

Awe: they'll give an address. So you just be in your house and you get a knock on the door, you order food and you're like, no, I didn't.

And Nigeria took it two notches higher.

Hameed: Crazy. That is crazy. Okay. Let's move on from the South African side of it because We came and talk about you. 

Awe: you're right.

Hameed: you're in Ghana now you've moved here. You've decided to move to Ghana. You don't know anyone. Did you have friends in Ghana when you moved to Ghana?

Awe: No, I didn't know nobody. I hadn't been to the country before. I don't have family here, still

Hameed: never been to the country before?

Awe: Mm mm.

Hameed: where did you even stay when you arrived and how did you start writing? Did you just say, I'm going to go to Ghana. I'm going to become a writer. 

I decided, I just wanted to get away from the depressed way I was feeling in Nigeria. the pressure of going to the court, and all that. I needed to just run away from all that. I booked a flight. Mm Came over here. I didn't [00:30:00] tell anyone in my house that I was leaving Nigeria.

Awe: I just left and when I came here That's when messaged them called my dad. I'm no longer in Nigeria. I'm now in Ghana And I started life. I stayed in a church for a little bit, but it was very unconducive During the period I was looking for a house and I got a house So what I did was I made sure I had enough finances You Before I left Nigeria, so I got the house, but the unfortunate thing was when I moved in the person when I look at it here, unfortunately for me, Bwari had just put an embargo on withdrawing money outside the country, and I didn't know

Hameed: Oh,

Awe: when I got here with my ATM, I couldn't withdraw my money.

So I was broke.

Hameed: Oh wow. In Ghana broke with no money.

Awe: long time.

Hameed: Goodness gracious. 

Struggles of Finding Employment in Ghana

Hameed: So what did you do?

Awe: I was broke for a very long time. I don't want to get into that, that's a whole lot.

Hameed: Okay.

Awe: that's a podcast of one hour of its own.

Hameed: Okay, cool. 

Awe: challenging because I kept trying to get a job. [00:31:00] And because I was determined to start all over here, I went to a lot of places.

I went to radio stations. I went to makeup studios. I went to restaurants and bars. 

Facing Discrimination and Residency Challenges

Awe: I mean, I was a lawyer way back in Nigeria, but I didn't mind, start doing those jobs here to my feet on something, but everywhere I went to, even the radio station, they saw my CV, you're very qualified for the job, but we can't give you the job because you're Nigerian.

Hameed: I don't understand.

Awe: They have, a policy Ghanian fest. So they would rather employ a Ghanaian sometimes who is even under qualified than you who is a Nigerian.

Hameed: I see.

Awe: but yeah.

Okay. I wasn't aware of this. Okay. it was very tough for me, with all the qualifications I got. I couldn't get a job because, you're not Nigerian. I even went toan Indian company, I mean, that's neutral. So they should be able to employ me and all, they said, we are sorry. We can't employ you because they come to check every now and then and to make sure that our staff is Ghanaians.

So I couldn't get a job to and there is this thing [00:32:00] about residency. That's another thing I think is going to come under the African thing, talk and all that, but I'll just chip it in. Even as a West African country, I mean, we are West Africans and we are literally equal as, but as a Nigerian living here, I have to renew my permit every year. And it's the same amount. 

Hameed: have to pay the same amount every year to renew your residency.

Awe: your residency every year, as a Nigerian or any other ECOWAS country. And, it costs 500 And then you do the medicals, which is about 900 to 1, 000 CDs. You do the Ghana card, which you're supposed to renew every year again. It's the same information. So the Ghanaians don't renew theirs but as a foreigner you have to renew yours every year and that one costs about a hundred dollars so it's a whole lot of money and for you to get international jobs they want to know that you have the permit to stay here so it's it's really difficult but I'm Quite a determined person, and I have survived, and I have grown, and I have established.

Turning to Writing Amidst Frustration

Hameed: How [00:33:00] did you get into writing whilst you were in Ghana? 

Awe: I actually got to a point of frustration, going everywhere, you're applying everywhere, and you're getting a no. Not a reasonable no, a no because you're not Ghanaian, it got me frustrated and I'm a born again Christian, so I went into prayer. I was like, God, you need to tell me why.

Why can't I get these jobs? Like, what's happening? I was very frustrated, and then I prayed and that was like going through writing. That's who you are. I'm like writing. Writing is a hobby. Who does that? Like, who writes for money? Who makes money from writing? I mean, JK Rowling does, but the time it didn't seem feasible.

how am I supposed to start? Like, I had never seen writing to be something I would take, like, a career, So it took me a while, I was like, write, write, write. So I started, that was when I wrote Conversations with God. That was my first book and I wrote it.

I got in touch with people in Nigeria. 

Publishing Challenges in Africa

Awe: Now, another thing about publishing in Africa, Nigeria and Ghana particularly. We have more of printers than publishers, they'll tell you that publishing house where [00:34:00] you send your manuscript and they will give you a quotation, if you want to print this number of copies, this is the amount.

Hameed: Oh, I see.

Awe: Yeah, they give you a quotation.

Hameed: with the whole edit in your book, with, they don't provide any of those services. It's

Awe: Everything is on you.you're going to pay for everything. So like just say you are a printer. So it's very difficult to get publishers. There are very few, publishers. I think, is it Okada Bookshare? They were an online publishing house, but now they packed up because of the government of Nigeria of the day, but it was just one or two houses, publishing houses in Nigeria that you could really say, yes, they will take your books.

But even they, I tried them. They sent me to the quotation side of their company. oh, we have these printing services you can pay for this. It was a very difficult thing. So literally I published my first book with my own money. you pay printers, you have pay someone to id, and everything.

That was how my first book came out,

Hameed: hmm.

Success with First Books and Transition to Fiction

Awe: we got, and that's when, I decided to, okay, this writing thing is not so bad. I mean, I've always been good with storytelling.

Hameed: Were you making money from that book?

Awe: I didn't make as much [00:35:00] money as I did with the dare to talk and secrets of the book because it was the first ones where you have to market, you have to put yourself out.

Everybody has known you as a lawyer and a fashion designer because as a fashion designer, I was quite known in Nigeria and I was in the shows, the TV, the interviews and all. And now you're trying to present yourself as a writer. First of all, people are looking at you like you're confused. You don't know what you want in life.

Hameed: Mm. Mm hmm.

Awe: then you're trying to let them understand that, no, I do know what I want, but it's taken me a while to get here to understand that this is what I really need to do. So it was more like introducing yourself as a writer to the world, to the people who know you, and to the people who don't.

So that's what that first book really was like. But I got a lot of reviews from it, good reviews, people who, but who I didn't even know, they were very blessed by it. And that's a non fiction one. And then I wrote Secrets of the Book. 

Exploring Fiction Writing

Awe: I didn't think, when I started writing Secrets of the Book, I didn't think I could write up to five pages because I had never written a non fiction novel.

And I felt, how am I supposed to start building story from nowhere? Like a non [00:36:00] existent story, it comes with just my idea and then build on it and expand shape. I'm not even going to get to 100 pages, but it ended up being about 200 or 300 pages.

Hameed: Wow.

Awe: like, okay, cool. So I am gifted in this thing.

Hameed: what's it about? By the way, I love this. I love hearing this because me, I'm a writer too. And I also started writing from a very, yeah, I also started writing from a very young age. And then after university, whilst working in tech, I started writing comics. And for me, Writing nonfiction has always been amazing.

It's always been fun. It's always been like, like it's the best thing I could, like, it feels like opening a whole new world. This feels like an escape. So I enjoy that whole process.

Awe: I know, right?

Hameed: for you who is completely new to writing nonfiction, I wonder how that must have felt. Did you feel weird? Did you feel out of your depth?

Did you feel uncomfortable?

Awe: I felt, I did feel uncomfortable because despite the fact that I had never been into fiction writing, I have always been an ardent reader. I mean, I started reading John Grisham when I was in GSS1.

Hameed: For the listeners, [00:37:00] GSS one is year one of secondary school, so that's like year seven in the uk or I don't know, something like

Awe: Oh, okay. Yeah, high school, my first year of high school, so I started reading, Milk, no, I never read Milk Sample, there's this other one, James Halle Chase, and all those books, I was a child when I started reading those, my short novels, so my mind was already expanded to fiction, and I can't count how many books I've read in my life, I love reading.

So being the one writing the story, it was exciting. It was like a journey. It was the same thing like packing my bags and leaving Nigeria, not knowing where I was going.

Hameed: It's an adventure.

Awe: know anybody in this new country and I'm just going, okay, I'm going, it's adventure. I'm going to start life. I'm going to build, I'm going to grow.

That's what it was like, right? In the first page. And it was a beautiful journey. It was an adventure. It was like, what's lying ahead? Let's see, what's the next page going to be? what's this character going to tell me next? So I enjoyed every part of it, and I don't want to write non fiction ever.

Hameed: You don't want to write nonfiction anymore, right?

Awe: I mean, fiction is exciting.

Hameed: Exactly. That's what I don't get people [00:38:00] that write nonfiction. Nonfiction is so fun. It's like the best thing. I enjoy it so much. did you know the characters a lot? Like did you connect with the characters before you started writing the book or did you get to know the characters as you were writing the book?

Awe: the first two novels, for The Dare to Talk and Secrets of the Book, importantly, I didn't know any of the writers. I was getting to know them through the journey.

Hameed: Okay.

Awe: It was like they were telling me their own story. whenever you're explaining this to someone who is not a writer, they look at you like you're crazy.

Like, what are you talking about? But these characters have lives.

Hameed: Yeah.

Awe: And that's why I found it so exciting, because I didn't know what they were going to tell me next. I didn't know where they were going to go, so I finished writing today, I closed my book.

Hameed: I'm actually curious now, what are the, can you give like a one liner for each of those books? so I know what it's about the secrets of the book and the dead do talk. One liner

Awe: the data talk is a good, it's a story about a girl called Amifani, she's a researcher, she loves to go into villages that are almost unknown or going extinct in Africa. She likes to go into these villages, make [00:39:00] researches, do videos. the lifestyle, put it out there like, oh, we have to have these cultures and traditions in our country, in Africa and all that.

And then she goes into this village and before she gets accepted, she's told that she has to go through a traditional medicine person and she realizes it's a woman. And the woman does all the charms and says, Oh, you're welcomed. You know, you don't bring any evil, but the person you're running away from is here.

Hameed: He will find you here. And she's like, I'm not running away from nobody. But through this story, we get to find out that she's actually running away from someone and the person is dead. The person is

Awe: trying to speak to her. Yeah, that's the title, the dead to

Hameed: Oh, I

Awe: So he's trying to speak to her from the dead, land of the dead.

I have chapters where it's about her in the village, everything she encounters in the village that's trying to bring her to that person that she's running away. Then we have the land of the dead, what happens in the land of the dead. And that's exciting because I've never been there.

Hameed: so you're right about the line. Oh, I

Awe: I've never been dead, but you have to be creative, you have to put yourself in the land of the dead, you know, and what goes on when people die.

So it was [00:40:00] exciting.

Hameed: nice.

Awe: Yeah.

Hameed: so that was about a journalist exploring a village and speaking to someone from the land of the dead. And then what is the other one? Secrets of the book. What's that about?

Awe: Tickets for the book is about a girl who doesn't know that she was born with abilities. It's an epic fantasy, so she doesn't know she was born with abilities and she doesn't either know that there are other humans except herself and her mom. It's a book. And she doesn't know that she is a princess because on the day she was born, her father used to be the king, but on the day she was born, the father's commander of the army overthrew, he plotted against the king, killed the king, overthrew and became the king of the kingdom.

So her mother ran away with her into a forest. So she has grown up 16 years in this forest, believing that it's just her mother.

Hameed: I

Awe: animals in the forest until one day being an adventurous girl she goes into one of the caves and then she's following some light thing and then she realizes it triggers her she finds a book it's just a plain book and she starts writing and it takes her back to the [00:41:00] beginning the day she was born and she realizes wait my father used to be a king there's a kingdom he was killed and then she realizes all these powers and now so she's fighting revenge because she gets in contact with man who killed my father, she gets in contact with his son, who is now the prince.

Hameed: hmm. Mm

Awe: she's battling revenge against killing, this person who, your father killed my father, so I have every reason to kill you, you are my domain. And she's fighting, knowing her new abilities, like, like, oh, I am literally supposed to be the one to save the world from the evil that this king has, brought out.

And she's also fighting knowing her new identity. But in the end, one has to win.

Hameed: Okay. Amazing. these are the two books, Secrets of the Book and The Dead Do Talk. you wrote both of them. Did you get it published through one of the big main publishers or was it, did you have to do it yourself again?

Awe: I had to do that myself again. It was tough publishing. And I published both of them the same time. So they came out the same time. That was a lot of money. Don't ask me how much.

Hameed: No, that's fine.

Awe: But that's another problem [00:42:00] we find in publishers. I mean, almost every writer faces that. Getting agents to get you publishers and all that.

Challenges with Publishing Psychological Thrillers

Awe: And I have three other manuscripts, non fiction also. And one of them I've been sending to a lot of agents that has to do with psychology. And like, I'm also this person who loves mental health. I like studying mental health. I love anything that talks about mental health. it tilted towards mental.

 what I do in my stories, I pick something, an issue in the society, an issue that people go through, and try to make it into a fiction. I got three agents who love the story, but they kept saying mental health is difficult to sell as a story.

Hameed: Are these agents in Africa?

Awe: No, they're not.

Hameed: Where were the agents that you were trying to get from?

Awe: of them is based in the UK, but I think she's Irish she was very interested. She read the first 50 pages and she was like this kind of within two days, she was like, can I get the rest of the book? Like, I want to read it all. And she was so excited. Within seven days, she was done reading.

And she was like, she really loved the story and the unexpected ending. and all that, she had a client once who also wrote a [00:43:00] psychological thriller because it's a psychological thriller and she tried her best to get published as for it, but she couldn't. And that's the only reason why she wants to pass on this, because she knows she's tried before to publish, to get someone else published on Psychological Thriller.

But, at the end of the day, because she was like, it was, reading the book was like watching Sixth Sense for her. I don't know if you watched that film, I think it's a Bruce Willis film or something. The unexpected ending and everything. It was a good feel, getting the replies and all, but I just felt, maybe for their society, it's not best for them, but I'm still trying while I still keep writing.

Hameed: you say this is part of your mission of, cause I know you wanted to speak about getting African writers in general, to write on a more global level, basically. Would you say that African writers would need to go find agents out of Africa in order to achieve this, global level of writing?

Awe: we wanted this right now. That's what it looks like, because I don't know if you've read, We Were Once Fireflies. Yeah, it was written by Abubakar, I can't remember his second [00:44:00] name. Now books like that. We have good writers in Nigeria. We have amazing writers in Nigeria, in Ghana, in other African countries, Kenya, there are amazing writers are coming out from these, African countries.

But if you check the publishers, they are all western publishers, and a lot of stories are yet untold because it is very difficult to get publishers in Africa. And the few publishers we have in Africa, like I said, they would rather print. They will give you. Imprints for quotations and all that the system is difficult.

Hameed: Why is this so hard to have publishers in Africa, in Nigeria, in these places?

Awe: Take Nigeria, for example, you have all the machines for publishing and everything, but you don't have that, you are running on diesel, you get, so these are the fundamentals that is a whole lot, you're running on diesel, and then most of them have to import the cover pages. from China and the rest. Because the quality they will give you in Nigeria, you know, the gloss and everything.

Quality of the gloss cover [00:45:00] pages you get and all that will tell you, oh, it's different. So they have to import from the U. S. And also, if you check a book published in Nigeria, like actually published in Nigeria, and the one published from, let's say, any other Western country, the paper quality is different.

It's very different.

Hameed: but in today's age where most people, I think, I don't know, I'm just guessing a lot of people read through Kindle and other digital devices. Does it matter that much about having a publisher? 

Awe: you would think it doesn't, but it still does, because a lot of times, especially the agents, when you are talking to an agent, they want to know if you have physical books, when you're talking to people, they want to know if you have physical oh, so you, oh, you're a published author, are you e book or hard copy?

 they want to know if you have a paper book, they will not take you as serious that you publish online, like, if you have actual books that they can see. It's still a thing. It's way easier for you to publish online.

Hameed: How do you see African writers becoming more global? Like if we were to try to, put forward some sort of [00:46:00] solution, some sort of action that African writers can do in order to achieve that success of becoming more global. What do you think that? We should be looking to do.

should we be looking to build a whole publishing ecosystem in African countries or should every African writer just be targeting agents in the West?

Awe: We need to build our own base, because if we keep targeting the West, we are just going to be a selected few.

The Importance of African Storytelling

Hameed: Let's talk about the importance of storytelling. Why you feel it's so important, how you think it can help with empowering Africans in general and help to achieve the goal, which I'm trying to set out to do in this podcast, which is to. Empower Africans and increase the global respect for the black and African diaspora.

So how do you think storytelling can help to achieve

Awe: Storytelling is like predicting the future or is like setting a pace for what should be. As much as a lot of us see storytelling like, oh it's just some stories you're telling, no it's actually a life being built or the past being, shaped into the mindsets of people. I could also say [00:47:00] storytelling is like past and present history as long as much as it is future history.

So it is very important for Africans to tell African stories because we are the ones who are facing our challenges. We are the ones who are going through whatever we are going through. We are the ones who understand the trajectory of what should be and what is not.

Hameed: How we can possibly empower Africans through the power of storytelling.

Awe: African stories should be told by Africans because we as African storytellers who understand what we are facing, we understand the trajectory of what African life is, what Africans go through, and what possibly could be done to change, the face of Africa through storytelling. It's just like when you watch a movie.

When you watch movies, mostly Africans are portrayed like the poor people, the malnourished people, starvation, and that's what the West did so much that a lot of people actually when they come to Africa, Nigeria, or Ghana, or any other African country and they see civilization, oh, it's actually a lovely place.

Yeah, it is a lovely [00:48:00] place, of course, what would you think? But you don't blame them because The stories they have been given is a one sided story that, oh, we are so malnourished and impoverished, So when we, as African storytellers, actually put out our stories there, we actually let the world know.

We change the trajectory of what we see, of what the people coming after us, get to understand what they read and how they change their mentality, and towards the world. us as Africans and to empower writers in Africa. I believe strongly that if we can start appreciating the writers we have here and we choosing to publish ourselves without having to go through like, okay, I'll have a wonderful, the people who have read through that manuscript.

I mean, that's an Irish agent saying she lost the story. This story is an amazing story and it concerns how people view dissociative identities. in Africa, because it's something like that. You're being, if you have that in Africa, you're telling a day in which, or you're suffering from some disease or something.

Nobody believes that mental health is real. Nobody believes that actually somebody [00:49:00] in Africa or in Ghana or in Nigeria is going to go through dissociative identity disorder, but we face this every day. So this, these are our stories to tell. But I can't get that book published now because a Western person can't publish it for me.

And if an African publishes it for me, what's the possibility that it will go far? What is the assurance that I can get that in a whole lot of places?

Hameed: if an African house was to publish, African company was to publish books, you don't think it would go as far as if a Western agency was to publish the book or Western publisher was to do it.

Awe: a lot of bookshops or a lot of places where books are sold, a lot of places where they can go to, the African people don't have access to this. And even though they do,they have a certain limitation. So it's like, oh, the Western people, they can get my books as far.

Now we have a lot of Nigerian authors, let me not say African, Nigerian authors, who are very known, but they have lived their entire lives in the UK. And so they're not published by [00:50:00] Nigerians or African publishers. The reason they are this known is because they live in the UK, they live in the US, you know, they're writing stories.

These stories that do not actually tell African stories. These stories that are more of projecting the West into Africa.

Sumira: is there something about the fact that mental health is stigmatized, so the type of the nature of the book and its audiences?

Awe: there were two Nigerian authors I read. One, she stays in the, she was born in the U. S. and the other in the U. K. And when I read both stories, both novels, it was nothing related to Africa. I mean, it was an African story, but they told it in a U. K. sense of way, an American sense of way that did not portray anything African.

Because that's where they lived their entire life. They have not really faced what it is. to be an African. They haven't faced what it is to be in Africa and to go through the nuances you go through in Africa. But, I mean, because the fact that they are in the U. S., they can write, they have this few, African [00:51:00] terminologies, they've heard from their parents probably, so they just insert this into the book and then, oh, she's written an African book.

And you find out that, the bookshop in Nigeria are promoting these people way more than the Nigerians who live in Nigeria and have written good books because simply because they live outside the country, they publish outside the country. So they are promoted way above those who are living in the country and have gone through the stories in the country and have written very outstanding stories.

So we are prioritizing,we are prioritizing the, yeah, people coming from all of, yeah, we are prioritizing that, that's the basic truth.

Hameed: And do you think this is a legacy of colonization? This is a legacy of us thinking they're better than us

Awe: Yes, it is.

Hameed: or anything that happens in the white man's land is better than anything we can produce in

Awe: it is deeply rooted in that. let me divert a little from even the right, if you go to radio stations, half of the OAPs, the presenters and the rest, they have accents. if [00:52:00] you're not from the UK, because people just come from the UK and Nigeria, it's difficult to get a job in the UK, in the US.

Let me come to Nigeria. As long as they know that I was in the UK or I'm in the US, it will be easier for me to get a job. And that's what is done. So if you go to the radio stations, they have the UK accent, and if you were not born there or lived there, you have to groom it because you have to stand tush on the radio

Hameed: mm

Awe: and it doesn't sit well.

you watch reality shows and those who have their Igbo accent, they are being taunted because, oh, why is she speaking like that? I mean, she's an Igbo girl. How do you expect her to speak? So it is deeply rooted in colonization. It's deeply rooted in the fact that We put above ourselves, those who have the whitest skin color, because even the black Americans who are in the US look down on the Africans, and you know, sometimes whenever there is that battle between black Americans and Africans on social media, Twitter especially, the way they look at Africans, oh please, we are not one of you, we are black Americans. What the hell? You are Africans. You're not better than us [00:53:00] because you are, you have American tags to you or something.

So it's just that mentality, it's the mentality that. As long as you're African, you are lower, you are beneath, you are not as good as, and if you've watched the Africans who have risen, a lot of the Africans, not all, definitely, but majority of the Africans who have risen to a pedestal in their professions, whatever the professions are, they were brought out.

By the Western, they were noticed by the Western. They were made known to the world by the Western, because even in Nigeria, you will not be known as much until the Westerners recognize you

Hameed: mm.

Awe: recognized.

Hameed: I see,

Awe: that's what we are facing. it's just like how people would ask me when I say, well, I, I don't have any interest in being in the west.

I mean, if I have to go to the US or something, it's. I have to go because I have a reason probably to go write or do a research and then I come back and they're like, why? Are you okay? Why would you want to go live there? I'm like, what is wrong with Africa? Why can't I live in Africa? But it's all rooted in the,in, as much as we don't like to believe it, it's all rooted in what [00:54:00] Africa went through colonization. We always still view it. I was talking to a friend recently, he posted something on his WhatsApp status that have talk about cultural appropriation. And I'm saying, all these people will talk about you. You see a white person on and you're like, ah, your cultural death. And I'm like. you have my kind of hair fixed to your head. It's not your natural hair. unless you're carrying an Afro, you don't have the right to tell the person carrying a Conroe, a white person carrying a Conroe, that they are cultural Africans. Listen, you're, I mean, you are also doing what they are doing.

have the mind, have the

Hameed: Cultural appropriation.

Awe: yeah, have the pride in you to have your own Afro before you can tell somebody else that they are what is not theirs. But, I mean, We put anything that comes from the white above us, and ours might be very good. It's the same thing happening in Nigeria. We have this guy, in law school.

He makes vehicles, and his vehicles are good. But his vehicles are not accepted by the government of Nigeria. I mean, he's taking a whole lot of fight and battle. Why? Because he's made in [00:55:00] Nigeria. They would rather import vehicles outside than promote a Nigerian who makes good vehicles. because it's not Nigerian and made it so it's not good.

So we have that mentality that as long as it's made in Africa, it's not good. We import things as little as toothpicks. Plus we import all those things. Why? Why? 

Hameed: I just wanted to recap the point that we're making and just so I can make sure that I understand your perspective. So an important way or great way to empower Africans in general is by making sure that we tell our own stories and we get our stories out there, right?

However, in order for us to get our stories out there, we are facing this barrier where, where we have to go through publishers and the publishing ecosystem Nigeria and Ghana. Right. From your experience hasn't been that great. So you have to go through Western publishers and rely on them to say yes or no.

So if there was a way for us to get the storytellers within Africa to share their stories with other Africans and [00:56:00] make their stories go from Africa without having to go through the West, you think that would be a great start

Awe: that would be not just a great but an amazing, amazing start and foundation. That would be an amazing foundation to, to begin for a whole lot because there is a whole lot that African writers can do for themselves without having to wait for the West. So if that can be done, that would be amazing.

Empowering African Writers and Readers

Hameed: And isn't that something that we can do through technology today, through just African writers, publishing books on Amazon and all these other platforms, or do you think the audience who, if you want the audience to be Africa, how do you think the audience reads books? how did they get their books, the audience in Africa?

How did they get it online or did they get it by going into this bookstore?

Awe: Africans, contrary to popular belief, that a lot of Africans don't read. A lot of Africans read. There are a lot of readers. And bookshelves, bookshelves are very I think in Africa, in Nigeria, we have lots of bookshelves. In Ghana, we have lots of bookshelves. And I believe that a Nigerian would rather read a hard copy book that he can see.

See that I'm [00:57:00] evil because the Internet is something that is easily distracting. So when you're on your tablet on your Kindle or whatever, I'm reading something else could just come up on before you know that. But when it's a hard book, they can carry around, they can read it around. And as much as we if you like, I pointed out earlier that publishing on ebooks, Kindles and all that is easier.

But a lot of people would rather honor you when you have a hard copy they can see, if you're going somewhere and they say, Oh, she's a publisher. We want to see your books. Like, oh, it's on Amazon, it's on ebook. It's, it is Kindle. They won't take you as serious. You have to have hard copied.

Hameed: you think in Africa, in order for the audience, the people to take you seriously, with the stories and the books that you're writing, it's not enough for it to be an ebook. They put priority on something that has been published physically.

Awe: Yeah. It's not enough to have just eBooks.when you have copies, oh, they'll honor you. You'll be so highly honored. They'll put it in their bookshelf. 

 I prefer hard copy books, but I do know as like with the internet [00:58:00] and most people accessing things online, that is slowly shifting here in the West. And I don't know if that could be the case in Africa too. But the thought that came into my mind was the education system and the kind of books that I introduced in the education system.

Sumira: Are there books from the West? Like if you're studying English literature, for example, are there books from the West or are African writers being promoted throughout the education system? From your experience, I'd love to hear more about that.

Awe: When I was in secondary school, majority of the literature books I read were African recent. Cherno Achebe, Wole Soyinka, Buche Mecheta, Amat Aido, Efwa Swatalan.

These were the books I read growing up. I read Robert Stevenson, Treasure Island, I read more of Hamlet, sorry, and Shakespeare. We, I think we did a whole lot of Shakespeare's collection. But I can't say for now if a lot of, African writers are being read in secondary school. Growing up, I read a lot of literature books written by African authors.

[00:59:00] Chionashefe, Boleswika, Buche, Mecheta, Famous Officer, and the rest. Amatoyedu, of course, Watalan. I also read a lot of Shakespeare's books. A lot of his collections, I read Robert Stevenson's Treasure Island, but I cannot say for now if a lot of African writers have been read in secondary school. I am currently trying to get my book, one of my books, I wrote for secondary school.

I've been trying for almost two years now to get my book, one of my books I wrote for secondary school, into secondary school literature.

Hameed: How is the process of you getting your book into the secondary schools, how's that going?

Awe: Yeah, it's not supposed to be something difficult you submit the copies you have they read through I have sent to both the federal and the state, my state and I keep getting the feedback, Oh, it's an amazing story to be good for schools, but nobody's accepting to, this person will say, Oh, this person has to be in charge.

Oh, call this person. Oh, you need to give a percentage or agree on a percentage. So if you don't, there has to be, okay, so what do I get from it for it to go through?

Hameed: So you think the general attitude of [01:00:00] corruption and bureaucracy is getting in the way

Awe: definitely, it's getting in the way because, The way it is right now, if you don't have someone there, it will be difficult for your book to be selected.

Hameed: I see. Just to wrap this up, if you were to give people advice, like if we're trying to give practical advice to our listeners what practical tips can they take from this conversation that we've just had, in your opinion, with regards to how we can find ways to not only empower people, ourselves, but increase the respects that we get globally.

What should, do you think we should be doing? Because we've identified a problem with publishing. Yeah. We haven't discussed solutions is there something like somebody like myself can do, or someone that's listening to this in Nigeria or Ghana or Kenya, for example, that they can do to try to overcome or.

Take things to the next step if they're trying to get their stories out there.

Well, the first thing you should do is, if you're trying to be a writer, Just do it. I mean, it can be a bit frustrating, but it's about determination and it's about passion. I [01:01:00] mentioned passion from the very beginning. You have to be passionate about what you're doing, it is. You have to be passionate about what you decide to do.

And when you make that decision to be passionate about it and to go ahead with it, despite the challenges you face, you just solve through it. Like, just solve through it and keep at it. Be diligent with it. when I look back at stories I wrote from 2009, 2008, I'm laughing at myself, like, did I really write this?

But at the time, it was Top notch for me, but I have realized that the more write, the better I get, both in my language, my, my style, and everything, my perception, how I narrate the stories, how I put the stories together. Everything changes when you keep practicing, when you keep doing, and if you stop at the point where it's difficult, you will never be able to get to your destination.

It's going to just keep being difficult. So just keep at it, and you'll get to realize that you become better and better. And as much as it is difficult to get the story out there, [01:02:00] once your story is good, it will go out. write a good story. Don't just write, write a good story.

Okay. And you believe if the story is good, it will find its way out of there, whether that's having to go to the West or whether that's going through the few publishers that we have in Africa, or maybe just self publishing.

Awe: just self publish. It would definitely go out there, despite the fact that I published my books myself. I have I, on my ig, I always get messages from people who bought on Amazon that I don't know, I don't know what country they come from, and this time a message is, oh, we read this book. We read this book is so amazing.

 I get almost every now and then I get random readers who message me on IG

Hameed: Oh, so you see, the internet is helping if there are more African writers out there and they are publishing their books online. 21 28 29 They're getting it out. There'll be people out there that will buy it and read it. that is a way to democratize this problem of publishing that we're seeing in a small way.

Awe: having a hard copy is always better, storytelling is an important way to empower Africans is what we've established [01:03:00] in this conversation, and it's an important way to get our stories out there.

Hameed: And if they can do it digitally, that's a way to circumvent us. The institutional issues that we've mentioned. I think the second thing that we discussed was the whole thing of people within Africa, prioritizing books that come from

Awe: Yeah. Western African writers.

Hameed: yeah. Prioritize on Western African writers, Western writers over African writers, right in Africa, is there something we can share a message we can share to them to be like, let's give African writers a chance.

What can we say to change that?

Awe: what could we do to amplify their voices to our listeners,

 no matter how good a writer you are, it's somebody else that's going to tell your story out there. You put it out there, but it has to be the reader, Who says, Oh, I love this story. I had one German American guy who was in Ghana and he went through one of my books and he loved it so much that he had to buy for his sister who was in Germany and sends all the way, he had it and we built from Nigeria to Germany.

It's the readers who make us known as writers. It's [01:04:00] the readers who put our work, so we put it out there, but the readers make it, Oh, I love this book. Oh, I reviewed this book, reviews, reviews go a long way, to publicize the work of writers. Without having to wait for people to pay you for a review.

As a reader, if you love a book written by an artist, you can Put it out there, make it known that this book is amazing. Let people go to me, it's a marketing strategy in Nigeria. If you want people to review, you pay, it's everywhere. It's not just in Nigeria, it's everywhere across the world.

Hameed: Well, based on what you're saying, what we could do with regards to the people listening to this podcast and like, a self help tip that we could all do is we read, we make more of an effort to read African authors. And when we read African authors and we like it, we just, we make noise about

Awe: Hype it like on all your social medias. So that's, that's one of the ways we can do that. And then.

We can have, even if it means having an online forum or, conversations, from time to time between readers and African authors. It's a beautiful way, to share the stories, tell the way forward about it, because [01:05:00] African writers are actually good writers and they need to be allowed that platform.

So if you are out there and you are, you're an African writer, don't quit. If you're a reader, please keep reading African books. Both, I mean, the one reason why also African authors who live outside and both the ones in Africa, they are all good writers at the end of the day, so please read their books. We have people like Chimamanda who have come out, who have made people in the West realize that, Oh, Africans can write cool stories, 

But we have so much more. We have so much more amazing writers. There are amazing writers in Nigeria. Like, there's this book, Egosa. I can't remember the title of the book, but I think it's, Egosa is an amazing writer.

Sumira: Yeah, you're absolutely right. there's only a few writers that you say have got this like Western recognition and sometimes even, leave Africa to continue with their work. I was thinking, let's say there's someone listening who's from Nigeria, from Ghana, or anywhere in Africa, and they want to start reading more African literature.

In addition to this, I'm thinking [01:06:00] about literature written in different languages and dialects as well. Is there a go to space? I mean, of course, I would highly recommend them to read your work. But is there like a go to space where, like a library or something where people can explore the kind of their interests focusing on African authors?

Awe: now I'm not aware of any, and that's the point I was making when, we, when he went off, if we could have that, and his pace conversations, a piece where African writers and readers can come together. I think I made a point before you went off. I know Octa ADA books used to do that, but unfortunately because of, like I said, the economy in Nigeria right now, they have to shut down and everything.

You know, card books, you could go and see. Lots of African writers, lots of African stories, it was an online publishing site where you could all just go, get books and read, but it would be amazing for us to have that. And I wouldn't mind being a part of it. It would please me a lot to be a part of a community of writers and readers from Africa, tell the stories and read the stories and take the stories out to the world, [01:07:00] because if the West is not going to do this for us, we have to do it for ourselves.

Sumira: Exactly that. Right. We've just created something here where hopefully somebody listening is interested in developing this idea, we can facilitate that potentially. that's a very direct solution. We need something that existed before, doesn't anymore, but can. And that is one way to amplify authors, but also potentially end up, I don't know, it could develop into its own publishing company or, it can expand, the idea can expand for 

Hameed: Aue, 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Hameed: thank you for your time. I appreciate this conversation, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation and hopefully we can have you back on at some point and continue it.

Awe: I got caught up in your story and everything, but I feel like there's a lot more to explore, especially from the perspective of African writers.

Sumira: I was going to say we might have potential listeners who are avid or aspiring writers and it could be something where people also send their questions and be able to explore that a bit more. Yeah. But we really enjoyed hearing from you for sure. You definitely captivated us.

Awe: Oh, [01:08:00] it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Hameed: For everyone that's listening, I'm going to put links to Aue's book. In the description, so you can click on those links and, check out her books, pretty amazing. I'm interested myself, I don't know, maybe the next step for you is to get audiobook versions of your book.

Awe: Definitely. And what is, what's that?

Hameed: Yes, yes, because I prefer to listen to books rather than reading them because I don't have the patience.

But I'm sure there are many people that prefer to read them. But, yeah, I'll put those links in the description. And, yeah, I just wanted to say once again, thank you so much for coming on our, we appreciate you.

Awe: Samira. Thank you, Hameed. It's been a pleasure.