Ronu Spirit

Episode 4: Empowering Black Youth - Paul Anderson's Journey & Vision

• Ronu Spirit • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Join Hameed and clarity coach Dr. Samara Farha on the Ronu Spirit Podcast as they welcome Paul Anderson MBE, CEO of Voyage, a social justice charity supporting young black people. In this episode, Paul shares his personal story of growing up in London, his troublesome youth, and his transformative experience in Nigeria. He discusses his journey from being in prison to becoming a youth worker and the genesis of Voyage. Paul highlights the importance of cultural identity, the role of community, and how respecting and understanding one's roots can lead to personal and professional growth. Dive into his insights on supporting young people in underrepresented industries and his vision for future international exchange programs connecting youth to their heritage. This powerful conversation uncovers the challenges and opportunities in empowering African nations and enhancing global respect for black and African people.

Paul:

where's your hair? Hello. I just got my, she, ah, come, she literally dragged me and said, you have to take me there. So you know what we had to do? She actually went to the barber shop, swept up the hair and bring it home and brought it home. She said, never, ever leave your hair with anybody.

Hameed:

No

Paul:

why? She said, Oh, you don't know what our people can do. If they get your hair before you know something is going to happen to you and I can't allow that the respect that we have in our culture is so amazing. It's compelling enough to make you feel like, I'm with my cousins who have a fraction of the opportunities I've had. they have, I would say, ten times the brain and compassion and wisdom. And there's me in the sort of, quote unquote, rich West, not making

Hameed:

the most of it

Paul:

best and if my cousins were in my place, that's I kept just thinking. And I just felt a sense of honor to that.

Hameed:

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Ronu Spirit podcast, where you follow my learning journey as I explore potential ways to empower African nations. and address the legacy of colonization, as well as enhance the global respects for black and African people worldwide. My name is Hameed and as usual, we have Dr. Samara Farha, Farha in the background. One of these days I'm going to get that pronunciation right. she is serving as my clarity coach

Sumira:

Hello everyone.

Hameed:

today's guest is Paul Anderson nbe Mr. Anderson is now the CEO of Voyage, a social justice charity supporting young black people based in Hackney, equipping them with the skills and networks needed to succeed in industries where they are underrepresented. He is of Nigerian descent. I'm very much in touch with his roots. In 2003, he helped raise 14. 5 million to establish the UK Centre for Carnival Arts, which is the UKCCA. It was also the country's first dedicated center to Carnival Arts. So welcome to the podcast, Paul

Paul:

Thank you, Hameed. And I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you. And thank you Samara as well.

Hameed:

Awesome. let's start with where should we begin? I wanna start with your, origins, your identity growing up in London and, What got you into the work that you're doing today, which is basically helping the black youth in London.

Paul:

Oh, wow. Gosh. I was one of these young people that got into a lot of trouble as a young person in my neighborhood. I lived in a really odd place, which was Highbury in Islington. And in those days, we kind of sat in the middle grounds between the kind of really tough estates. I like those tough estates and they just had a big draw for me and I kind of, all my friends lived there. So I ended up becoming quite associated with a lot of people. I wasn't aligned to any particular, quote unquote gang, but I just got involved in lots of problems and lots of, youth conflict issues and, the usual things that kind of spun off that, that led to a bit of a tough time kind of growing up. I spent a bit of time in Chelmsford. I had to actually go into the adult prison, which was a huge shock for a 19 year old, just coming out of being excluded from school, having a little bit of a sort of tough kind of life. I was working in between all of that with, working in furniture shops and all sorts of things, working with lots of amazing people. But at the nighttime in the weekends, I kind of. Went astray and that sort of experience around the criminal justice system and being arrested a lot and then coming out my youth workers approached me and, asked me to kind of give a talk to some of the new kids coming into youth club and they said, why don't you give me a talk just to sort of, tell them what you did and what happened. And they said to me, Paul, you've got a bit of a gift. You can talk to young people, you can connect with them. I think they use words like, sincere and all that kind of stuff.

Hameed:

Authentic.

Paul:

that's the word. It was that stuff. And I said, yeah, I don't mind. they said, do you know that you can do this work? It's like, youth work doesn't necessarily require all of these qualifications and stuff. And it sort of seems like quite a natural progression of what you do and what you talk about. Would you like to do it? And, I sort of said, yeah, and then they asked me to do some voluntary work. And then I remember, there was a course that was run by, the North London Polytechnic and the North London Polytechnic. course was called race, community and society. And I was just so intrigued by that. And I went to that course and part of the course, you had to go off and do more voluntary work. And then I went to work for Camden that led to me getting a job in Camden in the youth services in Islington and Camden. I had those two jobs and I was like, Oh wow, you can get actually get paid to talk to young people. That was like Quite weird. It was just I didn't know you could actually be paid for this. And I didn't realize that my youth workers were actually paid as well.

Hameed:

I signed

Paul:

and, I ended up becoming trained. I went back to night school. I remember in, when I was about 20, I signed up for a lot of night school. I did some arts classes because I'm a little bit creative as well. And so I, did lots of other kind of, qualifications and courses. And that sort of kept me in the conversation with. My seniors and I ended up doing a sort of, social work, of course, but it was part of a source. I think it was called sets while something like that did aspects of that. And that actually got me into criminal justice and I became a probation. a coach working with young people through probation. And then I got into youth justice, and then I ended up becoming a youth justice worker. And then from that, I became linked to a big regeneration project in Camden. And they needed ideas for, the community for a regeneration project in the very early 90s. we won something like 28 million, and they offered me one of the jobs to one run of the projects that I developed. I sort of said, no, this is crazy. I run six, and it led me to getting a job becoming, managing six programs. And I stayed in that neighborhood for about seven years, running a whole range of things like community festivals, community outreach projects, youth club stuff, and a whole range of outreach programs, sort of supporting kids from all different parts and different backgrounds.

Hameed:

let's take it back a bit to when you were young and, you were, growing up in Highbury and Islington between these two estates, getting into a little bit of trouble. you are of Nigerian descent. Your parents, what was the makeup with your parents? Was it your dad that was Nigerian, or

Paul:

Yeah.

Hameed:

it your

Paul:

Yeah. Oh, my dad was a very authoritarian, Nigerian. my mum and dad split up and I was at that critical phase transitioning

Hameed:

I see.

Paul:

from very much from primary school to secondary school. And at that point I felt that's where you need that sort of parenting, That sort of tough love. And, that wasn't there. And for somebody who's coming out of that, almost rejecting that as well, being younger. I think that's what kind of set me out. my dad was not around in that critical period. And I think that's. where I ended up sort of trying to make my own play in the world and without the advice and guidance of my dad. But my dad was very central because although he came back when I was about 16, we built a little bit of a relationship back. So I had him in the background and he was always trying to advise me, don't do this, don't do that. And this is going to end up. And I never forget when I came out of, Chelmsford and woke up one morning. My dad was just there in the room, and I just remember his words so clearly about, and I don't wanna do the, accent

Hameed:

You can try it.

Sumira:

allowed.

Paul:

he just said, what did I tell you? What has become of that? I was looking at him with no words I kind of just remembered that moment so much I think I must have probably cried for about probably about 10 days

Hameed:

Wow.

Paul:

constantly, realizing how foolish I was, but my dad was such an amazing guy, a very eloquent individual. And also just somebody who was, very connected back home and said, cause my uncles, my aunties, he said, look, you need to go and see your cousins. Like I think this is the time and if you don't, it's going to be, I don't know what's going to become of you. And I sort of said, I trust him. So I wrote to my uncle Joe. And, I wrote this letter to him saying, I'm thinking of coming back. The way he wrote back, my uncle wrote back was just the most beautiful letter ever. you can imagine. Ah, you are mine. What do you mean?

Hameed:

so when you say thinking of coming back, you mean going back to Nigeria Oh, I see. you went back to Nigeria

Paul:

yeah,

Hameed:

how long?

Paul:

yeah, I went three months,

Hameed:

Okay.

Paul:

literally, that was it.

Hameed:

was it life changing?

Paul:

was life changing, man, yeah,

Hameed:

those three months.

Paul:

Just those three months. Yeah, just those three months felt like a year. it was quite tough initially because obviously I wasn't used to mosquitoes. I wasn't used to the lifestyle and stuff like that. But I saw Fela, I went to the shrine.

Hameed:

really?

Paul:

So I saw things that people are talking about today. I was there. I saw there.

Hameed:

Wait, so you saw him perform live?

Paul:

Ah, why not? Of course I was there. We hung out.

Hameed:

right now on the hoodie that I'm wearing, we have Fela on the back.

Paul:

Is it

Hameed:

it's a fellow design hoodie. Let me try to show you. Hold on. Hold

Paul:

Oh, don't.

Hameed:

on. Hold

Sumira:

Oh, that is really

Paul:

Oh my gosh, that's lovely, yeah.

Sumira:

very appropriate for today.

Paul:

You know what? I never forget how scared I was because my cousin was saying, he's going to yab you, he's going to yab you. So I

Hameed:

What does that mean?

Paul:

like yabbing, like his style was, you come into the shrine and when you were in the shrine, you sit down and he's playing his music. He's talking, you've got your answers left and right. Everything's in public, everything's popping off and he would just say, Hey, you, they're sitting down, and he would just come with some words and you'd be like, what?

Hameed:

I see And

Paul:

And you would just say, Oh, so what, it would just make fun of you. that's what he means by yab. So you go yabbed. You've finished. I was so scared that will happen.

Hameed:

Did that happen to you

Paul:

No, didn't. It didn't. I was so cool. But I used to swim at the airport hotel. and literally we used to always come back and end up at the shrine and then stay there until it got, a bit crazy. And then we rushed off to come home because.

Hameed:

year was this?

Paul:

I went to Nigeria in 1991.

Hameed:

wow

Paul:

Yeah.

Hameed:

I was just, that was, I was a baby then.

Paul:

I was in Ghana before that in 1989.

Hameed:

Okay

Paul:

my best friend, his Half Ganian and so I went there first and it was kind of weird cause I didn't want to tell my dad I went there first. I was kind of holding that back for me.

Hameed:

Yeah.

Paul:

the actual thing that tripped me was my cousins, like when I went home, cause I'm the oldest son from the oldest son, reverence is just key. like they would come off the bed. They wouldn't even, so I'd sleep on their bed, they'd sleep on the floor. They would make food for me in the morning. Wow. the respect that we have in our culture is so amazing. It's compelling enough to make you feel like, hang on, I'm with my cousins who have a fraction of the opportunities I've had. they have, I would say, ten times the brain and compassion and wisdom. And there's me in the sort of, quote unquote, rich West, not making

Hameed:

the most of it.

Paul:

best And if my cousins were in my place, And only that what and that's I kept just thinking. And I just felt a sense of honor to that. And I just felt there's no way I can go back to the UK and be a loser and hang out with the guys and get into trouble again. And that was

Hameed:

Amazing. Actually, from that

Paul:

literally from that point, my whole life just changed. never been arrested, never got in trouble. I've always had money in my pocket. I was able to do things like buy houses and invest in things. And, as a result, I'm just so grateful that whole connection with home, I think has been a huge driving force for my overall

Sumira:

Definitely. Sounds very pivotal. And what would life be had you not gone to Nigeria for that three months, right?

Paul:

it's the holding of who you are. It's that sort of knowledge of who you are. And, I'm still in touch with my cousins, in touch with them almost every other day. One of them's here now, he has a family. I managed to get him here. his younger one is still there. Akin is my name, say he's there. And they're a huge motivating force for me, and that connection, I'm always embarrassed because I can't speak the language still to this very day. I give them all the usual stuff, they

Sumira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Once in a while, I get to

Paul:

Oh, those are standard. yeah. we've got our inner phrases because I used to go every year, for probably about 12 years after that. I've never missed a year. And, one of the things that we have these sort of codes, like, cause we used to make like, we used to call it, make like a chicken. our street where we live is DB street in Abyssal, which is, in Yalapaja. I don't know if Yalapaja. Yeah.

Hameed:

I know of Iyanokpaja. I don't know it like that. I'm not.

Paul:

Yeah, you're more like, I'm sure Ikoi and all those places there, isn't it? Yeah.

Hameed:

that rich. I wish I was that rich. But yes, I am more familiar with those type of areas.

Paul:

There's a, yes, exactly. it was kind of like we would just get into the rituals of greeting our elders from the moment we left the house right away to, to bus stop or to federal estate gate or somewhere like that before. And we used to just nod to people and people used to call us from far. I knew everybody in my uncle's street, especially in DB Street, which is the name of the street. It doesn't have a name, it's a number. And some letters.

Hameed:

what's so amazing is that it feels like when you went to Nigeria, what your experience was that, when I say it takes a village to raise someone, that community.

Paul:

Yeah.

Hameed:

do you think that community played a huge role in helping you to decide and, change your direction and so on, like having that community around you? And if so, how do you think that can be replicated in the work you're doing now with the youth of today?

Paul:

Yeah, I think there's something about the sort of positive role modeling, like leadership in Nigerian, especially in Yoruba culture is essential. You have to have a position. You are allocated a position. It's by design

Hameed:

Respect is everything is by when you came into this earth, hierarchy, very hierarchical. Yeah.

Paul:

you kind of learn that the importance of that, really. I think there's something about. How that creates a kind of ecosystem of support. And even if it's not just direct support, it's knowing your place and having to sort of quickly adjust yourself to that position instantly. like one minute you're talking to somebody younger than you in a certain language, and the next minute Elder will pass, the next minute you will drop down, and that person will drop down even further and give, That was happening. And it is that kind of order and that sense of respect just really kind of grounds you. I think there's also a kind spiritual side as well, which I remember more because there was something in stories, which, like told you things that were much more deeper and connected. And I remember once, I first got my haircut and I went to a barber about, into the next, into the estate area, which is opposite. from where we were staying. I came home, I said, my auntie said, Oh, your hair, where's your hair? Hello. I just got my, she, ah, come, she literally dragged me and said, you have to take me there. So you know what we had to do? She actually went to the barber shop, swept up the hair and bring it home and brought it home. She said, never, ever leave your hair with anybody. why? She said, Oh, you don't know what our people can do. If they get your hair before you know something is going to happen to you and I can't allow that

Hameed:

Yeah

Paul:

and you know that kind of protection. So we're not just talking about them giving my heart, giving their homes, giving beds, giving the respect, but then that sort of guardianship of your spirit, more. That was just too deep, man. Like I said to my uncle, auntie,

Hameed:

too cool,

Paul:

Betty's, she's, my uncle Joe's passed, but she's still alive. And, she's amazing. She told me all the stories about Juju and witchcraft and things like that,

Hameed:

like

Paul:

and she, they call me Ajala back home because I like to travel. I don't know if you remember one song called Ajala, we like to travel all over the world. It's a person, that song. And my auntie calls me that because when I go, I can't stay in the house. I'll be there one day before I'm traveling here. And Yeah, that kind of guardianship creates that sense of, so you've got a village, which is the physical place, but you also got the other bit around the spirituality, which kind of lets you connect that you're connected to something much bigger than those that are immediately around you.

Hameed:

how can we take elements of that and try to recreate it with Voyage, which is the work that you're doing now

Paul:

I've always said most of our kids need to come back home, I think that's the kind of missing thing in a lot of our kids. And I think finances have an awful lot to do that. I think back in my day, flights and stuff were, there's that sort of calibration between your income and your ability to be able to do that. Whereas today it's kind of gone some, so out of step. So parents, like I, even me, my children, I've taken my kids, all of my kids to our home in Ghana, where I have my second home. And I wasn't able to continue that until when they all got to a certain age over seven and eight, because they thought, was it? mind 10, where they became more adult fees. it becomes really difficult, but almost impossible. And, the importance of it for me was, you get a sense of place to get a sense of pride. And I think that's what I've always tried to do. And I think traveling there is one thing, but having a connection is more important. I've been trying to think about how we can connect it with our programs. And one of them is through an international development framework. I've always felt that we need to, but as the European funds have dried up. So that doesn't, it can't happen anymore. They used to have a wild card,

Hameed:

Is that because of Brexit?

Paul:

Yeah, because of Brexit, they've taken that out and the wild card element of it would be you can apply to do an exchange between Croatia, Lithuania and London, and then you would choose a wild card country that could be brought in as a sort of fourth wheel. and, that ran out. so that doesn't happen anymore.

Hameed:

you mentioned that you think the kids need to like, the young adults in your youth communities, in your projects and from Voyage and all the other youth communities out there would benefit from going back home. when you went back home, you had a connection because you had family. So you were very embraced. Do you think they'll be able to be embraced like that is there a thing that can be set up so that they feel something similar to what you felt?

Paul:

Yeah. I think so. I mean, you're absolutely right, though. I am quite fortunate in a sense of that connection exists and is still there. And a lot of the kids that we work with come from kind of war torn countries. For example, it could be parts of Africa, which are really expensive. We know the DRC Congo situation, Sudan situation, and also Mali and so on. I think the infrastructure is slightly in Africa is changing. But I think there is something about The being connected to something that actually is, the future. And that's what I didn't really understand until I got a bit older that, Africa is the future is going to be the thing that every country needs to have a connection with. And I kind of sensed that early days and everything's here, but actually why is it all here in the West when it's actually originates here?

Hameed:

you also mentioned the thing about identity. you said something along the lines of, Given that sense of pride and that sense of identity you got when you went over there, do you think that's something that's lacking in our youth in the UK in general,

Paul:

yeah,

Hameed:

pride in your own identity?

Paul:

Definitely. I felt like it helped with that sense of who you are, why you think the way you do, why you may even have a slight alternative thoughts that are different from your other people and your other, your peers. And I think having that connection with your ancestry can tell you things that you can't quite conceive about. things when you're thinking about them practically, logically, or juxtaposing and comparing yourself with other people. it gives you a kind of new lens by which you can sort of, be aware of yourselves. I think that's kind of what it did. And I think that's, you can't. fathom thatwhile it's happening. And I think this is just an older person talking about what must have happened. there's a sort of sense of passion and pride, that you come from a place, like I know my middle name is Akinpelu. I knew what that stood for, my name stands for somebody with valor has walked into the room, which is kind of like a bit weird, but along, but it's, like. Your dad names you for a reason and there's a connection with that when you get close to what that name means and you understand the cultural context of that, you kind of think I've got to live by that

Hameed:

live by that,

Paul:

I've been one of these people I've never been scared to go anywhere. in the world on my own. and, just forge that path wherever I felt I needed to go. And I think that sense of that spiritual connection and that understanding about your name and all those things have really empowered that journey. it's almost like I've got to be true to my name,

Sumira:

commitment that you've made to yourself. I think everything you've shared, is a good example of when you are of dual heritage and you go back to your home country and find a connection. And I do think everything you've been saying, I've been thinking it's the same in the Indian culture when it comes to our names. and generally everything you talk about is very collectivist, people of the global majority are from collectivist cultures. And that's something that is lacking here in the UK because we are just, so focused in an individualistic society that even though we come from collectivist cultures, we embody more of the individualism. and I think people in their formative years really struggle with their identity. And when it comes to the other side, not giving age out or whatever, but you do have a sense of appreciation. of your culture. So I think it's a journey of discovery, but you don't realize the importance of it until, like, in hindsight, it's Something that you discover. So I think if we could promote that with young adults to get them to understand that actually you don't have to pick and choose, and you can consolidate your different identities in a way that's unique to you, then it can be really helpful.

Paul:

100%. I mean, in small ways, like we named some of our projects, for example, like one of them, we named it Sankofa, for example, we tried to come up with concepts that kind of get kids questioning, what does this mean? like, why did you give it that name? what's the idea behind it? And you try and find kind of. just fun ways to kind of get kids talking about the culture. So for example, when they come in, we always ask, what's your name? no, what's your name? And then they go, Oh no, I'm not telling you.

Hameed:

they go, oh

Paul:

And then you would tell them, Oh, my name is this. And then all of a sudden they go, Oh, okay. Then. So you've got one of them at all. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Hameed:

And, Oh, like,

Paul:

Mostly kids think I'm, Black Caribbean or something, they will ask that, they'll be a bit shy and look at my name. It's Paul Anderson. It's like, I'll give you some white guy on the end of the phone, that's kind of being good. just to flip it slightly, my mom is Estonian. my mom and dad met in the 60s because my mom migrated from Estonia to Australia. And because of that kind of journey, she became a Commonwealth citizen. And so did my dad through Nigeria, because Nigeria was a Commonwealth country as well, and in those days, the Commonwealth Institute used to facilitate gatherings of families. And that's how my mom and dad met. equally I've been to my mum's country several times, and I know family there too, and I think what I've taken from a lot of my experience in Africa is, like knowing yourself in all dimensions that exist only serve to just empower you and make you stronger.

Hameed:

Amazing. This is actually a very good point you're raising. I actually was part of a, delegation that went to Africa. it's a program called FutureBoss, which basically got the, black entrepreneurs from the UK that are working on interesting, subjects and businesses. and, as part of that program, we had a time where we had a trip that was sponsored to Uganda, to visit and explore and connect with other entrepreneurs in Uganda and, Visit various businesses, just explore a place, speak to the bank. It felt amazing. And, I'd never been to Uganda before then, so even for me, who I've been to Africa plenty of times, it still felt incredible. there were those within the court that were, of Caribbean descent as well. And I'd never been to Africa in general. And they just felt like just that the experience was like a week. But just the experience of, being welcomed, going to all those different places, seeing the businesses and the moves that are happening on the continent, they feel, Oh, they decided to feel pride as well. I mean, so I think something like that could also be useful for voyage, if that's something that. I don't know if you're interested in or, might be looking to do. I feel like it's something that, if you pick the select few kids that, and then found, created a program for them to pick the country in Africa, created a program for them to go in and explore and visit that program see the nation and just see a different side to the world.

Paul:

Oh, wow. Certainly. one of the reasons why my home exists in Ghana is because I wanted to create that experience there. So I've got my own home, but I've been working on a sort of broader plan of guest houses and, things of that nature. So one of the sort of things I've said is perhaps part of my kind of exit from voyage will be to bring a whole group of kids there. And I kind of, that journey would be sort of always, in the sense that I've now brought a new group of kids now to kind of come back to the UK and then I can say, I'm here now. See ya. You guys get on with it back home.

Hameed:

Yeah.

Paul:

But yeah, that is very much part of my plan. And in many respects, a lot of what I've been trying to do in Africa is to try to get that to be a sort of a business that I can work on and actually use that as a base for kind of extending the work I currently do here in the UK.

Hameed:

tell us what Voyage does, tell the audience, and then I will talk about how I think this could be useful to what you're doing.

Paul:

Voyage is a youth justice, charity. We were formed by the Black Police Association. a lot of our work was very much about trying to stop young people's interaction with police and leading that to arrest. we were one of the first charities, if not the first charities to run stop and search workshops, to run workshops around empowering young people in various situations around criminal justice. sector. we used to have a very big investment by Mopac delivering workshops across London. Voyage was set up to combat young people getting into the criminal justice system. what's happened, that's become quite a crowded space and a lot of organizations are now doing that. what we've been evolving towards is how we can take that principle of working and using the same approaches, but implying those approaches to different areas, such as the environment and the technology sector. Because one of the things about working with young people through criminal justice is you tend to be talking about deficit agendas and often you're working with quite a risky group of young people in that space. So the opportunities for their growth is quite minimal because you've got to have long. wraparound support for those type of young people to keep them connected to stop them from going astray. And what we've struggled with is seeing the progression of those kids after our programs. So we decided to design new courses that can create more, if you like, aligned pathways to industry so that you started to learn about. Sustainable cities. Great. Then now you make your choice around A levels. You then start choosing biology, STEM, subjects of that nature. And then you apply for university and do the same. And the idea is ensure that pipeline is nurtured from a younger age so that you see kids end up in those sectors. And our job is to really just provide the mentoring, the guidance, the workshops and interventions and fun opportunities that help young people in that four year journey from 14. To roughly about 18 when they leave voyage and what we're really now trying to do is to because we've seen that work and we now working on kids who have now graduates and what we're trying to do is tap those kids to come back to voyage and act as the sort of peer support for some of those new entry level kids. And that's plugged into another issue that we found that many kids. in university, black kids in university are struggling to stay in university because one, they don't have the finances, they don't have the social circles and they've lost that connection with their mainstream homes because they've migrated thinking it was a great opportunity. And, I've seen roughly about three categories emerge of kids who are at uni. You've got some that fly and we've got an amazing woman, Rachel, who's a graduate. She's actually now just become the chair of the ACS. In Cambridge,

Hameed:

ooh

Paul:

She's a really rare case, but most of our students would just about hold it down for any other one like Isaac, for example, he gave up his second year because he just couldn't handle it anymore and chose that he needed to come back and just get into work. And I'm noticing that category of kids who are not able to sustain that kind of period is so we're developing things like. alumni programs so that those kids could be more supported where they're in university and we can offer that through work experience, through mentoring. And we've got partners who give people jobs as well in the summer. so those things have been really helpful for us to kind of ensure that. and we're now taking out that model and applying it to technology. And that's why we're working on this plan to have a new course called young leader for smart cities. we'll do exactly the same thing as sustainability. Safer cities program, but effectively we want to see more kids enter tech. And that's the other area that we're working on now.

Hameed:

Amazing, I love that. That's a tactical change. you've basically created a whole pipeline from, the age of 14 to 18, making sure that we getting them young, getting them interested in areas that they otherwise might not have been interested in. And then hopefully leads to them being in STEM areas for careers, which are quite high paying roles. And we need more of people like us in those type of roles. Same with technology, same with AI, which is the second thing you're working on. the more you talk about it, the more I'm like, yeah, you could really create like some sort of, delegation, some sort of programs and get it sponsored somehow. I'm sure you can,

Paul:

Well,

Hameed:

because, because

Paul:

get these days as

Hameed:

plus, let's not forget You helped raise 14. 5 million, you're pretty good at raising money. if there's a way you can Raise some funds and like create some sort of delegation program, especially the sustainable cities one climate change affects Africa the most so you going into this African nations and because I'm pretty sure that people that are also doing stuff to try to combat this and set up meetings with them. and bring the kids and show the kids, first of all, the effects, the people on the ground that are working to fix it. And that's happening to just so they have that deeper connection to the work that they're doing. And I feel like even that will motivate them to stay in university even more. Like it'd be like, actually I'm doing this for a greater purpose, not just to make money, but I've seen the effects of this. Cause I wasn't Ghana, I was here. I saw the beach. Have you seen the beaches in Ghana, by the way? I saw something on, Social media recently with where all the garments

Paul:

Yeah, King Legger.

Hameed:

I don't know the name of it, but I know it was a beach and the entire thing was just filled with clothes, just rubbish clothes, they showed the beach beforehand, which was just clean and then afterwards just piles like mountains of clothes, and this is part of climate change. This is the type of things that, if they saw that with their own eyes, they were like, okay, no, okay. I'm not just doing this to make money. I can actually make a change in the world. And I can, and these are my people. Cause I don't know, I feel like no matter where I go in Africa, I feel like there's that connection that, this is my people. So they might get the same connection.

Sumira:

a lot of people do want to give back or go back, but they just don't know how. So to have someone to facilitate, that would be really great. But I was just going to take it a bit back and, I was thinking, being a first generation grad myself in my family. and even being in the field of psychology where it's predominantly white females, seeing people of the global majority succeed and have role models as you're doing and facilitating really helps people because, when I see another South Asian psychologist or my colleague who's Ghanaian, we had a lecture and it was a black psychologist, male psychologist, and he was in awe. 30 plus years he's never seen another black psychologist until that lecture and how impactful that still is. And people still say to me, Oh, I'm being supervised for the first time by somebody of the global majority. And I think it's so important for people to see people like us representing.

Paul:

Wow. so true. when we were reading and learning an awful lot about the environmental sector, what was fascinating was to find that all of the people who graduated and been through it, none of them. And all the people who had even a lecture from a black person

Hameed:

Wow.

Paul:

and then we got in touch with another young Nigerian guy who's doing a master's and we found him talking about that particular point and we amplified his social media as a result. And it's still like that to this very day. There's hardly anyone in those spaces there that looked like us. And it's one of the things that I always say to our young people is that when you want to rise in this world, like the higher you climb, the colder it gets, like the higher you it gets,

Sumira:

I'm I'm stealing that

Paul:

explaining that in that kind of way. You know, and it is absolute truth and you can actually put that in literal as well because Andrew, my, one of my trustees, he works in finance is one of these big finance people. And he goes that, like he leaves his house, he's from a black family, he leaves the neighborhood, says hi, and in a moment he gets into the city of London. Any connection with his identity is left at that reception after he says, yo, how's it going bro? And climbs the lift from the, from the security up to the next floor and that's it.

Hameed:

Yeah

Paul:

He's

Hameed:

security.

Paul:

Andrew, it's kind of, and he just tells me that is. The mindset that you've got to adopt and uh and and it's something that we need to talk to a lot of kids about because in many respects, a lot of people don't want to challenge that a lot of the time. They just think, Oh, no I'd rather stay here, And I think that is so important that when you climb that lift, there are people that look like you in every stage so that you kind of encouraged all the way by virtue of another person being there, living that story as well.

Hameed:

I was going to ask you the question of, what do you think can be done to empower African nations? And because that's the question I ask every guest that comes on, but I already think I have an answer for you, which is I want this thing to happen. I want this delegation, this, what do you call it when you take a group of people and, take them on a program? What'd you call that? Is it a delegation exchange trip?

Paul:

so for us, it depends on the language, beneficiaries, cohorts,

Hameed:

I want you to take a group, a cohort of these young adults, take them on a sustainable program to. explore whichever country that's doing amazing things about that and do all that and then do the same thing for the tech. Kenya is great for the tech by the way. They have an, Nairobi has an amazing startup ecosystem. and I have connections in Kenya. I actually know the head of a VC firm actually. and I have connections for the sustainable thing as well. if you did want to do this, I'm sure I can connect you to people that know people,

Paul:

One out of ten. That connection, even that whole stop the kind of, the brain rot, people leaving these countries, that's a, it's a great thing that they're creating those ecosystems over there because we need to see how people stay in Africa, rather than leave and come to the West, so when you get there, you're having to start systems from, very basic beginnings. so absolutely 100%. And believe it or not, I have been working on a few international exchange ideas. And, one of them is around Ghana because there's a huge infrastructure around the sort of climate change community. And I know quite a few artists, because I've been touring with artists and being doing all sorts of things over the last probably 25 years. My connections over there are quite strong, so I'll probably start there for environment. But in terms of tech and Africa, that's amazing. I'd love to follow that up in terms of the kind of

Hameed:

I know people in Ghana too.

Sumira:

This is great.

Hameed:

a lot of my university friends, are Ghanaian. that I was chilling with in uni,

Paul:

you went to Unilag?

Hameed:

no. I went to uni in Manch, in

Paul:

Oh, in Manchester. Oh, right.

Hameed:

But they came as international students and then they went back to Ghana.

Paul:

Oh, okay.

Hameed:

but yeah, like I know people in Ghana too. And I feel like Kenya would be great for the tech thing. But just in general, I'm trying to think about it for you. I'm trying to think through the steps because when I

Sumira:

I was going to say this is very Hameed excited over an idea. Hameed say what you got to say, but I also want to hear what Paul has to say.

Hameed:

Okay.

Paul:

But we can beg that one for a bit later. generally to say it's very hard to get international funding to do trips and travel today.

Hameed:

Yes. That's what I was going to ask

Paul:

Yeah, because when I was a youth worker, there was a very profound case of a boy who Went on an international exchange and because he was an offender, prolific offender in the community, he went and it was the Kenya in that part of East Africa and he carried on offending in such a way that actually the whole group got sent back to the UK. It reached government and that led to a real kind of stopping of international exchanges because. it was just so out there, and there's been a sort of series of kind of You know, funding kind of issues that kind of beset the country over the years that There's never been a chance to really resurrect it. So I haven't seen funding to do it. As I said, Europe's gone.

Hameed:

that was going to be my question when I was trying to think through it, because I realized that Voyage is a non profit organization, right? and I'm like, okay, so if it's done through Voyage and it's going to be a thing where whoever's sponsoring this is just funding it out of the goodness of their heart. I was trying to find a way that you can get someone to fund this and it benefits them in some way as well. have you thought about that? Like how can we get this funded? And also it benefit the person that's funding it or the organization that's funding it in some way. what value? could this cohort add, what do we have that we can give on our side, whether that's, maybe Voyage has a huge platform and you could show off the people that you meet, or maybe those cohort of kids are especially talented and they, I dunno, offer to give some of their time or, in exchange for something or, I'm trying to think. Mentorship, I don't know. because you did mention those ambassadors are quite intelligence themselves. these young adults are quite intelligent people too. So if there's some sort of mentorship or exchange in some way that could also add value To the people that. Are sponsoring it so that it's, it is not just a donation or a good deed, it is more of a

Paul:

An investment.

Hameed:

An investment. I like that.

Paul:

It's an investment and it's like investing in the future, isn't it? It's kind of like getting them to see the possibilities of the outcome of someone who you invest in with that intentioned way to say go.

Hameed:

Yeah

Paul:

Let's see what this does to you in terms of your empowerment choices you make, and then how that then potentially can lead to that young person being wanting to go back home like me, because I'm having to go back home and retire there. Everyone work that I do in some way, shape or form there. yeah, absolutely. And just say like the manhood academy who you know davis and his team they've established a link in gambia and they've linked the idea of manhood and getting young people to go through these various kind of what they call rituals and rites of passage

Hameed:

Ceremonies.

Paul:

and these various ceremonies that they've adopted they've taken a much more sort of spiritual thing. And I've taken a mix of what South African kids do when they walk around, when they reach maturity, they have to walk across the plains and kind of come back. And then after that, they wear these cloths. He's adopted ideas like that. And he's also introduced a sort of fundraising campaign, so each young person has to raise 50 percent of that money or 60 percent of that money through their own means. and I think that they're the sort of ways that we need to look at it today. So you might get an initial investor, you might sort of say, look, I've donated that cause, and then the youngsters will have to sort of, supplement it with their own fundraising kind of ideas.

Hameed:

Fair

Paul:

think it is really possible. the realist things, and I can tell you now that I'm aware of lots of other things that have gone wrong, international things. For example, there was an organization I knew and worked with where Prakash, who was the head of cultural cooperation, he actually died. While he was on visit to Morocco, Marrakech, I'm talking probably a good 25, 30 years now. And, cause he died there. he had this issue about him being repatriated and I think they weren't able to even afford that. And it crazed or created all sorts of issues. And, so yeah, just, if there's a tragic accident that happens, I think there's lots of that, that broader dimension about.

Hameed:

There's a lot of logistics to think about.

Paul:

but I think that's also pushing back a lot of others. And as health and safety now is like on swole, everything is guided through safety, health and safety, safeguarding and, It makes that very risky, so it will have to be a very, like it'll have to be a tailored group of kids. And I probably wouldn't want to go with anyone who could potentially lead, go off a straight course, You'd be so nervous about them.

Hameed:

yeah. No, that makes sense. in that case, what else in your opinion can be done to empower. African nations to increase the respect for black and African people globally.

Paul:

I think most importantly is making sure that you make a clear commitment to that and do it. we work with black communities because we're addressing the exclusion and the fact that there's not many provisions are available for these kids.

Hameed:

Yeah.

Paul:

We want to create safe spaces for them to come together and engage and to be their authentic selves and our kids access mainstream provision. There's not that opportunity for them to do that. So we want to be that sort of counterbalance where those conversations about identity themselves and their own futures can be discussed, openly. and I think there's a such an important place for doing that. And that's why working with. black communities is a really important essential, thing to do and to offer.

Hameed:

you mentioned something as well in the beginning, you said, when you got in trouble and you ended up in prison, this was after you had been excluded. and it's something that I've also heard mentioned by Mr. Viv Amun, it says, the pipeline of from exclusion to prison can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Paul:

the pipeline from school to prison is very well documented it really just. Documents the sort of lack of support for young people from school right away until they end up getting arrested by police. it's basically a whole system of failures that, have not been supported by, the mainstream society and mainstream schools, and systems. like a young person goes to school and they don't necessarily have a strong family background, for example, they may not have. their parents was working and therefore less time and less support for that young person. They're not actually going to get additional support in the school. When the school works out and this child doesn't have that sort of parental support, they're more likely to just sort of lead that young person. They don't, champion that young person or invite them to things. The parents are not there to advocate. So that type of young person falls through all sorts of cracks in their journey, right away through these mainstream institutions. And that's why that pipeline to school, to prison exists because there's just no support for that child as they grow and move.

Hameed:

does it disproportionately affects black students? And if so, why do you think that is?

Paul:

we exist to be role models for our kids. we share our lived experience so that they can. Look at their own and go. That's normal. That's okay. Maybe not okay, but I can improve that, when they're in a mainstream environment that experience is there, so they don't have those role models. They don't have that trust. They don't have that safe space to have those conversations. and often they're hiding, they don't want that to be now that will come off in behavior that will come off in terms of their choices that they make with that will be about the identities that they adopt and the suits that they wear to try to look, and feel comfortable in a space that they're not really comfortable in. one of the things I, when I was a kid, I'd have always the best trainers always at the top, like names and labels and, how do you get that? Well, you've gotta steal sometimes to get that. You've gotta do, and they're the suits that we wear that give us the veneer that we've arrived somewhere, we're doing well, we're respectable, or should be respected. And often that goes the other way, you end up doing a bit more crime, and then that gets you arrested, that gets you in trouble, that gets you on the naughty step, that gets you, targeted, that gets you sort of known for being a of person. The school to prison pipeline remains, and then you've got all the other insidious things like, for example, teachers that are racist, systems that are racist, and all of the real factors which, when that child turns up, those, issues are around them, it's more likely to happen, and unfortunately that is what's happening to our kids, whether it's poor advice, I mean, I remember going to fight my case in the court, I didn't tell my parents, I just, got a legal person, got the support, thought I was going to beat the case, thought I knew better than my parents and knew better than anybody else and I ended up going into prison because that was the wrong advice. We don't have the support in the places that are important for us to kind of challenge. Those ideas that we have, and we don't even know where we get them from, but we somehow look at characters and look at people in the media and we model ourselves on these people. And that becomes a suit that we wear, but it's not really us. Hameed. your name is Adigan, did you ever have a brother who was a dancer and did a dance project in Hackney here? And he did something called Taxi, where he danced his whole troop dance on a taxi. Okay. his name was Adigan as

Hameed:

Oh, I

Sumira:

a relative,

Paul:

okay.

Hameed:

read

Sumira:

long distance cousin.

Paul:

Definitely. We'll be on the same front of the tree, but not necessarily the direct descendant.

Hameed:

Yeah,

Paul:

My son and my

Sumira:

Hello, son and daughter.

Paul:

Femi and Nasria. my son's 33. And, my daughter's 20. Yeah, 21.

Hameed:

Amazing, yeah. Pretty cool, similar ages to me. Your son. What?

Sumira:

age. Oh, nice.

Paul:

are.

Sumira:

in

Paul:

your money? My money. Gee.

Hameed:

we're gonna wrap up in like five minutes.

Paul:

Oh, lovely. That's amazing. They will be really happy about that. Cause I promised them jollof at uncle's around the corner. So we have a few, my kind of takeaway

Sumira:

the one, Homerton High

Paul:

Yeah, no, that's, like Dawson Market Road in that little small square, Gillette Square, just at the side there, that little Bradbury Street. And then I go to Uncle's, which is Leckie's, which is just Kings Road as you, before you get to the junction on Downham Road. That one just on the right hand side there. he does a sort of pilau jollof rather than American rice, like, American grain rice.

Hameed:

he does. Jasmine style of rice.

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of, nice. So I'm looking

Sumira:

check them out.

Paul:

that. Sorry

Sumira:

thank you. It's been really interesting. I've learned a lot from you today, and I think, I connected a lot to the conversation and resonated a lot because, One of the reasons I'm in psychology is because of this experience of identity, holding multiple identities, especially as someone of the global majority, how do we, consolidate our identities in this process of acculturation? that's has been my focus throughout my academic, I want to say life, but I don't think that's

Paul:

Yeah, it helps.

Hameed:

Yeah, academic life, academic

Paul:

Young

Sumira:

of my specialist interests is acculturation. So how do we manage our dual identities or even try cultural identities, especially in the West. So everything that you've been saying today, has been, something that I've resonated with, doing research on dual identity conflict in Indian women, for example, and looking at how people who come from collectivist societies, and how living in the West and how that impacts. for me, my parents separately migrated at different times. So I'm depending considered first generation, but I think a lot of the youth, one of the things they struggle with is, the key point you've kind of spoken about is sense of belonging throughout. So that I feel like has been the theme of our podcast. And I think a lot of people during their formative years, and even afterwards, they're just trying to find a sense of belonging. And what can sometimes happen is that because you want to belong, you end up kind of letting go of your. cultural heritage, because it's more important to kind of assimilate instead of integrating your identities, you tend to assimilate, and then you kind of lose this entire part and identity of you until you get a lot older. And I think that's where people experience a lot of cognitive dissonance or a lot of conflicts, not knowing that you can kind of, hold multiple identities and that's normal. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people don't understand that. That's okay. and they don't have the support network, like you said, to be able to explore that, which parts of my identity do I really appreciate? And can I have a love of my culture and learn the language? I know growing up, it was cool to speak English and not really know how to speak your mother tongue, but actually when you grow up, you realize, oh, it's an important skill to be able to do that. And I think what you're doing with your work is you're trying to nurture that back into the youth. And, I think that's really important. I don't think growing up I had that kind of space. I don't think a lot of people have that space. the only good thing now is that because we have social media, we have, lots of resources outside and we also have memes. of like our parents asking us to get the controller or these like very universal kind of jokes that we have in our collectivist cultures. I guess I was just reflecting on that. It's really important in order for people to want to go back to the continent of Africa, they need to first feel a connection to their roots in whatever way that may be, and actually learn that going back is actually a gift like you yourself. You went back, you realized, oh, the people over here. would do twice or three times more if they had the opportunity. I have the opportunity. So I think being able to nurture that in the youth can also empower them to want to go back. If it's not through this delegation Hameed is talking about, then maybe on their own, through the empowerment and through the program that you have, you're hoping to set up in Ghana as well. that's my overall reflection. I really appreciate, being able to talk to you today.

Hameed:

able

Paul:

I appreciate your summary there and also just the inserts you shared and some of the words, like the collectivist communities, a term I've bumped into, I might've heard it in a slightly different way. Yeah. absolutely there is something about how the identity has been a really empowering kind of. force for me in a sense of knowing who I am, not wanting to sort of let, like, quote, unquote, let the side down and stuff like that, it's all just sort of driven that purpose more. I'm actually planning my retirement. with voyage and I'm trying to work, develop a sort of handover strategy to be able to pass on the charity to somebody else to kind of continue it. And, that's something that I'm really keen to do. And I've been exploring all sorts of different ways to ensure that some of the ideas that. remain intact with voyage because someone quite easily come along and want to do their own thing, which obviously they can do, but I want to make sure there'll be some tenants in there that remain, like, the international project, make sure that's something that we set a goal for in the organization and the journey is back to Africa, most certainly, And I think using the themes around the environment and technology and even safety, what we started with around policing is still a really important to keep alive because that appeals to a lot of kids who see that side of their lives and want to change and come out of it.

Hameed:

Amazing.

Paul:

I'm really grateful for the time and, being here because I'm talking to you about my life. It's sometimes a bit strange as well, because I'm like, Oh, yeah, often, I'm a sort of dewy type person. So I just always do things. I sometimes feel kind of strange. I actually never even thought about that bit,

Sumira:

that's the thing. We live in such a busy life. We don't actually get time to sit down and reflect or even reminisce and appreciate Yeah,

Hameed:

all the amazing.

Sumira:

I wanted to ask about Voyage is it something that all black youth in London can access or is it focused on a particular borough? So if there are listeners who are interested in engaging, whether that be, to mentor or to be part of the programs. like a 14 to 16 year old or is 18 sorry 14 to 18 year olds. How do they yeah, how do they become members?

Paul:

we get our kids through connections with schools. And because we work with schools, with youngsters who aren't necessarily doing that well, we get referrals through schools, but we've got age old connections with schools and people and teachers we've known over the years. And they always contact me every once in a while and say, what's happening? And they go, Oh, I've got a few young people that are available. What are you doing? And then. I would share them a link to something and then they would sign up. So we have kids from all over London joining us. And I've got some of our ambassadors come from as far as Lewisham, Brixton, Haringey, Tottenham, and of course we're based in Hackney. We've got probably about 70 percent of our kids are mostly Hackney based. Yeah, but we are open to all kids of color, no matter where, if you want to make the journey, people like Sam and others, they come from West London. Yeah. a lot of our projects appeal to certain types of kids and they would come as far as possible just to engage with them, especially like our heritage program, where we're writing a book on our Windrush elders at the moment. And that really appealed to a really interesting cohort of young people. yeah, people from all over London can join us anytime. We would never close the door to any young person, even if they, were coming from as far as possible. We would do it, we just, are you going to get home? Do we call your mom? that kind of stuff.

Sumira:

It's amazing. Yeah.

Hameed:

in terms of practical advice for our listeners, any other advice that you can offer with regards to things that can do practically from your experience in your life and the work you're doing.

Paul:

Wow. I think the key to it is talk to real people, like, you've got this device, that's actually probably taking up most of your interaction and communication. Never forget the value of, direct contact with people. I always say, like, look at the people who are looking up, and they would tell you that will point to somebody who's doing something different from most people because everybody else is looking down.

Hameed:

What do you mean by that?

Paul:

this is the kind of pose, and this is the pose everybody's adopting. And for me, when I see somebody looking up, I'm like,

Hameed:

instead of looking at their phones. yeah.

Paul:

and for me, there's something about how that speaks to somebody who's different thinking different, wired slightly different. And I'm interested in that person, but yeah, I would just say, like, challenge yourself to speak to people, Older than you, in different circles of life, be vulnerable, don't feel like you need to hide and pretend, and be somebody that you're not, and I think, it's things like that I've always found to be quite powerful and transformative because a lot of us are wrapped up with notions of who we look like, who we are, who we think we are, but actually we'll go home. As I said, when I was You know, my dad turned up and how that made me cry for so many days and

Hameed:

I

Paul:

I can sort of conjure a tear or two even just thinking about how powerful that was. And I think there's some value in being vulnerable, a lot of us need to learn how to be our authentic selves rather than pretend. That being vulnerable is weak, they're the things that will bring people closer to you. And that's something that I've just learned. Be open, talk to people and, share,

Hameed:

Mr. Paul Anderson, the advice is to communicate with those that think differently and you can spot them by seeing those that aren't always on their phone. Instead of looking down on their phone, they're just looking up.

Paul:

around. They're like, Whoa, that's great. That's amazing. That's cool.

Sumira:

Yeah. Kind of in reality, instead of,

Paul:

yeah.

Sumira:

virtual reality and escaping, yeah. Being present and mindful.

Paul:

Exactly. Trying to feed their dopamine, aren't they? Like literally but like, finally it's out there, right? But I ride a bicycle, and I never leave home without it, and it's just things like

Hameed:

like,

Paul:

Even in the rain, yeah,

Sumira:

need to learn.

Hameed:

jacket, it's all set

Paul:

of the clothes that you wear, when you're a rider bicycle, that's it. Literally, I'll have like three sets of clothes. I'll have a jacket in case someone turns up for a meeting. I've got my rain jacket in case I have to nip out and get, and I've got my, Trousers in the event that, the rain splashes are so much. I'm going to muddy my trousers.

Sumira:

a skill, to be honest, to navigate this weather and especially as a cyclist.

Paul:

I mean, one of them things now it's like torrential rain now. It's not just navigating floods. they're the things just do things differently. I remember when I drove my car into the wall and got rid of it because I got arrested and it got attacked and police knew me in that car all the time when I was about 17, 18. I got a bicycle and I'll never forget my colleagues going, What are you riding in a bicycle? You've got a book in your hand. What have you got in a book in your hand? What have you got a bicycle in your hand? It's like, like I'm going to college and I'm going to do this. These, my friends just couldn't actually understand that. they were like, what's got into you? I kind of felt like quite a little bit ashamed and embarrassed by that. But. As I started to do it more, met people doing that more often, I realized actually this is normal for a lot of people.

Hameed:

yeah

Paul:

you only get that by interacting and, meeting people doing those different things. So that's why I was like, get out there, talk,

Sumira:

Be authentic. Find your

Paul:

Yeah, find your people,

Hameed:

be authentic, network, and find your people. by finding your people, we mean find people that think differently, people that aren't afraid to step outside the box

Paul:

and through that you will find you.

Sumira:

that.

Hameed:

Oh

Paul:

been

Hameed:

okay, thank you so much for your time for appreciate this

Paul:

a wonderful pleasure as well.