Ronu Spirit

Episode 5 Exploring Afro-Caribbean Connections & South African Controversies | Ronu Spirit Podcast Live

• Ronu Spirit • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Join Hameed and Dr. Samara Farha in this Ronu Spirit Podcast live session as they dive into pressing topics surrounding Afro-Caribbean connections, the desire for economic independence, and the controversial issues in South Africa. They discuss the idea of Caribbean migration back to Africa, the history and economic challenges both regions face, and react to the backlash from a previous episode concerning xenophobia in South Africa. Live guest Charlie adds insightful contributions to the conversation, making this episode a dynamic and thought-provoking dialogue on African empowerment, history, and future directions. Tune in to deepen your understanding of these complex and crucial issues.

Hameed:

I feel like Caribbeans do understand that Africa is where they originally came from. and some are even interested in migrating back to Africa and living there. It would be nice if there was a way for the Caribbean islands to also be wealthy and. be in charge of their own wealth, their own resources, I'm hypersensitive to when I see in Africa, white people kind of looking like they want shit again. it triggers. maybe I get super defensive about it, maybe I get, like, what are you doing here? I don't like this. However this came to be, I don't like it because this is reminiscent of what has happened before.

Sumaira:

Yeah, history repeating itself

Hameed:

Charlie said first, don't know who Sumayya is, sorry, Sumaira, you have to introduce yourself Sumaira. Sumayya. Sumayya.

Sumaira:

I,

Hameed:

I start?

Sumaira:

yeah, you should, I think.

Hameed:

Okay, fine. hey guys, I'm Hamid and been doing the Ronu Spirit Podcast podcast for a while now. And now we're going live because I just want to connect with all the people, anyone that's been watching the podcast and keeping up to date with the conversations I've been having with, our guests and, Dr. Samara Farha is my friend. She's also my clarity coach and, Samara, please introduce yourself.

Sumaira:

I'm a clinical psychologist. I have a specialist interest in, culture, acculturation, trauma, identity, everything in relation to that.

Hameed:

Charlie says, your name is Hameed. What does Renu mean? Yes, my name is Hameed Charlie. It's a pleasure to meet you. Renu is Yoruba for think. So, Renu spirit means the thinking spirit. That's what it means. thank you for asking. Appreciate it. All right. what is the point of us going on live today for fun? Well, firstly, I want to connect with, those who have been watching the series that we've been putting out. And then secondly, I just want to recap on the three episodes that we've put out so far, not three, four, the four episodes that we've put out so far, and just, recap everything I've learned and see if anybody have any questions. I know there were a few clips that were put out that was controversial, I wanted to explore that as well. that was the main reason why I'm trying to do this live, right, Samara?

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Is there anything else I missed out on we wanted to achieve with this, why we're doing this live?

Sumaira:

no, I think the entire podcast is, a learning process

Hameed:

that's a very good question. what are we learning about?

Sumaira:

you're asking me.

Hameed:

fair enough. yes, it's a learning process. You're right. the entire podcast is a learning process. And what I'm trying to learn about is basically the best way To empower Africans, in general and help to increase the global respects for black and African people globally. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that and just have an interesting conversations with people on how to do that. continue Samara.

Sumaira:

I was just saying it's a collaborative learning space. And I guess what's different about this is that there's a bit of a debrief every three or four episodes so that we can encourage for more engagement and more conversations, meaningful conversations around the Ronu Spirit Podcast. although Hamid, you're at the forefront of this and I'm kind of like a sounding board clarity coach, we also want to get other people involved, right? Because the whole idea is if we're wanting to empower people, then people need to be involved.

Hameed:

definitely. We get other people involved, which is why I'm so happy that Charlie's here to join us. he actually asked another question. He says, I have a question about what a healthy relationship between Africa and Caribbean would look like to you guys, because Dangote and Wadimaya went to Grenada recently. Seems interesting. Oh, Yes, I actually watched a Wodemeyer video recently, the one about South Africa, and I want to discuss that one actually, Samira, I want to discuss the South African one with you. and I know Dangote is out here building an oil refinery, but I did not know that he actually went to the Caribbean. He went to Grenada recently. Interesting. the question is, what does a healthy relationship look like between Africa and the Caribbean? Huh. Any thoughts on that whilst I think do you have any thoughts on that Sumera?

Sumaira:

no I was just thinking that the whole idea about this podcast is to explore, lots of different things. And I guess this is one of the things that I feel we should be able to explore whether we can answer that question today or whether it's something, that's part of our RONU. Spirit podcast journey you know,'cause we're both learning and I don't know if I know enough to be able to say what a healthy relationship between Africa and the Caribbean would look like.

Hameed:

was actually wondering If there's a way for me to invite people onto this live so they can ask properly, like actually be a part of the conversation if they want it to be a part of the conversation. what do you think about that?

Sumaira:

I think if you were to do like a TikTok live, I know people are able to join parts of those conversations, but not through this platform.

Hameed:

I'm sure there's a way I just need to figure it out. but yeah, a healthy relationship between Africa and the Caribbean, the relationship currently is not healthy. is it not healthy, Charlie? Is that what you're saying? Do you think it's not healthy? And what do I think? Do I think it's a healthy relationship right now? I don't know. I think it depends, you know, I feel like there are some Caribbeans that I meet and they really are with Africa, they love it and they're with it. I don't think I've met any that actually are trying to deny Africa right now. it just depends on the people you hang out with, but I feel like Caribbeans do understand that Africa is where they originally came from. and some are even interested in migrating back to Africa and living there. It would be nice if there was a way for the Caribbean islands to also be wealthy and. be in charge of their own wealth, their own resources, everything basically, right? that's what I'm thinking, but I don't know if the relationship is unhealthy. Charlie says, or the Grenadian PM went to Nigeria and visited Dangote, or one of them. Oh, I'm just interested in seeing what the future has for Both regions, to be honest, in my opinion, I would say that the thing that both regions have in common is the fact that, they are still more or less, well, how do I put this in a delicate manner? This is why you're here, Samara, so I don't say something offensive, but they, both regions are still more or less subordinate to the Western world. with regards to economic reliance, they don't have economic independence, and they're not self sufficient. that's the main thing we need to fix, right? We need to fix that because if we can't do that, then we start having our own voice and we start being able to do what we want to do. But in order to fix that, we need to come together and I don't know what the history is like in the Caribbean, I'm ashamed to say that I don't know as much, but I know that in Africa, whenever there was a leader that would try to come together and bring the people together, that leader would get taken out. by the Western world, by the CIA, by, you know, Belgium, France, UK, Ibrahim Traore right now. He's only alive because of Russia. do you know about Ibrahim Traore, Samira?

Sumaira:

I don't think so.

Hameed:

Ibrahim You don't know about Ibrahim? Wow. Okay. So Ibrahim Traoré. he is the president of Guinea Bissau. Yeah. he's in his thirties. And I think I read somewhere or saw it on TikTok that he's survived like 18 assassination attempts recently. is a military guy recently became the president of Guinea Bissau and he's been making all kinds of. Changes to Guinea Bissau, that the French are not so happy with, and he walks around with a gun on his hip, wap, he survives so many assassination attempts, and I think the only reason he's actually still alive is because, he's on friendly terms with the Russians, I personally feel like the Russians are the only ones keeping him alive. he's making a lot of changes. they're starting their first gold refinery, in Guinea Bissau. Whereas before they used to have other people do that. They're not doing it themselves. what else has he done? Man, now I have to pull it all up. You know what? We're on the internet. Why not pull it up? In the meantime, can you see what Charlie's saying?

Sumaira:

She said, I'm just interested in seeing what the future has for both regions, to be honest.

Hameed:

What else?

Sumaira:

And then the AU plus carry com. And then Ibrahim Charles the coup master?

Hameed:

The coup master.

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Yeah?

Sumaira:

Coup

Hameed:

Yeah, but that's a French word, isn't it? Coup d'etat.

Sumaira:

is it?

Hameed:

Yeah. It is. I'm searching here trying to see all the different changes that Ibrahim has done, because I come across them on TikTok all the time. it's like, Oh, we're getting rid of this. And we're now going to start wearing our own native clothing in schools. we are doing all kinds of different things, basically. What else did he say? there was a goal thing. There was a language thing he's trying to change the language from French to something else, but obviously still speaks in French because they were a French colony. yeah, I'm reading online right now. should I share what I'm reading? Yeah, why not? Let's do that. So here, look, Sumail, here it is. this is Ibrahim Bukinafaso. Oh, it's Bukinafaso. I was thinking of Guinea-Bissau this whole time. God we checked it out. Yeah.

Sumaira:

it's good that you looked it up, isn't it?

Hameed:

yeah I was just going through this trying to read all the different things that's been changing lately. I don't know why I said Guinea Bissau I feel so bad. but yeah, I'm looking through here and this is the part where I was talking about the Russians. External players, coup d'etat got the attention of the Russian foreign blah blah blah. Campaigns were linked to the shadowy Russian mercenary. These account for most diverse events. where is this from? Like, what link is this?

Sumaira:

You clicked on it, so.

Hameed:

Yeah. so yeah. Anyways, it's saying this accounts for more blah, blah, blah. Aiming to boost support for himself. Immediately following the coup, Trowery trained the sides on capturing the anti French sentiments. He blamed the French for many. Interesting. So I'm guessing this particular. Site is not happy with it and, thinks, is basically painting Ibrahim as a coup master, just like Charlie said. Russian mercenaries have been providing support, protection for Traue and reportedly supporting operations near the border with Mali. However, only some 100 to 300 Russian forces have gone to Burkina Faso. This suggests that the focus, blah, blah, blah. Okay, cool. So, that's who he is. He is He's just a big deal on TikTok. and a lot of, a lot of Africans and black people are like, finally, we have a leader that's standing up to the West. obviously the West doesn't like that. And I'm guessing this website where I got it from, which when I share, I should probably just share the entire window to be fair. So I'll just do that next time. So we can see the link that I got it from and everything, is thinking the same thing. Charlie says he has Sankara type energy, but I doubt him because military rule isn't good. Yes, I do. I do agree with that actually, because, I mean, so far it looks like he's doing good things and is able to make all these changes and everyone's like, how is he doing this? in my head, I was thinking, first of all, isn't he a military guy? how does he know how to put all the systems in place? Right. We don't know what the future holds. but at the same time, I feel like Africa just needs the African nations. We don't necessarily have to do things the same way the Western world I've done it I really hate when they try to go around promoting this whole democracy BS and then they use it as a excuse to, change regimes or something that benefits them. but like when I look at how the Chinese did it, they didn't necessarily do it. using the same method that the Western world used. So I'm not necessarily against what Ibrahim is doing. In fact, right now it looks like it's doing good, but we can't say if it's always going to be good, we just have to wait and see right now. I literally don't have an answer. I literally don't have an answer. But go Sumaira, you had questions for me, didn't you?

Sumaira:

Well, before that, I think Charlie's asking, what religion are you all? But I'm just curious to know where Charlie is from and if he's listened to our podcasts.

Hameed:

that's a good question. Ah, I like that. Yes. So we will answer your question if you answer ours. yeah. that's a very good question. But yes, continue Sumaira. When Charlie answers our question, then we'll answer his, but yeah, go on. I know you had questions for me.

Sumaira:

Questions for you.

Hameed:

not really questions for me, but let's talk about the past three episodes, right? The past four episodes that we've done and we've put out.

Sumaira:

Are we doing three or four?

Hameed:

Why not just do four? Because we recently put the fourth one out. we'll start with three. If we have time, we'll do the fourth one. Why

Sumaira:

Yeah. I mean, to be honest, there's no like, you know, structure per say. I don't know how many people have joined this live so far.

Hameed:

How do I check?

Sumaira:

I don't know. I guess if you look at it through your phone, maybe you might be able to see,

Hameed:

Okay, hold on. let me do that. I'm going to go to my phone and try to see how many people.

Sumaira:

Charlie, are you able to say if you listen to the podcast at all, even if it's just the highlights?

Hameed:

fair enough. it's only five. it's only five people watching, so it's fine. yeah, I'm on it now.

Sumaira:

Okay. Including me, there's five people.

Hameed:

so I'm the only one talking.

Sumaira:

We like you, Charlie.

Hameed:

Yes.

Sumaira:

so

Hameed:

we

Sumaira:

good.

Hameed:

You know what, lemme see if I post on here, if it's gonna show up. Hello? Ronald Spirit here?

Sumaira:

Yeah. I guess the purpose of this live is essentially like a debrief. so it's amazing to always get, relevant new questions in relation, to. your endeavor basically on this platform, because it then means you can try and find out these answers and get different opinions, like Charlie's questions, for example, right, as food for thought. And you can explore that in more detail and Charlie can come back and you can have a stronger conversation about it. but when it comes to just starting this, we initially started this podcast with a sort of soft launch where we went on live and spoke about some of your motivations for starting run a spirit and kind of what you anticipated from it. for four kind of releases. in how are you feeling about running spirit? Just generally, let's just get a general understanding of your experience so far.

Hameed:

How am I feeling about it? I'm feeling like I'm starting again. When I started this thing, ah, said I've been subscribed since you were in shades talking about African history with those cartoons. Ah, thank you. Thank you, Charlie. I was literally just going to talk about that. they're not cartoons, animations. I guess they're cartoons to be fair. What was the question again? Sumaira Sorry, I got distracted.

Sumaira:

This is why I'm on this podcast to kind of help haahah Hameed stay on track. Clearly it's not working today, but it's fine. we can. blame it on external factors. I was just saying, what is your general experience so far for podcast release in? How are you feeling about Ronu Spirit and your learning experience so far? Just like a general.

Hameed:

All right. For a podcast releasing, how am I feeling? I was saying that I feel like I'm starting again.

Sumaira:

Mm hmm.

Hameed:

I feel like when I first started this in 2018 with, with the Dr. Catel videos and the basic Nigerian history and talking about African history, by the way, I appreciate you, Charlie. you've been subscribed since then. that's a long time ago. when I first started this. It was just me doing stuff, regardless of who's listening and who's watching. I just kept going and I just remained consistent. And that's honestly how I feel again. I feel like I'm starting all over again and I'm just posting regardless of who's listening. I'm just trying to be consistent

Sumaira:

hmm.

Hameed:

Because I believe in the content that I'm doing. And when I say I believe in content that I'm doing. It's not particularly entertainment, but I feel like it's useful. And I feel like even if no one listens, and only one person listens, and it gets something out of it, then it was worth it. And that's the same mentality that I had when I started, Basic Nigerian History. I was like, if this doesn't go far, and I get like, You know, 20 views per video, at least those 20 people took something from it. So that's the same mentality I have right now with regards to this, podcast and how it's going personally. I feel like I'm learning a lot, but the reason I'm making it into a podcast. Making this conversations into a podcast is because I don't want to be the only one learning a lot. I want everybody else to be learning with me. yeah, it might take a while, but eventually it's going to get there. I feel like if we just keep going, it's going to eventually start having the effect that I wanted to have. So right now I'm not having the impact that I want to have, but that's fine. I'm not worried about it. Taking it one day at a time.

Sumaira:

Yeah, what are your hopes in terms of when you say I'm not there yet with the impact? What's the ideal when it comes to Ronu Spirit?

Hameed:

the ideal would be, Ooh, strongly recommend learning Caribbean history. It's fascinating, especially from post slavery to independence. Yes, I've heard a lot about it, Charlie, especially with the, what's his name? The Haiti guy. I've forgotten his name. the guy that fought for independence for Haiti. and yeah, it would be interesting because that's actually something that I don't know a lot of.

Sumaira:

wait. Before you continue,

Hameed:

Yeah.

Sumaira:

it would be great if Charlie has any recommendations or anybody else who might want to even join your podcast so you can do the learning and other people can learn through that podcast too. But perhaps you answer the question and then go to the comments

Hameed:

I have a tendency to get distracted the minute it pops up. I just read it. what are you saying?

Sumaira:

Yeah. You were talking about, it's not where it needs to be in terms of impact,

Hameed:

Oh, you were asking me ideal.

Sumaira:

still very new.

Hameed:

Yeah. for me, I guess the idea would just be more people, following it when I say more people, I don't know, it doesn't have to be that many. If we just have like, in my head, I'm thinking having up to a thousand people a month listening. I feel like I would be satisfied thinking that, yeah, we're having the impact that I want to have, even if it's just a thousand people, and having people take part in the live. the plan is to do the live after every three episodes, right? And having people take part in the live like Charlie is. I saw his comment, having people take part in the live, like he is, having people interact with us and just, challenge us on live, question us, agree with us, whatever it is, just like, so it feels more like a community, like having that community happening, that would be, I feel like I would be having an impact then.

Sumaira:

yeah I guess essentially from us knowing each other and speaking about your vision outside of this live, the idea is that you do this learning alongside other people, but then that's just the beginning and you actually want to make practical changes

Hameed:

oh for for sure

Sumaira:

by obviously starting off with. and making knowledge more accessible. also, what we've learned through these podcasts is I guess there are very inspiring and influential people out there

Hameed:

Already doing stuff.

Sumaira:

who are doing stuff. we're trying to highlight that, but also there might be other people who have similar ideas and they can connect to that, which is why we link. The work of the people that we interview. Right.

Hameed:

For sure.

Sumaira:

yeah.

Hameed:

What I'm trying to do. Sorry, if I seem distracted is I was thinking this would be so good if we could also put it on Tik Tok, cause I'm really just trying to find a way to put it on Tik

Sumaira:

Charlie might know how to do it.

Hameed:

If you do try and help me out,

Sumaira:

as you can tell, we're very new to the world of podcasting kind of going with the flow. despite us maybe being perfectionists in other areas of our lives.

Hameed:

Speak for yourself. You're a perfectionist. I just jump in.

Sumaira:

not at all. We're going with the flow.

Hameed:

Yeah. All right. Sorry. Nevermind. Continue. It's not, I'm not able to get it. Continue.

Sumaira:

I wanted to ask you if podcasting so far has changed how you see yourself and your ideas. Have they developed? Like, are you Oh, okay. What I'm learning is sort of where I've always been, or has it really massively shifted?

Hameed:

I wasn't listening because of Charlie. he said, I don't know about the face grams, the intervals and the click clocks.

Sumaira:

mean, Charlie is making this live. So we thank you and appreciate you.

Hameed:

Sorry. What did you say?

Sumaira:

Sorry. I'm just reading the above comment.

Hameed:

What above comment?

Sumaira:

There's a comment above that one.

Hameed:

John Martin from Grenadian history. Victor Brown. Oh, he's talking about all the history. wait, are these people still alive or is it people we need to read about? Oh, no. I think that, and a YouTuber who's good at African history is from nothing. He'll be good. Yes. I am. That's actually a pretty good idea. You know, actually reaching out to YouTubers and just interviewing them. That might be quite interesting.

Sumaira:

Yeah, because I'm sure people are doing, you know, similar work. There's a lot of overlaps in what people are trying to achieve as well. So, to be able to connect just makes your endeavor more powerful. shall we move on to, the series?

Hameed:

Yeah, let's go.

Sumaira:

yeah. the first one, the first episode that we did, do you remember who the guest was?

Hameed:

of course

Sumaira:

yeah,

Hameed:

How could I forget aunti pat

Sumaira:

of course. Yeah. if we go through the podcast, was there like a most memorable moment or comment or learning experience that you had that sticks with you?

Hameed:

the most memorable learning experience that sticks with me? yes, but it wasn't during the podcast. It was afterwards seeing the people's reaction to it. It's the conversation we have with Awe, about South Africa and xenophobia in South Africa. when we had that conversation. Obviously, and we put out that part of the clip, South Africans got on us and they weren't happy. they ripped into us. So I was looking forward to a bunch of South Africans being fine into me.

Sumaira:

I'm kidding.

Hameed:

That's fine. I'm happy for them To just rip into me and, go at it. And I was looking forward to having a bunch of South Africans, be on this live to come at me and be like, yes, we found you. I'm just like, challenge me, and have a conversation. Cause I actually do want to learn more. And if I was mistaken, I wanted to explore that a bit more. but that was after the podcast, I wasn't doing it. Like when we were having the conversation, I didn't think, this was standing out to me. I would say the thing that stood out to me the most In the first three, so there was Aunti pat, there was, Awe, and then there was Bafo. I think it would be, Bafo's conversation about, the work he was doing in terms of fighting, writing about Zimbabwe in a positive way, even though the rest of the Western media was writing about Zimbabwe in a negative way, and How that started affecting the business, of new African magazine and how all of their big, large corporate companies that were paying for adverts were starting to pull out from, financing that magazine because he was talking about Zimbabwe in a positive way I would say that was the part that stuck out to me the most, because that was a clear example of coming up against. This glass ceiling of the powers that be saying no we are in charge here And this is what you do. you tell our story not yours

Sumaira:

Yeah. I remember when he said, we were looking at Africa, like, from a glass window. half full perspective and not empty

Hameed:

No, glass half empty and not full you mean

Sumaira:

half full, not empty.

Hameed:

really?

Sumaira:

Yeah. Quotation marks. he was trying to promote Africa

Hameed:

Yeah So he was looking at it from a glass half full perspective,

Sumaira:

Yeah. Glass half full. That's what I said.

Hameed:

Oh my bad.

Sumaira:

And you said half empty. I actually wrote it down.

Hameed:

my bad,

Sumaira:

and I guess for him using, like writing for him was his way of resistance, isn't it? He spoke about, his name, changing his name,

Hameed:

Oh yeah, that was interesting as well. he wasn't born with that name. he was born with, what was his name? Francis. he was born with the name Francis and

Sumaira:

he gave his self the name Bafo, which translates to warrior and using his pen

Hameed:

Oh, you remember everything.

Sumaira:

I take notes during the podcast, it does help even though I don't like listening back to my own voice, but the other thing, I mean, this might rejig your memory a bit, but I felt like. With Auntie Pat and Buffall that there were themes that linked, right? They spoke a lot about history being so important. And I think that has come up a lot in just general podcast recordings. I just wanted you to share your thoughts.

Hameed:

On history being so important.

Sumaira:

Yeah. Like it's coming up as a theme time and time again. And there's a reason for that, right?

Hameed:

I've kind of always known the history was important, which is why I started the channel on history. the question is why history is so important. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to sell it to people. Oh, Samara, you should do audio books. Apparently. Sorry. I

Sumaira:

Thank you so much, Charlie.

Hameed:

I'm still trying to figure out how to make it clear to people why history is so important. and because when I try to explain, talk about identity, I talk about self worth, I talk about, that background, having that knowledge of where you came from. what it does to you and how it helps you move through life in a more powerful way. But I feel like it's all intangible it's hard to get it across into someone's head without hard facts, when we interview these older, people who have been in the game, wiser, yes. This is why the people who have been in the game for a long time, much longer than us, and immediately they recognize the importance of history. and they emphasize it, but I don't know if it's just a Western way of thinking that I'm like, Oh, we need to have some numbers to back this up. We need to have some stats or facts to explain to people just why this is so important.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I think the idea is that the more we know about our past, the more we can have influence into our future, right?

Hameed:

yeah, but once again, I feel like that's intangible. Like, how do we emphasize that? it's.

Sumaira:

It seems like a given, but the fact that it comes up as such an important theme goes to show that perhaps we're not taking that so seriously. I remember Bafo saying something about he who controls the past. I think he quoted someone. It's in one of your, clips. Yeah, anybody could refer back to it. it's about how the past influences the present and the future. And I think auntie Pat said something similar.

Hameed:

Why don't we talk about the, the thing that, pissed everybody off online. The clip that pissed everyone off. I've been wanting to explore that for a while.

Sumaira:

Yeah. I mean, Charlie said, I think maybe if you relate the history to something the person is interested in, like using sport. That's a really good idea. It's true. Like people are not going to really be invested in their if they don't feel inspired to,

Hameed:

Okay. give me an example of that. Can you think of an example of how you could use sports and history I'm asking you Sumaira, from your prespective

Sumaira:

you're asking me, even though it's Charlie's idea.

Hameed:

Yeah. I'm asking you.

Sumaira:

there's different ways to do that, isn't it? Whether it's like using sports to connect and then have that conversation or using the topic of sports itself, like historically, where did the sports come from? How did it develop? key people, part of that. Help me out, Charlie.

Hameed:

Charlie can't help you. It's just me and you now.

Sumaira:

I can imagine it's a bit like you and I, you know, or people who study and have specialist interest in things. It's because we're passionate and interested in that, that we dwelled deeper into it, but not everybody is going to have the time and space to be able to do that. And I guess, Hamid, one of the reasons you have this podcast is that so people can be multitasking and actually not having to take out, specific time, protected time to just learn about history. Like they can have these conversations with you and I, for example. Yeah.

Hameed:

Definitely. I agree. this is true. and that is the hope for this podcast that we get to the point where we are interesting enough. That's another thing actually, Samara, that I'm going to explore with you whilst I have you here. I have been wondering if it's interesting enough. for the people, and if it's, if I'm actually covering topics that people want to hear about, because if it isn't interesting enough, then what is it that people want to hear about? How do we make it more interesting? That type of thing,

Sumaira:

I guess it is your journey too. So it has to be a lot more collaborative. Do you understand? It's about you in this process whilst also trying to help other people come along with you on this journey. I think it's always important to remember that too.

Hameed:

Okay.

Sumaira:

let me ask you, how do you handle feedback from listeners,especially when it's critical so we can get to the part that you really want to discuss.

Hameed:

how do I handle feedback from listeners? first of all, if I'm getting feedback from listeners, then that's a good thing because it means people are listening. All right. so I'm happy with the feedback. I try to keep an open mind because if it is constructive criticism, I'm not opposed to it. I've always said, I'm not doing this podcast thinking I'm the expert and everything. I'm doing this podcast, like I don't know much I'm here to learn and I don't mind. I've never been the type to be shy of asking stupid questions. So I'm happy to learn. And if I'm mistaken, I'm happy to be corrected. It's not a problem. I don't take it personal in any way, shape or form. Also I know the internet and I know how people get in the comment section.

Sumaira:

You have previous experience, right? From the Dr. Catel episodes, Exetra just general life on social media,

Hameed:

life on social media is just, it is what it is. handling feedback is easy for me, for now, at least.

Sumaira:

Yeah. You sort of expect it and you're open to it, which is good because that's supposed to be how people learn collaboratively, right? when I asked you a question about standout kind of memorable moments, you spoke about one clip in particular where you're speaking with Awe about South Africa. And I don't know if Charlie has listened to this cause I would really like. to know Charlie's thoughts as well. let's get Charlie involved. But then you mentioned something like, At the time I didn't think it was a big deal.

Hameed:

Yeah.

Sumaira:

anyway, it was South Africans in the comments, feeling some type of way because you said,

Hameed:

What did I say?

Sumaira:

did you or Awe say something about South Africa being xenophobic?

Hameed:

Yeah,

Sumaira:

I think Awe mentioned it actually. she said she wouldn't go there. Both you and I have visited South Africa.

Hameed:

yeah, but to be fair, I have only been there for two days.

Sumaira:

Yeah, fair.

Hameed:

but awe said, what'd she say?

Sumaira:

She says something about not going, wanting to travel there or live there

Hameed:

she was like, she feels at home in every country except South Africa. And I was like, why South Africa? And she's like, because it's xenophobic. And then I was like, whoa, okay, let's get into it. So we got into it, right? and the South Africans were not happy at all. they weren't happy. They were like, oh, is that what you're saying? Let me read some of the comments. Should I try to read some of the comments

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Oh, first one. This is ignorance. second one, Never been to South Africa. You're speaking on us as if you know us. and why we are the way we are. Pure ignorance. next one was South Africans not feeling Nigerian men does not amount to xenophobia. What? What does this have to do with anything? Okay. Basically, they were going in. when I saw that, first of all, it took me a while to realize that was happening because obviously we've been putting this thing out and no one's been replying. we haven't been getting that

Sumaira:

Limited interactions.

Hameed:

Limited interactions. Thank you for the way you phrase things. We're so professional. I like it. limited interactions it took me a while for me to see this happening. And then when I eventually saw it, I was like, wow, this is a lot. what I did was I went through, because I understand the way they reacted. And it makes sense because we didn't have a South African on the podcast to. defend. and, we were just talking and maybe we didn't challenge or push back enough on what I was

Sumaira:

I suppose we're having a conversation and what she said, like you said, it's, it depends on who it lands on. South Africa has had significant issues, right?

Hameed:

for sure.

Sumaira:

Yeah. being someone who hasn't had the experience of being in the country and like you said, not having a South African on the actual podcast to share their views made it seem like, a standoffish comment, like, not well thought out potentially,

Hameed:

I mean, it's fine if it's not well thought out, in my opinion, because, we live and we learn. well, to be fair. This is internet. Everyone has a short memory, I'm not surprised, but I was hoping most Africans would be on this live to properly discuss this thing and challenge us and really go

Sumaira:

but what do you mean by challenge you on the fact that it is, or isn't xenophobic

Hameed:

Well, they can explain why it is xenophobic because, some of the comments are basically saying that you don't know why this is the way it is. Some of the comments are saying, you don't know what you're talking about. some of the comments are saying different things. So, so if it isn't, why it isn't. If it is, then why it is, and we know that there's a lot of racial tensions in South Africa. the thing that Wode Maya just put out recently drives me nuts. what was that? It was the short documentary, Ovanio. in South Africa. I don't think that's a good idea at all. I don't think allowing that is a good idea. this is my opinion on this. people are used to the only way of colonization being a physical violent way to colonize, right?

Sumaira:

Yeah,

Hameed:

But there's also smarter ways to do it as a, there's economic colonization. And who are the experts in colonization the people that have been doing it? the people that invented it, I don't know if they invented it, but like they've been doing it for a long time and they've been successful at it. White people, Caucasians, they came into Africa, including the that now call themselves Afrikaans, Europeans, white people that came in to colonize South Africa. And now they've, been through descendants being descendants of a privileged individuals with money. They've been able to buy private land, create a town and say, this is only for Afrikaans. Basically, this is only for, white people that colonized you guys in the past. Only us can be here. And,

Sumaira:

Afrikaans because it's interesting if you've watched, I just recently watched it from your recommendation through you, but, did you go through the comments? I thought they were quite interesting.

Hameed:

I went through some of the comments, but not too much because I was just annoyed at the whole situation. I was annoyed that the South African government was even allowing this. that was annoying.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I think, the YouTuber, I haven't come across him before.

Hameed:

Wode Maya

Sumaira:

Yeah, I don't, I'm not,

Hameed:

Oh, yeah. Cause you PhD. Okay. I get it. Yeah. You don't get to have a life.

Sumaira:

I don't go on YouTube that often, like recently anyway, but, I think he did it very well, very sensitively. credit to him for the way he created this 30 minute documentary on Orania. Is that how you pronounce it?

Hameed:

Yeah. I think he did it very well. I still think it's a stupid idea that South Africans are allowing this.

Sumaira:

Do you think they're allowing it?

Hameed:

yes, because the South African government. is the one that's allowing them to say, you can't, imagine it's like a bunch of Nigerians coming to flipping Sweden or the UK. Okay. There's a bunch of Nigerians coming to the UK, buying land in a particular part of London and saying only Nigerians allowed here. What?

Sumaira:

isn't it? He made that point, in the actual documentary, exactly the same thing. But if we went to Europe and did the exact same thing, it wouldn't really work, would it?

Hameed:

no, it wouldn't, because no country is stupid enough to let that happen. South African government is allowing that to happen, right? I think they're inviting danger. I think this is going to be a problem because when I watched that documentary. the Iranians were saying, we don't want handouts. Cause I think there was a thing about Trump wanting to give them aid or something or whatever. And they were like, we don't want go

Sumaira:

refugee status, or, like, if they wanted to leave,

Hameed:

Yeah. Refugee status. they were like, we don't want handouts. We don't want any of that. What we want is independence. I'm like, what's independence. So literally South Africa is now. These people want to create a micronation within South Africa. They want to, from within South Africa, they want to create their own nation. And then what, expand out? like, you know, when you think about Israel and Palestine, it wasn't always just violence. In the beginning, it started off with, the people that would become Israelis buying up Palestinian lands for cheap, right? and it started off with economic colonization. And eventually we got to where we are today. If you are allowing this, you're just inviting danger into your country. That's the way I see it. if this, these people I've already made it clear that what they want is independence in someone else's land. They basically want to, they want to create their own space in Africa. That's wild in any way, shape or form that you slice it. That's just wild. it's like we belong here. Our general, we've been here for generations. Yeah, but South Africans are still here. This isn't your land. you can live here and be a citizen of South Africa, but saying you want to now create your own land on someone else's land, like your own independence, nation, I think it's dangerous. I think it's silly that South Africa is allowing it. And I don't see this ending well, if they don't put a stop to it quickly. That's my opinion.

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Oh, Charlie has opinion about it.

Sumaira:

yeah, I think the same things pushing xenophobia in South Africa are the same factors. Oh, it's moved for me pushing xenophobia in America. I think Orania is fine to be honest. It's in South Africa's constitution that each ethnicity can have their enclave. Afrikaans are indigenous. Like, yes, they descended from Europe, but they've been in South Africa for as long as Europeans have been in America. there was a similar comment on the video as well. Like it's not people were separating like this is preserving the African culture and a regular white English person couldn't just enter and live there too. Trying to make that separation.

Hameed:

I still think it's silly. I don't support it.

Sumaira:

Yeah. I thought it was interesting.

Hameed:

I don't know w if Charlie's from the States. Imagine if the black people who have been in America for how many years? African Americans, how long have they been in there? And then they create a land and then they buy their own. Even when Americans, African Americans were trying to do the Black Wall Street, you see how the white people just demolished that real quick. Like, fuck out of here. And they weren't even trying to say, white people can't come in here. That was not explicitly said, right? So imagine African Americans trying to do that in the States. That would never stand. like what, so I can't come in because I'm not African American. This is an African American only place. that wouldn't stand. Now he's saying that South Africans have a law that allow ethnicists to do this. Right. Okay. But I feel like that law is a problem. the reason I feel that law is a problem is because Ovanians are saying they want independence. They have their own currency.

Sumaira:

self sufficient.

Hameed:

It's cool if they're self sufficient. It's cool. But what I'm saying is that they want independence. This is a problem for any nation. Any, if any nation was allowing this would be a problem for them because if they want independence, then this is a problem because this is how wars start, basically. It's like, you are allowing this to take place, even in Nigeria, there are places like, obviously, you know, it's a diverse group of ethnic groups. There's Yoruba, Igbo, Ausa, Istikeri, Edo, all kinds, right? And these places, are mostly either Igbo or mostly Yoruba or mostly this or mostly that. But if they started saying, you can't come here if you're not Igbo, for example, and made a thing about it, that's what led to the civil war in Nigeria. this is how war, this is how wars begin. what did Charlie say? He says there's a secessionist movement among African Americans called the Republic of New Africa. They will never get independence. It's not plausible. It's like Texits or Calixits. They'd get flattened by S A D F if they tried it. What are these things that he's saying? I have to Google them now. Goddamn. Sumaira you go, whilst I do all the Googling.

Sumaira:

I just found the dialogue underneath the documentary, the comment section quite interesting. And even people saying not only complimenting obviously how it was done,

Hameed:

Oh, for sure, how it's done is impressive.

Sumaira:

but also how people were saying, there's a difference between a bit like what Charlie said, they're trying to preserve their Afrikaans culture. They kind of have been there since the 16th, 17th century. And other people are saying, well, other communities can learn from this.

Hameed:

For sure.

Sumaira:

you know, it was quite balanced. I was surprised, like in terms of the commentary underneath it, it was quite, I found it very interesting. Obviously it still doesn't sit like it's, there's still an incongruence with that. Like, I don't fully, I mean, some of their ideas and some of the things they're saying are very plausible, but other things I'm not really quite sure about. One, the independence

Hameed:

yeah.

Sumaira:

on South African land.

Hameed:

I completely agree with you when we talk about, I was Googling everything that, Charlie was saying, Texas. I didn't know about any of this, by the way, this is all new to me. Texas secession movements. We have the Californian, independence, like, all these people try to be independent. It's crazy. But, um, I

Sumaira:

I don't, I wouldn't think this was the first time for sure.

Hameed:

I definitely agree with you when you said that, how they did it is impressive. yeah, it is impressive and I, like everything they're saying in the comments about, we could learn from this and da, I do get that, but a part of me also thinks maybe,

Sumaira:

This is the beginning of something not so great.

Hameed:

I know that, but when I'm thinking about how they achieve that and everything, it's a little bit, if we just think about how people are in general and the fact that, there's only a few of them and that unifies them even more because they feel like, there are a few of, there are a few Afrikaans in South Africa, and they already have the wealth and the privilege I'm not taking away from the hard work that they did, but everything, it comes from, it comes with privilege. if you weren't in a good place to begin with, you would not be able to think about putting something like this together. Right. And what people forget is that the foundations in these African nations that are so flawed with corruption or with whatever, that those foundations were created on purpose, to by the same Europeans who these people are descended from, right? they were, the cracks in our foundations were put there on purpose and were put there for a reason because it helps stop us from doing what it is that maybe some people like the Ovanians did. those cracks, include forcing together ethnic groups that weren't really together. and putting in unbalanced parts of the power. Those cracks include creating an extract economy and leaving it there and having all these institutions that are made for an extraction economy and just leaving it there. And obviously we have to take some culpability. Of course, I'm not absorbing us because I'll be the first to say African, a lot of the African leaders are messed up. they're really not it. it's like African nations, the way I see it, they're like ants in the world of giants. That's why I said, if I am Charlie could not do what he was doing without the backing of Russia, if he just tried to, if he just had to do that by himself in his own nation, France would have taken him out long time ago. If it wasn't France, it would have been the Europeans. Someone would have taken him out long time ago. luckily for us now, it's not just the West. We don't have to rely just on the West anymore. there's Chinese, there's the Russians. We would have to play them off each other, which is what some countries are doing, right. playing the Chinese of the Western world of, Russia and just trying to get the best deal and trying to rise up, but we can't, people need to understand the reality of the situation. and I understand that we do have co op leaders for sure, because humans are humans, and there will always be bad and good people, but you need to understand the foundations that we put in place.

Sumaira:

Charlie Said The YouTubee comments will give you cancer so be careful reading them.

Hameed:

Thank you, Charlie.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I just think there's interesting dialogue, to be honest, not even seeing, reading, people's opinions and perspectives. he'd like learning about the Haitian revolution and the divide between whites, blacks, and the mixed race population.

Hameed:

Interesting. Mixed race population. Yeah. I feel like we need to get more Caribbeans on the podcast. Sumaira.

Sumaira:

yeah

Hameed:

Cause I'd love to learn about the Asian revolution.

Sumaira:

We should get Charlie on the podcast.

Hameed:

Charlie seems to know a lot.

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

You never know. Charlie, what do you think? You want to come on the podcast?

Sumaira:

Yeah. you can remain anonymous, right? If you wanted to.

Hameed:

Could he?

Sumaira:

Yeah. Could arrange something

Hameed:

So who am I speaking to then?

Sumaira:

a bit like you and I.

Hameed:

that only works because the guest is there. people can see that I'm speaking to a guest and you just come in every now and then.

Sumaira:

Did you hear that Charlie? I just come in now and then.

Hameed:

no, you don't just come in and then you're very useful. and a very good friend of mine. I do appreciate you. I'm sorry, I'm trying to speak properly.

Sumaira:

its all good. I guess this is just us evolving because at some point we'll get to a live where we can live stream on all platforms and we'll have engagement from the audience. yeah, this is all trial and error for us right now. And that's not a bad thing. You know, give ourselves grace. Yeah.

Hameed:

Yeah. No, this is the, this is only the second time we've been on live. And to be fair, I'm going to take full blame, full responsibility for this because I was not that organized beforehand. I thought it was going to be a breeze. And then I forgot that I have to set up TikTok and Instagram and I forgot how to do Instagram. I don't know what's going on in my brain. it is what it is.

Sumaira:

I said, I'm not a good talker like y'all.

Hameed:

Yeah. You're such a good talker. Sameera. do you know something else I wanted to mention, by the way? when

Sumaira:

Samara demoted to guest appearance. Do you know what? I'm not in all of the podcasts, am I?

Hameed:

yeah, because life gets in the way.

Sumaira:

Yeah. we both do this in our free spare time in quotation marks, free space time. But, yeah, we have other things that we do. Sometimes our schedules don't match, but Hamid goes ahead and, yeah. it's great. we have some, really good upcoming podcasts. I'm looking forward to listening to them, myself

Hameed:

yeah

Sumaira:

and debriefing on a live with you again.

Hameed:

something else I was going to say about this whole South African thing.

Sumaira:

Go. Go ahead.

Hameed:

not just South Africa because I was in Kenya recently as well. and I think there might be a thing because of the history of black and African people. Right. of us being basically dominated. If we think about it, that's literally what it was. dominated through slavery, colonization, all this stuff. I feel like I'm hypersensitive to when I see in Africa, white people kind of looking like they want shit again. it triggers. maybe I get super defensive about it, maybe I get, like, what are you doing here? I don't like this. However this came to be, I don't like it because this is reminiscent of what has happened before.

Sumaira:

Yeah, like history repeating itself and

Hameed:

yeah, so it could have been in the most innocent way possible. like take Kenya, for example, Kenya has an area called Karen

Sumaira:

Really

Hameed:

Yes, it's called Karen. This is so silly. And it's the white settler area. it's outside of Nairobi. And when I speak to Kenyans, they're like, there was nothing there's like the land is not even that good, so they just bought that land. and, well, maybe they inherited that land or whatever. the border piece, they bought that part of the land, they're setting it up. There's not much going on out there, but they're making things happen. that's where the giraffe center is. They have like an elephant thing. It's just like, they're just trying to make. things for experts and tourists and everything like that. And when I speak to, Kenyans, they're like, they're not too fussed about it. They're like, they just bought that part of the, you know, it's not like an amazing piece of land and whatever. And like, they don't mind. But I felt like when I was there, I was hyper sensitive to the fact that it was just a little, it's just like a lot of white people and I just, I don't know, it's just like a thing deep inside. It's just like, oh, is it happening again? I don't know if you can speak to that. Your psychological mind what is that?

Sumaira:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm thinking that there's a lot of generational trauma, just generally from everything that has happened in the past. But as we have established, it hasn't really just, it isn't really a post, is it? Because it continues.

Hameed:

Eco

Sumaira:

in many different shapes and forms.

Hameed:

economic, Neo colonization IMF World Bank, they were just all forms of the same thing.

Sumaira:

if you're someone who has been impacted by this and it wants to make a change, but then you're reminded, it's like a trigger, isn't it? It reminds you that actually, this isn't something in the past that I need to move forward and recover from it hasn't ever ended. And if anything, it might feel like a sense of loss and control. as much as you're trying to empower people and trying to empower black Africans generally and improve the GDP of the country and do, doing your part, you're Hamid and there's systems all around you and people much more powerful and resourceful. And you're witnessing this with your own eyes. So of course it's going to trigger a part of you.

Hameed:

But not just me. I just met people in general though.

Sumaira:

Yeah. I related it to you speaking to you, but saying anybody in a similar position would feel quite triggered. Because it might seem innocent, like you said, it might seem innocent at the moment. And you might be foreseeing like, Oh, you're letting this happen now. But what does this mean for the future? Do we not see the patterns that have happened in the past? And what can happen in the future? And why isn't anybody doing anything about it? like, your alarm system is going on.

Hameed:

Yeah. And sometimes I wonder if I'm being hypersensitive to the whole situation, if I'm like, okay, maybe it's not a big deal that, white people are running Karen or I've been in this restaurant and the only blacks people I've seen are the one serving and I'm in Kenya. Everybody else isn't black. That's eaten. Maybe. Maybe that's okay. But I'm like, it's not okay though because it would be okay if Africa was on the same level as everybody else. But like you said, we know this shit is still going on. We know that. the world is still the way it is. We know that we are still at the bottom of the ladder. so to see that in the country, I just feel like, I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, I might overact them.

Sumaira:

no, I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. The difference is that, you're trying in any way that you can for things to develop and change. So the fact that this is part of you innately, you've always thought of, any form of injustice, as you said in your initial life, I think on your motivation of starting Ronin spirit as well. Something about just, I hate injustice. So you said something about it, like, you know, I want to do something about it and I think what people might do on a day to day basis is avoid because some people are just trying to survive. And some people it's all about self preservation. So they're not able to focus beyond, the self and maybe the people around them and what they need and want. Whereas, I'm sure they still get triggered. but for you, you're a lot more hyper aware because you're thinking about it. It inspired you to do Ronin spirit. You're trying to think, what can we do differently?

Hameed:

Fair enough. Anyways, it's all good. it's just something that I was thinking about. Thank you. I appreciate it. By the way, Samara.

Sumaira:

No, it's okay.

Hameed:

Charlie had a question.

Sumaira:

you think white want the colonial experience when they go on a holiday or move to?

Hameed:

Huh? When the gun holidays, Africa. I don't know what the colonial experiences. I would feel like The colonial experience is technically what white people go on holiday to Africa for if we actually deep it because the colonial experience, I guess, back then was like them saying, Ooh, exotic. Ooh, now we're in India now. And this is new. Let's go try the mangoes. Or, we're in China. Let's drink some tea, or we're in Africa. Let's go see the animals. And that's what happens now anyways. I don't understand the question.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I was gonna say it might be good if Charlie was to add and elaborate on that. Is it like, you know, some, like, You might travel and some people travel and they kind of immerse themselves in the culture of the country. And then typically there's always a space that is a lot more touristy and a lot more white individuals dominating that area.

Hameed:

Oh, in that case, I feel like that's just depending on the person. Right. That doesn't really.

Sumaira:

then I guess what can happen is that the catering changes and then it becomes the country catering for the needs of the white individuals who come there. I think there's a lot of conversations around people visiting Sri Lanka, for example. I've come across a lot of videos on, I don't know what the exact terminology is, but you know, trying to like in terms of tourism, but also toning down the culture for it to suit the tourists. I'm probably butchering like my entire understanding, but yeah, it has come up on my TikTok quite a lot.

Hameed:

you think some countries tone down their culture in order to better suit the tourists if they start relying on tourism?

Sumaira:

I mean, yeah, I wouldn't. I think there's a lot of conversations around that at the moment.

Hameed:

Yeah. That might be a thing, if it comes to go into a country and exploring the culture, I feel like that depends on the individual person because each person, some people just, I know plenty of black people that want to go on holiday and just stay in the resort, that's not me. if I go to a country, I want to live amongst the people and explore and see what's happening and so on. you know, mingle. but yeah, I feel like that's an independent choice.

Sumaira:

There's also conversations around going to like third world countries and then like the exploitation that might happen because you know what the country's been through and the impact and then you're trying to, exploit further when come from privilege.

Hameed:

yeah. Charlie's saying he has to go.

Sumaira:

we were supposed to finish at half nine. So, perfect timing, Charlie. Thank you so much for being part of our live.

Hameed:

Yeah. this was good.

Sumaira:

Charlie made the live, I think.

Hameed:

Yeah,

Sumaira:

come back again.

Hameed:

this was better than last time because It was just the two of us last time wasn't it?

Sumaira:

I think we had a few comments here and there.

Hameed:

Yeah,

Sumaira:

Yeah, maybe not as consistently.

Hameed:

this is nice This live we had three people next live. We might have four, oh

Sumaira:

I wasn't keeping, a track on the amount of people. So

Hameed:

No, I was being silly. I don't know how many people were listening

Sumaira:

But whoever's listening in the background, we really appreciate you and we hope that you're able to interact at some point.

Hameed:

we do. Bye, Charlie. Thank you. And yeah, I think that was a good live webinar.

Sumaira:

Yeah. I think this might be a good place to End the live

Hameed:

I agree. This is our second time. Third time's gonna be even better. It's gonna be on TikTok. I'll do better preparation. I promise. I will. Yeah, I just need to figure out TikTok all that.

Sumaira:

any volunteers, please feel free.

Hameed:

there's so much that I'm doing already. thank you. Anyone else that was listening, we do appreciate you. Like Samara said, thank you Samara for being so kind to the people.