Ronu Spirit

Episode 7: Exploring Africana Psychology, Identity & Colonial Legacies | Ronu Spirit Podcast

• Ronu Spirit • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this enriching episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, host Hameed and clarity coach Dr. Sumaira Farha engage in a deep and insightful conversation with Kawthar Ali, a doctoral candidate in counselling psychology. The discussion traverses a myriad of topics including Africana psychology, the intersectionality of faith and race, and the transformative journey towards reconnecting with one's heritage. Kawthar shares her unique experiences growing up as a British-Nigerian Muslim, exploring the importance of historical memory and the impact of socio-political contexts on black mental health. The trio also delves into the systemic issues rooted in colonialism and capitalism, the psychology of oppression, and the necessity for intentional learning and collective empowerment within the African diaspora. This episode is a compelling exploration of identity, resilience, and the quest for self and communal empowerment.

Kawthar:

when you look at like the Islamic scripture, you're not judged on your skin color. You're judged by your acts of piety. and Islam, is very explicit about that. even in comparison to other religions, very explicit. there's something where the Prophet Mohammed PBE says the Arab is not better than the black. why would someone leave everything that they have to risk coming here knowing that they are very likely to die at sea. Why would people be that desperate,

Hameed:

I used to be so angry when people would say go back to your country, or Go back. I'm like, you punks Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, where you follow my learning journey as I explore potential ways to empower African nations and address the legacies of colonization, as well as enhance the global respect for black and African people. My name is Hameed, and as usual, we have Dr. Sumaira Farha in the background, serving as my Clarity coach.

Sumaira:

Hello.

Hameed:

my guest today is Kawthar Ali. Kawthar is completing her doctorate in counseling psychology at the University of Manchester. She's interested in black mental health, the intersection between faith and race, and how it impacts our mental wellbeing. Kawthar was also the co-founder of the Alafia Projects, which is the first initiative in the UK focusing on providing mental health resources specifically for black Muslims. Welcome to the podcast, Kawthar. Heya Kawthar now in the University of Manchester. That's where I graduated from. I would say, oh, we are like un bodies, but she's new to nah, she's not, she wasn't in Macun when I was in Koon. Different koan

Kawthar:

different, different generations. I was back in Essex for my undergrad,

Sumaira:

Oh, I did my masters in sx.

Kawthar:

yeah. Then I was in Goldsmith there, here. So I've traveled about

Hameed:

What Goldsmiths? What's

Kawthar:

Goldsmith's in New Cross in London. Goldsmith, university of London. Have you not heard of it? Goldsmith

Sumaira:

was say Hamid. How do you not know?

Hameed:

I'm sorry. I'm not a university person. Like, I don't know why did you go to three units? You went to sx, Goldsmith and then, manchister

Kawthar:

is where the money is at, where the opportunity takes me. That's where I go.

Hameed:

So to be a psychologist, do you have to do three degrees cause Sumaira you have like 16 well?

Sumaira:

Well, that's a different story. route was zigzag.

Kawthar:

yeah, Marie was zigzag as well. but you have to do the, a professional doctorate in order to qualify as a counseling clinical health act. So most of them, you do have to do a professional doctorate, but the journey to getting there is different for everybody. that's why some of us have masters, some don't. Some of us have this, some don't.

Sumaira:

Yeah. you could do undergrad, get some experience, and then get onto the doctorate, although it's more likely that you'd probably get a master's in between

Kawthar:

because

Sumaira:

not straight forward, is

Kawthar:

yeah, because it's very competitive. Essentially what is on paper it says, do an undergraduate in psychology. Then get two years experience and get onto the doctorate. But most people's trajectory is not like that because it's so competitive. So most people end up doing other things along the way in order to get there.

Hameed:

I see. So you did your undergrad in Essex, then you did your Master's Goldsmith.

Kawthar:

yeah, did my undergraduate esx, worked as a research system for two years, then did my masters, then worked as a mental health advocate. I worked with people sectioned under the mental health act, then got onto my doctorate. yeah, it is probably like a span of 10 years, but they say it wasn't like back to back. It was like, Like work in, then do another course

Hameed:

is this how long it is for everybody

Kawthar:

No, I mean, for me, when I say 10 years, I was actually thinking about it the other day. I graduated from my undergrad in 2015, and by the time I formally graduate from my doctorate, it's probably gonna be summer 2025. It is not like it was 10 years between me getting, it was probably six years between me finishing my undergrad and getting on. But it's different for different people. Funny enough, I know clinical psychology, they have an alternative handbook and they have like the statistic stem and average I think is about like three to five years post finishing your undergrad. Some people is more, some people's less, but it's rare that people finish their undergrad and like immediately get onto the doctorate.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I was gonna say my year there was a 18% success rate That has increased to about 24 or more because they've increased the funding for, clinical psychology doctorates. But yeah, it's pretty competitive. And especially for, ethnically minoritized or just minoritized individuals in general.

Kawthar:

Definitely because most of us come from backgrounds where we don't have any psychologist in the family. We don't know anybody who's a psychologist. So I think when I look back in some ways, if I had known somebody or received mentorship earlier, I think my trajectory could have been shorter, even though, I'm happy for my trajectory because I've learned a lot. But I think a lot of the times is also about who you know, who to guide you, your uni undergrad kind of gives you the path of like how to apply for these jobs that open the doors to becoming a psychologist. I think a lot of people who are ethnic minorities have to figure that out themselves. And that is what, you know, it can make a big difference.

Hameed:

Yeah. that leads me to the first question because, some people will be listening to podcast and will not be seeing your face. let's about your origin and identity before we go into why, you went into psychology and what led you first, tell us a little bit about where you're from.

Kawthar:

I guess I would describe myself as British, Nigerian, Muslim woman. I guess sometimes, if I wanna go deeper than Nigeria, I'll say a Yoruba woman as well. but yeah, that's how I would describe myself.

Hameed:

British Nigerian, Muslim woman. And even deeper,'cause obviously there's a lot of different ethnic groups in Nigeria, Yoba, Nigerian, British Muslim woman

Kawthar:

yes. Which is how I actually met you. I mean, because I was going to a class To revive my yoruba. Me and my friend Cam pre covid.

Hameed:

Cam Cam.

Kawthar:

yes cam cam me her we were checking about London Trying to Improve our Yoruba

Hameed:

For those listening, I had met Kawthar, years ago when a friend of mine and myself, we started a Nigerian language speakers club, where professionals would come and just practice, speak their languages. And we had our Yuba, IBO and alsa, and it was called the earn circle. It happened at the African Center in Akk. it was once a month. I don't remember the exact date we did it, but yo, that was stressful to run. And to be honest, I only did it because no one else was doing it. I'm that crazy about languages, but I'm just like, why is no one doing this? And it's a nice space. I thought I would provide that, but I'm not the best at hosting because if people are not having a good time, I panic.

Kawthar:

I can't, like it never came across that way. You know?

Hameed:

really.

Kawthar:

I remember the fued, I remember the poppa? I remember the little snacks and I felt wasn't, yeah, it was a good vibe. I remember we had like these quizzes and stuff and you like I feel like you guys came across really well. It was really fun. that's how you were feeling. But it didn't come across that way to us. We were having a good time.

Hameed:

Yeah, thank you very much. Actually, the friend that I was doing that with Soto, the one that was, I'm doing the IBO part. He's the one I designed the t-shirt you talking about

Kawthar:

nice, nice, nice.

Hameed:

this Yocur t-shirt. So YOCUR is brand all about African heritage and being proud of it and all of that. that's why I'm always wearing this t-shirts when I'm doing this podcast. yeah, that's how we met. Now you having all these multiple identities, come on Sumaira, you're the identity expert. throw some interesting questions about all these different identities. British, Nigerian, Yoba, Muslim women.

Sumaira:

I consider that like tricultural in terms of like the richness. Like myself, I always say I'm a Muslim, even though I'm British, I think I identify more as a Londoner and Indian by heritage. And like you said, a woman also. and we talk about the intersecting of these identities, and I'm really interested in how we consolidate these identities too. So as a woman living in the West, as a Yoruba British Muslim woman I'm just curious to know how you consolidate your identities and has that changed over time?

Kawthar:

yeah. I think it's always been a bit of a struggle. I think when I was younger it was probably more of a struggle. I think. it's funny, I, I sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, the older I've become, the more, I feel like Afrocentric I've become, the more I'm really curious about my African heritage. I remember a few years ago I asked my mom like, we need to be speaking in Yuba more, like, we're always speaking in English while responding in English. Like pushed me to like, speak Yuba back to you. I think that maybe. There's been more of a longing to like, want to know more, to want to understand my heritage. and also I've been in the kind of intersections of all these identities. I think it's made me a very curious person because I've always observing certain, let's say family members or certain things. I'm thinking okay, why is this normal, for example, in Nigerian culture to do this or behave this way? And in British culture people don't do that it's always made me curious like, why do people interpret things in certain ways? Especially as somebody working in mental health. Why do certain kind of, even the way mental health issues maybe manifest and how they look in certain cultures versus other cultures? I think it's mainly a very curious person and I really love that. I think if I had just grown up in a homogeneous society, then I don't think I would be as curious.'cause everything would this is how people generally behave in X society. But I'm constantly observing and reflecting and contrasting and comparing between cultures.

Sumaira:

Yeah, so it's developed your critical lens as well.

Kawthar:

Yeah, definitely.

Sumaira:

like when you are speaking about the why's, and we are both in psychology, there's a lot of like, why do people do things from what lens? But, there is this theme. I think, Hamid can agree that the older we get, the more appreciation we have for our heritage identities

Hameed:

Why is that Sumara?

Sumaira:

well, it's just a hypothesis, but I think when we are younger, we're trying to make sense of ourselves and then we are living in this very individualistic western society and it seems quite contrast to our collectivist homes and maybe our religious identities. And we're just trying to fit in and we're trying to make sense. And what tends to happen when you're trying to fit in is that you assimilate rather than integrate. you think it's cool to speak in English and, oh, I don't need to know my mother tongue. languages are not important. And I think as we get older, that changes From our life experiences and maybe the reality that for a lot of us, we are treated as second class citizens or even third or whatever it may be. And I think there's a lot more now, like growing up, social media, there's a lot more about your identity and being able to integrate

Kawthar:

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira:

whereas I don't think in our times without giving ages away, but you know, we've all completed our undergrads and masters

Kawthar:

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. when I was younger I just wanted to fit in, right? I just wanted people to like me and to fit in. And if that meant, forgoing one of my identities, so be it. Like, to be honest, I really just wanted to be accepted. I think that, just through maturing. And also I think for me, literature has played a massive role. Like, I love reading and reading, certain authors, that just really made me feel a bit more proud about who I am and my identity and my blackness. And I think a lot of people have to go through that journey of learning to love themselves. And I think specifically for black people as well. I think blackness is something that even within ethnic cultures, people try and distance themselves from. So I think learning to kind of that self love journey, it's something that for me, built character made me think, actually, no, I don't agree with the kind of racist society generally that we live in, that kind of privileges whiteness over blackness. I was like, no, I don't believe in that and I kind of want to stand up for that, even if it's just within myself. But then even more importantly, also within my work as well as a psychologist

Sumaira:

definitely. There are two things. If I may, Hamid?

Hameed:

yeah, Go ahead.

Sumaira:

you said in ethnic groups, how black individuals are treated. And I just wanna say and just highlight the anti-blackness in the Arab and communities how there's still so much inner work we need to do within our collectivist cultures and how much colonization has influenced that.

Kawthar:

for me growing up as a black Muslim woman, within the Muslim community, black people are kind of a minority within that. I think there's always that, double whammy I think I face. within being a black person in the uk, there's issues with that. But then also within being a black Muslim, there's another level of that, as you said, Arabness for example, being looked at as the epitome and having to fight against that as well. there's always, there's kind of that double whammy, that double Minoritization that I think I face growing up and still face now. But now I try look at it more as a strength.

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

what was the second thing that you were gonna say Sumaira

Sumaira:

I was gonna say, just representation and having role models. you spoke about literature being something that influenced you, and I do think that is just a really pivotal point in the sense that maybe now, even now, people will struggle, especially in our field, for some people it's the first black or Asian psychologists they've seen. But just generally, I think we are not taught to celebrate our heritages enough. But once, like now people have what non bred hai latte and anglicized version, westernized version ethnic things, even our clothing, et cetera, even Afrobeats in terms of music genre and how like things are being celebrated. they weren't being celebrated growing up. And even now when it is being celebrated, it's not always correct. It is a bit more problematic, with the cultural appropriation rather than appreciation. that's also key, like being able to celebrate and have people to look up to, or not even people just,

Hameed:

role models.

Sumaira:

just role models or even like literature or something that allows you to also be proud of your ethnic identity as much as your nationality.

Kawthar:

I agree

Hameed:

Yeah, the first thing that I was gonna say was the thing about being a black Muslim in the uk. I don't know if we actually covered the fact that I'm also a Muslim. have we ever mentioned that on this podcast, Sumara?

Sumaira:

I don't know,

Hameed:

Oh, probably not, because I'm just so gung-ho on African, empowerment because that's like my number one passion, but Yeah.

Sumaira:

maybe name gives it away, that might not be the case. I dunno.

Hameed:

it's interesting that you say that, khawthar, the reason I didn't experience the same thing you experienced with regards to being black in the Muslim community is because maybe I didn't embed myself into the Muslim community as much as I'm guessing you did. because growing up in nij, I was a Muslim, but It wasn't everybody. Miami was black, so there wasn't different types of muslims it was just muslims Christians and everybody was black. And, that was when I went to Mosque and everything. It was more of a collectivist culture, like you would say, Sumaira it was more of a community. When I came over here to the uk, I identified more with the black community than the Muslim community. but I'm still Muslim and, my family's still Muslim and religion is a very personal thing to me but community wise, it wasn't as strong as the blackness that was the one that I saw that we were being penalized for, obviously it changed after nine 11 I start getting penalized for being the Muslim as well.

Kawthar:

Definitely.

Hameed:

but also I think because when people look at me, it's not so easy to realize I'm Muslim When they look at you,

Kawthar:

Yeah,

Hameed:

because of the hijab. you are the symbol of Islam

Kawthar:

Exactly

Sumaira:

black, Muslim, hijabi woman in terms like, when we are thinking about oppression in the society, who experiences it the most,

Kawthar:

yeah,

Sumaira:

need to be thinking about that.

Kawthar:

It's a good point.

Hameed:

with regards to interacting with other non-black Muslims, the only time I would ever interact with them was at Friday prayer or Eid Prayer if I'm interacting with'em outside of that, it's probably because they're my work colleagues. yeah. they don't have any power over me. There is no dynamic. There is no, oh, we know this better than you because it's just work. I'm a little bit curious as to how that feeling we are better than you, manifest in the Muslim community

Kawthar:

It's very interesting. you shared like your perspective before I answer that question, just to give a bit of background. So the way I grew up was, I think, quite different because if I think about, for example, my parents, my dad, he's an Imam, he was very religious. And then my mom, when she came to the uk, she rediscovered Islam even though she was born Muslim. she became quite more religious than the rest of her family. when I was growing up, I went to a Muslim primary school or a Muslim ary school. I was very embedded in the Muslim community because my mom really wanted to make sure that religion came actually over culture. she taught me the Nigerian culture, Yuba culture, but religion always took precedence. it was quite interesting for me'cause that kind of marked me, not just even in our family, that marked me as a, US as a bit different to even the rest of our family. And when I think about it, I think. Within the Muslim community is very interesting because on one hand, when you look at like the Islamic scripture, there's no doubt that Islam is very firmly basically you're not judged on your skin color. You're judged by your acts of piety. and Islam, I would say is actually very explicit about that. You know, even in, I think in comparison to other religions, very explicit. I think there's something where the Prophet Mohammed PBE says like there's the Arab is not better than the black. And this is, so there is actually like explicitly said, however, it's different what human beings decide to do, right? I think there's a tension in that because what I noticed growing up is people be like, of course there's no racism with Islam. and it's for some people, it leads them to take a colorblind approach. Like, we don't even have to race. We're just Muslims. Forget about race. You don't need to. But then the reality on the ground is that, Asian Muslims, who are the biggest Muslim population in the uk. I actually looked at the Muslim census the other day because of some other work I'm doing, and I believe black Muslims are about 10% Asian Muslims from the Southeast Asia, in specifically probably about 60% If I'm correct. So it's, it's huge, right? within their own communities, there's already anti-blackness anyway, whether it's through colonialism, through the cast system, through different things. There's already that. And then for some people they've never even knew that black people were Muslims as in when they first came to the uk, maybe from their parents. and again, people look at whiteness as goodness and pure, I remember growing up there would just be slight comments that people would make, whether it's about. just things about, kind of in a sense, like being lighter is better, for example, those kind of things. But again, people would just say as fact, they wouldn't even say as if they're trying to be racist due to them, is just, it's just a fact, I actually remember my first ever incident that I can think of, of racism actually, and I must have been in year one, and this child was even very, she was younger than me, so maybe she was four or five, and she must have said, you look like pew, or something like that. And I remember not really understanding what that was, but feeling really hurt, but not understanding and looking back and thinking, this child was so young for her to say that she must have heard something from somewhere around her. Right. I guess what I've noticed is, yeah, there's a lot of the times amongst, I would say, Muslims that are, really in the community. Sometimes what happens is like, okay, it's like an either or, right? we're religious Muslims, we don't need to think about race. We're all Muslims, Kind of forgetting the fact that in my opinion, you can have both. You can be proud of your black identity and your African identity and you can also be proud of your Muslim identity. And I think what has helped me again was like for example, reading the history of like the secretary and Timbuktu and like all of the things actually that Islam did bring to Africa that are actually really positive things. and learning about my history and doing that for myself because I think another thing is within Nigeria as well, there is a lot of even anti-Muslim ness in some parts because again, of the history of colonialism And the British came and saying that, for example, people were illiterate people, there were lots of people who were literate in Arabic. There's lots of people who could speak Arabic. And actually the Arabic script was used to write Yoruba and Haus and a lot of West African languages. But people don't know that. Yeah, it's called Aajami they used a script to write that. people don't know this. People are very ignorant. There was actually an article I read where someone was complaining that the Naira, Nigeria money has, the Aajami script on it. So it's house I've written with Arabic letters and someone's complained that why do we have Arabic condom this, you know, as Islamization or whatever. They were so upset and they're like, you do realize it's actually Hausa, people are so ignorant because there's Islamophobia. even a lot of people have absorbed that Western narrative of Islamophobia and are understanding their history themselves.

Hameed:

it is interesting that you share that. I think the thing with Nigeria is that, there's so much to but basically the way I see it Yeah. Is that there is division between tribal lines. Sometimes that bleeds into religious lines, and the people, the west are happy about this, they don't want that consolidation to take place when we talk about Islamophobia, yet, it is being adopted from the West. but then at the same time, I don't know who's behind it, but I feel like the Nigerian politicians aren't really helping themselves with, cause they're funding people like Boko Haram to commit acts of crime the Christians, it's like different puppet masters, manipulating the people into. Disliking one another it's very annoying to me. And it frustrates me a lot, especially with regards to religion is not an issue, has never really been an issue in, at least in Yoruba land, because we are like 50% Muslims, 50% Christians, so many of us have family members who are Christians, some

Kawthar:

Same here

Hameed:

who are Muslims, my friend just got married to a Christian and he's a Muslim. it's never been this divisive thing yet because of the, once again, it's just colonialism. What are we gonna say colonialism. It's the people that want to keep us destabilized that are fighting that are creating this distrust this, conflict constantly, between, religious lines, tribal lines, And It also, leads back to when the British were there and how they approached education in the north compared how they approached education in the south. in the South with how they approached education, it was free. they shared everything that they knew, everything that they had or whatever. And. Based on the rights that they claim. And then when the Nigerians in the South learned those same rights, they're like, well, based on this rights, you guys shouldn't be doing this to us. we're gonna rebel, based on the rights that you've you guys do in London. there were so many revolt, so many rebellions and everything, so many tax strikes and protests, and that when they started moving up and off, they didn't want to repeat the same thing. they were like, we're gonna take the strategy of warrant chiefs that they started using in the Ebo side. We're gonna take that strategy. a warrant chief is like, when they just basically pick someone and be like, you are in charge, right? you can mess your people over as long as you're good. We're gonna make sure you're good. That type of thing. it's like the same thing that they're doing to the Palestinians. You know when Hamas won the democracy election and then Israel shut it down and they like no, we want our own puppets be in charge And the aim of those puppets of up north was to give the British extract basically to extract from the north, extract all the resources and everything, and make sure the people don't get educated enough to wanna rebel or don't come together and do what was happening in the South.

Kawthar:

Yeah.

Hameed:

and we see remnants of that till today basically in Nigeria

Kawthar:

Yeah. Hundred percent. I think these things are important though to like contextualize why we have the situation we have now. Right? Because it's not random.

Hameed:

Yeah.

Kawthar:

certain instruments that have been put in place that have contributed to where Nigeria's out, where Africa's at the moment. yeah, it's important to contextualize it.

Hameed:

All right. you said that you were reading a lot of, literature, and naturally being of three different identities. You were curious, I'm guessing you read a lot of this literature before you got into university.

Kawthar:

kind of in, in the midst I would say in the midst of it, because I think actually it was when I was in university that I went through a lot of different transformations. I went through you could say a religious transformation and Like, just becoming more conscious, as they say, becoming self-aware. I started to kind of the classic stuff, like reading Malcolm X, reading France, Nan reading certain things, and they, it made me curious. And I think even before I went to uni, as I said, I started doing psychology A level, and I was just again attracted to write all these theories, explaining why people acted in different ways. I remember being really curious about attachment theory and going home and being like, mom, which one AM I? I was more curious about myself, first of all, to be honest. I wanna understand all my traumas and messed up stuff. And then I was like, Ooh, I wanna be curious about other people. through the uni experience and different things, I knew that I wanted to do something, to do with helping people, but I felt like there was something missing in terms of what is, what's the word? How does it look for people who look like me? I that is where I started to read about certain black psychologists and the work they did and different things and started to, okay, how does this apply to people of color? And also I got involved with Islamic psychology stuff and reading about the history of people that have written about things to do with CBT and things like that for hundreds of years before what we are told actually, in terms of the white western man that invented this stuff. But actually there's been a history of people talking about these things within the Islamic world, within the black world. I think for me it was trying to find a psychology that fitted more with me, because in undergrad it was just very, I dunno about you, Samira, but for me it was just very generic, very like psychology is very colorblind and it's just scientific. There's not really a lot of acknowledgement about how it looks in different cultures and populations. and that's when, as I said, I was really curious even about Yoruba words for example. And I was like, oh, how do we describe emotions in Yoruba compared to English? And does this impact how people look at mental health problems, for example? It was something I was really curious about.

Hameed:

Amazing. Wow. and one of these books that you were reading, you mentioned was called The Psychosis of Whiteness.

Kawthar:

Ah, Did I mention that today?

Hameed:

no, it wasn't today. it was, previously when we were talking

Kawthar:

think I referenced it, but I haven't fully read that book, but I was referenced in it. Yeah, it a book by Kain Day Andrews or something

Hameed:

Kaine Day Andrews Yes. you were looking at how psychology, Affects black people. and and first of all, you looked into psychology because you're interested in yourself and discover yourself. And then the more you looked into it, the more you're like, there isn't much for people like me. and, that led you down this road you started reading and, seeing more and being like, actually psychology isn't all western, even though it's portrayed as all the great psychologists are, white people, Europeans. and this is where it all began. You're like, we've been doing this from before than there's theory of it in Islamic culture. There's theory of it in black culture, What are some of these books that you can recommend to the audience,

Sumaira:

also any black psychologists like work to follow, obviously. You have to watch this space with Kawthar she is going to be a doctor soon, but anybody else that comes to mind

Kawthar:

Yeah, there's a lot of, really good people. There's someone called Naim Akbar, who I really like he's a black Muslim man and he was based in the States. he has lots of books. if writes name Akbar, they'll find him. but I love how he looks at mental illness from a very different perspective, the way he looks at mental illness is almost like how much someone strays from looking after their own. I'm gonna explain that a bit more. he has these concepts alien self disorder, anti self disorder, and things like that. in all those concepts, what he's trying to say is that if you are, let's say, you are a black person for example, and you're trying to assimilate to whiteness so much that you hate your own people and you are Doing things to destroy your own community. You have a mental illness. That's what he would argue that is not how we would think about it in a medicalized way, right? if you are doing something against your group, right, against what would be helpful for your community and for your collective, that from an African lens, you're doing something against the collective. You are not actually, well, you need help,

Hameed:

basically, Me wey be Bad Knock isn't well. Nope, definitely Hahaha

Kawthar:

I don't think she's def she's definitely doing well I just love how he looks at the lens of what is mentally well from a completely different way. cause I think that it's not just about, when people think about mental health and mental illness, they usually think about it from a very different lens, not from like a social lens and how somebody's functioning in a collective and in their society, right? So, as I said, all the Nigerian politicians and all of that,

Hameed:

they are not well!

Kawthar:

So they all see them. If they're not okay because why would you? But if you actually think about it, why would you do something? Okay. Obviously we know the benefits where you are richer yourself, you're richer your family, but in the long term, you are driving your country into more poverty and more and more people. you are moving away the human resources from your country, more and more people. it's a psychosis in a sense. It's a delusion because you think you're helping yourself, but in the long term you are destroying yourself and your own people, right? that is the lens that these black psychologists look at mental illness through. And I think it's like a social critique as well. if you think about it. that is one of the people I really like. Another person I like is Dr. Joy DeGruy or something like that. which I hope I'm saying her name right? she has a book called like Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome. And I think that is just a very powerful language in a sense. And essentially what she's talking about is obviously within the African American experience, how the experience of slavery, racism, and all the things that have happened has created, certain issues. instead of saying low self-esteem, for example, she uses the word vacant esteem, like believing basically yourself as a black person to basically not be of any worth. So therefore you might overcompensate if we think about the typical rapper, being very overly materialistic, getting a lot of women, you are overcompensated because you feel like there's something missing. You feel like you're not good enough, right? looking at these things, as I said, through, through a very different lens, can be really, really powerful.

Hameed:

I have two things to say about that. the first one was when you said, the politicians are doing something as their own group. They're not swell in their head. very true. very well, just wanted to be reaffirm, but they're Well, because funny, I was actually speaking to my friend recently, the same friend that designed shirt. and he was telling me about how, right now in Ghana, people aren't happy with the current, lead and president and everything in Ghana. And I was like, well, I haven't, you heard, I'm surprised you haven't heard about this. things like people are complaining that, I don't know what the problem is exactly. cause we didn't go too deep into it'cause we're too busy, can't find this party. but I get it about the corruption thing. You are taking money, you're enriching yourself, but at what point is enough money enough. And if you are doing that to such an extent that the entire country is feeling it and seeing it and like unhappy with you, then it's highly disappointing. Where are you gonna go afterwards, after you're finished in the office in the term, you're just gonna abandon the country and leave. are still gonna remember you for what you did. if you're messing up the infrastructure, you are gonna have to live within that infrastructure. Unless, like I said, you open and disappear. And Nigerians are big, really known for this. Like Nigerian presidents, they'll fly and leave the country get healthcare. Because they messed up the healthcare in their own country. it's just ridiculous. Annoys me. Annoys me so much. The second thing that I was gonna say that you mentioned and triggered something, aha. the Post Traumatic Slave syndrome.

Kawthar:

Hmm.

Hameed:

once again, conversation with the same friend. whilst we were driving somewhere, we had another friend who had come from America. He's actually Spanish, but, he's living in New York right now. And he came from there. somebody asked a question is it true that, the African Americans and the Africans in America don't get along? and we were trying to discuss it and trying to figure out why that is. me and my friend came to the conclusion that our cultures are so different. because technically African Americans. Their culture was taken away from them. They had to form a new culture. every time they try to form a culture towards something more positive, it would get destroyed black Wall Street, bomb that, you're trying to improve in this way. Bomb that, But anytime they try to develop the culture, something negative, they get encouraged by the people in charge. hip-hop started off as a positive thing. they never used to say the n word in hip-hop. first thing that said the N word was, you know, those black exploitation movies that it was taking advantage of black people America really loved that the whole of America and white people in America really loved But it, that was the first place that they started using the n word frequently. and hip hop was supposed to be something for positive, for political change. Fight, the power, it was all this thing to build a community in a great way and that would get shut down. But when it started being manipulated to be more about, killing each other and doing all that kind of stuff, suddenly the white people were cool with it. yeah. Let's do this more. Yeah, let's create a beef West Coast. East Coast, I feel for the African Americans, because. They were trying to create a culture on a people that really don't like them and didn't want them to grow and become anything America, as an institution. they had the FBI. They had all things they were looking down at the African Americans and they're like, we have to stop this. And they're the ideas of taxes by then, same Europeans from, Britain, Ireland, Scotland, anywhere in Europe. They're the same people, but like, oh, we're Americans now, but yeah, okay, fine. If you say so, but still the same people. you have all that knowledge of how to ruin people or how to build a good culture and how to build a bad culture.

Kawthar:

to add to that, There's two things I want to say. Like the first thing you measure about the Nigerian politicians and stuff, I was just thinking about, also imagine like you are participating in something that is creating a sense of fear also in society, right? if you look at Nigeria, there's a lot of lack of trust, obviously. Lack of security. most of the time when I hear conversations where, let's say, and I just tell you another address, something good that nah, are you sure? Is it true? Like, can it really, like there's so much doubt if you tell somebody like something good is happening or because there's so much, there is a kind of some, it is permeated through the society, the impact of corruption and all these things. It is made people not trust each other. It's not made people not have that faith in each other. within the whole society you can say that has been infiltrated with that psychosis in a sense because to have that cohesive society, you need to have trust in state. And once that trusted state has broken down, it impacts even on a, you know, not just a macro level, but a micro level as well. And in terms of the African American thing, it reminded me of a conversation I had with someone years ago, and this person was a Nigerian that had moved to the states we were just talk about African Americans and different things. And they said, oh no, they deserve to be in prison longer because they're naturally criminal. So Adam said, what did you say? I was so shocked. They said that Nigerian person that had moved to the states were was saying that African Americans deserve to be imprisoned for longer.'cause they're naturally black people are naturally more criminal. I was like, what? I think part of it is also when people migrate to another country, people wanna see who are the good guys or who are the bad guys. for example, within the uk, between us say Jamaicans and Africans and things like that, because people are like, oh, they're not being treated well. They're seen as them. We don't wanna be associated with them. By like, oh, we wanna be the good immigrant. We don't wanna be associated with African Americans.'cause they're, everyone else is telling us they're criminals. Or even within the UK I've seen that most Africans and Caribbeans, Caribbeans are like the, the bad black people. We don't wanna be associated. stay away from, you know, there's a very typical like Nigerians and, I think things have improved,

Hameed:

yeah, I think that typical thing that you're saying, you know how you said it's a very typical Nigerian thing. I don't think it's typical Nigerian thing. I think it's just because of colonization. we've been brainwashed to believe the white people are so much better than us and like the white people are the best. the remnants of that is why that Nigerian will come here and believe everything the white people say

Kawthar:

I completely agree with you. And that's the thing. I think it's because as you said. People, number one, they, when they go to a new environment, they want to survive. They want to thrive, right? They're like, this is not my land. And then you are told these are the bad people do so I need to assimilate more to whiteness. And that means distancing myself as, like I said, Naim Akbar was saying like that is almost like a anti self disorder. You distance yourself from other black people because you see that as pulling you down. And as you said, people have been so brainwashed that anything the white man says is true. also I don't know if this is true or not, but something I've heard from some Nigerian friends that have grown up in Nigeria is that a lot of them didn't really learn a lot of black history growing up. They don't learn. so some of them told me the first time that they didn't even understand, like they used to hear all these African Americans, they didn't actually understand what does that mean? These are people who were taking as slaves and what happened to them. it took them years. One of my films like, oh, like years later. Then she like, she said, oh, we learn Nigeria. All the good things that white man, he built the trains. He built the bridge. He built this.

Hameed:

They did. Mongo Pack they learn mongo pack.

Kawthar:

the whole education system. Nigeria still obviously the impact of British colonialism, and it wasn't designed to help to make Nigerians aware of what their histories make them proud of their own ethnicity and their own culture. I was reading something the other day that I was a, it was designed to serve them, essentially to serve the white man

Hameed:

it was designed as an extract

Kawthar:

economy Eactly. It was deserved to serve them and that this person was arguing that, oh, I wish I could, maybe I was send you the article afterwards, but he was basically saying that there's a difference between being educated and schooled, that I just are schooled, but they're not educated. you could go to school, but you are not actually. true education is when you are empowered to help yourself and your own people, and that is not happening. So there's a gap in people's of understanding, right? Because they're looking at African Americans and there may be for some people they're not looking at it through the lens of, okay, this is the trajectory. So there's no empathy. They're just like, wow, you guys like this? You are in America. You should, you guys should be fine. the a trip that is heard a lot is like, Nigerians are one of the most successful immigrant groups in America. if they could do it and they're black, why can't you guys do it? Actually, you don't have the same history. Nigeria's are coming from a country where everybody is black and they're coming to migrate, that's not the same thing as someone who can say, my great granddad was a slave.

Hameed:

yeah. And who went through this systematic racism institutionalized man, I cannot stand the states personally. There's so much. Oh. that place is almost like Nigeria. the corruption is actually pretty obvious in the states I would say the corruption is more obvious in the States than it is in Britain for sure. there are things that are so obvious and people just get away with it. especially when we talk about the police, when we talk about all these different things, it's just, ah, man, let not get

Sumaira:

usually where the more polite version like the British are, the more polite version of America essentially,

Kawthar:

100%

Hameed:

like, how can you have a privatized criminal justice system where they start using prisoners as free labor. That's just slavery And how can you have judges lying about something and then CCTV footage or body cam footage comes out from the police I'm talking about something that recent happened recently about a, black man that was deaf and had cerebral palsy, apparently there was a white man that was doing racist things, saying racist things. And the store called the police to apprehend this white man that was causing a disturbance. The police, two white police officers come now, they speak to the white man, and then the white man says, oh, some guy pushed me, some other black guy pushed me. He just punched randomly across the street they drive over to the street. And keep in mind this black guy is deaf so he can't even hear them They drive over, pull out and just start beating him up And they start tasing him beating him up and they're like, put your hands behind your back. You're the arrest. Obviously he is deaf. He doesn't know. He just sees people attacking he's, trying to run and punch him in the head like so many times. Tase him so many times. then. they try to say he was justified because he bit them. we see the body cam, we see them punching him repeatedly. We see that he's unable to speak. They saying, put your hands behind your back. Obviously can't hear it they're attacking him and he's just screaming and they keep beating him up. then the police officers still try to press charges. They press charges that e assaulted police officers, even though the body cam footage is clear. then they took this to the court and then the judge upheld that. And it wasn't until this thing came out to the public that they dropped all the charges. But I'm like, all the people that lied to get to that stage, still cool. Everyone is cool. The judge is cool. The police officer is cool. Everyone is cool. America's so madly corrupt. it doesn't, because no one, nobody got anything for that. It was just like, oh, we dropped the charges and I was okay.

Kawthar:

Wow. Wow. That is crazy. That is crazy. And I think it just goes to show as well, with it what you said, it also just emphasizes this, there's still this kind of, almost like visceral level of blackness. means criminal blackness means you fear just those associations that, the fact that the police could just go to him and just immediately,

Hameed:

yeah. in the States, definitely that association is extremely strong. That's why I'm so scared. I'm like, that's why I'm always like, I really don't like the states. I, feel like the association is extremely strong there. I mean, the association also exists here in the uk, don't get me but uuuh America is just another level'.

Kawthar:

Yeah. But I think it, man, I think it's almost like a spectrum, and I think it manifests in different levels, in different places. you just spoke about the states. Then, we're talking about Nigeria. On the other hand, that's a black majority country. But at the same time, if you think about it, there is something going on there again, people deserve goodness as well. Do you understand what I mean? we as a country, we deserve to have good things. It doesn't have to all be in the west.

Hameed:

I want that so badly. I want us to have good things

Kawthar:

You know,

Hameed:

don't wanna be cold country all the

Kawthar:

time you know, but that's the thing. It's almost like you are either rich enough to get out of Nigeria, or you're poor enough and you have to say, oh, you are super rich elite, that you are in that, Nigeria serves you. Exactly. You are in that top elite that Nigeria serves you. And people can afford to send their children for healthcare education abroad. It doesn't matter if the healthcare and education in Nigeria is not good. on the surface, we do the cultural things, and we're celebrating our culture and stuff, but to me, real celebration is where you empower your people. And if you're not doing that, do you truly love your people? Do you truly love your skin color? Do you truly love yourself? Do you see your people as worthy as a white country where their citizens get? I still think there's a level of self hate going on personally. It's just manifests differently in that context. obviously the way colonialism has affected Nigerian and other African graduates is different, but it's still within that spectrum, of that anti self and anti-black hatred and just not really seeing your own people, your own self as, as worthy

Hameed:

so interesting. I've never looked at the politicians as mentally ill, but the more you describe

Sumaira:

his gonna hold on to that that. But everything can be formulated right psychologically, hopefully people of the global majority. I think what Kawthar was mentioning earlier is that we are realizing that a lot of western psychology is just basically very Eurocentric and doesn't the global majority. what we're having to do is culturally adapt and also learn that some of these concepts were even stolen from like CBT. I think there's some roots in Afghanistan, mindfulness, I'm sure Kawthar can, reference quite a few things yeah, we're still people with dual heritage we need thing, conceptualization of distress will be different as well depending on if you're born and raised here or come from a different country. if we are thinking about, cause you reminded me when you spoke about Fanon. I'm a huge fan of Fanon. I referenced him in my thesis

Kawthar:

You need to know about Frantz Fanon

Sumaira:

Yeah, I've mentioned Frantz Fanon to Hamid many times.

Hameed:

Sorry, my bad. Who is he?

Sumaira:

Fran Fanon, he was a psychiatrist and he focused on a black individual's mental health I'm gonna put in quotation marks, decolonization, and the limitations of that, but his main concept is black skin, white mask. And he talks about black people have a divided sense of self behaving differently with white people than they do with other black people. But that's just like a very brief explanation. But he talks about, in terms of what we need in mental health systems to support people of the global majority. it is a bit of a heavy read, I would say it was a 19 something

Kawthar:

Yeah 1960s. And also he was working in Algeria when they were fighting their War of Independence with France. he saw a lot of trauma that was very much related to the trauma of colonialism. he wrote a lot about that. And also, I think he was from Martinique, which was a Caribbean island that was colonized by the French. And he like observed a lot about how people from Martine, what happens to them when they go to France like himself and what happens to their identity and this kind of wanting to be close to whiteness. And he looks at kind of really interesting stuff about like Interatial Relationships and different things and just how it manifests in different ways in the psyche. he's a really good read.

Sumaira:

Yeah, I was gonna say for the listeners, Fanon or I'm sure now that we have social media, there's people who are simplifying and making knowledge more accessible. another person is also dubois. I used his concept of double consciousness in my undergrad thesis, he looks at how black people are forced to view themselves through the white perspective, while also maintaining a sense of self. But obviously, we know it's harmful when it's unilateral and it's usually, people of the global majority, living in like as oppressed people in a quotation mark civilized society and how that impacts one sense of self as well. these conversations that we're having today have been happening for a very long time. I feel like Dubbo and Fanon, they have a lot of literature on this. I'm talking, I was referencing them in early two thousands.

Kawthar:

Yeah, Dubbo is super old. He's like early 19. He's like early 19 hundreds or something. I think maybe around a hundred years around that. He is quite old.

Hameed:

You guys are geeking out on psychology right now?

Sumaira:

hahahaha, but this is the thing. This yeah, it's psychology because psychology is in everything. A bit like Politics also,'cause my second undergraduate is actually in sociology. So introduced to Fanon and Deis from my sociology than psychology. But then again, they intersect. You can't have sociology without psychology. those are two concepts that, are widely known. And again, it all goes back to the impact of colonialism as Kawthar and her media self have mentioned. And a lot of what you were saying about the white being the best or western knowledge being the best is also other countries. I'm thinking about my own, in India, it's still the same ideas. I think they probably use a lot more Western knowledge. Why is it that when you go back home and you've got a degree from the west also you are valued more? They're really still stuck there. So whilst we're here trying to be critical, trying to diversify our knowledge or decolonize, always put that in quotation marks.'cause I don't think we can decolonize western psychology because it actually was very harmful at the beginning of, its like. Epistemological and ontological foundations of psychology are very harmful. It justified slavery. There's eugenics and the rest of it, but what we can do now is diversify. And the more people of the global majority we have in psychology, the more we can adapt and help people based on their conceptualization of distress rather than one model.

Hameed:

when you use words like epistemological and oncological,

Kawthar:

Hahahahaha

Sumaira:

Oncological, no don't even start Hamid with making me try to explain this to the listeners.

Hameed:

For the Listeners

Sumaira:

Google haha.

Hameed:

ok fine

Kawthar:

It's, hard.

Sumaira:

what is knowledge and how do we obtain this knowledge

Kawthar:

Exactly. Yeah. Just like writing my methodology, it's given me flashbacks on writing. My methodology chapter, my thesis, oh gosh. Headache.

Sumaira:

your ontological, epistemological stance

Kawthar:

mine is, so social constructionist, but with Islamic lens. I said, because there's been a big decolonizing movement, not also in academia, right? so a lot of people have adapted things. I used, someone that, has tried to use an Islamic epistemology. I combined them with a social constructionist approach. and I brought those two together. that's what I did, because it was related to my topic area.

Sumaira:

That's really Good. It's like post-colonial movement in terms of education, introducing different forms of epistemology and ontology. I've mentioned this to Hamid. It was a 1960s, very hard read in terms of paper, but how academics from the global majority, sometimes similar to what Fanan and dubois have said, they've had to have a certain stance for their work to be published. I mean, we still see it today, but how much knowledge we've lost because people had to feel forced to speak from a certain lens.

Kawthar:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Sumaira:

we're the generation that's changing that, but

Kawthar:

Definitely.

Hameed:

I'm enjoying this conversation a lot thow I really want to explore more about how the economic and political situation in Africa is actually impacting the mindset of Africans globally. we started it with the whole Nigerian thing when we talked about, your friend that was Nigerian, that, met African Americans and how he felt towards them

Kawthar:

Mm mm-hmm.

Hameed:

and so on. but it, are there any similarities to de post, slavery syndrome that you talked what's happening now

Kawthar:

Yeah,

Hameed:

with regards to how the world sees Africa and how that affects our mental health as Africans in the diaspora

Kawthar:

that's very interesting. I think there are some things that overlap. as I said, it might look different, within let's say African Americans versus Africans, but I think a lot of the times, the fact that as we just discussed everything, it can feel for a lot of Nigerians and people in Africa that everything that is good has to be found in the West. Even though there's already those effects of colonization, I think what that can do is even reinforce that more sometimes I hear people say things along the lines of, for example, Nira can never be good and we can never, because we are just not, it's almost as if it's a biological thing. Like we're not capable of it. it's so interesting because Nigerians again do so well a lot of the times when they are abroad, and there's different debates about that in terms of, you know, is it that when people migrate they feel like they have to work harder and all of that stuff. But I think there is something also about, as I said, how does that impact, yeah, how people feel about their own country, but also how they feel about how people also view them. Right. Because I think there's something about the immigrant experience and how people view you. And even as a black British person, the white majority will still see you as an African, right? I remember one of the first jobs I ever had, and someone asked me, oh, where are you from? I said, I'm from Nigeria. They were like, oh, isn't it poor there? why are you saying this? But also it makes me think that the economic situation in Africa, it still reflects on us as black people, even if we're second, third, fourth generation. So what does that do to one psyche and how does that even impact me? Right? About how I feel about Africa. for me it's on two levels. There's one in terms of just obviously economic insecurity. right now there's this whole Ja Japan movement causes people to want to leave. Right. and what does that do to one psyche where you have to rebuild your life when you feel like the country that is, you know, the land of your ancestors and everything, it can make, a lot of people feel hopeless and wanting to give up and just feel like there's nothing, and I don't blame anyone for moving, don't get me wrong. but I'm just saying how it affects them on a psychological level that like, I have to really assimilate to Britishness and British culture. And I've seen this amongst a lot of Nigerians. some people just are like, they wanna teach my child anything about Nigeria,'cause what has Nigeria done for me? I don't wanna change my child, the language. And then their children then start having that identity crisis and things like that because they themselves, might not have that because they grew up in Nigeria and they're comfortable with themselves, but their children did not have that. Right. So that can create that. And then there's, as I said, the image of Africa in general, which I think we, as the children of the diaspora, we carry with us. no matter if you've never gone to Africa, you're like, I don't want anything to do with that. We carry the kind of stain in the sense of where Africa is at, at the moment.

Hameed:

definitely you were talking about how it reflects on us, the economic and political situation and how we carry that event with us. And I can definitely attest to that because I think this is partly what made me. when I came to the UK as you can tell, some people who aren't from England think I have a, British accent, but the people who are truly from London know that I don't sound completely like a Londoner, they know that my accent is a bit different.

Kawthar:

its a bit of mish mash

Hameed:

It's, exactly a bit of a mishmash. But, when I first came to this country, obviously, and I think the reason for that'cause I've been here for a long time and I still sound like this, I can't help it now. but when I first came here, I was seized for my African accent and I think because I was seized for it, I was like, okay, I'm gonna double it down. And I'm not changing it just for that. was like, my way of rebelling and fighting back I'm, not gonna try to form and try to speak this whole, you know, blah, blah and do all that. Like, I'm gonna deliberately rebel. I'm gonna stick to what I know. and I that was what started me on this journey.'cause I started thinking, is it so bad to be African? and the people that would make fun of me were mostly black people. Sometimes Nigerians themselves,

Kawthar:

Yeah,

Hameed:

obviously, this was before it became cool to be African, but it was Jamaicans and Nigerians and there were a few white people, but it was mostly black people. it got me thinking is it so bad to be African? And like, why? and why is it bad to be African? I would look at it and I'm the type that I don't like to feel sorry for myself. all I know is fight back, when people would say stuff like, go back to your country or something like that, I would be like, yeah, I would. Except it's not good there.

Kawthar:

interesting

Hameed:

why isn't it good there? thinking like that is what led me to learn about geopolitics learn about history and want to know why isn't my country good? Why am I having to put up with all this BS and all these people chatting shit to me when, I could be in my own country where my people are and everything, but obviously it's not good there. And why is it not good there? And then you learn about that and then I got older, I got money, I started traveling to other European countries. I don't like going to too many European countries now because when I see racism, I can't even if I don't see it, first of all, when I see it, I have to step in.'cause I'm like, nah, f this. Secondly, even if I don't see it overtly, like I still feel like I can feel it in some countries that I go to

Sumaira:

yeah it's covert racism all around us

Hameed:

Yeah and it is like, from their perspective, maybe I can see a little bit of why they would think that if you have tons of migrants from South Sudan or Chad, who are trying to make a better life for themselves, and they come here and they end up just constantly selling stuff on the road and everything like that, they're se they're selling little tourism things or trying to do whatever it is that do whatever it is to make ends meet. I can see how obviously though we're doing some things that are not legit, some things that are not legal and suddenly there's this whole stigma of, oh, black people tend to do things that aren't legit so when I look at it from their perspective, I'm like, this is what, probably what they're thinking but then I go into this countries and, like France is a major example, Italy is another one, but yeah, France is one I'm a member of mainly. But I go into the cities and these countries and I feel the same thing. And I'm like, you are? Look, when I see them looking at me, You're probably looking at us like, you are better than us right now. And that's because. You're flipping country back in the days, went to my consonants and stole a whole bunch of stuff. And are you out here looking at me like, you're better than me that anger still boils up. like, I can't stand this that's why I'm doing Ronu Spirit, that's why I'm here. we need to do this empowerment. We need to figure out a way to lift ourselves up. And I generally believe that we have to move in silence. I generally believe they're gonna try to stop us if we start succeeding in it. I know that for a fact.'cause I know that capitalism is based upon the cheapening of labor and resources of the people of the global south.

Kawthar:

Um,

Hameed:

All this wealth that the British and the Americans are so proud of wouldn't exist without the exploitation the global south.

Kawthar:

Definitly

Sumaira:

Mm-hmm.

Hameed:

at some point, when we start trying to rise up, they're gonna try to stop us.

Kawthar:

I

Hameed:

know that I'm just being real with the world right now. And anybody that says it's not true, they're not being real because it's just the way it is. I don't even

Kawthar:

Yeah. the thing is what you've said, there's so much truth in it and made me think there's two ways people go with that. You know, sometimes people internalize it, so it's like, my country is not doing well, so that means we are not good as people. And they internalize that and they internalize that anti-blackness and self hatred. And then there's the anger as well. Like sometimes I always think Nigerias were Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, there's the anger. But I think what you are talking about is, right. I think there's righteous anger, right? you are projecting your anger, I feel like, in the right way in terms of the people who are the systems that cause the anger. But sometimes the anger I think it's in the book on the post-traumatic s slave syndrome that I was talking about. One of the things that she says is one of the symptoms you can say of it is like she says, ever present anger. feeling like one's goal is unattainable. Feeling like, for example, someone in a system like Nigeria, where it's like, what? No matter what I do, I've heard people tell me they gone to school, they had the PhD, they did everything, but the system is not allowing them to succeed, right? So there's that anger that boils up. And then sometimes as then the way people deal with the anger is different, right? Some people are just like, well, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna take it out. And other people go, but there's that kind of simmering pot that's going on. I think a lot of the times where there's this constant boiling, right? Because people. On the whole, I'm not satisfied with the situation. So the way people, translate that is where, it can either be productive or non-productive, but either way, I think it's just a symptom of the system not working. And also just as black people is very, very frustrating because for us as children of the diaspora, the question is where do we belong? And I have debates with people d term about should I stay in the uk? Should I go to somewhere in Africa? Should I go to somewhere they, we east of different places. And a lot of these conversations, what I realize is even if you go to other regions in the world, there's still racism. Black people are still locked down upon, you're still in the same boat,

Hameed:

across the world, everybody see as the bottom.

Kawthar:

Exactly.

Hameed:

Whether you go to China, you go to the land of the white man. Even if you go to south America, black people are look down upon

Kawthar:

it's still the same thing. It's like, my husband was raised in, he's Nigeria, but he was raised in the Middle East. And we just have conversations about how the Middle East is a whole different ball game. I don't wanna, you can imagine guys there is like, how's the amount of racism there? And a lot of stuff. I always think that the bottom line is. To be honest, and I dunno if it'll happen in our lifetime, but until Africa gets to a good point, in a economically it is gonna part, I think part of racism in a sense, and I'm not saying this is justified, but I think part it is a bit about that. It's like, oh, but you guys are inferior because you guys are not doing well. So I think there is that going on.

Sumaira:

Yeah.

Hameed:

I've been thinking lately that capitalism, racism and colonialism are three sides of the same thing. they're really linked.

Sumaira:

connect yeah

Kawthar:

Mm

Hameed:

because when you think about this whole capitalism, at least the way it is in capitalist world structure and how it was created, it was through colonialism. it was through exploiting people in the global south. And the reason for justifying that exploitation was racism. trying to address each one individually. Might not be the best move. now that I'm thinking about it. I feel like that it's a three-headed dragon. I feel it all connected in order for them to achieve this goal of greed and money obviously it works for them, but it doesn't work for everybody else. So we're gonna constantly keep having this struggle. If I was white, I would be like, yeah, it worked for us. in charge. We've been running the world for 500 years, we're cool

Kawthar:

Yeah,

Hameed:

but I'm not white

Kawthar:

exactly.

Hameed:

hahahaha

Kawthar:

we have to be, what's the word? Support our own course. for example, let's say the white British perspective, and of course I can't speak for every white British person, but on a general level, like in the uk there's been a lot of anti-immigrant rhetoric, even from people of color that have settled here for years. And to be honest, I think there's, again, that missing piece because the media always talks about all these people are coming in the boats and yada yada. But no one's talking about the fact that these countries that are being destabilized is what it, that cycle is not gonna end. People are not gonna stop coming here. If the, if things, why would someone leave everything that they have to risk coming here. Some people coming here knowing that they are very likely to die at sea. Why would people be that desperate,

Hameed:

I used to be so angry when people would say go back to your country, or Go back. I'm like, you punks you. I would wanna go back if I could. and then that would make me get angry at the Nigerian politicians and then make me even more mad at them. now that I know that they're mentally ill, hahahahahaah, maybe wouldn't be so mad

Sumaira:

That would be on the headlines

Kawthar:

hahahaahah

Sumaira:

Hameed suggested.

Hameed:

yeah but before when people would say that, I'll just look at the Politicians. I like, the Politicians are the reasons why this people talk to me like this

Kawthar:

But what is true though, it is because again, there's never that accountability of actually the things that are going on politically and et cetera are called, we are just seeing the result. And I can understand if I was someone who I didn't understand about all these dynamics, why are all these people, why can't they stay in they country, you are not actually looking at the bigger picture that you are never gonna solve the migration crisis and all this stuff when these things are going on. for example, there's a type of, how can I say it? There's a branch of psychology, something called like liberation psychology, which I'm very interested. Yeah, it is really interesting. And the person, Martin Barrow, I think is the one that, coined, liberation psychology

Hameed:

Ooh, I'm gonna write his name down

Kawthar:

he's very interesting. and he was working in Latin America and stuff. And a lot of what he says is, this thing called like conscientization or something, which essentially means working with people to find solutions. But also one of the concepts under that is recovery of historical memory. I think a lot of the times the reason why. People don't understand each other, right? People don't understand, as we said, whether it's African American to the African, to the white British, to an immigrant or all these polarizations we've been talking about is because people don't understand each other's story. People don't even understand their own story. Sometimes there are so many people don't even know their own family history and what things have led to things or what things, how all these political and colla, it's each one of our families, it's is created a trajectory that's landed us in the uk, right? It's created something and a lot of us don't know that, but we just know the result. And we know we're here and we're just told, okay, you are, here you are, you are British, now you are black British. And that's it. As if there's not a story behind that, okay, how did black people end up in Britain? What, happened? what is the story behind that? So I think that a lot of that work actually encourages psychologists while working with especially minoritized populations or oppressed people to actually help them recover their memories in terms of like that person necessarily, let's say, had a trauma. They might have, they might have not, but actually these historical memories that had been hidden away from us or are just not talked about.

Hameed:

you know what? I can't stand, I can't stand people that deny, that you know, I have so much more respect for people that are openly racist. like Donald Trump, honestly, I think this is why I Love who like Donald Trump, if someone from the, you know, one of these mps or House of Common, this privileged white men say something like, yeah, we went over, took your stuff'cause we're stronger and now we're running things. I'd be like, I respect that. That's fine. I'm still gonna fight you, but I respect but then the ones that are just like trying to spin things You explain to them what the reasoning is and they pretend they don't hear you. there's nothing that frustrates me more than that. And I've seen that a lot when I watch these Israel Palestine debates you know, people are constantly like someone from the Palestinian side lays down the facts and then the, someone from the Israel side, pretend he doesn't hear and he just shifts the goalpost or change to something else

Sumaira:

Or uses the same argument. they are being very antisemitic. You don't want Jewish people to have a safe place when there is. for the audience, there's a difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism.

Kawthar:

white supremacy is so infiltrated, right? Whether it's, I think the Israeli Palestinian conflict is an example of that. So many

Hameed:

that's definitely white supremacy

Kawthar:

Exactly.

Hameed:

no one is telling me anything else. This is just Colonisation in our front,

Kawthar:

our faces, literally.

Hameed:

we see it. Nobody can tell me nothing else. This is literally evil hahahaha.

Sumaira:

it's a genocide.

Kawthar:

Exactly,

Hameed:

a femin genocide

Kawthar:

I think there's certain things that, obviously this is something we're seeing in real time right now, so there's a lot of passion because we're literally seeing it like on the news, we're living through this, this is not the past, you know, this is the living present. I think one of the ways people cope with racism is to pretend it doesn't exist, is like what I was saying, like the alien self and the anti self self. Some people just pretend that, right. It doesn't exist. Everything's equal. we live in a society where if you just work hard, you can get everything. So if you don't get it, that means the fault is on you because everything is equal. So I think people have different coping mechanisms to deal with racism, right.

Sumaira:

definitely different coping mechanisms. Defence,

Kawthar:

exactly

Sumaira:

fantasy,

Kawthar:

projections

Sumaira:

So many can keep listing.

Kawthar:

I put something on my Alafia project, page a few weeks ago where I was talking about, fight flight response. Right. that for some people is a response to racism. Like, have, is like, no, I'm gonna hide. I'm gonna like, this is not acceptable.

Sumaira:

I know. I thought that exactly. As someone who works in trauma,

Kawthar:

Yeah, I'm thinking like PTSD fight flight conflict exactly. You are just like, no, I'm not gonna take it. Some people are like, Ooh, you know, and they're fawn, you know, they'll just pretend that appease. Exactly. They'll just appease the master to put it that way, they wanna appease and like kind of an Uncle Tommy, if I appease enough, he'll be good to me, and I don't screw the rest of them. so people have different ways of coping, and not necessarily right or wrong, but I think psychological language is actually really powerful in helping us understand why people behave like this.

Sumaira:

I was gonna say we, sorry, Hamid, I, it also made me think about intergenerational trauma and how much we carry without even knowing. for my parents, I would say, or that generation who migrated, they were on survival mode. They didn't get to really process. They wanted to build something, for their future generations, et cetera. And I don't think necessarily they've had that time. intergenerationally, I think we definitely, as you said earlier, we need to learn our histories and understand, how it influences even our physical health. Not only our psych and, understanding the socio geopolitical context of our own history, our countries, but also around the world is so important. but like you said, capitalism is designed in a way to not even give us the space in the west to be able to do that properly. and the narratives are so strong. When you spoke about like quotation marks, illegal immigrants, and how I see so many people in the South Asian community saying, yeah, we support, what was it, Rishi Sunak or something,

Kawthar:

hahaahah,

Sumaira:

The UK accepts the lowest number of refugees than any other European Country but does anybody know that? even the term illegal immigrant isn't even a legal concept to use. But yeah, It's interesting how dominant narratives even influence the people of the global majority.

Kawthar:

exactly.

Sumaira:

separation, like, yeah, but I came earlier

Kawthar:

exactly As if it makes, us better. Right? it's so crazy.

Hameed:

Uncle Tom Behavior right there.

Kawthar:

you know, as I said, it's a mentality. It's not black people. You're not born with this kind of country or people of color, the global majority, because as you said, some people, they've got the same skin tone, but they feel like, yeah, we did it the right way. But when you came in the 1970s, I know for example, my granddad came to the UK when he came in, I think the late fifties, I don't think Nigeria had independence. They just came, they actually came as part of the whole, like rebuilding the war ethic and things. And none of them even thought they wanted to stay. They came here and they went back. A lot of people went back. They didn't see Britain as day home, so many things have changed geopolitically that actually made a lot of people actually return to the uk. it's crazy.

Hameed:

I was gonna challenge a little bit of what you said, Kawthar you said, the fight or flight response, like when you appease them. those in charge and you just try to assimilate. It's not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing. I feel like it's a bad thing under colonialism. and the reason I would say that is in my study of, Nigerian history, every time throughout the whole of Nigerian history, they divided people into co-ops and Agats Agats were the guys that were trying to liberate Nigeria right from their colonial masters, from the British. And the co-ops were the ones that would just suck up to. whatever governor was running Lagos at that time, or running Nigeria at that time. And just do whatever they want. And of course we do everything they can to influence the people or sabotage the movements of the people that are trying to fight for liberation. When there was a worker strike corps, at one point, Nigeria organized the most effective workers strike. I've read about in a while. And it was crazy. The entire country stopped working and there wasn't social media doing anything, but these co-op people were going around trying to convince people that this strike is over, get back to work in different parts of Nigeria. I'm talking from north to south. everyone went on a strike, And this affected the pockets of the British a lot. And a strike is way worse than anything that could happen.'cause if they're just extracting money from that place, they went on strike for a number of days. So that was a lot of money that the British lost and they try to get the co-ops to go in and, preach all these things.

Kawthar:

Yeah. Maybe I didn't explain myself properly I didn't mean it was good. What I meant is that. I think these psychological concepts, they can help us understand why people behave, the way they behave. Not necessarily that it's a good thing, but that sometimes you need language to help you say, okay, why did these people decide to betray their own people for short term game? What is going on? There's something there about perhaps, obviously there might have been short term monetary gain, but also maybe succumbing to white supremacy and believing that, we need these white masters, right? And we should just appease them, right? We should just do what they say because they're better than us, they're cleverer than us. We are not as efficient. sometimes there's that internalization of that self-hatred that people have gotten, and it doesn't make it right. But I just think personally it can help to understand like, why would you do something so stupid? Why would you do something that, I think if a lot of these people if they could have looked into the future and seen the state of things now I think maybe they would wake up and see the, impact of these things, the seed that is left has been devastating on Nigeria in the long term. Right? that is what I meant more anyway.

Hameed:

Yeah. No, I hear you.

Sumaira:

its context. Understanding understanding things and it's context that's important. And as you said, Kawthar is about, being able to give language to certain behaviors because not everyone's going to have the same mentality as we know now. People will say, oh, it's really sad what's happening in Palestine, Congo, Sudan, anywhere else, but like, they are too overwhelmed, or their defense mechanism doesn't allow them to go beyond that. verses other people who are really curious, I wanna understand this. what can we do? That's why we have different personality types, and it all goes back to our context and our upbringing and our innate personalities as well.

Hameed:

and then there are others who sell their soul to the Devil

Kawthar:

literally.

Hameed:

sure, there those are curious. I wanna know more what's going on with this oppression. There are those who are like, it's really sad, but I don't have the energy. I don't wanna, and then there are others who actually, like, people that came to be educated and then especially those that from a people of global majority, those that are either black or from global south and they are educated on it. yet this, they just sell. They just like, yeah, I don't care. I'm like, oh, I don't understand. I just think, what are you thinking? you realize your birth was an accident. Like the situation you're in now could have been a different thing.

Kawthar:

You could of been that person Yeah.

Hameed:

that in that country getting bombed.

Sumaira:

it's a lottery. Literally you born But it's the individualistic mindset, isn't it? It's not thinking community or collectively, even if they're from collectivist cultures

Kawthar:

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's the thing. It's like, again, referencing, Dr. Naim Akwa, like he calls, like self-destructive disorders. you are doing things that are empowering you, but you destroying the people around you. It's not just that you have self-hatred, you're actually doing things that might destroy the people. Ideally, you just don't care. And I think at the end of the day, as you say, it's that individualistic mindset. As long as I'm good, I don't screw the collective. What has the collective done for me? I don't care. But again, I think this individualistic mindset, it takes away from the fact that we are still judged as a collective. That's just the truth. We are just as a collective, as black people. and it is never gonna change just because you might think you are like you know, the uncle Tom, you are the good one. You are not like the rest and you are different. But when push comes to shove, we saw it in like the riots in the UK recently. people will still be like, yeah, they will still see you as different. there's so many things about that incident where they found out so many information that the media was perpetuating that was not even true. Making it racist, where again, it had nothing to do with race. Making it an Islamic thing where it had nothing to do with Islam. And people piggy banking on that. Like, yes, finally, let's say we are gonna get rid of all this people

Sumaira:

our

Kawthar:

time. this is our time. for me, I experienced a very visceral fear even though nothing happened around me. But I was still a bit like, what? Like really we've had certain things that have happened in the UK and that didn't even spark riots like this. And I was thinking, wow, so the bottom line is you're still seen as you are not actually from here. They're still seen as inferior and they still made it a, like a race issue, even though as I said it, it had nothing to do with races. Like, how dare this black man killed these white girls? it was an absolutely horrible incident. I think it was seen as through that lens, because we all know if it was a white man that killed them,

Sumaira:

it would be mental health

Kawthar:

it would be mental health. Right? Exactly. It would be seen as mental health. people would ask the question. what made this person do it? And again, I'm not justifying what this person did, but I'm just saying people would be more curious. Why would someone do that? But it's like with a black person, there's no question. It's just as if we are inherently violent or with a Muslim person, they're just inherently evil. And there's a lack of curiosity, but sorry, Hameed. I know you are burning to say something. hahahahaha

Hameed:

yeah, I am. I

Sumaira:

at his face.

Hameed:

I was thinking of something it was triggered by something you just said. this individualistic culture is a western thing. It's a thing that the white people embodied like we are taking it on, but when they do something wrong, they're judged individually. Whereas every time we do something wrong, we're judged collectively. we're taking on a, their culture, but it's not,

Kawthar:

it's not, serving us.

Hameed:

it's not serving us the way it's serving them we're literally at a disadvantage. Because you're right. individualism is a western thing, when someone does something crazy, school shooters and whatnot, oh, it's mental health. what caused this person to do this? If a black or Muslim or someone person does something like that, it's like, oh, this black people see, this is why we can't have

Kawthar:

immigration Exactly. It's the whole collective gets judged as they had something to do with perpetuating this behavior to me, it still goes back to this,

Hameed:

it's almost like they think we're different species

Kawthar:

Samira, you were talking about the history of psychology and eugenics and all these things. When you go back to the core of it, right? When these racial categories were created, it was these polarizations of whiteness, purity, intelligence, all of that. Black people animalistic, evil savage. And I think when certain things happen, it's almost like that button just gets triggered. Boom, boom, boom. I told you they're savage. it's like booya, we got them. That is how they really are. It still goes back to that, that polarization, white people, it's because something in their mental capacity.'cause they're not naturally like that. So it has to be something in their mental capacity that has failed. we still have that.

Hameed:

whereas for us it's like, oh, you guys are naturally like that

Kawthar:

basically,

Sumaira:

It's the dehumanization as we are seeing it on different levels, like how the killings are justified now. It's dehumanizing, long term that these influences, yeah, happen overtly and covertly. it might not be on the level that Palestinians are being dehumanized right now, but that happened once upon a time and ripple effects still exist.

Kawthar:

Today yeah. And also something that just came to mind is like, when you were talking about people like selling their souls and we were comparing Africa and all of this stuff, it just made me think even back back, when we talk about, let's say Africans that got taken to, to the Americas? We know that obviously some were captured, there was also some Africans that decided to sell, trade basically, right? Because there was already this slave trade in Africa and they just saw it as a trade. But I don't think the Africans of that time really understood that the level that this is not the same yet as the slavery within the continent, but I still think that mentality on some level. even though we understand and our eyes are open and where we know like the impact, but again, some people just close themselves off. they just almost like survival for themselves. Exactly. I'm talking more on a political level, like if we keep, embezzling these resources, if we keep being corrupt, these things have an impact on us. I think that Nigeria hasn't really recovered, and again, the state of Nigeria was created by the British and it has never really recovered, as you said, from the ethnic tensions and being just put together with people that we were not all together before. Right. there were different empires and there were different things, and we were just told, you guys are one country now. Deal with it.

Sumaira:

deal with it.

Kawthar:

with it. That's your business. so there's just so many levels to this.

Hameed:

very interesting and exciting conversation. and one more thing that you mentioned when we had our phone call, was, social media and its impact, on, Nigerians and Black people when we were talking about the political situation in Africa and how it affects Africans mentally, and I think you mentioned how social media is used to promote the feeling of leaving Africa getting out, and no loyalty being created between the citizens and the government. could you expand a little bit more on

Kawthar:

that I'm trying to actually think what we were talking about exactly that day,

Hameed:

from my notes here, we were talking about the whole jackpot movements, which is people leaving nigeria. Then we were talking about how there isn't really an understanding between people, Nigerians, at least of this is what we have done as a people. So how the contribution and add to this vision and

Kawthar:

to this

Hameed:

dream it's more like, oh, this is what the white people have done for us. We haven't really done anything. with that, you only know what other people have done for you and it takes away a bit of your own power and I think that affects the loyalty

Kawthar:

Yeah.

Hameed:

you feeling as a part of the country.

Kawthar:

Yeah, it is interesting because it just made me think about the notion of citizenship in a sense, because if you think about it, if you really feel like you're a citizen of a country, you feel like, for example, contributed to the democratic process. What I do can have an impact. My voice can be heard, even if I, let's say pay taxes to the state, I'm getting something in return. There's a relationship you have with the state. I don't think, to my knowledge that there is any such thing in the Nigerian system with the state

Hameed:

people pay

Kawthar:

taxes

Hameed:

but you don't get

Kawthar:

anything back. I'm not blaming people for this, but I'm just saying there's not a relationship between citizen estate and yes, no state is perfect. Even within the uk of course there are things that many people, protest about, debate about and different things. But there's still a relationship between citizen estate. There's still something where I'm like, okay, I do this. I can at least get this healthcare. sometimes they say kind of like the state is almost like a nanny. the state is functioning as a body, right. That people go to. If you lose your job, you go to the state to, you expect the state to look after you. so there is that there, the state is almost operating like a private company, I would say, than a state for people, And then you've got, on the other hand, we live in the age of social media. We live in a time where we can essentially look on our phones and we can see a better life, right? and I think that maybe does make things different from different generations where. people had their own reasons for migrating then, but now we can see this is the life I could get. This is the life I'm live in now. Right. and that lack of relationship between the state and people also starts, on an education level, education is a form of indoctrination. Right? And then, and it can be a good thing in the sense of like a lot of the time if you think about state education being free, it's not just for, what's the call it for altruistic means is actually to create citizens who think a certain way, right? Where we learn about Henry the 8th and we learn about what Queen Victoria did and all these things. It puts a sense of pride in people that actually made people did X, Y, and Z. My people did all of these things, right? they went to here, they explored there, they did the Spanish Hamad or whatever. You know, you had to learn in school about things. And it does create a sense of pride. you know, there was a time in Nigeria that history wasn't even being taught. I don't know if things have changed, but my mom was actually teaching in Nigeria and she told me that they removed history.

Hameed:

that's why I started the basic Nigerian history on the Ronu Spirit Channel

Kawthar:

exactly, because the thing is that historical amnesia, what I think it creates is again, this gaping hole where people are like, this is the experience, but I don't understand why we're having this experience. Right. It creates this gaping hole where even the history of how Nigeria got created, the Civil War, there's so many things even within like recent history that have happened that has created this tension, right? And I think maybe the way the Nigerian government dealt with is like, let's just take it out so that people just don't care about it. But actually what you've done is not allow people to understand who they are and their identity I think as Nigerians people know a lot about, let's say, you know, we're talk about ethnicity, right? Yoruba ha da da da. But the concept of Nigerian ness is still new. If you think about our grandparents might have lived in a time of great grandparents when Nigeria didn't actually exist. yeah, I think when Nigeria came about, first of all, it was like the northern and southern protectorate, right? it wasn't even, I think it was in 1914 that they made it Nigeria, right? So again, that's what, just a hundred, just over a hundred years ago,

Hameed:

definitely my grandparents, when they were alive, there was no Nigeria.

Kawthar:

Exactly. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the concept of a state you need to create that in citizens. That actually we are one state and doing, you know, being educated within this state and you will get something in return and we will, you know, that concept that we are united. I don't think it's definitely, definitely not there. And it's definitely not, in the consciousness. People are still, as you said, still very tribalistic feel everybody fool their own. And I do think that impacts the ability for people to see, yes there are political issues, but also people to see themselves as a united front, if that makes sense. That actually by helping the country, we're all helping each other. We're all making this country better. And again, we were, unfortunately Nigerians or people who were in this region would, did not get a say if they wanted to be part of, if they wanted to be together in the same country. So I think the anger and the frustration and the forcefulness of that is still, reverberating today because we didn't as a people get a voice to decide if that was for us.

Hameed:

I mean, the Yoruba people are a great example because, half of us are in Nigeria, but I think a large percentage of us is also in

Kawthar:

Benny. Yeah.

Hameed:

Yeah. they just split the Yobo Empire in the middle room. Like, you guys gonna go over there? guys gonna go over here? that's why, we have people who've been in Sweden, Yoruba, I'm what? You're Yoruba what? like, you're not Nigerian. and based on what I'm seeing from even this western, countries, maybe the approach is not exactly the best. so maybe we even need to rethink the way we look at power structures and the way we look at running our own communities. Maybe we need to decentralize power more, and, have, allow people to. have more of a say in their lives and these African countries might be a great way to try these things out, because obviously we haven't really cemented a particular approach. we are all pretty new. We don't necessarily have to do it the same way the white people do.

Kawthar:

You're right. you just reminded me. Even when you look at the uk, The concept of union. It's still contentious. I mean, things are better, but it's still contentious and I love learning about history. And when you look at, like, even within England, like, sorry, within the United Kingdom, as they say, the. Ireland, like only just in the nineties did they actually kind of sought out the whole, you know, Northern Ireland and all of that. And there was fighting for years, you know, Scotland, So even if you look at British history, it wasn't just people just think, oh it's all Great Britain. No, it was, there was a lot of contention that why would West Minister Downs South make decisions about what we are going through in our regions. And actually they have different languages and they have different cultures even within this so-called Great Britain. So I think, as you said, us looking at the Western thinking, oh, this is the best way to do things. Do you need the best way to do things? Because what a lot of the times it still creates inequality. There's still, even within the uk, we've got a north south divide of it. We've got this and that. You still create inequalities where some groups or some regions get more than others. Right. And I like what you said about decentralizing power. looking at things from a different model rather than just trying to replicate things.'cause it hasn't necessarily, it's taken a long time I was reading something the other day where they were talking about, for example, for a long time people would never describe themselves like as British people would describe themselves as Scottish and English. And there was a lot of tension between those groups. They didn't see themselves as one. So why do we do we

Hameed:

expect our country

Kawthar:

as big as Nigeria, that is way bigger than england, sorry, great Britain by Landmark. Why do we expect everybody to just get along with everbody 200 plus ethnic groups but yeah

Hameed:

and it's not only that it took them a long time, the western world to get to this level, but even now that they're at this level, look at the us. They're extremely divided. it's not really working but. They were only able to do it because they had the capitalistic approach of exploiting the global south so they could do this model and make it work and everything, but people didn't really have to. whenever things got they could always flood the market with money, and they were rich. it's easy to put up with certain things when your country is wealthy, and you have all those resources to extract from. We are not gonna have the same thing unless we want to do to them what they did to us. We're not gonna have whole

Kawthar:

True, backup

Hameed:

of wealth. So to try to copy the model that they did, which is not even the best, it just doesn't make sense to me so I don't like the fact that, when people talk about how we can improve and the structures that we can put in place, I don't like the fact that we always wanna copy what the Western world are doing, because it's probably not gonna work for us we probably should'nt do it

Kawthar:

yeah you are right.

Sumaira:

it's designed to serve them, isn't

Kawthar:

it? even our education

Sumaira:

system, what did we learn in history and how much was left out in terms of out schooling. and what difference that would make if we actually learned that things were happening? Maybe not in the West,'cause it was the dark ages or whatever. There's not just this big chunk of no history,

Kawthar:

definitely That is really interesting'cause it even makes me think about like, for example, the Middle East and things like that, and I mean, there's so many. I don't know too much about in terms of the, the politics, but as an observer, I know in their system, for example, they have a lot of laborers from, for example, Pakistan and India and different things, Malaysia and even, east Africa that come over and do different laborer jobs and do different menial jobs. And, they have to create a class system Right. yeah hierarchy Exactly. and those people will not have any right to citizen. Sometimes they don't even have a right to keep their own passport, the Kafala system, their passport is taken away from them from the minute they enter the country. So as you said, if we really wanna think about, things, are we just thinking of recreating other systems of oppression? Or are we thinking about creating something new and something collectivist and something that is actually empowering for people in general? Yeah.

Hameed:

Yeah, Awesome. thank you. Oh my God, Alright, Let's do the conclusion. we've had an amazing conversation. We've talked about so many things, but we, always try to end it on a positive note in something that can give the people that are listening agency, we usually ask questions about what can be done, to solve some of these

Kawthar:

issues

Hameed:

that we've discussed and what can people do,

Sumaira:

if there is one piece of advice or wisdom you can share with black individuals in the diaspora, what would it be? in order for them to empower themselves so that it will cause a ripple effect and empower others to,

Kawthar:

Okay. I'll start off with, there's a quote by Steve Beaker, I think he was, an apartheid activist in South Africa. and he said, something along the lines of, the most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. And for me, there's so many things we can talk about when we talk about the state of Africa and the state of things right now. And there's so many angles, but I think our mindset and believing that we are people, that we deserve goodness as well, and we are not intellectually deficient. We can do well, you know, even just as individuals empowering ourselves. I think is so important. and yes, there are a lot of negative things and bad things that are happening, but we have to try and always counterbalance that also with the good. And I think that's something that as someone from the diaspora sometimes, a lot of people grew up only hearing negative things about Africa, only hearing negative things. And it affects our psyche and it affects who we are. So I think what I would say is being intentional in what we choose to absorb as well. Being intentional in the stories that we hear, being intentional in the literature that we feed ourselves and not just, yes, we know that the political situation and keeping aware of the political situation is really important. But I think a massive thing we've spoken about today again and again, is that recovery of historical memory, of taking away this historical amnesia. We're like, okay, this, and this is going on, but this is And it might seem like, yeah, one is repeating themselves, but it's so important because if we don't say why these things are the way they are, then it just seems like, oh, it's just bad luck. Or we are, we are just not as good or this and that. Actually, no, there's been a systemic reason, but why things are the way they are. And I think that in itself, for me anyway, has really helped to ground me and understand on a personal level, ground my self-esteem and my sense of self, but also on a global level hopefully what, you know, Africa can succeed and Africa can do. it's not a deficiency personally, if that makes sense the way I see it, even like in a psychology lens, not seeing the kind of disorder as just being in the individual, seeing the disorder as societal or structural. Right. Because that makes a difference in how someone could go from either level of intent, myself, hey, to having righteous anger and righteous frustration at the systems. yeah. And that can have a big impact just on our psyche and our minds.

Hameed:

Amazing. Thank

Sumaira:

you Very

Kawthar:

powerful

Sumaira:

words of wisdom. a lot as a psychologist too, and just as a person of the global majority. yeah. I hope the listeners enjoy this conversation as much as we have.

Hameed:

Yeah, I wanna reiterate it. the advice is to be intentional in what we choose to absorb, in the literature that we take in. Doesn't have to be literature, just the knowledge that we take in making sure that we learn why things are the way they are whilst being aware of the current political situation. So I think you're saying the first step is just to be aware. We need to be aware Hmm in order to be aware, we need knowledge'cause knowledge about the past and knowledge about the current political situation. I guess we just have to find a way to make it easy for people to get that knowledge

Kawthar:

one other thing I would add is I guess part of what you were doing as well. I think the third step to that to me is coming together as a collective because I think we do have power in numbers and the biggest thing sometimes is believing we have no power to do anything. Right. And I think coming together and moving away from that individualistic mentality and coming together as people of the global majority, and having these conversations or doing different projects together and connecting with people and talking with people. There's so much power in that. And I think if we believe we don't have any power to change anything, we're not gonna do anything, if that makes sense. Yeah. We have to believe that we have power.

Hameed:

Amazing. I love it. Thank much Kawthar. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been lovely having you

Kawthar:

it's been lovely chatting with you guys.

Hameed:

no problem. I think that is it for this episode, guys. we'll catch you next time,