Ronu Spirit
Follow Hameed's learning journey through conversations with experts as he explores ways to empower African nations, address the legacies of colonisation, and enhance global respect for Black people and the African diaspora.
If you know of any authors, historians, academics etc that will be interested in discussing that topic, please let reach out and let us know. Hameed would love to speak to them.
Ronu Spirit
Episode 8: The Power of Genealogy, Family History, African Heritage, and Reparations with Dr. Wanda Wyporska
In this enlightening episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, host Hameed is joined by Dr. Wanda Wyporska,, an esteemed historian of mixed heritage, to uncover the profound impact of genealogy in reclaiming identity and history. Together, they explore the intricate history of slavery, the significance of genealogy and family history in empowering individuals, and the untapped potential of DNA in tracing lineage. The conversation explores the legacy of colonisation, the significance of ancestral knowledge, and practical steps for preserving family histories for future generations. Dr. Wanda also shares insights from her current work with Safe Passage International, highlighting the life-changing impact of reuniting refugees with their families. Don't miss this rich and thoughtful dialogue on empowering African nations and enhancing global respect for black and African people.
Wanda Wyporska's Links:
Book:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Witchcraft-Early-Modern-Poland-1500-1800-ebook/dp/B00GAZYMTE?ref_=ast_author_dp
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-wanda-wyporska-frsa-0b6a6b9/
Twitter @wandawyporska
Host Links
Dr Sumaira Farha's Instagram: @thetriculturalpsychologist
@ronuspirit on all Social Media
They had to borrow so much money that British taxpayers, including me, were still paying that debt back. my taxes were contributing towards that debt up until 2015.
Hameed:What?
Dr-Wanda:So I'm paying in my taxes
Hameed:your joking!
Dr-Wanda:For the loan that was paid to the people who owned my ancestors instead of my ancestors.
Hameed:How did we not know this? How is this not public knoledge knowledge
Dr-Wanda:Sometimes when you think about what people have been through and you're going through a hard time, we can all sit there and think, okay we can get through this.
Hameed:Welcome to another episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, where you follow my learning journey as I explore potential ways to empower African nations. Address the legacy of colonization and enhance the global respect for black and African people. My name is Hameed, and as usual, we have Dr. Sumaira Farha in the background, serving as my clarity coach.
Sumaira:Hello everyone.
Hameed:My guest today is Dr. Wanda Wyporska Dr. Wanda is of Beijing English and Polish descent. She completed a PhD in history at Oxford and served as the chief exec of the Society of Genealogist, which is the second largest genealogical library in the world. She's also an author, a TEDx speaker, and is currently completing a master's in genealogy. And last but not least, she's the CEO of Safe Passage International, a charity that reunites refugees with their families, whether they're from Gaza, Sudan, or wherever. welcome to the podcast, Dr. Wanda It's a pleasure to have you.
Dr-Wanda:Thank you for inviting me Me, I'm really delighted and happy and honored.
Hameed:Awesome. I wanna begin, with your mixed heritage. I feel like that is the most, I dunno, it's the easiest low hanging fruit because it's not every day I meet someone that is, from half Belgian. and then a quarter English and a quarter polish, right?
Dr-Wanda:Yep.
Hameed:let's talk a little bit about your mixed heritage growing up. what was it like, you know, in the seventies growing up in England, with that mixed heritage?
Dr-Wanda:Yeah, there's a huge difference between growing up in London or Birmingham or somewhere where there were big black populations and somewhere like Chester up in the northwest, which is, you know, in between Manchester and Liverpool. And so when I grew up, there were, I remember in my school there were two other, black children and they were brother and sister. they were African and you'd see three or four people. and that was it. And my cousins, my dad, my dad's brother, then he had children and there were more of us, but there were very few of us in Chester. And it just, when you grow up in that atmosphere, you don't know anything different because it's just what you've grown up and you're used to. And so there were sort of, you know, there was racism, there were different sort of taunts, there were different things people would say to me. my mom was really good at dealing with that because, she had a background in looking at, young Afro-Caribbean boys, teenagers, when she was doing her masters. So, I grew up in a household that was really politically aware. and that, my mom wasn't afraid of explaining things to me. But yeah, I mean, I, when I came down to London and I got to Houston Station, I saw so many black and Asian people and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. and it was a real shock to my system. you know, when I grew up. Watching things like Sesame Street because there was, I'll never forget Maria, she was a Latino woman, and you saw it was very rare that you saw people who weren't white on tv. So, you know, people like Moira Stewart, people like, Maria in Sesame Street, it was like, oh my God, yeah, we could be on tv.
Hameed:Yeah.
Dr-Wanda:really Different to, how people growing up these days and just having that culture and that community to hand.
Hameed:And I think you told me that, your father is the one from Barbados and your mother is half English and half Polish. And I think you mentioned that growing up you were more attuned to the Polish side and you learned so much about that and understood way more about that. this is from the conversation we had previously before we started the podcast. And then maybe you can just elaborate a little bit more on that growing up and exploring that side and, eventually getting your job at the, society of Genealogist and then exploring the other side to your identity and how was that basically?
Dr-Wanda:I mean, I think it's complicated, isn't it? I mean, when I was young, I was growing up with my mom and my grandmother. I knew all of that side of the family. and my father had left when I was two. although my uncle, his brother was there and he was great, he'd come every Christmas, every birthday. He really tried to make up for the fact that my dad wasn't there. But for me, I was very culturally English. I didn't have, you know, there weren't black communities there really. So I really got involved with the Polish side of my family. I did a degree in Polish. I went and lived in Poland. then did my doctorate, on Polish history and. That seems quite ironic, doesn't it? Because I'm never gonna be there in Poland and people are gonna say, oh yeah, you're Polish, and I got into some situations where people just didn't realize that I was gonna be speaking Polish or that I understood them. So you can imagine, all sorts of situations.'cause again, not many black people in Poland, especially, in the nineties. So it was really, I think, an expression of wanting to be one side of the family and really kind of shutting out the other side. But the ironic thing is that, I've always been involved in anti-racism. I've always been involved in, fighting for racial justice. So there was obviously something there. and as I grew older and I grew more confident in what I was doing, I started to look at the black side more. And I think because I was getting more involved in anti-racist work, and working inequalities and, doing a lot of work on that. then I started to look more at my dad's side and to look at the. You know, the family history on that side. And I became Chief executive of the Society of Genealogists. And it was a time when I could really think about family history. I've always been interested, but you know, like a lot of us, I started a bit of a family tree and then, never have enough time'cause there's all sorts of other things to do. But being in that world really opened up the fact to me of how to do it. the resources that were available. I had access to all sorts of people who were experts, so that was great. But what I also found was that because the Society of Genealogists was an archive of last resort, they then got records that, you know, government departments wanted to get rid of stuff, didn't know where to give them to. So they had a whole bunch of records from the Foreign and Commonwealth office and the colonial offices. and those pertain to the history of, south Asian continent of the West Indies of Protectorates of Africa. And what I realized was that genealogy is a very white. Sort of hobby or profession in a sense. And I just thought, one of the things that we've been told is that we don't have records that were not in the records. You know, if I'm researching my mom's side, which is very much in Devon, I can find loads and loads of records. I can go back to, you know, 1500, but I had never thought that I could find records on my black side that I'd be able to find records in the Caribbean. So was a real eye opener to know that there are records, we can trace our histories back. And so that was when I really started to, take family history and genealogy more seriously.
Hameed:I've been noticing you've been saying genealogy and I'm saying genealogy. Am I pronouncing it wrong? how are you? What is the right way to pronounce this word?
Dr-Wanda:Well, it's kind of written genealogy, but people say genealogy and if you wanna be really safe, I mean, you can say family history.
Hameed:Okay.
Dr-Wanda:there are massive debates about, the difference between genealogy and family history, and, that's something that can keep people going for days and days. But you know, for most people it's about researching your family. and that's what's important. It's a family benefit of it. That's important.
Hameed:I think it's very important that we touch on that because, to make sure everybody understand what genealogy is. so it is the, just so I get it right, it is the research of your family's history, right? And the Society of Genealogy is a big foundation. Is it a British one or, where is it? where is the hq?
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. So the Society of Genealogists, was founded over 110 years ago, and is in London, and has this huge library and archives because people have done their fa research, their family histories, and then they've donated them to the library and the archives. But also people, people will donate their whole. Research and books and everything to the library. and it's a fantastic, you know, fantastic, resource. And, you can look online, you can put your surname in and see if there's any records that might relate to your family. And so this is actually what the debate about genealogy and family history is. Family history is where you are looking at your ancestors and you're kind of fleshing their lives out. So you might take a grandfather and then find out where he lived, where he went to church, what his occupation was, and build up, that environment. And the times that he was living in genealogy is more when you are tracing back and you're trying to build that family tree and you're going back through your parents, your grandparents, and trying to get back as far as you can. So there are sort of slight differences. And it's funny because you do find an ancestor that you just feel really quite close to, even though, there could be a great grandfather or somebody, you don't know them obviously, but you just have this little thing for them and it's, it becomes really personal. Like you really find them again and you give them life again. I think that's what's really great about
Hameed:Oh, that's amazing. as you're talking about it, I'm thinking to myself, we don't really do that. When I say we, I mean Africans. I think people of color as well. When I think about how we do genealogy, it's mostly through just asking our parents and asking our grandparents and, There is no database where we can go in and type in our name and trace it down and go all the way back. And do you think something like that is necessary in Africa? let's explore how we do it now.'cause how do African nations do it now? how do black people do it now? How do people of color do that same thing now? And, what could we do to improve it in the future, I guess.
Dr-Wanda:Whoa. That's lots of huge questions there. I'm gonna try to remember all of them but if i dont help me please
Hameed:No problem.
Dr-Wanda:how we can do it now. I mean, there are lots of online databases that have lots of records. for example, you do exactly what you said, you know, you speak to your parents, you get birth certificates for your parents, which then have their parents on it. you talk to'em about the dates, where they were born, all of this sort of thing. And then you can search birth records or baptism records. And actually, what I found is that The registers of births of marriages, of deaths in Barbados for example, go quite far back. I found, records in 1844.
Hameed:oh Really
Dr-Wanda:There's records earlier than that. Yeah. I was surprised'cause I thought, I'm never gonna be able to do this. You can do that. There's quite a lot there for Caribbean Islands and that actually is on a website called Family Search. And that's free, that's provided by the, church of the Latterday Saints, the Mormons. so there are records and if we look at, not a very pleasant record, but the slave registers for example, they are also free online. and also the records of who the plantation owners were are also there online as well. So you can see how much they were paid for the slaves that they owned in order to free them. I think that's probably something we'll get onto a bit later as well. But
Hameed:Yeah, definitely
Dr-Wanda:you can do that at that level. In terms of the Caribbean, if we're thinking about Africa, it's really interesting because, obviously places that were under British rule, under the Empire or French rule, or European rule will have records. Now whether they bothered to, think that Africans were Christians and could be christened or could be buried, you know, in different times, that was always a different issue. But there will be some records. But what I find really fascinating, and I'm absolutely jealous, of a lot of Africans have that oral tradition. So, you know, a friend of mine who's from Somalia, he can recite his. Lines back up to, 15 generations and, I would absolutely die to be able to do that. And it's part of the culture to know who you are and where you come from. And I think, that's absolutely really essential. And that is in common with why people were putting these pedigrees or these lists of their ancestors together. Because originally it was so they could bear a coat of arms and they could, they had to prove who they were or they were inheriting an estate. So they had to prove that they were, son of whoever who was, son of whoever who was son of whoever. And, in a lot of early genealogy, women didn't even get a mention. it's either just put wife, daughter, no names, but it was all about tracing where you came from and who your ancestors were.
Hameed:Amazing. there's two parts to that I wanted to explore. I dunno which direction to go. when you mentioned the Christian thing, I wanted to explore that and try to understand why. But then when you mentioned the thing, about how Africans have our traditions, I wanted to share something there too. But let's talk about why. Christianity is so important in the beginnings of genealogy and like where it came from, like the beginnings of genealogy or genealogy. where did it start? how did this become a thing? Because you said it started like 110 years ago, it's always been a thing. because even in, the Middle Eastern tradition, in the Arab world, people call themselves like Abu Yusuf or you know, father of this person or son of this person. Like, it's always been a thing, but when did this whole turning it into an organization and into some sort of a structural institution, where did that come from?
Dr-Wanda:that's a good question and I think people have always done genealogy in whatever way, whether they've written it down or it's been an oral tradition. if you look at the Iliad or the Odyssey or these really ancient poems, they will say, I think Hector, son of Priam, I think it's Hector and Priam, but you know, so that's always happened. I think putting together a society of people who were genealogists was a, you know, relatively recent thing in terms of the Society of Genealogists. And there are many different types of societies across the world where people have come together to do this. I mean, if you look back in the Bible, if you think about, you can see beautiful stained windows of the tree of Jesse and that is the whole sort of genealogy of Jesus. and so this is something that's been happening as long as there's been a father and a son.'cause obviously the women didn't come along till quite a lot later. So people have always been interested in where they're from, and who they are. And obviously we look at royal lines, we look at kings and queens. You know, it's been very important in that. Carving up a power in a sense of who do you give, who do you give what to. And in terms of estates, I mean there's been all sorts of rules about, the first son gets this amount, the second son gets this, the last son goes off to war because there's nothing left for him. So that, we've always had this sense of sort of hierarchy and family history in a sense of knowing, who we are. And this is the whole thing about heraldry as well. If we look at coats of arms, and part of what I'm studying for my masters is also heraldry, which is really exciting'cause I've always wanted to dabble in that. So I've got a good excuse now.
Hameed:Wait, heraldry is that what in Game of Thrones, when they're saying House of Stark
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. it's the, the coat of arms Yeah. Shows you, which, originally, I think it was for battle, so that the knights could see which side you were on. families are entitled to a coat of arms, but they have to prove that they're entitled to it. through genealogy. this is what they've had to do sometimes and said, this is, we are of this family and we can prove it.
Hameed:Yeah, I think you mentioned that it had some, something to do with the Mormons in the beginning.
Dr-Wanda:no, not in the beginning, but the Mormons believe that you need to trace your ancestors so that you can seal them into the church. So they have gone around the world and they have microfilmed or microfiched or copied birth records, marriage records, all of these records. And they've really been a huge spur behind, a huge driver behind a lot of genealogy. And the biggest genealogy conference, happens in Utah, in Salt Lake City, at the end of February, beginning of March every year. And I've been really honored to go and speak there twice, and I'm going again in March.
Hameed:Amaizing!
Dr-Wanda:they've got this huge library in a mountain where they've kept the records. I mean, I'd love to get in there, but I'm not high enough up to, to be able to get into that record mountain.
Hameed:Sumaira, did you have anything you wanted to share about this so far?
Sumaira:I was just reflecting on my own experiences when you were talking about, we all kind of try, creating our own family trees, and I've always got stuck when it came to my great grandparents, and I've never been satisfied. Like, there's definitely so much more, and, in my family, our surnames have changed according to status. and then we all eventually became Patels, you know, I'm from India and there's no official records even of my, grandma's, birth, etc So I've always felt like there's no hope, but I feel like maybe there is and I'm keen to learn more.
Dr-Wanda:Oh, that's great. we start with births, marriages, deaths, and you know, generally those religious records or state records because the state is recording that. But I think the thing about genealogy is, if you go to. The big sites, which I'm not gonna mention for advertising, obviously, I don't know, you might, I might be able to, it's not the bbc. but you put your details in and they give you this little green leaf that comes up and it's a hint that, they might have found a record. And a lot of people start on that and get really enthusiastic and then just follow these hints and think they've built their family tree. And I have to admit, I did that. I got back to 1500 roughly following these hints, and now I've actually gotta go back and do the real work. But I think one of the things about this that is, that it's actually a skill. It's something you have to learn about. you can do a lot with those birth marriages and deaths, but you're then looking at things like, were there any. Directories of shops, of services, of anything like that, that maybe, if somebody owned a shop, they would be in that directory. There's things like school records. in the UK you've got things like poor law records. So if you were poor and you had to be given relief by the parish or you were given some money, then you would be in that record. there's just so many different types of records. If your family is in the military in any way. It's brilliant because they wrote everything down. you've got widows pensions, you've got pay, all sorts of things. So it's about really thinking what sort of records were around at the time. If there were any, it may be that there weren't, but how else were things recorded? how else did people know? And in some areas you're not gonna find anything. I don't think I'm gonna get much further than, 1800 in Barbados because, before that it's going back to Africa and I, that is really difficult to look at. People have done it, but, it's a whole other story.
Hameed:Yeah, definitely. and I told you this earlier on, but I just wanted to share it again for the purposes of our listeners, with regards to genealogy I mean, I wasn't like crazy interested, but a few times when I was interested and I would speak to my mom about, oh, her parents and grandparents and where they came from, so she understands where her parents came from and the areas that they came from. And it was one of the provinces in the Yoruba land that maybe, I think. Either her, not her parents, but her grandparents or great-grandparents were part of the, royalty or the ABBA of those provinces. you know, Yoba land is massive. there's an empire, but there's tons of provinces in that empire. every province has like a ruler. And, I think that's why there's this, joke about Nigerians thinking, oh, there were Prince or, you know, princess or whatever. But it's from that and, so she knows more about her side. But, about my dad's side, she doesn't know much about it, but I think she did share because they're from similar areas and they're from similar areas in Yoruba land, which is Ikbaja. but her parents came from aru, which is another nearby place, and. She doesn't know much about what my dad does, but based on my surname, which means to bin something together that is very strong and not unbounded, I was estimating that way. Does that mean we, we are blacksmiths where we creators of things where we like our, yeah, basically making tools. But that's how, that's as far as I got with regards to this whole genealogy thing. I think if I was truly interested in it, I'd have to go disturb my dad as well and be
Dr-Wanda:Yeah.
Hameed:tell me about not your parents, but your grandparents and where they came from and like, try to figure it all back. but I guess I've never really paid that much attention to it. And I, and that leads me to my next question as to, why is genealogy so important for us, as a people, as humans, but also as, people of color also as black people? Like why is it so important?
Dr-Wanda:that's a really good question. I almost feel that genealogy and family history has been kept away from us on purpose because when we find our roots, when we find. our line Of ancestry and whether it comes from princes or not. I mean, I, my DNA is Nigerian, so I'm hoping I'm descended from a prince as well. We might even be related, who knows? But when we do that, we find that power. and when we know whose we are, we know who we are. And so it's really powerful to do that. as I said, my dad left when I was two and I didn't have a great relationship with him. But actually over the last year, I've had a much better relationship with his side of the family, and with him, because I've been looking at our family history and, I've been to Barbados once I did meet my grandfather, before he died, but I never really felt that connected to that side of the family. But going back and seeing, where they were from seeing their records, has really made me feel completely differently. And I think it fills that hole. It fills that gap that some of us have. And I think one of the most scandalous things about empire, about colonialism, about slavery is that they robbed us of our history. and That is something, that is really powerful when you take people's history away. and that for me is, really drives me in a sense because I think if we can look at the records, if we can, speak to our grandparents, our parents, and, even just to get a couple of generations back, it gives us that knowledge of where we've come from, what they've been through, what they've had to live through so that we can live our lives. And as I said, you find these relatives and you just feel something really, you know, some real connection. And that's really precious. And I think, coming back to what you were saying, Sumaira, about surnames, there's a. one name study group at the guild of one name studies, and they are people who will focus on a surname and they will do, where do these surnames come from? is everybody with this surname come from this whole area or other different branches? And with my surname, Viportska. There are about 50 families in the world that have that surname. So it would be very easy to do that. And then it will probably lead back to the village where my grandfather was born, where most of the people in the cemetery are called Veporski or Viportska. So sometimes, surnames come from particular areas and that's another way that you can trace back without looking at records. but if you don't know who you are, there's always something missing, I think. And it's something to pass on to your children. when we become parents, sometimes when people become parents or when their parents die, that's when they start thinking about family history.'cause they suddenly think, I can't just ask my grand, I can't just ask my mom. that whole knowledge is gone. So I always say, do it now while our parents and grandparents are still here. Talk to them now. record them, write it down, but squeeze that information out of them.
Sumaira:Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I was just thinking, we speak a lot about reclaiming our history as people of the global majority. And, by doing that we can empower ourselves. And I think this is just part of that as well. And I love when you said, if we know whose we are, we know who we are. And, I think, that's gonna stick with me. it's really powerful. But yeah, you know, we would've had so many different characters, like you said, in our family, people we resonate with, people we align with, and the more we know, the more power we have.
Hameed:Amazing. I agree. genealogy, and so the importance of this is really leans into empowering ourselves. And, that contributes to the mindset shift that we're trying to achieve, with this podcast, which is, to empower Africans, and people of African descent globally. so you are currently studying genealogy. you're doing a Masters in it. What is the plan afterwards? I know you wanna do a project or are you just studying it for fun? Tell me.
Dr-Wanda:When I see those homework deadlines, it doesn't feel like fun. But yeah, when I was at the Society of Genealogists, I was trying to organize a conference on black genealogy, and then I was headhunted and I went to work at the Black Equity Organization and I thought, great, I can take the conference with me because, you know, it's a black people conference, so let's do that. and then I left there and I was, talking to our friend, and he said to me, you're just so passionate about genealogy. You have to do something about this. I'm always thinking, because, I've always been in the charitable sector or the voluntary sector, and so I'm thinking, we'll do a conference, but we need funding. We need this and that. And, Viv just said. Just start building it and people will come, don't have the big master plan. And so I would absolutely love to run an organization that empowers people through genealogy, that trains'em how to do it that brings people together. Because I sort of thought, is this just me? Is it just, you know, I'm obsessed with this and nobody else is, but I can guarantee you every black and brown person I spoke to said, oh my God, we'd love to do this. and there were brilliant people like Selena Carte at Black Poppy, you know, there are people who were doing this. And ironically it was when Roots was, televised in the seventies. That people started to say, oh, we can trace, you know, there was a big interest in genealogy and not from black people, but from white people. So in a way, we've sort of kickstarted this again, and I think, as I said, it's the mental health aspect of it as well. Because I think that a lot of young people, if they were looking at this, not just sitting in a library, but, talking about this, seeing where their family's from, interviewing their elders or talking to people who are older in the community, I think they just feel a bit of that connection and it would empower them as well. you know defenitly, I hope that, so there's lots to do.
Hameed:No, I agree a hundred percent. I feel like especially when we talk about young people There's so many young people right now in the diaspora that aren't as connected to their heritage, the motherland, their home as they should be. And I feel like, doing something like this, they could benefit incredibly from it. and, it's a great way to ground and like you said, the whole mental health aspects, having a strong sense of identity I think is powerful. And I think this can help it. And I agree with Viv with regards to let's do it. what I've been thinking lately is that, I feel like businesses have more power than foundations and charity. I think that's pretty clear. Corporations have more power, right? If you want to impact the world and you wanna change something, going the corporation route usually will result in you having more power in the end. Then. I'm not knocking charities a foundations, but. they usually have to ask and, request and basically ask for donations. Whereas corporations, they decide what's happening and they have the power to make it happen. And, yeah, I, that's what, that's what I wanna say about that. And I'm definitely a hundred percent happy to jump on board and help you in any way I can with that. because I think this is powerful. I would like to know, I don't know how you're gonna help people like myself, who I don't think we have records. so because it's all been like an OR thing, so I don't know how that's gonna happen, but maybe I can quickly get this information from my mom and write it down and
Dr-Wanda:then
Hameed:call
Dr-Wanda:my dad That's always the first step. write down your parents, their brothers and sisters, because sometimes you might find information when you go through a sister or a brother. Rather than just trying to go through your parents. so there's lots of different ways to do this, but I think also if we've got the will to do this and we come together, then we can find, what are the roots in Nigeria? where would you go to find this information out? What other records and ways of looking at this are out there?'cause it isn't just about written records. I mean, that's the area that I know because that's what I do. But, you know, these oral traditions, I mean, as my friend said, he said he should be able to recite the 15 generations, but he can't. So he asks his cousin, you
Sumaira:Yeah.
Dr-Wanda:but then he said, quite often people meet and they recite their generations and then they find a common ancestor they know that maybe 10 generations back, they have the same grandfather or grandmother, and then they know that they're related in that, much wider sense. But it's really being creative about thinking. Where do you find people. why are people visible either in a written record or in an oral record, or, thinking about why records were made that gets you to people?'cause you are, you're searching for people, not just names. and that's gonna be different in all sorts of places.
Hameed:do you think anything needs to change with the way we are currently doing it in Africa or, Barbados or any other places that aren't the west? Do you think anything needs to change with the way we are recording this information?
Dr-Wanda:I think there's a big issue about preservation of records because, I know for example, recently there was a fire in the Barbados archives. I know that obviously in, I mean, I'm talking about the Caribbean, but I think some of these things might be the same in some African countries where the records are there. you know, the weather. You have a hurricane, you have a storm, or quite simply there's not money there to actually keep things in the conditions they need to be in. so actually we are generally quite grateful in a sense, to the Mormons for having made microfilms and microfiche of things because there are records, you know, that they've done that maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago. And the records are now destroyed. So we don't have the original record. what Western countries can do as well, is share their expertise in these areas. because, to put it bluntly, it's the least they can do, quite frankly, so that we can preserve our history. And there are different projects where people will transcribe some of the records and put them online so that we've got more access to it. if you look at the slave registers, unfortunately, but those are also on family search. and you can see, the names, the plantations, the owners, the ages, some origins. There won't be surnames of people. But, I was looking at a register in Barbados and, as confident as I probably could be, that I did find an entry of one of my ancestors because I knew the plantation that he was on, he was born on. and I could look at those plantation records. it's incredible what you can find. And people have done this.
Hameed:Yeah, for sure. this is a great segue into talking about how this practice of genealogy can actually impact the conversation among reparations because this, the second time you've mentioned how, you are able to trace the plantation owner, and you know, how much money he was paid or she was paid, I don't know, to free your ancestors and like, this is not too far away. You know, this is like two or three generations ago, Let's unpack that a little bit. let's talk a little bit about how, this can affect the conversation amount. Reparations, especially in the Americas in general.
Dr-Wanda:Yeah, and I mean it's really fascinating'cause I was in the US last year and it was interesting for me because the conversation about enslavement and slavery was very much focused on the us. And they didn't ever mention Africa or the Caribbean, and I was kind of jumping up and down going, hello. Where do you think people were coming from? But it was so focused on America, and I can understand that because it happened on American soil,
Hameed:And South America as well. Funny, they didn't mention Brazil,'cause that's terrible. It was terrible over there in South America,
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. if you look at the round trees, the chocolatier, you know, they have big plantations in Brazil. there's huge, massive enslaved population in Brazil as well. if you look at this, you can see that, for example, it was only a few generations away. you know, the trading in slaves was abolished in 1807, but it didn't mean you couldn't still have slaves. So in order to actually end the slave trade. the British government paid the plantation owners to, free in inverted commas their slaves. and because of that, they had to have a register of the slaves. So they started their registers in 1813. They had to write down all of the slaves they had, and then three years later, they would have to look at the difference and say, who died? Who had they sold? How many slaves did they have? And that was so that they could ensure that they weren't actually buying new slaves or that it wasn't happening. Now, you know, how much credence you give to that, but it means that we've got these records for a lot of islands and a lot of places of the people. And it's really quite traumatic when you read them, when I go through these registers, I always just read people's names in a way of honoring them and to say, we see you, we know what you went through. You know, you're just having a moment of being, being alive again in a sense, and honored. but. Also, we've got the records, and these are online as well, of who owned the plantations because they would go to the British government and say, well, we've got six slaves, three women, one child, two men, of working age. And they'd calculate how much they were worth and then they would be paid by the British government. And the awful thing about this, as you know, I mean it's all awful, but the British government had to take out so much money to pay this. They had to borrow so much money that British taxpayers, including me, were still paying that debt back. We, my taxes were contributing towards that debt up until 2015.
Hameed:What?
Dr-Wanda:So I'm paying in my taxes
Hameed:your joking!
Dr-Wanda:For the loan that was paid to the people who owned my ancestors instead of my ancestors.
Hameed:How did we not know this? How is this not public knoledge knowledge?
Dr-Wanda:You know, the funny thing is I think the treasury, a while back, tweeted something about this and really didn't realize what a reaction they were gonna get. everybody was saying,
Sumaira:when it first came out and everybody was like, what? Like what?
Hameed:the British tax payer were paying. For the loan that a British took out to, to pay slave owners. Even though slavery is a, you see what I mean? Capitalism is always going to drive what is going to drive? I feel like all this talk, oh, I'm just gonna be honest here. I feel like all this talk about morality and all slavery was wrong and it wasn't, it was our ancestors. I think it's all bs. I think they're lying and I feel like they're doing whatever they would do whatever money requires. And this just goes to show because if they were doing that up until 2015, even though they knew slavery was wrong,'cause like why are you making us pay for, you should be going to the people that you paid the money to and getting money off them.
Dr-Wanda:Well, and that's what our fantastic prime minister of Barbados, Mia Motley, I love that woman. I mean she's saying that she's really up for reparations and there's a plantation still on Barbados, Owned by Drax and the mp, I think his name's Richard Drs. is one of the wealthiest people in the south of England. And she's saying, we want reparations. that direct connection. And that's what I'm talking about when we talk about reparations. Because if I can trace my family to the plantation and I know who the plantation owner was, I can trace his family down.
Hameed:Exactly
Dr-Wanda:I can see who owes me that money,
Hameed:Yeah. Like we can get logical with this. we can get, we can. This is maths, you know? We can
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. It's maths and genealogy.
Hameed:yeah.
Sumaira:This is why it's important, Hameed, when you are asking about the importance
Hameed:Yes. This is one of the reasons why it's important. I find that just flabbergasting that The fact that they thought that was okay And didn't anyone ask them, why didn't you just go to,'cause no, we know slavery was wrong. We know this thing shouldn't have happened. Why didn't you go to the people that the plantation owners and get that money back and get them to pay back? Like that would've been the smart thing to do. from the British government's perspective,
Dr-Wanda:well, I mean, I think it's because, in 18, 13 34, they took out this money, which is I think the equivalent of something like 85 billion or something ridiculous like that. don't quote me on that, but they took out that loan and paid the slave owners. Then the government's been paying that loan back ever since. And of course, any loan that the government's paying comes outta taxpayer's money. So it's not like I'm directly paying the government, but my taxes, have gone towards that loan or anybody's taxes, not just mine, but a small proportion of that has gone towards that loan. we know who some of the families are.
Hameed:Who are some of the families? Let's put some of like, let's, who are some of these families that are still benefiting from owning slaves,
Dr-Wanda:well, Drax I mean, I think the thing is, you know, when you think about, and you just mentioned capitalism, what happened was we were enslaved. We went through emotional and physical torture. the strongest and fittest survived. And then we were left on an island that had been looted. All of it's, very much like Africa had been looted for everything. So we are left on these islands. Those rich white people have left and taken all of the money that they've earned off the back of our enslavement. and they've taken it back to the UK or to France or wherever they were. And then their descendants have lived great lives, well I'm generalizing here, but they've had that money. Whereas we have had to start from enslavement, build that up. And that's why when people say, oh yeah, it was a long time ago,
Hameed:It's so annoying,
Dr-Wanda:it's not a long time ago. And that the fact that we were just looted and then left, you know, after slavery means that it's taken generations and generations for us to try and build things up on islands where we're not necessarily in charge of the resources sometimes.
Hameed:Yeah. you know, when people say stuff like that, do you know what, it makes my blood boil? in my head, I know that it's probably because they're not, they're ignorant of the reasons behind it, the ignorance of the history, which is why history is so damn important. but I don't have the patience to teach you about that history. So when they say stuff like that, it's just annoys me. And I'm like, right now I'm so. Angry that I can't even talk to you about the history and explain to you why. I feel like we need people who have that calm, that can always have the patience to educate someone when they say something stupid like, oh, you know, it was a long time ago. Get over it. You know, stuff like that. Like I just, we need people like you. Dr. Wanda. Sumaira Are you calm when people say that? can you take your time to explain and educate?
Sumaira:his context dependent, I would say I become quite passionate.
Hameed:Yeah. Not me though. I don't have that, but yeah. Okay, cool. I'm processing everything you've said did you come across any wild stories whilst you were doing the genealogy? like, did someone find someone in their past that was like, oh, wow, you know, this type of thing. So any interesting stories that you came across in your time?
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. it's interesting, isn't it? Because, If you find a murderer in your family, three or four generations back then it's really quite exotic and quite funny, you know, whereas you probably wouldn't think that if it was your dad or your, or your cousin or something. So, time does make these things different. I mean, I think for me, I found a great grandmother who could be a freed negro who owned slaves. for me that was absolutely okay, what do I do about this? I mean, you can argue it was economics of the time. So it was better for her not to be enslaved and to have slaves. You can, they might be her relatives, I don't know. She may have bought them. but also I think, anybody who comes from Caribbean is almost certain, somewhere to have been, to have had relatives or ancestors who were, the children of a slave owner and a slave. An enslaved person. So we can't avoid that because that is what was happening. and I think it's, it really blurs the lines, doesn't it? Because if you are descended from slave owners who got that payment and you are descended from enslaved people, you're kind of asking yourself for that payment in a sense, aren't you? So it's not always as simple as it looks. someone like Peter Brathwaite has done some really great, research and been able to find on the Coddington estate. he was descended from one of the white people in Barbados who made up the slave code, so,
Hameed:Who made up the slave code like wrote
Dr-Wanda:the law. Yeah, the slave code was about how you should treat slaves and what, know, what you should do, this sort of thing. So for him, that's deeply awful. but yeah, when I look through the registers and I see names, you know, we know about Cumberbatch. Cumberbatch was on, Barbados. you know, I look and I see things like twit. I see, you know, I think they, there's a family of Tiwis that make shirts. there's names of my friends, I see names like Rollick. So Professor Nicola Rollick, who's a historian of Black history. I see Colomore, Stan Colomore. You know, you see these names and I think it wasn't always the case that we took slave holders names. my father's name is Holmes. I don't know. I haven't seen a Holmes who was the plantation owner, but it might be a few generations before that. So it's really fascinating coming back to surnames and what you were saying, Sumaira, tracing through what is the meaning of the name, how are we given those names? And you were talking about, your name, having a specific meaning
Sumaira:Mm.
Dr-Wanda:and so looking at these things can give us clues. I mean, back in the day, a Cooper was somebody who made barrels. We've got lots of smiths because of blacksmiths or all sorts of things. So, those names can still carry meanings in some cultures.
Hameed:Definitely. we've just spoken about the Caribbean, right? We've spoken about the Caribbean, spoken a little bit about South America, but then, the African Americans, the ones in the USA. who basically, if they were to do this and follow the line of genealogy, it would go back to the time that their ancestors arrived on the land. Right. But I don't know if this is politically correct to say Summa, help me if I go wrong, but I feel like the African Americans are like more lost, with regards to identity, with regards to connecting to their, roots than we are those that are still connected to the motherland. and I feel that genealogy can only take them so far. They will still be lost because they'll be like, okay, so I know the ancestor that arrived. Kind of, but then I wanna go all the way back to the culture. I wanna find out where in Africa I'm from, you know? So I'm guessing this is where DNA comes in, right? Or can Genealogists do go cross that ocean and reach the other continent?
Dr-Wanda:Well, I mean, that's a good one. There's a lot in there. my impression is that for African Americans, because slavery happened on their land, you know, where they are and where they still are, it feels very different. I'm in the uk it's very different. If I was living in Barbados, I think it will be different for me. so you're a bit removed. But also because when there was a census, for example, African Americans weren't counted as a person,
Hameed:Back in the days? Yeah.
Dr-Wanda:Yeah. we had them, 1841 1851 1861 in the uk, of the households. I dunno when the dates were for the American ones, but I remember listening to, Henry Lewis Gates Jr. Who's a absolute expert in the US saying that, for some people they couldn't get back. Further than about 1850 or, even sort of 1870, because we weren't people.
Hameed:I see.
Dr-Wanda:But on the other hand, you know, I know that for example, there were slaves taken from Barbados to South Carolina. so there were particular when people moved. And I think when you think about DNA, it's the same sort of thing for me. I've done lots of DNA tests, and I just have to say this, please don't take a DNA test unless you're prepared to see the results. Because in genealogy We really, work on the assumption that about 25% of the fathers are not the actual biological fathers fathers and of course, the further you go back with different morays, different cultures and, all sorts of things happening, that's more likely. I have an number of friends who've taken DNA tests and found out, their father isn't their father or their mother isn't their mother. So please, if you're gonna do this, be prepared. but DNA is an amazing thing. if you look at DNA, you can look at paternal patrilineal, DNA, and if you do father, a father, you can actually get back thousands, if not tens of thousands of years.
Hameed:Oh, wow.
Dr-Wanda:a female has two x, has X chromosomes, a male has a Y and an X, and the Y chromosome, because there's only a little bit of it that changes. But if you trace that little bit, that changes, you can trace back to different regions, different peoples, different communities. So that's the kind of golden thing that we can use to get ourselves back to parts of Africa or different communities, because they may have been nomadic. So that is absolutely fascinating because you can see, where you've come from.
Hameed:Yeah. I mentioned this to you earlier, but my fear with DNA has always been around privacy data, putting this information in the hands of the Western corporate organizations, private organizations that own it, and what are they gonna use that data to do, and how does it affect, like, oh, it's a scary, what would you say is to that.
Dr-Wanda:I absolutely agree and I understand those fears. like anything you, you're making a calculated risk for me. The benefit of doing this and being able to find relatives, and particularly across Barbados, I have an ancestor who is said to have had about a hundred children. Uh, you know, so I could be raised, but I can find those matches across DNA if people have done the tests as well. and for me, I really want to do this and I'm really passionate about it. For me that risk is there, but what I get out of it outweighs that. but you're very right. I mean, there has been a data breach, in one of the companies and, if you think about this and you think about ethnic profiling or you think about what would've happened if DNA tests had been available in the second World War, we've got to think of the morals and the ethics of this. But again, it's a case of if you were adopted for example, and you wanted to do a DNA test to try and find your family, then you're gonna think that, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Hameed:definitely.
Dr-Wanda:I have to say. There are quite strict privacy rules, when you're doing DNA tests about how they're keeping the data and who has access to it and who doesn't. I need to say that, otherwise I'll never be invited to a genealogy conference again by any of major players
Hameed:Yeah. But, and that's something else I was gonna say, you can be as specific as you want on this podcast. I'm not trying to hold anything back. when you say there was a data breach at a particular company, you could say the company's name. I don't mind. It when we talk about using that data for other things, I think when we were having a discussion earlier, you told me about there was an occasion That DNA data was used to catch a serial killer in the US at some point. And, people were happy about it until they realized what we didn't sign up for our DNA to be handed over to the police to be used for, this type of thing. and I think you mentioned another one, I can't remember now my head, but these types of things, I believe is what people need to weigh up in terms of like, benefit versus the risk I think it's amazing. I think being able to do that and trace that back is amazing. and a part of me wants to do it, but then a part of me is also actually, first of all, I don't need to do it. Luckily, I'm one of the few that didn't, not few. I'm one of the many that, that didn't get transported in transatlantic slavery. So, so I know where my ancestors are from, but I would still love to do it because even within, I. Yorba land. we are from quite up north in Yorba Land, so we could have been mixed with people from the Hausa side of things. We could have been mixed with the Fulani who are a nomadic tribe all over West Africa. I would like to know, more, but I'm afraid of putting all my data in the hands of those that I don't really trust. Those that I've done my people badly over hundreds of years. And, they've proven to us through their action what they think about us. So it's like I'm giving them all power. I mean, that's just how I think about it when I'm trying to think about this. But that's why if you, someone like yourself was to start something like this, and I knew that it was, this was owned by us, and you're not beholden to what the Western governments want you to do. I feel like if an African. Or a black person based in a country that isn't based in an African country was to do something similar. I would be more up for it. I would be more like, okay, it's us. We own our own data and so on.
Sumaira:I totally agree. As in if we are the people who create these organizations and systems, there's a lot more trust. But we know from the leaders in African countries as well and some of the corruption that even if that data was in Africa, doesn't necessarily. Equate to sense of security because the people, and their experiences right now, like the disparities between people in the government and the individuals who are struggling in those countries. I just wanted to put out there. Hameed as like food for thought.
Hameed:Yeah, definitely. When we had the conversation with, Kawthar the other psychologist, I kept saying African leaders, she mentioned something about, I'm gonna butcher how she said it. Well, basically it came down to the fact that I was like, oh my God, I didn't think about it. African leaders are probably mentally ill because they're doing things against the interest of their own people or their own kind. How does she do it?
Sumaira:Yeah. I was gonna say maybe not like that. I think she was talking about like, psychology can be a very white Eurocentric from a very Eurocentric lens and the way we formulate mental health difficulties. And I think she gave examples of other alternative ways of formulating people. And one of them was, I can't remember the name right now, but, a scholar who formulated something around leaders being self-centered and where that might be coming from. And as we know in psychology, everything is about hypothesizing and formulating. So that was just one of the hypothesis that they're very, like, focused on themselves. But some people might see that and formulate that as part of a spectrum of mental health difficulties.
Hameed:Nah, I don't like the way you're describing it as far as I'm concerned. they're doing things against their own interest. If they were to deep it and they were to think about it properly, they'll be like, I'm actually doing something against my own interest. and it's like self hate
Sumaira:Yeah, but that's what it isn't it? It's about formulating people's understanding of people's behavior, you could formulate it in any way that you can, but I think you can't officially diagnose anybody.
Hameed:Oh, yeah. no. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, so I can say whatever I want.
Sumaira:I'm just giving you perspectives.
Hameed:I know. I'm joking. I'm joking
Sumaira:yeah, yeah. No, I trying protect Kawthar a bit.
Hameed:definitely. Obviously that episode's gonna go out before this, so hopefully people would know and listen to it. I wanted to just quickly talk, briefly about the work you're doing at Safe Passages, right now. how did you get into that? tell me a little bit more about it, if possible.
Dr-Wanda:Okay. And there is a DNA link that I'm gonna bring up, actually.
Hameed:Okay.
Dr-Wanda:I've always had a massive interest in the refugee sector because my grandfather came to the UK as a Polish refugee after the second World War. He was fighting in the Polish Air Force and, settled in the uk And then my dad came over as part of Windrush. So I'm a daughter of Windrush I've just always had this passion for being able to support this area of work. And when the job at Safe Passage came up, I just thought, oh wow. I've tried, I have, it has to be said. I did apply for a job as Chief Exec at another. Wellknown refugee organization and didn't get it, but was quite close. and then when this came up, and I was the interim CEO and then they were looking for a permanent CEO as well. And I said, look, this is an amazing organization. Please, can you consider me for the permanent role? and they did. And we've got offices in Paris, in Athens, so we can support people in those countries as well, who've managed to get across the Mediterranean. we are doing work in Sudan, in Gaza. we had a, quite well publicized, return of a young, well not return, a young boy who, we managed to get out of Gaza and to reunite with his family. And this is about working with unaccompanied minors, working with children, working with vulnerable refugees to reunite them with families. and I can't think of anything better.
Hameed:Amazing.
Dr-Wanda:I would want to be doing. And one of the thing that I found out about DNA, which was interesting is that, when people are making applications, and especially if they're children, if you have, for example, someone who's in the UK and they're trying to get their brother, let's say, or their sister over, then you have to prove that you have a relationship. And I was absolutely horrified that DNA is used in this way, and there's no counseling for people or anything. There's just a sort of, oh, this is a result. Yeah, they're your brother or they're not, or whatever. And I, you know, I've got a kind of mini campaign coming on, obviously, because in genealogy we have lots of groups, lots of Facebook groups, there are counselors, and as if you're adopted and you're looking for your family, there's support there. But in this particular area, it's just seen as a scientific. Proof method. And there are areas of age assessment, which are things like, measuring somebody's wrist or, you know, age assessment is a really disputed area. And especially for young black and Asian people, because we know about ification, we know that, people are gonna say, oh, you're an adult when actually they're 14 or 15. it's like life, isn't it? All of these things overlap. so, yeah, I think this is such an incredible, incredibly amazing job. I wish I didn't have it because I wish we didn't need to do this. but as long as I do then, it's a privilege to be able to play a small part in supporting people to do this really important work.
Hameed:I definitely wanna say thank you, grateful for people like you. people like Sumaira. Sumaira also works in a similar field. people like the both of you who are like, your daily job is to actually help people and change people's lives for the better. And that's impressive. that's what we should all be striving for on a daily basis. So thank you. Thank you very much Dr. Pender for that. I wanted to ask one more question as we're getting to the end of the podcast. so as someone who has dedicated their lives to exploring identity and history, what do you hope the future generations will take from your work? Like, what legacy are you hoping to live behind?
Dr-Wanda:Oh, it seems quite vain to think of a legacy.
Hameed:Leave one behind regardless. So which one do you want to live behind?
Dr-Wanda:That's true. I think I want. The next generations to feel the power of that belonging. because it's something that I didn't feel, I don't feel like I belong in Barbados. I don't feel like I'm bajan. I feel I've had so many years where I've not really known who I am. and I still don't really know who I am, but I have to make peace with that. So I want them to have the power of knowing and of being able to choose who they want to be, but choose who they wanna be, knowing what all of the options are. I want them to, I want them to do their family history, and then I want'em to go to Barbados, and then I want'em to go to Africa. And I want them to be in a place where they are the majority. I've never lived anywhere where most of the people look like me
Sumaira:Mm-hmm.
Dr-Wanda:And that has to have an effect on you.
Hameed:definitely.
Dr-Wanda:yeah, know your family so that you can know yourself. I think is, would just be the best thing.
Hameed:Amazing. and, just to follow up on that, how can we make tools like genealogy and DNA more accessible to, our people, to marginalized communities and help them reclaim their history? what practical advice can we give to them to help them try to achieve what we, what you've just said?
Dr-Wanda:Well, talk to your parents, talk to your grandparents, anyone in your family. there are lots of lessons on YouTube or on the Society of Genealogist website about taking you through sources. The family search source is free. you can look at those. and also, there are the big databases, there's ancestry, there's Find my past, there's, my Heritage, and they all have different sets of records on, so, think about just draw your basic family tree first and put as many of your cousins brothers, all of that and just sit and look and think, okay, who's still alive? Who can I talk to? And also they are, they're passing on their history to you, and you are learning things about them and about the times that they live through that are gonna help you and are gonna support you. Sometimes when you think about what people have been through and you're going through a hard time, we can all sit there and think, okay, we can get through this. We've done this before. So, yeah, it's really powerful to hear those stories and to be interested.
Hameed:Amazing. and when you said draw your own family history. It triggered something in my head because as you said that I was like, okay, if I was to do that, what tool would I use? I'd probably use like Miro or Escal Draw. I'm just thinking of Tech Tools that allows me to Canva. so that I could, I was trying to visualize it, but I was like, shouldn't there be a tool that makes this thing easy already?'cause I was thinking if I did that, it would get pretty messy. I won't be able to track stuff or search. So maybe I need to create a database, but I'm like, no, I'm probably not a database. I'm like, isn't there a tool that allows this
Sumaira:This is just Hameed's mind. He, I Know exactly where his going with that
Dr-Wanda:as you were saying that, I was just thinking I have a fountain pen here. This is my first tool that I write things down with. but you're right, as part of my masters, I'm getting to grips with, a software package called Family Tree Maker. And you can put the sources in, you can put notes in, you can draw up charts, you can do all sorts of things.'cause you're right, you go back a few generations and I mean, my notes honestly, they're just absolutely all over the place because I'm a paper person. I love stationary. I'm now having to train myself to actually be focused on this and to do this a step at a time because I just went mad and wrote everything down and then had to go back to it and couldn't remember what I'd done in the first place and wasted so much time. So, family Tree Maker Legacy, there's lots of different software packages for family history, for genealogy.
Hameed:do those software packages allow connections with other people? So if I, for example, had a family tree maker account, created my family tree, and then I let my cousin, I. My third cousin or something do the same thing. Can we then connect our accounts and link between people and be like, oh yeah, this is auntie, whatever. Connect to your uncle over there. Can we like make it a big like brainstorming type of mind map, amazing experience. Can do those tools, do that?
Dr-Wanda:So, most people do their trees on ancestry. and so you can let people into it and you can merge, data from different trees. It's quite dangerous'cause if you haven't done your checking, you end up with a whole load of stuff that somebody else has done that might not be right and trust me, I've been there. So it's very easy to go, oh yeah, great, they've done six generations. And then you suddenly think, actually it wasn't that George Smith, it was another George Smith. so do be careful when you're doing that. There's a really brilliant piece of software out now. it's a website called We are X, Y, ZI think. And this is exactly what it allows you to do. So it allows everybody to be in the same space. And then it allows you to upload things like pictures or you know, like you might have your auntie's favorite, cooking spoon. And then you put a picture of that up and someone else says, oh, I remember when she did this, and whatever. And it just brings these memories. So it's a repository and an archive for a family to put all of their stuff together and also to create videos and things now so that, if I was going on holiday with my son, I could do a little video and then the generations after me, we'll see, oh, that's when they went to Barbados, for example. it's a really brilliant, website that I absolutely love and that's perfect for diaspora families
Hameed:What website is it?
Dr-Wanda:it's called We are, and think it's XY zt com or something like that. But it is really great because, when I look at my Global Homes family WhatsApp, I'm gonna have to go back through that and say, auntie Marcia was this and this, and go back through like years of people saying what they were doing. But if you were all on that, you know, people in Florida, people in Barbados, people in the uk, all across the
Hameed:Everybody could work together.
Dr-Wanda:Everybody works together. Yeah. So I think that is the future the other thing is there is a file,'cause I know you wanna get technical, has a type of file, which is called a jed com file, and it's a file that, has all of that data in it about your family tree. So you can then give that file to somebody else or they can give it to you and you can merge things that way as well.
Hameed:Okay, good. the more you talk about it, the more I'm like, it reminds me of a graph database,
Sumaira:more practical.
Hameed:Yes. that's what I always default to, thinking practically and, the tech side of it.'cause that's what I'm working on. I'm working on tech startup. So tech side of it is always interesting me,
Sumaira:Yeah, because if it doesn't exist, Hameed will create it. That's the thing. Yeah.
Hameed:Very true.
Dr-Wanda:That's what I'm looking forward to. the new platform for black genealogy
Sumaira:Mm-hmm.
Hameed:hey,
Dr-Wanda:we.
Hameed:let's get to it. No problem. so yeah. And any questions from you, Sumaira'cause I feel like we're coming to the end.
Sumaira:Not really questions, just a lot of appreciation for such a rich and thoughtful conversation.'cause it's making me think that it is achievable for people of the global majority to connect to their roots, not only, through reclaiming their own histories or learning more about it, but also thinking about how do we preserve our identity for our future generations too. cause I have come across on like TikTok and other social medias of people, like question cards. Like before it's too late, questions to ask your mom and dad. And like, it keeps coming up re more recently and I'm thinking, okay, with everything social media people do start to think, okay, what we could do with this? So I think, people are thinking about it more and it can just be expanded so our future generations can just really know where they come from. Yeah.
Hameed:Yeah. I love that.
Dr-Wanda:It's really good to look forward as well.'cause we tend to, I'm always looking in the past, but I forget that actually, my grandchildren might wanna know about
Sumaira:Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Dr-Wanda:you know, what are they gonna find on the internet? That's scary, isn't it?
Sumaira:right?
Hameed:Oh God.
Dr-Wanda:yeah. be careful We gotta be careful
Hameed:Hey, for all we know, the internet might not exist in the way it does today with the way tech is going. we might not even have computers. It might all just be in our head. Might neuro link. You know, you never know.
Dr-Wanda:Keep Hold my phantom pen and my paper. You know if electricity goes'm still fine.
Hameed:definitely. Definitely. Well, thank you very much for your time today, Dr. Wanda. I really appreciate it. and we are going to put in the description link of this episode, all the work that you've done, any papers or books. Oh yeah. You've written a book as well. Your book, a link to your book is gonna be in the description. Any other papers that you've published or any links to the platform that we're gonna be working on?
Sumaira:Yeah, that's true. There might be listeners here who have ideas or want to, contribute in any way, we've talked about in previous podcast communities and utilizing the skills that we have in within our own community.
Hameed:Yeah. Work together. Let's bid together. that's what we're trying to do here, like foster community. if there are any listeners that can help with this, definitely get in touch and let us know. Alright, thank you.
Dr-Wanda:Thank you.