Episode 9: Live Session 2: Catching Up With Technology, Global Inequality, and The Power of Community

In this live episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, hosts Hameed and Sumaira discuss the last three episodes released on YouTube, touching on key themes such as the growing inequality gap between African nations and the West exacerbated by technology, India’s involvement in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the pressing need for the global black and African community to take an active role in the AI space. They engage with the live audience on topics including the importance of representation, the experiences of the African diaspora, and the impactful leadership of women in AI. The episode also explores identity, heritage connections, and how community can be a driving force in overcoming obstacles. Join us for an insightful, engaging conversation and be part of the Ronu Spirit community.

Transcript

The Inequality Gap and Technology

Hameed 0:00

the inequality gap between African nations and the west is amplified by technology, right? We are currently trying to catch up when AI is introduced those who have access to power and data are going to speed ahead and we are going to get even further left behind

Sumaira 0:17

we know where India stands when it comes to the genocide of Palestine I dunno if you've seen videos of Indians going quotation marks Israel occupied Palestine and being like, we are here to support you and the Israelis are like go home go back to where you've come from

Introduction to the Podcast

Hameed 0:41

hello everybody and welcome to our live episode of the Ronu Spirit podcast. and what we're gonna be doing on this particular episode, myself and Sumaira, is going through the last three episodes that we've released on YouTube and just trying to understand what exactly it is we learned from it, and then engaging with anybody that might be watching or listening in the comment section and having conversations

Platform Availability and Personal Preferences

Hameed 1:02

with the people,

Sumaira 1:02

By the way, it's YouTube and Spotify in terms of people wanting to access the podcast and listen to it.

Hameed 1:09

Yes, they can access it on YouTube, Spotify, but they can also do it on Apple music as well.

Sumaira 1:14

See, I'm very anti apple.

Hameed 1:15

Ah,

Sumaira 1:16

I don't associate, yeah.

Hameed 1:17

why

Sumaira 1:18

I just never

Startup Journey and Audience Engagement

Sumaira 1:19

have.

Hameed 1:19

Okay. And to be fair, this is just the beginning stages. This is just us doing it, and putting it out there. what's the word I'm looking for? Startup? Styley, entrepreneur, styley.

Sumaira 1:28

I like that.

Hameed 1:29

by that what I mean is we are literally just making it up as we go along, and fixing it and building as we grow. let's just see, let's just see what happens. Anyways, let's continue.

Sumaira 1:37

Should we wait until there's a bit of momentum or

Hameed 1:40

on a bit of momentum where

Sumaira 1:43

as in if people are engaging, if Charlie's going to return,

Hameed 1:46

I think he did, I think it's working. Charlie came back. Charlie said What happened? It's working. It's just delayed. Okay, so YouTube is working. YouTube is the most important thing. The Instagram guys are second class citizens.

Sumaira 1:56

No, we don't do classes at Thank you very much.

Hameed 2:00

Fine. We are back. Charlie said What happened? We are back Charlie. That's what happened. I messed up the live

Sumaira 2:08

doing laughing gas Charlie said are you doing laughing gas

Hameed 2:12

haha oh because thinks this is a balloon.

Sumaira 2:15

is it?

Hameed 2:16

He probably thinks this is a balloon. But yeah, anyways, it's fine. Okay. Do you know what's funny about, when I said that, the Instagram people are second class citizens on YouTube is where app, and you said, we don't do classes.

Black AI Futures Initiative

Hameed 2:26

It reminded me of something that Viv mentioned recently about black AI features. So black AI features for those, that don't know, is a new initiative that we are working on in the uk and it's basically trying to get more people from the global black and African community to build and own, products in the AI space. Because this is the new arms race. Like I truly believe that, and it is the future and we need to be building, we need to be taking part in it o otherwise the inequality gap is only gonna get higher. We're gonna get left behind a lot more and blah blah. Anyways, in that, we've mentioned, and I also agree with this,

Women in AI Leadership

Hameed 3:02

that. We need to maybe have women leading in this AI space. And why do you think that is, Samira? what do you think my reasoning is for thinking that maybe we're better if women will lead in the a in the AI space?

Sumaira 3:16

So you're putting me on the spot

Hameed 3:17

yeah

Sumaira 3:18

and this is your space. I think in terms of female leadership, like even if we look at it from a political perspective the qualities women have in leading is far more different to men?

Hameed 3:31

the qualities women have in leading and What qualities do you think I'm talking about?

Sumaira 3:35

I think, well, to be honest, it would also depend on many other factors, but like maybe seeing things outside the box and because women are usually left out in a lot of these spaces, when you've got a woman's voice in it, it's, if you are thinking about a woman, then you are also thinking about other people, if that makes sense.

Hameed 3:54

Okay. I mean, That's a good point. and from my perspective, this might be very generalistic and, but what I am thinking is a reason why we would have women in this space is because women tend to care more about people. They're not so narrowly focused on things and like they are more aware of people. And if there is a. A complaint or a issue with the way AI is going right now is the fact that it's just focused on things. It's just people expanding on what they can do with the technology and trying to move the technology forward so quickly and achieve whatever it is they need to achieve. obviously we live in a capitalist system that is basically, incentivizing us to put profits before everything else. So the people that are driving AI forwards are driving AI forwards for the purpose of profits, for the purpose of the capitalist system. And I was thinking if we had women leading women in charge for some reason, and I know this might be generalistic, but I feel like women in general are more intuned to society and what human beings want, and they wouldn't be so narrowly focused on just the profits. You know, some of them would think, actually, what about the people? And should we try to make sure that this is also beneficial for people as well? So that is an interesting point that, at least in my head, I'm thinking, I don't know if it's true, but I feel like women are more, caring for the people. Like they care about what people think, they care about, human relationships. So if they were leading the AI charge, they wouldn't just be putting profits, they wouldn't just be doing what the system incentivized. They would also be caring about,

Sumaira 5:26

Yeah,

Hameed 5:27

the people that are being hurt as well.

Sumaira 5:28

I think that's interesting and. If we're thinking about empathy as equality or care potentially. I see where you're coming from. I hear you. But I also just think it depends on someone's integrity and level of ethics as well. it depends what kind of women who go into those kind of roles who then care about the people. Yeah, of course. you made the point that it's a bit general, like the statement is a bit general, but I hear where you're coming from. yeah, for sure.

Hameed 5:56

Okay

Sumaira 5:56

I think, yeah, even politically, like, you know, if we look at female leaders,

Female Political Leaders

Hameed 6:01

Do we have female leaders in the world right now? And if so, where? let's Google it. Female leaders,

Sumaira 6:06

I know somewhere in the Netherlands region or whatever, there's this focus on a four day week led by a young woman within the parliament.

Hameed 6:15

several permanent women currently hold significant leadership positions around the world. In examples, this is Gemini. Can we really trust Gemini? It says, Georgia Maloney, prime Minister of Italy. Really? The prime minister of Italy is a woman, prime Minister of Denmark. Is that's the one you were talking about,

Sumaira 6:30

I think so. I.

Hameed 6:31

Lithuania. Go on. Okay. yeah, what point were you trying to make around that? Sorry.

Sumaira 6:36

No, I was just saying if we were to, obviously not looking at it from an evidence-based or stats perspective, but if we're thinking about female leadership and then we are looking at leadership within governments, I do tend to see a lot more positive, outcomes or, I don't know, campaigns for women.

Hameed 6:53

Positive campaigns from women.

Sumaira 6:54

Yeah.

Hameed 6:55

is that just bias though, do you think? do you think in general,

Sumaira 6:58

feel like

Hameed 6:59

is there

Sumaira 7:00

women would communicate and not just, there'll be less wars.

Hameed 7:03

Is that true though? I mean, what you've just said right now is like a, age old argument. are women

Sumaira 7:08

the same thing you're saying about AI as well, I suppose.

Hameed 7:11

Yes, I'm saying, but yeah, I'm saying it about AI because I know that right now they don't really care about the impact this is gonna have on society and they can't care about it because they're operating under a system that forces them to prioritize the money and how much money that will be made. unless there's something internal that forces them to care about this, you know, the impacts that this is gonna have on society, they're not gonna do it. And people in the Silicon Valley, they live in a real bubble. Like, it's just very, you know, I don't even know how to explain it. It's just very real.

Sumaira 7:44

I hear you. I guess because it's a man's world, if we're thinking about it, when women are in powerful positions or in leadership positions, I guess they consider beyond just the male. lens on what we should be doing in life because they're considering lived experiences. So like when they're petitioning for maternity leave or something to do with women's health, then obviously it's likely a woman is going to do that and campaign for that over maybe, a man in government, like for example, America and Roads, you know?

Hameed 8:17

Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Are you seeing my screen right now? Women's Equal Participation Leadership, da da. However, data shows that women are underrepresented all level decision making. Yeah, we know that. I'm just trying to find out if there's any data that says they are better at leading countries. Women are better at leading countries than than men Survey respond and say, what is this? 2022? Is this real US news? India had the largest share of respondents agreeing that countries led by women are better managed. Ooh, India. That's where you're from sumaira.

Sumaira 8:44

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 8:45

which is a interesting phenomenon, isn't it? Because India, don't they have like issues with Am I

Sumaira 8:51

Oh,

Hameed 8:51

don't they have issues with this?

Sumaira 8:53

you mean like the entire world in a way, but just,

Hameed 8:57

Yeah, the entire world. But

Sumaira 8:58

exactly.

Hameed 8:59

yes. But also India can be quite,

Sumaira 9:01

Go on, just say it. Yeah. I mean, like, which other cultures, if we put it in comparison to a lot of collectivist cultures, isn't there a hint of that anyway.

Hameed 9:12

Ooh. Charlie says Silicon Valley was a mistake. Charlie also says Barbados. So Julia says, Namibia and Tanzania have female leaders currently. They have recently met and it was very interesting. Ooh, I didn't know that. And Charlie said Barbados too. Barbados also has female leaders.

Sumaira 9:25

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 9:26

Namibia and Tanzania have female leaders. I did not know that. Okay. Sorry, what were you saying? Sumara?

Sumaira 9:32

Sorry, I'm just reading what Charlie's saying. It's true. taking the class of these women into account. Yeah, absolutely. I think intersectionality is really important when we are thinking about identities generally as well, because it will all depend on the intersecting of identities, how somebody would consider or not consider things. I think the thing about anything to do with human behavior is that you're not gonna get a black or white answer. It's gonna be nuanced. but yeah, we somehow have gone into this, but this is supposed to be a podcast, live recap, kind of of our three episodes. I'm just very aware of that. And obviously we have Julia and we have Charlie, interested to know if they've listened to any of the three podcasts that we're hoping to explore, which is the one with Paul Anderson, the one with Peter. Is it Kade and Koha, the counseling psychologist.

Hameed 10:23

yes. Yes,

Sumaira 10:23

I believe Koha is now a doctor, by the way.

Hameed 10:26

Is she?

Sumaira 10:26

saw it on social media. Yeah, I think she passed a Viva. So congratulations Kawthar

Hameed 10:31

Oh my God, congratulations Kawthar. I didn't even know. Oh my God. How did you see it on social media? And I didn't.

Sumaira 10:36

I'm sure on LinkedIn.

Hameed 10:38

how do you see it on LinkedIn? And I didn't, let me, lemme just check Kawthar. See, I just wanna see if she's really, oh my God, she's, oh my God,

Sumaira 10:46

I thought I saw it.

Hameed 10:47

this so cool. Dr. Kawthar Ali. oh, what

Sumaira 10:51

Welcome to this side.

Hameed 10:52

I should change the title of that episode and put doctor in front of a name for everything.

Sumaira 10:57

Yeah. Why not? It's really difficult to get a doctorate. It's very intense, so she deserves it.

Hameed 11:02

a hundred percent. Julia says, I don't think you can find actual data about women being better. There are still too few references. And also it's always a teamwork when combining male and female policies given the best results. This is true. I agree with that. And Charlie says, India has a domestic violence issue. Not to downplay it, but the world also has this issue. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Sumaira 11:22

Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. And of course there's been lots of news from India in the past that has made international, headlines, based on domestic and sexual violence. very unfortunate.

Hameed 11:33

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 11:34

yeah.

Hameed 11:35

How do you know you could do this? This is so cool. Like, look at that. We're just showing everyone's comments, so as I'm reading it, actually I could be clicking on it and showing it.

Sumaira 11:41

Yeah. And I also think a lot of people, like who's understudied. if we think about a lot of what we base our knowledge on, a lot of the people being studied are like white men, whether it comes to medical diagnosis, women are left out, or like you said, very secondary. So I don't think anybody has prioritized that kind of research at

Recap of Paul Anderson Episode

Sumaira 12:02

the moment. But if we go to our first episode or for today's live, Paul Anderson.

Hameed 12:09

Let's do that.

Sumaira 12:10

Yeah. it's been a while since that episode.

Hameed 12:12

so long

Sumaira 12:13

yeah, exactly. and it was predominantly focusing on empowering black youth and he was talking about his own social justice,

Hameed 12:21

In the uk.

Sumaira 12:21

yeah. In the uk. but he was also speaking about his work, and I don't know if you have any recollections or any reflections on that particular episode with Paul that really stood out to you.

Hameed 12:32

the main thing I remembered from the podcast with Paul, was the fact that Paul went, back to Nigeria and before he went back to Nigeria, he, I think he said he was getting in trouble with the law, with the police. And he went back to Nigeria. He really found a sense of home, a direction, where he belonged and everything. And he really found a sense of home basically. And, when he came back, I think that's when things started changing for him. I think that was the main thing that I remember from that particular episode.

Sumaira 12:55

Yeah. I think one of the highlights from that podcast was him focusing on Ancestry connection and how important it is and how sometimes we might dismiss our culture because we are living in a very individualistic society and a lot of us come from collectivist cultures and there's a lot more context to our culture. And by going back home and exploring that, you might be able to connect more and then also want to explore. It's history, for example, or, the nuances of your identity in the West. So he gave an example of like names, like, you know, how important our names are in our cultures and what that means. but not necessarily having an understanding of that before he went back to Nigeria,

Hameed 13:39

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Sumaira 13:40

And the other thing, although this is Hamid you are learning, how important representation is

Hameed 13:46

in,

Sumaira 13:47

in all walks of life, being able to see people like you in certain spaces do.

Hameed 13:52

I don't remember that. Explain that. 'cause all I can think of what I think of is the story that he told when he went to the barber shop and, he got his hair cut and, he left the barbershop and his, I think was his auntie or something, was like, where's your hair? And then she had to take him back to the barbershop to pack up his hair because they were afraid that, you know, they could do something with the hair. I remember that story from that particular podcast. That was funny.

Sumaira 14:13

I would say I don't actually remember that story.

Hameed 14:16

see, we remember things diffrently.

Sumaira 14:17

of course. I remember mentioning something about one of my colleagues, from Ghana training with me and seeing a black psychologist for the first time in a lecture on a doctoral program and how much in awe he was of this black psychologist, male psychologist, and how till today I still also get that in, whether I'm supervising or lecturing, like, oh, we haven't seen a South Asian psychologist before, or, I haven't been supervised by one before. So I guess from that we were talking about how important representation is seeing other people in spaces that you also aspire to be in or to be connected to people, who have certain aspirations.

Hameed 14:59

percent.

Sumaira 14:59

but yeah.

Hameed 15:00

that episode was a long time ago.

Sumaira 15:02

he was saying there's not many provisions for the black community in the uk just generally. He was talking about the pipeline

Hameed 15:08

Oh, the school to prison

Sumaira 15:09

piipeline school to prison pipeline,

Hameed 15:11

That's a real thing.

Sumaira 15:13

System of failure, right?

Hameed 15:14

I think after that episode, I actually Googled it and I saw that there's actually a correlation, wait, hold on. school to prison pipeline in the uk school to prison pipeline is a term describing the concerning trend where school disciplinary policies and practices such as blah, blah, blah, can lead to increased involvement in with the criminal justice system, particularly from students in marginalized communities. Okay. I think I saw an actual statistic about this that, oh man, I've forgotten what it was, but they said like, how they calculate how much room, I don't know if this was in the states or if this was in the uk, but how they calculate how much room or how much prison cells they would need in the future is by calculating how many kids, don't do well in school. Something like that. It was very, it was something very insidious and sinister. and I'm trying to find that statistic 'cause I, I feel like it'd be so interesting to find out where it's from. but sorry continue.

Sumaira 16:06

Yeah, I know. I mean, like I said, it was quite a long time ago. and the only reason, like I, you know, went through the little recaps on Instagram,

Hameed 16:14

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 16:15

It's not my memory fully anyway. I could have kept that to myself. but before we move on to the next episode, I guess, 'cause we always ask our guest if there's anything that they would really encourage, people to do, whether it's here or how does it impact, Africa.

Hameed 16:33

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 16:34

Is there anything from that episode that you took away for yourself and applied or, would really encourage your listeners to think about or consider?

Hameed 16:43

I'll say the main thing that I took away from that particular episode would be, I can focus on the thing and I kick stop. Oh my God, what is wrong with me? Oh, I'm sorry. I have issues. Oh God.

Sumaira 16:54

Should we change her name to sum? Aura? did he see the last comment?

Hameed 16:58

No, I didn't. oh

Sumaira 16:58

should we change her name to sum? Aura

Hameed 17:00

Oh yeah. oh, this is so frustrating. Why do I do this to myself?

Sumaira 17:04

Hamid. Play with the orange ball you've got and stop fidgeting.

Hameed 17:09

Anyways, yeah, so your question was, did I take anything away from that particular episode?

Personal Reflections on Heritage and Identity

Hameed 17:14

and anything that I would wanna share with the people Dems and the answer was yes, I did take something from that particular episode and it was just that, once again, the main thing that stood out for me for that episode is that when he went back to Nigeria and he found a place and he found a home and he found like a culture that he belonged to, that he's from it, it felt it did something to him that changed the way things were going. And I think I said it during that episode as well, we should be able to make sure that young people, I mean young Black and African people from the UK are able to go back home and explore life in Kenya, in Nigeria, in any of these countries and just see how things are.

Sumaira 17:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hameed 17:52

I would say that's the main thing I took away from it. yeah.

Sumaira 17:54

Yeah, I think there's something about connecting to your heritage, that is really important. there are a lot of people who live in the West who have never gone back home. I mean, I haven't been back to India since I was nine years old,

Hameed 18:07

Really

Sumaira 18:07

I did go twice. Yeah.

Hameed 18:09

no. Like, have you really never not been back since

Sumaira 18:12

I think I went when I was eight and then nine. I haven't been back since. I would like to go, but I would like to go for a longer period, so it's not something I can do right now. but

Hameed 18:23

that is so interesting?

Sumaira 18:24

but also remember like

Hameed 18:26

because you travel all the time.

Sumaira 18:27

yeah, we've always spoken about like. For me, I don't have a majority home as an Indian Muslim woman. I'm a minority here in the uk, but I'm also a minority in India. And Islamophobia is on the rise in India. obviously, I would love to go back, this India's a really big country and I just don't wanna go back to where my parents are from. I would like to explore it a bit more. yeah, I went to Sri Lanka, which was, not too far from India. There's a lot of overlaps. It reminded me of home recently.

Hameed 18:57

can we discuss that a little bit? Why is, why do you think Islamophobia on the rise in India?

Sumaira 19:01

I mean, it's all based on governments, isn't it? It depends on who is leading. I mean, to be honest, I don't engage in, it's probably a protective mechanism, engage in Indian politics as much, because I just think there's so much more happening. I mean, to be honest, it's all interlinked. I shouldn't say that. but I know Modi, for example, he, the current Prime minister, he's actually from Gura. That's where I'm from. I'm Gujarati,

Hameed 19:26

But he doesn't like Indian Muslims. So does he.

Sumaira 19:29

no, he believes that India's for Hindus. It's the whole, right wing.

Hameed 19:34

that's something that the British started, right?

Sumaira 19:35

I mean, we can say that because prior to Britain coming into the country, we coexisted married into, each other's, yeah, like I don't even think religion was an issue back then. adopted each other's, like, religious culture as well. 'cause obviously we all have our Indian culture and then we have regional culture, but also our religion. cause you know, the Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Bahai, faith, there's so many different cultures and religions there. yeah, so Britain started it off divide and conquer,

Hameed 20:08

and we're still seeing the repercussions of that today? Or

Sumaira 20:11

Yeah, but I think in particular with this government, there's something that's shifted, because I remember growing up or like in, in the more recent years, like for example, when it comes to Eid, you know, we sacrifice a ram, a sheep or goat or, you know, whatever. I think that's actually banned. Like you can't do that openly

Hameed 20:28

In India.

Sumaira 20:28

in India. and I think a bit like wherever we grow up or how Islamophobia is, manifested in other countries, it's the same in India. but what people see is that, oh well. The unemployment rates in India at the moment have declined thanks to Maori. Well, yeah. But what about everything else? And obviously we know where India stands when it comes to the genocide of Palestine and literally, I dunno if you've seen videos of Indians going to, quotation marks, Israel occupied Palestine and being like, we are here to support you. And the Israelis are like, go home, go back to where you've come from. And there's so much resistance and I'm just shaking my head 'cause I'm like, I am Indian but I'm not this kind of Indian. have you not seen it? Have you not seen the videos?

Hameed 21:11

I haven't seen videos like that

Sumaira 21:12

Yeah, there'd be people even online just showing their support and like literally if I was speaking like, you know, if I wasn't watching, like basically begging it. When it comes to showing their support for Israel, but what is it rooted in is actually Islamophobia, because they're thinking Palestine Muslims rather than them seeing it. As Palestine also has different faiths. there's Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Muslims, Palestinian atheists, probably.

Hameed 21:39

India does have a pro-ISIS

Sumaira 21:41

yeah. But I don't think historically they did. And if you look at the research historically, I don't think they did. I think they were an advocate of Palestine once upon a time. but if you think about it, obviously you've got Kashmir, which is stateless. People are fighting for Kashmir, India and Pakistan. So, there's a lot of history and a lot of learning to do. But Hamid, when did you go back to Nigeria?

Hameed 22:02

What kind of question is that? Are you attacking me?

Sumaira 22:04

because I'm, I thought we, we'll move on to the next, episode, but I just wanted, you know,

Hameed 22:10

Yeah. So firstly, you're right, I, India does have a pro Israel stance. That's a shame.

Sumaira 22:14

Imagine, imagine this guy's fact checking cause he doesn't believe me.

Hameed 22:19

No, I'm not fact-checking. I'm just, this is for the audience out there as well. I feel like, the better we do this. the higher the quality of the conversation. Maybe why is India's Hindu? Right? Draw Israel and Hindu nationalists would like to emulate Israel. They would like to create. Okay. So basically that's the main reason they want to get rid of all the Muslims in India. Even though before the British came, Indian Muslims and Hindus were just like living and doing their thing, and there was no issues. Right. it reminds me of Nigeria, like, it's the same in Nigeria. Like, I don't know how many Yba people, but a lot of the yoga people that you know, I'm sure they have Muslims in their family, they have Christians in their family. Like it's not a, we have religion and then we have our culture and the two can merge and It is not a di divisive situation. I have Christian cousins, my siblings are Muslims obviously. Yeah. Muslim cousins too. And at the end of the day, it's not that big of a deal, I suppose it's because of the Pakistan India thing that the British did,

Sumaira 23:13

British colonization, but also I think this, you can check, but I think there was something about if you are Muslim and you date a Hindu, I don't know if there were repercussions like prison or you would have to like run away just recently. yeah,

Hameed 23:28

let me check that.

Sumaira 23:29

yeah, you can check that

Hameed 23:30

Is it not allowed

Sumaira 23:32

whether it's legal, illegal, or if it's just something that's frowned upon. But there's definitely an issue now.

Hameed 23:39

Mm. So where do you think this is going from your perspective with this? I don't even know what you'd call this. What do you call this divisive policy that India has. Where do you think is leading the country towards,

Sumaira 23:51

I mean, you saw what it said in the article.

Hameed 23:54

what did it say in the article

Sumaira 23:55

they want to replicate what's happening

Hameed 23:57

basically it's leading to ethnic cleansing if we're not careful.

Sumaira 23:59

I mean

Hameed 24:00

What about the Sikhs though? Wait, Aren there Sikhs in India

Sumaira 24:03

there's Sikhs, there's lots of different religions. India is a very big country.

Hameed 24:07

So, yeah. what about the rest?

Sumaira 24:08

but I think there is this particular hatred towards Muslims specifically. But maybe we could get a guest who can talk about this in a bit more detail and how it kind of overlaps when we are thinking about. What's happening in Palestine, but also somehow connecting it to Africa too. 'cause I'm sure there is, 'cause there's obviously a lot of Indians migrated right to Africa. There's a lot of Kenyan. Ugandan,

Hameed 24:31

You said Indians? Indians.

Sumaira 24:33

sorry, Kenyan Indians, or East African, Indians. But anyway, I believe we did speak to someone in an upcoming podcast about this a little bit. Do you remember?

Hameed 24:43

we did. We did, but we didn't go into enough

Sumaira 24:45

I

Hameed 24:46

We didn't go in, we didn't experience it completely. Like I, like, I wanted to experience it.

Sumaira 24:50

exactly. But moving on.

Hameed 24:52

before we do, Charlie did say India has a similar experience to Palestine in terms of colonialism. Why do you think it hasn't translated into sympathy for. Gaza. I would say my a answer to that is simply because their experience is the British succeeded in making Indians their own enemies, because let's be honest, India and Pakistan, and they're not the same people.

Sumaira 25:13

What? before the split. Before the partition.

Hameed 25:16

yeah.

Sumaira 25:16

Not only Pakistan. Bangladesh too, by the way. Let's not forget.

Hameed 25:19

Okay. Exactly.

Sumaira 25:20

a lot of Pakistanis, Bangali don't know. Or like Bangladesh was Pakistan Before it was originally India.

Hameed 25:28

Bangladesh was Pakistan

Sumaira 25:29

Pakistan. During the partition, there's Pakistan and what's now Bangladesh and has its own independence was Pakistan too. They were given those two, like these are for the Muslims and yeah.

Hameed 25:42

Yeah. Well that's the reason, right? I mean, in my opinion, that's why India doesn't have sympathy for Gaza because they've bought into the Kool-Aid that the white man sold them, which is that you are your own enemy.

Sumaira 25:53

But I guess that's where like there's a lot of impact of colonization, like even to the basics of like the fairer you are, the prettier you are. There's a lot of western standards that continue. Like for example, even the way psychology's practiced and a lot of education, it's like, what the west say is gospel, kind of, you know? for example, even now in the west, we're talking about psychology and the decolonization again in quotation marks. But like there, it's very much science. so yeah, there's a lot. I wonder if Kenyan Indians call themselves Indians, you know, because if they don't.

Hameed 26:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Sumaira 26:31

I was just gonna move forward. The reason like, obviously for Paul, it was a huge, significant pivotal moment when he, went back to Nigeria. He understood himself better and his identity, he was able to consolidate it. And then I was just talking about my own identity and bringing that forth in the podcast or live. And then I guess I was asking how much you engage with your heritage culture. I know you go to Nigeria more often, but like, is there anything you'd like to share about that before we move forward?

Hameed 27:01

Is there anything I'd like to share about going to Nigeria more often?

Sumaira 27:04

just how it helps you consolidate your identity or anything like that?

Hameed 27:08

Well, well, you know, the lucky thing is there's a lot of Nigerians in the uk.

Sumaira 27:12

are a lot of Indians too.

Hameed 27:13

Fair enough. But I guess the reason I mentioned that is because I feel like I never really kind of lost it, you know? I grew up in nij, obviously came here when I was, a bit when I was younger, and then I'm steeped in the Nigerian culture because of the way my parents raised me and my siblings. And then somehow, I don't even know, I didn't plan this. So, but in university, in college, finding Nigerian, west African friends, Ghanaian friends we're kind of like just creating that community without even kind of trying. so, I think that's why I started off by saying there's a lot of Nigerians in the UK because that community, which is surprising because are you doing the same Samara? do you find yourself. Surrounded by the Indian community, the Indian friends. 'cause I find myself surrounded by Nigerian friends, and we're not, we're all different religions. We don't have to be, We're just Nigerian, like, it's like trauma bonding. We bond under corruption of the country and the way everything is going to rubbish, everything's going to complete shit. And we just bundled over. I think I saw a meme online on Instagram where it's just some Nigerians sitting around a table and just being all quiet and everything. And I think the meme says if you wanna start a conversation, you just mentioned the presidents or you mentioned something to do with hardship and everyone just starts talking because we're all trauma abundant. so I think having that around me, even if I didn't go to Nigeria, just having that around me has allowed me to kind of embrace that sense of identity a lot more. But then when I do go to Nigeria, obviously I see it more. I would say that when I go to Nigeria, it makes me unhappy. it's like a bittersweet feeling. It makes me happy because, I feel like I'm home. But it also makes me unhappy because the inequality is so stalk and, it's just so wide. And the percentage of those that have, and those that don't have, it's like this, those that have, and then those that don't have, it's like I can't even put my heart, you know, my, my hand around it, it's just a lot. And inequality is high and then it's just, it's, I dunno. It's painful. That's the way I say it. And especially when I think about where I came

Sumaira 29:18

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 29:18

And how I started in Nigeria, I would be in the position of those that don't have, the way I grew up, you know? So, Yeah. I'm not happy about that.

Sumaira 29:26

Yeah. No, I was just thinking while you were talking, you were also born in Nigeria,

Hameed 29:31

No I wasn't

Sumaira 29:31

you said you were born. I grew up there. sorry. My bad.

Hameed 29:34

are you exposing my details? you're exposing me online

Sumaira 29:37

I guess I was, the reason I was saying this is everyone's gonna have their own journey, right? Like some people are born in their home countries and then they come to the host country and I think for some people's helpful to go back home and it really helps them consolidate their identities. And some people can find that here in the West as well. but like, also like in terms of dual identity, like you can have both passports and that's okay. Whereas India doesn't allow dual citizenship. they're minor. Yeah. Like these kind of things make a difference.

Cultural Preservation and Intergenerational Trauma

Sumaira 30:08

But also, I was gonna say something else, yeah, no, I just think it depends, like for some people it can be a real eye-opening experience and like, had they not gone. it would've impacted maybe the trajectory in life, whereas for other people, not necessarily. And I do think, and this is a discussion I was having with my mom about, when the Indians came to this country, they were so interested in preserving their culture that when Indians now come to this country and see the way the Indians live here in the uk, they think, wow, you're so behind or backwards. Because the kind of, the trauma of trying to hold onto their identity,

Hameed 30:43

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 30:44

you know, and whereas India has moved forward potentially and is interesting to see the difference when you see Indians coming now and seeing the, like maybe my parents' generation and not to also forget that the millennials and whoever onwards Gen ZI don't know all of the terms, but the younger generation are basically making the links between intergenerational trauma.

Colonialism and Health Impacts

Sumaira 31:06

And like what's happening now, like even diabetes is connected to British colonization. You know, like why do South Asians, develop diabetes more than any other ethnicity? Why it goes back to, colonization and the impact of that. And it's not only that there's mental health and physical health impacts, and I think it's important for us to make those connections and really understand what's happening, why within our communities.

Hameed 31:33

I agree with you.

Sumaira 31:34

that was just my thought.

Hameed 31:35

I was just googling the facts you just mentioned. You said, diabetes in the South Asian community is connected to organization. So Gemini, we just use Geminis.

AI and Historical Context

Hameed 31:43

what's the point of Google anymore? we might as well have a whole conversation with Gemini at this point. this is where AI's going, it's, yes, there is a connection between colonialism in India and the increased prevalence of diabetes, particularly types of diabetes in South Asian populations, both colonial disruption and food systems, and increased susceptibility to famine, which may have had long-term impacts on the genetic makeup. Ooh. Ooh, that's nasty.

Diabetes and Modern Lifestyle

Hameed 32:04

These historical factors combined with modern lifestyle changes contribute to the elevated rate of diabetes seen today. Ooh,

Sumaira 32:11

But like nobody would've had that conversation a few years ago. They would just say, oh, it's because of the food that we eat, for example,

Hameed 32:18

yeah. you see this part, right? Lifestyle factors. so first of all, intergenerational impact the experience of famine and undernutrition. during critical periods of development can have long lasting effects on metabolism. That's crazy.

Sumaira 32:30

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 32:31

is this well known then

Sumaira 32:32

I now it's becoming a lot more common knowledge. Yeah.

Hameed 32:35

that the British are the reason a lot of South Asians have diabetes,

Sumaira 32:39

Yeah.

Hameed 32:40

but it's true. It's true. Look, India currently has one of the highest rates of diabetes globally with an estimated seven to 7 million people who are affected. Wow. I

Healthcare Systems Comparison

Hameed 32:48

would be so mad. is diabetes treatment free in the uk

Sumaira 32:51

I mean, you can be diagnosed and treated for free under the NHS, which would,

Hameed 32:57

And it's not the same in the us is it?

Sumaira 32:58

I dunno, about healthcare in the us.

Hameed 33:02

Yeah.

Sumaira 33:02

Yeah, it's worse. But to be honest, the NHS isn't looking, that good at the moment. it's

Hameed 33:08

still better than I

Sumaira 33:09

but I used to that the NHS was the pride and joy of uk Do you get me? And that's not necessarily the case now,

Indian Diaspora and Identity

Hameed 33:17

Charlie's comments was Zoan Ani. Oh yeah. that guy, I like him. only because it's challenging, like the status quo is a Ugandan Indian. I did not know that. who wants to be the mayor of New York? His middle name is Kwame because his dad is like that politically. Just wanted to add that, since you mentioned Indians in Africa.

Sumaira 33:34

Yeah. And Indians also went to Polynesia, like Fiji. Yeah, absolutely.

Hameed 33:39

did you know Ma Don's middle name is Kwame

Sumaira 33:41

I didn't know that. No, that's an interesting fact.

Hameed 33:44

but you know about the guy though, don't you?

Sumaira 33:45

Yeah.

Hameed 33:46

Oh my God. He was born a year after me. I'm older than him What, how, what? This is crazy. I'm old. I'm getting old.

Sumaira 33:54

There people younger also doing stuff like this.

Hameed 33:57

I know,

Sumaira 33:57

Yeah. Like in the uk, Leanne.

Hameed 33:59

Yeah, but like Mayor of New York is a big deal. is a big, I mean, I'm not putting down Leanne Muhammad or anybody else that's doing incredible things. yes. But like, mayor of New York is a big deal. How do you, have you been following? is run by the way?

Sumaira 34:11

Not actively.

Hameed 34:12

I have,

Sumaira 34:13

Yeah, not passionately just what I see. but yeah. Very, very interesting. I enjoyed

Heritage and Identity with Peter

Sumaira 34:18

that. moving on to the next episode, which is episode six. that one was with Peter.

Hameed 34:24

episode six with Peter, let me find it.

Sumaira 34:27

was a journey of heritage and identity with Peter.

Hameed 34:30

yes, I

Sumaira 34:31

Yeah. he's got Brazilian influence,

Hameed 34:34

Yes.

Sumaira 34:35

not only his, he is, it says episode five here on YouTube, but on Spotify,

Hameed 34:41

I try to keep the episode numbers the same. Okay. Yeah. So moving on to Peter.

Sumaira 34:45

Yeah.

Hameed 34:46

are your questions around,

Sumaira 34:47

I guess, Is there anything in particular that stood out to you or any reflection from that?

Hameed 34:52

I would say the main thing that, when I think about the episode with Peter, once again, this was a long time ago, this is why storytellers is so important. 'cause I feel like stories are the things I remember from these episodes. Right? And the main story that I remember from the episode with Peter was the story of, his ancestors and how, they were, taken from West Africa, taken from Nigeria, basically taken to Brazil.

Brazilian Quarters in Lagos

Hameed 35:16

And how they were one of the ones that were coming back from Brazil and wanted to go back to their home and set up in the Brazilian quarters of Lagos. and I did not know, considering the fact that I grew up in Lagos, I did not know that it was called a Brazilian quarter, that particular area that he was from.

Sumaira 35:33

Yeah. What is it called now? Something Marine is where the skyscrapers

Hameed 35:37

yeah, I don't remember actually. Oh, what a goaz. Oh my God. You are joking. You're joking. No, it's a lie. It's a lie. I'm checking on Google where the Brazilian courses are in Lagos and, it says Ida. So what is Brazilian quarter of Lagos? When ag, when Aguas arrived in Baja, they took up residents in the eastern parts of Lagos, provided by, which was later came to be known as Purple Aguar. Okay. Interesting. Okay. do you know why this is so interesting? I don't know if I should say this on the podcast because I'm, I'm like, but it's so interesting to me because I grew up in AGU dark

Sumaira 36:13

Okay.

Hameed 36:13

I was so oblivious to this entire thing.

Sumaira 36:15

But this is why things like this is important. Right.

Hameed 36:18

The Brazilian quarter story of return. This is incredible. Sorry, what was your question?

Sumaira 36:23

were there any reflections or learning that you took away or applied to yourself or others,

Hameed 36:28

so just the story of these people coming back to Lagos, setting up there, being in the Brazilian courses, him having that, fascism, Sousa, the Sousa part of his name, being the Brazilian part. and shrunk connection between Lagos and Brazil. and you know, sometimes when we, I've forgotten when recently, but I think we also recently met someone from Brazil. I. Somewhere, I don't know, me and my friends or something. and there was also that same conversation of yoga people, and I think it was a taxi driver in, but it was in Paris anyways, yeah, I think we met a Brazilian taxi driver in Paris and he was talking about yoga people and he knew about the Orishas and everything. And I was like, wow, I didn't know Yuba culture was so wide, was so loved outside of Nigeria. I mean, I kind of did, but at the same time, just to see it, it's kind of cool. It gives you a little bit of pride and I can only imagine this is how, Westerners feel when I guess. They go to other countries and they see people listening to their music that small amount of pride is pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I would say that's the main thing I remember from that particular episode

Sumaira 37:33

I I remember you being quite. Impressed when he was talking about like, what was one of the easy things that you could do here in the uk, for the African diaspora.

Community and Collaboration

Sumaira 37:45

And he was talking about community and at first you were like, oh yeah, everybody says community or collectivist culture, et cetera. What do you mean by that? And then he said, you know, when you connect across structures and that's when you related it to a time when you were working in Sky

Hameed 37:59

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 38:00

and then you were like, oh yeah. it's true. only if we connected and met people, like everybody has different resources and then we could share those resources. 'cause he was talking about not wanting to gate keep and helping other people of your community. And just having a open space to talk and learn. So like someone from, the accounting department talks to the, I don't know, the other department. You don't seem that impressed right now, but you were during the podcast when he was talking about it.

Hameed 38:29

I'm listening. I'm listening.

Sumaira 38:30

Yeah, he was just talking about like basically the keys community and like, it's not about competition, but it's about sharing insights and knowledge and how you can do that is by connecting with people and actually having conversations. like not gate keeping.

Hameed 38:44

I do agree with that. and it's true because, When I was working at Sky and all the Nigerians were meeting up. some of them, started a startup together through meeting up during those meetings. And they started the business together and they went and raised money and built stuff. I definitely agree that community is powerful. wherever it is we find ourselves,

Sumaira 39:01

and I think it's a quite an easy thing to do in comparison, like when we are talking about what are the steps that we can take as individuals, I think is, something that's a lot more sustainable for us and our listeners to like, just have conversations with other people of the global majority. And you might get to know someone who knows someone and you can really build your resources that way. So I felt like that was a very achievable thing, to do. And one of the key takeaways, in my opinion,

Hameed 39:31

I agree. I'm still pretty blown away that, I don't know if that's correct though, because when Peter was talking about where he grew up, didn't say it's aco. I don't know if that's, I don't see this is just bad geography in my head. 'cause I don't know if it's Aeco is the same place as I goda, but the fact that I Googled it and it said I go that it still was tricking in my head. I'm I'm still like,

Sumaira 39:50

You're still processing it. I hear you. It's fine. this is your space to process things. You are in the hot seat.

Hameed 39:56

I am in the hot seat. But at the same time, you know, I, having conversations with people that are listening in is also wonderful. Charlie just has another question. What do you guys think about Zo Ana and Jeremy Corbin's new left-wing party? Hey, Sumaira, this is your space,

Sumaira 40:09

No, this is your podcast. You talk.

Hameed 40:12

I know, but like you are very clued up on stuff like this, aren't you?

Sumaira 40:16

not as much as Charlie. Charlie really puts us on the spot. You know, I would say I'm excited for it. I think it's quite refreshing. I do follow Zara Sultana

Hameed 40:25

What you follow, like on a personal level?

Sumaira 40:27

like as in her social media, and I probably retweet a lot of her, not necessarily now. I'm not that active on Twitter at the moment, but, I follow her on social media. she's quite inspiring and I think her and Jeremy Corbin combined. think it's refreshing whether they'll be able to do what they, you know, aspire to. Because you know, obviously with the history of Jeremy Corbin, like he didn't really get a chance. They really scapegoated him.

Hameed 40:53

What do you mean by that? Explain that for the views. 'cause you know. Charlie said he asked the questions that the people wanna know. Sorry. Go on.

Sumaira 40:59

No, I, okay. So overall I think it's exciting

Hameed 41:03

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 41:04

and refreshing. I'm excited to see what happens shifts I'm a bit skeptical about, like anything government and politics, like in terms of who's in power and whose voices get censored and who gets shut down. A bit like how, Palestine action, the group is now a terrorist group and anytime you associate, if you were to ever associate with them in the past or present, like you can literally go to prison for it now. yeah, but to show the power, like, you know, even though there's lots of people who are fighting against it, who ends up winning, but I do resonate with a lot of what Jeremy Corbin and Zara Sultana say, and they articulate it in a much better way than I can. but yeah, that's my two.

Hameed 41:46

no. I agree. And what I wanted to add to that was something that, I was speaking to a friend about, and which is I noticed that when I'm speaking on the podcast, I do tend to be generalistic a lot and say white people. but when I say that, I'm talking about Western governments, right. and not every white person because, but the way I say it isn't the best because I'm just so used to, yeah. I need to be better with, the way I communicate that particular thing. But the reason I mentioned that, and what I was gonna say about that was that, I saw recently that even after Palestine action had been prescribed as a terrorist organization in an attempt to shut down. all of that situation. There were older white people that just, like older people, they're still protest and they sat out there. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. I'm so inspired and so moved by it.

Sumaira 42:37

It's people who know that they have a privilege and they're using it to their, you know, advantage.

Hameed 42:43

I'll be honest, I don't think I would, take that risk. that's pretty crazy. 'cause now, you can be facing up to 14 years in prison for showing support to, Palestine action after they've gone ahead and done that whole tele prescribing situation. So the fact that they still did it, I was just like, wow.

Sumaira 43:01

Yeah, there was a retired priest about 83 years old, among the PE protesters who were arrested.

Hameed 43:07

we should probably keep up to date with that because it would be so interesting to see how they handle it. I don't know. I don't know. did I wanna share my thoughts? I am not, as politically informed with regards to what's happening in the uk as some would think, but in my opinion, I agree with you Samira, and the fact that this is an interesting development. It's something refreshing, it's something new. I have no idea what's gonna happen. We'll just wait and see. Similar to, If it's fresh, it's new, it's challenging the status quo, so let's just wait and see, you know, that's my approach to it. I like the fact that something new's happening, but I'm also very skeptical the same way you are Samira, about, just in terms of the power structures that currently exist. I don't think there would truly allow something truly radical to change the way things are. I feel like if you're operating within the power structures that currently exist, I hate to say it, but I feel like there is little, what's the word I'm looking for? But yes, there's little room for change.

Sumaira 44:03

Well, maybe it's like skeptical but hopeful that's where I kind of stand. yeah. So in terms of moving forward to the third podcast of today's live discussion,

Hameed 44:14

third episode, this is with Dr. Khawthar. She's a whole doctor now. Yes.

Sumaira 44:19

exactly. I'm sure if you were to Google her, her thesis will be available online at the University of Manchester. she might be still going through the, I dunno, there's a whole process once you finish your doctorate before it goes online. Yeah.

Hameed 44:32

let me, no, I can't find it. All I see is a, LinkedIn.

Sumaira 44:36

On her LinkedIn, she probably wrote what her thesis was on when she was recruiting.

Hameed 44:41

Are you saying I should show it on LinkedIn?

Sumaira 44:43

no, just read out her thesis title. I believe it was something to do with Black mental health,

Hameed 44:49

Sorry. I'm just trying to get into LinkedIn. I.

Sumaira 44:51

but I really enjoyed, not that I enjoyed all of the podcasts. I learned a lot for real. But obviously kawthar at the time was a counseling psychologist in training and is now a counseling psychologist. And I'm a clinical psychologist and I think both of us are from ethnically minoritized

African Leadership and Mental Health

Sumaira 45:07

backgrounds. And we were talking a lot about the oppression, like in psychology and we were talking a lot about the conceptualization of mental health. And she spoke about it in terms of leadership in Africa. We talked about race-based trauma.

Hameed 45:22

I really enjoyed everything about that episode. I just kept talking and talking. I really enjoyed it. that was one of my favorite episodes

Sumaira 45:28

Yeah, it was quite engaging well, it was psychology. It's interesting topic.

Hameed 45:31

Oh, because you're a psychologist. Oh, okay.

Sumaira 45:34

no, it's actually, it's not about, I think when people like cohor, I, and lots of people who come from ethnically minoritized backgrounds, when we go into psychology, we knew there was a gap. 'cause it's very Eurocentric individualistic, but the people you see seeking support are from the global majority. So we come into psychology not to only understand it and its roots, but to also develop it so that a bit like AI

Hameed 46:00

Ooh. Now you got my attention. What do you mean?

Sumaira 46:01

you know how you're thinking, okay, hang on a minute. We need a ethical space for Africans or the global majority.

Hameed 46:07

To build and own in ai? We need no. Like we truly

Sumaira 46:11

no. I know. And you can definitely talk about this a lot more as your ending statements as well, but

Hameed 46:17

cause we truly screwed,

Sumaira 46:18

Exactly. yeah. No, for sure. in a similar light, not exactly the same, we're coming in because of people of different cultures, and trying to understand psychology outside of what it's known to be.

Hameed 46:30

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 46:31

I found that really engaging for that particular reason. we spoke about being judged collectively,

Hameed 46:37

we did speak about that.

Sumaira 46:38

recommended a few good books to read as well

Hameed 46:41

Mm-hmm.

Sumaira 46:42

by Naem, that he was one of the authors,

Hameed 46:45

that was when I reached a conclusion that all the, African leaders that were doing bad s their nations are mentally unwell.

Sumaira 46:50

Yeah,

Hameed 46:51

Yeah.

Sumaira 46:52

exactly. he diagnosed, he had two psychologists on the podcast, but Hamid was the one to diagnose.

Hameed 46:58

Yes, yes, yes. It was me. I did the diagnose, I did that the diagnosis. Drella

US-Rwanda-Congo Peace Deal

Hameed 47:04

did it. And that reminds me of something that it's really annoying I don't know if you noticed this recently, but us basically struck a peace deal between Rwanda and Congo, right? Randan armies were going into Congo and There were just, there had been a nuisance there. Not more than a nuisance. There were really causing havoc in Congo. US struck a piece still between them and you know what the US got in return us got access to Congo's minerals worth over $2 trillion. and this. Is crazy. In fact, you know what, let me Google it up 'cause US peace deal with Congo and Rwanda This is absolutely crazy. because do you remember it was on the same podcast that we discovered this, but do you remember what the GDP of Africa was?

Sumaira 47:52

I don't recall off by heart. No,

Hameed 47:54

cause remember, we looked at it and we realized that India had more

Sumaira 47:57

already knew that though, but I, we already knew that India's GDP was far higher, than the entire African continent. We spoke about this in our first R Spirit Live.

Hameed 48:08

yeah, exactly. the peace agreement between the democratic Republic of Congo and the Republic of Rwanda, okay, but that's not what I wanted to show. What I wanted to show was what us gets out of it, to trillion dollars. I'm trying to find it.

Sumaira 48:24

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 48:25

So they signed the P anyways, so the GDP of Africa is 3 trillion, right, or three point something trillion. And then the GDP of India is higher than that three point something trillion as well, but it's higher than Africa's one. And I. Basically when the US struck this deal, they were given access to Congos Minerals, $2 trillion worth of Congos minerals. Were given access to that. And that was just it was so crazy. So, because I think people were even, not people, but people were aware that the US themselves were the ones, encouraging Rwanda to continue the attack and supporting Rwanda during. Doing the attacks on Congo. And then they came in and stepped in as the peacemaker, and then got $2 trillion worth of minerals in return. And when you compare that to what happened, I think in two, in 2008 there was, you know what, why am I even talking about it? Because I have it on Instagram. That's a better way to pull it up. 'cause this is where I found out about this. lemme go to Instagram and I'll put it up And here we go. this is where I found it. I was very upset by it, as you can tell, hack, but it's not loading up properly. no C post. Here it is. So after years of Deadly Conflicts, blah, blah, blah, US is basically strucked deal, but an in interest, oh no, this is a video we don't want to listen to. And Look at Trump being Trump. so we don't want to do the video. Yeah. This is easier to read. So, this was a, this was basically a breakdown of the peace deal, right? And in here, In 2008, Chinese firms signed a deal with the DRC to obtain $9 billion in minerals. And do you know what they gave in return? They gave developments for infrastructure development and everything like that. And there was a hoorah or up for, in Western media talking about, Chinese economic colonization, blah, blah, blah, blah, all this. and the US have now secured $2 trillion in minerals for not even offering infrastructure development. if the leader of Congo was smart and they looked at this from this perspective, it'll be like the US basically encourage our neighbors to attack us and then say they'll create peace for $2 trillion. Whereas the Chinese, they just want infrastructure development. They don't bring any war, they don't bring any. Problems. They don't bring any of that. I'm like, who would you rather do business with out of the two? The people that are encouraging your neighbors to attack you and then try to flee you for money for way more money or the people that are actually here to build and China's reputation in Africa doesn't include any violence apart from, if you think about it, probably apart from the Congo Minerals actually, that I think about it

Sumaira 50:59

Mm-hmm.

Hameed 50:59

because when we talk about the mines, the American companies, they can get away with it. 'cause they say, oh, we don't own the mines. The Chinese own the mine So there is a problem there too. Well I guess I'm just thinking this out in person, but Yeah.

Sumaira 51:10

But that's the whole idea of Ronu spirit in a way. it's your learning journey, isn't it? But I see what you mean which of the better?

Hameed 51:18

which of the lesser evils would you rather deal with? Basically, I'm not saying, everything China's doing is great, but I'm just saying if you compare what China's doing to what the west usually does in Africa, which evil you're dealing with. and, another thing that pissed me off about this whole entire piece deal that the US organized is that, is Rwanda not smart? Because why is it that they allow the US to come in and say, oh, we're going to create peace and in return we want $2 trillion of Congo minerals. But couldn't Rwanda have struck that deal with Congo themselves? that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, Hmm. Couldn't they have said okay. Fine. We are bullies and we're here to bully you, but we'll leave you alone for $2 trillion worth of investments in your minerals. I don't understand why we had to get, yeah. This kind of stuff just annoys me. I just think, why did we have to get the Western involved? You know? that's just my thought process around that. Sorry, I went on a completely different tangent.

Sumaira 52:08

I think I can hear your frustrations for sure. but they have a way, don't they, in terms of nothing is happening without them in a way. and it's probably a lot more complicated and intricate, but yeah. Is that something that was connected to Dr. Kawthar's podcast in a way?

Hameed 52:26

I'm sorry. I kind of, took it in a completely different direction.

Sumaira 52:28

I guess we did speak about, the leaders of Africa and, you diagnose them and then from there you kind of were like, look at what's happening and then the frustrations around that.

Reflections and Future Plans

Sumaira 52:38

Right. But I mean, this is our second live Do you have any reflections on like these lives and continuing and, engagement from your audiences?

Hameed 52:50

my reflections are around the fact that at some point, I need to figure out the best way to operate this whole YouTube thing because right now I have a lot going on at the same time. I'm working on a bunch of different things and haven't been able to really capitalize or focus on it properly. Right. So I need to figure it out and start taking it to the next level. I just don't know when I'm gonna have the time to do that. that's the main thing that's bugging me about it. Yeah.

Sumaira 53:17

do you think if there's any listeners who are keen or interested in engaging or sharing their resources, that's something that you would be keen to hear about?

Hameed 53:26

Of course, that's why we do this lives because we wanna talk with the people then and just speak to them and, and like have a conversation. Maybe even invite some people onto the live and they share their thoughts as well

Sumaira 53:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that would be really good actually. yeah, we have so many more, episodes, that we've recorded.

Hameed 53:42

Yes.

Sumaira 53:43

there's a few that I wasn't, part of, so I'm really interested and

Hameed 53:47

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how that goes as well

Sumaira 53:49

exactly. 'cause then obviously I'm coming from an outsider's perspective listening in. do you wanna name some people,

Hameed 53:55

That we have coming up?

Sumaira 53:56

we have coming up, like in terms of releasing podcasts, there's quite a few exciting guests.

Hameed 54:01

No, let's just

Sumaira 54:03

You

Hameed 54:03

people, Deb, and see what happens. To be let's just surprise people and put them out and just see what happens and see how the conversation involves. Because I feel like with YouTube what I'm doing is different from what I used to do. Right. when I look at the content that I'm putting out right now, it's a podcast. It's conversations. it's different from what I usually do, which is, basically Nigerian history, which is the whole storytelling angle and providing information in a fun and engaging way. I'm still trying to do that, but it's slightly different. So I'm just, I'm figuring it out. and it's hard to figure it out when you have a lot going on as well, and you don't have the full time to really explore it. But it's something that I'm looking forward to doing. As I keep going, I'm just gonna keep going and just see what happens

Sumaira 54:43

Sounds good. I dunno how many people we actually have on the live. I think on Instagram there was one, and I dunno if you can see on YouTube if there's anybody

Hameed 54:53

No, I can see on my side, people join and leave and join and leave and, it's just their, also, I should mention on Instagram, they can't really see my face properly. They can't really see us properly.

Sumaira 55:02

no. The whole screen comes up on my phone. Yeah, no, it comes up. Even my name comes up.

Hameed 55:07

You are joking. You are kidding me. Yes, you are. You're throwing in Jests. Hold on. Sorry. Let me check. Oh, this will be cool. the whole thing doesn't come up. Samara look. It looks like this. Oh, wait.

Sumaira 55:19

Yeah, exactly. So your whole face does show up.

Hameed 55:22

nice. Okay, cool. I didn't know that.

Sumaira 55:25

Are there any final comments or reflections from anybody engaging in the live or any constructive criticism? please share now.

Hameed 55:33

Oh, forever. Hold your peace.

Sumaira 55:35

Or hold your peace until the next live.

Hameed 55:37

the live is, after every three episodes we'll be doing something like we just keep going and we'll see what happens.

Sumaira 55:42

Yeah, exactly. And as always, thank you to the people who have engaged Julia. And Charlie.

Hameed 55:47

Charlie, I don't know who Charlie is or how Charlie keeps knowing when we're live, but it's so cool. I appreciate it, I truly appreciate it.

Sumaira 55:53

I dunno if Charlie's there and does Charlie follow your Instagram?

Hameed 55:57

I feel like Charlie's left now,

Sumaira 55:58

Mm, because, yeah. 'cause I don't think you advertised it on YouTube per se. I think it was just a on Instagram.

Hameed 56:06

I did put it on YouTube.

Sumaira 56:07

Okay.

Hameed 56:08

I put a little community posts one thing I did wanna mention before we leave is the importance of us building an AI is to not letting this ai because, Hmm, how do I emphasize this without seeming like I'm just talking about hype? Basically the inequality gap between African nations and the west is, amplified by technology, right? We are currently trying to catch up, but we're having issues like power issues on our nations where we have blackouts and that affects stuff. data issues, access to technology, access to information. all of these things are things that we're currently trying to deal with because of. You know, inequality. Now, it's already hard for us as it is. We don't have our own data centers. So Africa doesn't have data sovereignty. what does that mean? That means that all the data that we have stored is stored on other people's servers, stored on Google Server, which belongs to America, AWS, Microsoft, Azure, that type of thing. we don't have our own data sovereignty as nations, as a continent. And this is an issue that already exists, but people seem to be okay with it. Now, my problem is that it's gonna get a lot worse with ai. So those little inequality things that weren't little, but the inequality that was there already with regards to power and data and all of that is gonna get a lot worse with ai. When AI is introduced, those who have access to power and data are going to speed ahead and we are going to get even further left behind and they're going to speed ahead. They'll own ai, they'll own AI products and own AI stuff. And we will just be consumers. And AI can make you a hyper consumer or HyperC creator, and we would just be hyper consumers and we, it won't benefit us because we are not the ones building it. There will be a lot of bias and a lot of stuff in there that is not helpful for us. And the world is gonna look more and more like a place that isn't built for us. and we're going to need to more change who we are in order to fit in. So that's the way I see it playing out and I think it's very important. And I just wanted to say that before we end it.

Sumaira 58:10

Absolutely. Oh,

Hameed 58:11

Yeah,

Sumaira 58:12

I agree with you.

Hameed 58:13

no problem. Charlie says, I subscribe. Ring the bell. That's how I know when you go live. Thank you Charlie. I appreciate it. I'm gonna start saying that at the end of the podcast episodes. Please subscribe on YouTube, ring the bell so that you know when we go live. Much appreciated anything you wanna say, Sumera before I end it?

Sumaira 58:31

No, I think it was good that we had the opportunity to kind of focus on all three podcasts. I don't think that was something we could do in our previous live. but it's, yeah. Really good conversation.

Hameed 58:42

Yeah. as we do more of these things, we will improve on the live dedicated video to AI is the future and what you think of it. Oh, I might do that. You know, I might actually have an AI person come and we just nerd out on AI and to mirror You can try to play de human aspects of it.

Sumaira 58:57

Let's see what.

Hameed 58:58

Yeah.

Sumaira 58:59

Everyone good?

Hameed 58:59

Oh, we're just leaving

Sumaira 59:00

Yeah. Please join us in our next live.

Hameed 59:03

Yes. Yes. Join us in Index Live. We do a live, after every three episodes is released, we do a live.

Sumaira 59:08

Thank you very much.

Hameed 59:09

Thank you, Julia. Appreciate it. Alright. Bye everybody.