Ronu Spirit

Episode 12: Harnessing Africa's Youth and Technology for Future Growth

• Ronu Spirit • Season 1 • Episode 12

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In this episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, host Hameed explores the intersection of technology, education, and resilience in the context of Africa's future. Joined by guest Owen Pringle, a leadership consultant and business growth coach, they discuss the potential for technological advancements and adaptability inherent in Africa's youth population to drive economic and social transformation. The conversation touches on the legacy of colonisation, the role of storytelling in leadership, the challenges of climate change, and the implications of rapid technological change. They emphasise the importance of critical thinking, self-directed learning, and the integration of digital tools as essential elements for the continent's development. This episode offers an optimistic vision for Africa's potential growth and resilience in the face of global challenges.

OVP:

at some point you get to a stage where you hardly need anybody To produce goods for as long as you like. Now, who's going to buy those goods? if you don't need people who buys the goods? Because you're not paying people to produce the goods so they don't get a living salary. So who's your customer? I am the descendants of slaves. scientifically I have, resilience and adaptability. in my DNA, my forefathers survived horrible hardships. it is just an example of a way in which Africa and people on the African continent will adapt to change

Hameed:

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Ronu Spirit Podcast, where you follow my learning journey as I explore potential ways to empower African nations, address the legacies of colonization and enhance the global respects for black and African people. My name is Hameed, and unfortunately today's episode we don't have Dr. Samira FAU joining us. But my guest is a very good friend of mine, a mentor, Mr. Owen Pringle. Owen is of Jamaican Descents, currently a partner of a leadership consultancy called Leaders Quest and a trustee of the Charity's Aid Foundation. he's a self-described restless provocateur, and investigator of change is interested in how technology changes us, the way we act, reacts live, love, and learn. He's also a business growth coach, a mentor for Social Enterprise Accelerator, and a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. So welcome to the podcast, Owen.

OVP:

Thank you Hamid, and, thank you for such an illustrious and glorious intro. I'm always a little taken aback by the bio that you write for yourself. When you hear it read back to you, it is almost as if you know someone is speaking about a third person. It's, in no way would I describe myself those terms, I get those things, but yeah, it seems kind of alien almost.

Hameed:

Yeah, you've actually done a lot. which is crazy'cause I don't even know where to start. obviously this podcast is about empowering Africans. I do want to get to that, especially talking about technology and education and how it affects the continent. But before we get there, just if we can touch on a little bit of all the stuff that you've done.'cause you are all over the place. and I think that links to when you describe yourself as a restless provocateur, an investigator of change. tell me a little bit about. What that means and how you got into your work, What does it mean to be a restless provocateur and investigator of change

OVP:

I mean, I think the restlessness goes to the heart of my career path for want of a better time in a respect, just reading right back, so many years ago, when I entered the work field. I chose not to go to university. was a specific reason behind that. at the time, early nineties, there was quite significant growth taking place. There was, the beginnings of the internet, the worldwide web had been created a few years before that. I had been a journalist since the age of 14, just writing free of charge for a local music publication. And when I gotta the age of 18, I had an, an opportunity to either become a music editor of this local publication, which was, based in Manchester. Went out to Manchester in Liverpool. I had a pretty good readership. And I was, you know, known as a writer because as I said, I've been writing since 14. So, to become a music editor or to go to university, and that restlessness kicked in at that point, I remember very clearly. my mother, bless her, said to me. You're going to regret this decision, as in you're going to regret not going to university.

Hameed:

I see.

OVP:

that resonated with me and it echoes to this day, she's still with us, but like, you know, her words echoed my ear to this day. I was very keen to make sure that I made a success out of what I did. so that restlessness kicked in there and it hasn't really left me. the provocateur elements has been really linked to the idea of trying to get anyone I work with to think differently about the status quo. see things, you know, coming out as day in, day out. The rate of change is increasing. the rapidity of change is increasing. Things are never the same. We're in a constant state of flux now. I think that is, an opportunity to begin to think about how that change will not only impact us as individuals. But also the organizations that we work with, the systems that we've become used to, the areas that we feel comfortable within that will inevitably go through change themselves. And what that then means for us, how do we lean into that change? How do we embrace that? So the Provocateur element for me has been about trying to ask those difficult questions, both of myself and to the organizations that I work with and for in order to get them to think about, change differently. And, in many respects, technology has been a red thread throughout my career. So again, starting off within, the early nineties, kicking off in, a, what was it? Ostensibly, a startup, a few journalists, me included, got together, established a series of online magazines, thought that we'd, Derive revenues from advertising. It wasn't the case. but what was interesting was that there were many organizations who were keen to dabble in this newfangled thing called the Worldwide Web. So, they'd come to us and say, look, how do we engage with audiences through this new medium? So we would use the content that we created as a mechanism to demonstrate what was possible in terms of the creation of content through this channel to reach new audiences. And that was really the building block for everything else I've done since, which I'll go into in a little bit more detail. But I'll stop there just in case you've got any questions on that.

Hameed:

I do. I have a number of questions'cause I wanted to clarify it and make it easy for the audience to remember. So you didn't go to university, at 18. Instead you chose to be a music editor. And then I think you worked in the magazine journalist, sector for a while. and then somehow now your journey has ended up in you being a leadership consultant where you help organizations think differently. and how did you go from being a journalist to that and how did technology,'cause you were working with technology from the very early stages when internet first became a thing, you were using that in your journalism. how did that lead you into leadership consultancy and where does the technology come into play for that?

OVP:

after the startup, I went to work for ITN, in a startup role really. what was called the New Media Division of the Television News Channel.

Hameed:

ITN?

OVP:

ITN, Yeah

Hameed:

is that like an old IV?

OVP:

ITN is called independent television news. And they produce the news at 10. They produce, channel four news. they produce news programs for television channels and radio channels they've been going for quite some time. they are a really August organization that has a deep, reservoir of capabilities and talents and history in the broadcast television sector. And then I went to Sky, which has we all know is the Ruper Murdoch, owned or was owned by Rupa Murdoch at the time. broadcast operation. after that, Southbank Center. After that, amnesty International and so on.

Hameed:

what were you doing in all these different places?

OVP:

I think they sound very different on the face of it. But the thing that links all of the roles that I've had and all of the organizations that I've had them in is the idea of storytelling. You know, storytelling is one of those terms that is so often used now that it is almost lost is currency. But what I mean by that is the ability to contextualize or recontextualize ideas in a completely different way. So to take an idea and to reframe that in a sense that will allow somebody who perhaps has not come into contact with that idea to see it in a context that they understand and recognize journalism is all about that.

Hameed:

Yeah.

OVP:

it's about, taking something that somebody knows nothing about and then portraying it in a way that makes sense to them. Making it a human interest story for that individual. arts and culture is fundamentally about that. arts is about taking ideas, contextualizing them, representing them,

Hameed:

you went from journalism to working in the arts to working in broadcast, which is like, you are right. They do sound like very different roles. But you're saying the theme within all of them was that it was some sort of storytelling. Storytelling was at the sense of what you were doing.

OVP:

All about storytelling and contextualization. and again, whether that story is about looking at the outside world and saying, how is that going to impact the way we work or do? Or whether that contextualization is ultimately about, how do we take this story that nobody out there knows very much about and tell it in a way that makes people feel that actually It's relatable, you know, NGOs do that every single day of their working lives. Broadcast organizations do that. Arts and culture does that, journalism does you have a thread of stories having throughout all of those roles. So that's what I've done in, throughout the whole of my career.

Hameed:

how do you use that skill of storytelling, that same technique that you use for charities that you use for the arts, that you use for journalism. How do you then use that for leadership consultancy? Why is that certainly important there?

OVP:

leadership is a strange space in the sense that it's, quite a lonely space. It's described as a lonely role to be a leader of the organization, whether that's, you know, a leader of a corporate organization, a civil society organization, or even a government body. you have a small, trusted group of individuals that you can connect with and confide with, but even there, you are expected to be a leader. historically, what we've been taught in business schools is that, leadership is about having a very clear vision, being able to demonstrate that vision and having a, almost a command and control structure to the way that you lead. The idea of, being able to galvanize people behind an idea and leading the charge, into this. Unknown almost, heroically leading forward now that I think is becoming less relevant and less tenable in an era where things are changing more rapidly. we have so many unknowns, so many things that we are unsure about. The term uncertainty we hear a lot nowadays. And whether that's to do with, uncertainty on a personal level, whether that's to do with uncertainty at a societal level or whether it's to do with uncertainty at a say a business level. You know, all of those things are changing. So, you know, to give you an example, we have things like the climate crisis, technological change, which are causing a widespread sense of, nervousness. And as I mentioned earlier, uncertainty, this idea that we don't quite know how things are going to pan out now that. Forces people back into their, what I call their ideological bunkers. So they go to what they know, they go to the things that they feel comfortable with, to grappling with new ideas or venturing into the unknown. now that you can see playing out on a societal level, day in, day out, which is why things like, you know, echo chambers happen, which is why we have extremist politics because people go to the spaces that they feel comfortable within and they hear only from the voices that they feel comfortable hearing from, and they wanna hear from those who agree with them. So once you get into a situation where you are reiterating that point, and you are almost allowing yourself only to hear those voices, and technology obviously plays a. a role in that in terms of its ability to, fine tune the ability to only hear the voices that you want to hear, then you have that echo chamber. So I think that is where on a leadership level, you need to be in a position where you are hearing from people you wouldn't normally hear from. You are looking at ideas that you wouldn't normally engage with. You are speaking to those who maybe aren't your customers yet or may not be. you are getting a societal understanding of what your brand is and what your organization does and how it's perceived in the world. And all of these things I think, need a different kind of leadership. The kind of leadership that is able to look up and out and to look into the unknown. Not to be afraid, but to embrace that.

Hameed:

let me try to understand the two different types of leadership. So you said the one that we all know is like, you need to have a strong vision. you're leading the charge, you know, what's best, like confidence projecting all of that and, basically telling people what to do, like a directorship type of a leadership. But now you're saying we need a different type of leadership, one in which we are open to outside ideas. but it doesn't necessarily mean that we are less. what else? does it also mean that there is less vision, less, directorship in that other type of leadership,

OVP:

No, not at all. I think that vision is still hugely important, but I think the vision needs to be one where you feel okay not having all of the answers, and you can shapeshift accordingly. Based On things that change that are beyond your control.

Hameed:

but wouldn't that reduce, your people's, confidence in you if you say, I don't have all the answers? You know, as you're talking, obviously I know you're talking about it from a business perspective,'cause this podcast is about, you know, uplifting Africa. I'm thinking at it from African leaders perspective and Caribbean leaders perspective and just like leaders of black nations and how they can operate, how they can take this same. Techniques that you're saying the same thing. And if we can apply it to that side of the world,

OVP:

I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who have made an industry out of having a strong vision and making people, believe so much in that vision that they can. Do things that, go beyond the realms of what most people would deem acceptable. For example, you know, you do have that. There's a lot of that in the startup space. I guess if you think about strong man leadership and there's lots of strong man leaders around the world at the moment, that whole brand of leadership is about, I know what we need to do and I am the only person who can take you there, and if you get behind me, I will take you there. But if you don't, who knows what's gonna happen. that sense of fear of the unknown that you can build within people works in the short term. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great in the short term, which is why we are able to vote, strong man leaders in different parts of the world. But. Over the medium and long term, it becomes apparent not just to the individual, but to politicians, to society more generally, that actually the challenges that we're facing require a interdisciplinary approach to problem solving. As in, you can't solve those problems purely by saying that you can have the answer or indeed, by having one type of idea in the room, you know, you need the people who don't agree with you. You need your detractors in the room to help you to solve these problems. You need people who fundamentally disagree with your point of view to share why they perhaps disagree, and to try and resolve those challenges through collaboration. there's almost like a, sort of social, role versus an individual role in terms of like trying to. Designed our way out of these challenges, and I think that's something that we often miss that challenges these days are not something that could be solved over a single term of politics, but they are required over a course of many years, many political terms, many types of people need to feed into the ability to resolve those challenges.

Hameed:

so if I hear you correctly, I'm trying to once again extrapolate what you're saying. I'm trying to take it out and put it on, see how this can be used on a national level.

OVP:

Yeah.

Hameed:

if I hear you correctly, the challenges that we're facing are mostly faceted.

OVP:

Yeah.

Hameed:

this is the same for businesses. Yes, but this is also the same for African nations and the leadership that is required to solve this most faceted problems should be one that gets the smartest people around and gets them to work together and clearly say, I don't know the answer. So like a humble leader.

OVP:

Yeah.

Hameed:

I guess I'm looking at how we can, what they can do better. Obviously we know a lot of things that they can do better. I'm just trying to figure a way to make sure that they do what is necessary.'cause right now, all of them, not all of them, but a majority of them are kind of gathering power, using it to benefit themselves and. Leaving, I guess they're not really interested in solving the problem. So how do you get leaders interested in solving the problems that they're facing in the first place?

OVP:

I think first you've gotta name the problem. You've gotta understand what the problem is. And I think we're in such a state of flux at the moment that it's hard to put our finger on what we think the problem is. I think there's a conflation of short-term crises. With long term change. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by that. if we look at, the cost of living, the cost of living crisis as you called it. We've had issues over the past few years driven by, for example, the, the war in Ukraine. driven by climate change, driven by, inflation on a national level, whichever nation you're talking about. All of these things have caused issues around the cost of living. Now the cost of living, has had a detrimental impact on millions of people around the world. but it is a short term crisis. It's something that won't necessarily be here in perpetuity. In five years, we may be seeing a very different economic situation. It may deepen, but it may actually go the other way. only this morning, we're hearing about the pound to the Euro and how that's doing much better than it, it has been in many years. so, we think about those things, but in the moment they feel huge. But down the line, you look back and you think, oh, well, okay, we had a dip there, but then we recovered from that. Now, the difference between the short term crisis and the long term, issue, or a long term change is that, the long-term piece is the stuff that probably isn't going to go away and that we have to learn to live with, like the climate crisis, for example. we know that's gonna get worse Yeah. Before it, you know, hopefully gets better. Yeah. But we know that it's existential or could well be, technological change isn't going to slow down, and the nature by which that change changes how we live and how we fundamentally think of ourselves as humans will not go away. So the long term piece, I think, can be conflated with the short term piece. And I think that it's really important for us to divorce the two and to understand which is which, why and when we're experiencing those things.

Hameed:

Yeah, you see, the thing is those two things you mentioned are actually, two things that greatly are affecting Africa. the climate change and technology and, the rise of technology. let's dive a little bit more into that. I won't even know which ones to start with. The easy one is the climate change because of recently the cop 29 thing was passed and when I looked into it even I was getting, very angry. I was like, what the hell is this? Like, this is just more colonization happening in my head. lemme give a quick. Description for the listeners, just in case they're not aware of what I'm talking about. I think the COP 29 was a bill passed by the UN to reduce carbon emissions, from developing countries. the poor nations that are just rising up, they're saying that we can't pollute as much, but the uk, the us when they were having the industrial Revolution, they committed so much pollution that now the majority of the pollution in the world was created by the developed nations. and they've enjoyed that and now they're wealthy and now they can move on to renewable sources of energy. But as we are developing and we need quick, energy, they're saying that We cannot pollute as much. And they're basically limiting how much we can pollute after they already have their prosperity. And I saying, if we do wanna pollute, we have to buy carbon credits, which technically means we have to pay to develop nations in order to develop. So to me, I was just like, is this just another form of colonization. So that really angered me. and having said that, the actual climate situation, the climate crisis is affecting more of the global south countries, even though most of the, pollution was created by those in the north. let's explore that. Let's start there before we move on to the technology part.

OVP:

Yeah, by all means, and, I think the challenge is that it's almost impossible to begin to divorce these things. we talk often in the leadership development space about this idea of poly crises, this idea of crises happening all at once. So, you know, the climate crisis, technology, aging, the big stuff right? That is connected in so many ways. you know, migration, will be a direct result of, the climate crisis, for example. So going back to your point, the climate crisis isn't the easy one. And I know we've been trying to say by getting that out of the way, but I think that, we have a strange situation where, on the one hand, technology and the rapid advancement of technology may be one of the things that helps us to avoid a deepening of the climate crisis. But at the same time, it's a huge devour of energy.

Hameed:

Yes. Oh my God.

OVP:

we have this issue. do we go full throttle forward in the hope that actually new technologies will be able to help us resolve this stuff? Or do we pair back? Yeah. So no, there are big questions around that. to your earlier point around things like the, development in the western world and what we've been able to do here in the global north. When I say we, I was born in the global north. I benefited from the growth in the global north. you look at the global south and they are feeling the most detrimental impacts of the climate crisis and will be, you know, they have been feeling it for many years. Only now really when you're starting to see forest fires, extreme weather events, floods in the global north.

Hameed:

That's when they care.

OVP:

Are you seeing a shift in the narrative and so it's only really now that you're starting to see that, and even those who perhaps in yesteryear would've said, yeah, I'm not sure about this.

Hameed:

climate

OVP:

whether their climate issue is really an issue. I'm not sure global warming is really happening. You'll find few people, far fewer people now who are willing to say that. I think a great deal of people around the world will say, yeah, okay, climate change is a thing, but there'll be a difference in the way that they have a discussion about what should be done in order to resolve it. which is why, these issues keep getting kicked into the long grass, on the one hand you'll have people saying, well, you know, China's still the world's biggest polluter. They've simply gotta stop polluting. but what you hear less of is that China is actually one of the world's, probably the world's leading, creator of, climate reducing technologies.

Hameed:

yes

OVP:

whether it's solar or whether it's,

Hameed:

Windmills.

OVP:

yeah. it's a cure at tech, right? Again, goes to my point of technology earlier. Do you stop the development in order to, hopefully rest controlling the situation? Or do you continue knowing that actually things will probably need to get worse before they get better? that isn't a question any of us really would want to answer, but we know that progress won't slow. for example, we know that the walls. proportion of people in the world who live in urban environments passed the 50% mark quite a while ago. Yeah. we're not, that's not slowing down. Most people live in cities now, and as we move further and further into the 21st century, that number will increase. That proportion will increase. Yeah. the built environment isn't going away. the construction industry produces about 8% of the world's emissions.

Hameed:

8%.

OVP:

8%. Yeah.

Hameed:

And I know the agricultural industry produces a lot as

OVP:

it's huge. Yeah. it's about 25% I think in terms of intensive farming. I think air travel is about 2%. and we hear a lot about things like air travel. We hear less about intensive farming. because it perhaps it's harder to stop that. It's harder to say. Everybody stop eating meat, or it's harder to say, you know, it's a vote loser, basically. people aren't gonna go down that road.

Hameed:

But I feel like it's only a vote loser in the west though. I feel like in the global south It's not that big of a deal,

OVP:

absolutely. You're absolutely right.

Hameed:

'cause we have a lot of agricultural land and everything and, like this whole intensive farming, treating cattle like a factory and doing all that. That is also from the global north. I mean, I don't see much of that happening in global south. Like, we still kill animals the old way most of the time. with regards to, the slaughter houses and stuff, it's not so, what's the word I'm looking for?

OVP:

It is not industrialized, I guess,

Hameed:

yes. in some parts it is, don't get me wrong. I'm just thinking more about Nigeria. I'm thinking about my experiences in Nigeria.

OVP:

I mean, most of the world's agricultural, workers are small holder farmers. Yeah. As in, you know, they literally have small holdings and I think most of those people are winning. it's not understood that actually most people in agriculture, are women who are just, producing goods for themselves or a small portion of their community. the industrial aspects comes. You are absolutely right, you know, primarily in the west.

Hameed:

as I'm thinking about it, it just annoys me again.'cause now I'm just thinking like, in the West they obviously more billionaires are buying up farmland from individual owners and they're trying to centralize this whole farming industry. And I'm like, why are they doing that? And I'm guessing it's probably for profits. And then I was thinking. What is the benefit of that apart from profit in them? And then I was trying to play devil's advocate in my head and I'm like, okay, you could say it creates efficiencies in the process of creating food and slaughtering animals and everything. But is that efficiency greater than the harm is going to create? To the number of farmers out there if we put all our food and farming industry in the hands of a few people, surely that's bad for humanity. Like, why doesn't everybody understand that Unchecked Capitalism is just a road through like trouble. Am I mistaken? Am I understanding this incorrectly?

OVP:

Yeah, I think you are. I mean, I think capitalism is a strange beast because, it's often said that it's the best thing we have, right? it's not perfect, but it's the best we've got. Right? And I think, we're in a situation where it's eating itself, right? Because, you drive for grid through efficiencies, those efficiencies come around. You need fewer people to produce twice the profit. there's a great book on this called, zero Margin Economy, by Jeremy Rifkin. And he talks about this idea that, ultimately at some point it will cost a tiny amount to produce, almost, unfathomable goods. Yeah. And this book was written quite a while back, he talked about technology, but. not a huge amount. He talks about the idea of technological unemployment, which was a term that first came around in, I believe, during the industrial Revolution. but now it's even more relevant, right? This idea that technology will and can be used, to produce, almost, unfathomable amounts of goods with fewer and fewer resources. Now, at some point you get to a stage where you hardly need anybody Yeah. To produce goods as you know, for as long as you like. Now, who's going to buy those goods? if you don't need people who buys the goods? Because you're not paying people to produce the goods so they don't get a living salary. So who's your customer? And then we get into big conversations around things like. universal basic income. do we need a social safety net to ensure that actually we still have people to buy the stuff that can be produced? Or do we look at a completely different model that isn't capitalism?

Hameed:

I have a question for you because this is a question I'm gonna actually start asking my guests from this podcast. Going forward, I've decided, because I had these conversations with my friends, two of my friends, and they didn't seem to see a problem with the way capitalism currently runs, and both of my friends are Nigerian, and they grew up in Nigeria, so they're from Africa. And even though if we look at it deeply, I believe it's the reason why a lot of, the destabilization and the states of the continents is the way it is because of capitalism, starting from slavery to destabilization, to colonization, all kinds of different things has been happening. But they couldn't see it as a bad thing. So I guess. I need to open my mind and start asking all of my guests What do you think of capitalism the way it is currently? Because my personal take on it is that there must be a balance. It cannot be extremes. Americans love to talk in extremes. It's like their capitalism is extreme unchecked. Nobody ever checks it. it just does whatever it wants. Or communism where millions of people die starvation because nobody knows how to run a farm and so on. my question to you is, what do you think of capitalism the way it is currently?

OVP:

I'm not going to sit here and, and completely derive capitalism. Yeah. Because I, I think that it has benefited. Millions of people around the world, billions of people, lots of people have been lifted outta poverty as a direct result of the model that we call capitalism.

Hameed:

What is that model?

OVP:

you know, that whole model of, of growth, yep. Continual growth, the seeking profit, seeking, a return on your investment, something that gives you more than you put in the first place. Yeah.

Hameed:

but the thing is, I agree with that fundamental perspective, but I feel like it should be tempered with something

OVP:

Yeah. I agree. I think unchecked, you end up with a situation like I mentioned earlier, where you have unlimited, products or goods, produced with very little technology, ai, robotics, automation will supercharge that. we need to think differently About models of growth indeed, whether growth is always necessary, I think we need to think differently about, products and services and how we procure those. and, what is necessary versus what is desired. if you think about the nature of businesses in the business of, servicing human wants. Yeah. civil society, I'll include, charitable organizations, NGOs, I'll even include government within that is in the business of human needs. Yeah. And I think that sometimes you might want something but you don't need it. And as I mentioned earlier, we sometimes conflate these two things, right?

Hameed:

I love that.

OVP:

I want a bigger car. I want a bigger house. Right. But do I need that stuff? I think it's really important to make sure that we understand actually what is crucial, what is fundamental to living. and it often isn't the stuff that we want. Yeah. What we need isn't what we want.

Hameed:

so business isn't the business of wants, civil society isn't the business of human needs. I like that. I've never quite heard it phrased like that before. Entrepreneurship and all that kind of stuff serves the wants, and civil society serves needs and Western Civil Society. You said charitable organizations,

OVP:

Yeah. Government, and don't get me wrong, and that's highly reductive, right? And not exclusively true. There are lots of businesses that could provide services that we actually do need, but ostensibly that's probably the model that we live under. And I think it means that we have to ask ourselves some quite crucial questions about what do we actually need during COVID? We asked those questions, right? what do we need? We need healthcare. We need human connection. We need, to be able to have, you know, an ability to get the stuff that is going to keep us alive, right? Whether that's food or whether it's, as I say, healthcare or all of these other things. we became far less materialistic during that period. And I think we've sort of reverted to type now that COVID is over, right? But, I think that those are really crucial questions and those are questions that will come into Sharp focus in the next 50 years. And I think Africa, going back to your original question is a really interesting position because of where it is economically continental, and I know that there's vast difference between those who are doing well, countries that are doing well in Africa and countries that are not doing as well. But if you to average it out over the entire continent, Africa has the least to fall from where it's and it has the most to grow in terms where it is economically. Now, the economies that have the most to use, I find of those that are really. Holding on to the status quo as much as they possibly can.

Hameed:

That's what I'm saying.

OVP:

because, these are models that have benefited the global growth to a large degree.

Hameed:

for hunderds of years.

OVP:

for hundreds of years. but I think we're going to see quite a shift. because you have the nature of how we learn. I mentioned something earlier about the individual versus societal, needs. And, education I think is a really interesting space because the way we think about pedagogy and the way we think about learning, is often retrospective. It's based on historical needs. people go to university, they get onto the courses that have proved successful historically. These people that did that course came out and they got this salary, I'm gonna do that course. Yeah. So what that doesn't do is to take into consideration the rapid change that you and I talked about earlier. If things are changing so quickly, then how do you look, not back but forward, how do you anticipate what will be required tomorrow?

Hameed:

Yeah

OVP:

So education has a retrospective business model and that is eating itself as well. And I think there's a danger in that and that largely it's being this individualistic How do I better myself? How do I, improve my own situation versus a social or societal model where education is about, thinking about things like research in order to solve big social problems or about, collaboration. there's a guy. Called Jonathan Grant, who wrote this book called New Power University, and it's about education, having the role not only as a, a space for learning and as a space for research, but as a space for social responsibility as What is the social responsibility of education? Yeah. And I think that is a question that we've forgotten in recent years because education has been about personal betterment to a large and the reason I talk about this is because these big social problems that we touched upon earlier require a broad church. They require a big tent of individuals from different spaces and places who don't necessarily agree to come together to help solve those challenges. Now, how that impacts Africa is that I think the nature of having to be entrepreneurial. On the continent. it's almost inbuilt to people across the continent, you know, that there's entrepreneurialism is just what you do because you have to

Hameed:

Yeah. Because the government isn't gonna help you.

OVP:

exactly. Yeah. it comes from need.

Hameed:

yeah.

OVP:

and, whereas, to a large degree you'll, go to university and get a job in the global north. Yeah. Now I think that the former model of education, the self-driven learning, the self-directed learning, the, responding to change is going to be more relevant and more apparent as we move into the future. And things constantly change and they change more rapidly. they're gonna be more, relevant to, ensuring that you stay connected to a constantly changing world than doing a course. In a university that has been successful for the last 50 years. Now, I, as I say, I didn't go to universities, so that perhaps this is my own biases showing through. Right. but I think that the way in which we learn has to fundamentally change. And I think Africa is in a really beneficial position, as a result of this. simply because you have, a, an enormous youth population.

Hameed:

yeah

OVP:

I read a statistic the other day that, you know, in 2050, over 60% of Africa's population will be under the age of 25, 60%, and that's 40% of the global total of under 25 year olds. 40%,

Hameed:

So it's gonna be like the hub of human capital, basically.

OVP:

it'll be the hub of human capital, whereas the rest of the world will be grappling with this challenge of aging populations. The Western world in particular. Yeah. The only two continents that won't have this challenge are Africa, and I believe South America. Yeah, every other continent will have a population that is aging and that needs support of those people who are elderly. both in terms of healthcare, in terms of, just their ability to continue living. and there's gonna be huge disparities there of wealth, generational wealth, in the west, but that's gonna cause massive social unrest. You kind of see in the beginnings of that at the moment.

Hameed:

Yeah. especially with what happened in New York with the United CEO

OVP:

Yeah.

Hameed:

Guy being killed and the way everybody was just like, yeah, it's about time to have a situation. People are starting to realize that, It's no longer right versus left. It's just those with power against those without, you know, and the more that inequality grows, like you said, the more that social unrest, the more people's eyes are gonna open, I think

OVP:

yeah. And I think you're right. I mean, what happened in New York was awful, right? but it, I think it spoke to the way a lot of people feel now, which is left behind or cut out. you know, and as I, as you rightly say, it's not even left or right anymore. I think there's too simplistic. That's one axis. You know, there's the haves nots, there's the urban, there's the rural, there's the, older, younger, there are so many axes that play here. and they're all interlinked and interplaying with each other. and yeah, it's hard to sort of really get a sense of where we are.

Hameed:

Indeed. there's a lot of things that's falling off from my brain from all the stuff you've said, and I wanna go back and tackle each of them one by one. starting with what you mentioned about education and how, the old way of doing education was kind of like looking backwards, looking at the past and going on a course because, oh, that person went on a course, they got a job, they're successful. So I should go on that course. now education should really be about looking forwards in order to adapt to the ever changing world,'cause the world is changing quickly. and I guess I'm thinking how can we use that to our advantage on the continent in Africa? How can we use that? I feel like education has a huge role to play there. also something else you said it was the social responsibility of education. And this reminds me of a podcast I recorded yesterday actually, where I was talking to a lawyer from Ghana and he mentioned civic education as one of the main things that is needed in order to empower African nations civic educations for everybody just understanding the power of their vote and how they can hold people to account, that type of thing. and that's something that I'm working on with the educational technology platform that I'm building, right? But I'm thinking that how can we get Africans the continents in general to just use this human capital that we're gonna have to our advantage and think ahead, start looking forward with our education instead of trying to do it the way the western world.

OVP:

Yeah, we talk about adaptability and resilience, in the leadership development space quite a lot. and, you hear those terms funnily enough in the NGO space. But used in an entirely different context. But it's interesting that those terms pop up in both of those spaces. I think the, both of those things are there in droves in people on the African continent. I am the descendants of slaves. Yeah. scientifically I have, resilience and adaptability. in my DNA, that's, you know, it is literally there in my DNA because my forefathers survived horrible hardships. Right. that sense of having to, just battle through is there now. I think that, it is just an example of a way in which I think, Africa and people on the African continent will adapt to change more readily than those who are in a situation where perhaps, you know, they have generational wealth or they have, things that they're used to. I remember, when impessa, impessa yeah impessa, bear with me a second. This is directly relevant, our first one around and this idea of, you can manage money and bank through your like phone. And this is, pre smartphone, right? And, and this, you know, it became a massive hit in initially Kenya, largely because people were unbanked or underbanked, right? Now, the reason you couldn't do that in a place like the UK is because everybody had bank accounts. Yeah. Now that was interesting, right? Because suddenly you had mobile banking was just Yeah. Mobile banking is what we do. Yeah. Same with China. people who were unbanked or underbanked, suddenly we using their phones for mobile payments for banking. And it became something that, people in the west would looked at and say, wow, mobile banking. Seriously what in Kenya, China? but we're technologically advanced. What's going on here? and again, it's because once you've got structures that are so successful and so ingrained, it's hard to undo those structures. Right? So it's hard to change those structures. So I think that if we look at, the nature of the rapidity of change that we were talking about earlier and how we need to respond to that. I think the African continent will fare very well in the next 50 years because of its ability and the people's ability to respond to a rapidly changing both societal, governmental, organizational

Hameed:

I love this. You know what? this just makes me feel like I need to go to Africa right now and pack up and like sell a shop there the Odyssey, I love it because, the more I think about it, you are basically, what I think you're saying is that this is almost inevitable, that this will happen because of the fact of the matter is African nations like you said, they have less to lose, they have less structures in place, almost like a blank canvas that It might be easier for them to adopt new ways of doing things and adopt that resilience

OVP:

Yeah. don't get me wrong, I think there will be challenges. So for example, if you have a situation where, fewer people are required to produce twice the amount of goods or services Yeah. You know, but if technology plays its role in fundamentally, changing the employment landscape or the wage, labor landscape across the world, with so many young people, if the situation didn't change, Africa would be in a pretty difficult position with all of those young people without work. Now, we are in a position where we don't yet know the kinds of skills that will be required in the future because.

Hameed:

Especially with the of ai.

OVP:

Absolutely. Yeah. we're still getting our heads around that. there was a guy called CP Snow, who I think in the lecture in the late 1950s, he had this lecture called The Two Cultures. I only read about it recently. but it just hit the mark, really. And he talked about this idea of a fanatical belief, in educational specialization in the uk. So people who go in and do the one thing, right, and they become expert. That thing. Now, if that thing suddenly is changed by technology or the demand for it is changed for whatever reason, then what happens to the people who do that thing? Yeah. so the adaptability and resilience I think is going to be extremely important. now. we're in at a stage, we talked about human capital earlier. I think we're at a stage now where human capital is being, rethought, if you like, not replaced, but rethought in terms of its, utility versus technological capital. Yeah. So for 200, 300 years what we've had is a situation where, technological capital has been used to amplify human capital. Yeah. Whether that is to do with, don't know,

Hameed:

Farming. Let's just take Farming, tractors.

OVP:

great example. Yep. Farming or whether it's spreadsheets. Yeah. But technology has been used to amplify human capital. Farming is an excellent example. Right. but we're now in a situation where. Slowly, technology is outperforming humans in so many areas and will continue to do so. translation is the one that people always point to, right? as one of the first things to fall. and, that will continue. a few years ago we said, oh yeah, but technology can't be created, so the creatives will be okay. Nobody's saying that anymore, right? so, so we have to rethink what the role of human capital will be in a situation where our relationship with the world of work needs to change. Because technology can do a lot of the things that we used to do. So what do we bring to the table? what we do bring to the table is a lived experience. technology isn't alive, right? At least not bystanders. We call today something that is living. things like adaptability, agility, creativity, the empathy, the things, the ability to be introspective. Yeah. To use a lived experience and translate that lived experience into something that makes sense to another person with a lived experience. Yeah. Which is why I think, songs written by humans will probably always outperform songs written by, technology. Because if you're talking about lyrics, you can resonate with somebody else's lived experience, right? If you get a, something that was written really well by technology, it may be amazing, but, can you really connect with it on the basis of somebody who has lived that experience? Probably not. So I think, in certain respects, the absolute skills that we have as human beings are our imperfections. There are flaws, there are the things that make us imprecise. all of those things will still be relevant. In fact, I think even more relevant in the future now. I think that is where we lean in as humans, as technology takes the place of our abilities to do things perfectly. Yeah.

Hameed:

it is interesting that you say that we should lean into, our human imperfections as technology starts doing the technical parts. But when I speak to other tech experts, and I'm gonna have some of them from the continent on this podcast, and we talk about how Africa can move forward, they say we need to equip our young population with technological knowledge.

OVP:

Yeah,

Hameed:

to get them knowing all about technology.

OVP:

yeah. I don't dissagree with that

Hameed:

okay.

OVP:

but the difference I would add there is that, to know about the technology is also to know about how and where we can't outperform the technology. So therefore, how do we use the technology to become a co-creator or a co-pilot of how we're working, right. You know, what are the things that we bring to the table as humans that are probably going to be pretty hard for technology to replicate? Yeah. And we're not talking about mathematical problems here. We're not talking about, quite honestly, we're probably not talking about STEM as much as we were five years ago. Because a lot of those challenges will be resolved by technology, but

Hameed:

So what are we talking about?

OVP:

I'm talking about asking the right questions, asking really finely honed questions of the technology.

Hameed:

so critical thinking and lateral thinking is what Africans should be focusing on.

OVP:

I absolutely think so. Yeah.

Hameed:

Cognitive skills

OVP:

Yeah. That doesn't mean not understanding the technology. I think it actually means leaning into the technology. We should be getting as many people as possible to start using these tools not to think of it as cheating, but to think of it you know, as a means of helping us to be better humans. Yeah. And amplifying that technology's capabilities based on the stuff that we bring with a lived experience. So I think there's a lot there

Hameed:

there's so much opportunities for growth in Africa, so much opportunities for us to do amazing things. I'm trying to understand the best way to phrase this. because technology Can also help solve that educational problem that we said in the beginning

OVP:

Okay.

Hameed:

regards to increasing education. Technology can help with that. do we just put the technology in the hands of everybody on the continent and be like, just play with it and figure it out? Is it a thing that it's more of a guided learning where we are taking people through it? yeah. I guess I'm trying to figure out how we can use that to improve our standing globally.

OVP:

I mean, I'm not going to predict. right now predictions almost always fail, right? and if we think about the historical data or even predictive analysis, you know, what these things don't take into consideration are things like the influencers and drivers into our things that build our values or the things that we hold dear to us. Yeah. The things that define us, which is why pollsters get it wrong so often, because, you know, it's the invisible stuff, right? I'm not going to sit here and say, this is what we need to do. But I think that there is a movement towards being comfortable with not knowing, but being able to shapeshift accordingly as things change.

Hameed:

On the continent or in the global,

OVP:

I think people on the continent do it anyway, because that is the backdrop, the other point I was making is that, you know, Africa has had hundreds of years of uncertainty and the need, to shape shift, you know, as things change, right? so that doesn't go away. I think that skillset, and I do call it a skillset, will be more required than ever moving forward. And, we'll start to see the fundamentals of that shift in the next say, I think 20 years. I think a lot is going to change within the next 20 years in terms of the way we think about, Successful models and how things that we have always known won't necessarily be as sturdy in terms of the things that we will know moving forward. I think the next 20 years is gonna be really fascinating. but I think during that period, I think Africa has a, I think it is a sleeping giant and, I think so many people underestimate its role in the world moving forward because of the fact that they are looking at historical model of Africa and what they know about how it has been manipulated and manipulable over the last 500 and so on, right. And beyond. I think that the shifts that are coming will be seismic. And as I say, predictions almost always fail. So, I'm not going to predict what's going to happen, but I believe that there are things that we don't know or don't anticipate. Now that will become apparent and, you know, future historians will say, oh, but of course that was gonna happen.

Hameed:

I see.

OVP:

they're not apparent to us, you know?

Hameed:

it seems your outlook is quite optimistic. You have a very optimistic look on the continent, and the reason for that is the rapid change in advancement of technology and the inbuilt resilience and adaptability that the young population of Africa already has to grow up in. So I think, I'm just trying to summarize what I've learned here. So I'm thinking that the, having that backdrop of being able to adapt and shift and change to stuff, mix with the power of AI and technology, the power to be able to learn anything and try new things and, try it very quickly, you believe will mean this will catapult Africa forwards, a lot faster than everybody thinks.

OVP:

I think so, yeah. And that's not withstanding the inevitable challenges that will be faced by the continent, such as the climate crisis, which we mentioned earlier. but, you know, I think I am always optimistic in terms of the future. I think that the future will be over the long term better for us. I think that we're probably gonna see some quite weird shifts and things that make us deeply uncomfortable in the nearer term. And things may be bad before they get good. but I think things will be better, not just for people on the continent, but

Hameed:

hmm.

OVP:

for humankind generally.

Hameed:

Okay. I love this. what we've learned is We don't have to do education the way the west, the Europeans brought it in colonization. We can throw that module out and just try A new type of education that is, allows you to adapt to an ever changing world. We have the resilience to try it out. technology now allows us to do more things than we could do previously, just on our phones. and, with advisor of ai. And then the final one is, the social responsibility of education and being able to use education, for good on the continent and to change the mindsets and, Civic education help people on the continents and Africas globally understand their self-worth, their belief, their power. Those are four cool things

OVP:

Yeah. I would never throw anything out. I think the importance is to be open to anything that shifts. Yeah. and be ready to ride that wave. it looks like you remembered something.

Hameed:

yes, I did. when we were talking about energy, AI using a lot of energy and technology using way more energy now, it got me thinking about the infrastructure behind this energy and the fact that most of it is built in the global north, and that even if we were to. Do all this. I was just trying to be a Debbie Downer on your optimistic outlook, basically. But I was thinking even if we were to use our inbuilt resilience as Africans and use technology to think ahead and the incredible human capital that's there to be innovative and just try to leapfrog, what's happening in the global north, the infrastructure for all of this technology is built by the global north and owned by the global north. So they can always bring us down. Like they can always stop that growth if they need. They have a control of that over that growth infrastructure, like the satellites infrastructure, like the data sensors where all of this AI machines, CPUs and GPUs are running like Huge organizations like Meta, Amazon, Google are now looking at building power stations next to their data centers. Because of the amount of energy that these GPUs are taking, they're looking at quick ways to build their own power stations so they can be in. So all these infrastructure is built by them. So if they wanted to stop the growth in the country, in the continent, technically they still have a lever to pull. what would you say to that?

OVP:

at the moment. Yeah, I'd say that's true. But you know that Moore's law has been superseded. Right. I think Moore's law corresponds with that whole nature of producing more for less. Yeah. I think that will continue to be the case and technology will itself become a great leveler. The more technology that you put in the hands of people, the more they will be able to produce the kinds of innovations that will at some point be able to get around some of those blockers.

Hameed:

Infrastructural blockers.

OVP:

Yeah, those infrastructural blockers. Yeah. I think you'll also see a proliferation of the kinds of organizations that are able to do this. You're already seeing it. we can look at the UK for example, and say that, there are two organizations, both based in America who, control most of the technological tools that we use on a daily basis. Google and Meta. Yeah. but there's also,

Hameed:

Microsoft as well.

OVP:

yeah, there's Microsoft, but There's also TikTok. TikTok was around five years ago. Nobody would've ever conceived of, one of the world's leading, social media channels coming out of, China or even one of the now the world's largest, online retailer coming outta China.

Hameed:

Temu is that temu?

OVP:

um, Shien.

Hameed:

Shien

OVP:

Yeah. and I could name so many more, right? The world's largest, EV producer. Yeah. China. and let's not forget, it was only about 25 years ago that people were saying, oh, China, interesting. What's happening there? It's gonna be a great market for us to sell things into. Brilliant. Let's get in. Yeah. and yeah, China is great and everything, but they don't pose a threat because they're brilliant copyists, but they're not really good at innovation. Yeah. Do you remember those? that kind of thing

Hameed:

Yeah.

OVP:

we used to hear?

Hameed:

Yeah.

OVP:

nobody says that anymore, right?

Hameed:

now they see China as a big threat

OVP:

Yeah.

Hameed:

now they're afraid of China.

OVP:

Alex, so nobody says China can't innovate. China are great copyists. and in fact, people are having to pull out of China because they're just not, they can't quite get into that market the way that they initially wanted to. And you've got these imminent trade wars that are about to happen. So, and you know, if we think about Africa in that context right now, if you think about the growth of the population, not just the young population, but the population in general in Africa, the growth of the middle class in Africa, to, those are huge markets. nobody wants to cut out their future customer, so they won't cut out their, no. It will be seen as a market for growth. Yeah. but then probably what most people won't see is, a market for competition. and it will inevitably become that.

Hameed:

Because we'll build our own infrastructure on the quiet, on the low.

OVP:

yeah. And you already see these kinds of things happen, right. You know, and go is making its own EVs, you know, so I mean, it's, you're seeing this kind of thing happen, right? Slowly, quietly under the radar, not necessarily even under the radar, but just below the radar of what most people are looking at. before China, it was, South Korea, right? South Korea and North Korea back in 1973 had exactly the same GDP.

Hameed:

Oh wow.

OVP:

Yeah. I was born in 1973, right? Exactly the same GDP. And now look. Yeah. So things change, and I would say less than 50 years, people will be looking at the continent very differently. It will have its absolute stellar, examples of growth. It will still be struggling in ways, but then so Europe

Hameed:

I'm excited. This is making me so excited because of, like I said, the educational platform that I'm building is one that is focused around education, but is also focused around enabling people to create engaging educational experiences. I'm deliberately moving as far away from the traditional institutional education that we know into something that is more engaging and more interesting. And I'm building this platform to enable educators and creators to, be able to create these cool experiences and share it with the world and. I'm building it with Africa in mind. so the more you talk, the more I'm like, oh, this is good. This is good. I feel like I'm run the right path

OVP:

And that's why every time I speak to you, Hamid, about your platform, that's why it's exciting to me. Yeah. the fact you and I have had this conversation, now, you can see where my mind is going every time we have a conversation. Right.

Hameed:

yeah, definitely.

OVP:

he's onto something here and it's, it could be big. So,

Hameed:

definitely.

OVP:

I think, there's lots to be excited about.

Hameed:

I have one more question. it's about, this is like a proposal to you. If you were in charge and you were to design a global strategy that could harness Africa's youth population for economic and social transformation, what sort of things would you do?

OVP:

Really good question. I think, access to learning platforms. self-directed learning platforms, I think would be hugely important. making better connections within continent as well. You know, it's crazy that for instance, right now you have to fly outta the continent to fly back into the continent, to get to a country that shares a border in Africa, in some cases, right? both in terms of transport and information infrastructure, I think building connections and political connections across the continent. I think I would also look to disseminate technology to as many people as possible, at an early age and just get them used to using the technology

Hameed:

when you say technology, you're talking about this, the phone.

OVP:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a powerful tool, right? but you need infrastructure alongside that. You need mobile networks, you need, high speed networks, all of the things that we take for granted in the global north.

Hameed:

amazing. Well Thank you for this interesting conversation. obviously we're gonna continue our conversations as we do on a biweekly basis because like I said, Owen is a great mentor to me and, we talk a lot. And, I think it was in around the beginning areas of my, entrepreneur journey is where we met, where originally I wanted to do a African, social sciences streaming service, and then I pivoted to, ally, which I was building. And then that's when I met you. And since then I've been growing and look at the ideas growing even more. who knows where it's gonna be when this podcast eventually comes out. but yeah, I just wanted to say thank you so much for your time. I appreciated the conversation

OVP:

No thank you. I really look forward to our continuing conversations and I learn, so much from you and what you are doing and, so thank you seriously for, being my educator.

Hameed:

Hey, we learn from each other. Amazing. All right. Awesome. thank you guys for listening and that is it for this episode.