Episode #37 Debbie Matthews - The Godmother of Women's Motocross

Meet the Godmother of Women's Motocross!  In this episode you'll get to spend time with a true Hall of Famer whose achievements and contributions to the world of women's motocross have assured her place in history.

To learn more about Debbie Matthews career and accomplishments, visit https://www.drivenfutures.com/blank-2

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Speaker 0:01

Hi, friends. Thanks for being with me today. Those of you who are regular listeners know that there are more contemporary female motorcyclists with great achievements and inspiring stories found here on this podcast than any other platform or website. It is my mission to introduce these amazing women to the world and chronicle their achievements and contributions to motorcycling. Hi everybody and welcome to Two Wheeler Motorfands. Today's guest is someone who I know will be remembered throughout history. Some of you might know who today's guest is just by me referring to her as the godmother of women's motocross. There is so much to say about Debbie Matthews' career in motorcycling that I was so intimidated after reading her CV. I didn't know how I could possibly do justice to this woman's career. She's been a guest in many podcasts and radio shows. She's been featured in many magazine articles. She's an outstanding advocate for women in motorcycling, period. And I am so honored and excited to introduce to you Debbie Matthews.

Speaker 2 1:35

Well, thank you very much. It's been a long, very rewarding and very difficult to be blunt journey.

Speaker 1:43

You are such a famous woman in motorcycling and motocross that I'm intimidated by your CV here that you sent me. I gotta ask though, you know, there's so much here that when I look at it, I just think, how did this all start?

Speaker 2 1:59

Well, it all down still to this day, um, really through my passion for motorcycling. Something that I just loved. It was an extension of my parents used to race cars and they wanted something we could all do. So they sold one of the race cars and they bought everybody motorcycles. And I was the last one that they taught to ride, which was annoying, but but um I was the last one they taught to ride, and I just fell in love with it. And I was really fortunate too because right around the time I started, within six months, they announced the first ever women's national championship. So I just dove in, you know, headfirst, and um it just fueled that, and so from that came opportunities to work in the industry and be trained by some of the industry's most notable people. Motorcycling was just getting off the ground at that point, and so that again just kept that fire burning, and I had a thirst for knowledge, and so I just kept trying to learn different things along the way that would help move me forward in the industry. And because I was so passionate about racing and so involved in it, and the opportunities for women were so limited, I just felt a real calling to to try and change those things and open those doors.

Speaker 3:24

I love that because you everything that you've done, as far as I can tell, has been not only to prove your place, your you deserving a place in the sport, but also leading and making a space for women in the sport, would you say? How old were you when your parents bought you that motorcycle? 16 years old. You were the last one to learn. How many brothers and sisters?

Speaker 2 3:49

One sister and two brothers. Okay. Out of those, out of the four, um, my younger brother and I both made pro respectively. And um it was just a really great way to grow up and experience motorcycling together as a family. Um, we even had our own racing jackets in the day that says seven squids race team. Oh it was just something really, really fun. And it it was really um a welding thing for our family to keep us really close together and enjoy one another while we enjoy the sport that we love.

Speaker 4:25

Are you still close with your brothers and brothers and sisters?

Speaker 2 4:28

Oh yes, we talk all the time. So um we don't get to ride much together anymore, but we we talk all the time.

Speaker 4:36

So you were riding and you entered into the business side of motocross. Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 4:44

So, like I alluded to earlier, I got to learn from some of the industry's major players. I mean, Dallas Baker, uh renowned flat track champion, very good businessman, and he taught me the ins and outs of how to become a parts manager. And I worked for Kawasaki Motors in the product department at the factory. And so I got to learn. The nice thing about my journey was that I got to learn the industry from the inside out. So I got to work for the factories, I got to work for dealerships, I worked for distributors, I helped race promoters at the events, and so each thing that I did was a stepping stone to help me learn more and better position me for what was going to come later.

Speaker 5:32

At what point did you realize that there is a big difference in departure between men's motocross and women's motocross?

Speaker 2 5:42

Well, it starts first in the level of support that the men's programs have. They've been going here in the States since about 1968, 69, right in there. And so they've always kind of had that support and grown that support. You can imagine in the late 60s when women's motocross started, and then the early 70s when I got started, there wasn't anything for the ladies. So you had to compete against the men, and they didn't always like that, to be honest. And so that that made it really challenging, and some women would be intimidated. And I mean, I can tell you for myself, and I know this isn't the case for for many, but back then, my very first race, I was told this is our sport, go home and bake something. So, you know, that that can be kind of intimidating for some, but to me, that just lit a fire because I felt like I belonged and I was no reason why I shouldn't belong. And so and it was never a me versus them concept or I you know that that just wasn't me. I just wanted to become the best me I could be and see how far I could go in a sport. And so that's what drove me. So if I did get comments like that, it just made me want to want to work all that much harder. So, you know, it and so that, like I said, it was really a real driving force for me to just keep moving forward and not let anybody define who I am or what I can achieve.

Speaker 7:13

Yeah, I like that. You know, it's curious to me because initially you had to start and participate in the sport alongside men. There was no women's division.

Speaker 2 7:25

Not not initially, there wasn't. Um, there was a group that came up called the Endos, and it was a group of women that had been going out to the desert and to the motocross tracks riding around together, and it just kind of grew from there. And so they were the first ones to get women included in District 37 racing. So it was a really neat time to be there. I mean, if I I I really thought in 1974 when I was just getting started that this was just gonna explode immediately and everybody was gonna accept it and love it, and it's taken a lot of time. You know, it's taken almost 50 years to to get it to this point, which I had no idea at the time. But now that we're here, I'm really excited to see that and to have been a part of this journey.

Speaker 8:15

So you had the end vision in your mind the whole time, but the steps were painstakingly slow.

Speaker 2 8:21

Yeah, I really did. I just I've always had a head for business, and I've always, like I said before, I I've always believed that women can be great leaders, they can be great athletes, they can be whatever they choose to be, and they can do that alongside the men. Again, it's not a contest in my mind. It's just we're both athletes, we're both professionals, and let's just see what we can do. And so, yes, I've always had that concept in my head, I still do, of where I would like to see it go. And so for me to see the resurgence of the uh WMX is is exciting for me for a couple of reasons. One, even though I'm not running it, you know, any longer, that it's run by MX Sports, the bones of what we put together in 1994, 95, 96, all those years in there where we were building, they're still running that. And so that's exciting to me. And that that shows me that we had a good business plan, if you will, a good concept of where it needed to go and how to get us there. And to see it come back again and come back with such strength and vigor and with finally a corporate sponsor backing it, that's huge. And the fans are just really rallying around it, they're they're really starting to recognize the value of having women in the sport, and and I think that's crucial to the growth of not just women in the sport, but the sport in general, because this is a family sport.

Speaker 9:53

So let me take you back a little bit, and I want to talk about your riding career. Tell me about how you rose to the level of fame that you did, and tell me what that looked like.

Speaker 2 10:06

Well, very humble beginnings, obviously. That that's how we all start. We all come in knowing nothing pretty much. So again, I started when I was 16, and we had a couple of tracks not far from our home, Saddleback Park and Carlsbad Raceway. And so we were able to go out uh as a family and not only race at the races together, but practice together on a several times a week at the track, and so your skills are gonna increase with that. And when there are people there that recognize the effort that you're putting in, then those doors start to open for sponsorship and it starts small, 10% off, 20% off. You know, pretty soon you're getting them at cost and and you're getting it for free, and then they're they're offering to pay you. And so it it's that's the way it is in in any sport. And I had some girls to look up to that were really integral in again, kind of fueling that fire of you can do this. And for me, I've always been pretty, pretty grounded, you know. I I've never been one to go around and say, you know, look at me or look what I've accomplished. I just put my head down and do it. So while you're in that mode, you're just in the mode. You're not thinking in in those kind of terms.

Speaker 11:21

How did you feel when you were competing about other women competing? Where I mean, were there, I'm assuming there were other women on the track with you. How did it feel about that?

Speaker 2 11:33

I enjoyed competing with other women, but I also at the same time was competing with the men because I recognized really early that if I wanted to get good, I needed to compete with them because they're not gonna say after you. They're gonna fight me harder, and it's gonna make me not only better my skills, but also mentally be tougher to figure out ways of how can I make this work so I could make this pass or win this race. But I enjoyed racing with the women, uh, they were a lot of fun, and there was a lot of camaraderie for the most part in in the pits with the girls because we're all on the same journey. So there was that recognition of, hey, yes, I want to race you and yes, I want to beat you, but we also need each other to succeed.

Speaker 12:20

So you started even from the early time, you started with that mentoring kind of mindset. I would.

Speaker 2 12:28

I also think a lot of that also came from my parents. Uh, my dad was a fire captain for Anaheim, my mom was a school teacher, and we had a very good, strong family background, and and so they were always mentoring us as well and trying to get us to recognize our core values and and what was possible if we put our mind to it. So, again, to me, that was never something that I really had to discover. I just kind of knew it from the way I was raised.

Speaker 12:58

Were you still competing when the women's only group was founded?

Speaker 2 13:04

We founded the WML, which later became the WML, and then when MX Sports brought it, it became WMX. But when we started that, yes, I was definitely still racing. I was working through some injuries. It was a very, very challenging time because I turned pro in 1976 and I raced professionally for 27 years, which who does that? So you can imagine 27 years of racing on top of three years as an amateur, you know, that there was a lot of lot of experience there, and some of it was challenging because I'm at the time my partner and I uh that were doing this, we didn't have really anybody else. So when we would go to the races, she was she was more the executive end of things and and I would handle the race promotions and the newsletters and the media and all of because again at the time nobody it was very, very difficult to get any kind of media coverage, any kind of sponsorships. So we were having to do it all. So I'm going to the races, and by the time this all happens, I'm in my late 30s, so I'm definitely not in the the peak of my writing career at that point, but I'm still inside the top ten women in the world, which I'm kind of happy that that, you know, that I was still able to compete at that level. But um, I would go to the races and I would be negotiating with the promoters and making sure things got done and making sure the the women got their contingency or their whole shot money. And there was one race at Washugal in particular that I remember that I was still up at the scorers tower negotiating, trying to get because they were trying to make changes, and I was explaining to them, no, we have a contract, this is this is the allotted time that we're supposed to run, you know, nobody's been injured, so there's no reason to cut our races short. And I'm up there discussing that with them, and and my pro race is on the line, and I barely got to the line. I got the last gate pick because I wasn't there on time, because the rules have to apply to me as well. And I basically gave the bike three wraps, dropped the clutch, and came out the first turn in like third place. So it it was it it was very challenging. I I would literally hand my camera to a professional photographer and go, can you please snap some pictures? Because obviously, if if I'm out there racing, I can't be taking the pictures. But I and I was even writing the stories. I mean, it was it was crazy, and it was kind of funny too, because that was right at the beginning of the internet where it really started you know becoming mainstream and available to everyone, and the very first digital cameras, and I know I'm dating myself, but that was that time period, and I would go online, they they were just starting to have chat rooms, and I would go online as myself representing the women, and then I had about three pseudo names that I would use where I would come on as a different person or as a uh as a guy because I hung around guys all the time. I knew how they spoke, and I knew the way that they spoke with one another and what was on their minds because they would they would tell me because I was to them, I was just one of the guys. And so I actually had a a couple of pseudo names and I would create this dialogue, just start the dialogue to where people would start talking about women's motocross. And it was a really good way to to also really keep my finger on the pulse of what do people really think, what do they really want to see? What are the you know, and so it was kind of it was kind of fun and to to kind of play both sides of that, trying to to open that door of dialogue.

Speaker 16:50

Yeah, that's really interesting and forward thinking of you at the time because you know, I was around for that, those early days of the internet, and I had no idea the capability that lie before me with uh with the internet, with chat rooms, with those kinds of things. Like, you know what, who knew how what kind of exposure you could get from something like that? That was that was really brilliant on your part.

Speaker 2 17:16

You you innovate, you know, when you're trying to when you're trying to move things along. You have to look outside of yourself and really stay tuned in to what are our goals and what is the best way that we can do this. And for me, in in my life in a business, it's always been about doing it the right way, being professional, having the wherewithal to to be ethical in what you're doing and how you're doing it, and I think that's that's crucial.

Speaker 17:47

So I'm curious because I'm a nurse, as you probably remember. And when I was in nursing training way back in the day, the idea was that it was trial by fire. You learned as a trainee nurse, you learned by giving getting all of the terrible cases. Everybody was terribly mean to you, you had to suck it up, and it built character, they thought, and you, if you made it, you made it. If not, you were washed out, whatever. And then now, in the days of kinder, gentler education, it's not like that anymore. And it makes me curious to know how you feel about your training alongside the men. You were roughing it up, proving yourself as just as capable as the men that you were riding and competing with. And then you helped to usher in an era where it's women competing against women. So, how do you feel about the experiences of the women competing against women? Do you ever have do you ever have a feeling like you know, no one will ever know what kind of hardships it used to be back in my day, the kind of thing? Or you know, what's it?

Speaker 2 18:57

It's kind of a mixed bag. I I think that there's a lot that some of the writers that came before, such as myself or the Sue Fishes, the Mercedes Gonzalez, the you know, all the women like that. I think there's value in our journey that I would love to see shared with today's up-and-coming girls. We've got a great crop of girls coming up that are so gifted and talented. And the current girls that are out there, they're really, really good and they're putting in the work. And one of the most exciting things to me is to see them finally being able to literally train alongside the men. Like they showed a video recently of Lala, and she's the current uh women's champion and um two-time champion, let's give her her dues. But um, and she was literally at the training facility right next to her her Yamaha teammates doing everything they were doing and putting in the same amount of work. And I think a lot of times in the past, people didn't really realize that that's what we were doing. But for them to have the opportunity to get not only the physical training, but to get some of the mental training, the PR training, the media training, that's all super, super important. And so I would that's one of the things that's on my goals of what I would still like to see happen with the women, is to have a mentorship program to where you can use the experience of of former champions like Jessica Patterson to help them make those transitions and have that professionalism at a much earlier age. And I have seen that Christina Denny, who currently runs the program as the director, she is making those same types of of moves of let's get them the media training and because they're getting ready now to have a round during the SMX championship at the end of the Supercross National series on the main day in front of all all those people. And if you're not trained to ride Supercross, it could be pretty dang intimidating. But because they know that they have that opportunity now, they're able to train and get those skill sets that they need because Supercross is not the same as outdoor nationals at all. So I'm excited to see that. One of the other things I'd like to see is the growth to where both of the women's motos are on Pro Day. Right now they have one on amateur day, one on pro day. I would love to see that growth to where they can see both motors because the fans are saying, hey, we want to see both races. You know, we're how come we didn't get to see that? So I'd like to see that. Um, I would like to see the racing grow to a point that it's an actual worldwide series where the best of the best go head to head. You know, Europe has their championships, and we have our champions, and Australia and Canada have theirs, but to get everybody together would be Amazing. And so I I have heard things that are saying that they're working towards a women's motocross of nations. That'd be amazing. And I'd like to see it grow where we have qualifiers. Because sometimes with the with the women, the the hard part is knowing are they qualified to run with these women? And because they're scattered all over the country or in some cases all over the world, we don't have those CVs to know, oh, this person is definitely going to be qualified. So I would love to see it to where we have qualifiers like the men do, so that we have the best of the best lining up on those gates.

Speaker 22:39

Mm-hmm. What's the difference between a regular and a supercross?

Speaker 2 22:44

Motocross is an outdoor race run on dirt with jumps and whoops and bumps, and you've got tabletop step-ups, step-downs. I I don't need to get too technical on it, but you've got all these major obstacles on an outdoor course, and it's run pretty much throughout the day in the heat of the day. It's very, very physical. Your races are 20 minutes to a half an hour. Um, when I put the program together for the girls, we had 25-minute motos, and I had to fight for that. Back when I was racing, especially racing with the guys, we had 30 and 40 minute races. So that was that was tough. And Supercross is basically taking the outdoors and trying to put it inside of a stadium to where the masses could come watch easily. So you'd be putting it in, for instance, Anaheim Stadium. And that way the people can sit in their comfortable chairs, get their drinks, their their food, have their family around them, they're not down in the dirt and in the hot weather. And it's just more conducive to getting more fans there. By condensing it, now the jumps are larger usually. The speeds are slowed down because you can't go as fast because the course isn't as long, but there's the speeds are still quick, uh, but the obstacles are bigger because you're cramming it into a smaller space. So, and it becomes much more technical. You have to be really sharp on your technical skills when you're racing indoors. So that's the easiest way to describe the difference between the two.

Speaker 24:17

And so I'm curious then, too, you mentioned qualifying criteria that might be applied to women around the world. So, what what do you think that would look like?

Speaker 2 24:28

Well, I think the men have a good plan that worked. Usually it's done the day before the race. Sometimes some of them are done early morning on the race, but you you go out and you get your practice laps in and then you try to lay down a fast lap. Well, in the men, if you don't fall in the 40 fastest, depending on what you're doing, whether it's supercross or motocross, if you don't fall in the fastest 20 or the fastest 40 that show up at that event, you're not racing. And so you always have the best on the line for that day. If there's an injury, then the they would go to the next person or two, depending on how many can't make the gate, and then they would fill that gate. And I think that's really important because in the beginning when we were starting to do it, we had no idea. No idea who these women were, where they're coming from, are they any good. And they're showing up at the races, and what can happen, because this happened um at some of the amateur races, is if they're not qualified, then you have somebody out there that maybe is jumping, but they're not competitive with the field. And we've had people actually get landed on most of the jumps in motocross, uh, as you're going up that ramp, they're blind. You can't see who's on the back side. And then if somebody is on the backside and they didn't jump it or they crashed, now you're trying to make those corrections in the air, and that's difficult to do. It doesn't always end up well, and now you're putting your riders at risk. So if you have qualifiers where they have to turn specific lap times to be competitive, it creates a better racing environment and a safer racing environment.

Speaker 26:12

Hmm. Okay, that makes sense to me now. Did you say there is or is not a world competition for women?

Speaker 2 26:19

There are world championships for women. Basically, what happened timeline-wise was that we created the the series here in the States because prior to that, from say 74 through about uh 93, 94, there was one championship a year for the women in the States. That was it. One time. So if you had a bike problem or you were injured, well, you your whole series was down the tube. And I'm and that was part of the drive for me was we need a series. And so that was the main thing. So by creating that series, we were able to kind of open that up, and we had no idea. I would have them send me videotapes of them racing so I could get an idea how they carried themselves, what their skills were. And if I if there was a question on race day, I took laptops on them in practice. I was doing my own version of qualifying back then for the girls to try and make it as safe as possible, but yet increase that growth. So for Europe at the time, there wasn't any women's programs. Canada at the time, there wasn't women's programs. Nowhere in the world did they have any type of series at all. And so that's why what we did was so groundbreaking because all of those countries have taken that those bones of what we created and adopted them. When Steffi Bao came over here and raced our series, she became champion. She took that the bones of how we did it back to Europe, and she got together with the world promoters on the on the world stage to create the women's programs in Europe. Same thing happened in Canada, same thing happened in Australia. So it's it's pretty neat to see that that growth.

Speaker 28:05

Yeah, that was your baby.

Speaker 2 28:06

I still consider it my baby, I'll be honest. I do.

Speaker 28:09

Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing to me because I love to visit the Wheels Through Time Museum, Maggie Valley, North Carolina. Shout out to Matt Waffler. And I look at the wall of women in motorcycling history and all the names of the women who have paved the way. And all I can think of is I'm talking to the woman who is gonna be next up on the wall. It's just amazing the strides that you've made for women in thank you very much.

Speaker 2 28:42

We'll see what happens, but to me, it's nice to be recognized for the efforts that you've put in, but I I don't consider them done yet either. I'm still really striving to help WMX continue to move forward. It's nice to be able to go to the races and talk to the women and talk to Christina and about how can we make this better, how can we continue to move it along.

Speaker 29:10

And in the intro, I went through all your accolades and awards and fantastic accomplishments. And I I have to ask, is there something that you wish you would have achieved that you haven't yet?

Speaker 2 29:24

Well, I would say yes because I'm still still behind the scenes trying to push things forward. So one of the things that I would like to see happen is, and it it's coming, it's it's coming very quickly, is increased team support for WMX. So a lot of teams don't have a woman writer on their on their roster for these events, some of them do, and that support is crucial, especially when you're crisscrossing across the country and everything's coming out of your own pocket. So I would love to see more team support for WMX because looking at it just strictly from a business standpoint, if I'm a team owner and I have great writers, but they have an off weekend, okay? And that happens to everybody anytime. So, you know, your your superstar has a has a problem, he has an off day or he gets injured or whatever. If you have a female on your roster and you're supporting the WMX end of things, now your team and your brand, those opportunities increase for this your sponsors, for your media exposure, for everything about what you're doing. And so you have a better opportunity on multiple fronts to showcase your brand and your sponsors when you support both championships. And so to me, that's really a nice thing to have as a as a team owner because it doesn't matter whether your rider wins in WMX or your rider wins in in the men's class or both, you still have a win for your team and your sponsors, and that's really important. And so that those are some of the things that I I still think we need to work on. I'm really pleased that this year the WMX picked up Synchrony as a as a sponsor. I think that's crucial. Back when we were doing things early on, a lot of times we were not even allowed. I went to great lengths to line up outside corporate sponsors that did not conflict with anything that the that the promoter had going, and we were not allowed to put up any banners, to do any nothing. But to me that's a problem because when that happens, again, without that support, how do you grow the sport? How do you get the the media if there's no RRI for the sponsor? Well, why would they sponsor it? It can be the greatest show on earth, but if they no one knows about it, well you know, what are you gonna do? So those are things that I s I still am looking at. Um they're doing a great job on the media right now with the women, really a fantastic job on that. Um, and again, I'd like to see uh continued growth. I think the mentorship program again is is something that I I think would be wonderful to have because if you have somebody in your corner that's helping you with that and knows those challenges, and and frankly there's no way to put this other than to just put it out there. Women generally are a little bit different in how they process information. So sometimes I would watch team managers, for instance, yell at a guy and basically tell him to, you know, figure it out, you know, and they weren't very nice sometimes. If you get in a a woman's face like that, most of the time, you won't get that desired result, you'll get a completely different result. A lot of times they'll they'll kind of back back off. So there's there's a way to talk to them that motivates them. And the other thing that I think is beneficial too is that I watched many times well-meaning dads, and their daughter would come in and say, Well, the bike's not working right. Now that's a fine line because a lot of riders, period, have trouble articulating what's not right with the bike. But that being said, I saw many times their dad or their pig crew would just blow off whatever they said. And that's not helpful or conducive to getting a good performance out of your athlete.

Speaker 33:36

It happens to me when I go take my bike into the dealership. It happens to me when I go and try to ask a question about my car, or it happens a lot just with male-female uh communication.

Speaker 2 33:51

It does, but what I started trying to train the dads, the mechanics, even back then, was don't talk to them like that. Listen to what they have to say and go over the bike. You may not change a thing, but you might actually find something that does need changing. But the simple fact that you are going to that bike and you're going over it, trying to find a solution, you're taking seriously what they said does volumes when they go back out on the track because they know that you listened and you valued that input.

Speaker 34:27

I think you could do a TED talk on that and it would apply to everyone. Probably industry.

Speaker 2 34:31

You're probably right. It's uh it's something that that's crucial. If you if you want the best out of someone, you don't call them an idiot. You say, okay, we ran into a problem here. Okay, how can we make this better? How can we make, in our case, make the motorcycle work better? How can we make you feel more comfortable as a rider on the motorcycle? You know, those are those are crucial items to having success. If you just say you're an idiot, well, nothing changes. Well, it does because then their self-esteem and their confidence drops, and that's the last thing you want, especially when you're competing at that level.

Speaker 35:05

And what about teaching the rider to maybe be a little more descriptive or articulate about what it is that they're feeling or thinking that's wrong might be wrong with the bike?

Speaker 2 35:17

Well, that's very crucial because most riders, well, maybe not most, but a lot of riders don't know the technical terms. They don't know the difference between compression and rebound, between whether the shock is too stiff or too soft. They just know they're not comfortable with it. So I used to have to do that with riders. We sponsored a couple riders over the years, and I would ask her, you know, what's the bike doing? Is it has it got too much compression? Is it got too much rebound? What's happening? And they looked at me and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm like, okay. Compression means how fast it goes in, rebound is how fast it comes out. And once you you kind of teach them what those terms mean, or you come up with other terms that maybe work for them to explain that, then the mechanic has a place that he can go. And so that was really integral because a lot of they don't know. And frankly, one of the advantages I had was I did all the work on my bike, all of it. I could take my bike down to the bare frame, split the cases, put it back together in about three hours. And and um people were like, What how did you do that? In fact, I got asked once by a male rider if I would be his mechanic on the National Circuit. Because he knew that I knew what I was doing, and and so I didn't do it because I had young children at the time, and also I wasn't too hip on how great that would be traveling the circuit with when my family's at home, and you know, I'm on the road with with some dude. So I did not do that. But I also had the flip side of that, being a parts manager. I would have guys come in and I'd be pulling their parts for them, and I had worked very hard to have the skills to be a parts manager, and I I was good at that, only to have them say, Well, I need to talk to a guy. And I'm like, you know, and I'm like, well, he's like, I really need to talk to the parts manager. And I looked at him, I said, You are talking to the parts manager. And he's like, I need to talk to a guy. Well, the service manager was in the back and overheard that, and he came out and he looked at the guy and he said, I heard her tell you exactly what you need. Don't waste my time. And he turned around and walked away. So I love it. You know, I I experienced both ends of that, both in the racing and certainly working within the industry. Not everybody was like that. I had a lot of good support, too, from the guys, but they were there. And and that the one owner, one of the guys, made a comment. I don't even remember what it was. All I know is the owner of the shop came racing through the parts department, leaped over the counter, and started beating, beating down on the guy. He was mad at what he said. And I'm like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, don't worry about it. He's like, it's not fine, and he keeps hitting the dude. I'm like, and I'm just sitting behind the parts counter and I'm going, okay, but maybe we need bars, grips, levers, you know, just going, oh, this is gonna get expensive. But for me, I just I didn't like when they spoke with me that way, especially as hard as I worked to be knowledgeable about what I was doing. But I I understood it to a point.

Speaker 38:32

Yeah. I went into a Harley dealership within the last three months, and uh, I'll tell you, I've been in there a number of times. I won't say which one it is, but I always like looking at bikes, and I'm always kind of in the back of my mind thinking maybe I'd like to trade one of mine in or get something different. This particular dealership, I can walk around that showroom floor and no one will approach me to talk to me about a bike. I can stand in front of a bike, I can look at the uh price thing that they have hanging off of it that's in a plastic pocket. I can walk around the bike and look at it from different angles. I can pull out my phone and take pictures of a bike, and no one will come and talk to me about that bike. And it's this one dealership in particular, and they know I ride. I have three of my own bikes, and between my husband and I we have nine. So I'm in there all the time bringing bikes in for service or inspection or whatever, spending a lot of money. But do you think that anyone will come and talk to me about a new bike?

Speaker 2 39:41

Well, and I would kind of preface that because I that unfortunately is a common experience. It's getting less common a little bit at a time, but it does happen a lot. And some of it is intimidation. Some of them they don't have the slightest idea, and I I this is not dissing the guys at all. They don't have the slightest idea of how to talk to you. Now, the OEMs are going to great length right now trying to train their dealers to talk to their their base, you know, um, to have women on staff that can help teach them and show them how how to talk to women riders because they don't know how. And one of the other things that's still, in my opinion, a problem in the industry is when you go to buy a bike. The industry has had these cards for years, and it it basically they want to it's like an ownership card and they want to know who's on their bike. Nowhere on that card does it say male, female, or child. And in the in the past, if a male's name was anywhere on that, like I always put my husband's and my name are always on both. So if anything happens, either of us, we can take care of things. But because my husband's name was on it, even though it was my bike and I was the primary user, they would put it in his name. Well, how are you as an industry getting accurate demographics of who's actually riding your bikes if you don't have that information? And it's very similar to, you know, like you said, you'll go in the dealers and they just let you stand there. My husband walks in, they're talking to him, and I'm like, really? But a lot of it comes down to they don't know how to approach you, and so because of that uncomfortableness, that that becomes a problem because you are a valuable customer. And what I would encourage you to do in that situation, and do it politely, obviously, but is to just go to the owner or the general manager and say, Hey, you know, I come in here all the time, you know we have nine motorcycles. I'm really interested in trading in or buying a new motorcycle. Can I please get someone to help me? You shouldn't have to do that, but it opens the door to where they will feel more comfortable about it. And then the next step is you need to make sure, or the dealer more importantly, needs to make sure that they listen to you. Because that's a big problem. Because I went to buy an R6 for my husband years ago, and uh it was a it was a Christmas present. And when the men in there found out I was buying that, they asked if they could marry me. It was kind of funny, but but um, you know, I went in there and I'm gonna buy an R6, and everybody knows that's that's a crotch rocket, that's a you know, and I had the knowledge and the experience to know what I was talking about and that we were qualified as riders to own a bike like that. And I was in a dealership that I've have supported and has supported me for decades. And they had a uh salesman in there, and he did not, he came up to me and I said, I'm I'm looking to buy this R6, and he says, Well, how about this cruiser over here? And I'm like, No, R6. Well, how about this dual purpose bike over here or this Forster? And he kept going through the whole inventory except what I wanted to buy. And that really was irritating. I'll just be honest. That was really irritating to me. Um, because I'm there, I have money in hand, I'm ready to buy it, and he's trying to sell me anything else, and he knows nothing about me, he knows nothing about my experience, he knows nothing about why I'm purchasing it. And so I finally got fed up and I I left the dealership and I came back the next day because I knew the owners very, very well, and the managers, and I went to the office and I said, Hey, just so you know, this went down, and he's like, Oh no. And I'm like, I'm still buying it here, but you need to work with him on listening to the customers and so he can more easily help them. And um, he goes, No, I agree a hundred percent. The guy didn't even last a week because I guess he had other problems, so you know. But that sometimes happens in dealerships. It's your dealership is only as good as the people you hire. And if they're not trained, then that's a problem. So I always try to port the OEMs in their efforts to to train their dealers to be better dealers, more receptive, because even if women I believe they still say it's around 20, 25%. I believe it's much higher than that. Again, because I don't think the demographics are accurate. Uh, and I've seen it continue to grow since the 90s. Every year there's more and more and more women. So it's important as a dealer that you know your your client base, and your client base is anybody that walks through those doors.

Speaker 44:45

Right. You know, so what what's what's lacking? Where are the gaps still?

Speaker 2 44:50

The gaps are still in support and in training. That's one of the reasons why I started my WSMX training camps because there was no training specifically geared towards women. And it's gotten a lot better. Most of the training camps um will train women just like they train the guys. But there have been plenty of women, and I know it still goes on because I talk to these women where they will pay good money to go to a training camp and then they're ignored. You know, they they will focus on the guys. And while that isn't always the case, it's something that the better trained the women are, the more fun they're gonna have, the more supportive they're gonna be of their husbands, boyfriends, kids, because still to this day, women control 90% of the purchases made in the home. Well, if they control 90% of the purchases made in the home, shouldn't you be marketing to them? Amen. I mean to me, I was just like, hello. You know, if you want the sport to grow, and let's face it, the sport has gotten pretty expensive, which is I wish it hadn't gotten as expensive as it has, but you know, these bikes are expensive. I mean, for a dirt bike, you're talking fifteen thousand dollars to start, and then you have to modify it to make it competitive.

Speaker 46:06

I didn't even realize that they were so expensive.

Speaker 2 46:08

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The it's about twelve to fifteen thousand for a dirt bike, and then you're gonna spend another seven to ten thousand dollars in mods, and then you need to buy all your gear, and then or trailer, or you know, I mean, it it it adds up in a big hurry. And then if you're trying to do that for a family, you're talking a lot of money. So I think they need to uh you're doing a pretty good job with with some entry-level bikes. I think there are a few gaps there that could be improved on, but there has to be an affordable way to start in the sport. Because once you're in and you're and you're hooked, then you you'll be more open to you know spending that that kind of money. But you know, the the sport has always been about families, and I think that's at our core, and and we need to we need to continue to do that because the the better trained riders are the more availability they have to motorcycles. I think that that's a good thing. And then the dealerships, they need to, again, make sure that their staff is aware of who's gonna actually be riding the bike, not who's buying the bike, who's gonna be riding the bike, so that you can help steer them to a motorcycle that is appropriate for their age and their skill level. Because I see way too often women, especially being sold bikes that are way too small for them, that are way underpowered for them, and then they they can't control the bike properly because they can't get in the proper riding position.

Speaker 47:37

That's interesting.

Speaker 2 47:38

And so it it affects everything in your ability to ride the motorcycle correctly, and then get that training so you learn how to have the proper riding posture and what to do in certain circumstances. I even as part of my class teach people how to fall so they don't hurt themselves.

Speaker 1 47:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 47:58

You know, and that sounds funny, but it it's important to know how how to fall so that you limit that injury. But I see it all the time. And I I get women, they'll email me all the time or they'll call me and they'll say, Well, I can only touch on the balls of my feet. I go, that's perfect. And like, what? I go, if you're flat-footed, it's probably too short for you. And they're like, Are you kidding? I go, no. It's as long as you can touch on the balls of your feet and your suspension is set up properly, you're fine because once you get on it, it's going to squat down anyway. Well, if you're already starting flat-footed with your knees bent, what happens when the suspension compresses? You're compressing with that into the bike, and now you're not in any kind of a good position to come out of that with a good amount of control. You know, so I I spend a lot of time on making sure that they're they know when to stand, how to stand, how to grip the bike, where to look, you know, uh that they're that they ride in the attack position with their elbows out. Obviously, street riding, you don't usually ride with your elbows out, but but on on dirt bike riding, it's important because that creates the leverage that you need for your cornering. So there's all kinds of things, and I I will spend more time on those things because I the rest is gonna it's gonna come. And and too many schools, be researcher schools, they sometimes it's like a factory. They just kind of bring you in and run you through, and you don't have it as a core skill before they go to the next thing, and that creates a lot of confusion in the writer because they're still trying to categorize. I I encourage my students to take notes, take videos, I don't care. Go ahead and videotape my class, be my guest, you know, because there's so much information that you give them when you're coaching them that you have to they have to be able to break it down so that they can after they leave, they can still apply it. It's not this jumbled mess in their head.

Speaker 50:04

So, what would you say is the window of best participation for a woman in the sport, like age-wise? If I'm 55 and I want to start, is that go for it? Go for it.

Speaker 2 50:18

Um, to me, if you have the passion and you want to try it, go for it. Try to surround yourself with riders that actually know what they're doing, you know, or get some coaching. I think that's critical. The youngest riders I've ever taught were two. I won't take them any younger than that. Uh, and the oldest writer I taught was 78. Oh, no good. So, um, and it was a guy and he wanted to learn. So I think the important thing is is to get the coaching and to have that desire. Your boyfriend or spouse isn't always the best coach. Uh and I know that may sound funny, but um, the reason is that too many riders forget what it was like when they started to ride. And so they bring you out there and they buy you the bike and the gear and everything, and they they may even help you get it started, and then they and then they just take off. No instruction, no anything. And so the women get very frustrated because the guys expect you to stay up, but you haven't told them anything, and they forgot where they started, where they didn't know anything. And so it's it's important to, like I said, uh surround yourself with people that actually know a little bit about what they're doing, get that get that training. And regardless of age, if you have that desire, go for it. Now, if you want to race, again, at a local level, you can enter even at 55 years old if you wanted to. There are women specifically that have certainly done that. But it's just something that if you want to do it, do it, but get the training, wear the gear, as far as you want to, you know, go out and be able to race on the professional level. That optimal window is as an amateur, you want to be hitting it pretty aggressively by the time you're 12, 13 years old at the at the latest, so that by the time you are 16, 17, 18, you can potentially be at the pro level. And for women, that window's a little smaller just because we get married, we have kids, we have careers. And so guys, they have some of the same things, but our roles and what's required of us, as you know, is distinctly different. Usually by the time a woman hits around 25, 26 at the latest, she's usually done. I mean, I was fortunate I was able to race until my body just said, you've been doing this a little long, you got it, you got a couple injuries that aren't going away. So um I was able to race at the pro level into my 40s. But that's rare. That's really rare. You want to talk about any of your injuries? Uh, I didn't have many, but when I had them, they were big. And again, come in the time frame that I was racing pro, so when I was 30 years old, I blew my knee out. I ruptured everything off the attachment and shredded it. It was it was a mess. And so they told me your knee needs replaced. Well, in 1989, knee surgeries were not where they're at today, they weren't even close. So I was actually the first woman in the country to have a D surgery done as an elderly. No kidding. They literally sent a nurse to my home. I had the IVs hanging up in the bedroom, the whole thing. So those surgeries now, I mean, ours was just stone age stuff. It it was it was just kind of crazy. At 30 years old, it needs replaced, and they say we will not replace it because of your age. You're too young. They made me wait 17 years before they would replace it. So because they were doing that and I was still trying to race, I would literally go a year, year and a half, and they'd have to open me back up, clean it out, and then send me my way, and then six months to a year later, I'm back in there again and they're cleaning it out. Nowadays, that wouldn't that wouldn't happen that way. And we didn't have stem cell research or any of the other things that the the people and athletes are able to utilize now. We had none of that. You know, as far as the injuries go, I had both knees, and between those two knees, I'm probably at about 19 or 20 surgeries just on the knees alone. Shoulder, I just had the shoulder replaced, and that was a very bad injury in 2004, and I wasn't even racing, I was teaching when that happened. Basically, I had a student and she lost track of where she was. I went over the area and I said we're staying out of these areas, and here's why. And um, she was really feeling good and she was doing really well, and I was trailing her as she was I was letting her have that moment, you know, where where you it kind of clicks in your head and you get it, and she was headed into a ravine that I had pointed out to her earlier, and so I kind of watched to see if she would pull up, and she didn't she didn't recognize how close she was to it. So I accelerated and I went across the front of her bike, so she had to either hit me or turn. But at that speed, she was probably twenty feet, thirty feet at most from the ditch when I cut across her front end. And she turned, which is what I wanted, but now I'm doing 70 miles an hour and I've got 20 feet to stop and it ain't happening. Oh my, you know, so and I knew that when I made that choice. But part of my job as a teacher is not only to teach you, it's to protect you. And so I had made that decision instantly, and I knew when I made that choice, you're going in, you're 100% gonna go in. But it better me than her. I had 30 years of experience, and she had six months, you know. So long story short, she stayed out of it. I just pinned it, hoping that I would clear the back side, and I made it 99% of the way. And I was hoping it would hop up on the other side, and it didn't. I caught the bar, and so I hit that at 70 miles an hour, uh, broke the bike in half. It literally pulled the axle out of the fork. Oh my gosh. And then I fell the 30 feet onto the floor. So it it was it was bad. I got a T-Bay out of that and a lot of other injuries with that. I still have effects from that crash today, all these years later. But if I had to make that choice again, I I would. You didn't think before you did it, it was just an instinct that you were convincing her. I I knew that I was gonna get hurt. The question was how bad? I knew. I knew, but I couldn't just let her, you know. You know, I was counting on my skill set to to help, which it did, but it's still to have that kind of an impact. I mean, it destroyed my shoulder, cracked my sternum. That should tell you how hard I hit. Uh my whole chest was black from the impact. Like I said, I had the TBI, I I had a lot of damage. And even again to this day, sometimes I'll bend over to pick something up, and my whole entire core will just lock up. And it's just from that. So, but that wasn't racing, that was teaching. So, so yeah, the um both shoulders, both knees, a TBI, uh, a wrist, uh, elbow. I think that's about it.

Speaker 57:30

Just for clarification, you said that she she got out of that on skate. You took the hit.

Speaker 2 57:35

Yeah.

Speaker 57:35

Wow.

Speaker 2 57:36

I knew there was a hospital nearby, but I couldn't tell her how to get there. I I just it was just too violent. So I had her drive us all the way back to Mission Viejo, which was an hour drive, to go to the hospital because I couldn't tell her where the closest one was.

Speaker 1 57:50

Oh my god.

Speaker 2 57:51

And she had to drive my vehicle for me because I was in no condition to drive. And I went to the hospital and they sent me home.

Speaker 1 57:58

No, they sent me home.

Speaker 2 57:59

First, they accused my husband of beating me up. And I'm like, no, you would never touch me like that. Go look in the back of my truck. My motorcycle is in two pieces.

Speaker 1 58:09

Oh no.

Speaker 2 58:10

And they they wouldn't believe me. They they literally thought that you know I had been abused. And I'm like, yeah, by my bike, not by the ravine, not not anything you know he had done. And um, so they sent me home, and then I got so sick from that that it I took myself in the next day. I'm like, please, I mean, I couldn't even get into an MRI. Do an MRI. I am messed up, and I know I'm messed up, you know. And he went into an MRI. So finally, three days go by. I can't even talk. I can't even talk. I can't do anything for myself, I can't pick up my arms. I can't I needed help doing everything. Finally, I got a hold of my orthopedic surgeon and I said, I I'm hurt, and I'm hurt bad. Will you please take a look at me? He goes, get your butt in here, let's go, you know. And because he knew if I said I was hurt, I was hurt. And um he came in and and he just goes, You're going up for surgery now. You know, he really went to bat for me, and I I appreciate that so much. And even he was the same doctor that did my knees, and what doctor does this? But when my knees were done, he came to the house to check on me. What doctor does that? He he did, and I and I said, I don't understand. I told them I was really hurt, and I have good insurance, and they wouldn't look deeper, you know. And he he told me, he taught me a valuable lesson. He says, Realistically, all we have to do is stabilize you, they do not have to treat you, they can stabilize you. I'm like, that's messed up. Yeah, because if I had had internal bleeding, I could have died. Sure. You know, yeah. I have ridden times that I probably shouldn't have ridden, just you know, raced because I paid my money, I drove the 3,000 miles, I'm gonna do it, you know. But um, you know, I've always tried to be very proactive in taking care of my body at the same time, listening to it and going, okay, you need to go in. So, you know, we we just think we're ah, it's I can I can get over it'll be fine. But sometimes, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you're you're far better off to just get checked out. You know.

Speaker 1:00:22

Do you have any regrets in your career?

Speaker 2 1:00:25

Not really. Not really. I I feel like I accomplished and I'm still accomplishing the everything that I'm setting out to do. The regret was when we tried so hard to to elevate women and to put them in the right spot where they could succeed, and and we did. And then others took over the programs, and within a couple of years, it was basically gone. That hurt, that hurt a lot. I'm not gonna lie, that that hurt a lot. And the girls, it was hard on them too. I mean, it was really hard on them. They were told that they weren't professionals, they would never be professionals, and it was pretty brutal for them. And and to witness that hurt. But you know, the the women are resilient, and they went out when they were told that, and they said, Okay, well, Moto is not a place for me right now as much as I love it. And so they went into all these other disciplines. They went into GNCC and they they went into trials, they went into all kinds of different avenues, uh, works, things like that, um, desert racing, whatever. And they just kind of split off and went into all those different directions, and they were able to continue to grow the sport, it just wasn't a motto at that time. And now to see that sport be able to come back and to have the depth that we do, I think part of that depth is also coming from the fact that they went into those other disciplines and it gave them additional skill sets. So now when they're coming back, you know, 10-15 years later, because that's about the d how big the drought was. Wow, now they're coming back in and they're more accomplished writers, they're better prepared, they've had better training. And so while it hurt at the time, I think looking back on it now, in a way, it was good for them to gain those things that they needed to take it to the next level.

Speaker 1:02:24

Kind of like gaining uh greater dimension for the different types of skills and different types of avenues that would eventually enhance them, perhaps, in modem.

Speaker 2 1:02:35

And I and I see a lot of those same girls now. One of the girls that was in our in our group during that time period, she was kind of at the tail end of it, was Rachel Gatouche. And Rachel's great athlete, great champion. And she's gone over to the ISDT and she's done all ISDE, excuse me, and she's done all these really outstanding, groundbreaking things for the sport and and for women. And she wouldn't have had that opportunity necessarily, you know, if if that hadn't happened. So I try to look at it of okay, yeah, there were things that weren't great, but look how we're coming out the backside of that.

Speaker 1 1:03:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:03:11

You know, now the the series is back, it's bigger than ever. The riders are more accomplished, they're better trained, they're everything about them is is in a really good place, and I'm really excited for what the future holds.

Speaker 1:03:25

What are you most proud of?

Speaker 2 1:03:28

Putting that work in. I mean, the the championships were nice, and I loved all the years of competing and being able to compete at that level successfully for so long. But just having the the drive and the vision to to open that door, I think, is one of the things industry-wise that I'm that I'm most proud of. Certainly family-wise, always proud of my family and excited for my family and and to see them succeed. And my daughter wrote, and she was the youngest writer in the country, male or female, to have corporate sponsorship at age eight. Wow. At the time. Yeah, she did, she did well. My son um went into the tech industry, he's been very successful with that. And now and now my granddaughter is is learning to be a pilot. So it's fantastic. It's it's kind of kind of neat to kind of just see all those milestones just kind of ticking away.

Speaker 1:04:24

Yeah, because you're the role model for not just your family, but for women everywhere, saying that you know what, if you love something, do it.

Speaker 2 1:04:35

Yeah, don't don't ever let anybody tell you what you can and can't do or who you can or can't be. If it's in your heart and soul and you are willing to put in the work, and that's the key right there, willing to put in the work, you can accomplish anything that you put your mind to, you know, and and even if you don't ever get exactly what you were trying to get, it doesn't matter because the growth you got along the way in that journey, that's what mattered. That's what you take with you. Because I'm 68 years old, you know, there's a lot of people they don't know anything about me, who I am, what I did, what I'm just some old lady, you know, and and try and always give back. Yeah, that that's a big thing for me, is to give back. Because otherwise, they just repeat the same thing over and over and you don't get anywhere. So if I'm in a position to give back and help the next generation or two or three, I'm in a couple generations right now of doing that with the different things that I've done, that's important to me. That's that's something that I that I want to always do is to is to give back. So I'm excited for the next chapter of hopefully um being able to get out there and and talk to people and do interviews like this so that people can learn from. Rather than having to learn everything the hard way. Yeah. You know? If you got somebody in your corner that believes in you, you can do just about anything. Do you have anything else that you'd like to add before we I just like if it's okay, I'd just like to give a shout out to the people that have helped me along the way because they're very integral to the success that that I've had and and the businesses, and obviously we were transitioning into doing um speaking and appearances and things like that to groups. So uh and I'm still coaching, so that's what the Driven Futures is, which is my latest uh business venture. But uh the companies that continue to help me and have for years, a lot of these companies I've been with for anywhere from 30 to 50 years. So to me that speaks a lot to the company, you know, because you have to have that relationship with them to where you understand your role to represent them and to represent them well. Um, and at the same time, then they are doing their job of helping you to do whatever you're gonna do. And and sometimes writers will have a tendency of just saying gimme, gimme, gimme, you know, um, and they don't realize their their role. And even with my kids, people wanted to sponsor my daughter in the beginning when she was just starting to race. They wanted to sponsor her because she was my kid, and I told them absolutely not. And they go, What do you mean, absolutely not? And I said, absolutely not, because she hasn't earned it. When she starts winning and she's deserving of that ride, then by all means you you can sponsor her. But until that happens, no. And it's it surprised a lot of them, it shocked a lot of them, because there's a lot of people out there that that, yeah, there's a lot of people out there that that will do that. And I'm like, no. And but it even to this day, my daughter will talk about how much that meant to her because she knew that she earned it, you know, and that she earned that when she got interviewed, that she earned the right to have that interview, even. And so um I think that's again one of the things that I try to pass on to young writers, is don't just, hey, you know, I'm I'm going out to, you know, my local track and I just started and I'm getting last, and I want you to give me everything. No. No, you know, you you need to earn it. So um, but the people that have been integral to our success over the years, not just for myself, but a lot of them were very supportive of the women's programs because they were some of the first people I went to when we started building those programs to say, hey, this is what we want to do. Are you on board? And they got on board and they're still on board 50 years later, you know. So it's pretty amazing. And those companies are Alpine Stars at Cherby, Excel, Factory Backing, FlowVision, Insign, Maxima, Motion Pro, Race Tech, RK Chain, W Labs, Vortex, and Works Connection. So thank you all for being so integral to the sport and and to the things that we are doing.

Speaker 1:09:07

That's great. I love that. Well, thank you. I can't thank you enough, Debbie, for the time that you spent with us today. And um, I look forward to seeing you at Sturgis and at Pearls Jam. And uh someday I look forward to seeing you on the walls of Wheels Through Time in Maggie Valley, North Carolina, and to get the all of the worldwide recognition that you so deserve.

Speaker 2 1:09:34

Thank you. Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing you at Sturgis, and I'm excited. I'm excited to be there. This would be my first Sturgis experience. I'm still recovering from that shoulder replacement, and it's just way too early to ride. So I will be in the car, unfortunately. But I'll still be there.

Speaker 1:09:52

You'll have a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 1:09:53

Looking forward to it. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:09:57

Like I said earlier, this is a woman you'll be glad you know. Did you hear anything in her story that resonated with you? I'm inspired by all the lady riders I've spoken to, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to bring these stories to you. Remember to like and share, and visit the website for more episodes and photos of Pat's gets. Thanks so much for listening. And remember, be safe on the throttle and in the wind.