E112: Growing a Calligraphy Business Through Teaching, Community and Brand Events

What happens when people aren’t buying your artwork, but they would happily learn how to make it?

For Kirsten Burke and the team at The Modern Calligraphy Co., listening to that possibility helped their business grow beyond commissions into workshops, books, an online club and live personalisation experiences for brands.

In this episode, Kaylie Edwards meets Kirsten, the company’s co-founder and creative director, and lead creative Maisie Minett. 

Together, they share the real story behind that growth, from handwritten blackboard menus and an early Globe Theatre commission to online teaching and working with Jo Malone London.

There are honest moments about motherhood, finding the right people for your team, learning to work while someone watches, and the unexpected friendships that can grow from a creative class.

We explore:

• How listening to customers helped shape new offers.
• Why ideas can move between brand projects, club sessions and workshops.
• What happens behind the scenes before a live calligraphy event.
• How supportive feedback and clear standards work together.
• Why completing a course doesn’t automatically mean someone is ready for professional event work.
• How community, flexibility and small pockets of creativity help keep the work enjoyable.

Whether you’re a calligrapher, artist, maker or creative business owner, join us for a thoughtful conversation about adapting your business while keeping the people and creativity at its heart.

Meet Kirsten and Maisie

• The Modern Calligraphy Co.
• The Modern Calligraphy Club
• Instagram: @themoderncalligraphyco

Transcript

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Kaylie Edwards: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Creative Juggle Joy podcast, where we have honest conversations with artist, makers, and creative business owners about creating work that fits real life. I'm Kaylie Edwards, your host for today's episode, and today I'm joined by Kirsten Burke and Maisie Minett from Modern Calligraphy Co.

Kirsten is the company's co-founder and creative director, and Maisie is its lead creative. Together, they bring both the founder's view and the day-to-day creative perspective on teaching community and live work for brands. Today, we're exploring how a love of calligraphy grew into a business that spans products, commissions, workshops, the Modern Calligraphy Club, and luxury brand experiences, and what has worked, what has been difficult, and what other creatives can learn from that journey.

Kirsten and Maisie, welcome. It's lovely to have you both here. 

Kirsten and Maisie: Hello.

Kaylie Edwards: Lovely to be here. Thank you. So Kirsten, how can we start at the beginning? How did you first find your way into [00:01:00] calligraphy? 

Kirsten Burke: I did... I was arty. That's all I could do really at school. I could draw. So I went to art school, and my dad was a graphic designer, so I did graphic design. And while I was there I quite liked the cut and pasting and sketching layouts out,

Maisie Minett: Pre-computers

Kirsten Burke: pre-computers. Yeah. And then halfway through my degree we came back after the summer break and they'd introduced an Apple Mac to each student, and I didn't get that at all. I couldn't grasp that this was now going to be my life. So I went up, I remember going up to the student library and thinking, I need to rethink this plan."

And there I saw a magazine called Letter Arts Review with the work of Donald Jackson on the front, and it was very layered and expressive calligraphy with golds and blues and I just thought I'm gonna do that. [00:02:00] I like that." So I went back and I said, "Okay you've thrown us in with these computers.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm going to continue to do it all cut and paste, and I'm gonna do everything by hand." And I think because they'd done it halfway through the course they felt obliged to humor me. Yeah. And so I was allowed to do that, and I did everything even I regrettably wrote my dissertation by hand even.

So I took it to an extreme. And from... And that's how it began. I just did it be- out of sort of pure desperation really. I was looking for something creative and that's how it started. 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow. So how did your graphic design background and early calligraphy training shape the work you wanted to make?

Kirsten Burke: Obviously graphics is about looking at what the viewer sees and what jumps out at you and what information you need to get across. So that all feeds into calligraphy. And the power of the [00:03:00] mark. So it's... Most design has the same problems and the same solutions.

Yeah. So whether you're doing it by hand or on the computer, the, issues are the same. So it certainly helped me. It didn't hinder me at all. 

Maisie Minett: No. 

Kirsten Burke: And I learned a lot, it's just that I was taking it in a slightly different direction. 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow. Okay. What prompted you and Jill Hemling to start the business in 1997, and what did the first version kinda look like at the start?

Kirsten Burke: She had gone off and done her own thing and-

we'd met at school ... sixth form, actually? Yeah, we were at sixth form together, and she'd gone off to university and then she'd come back to London and was running ... She was the area manager for a bar chain called All Bar One. Okay.

And she was looking after the London area and I needed, some bar work really. So I started working for her and and that [00:04:00] sort of built the friendship up again. And I was also training at Roehampton, which it under some of the lead calligraphers at that time. Because from the graphic design degree, I realized if I was going to become a calligrapher proper and be taken seriously, I needed to learn proper calligraphy.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: So I went and did a full-time course at Roehampton and so I worked in the evenings at Jill's bars and then she obviously knew me and knew the skills I had in my back pocket. So then she said, "Oh, we've got these big blackboard menus. Could you write them?" And so I started to do that. And then I started to do all the bars in the London area, and I'd run around- 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow

Kirsten Burke: and do that. So then she actually spoke to the ... it was owned by Bass at the time, and she spoke to the guy who was, in Bass and said, "Could we do this exhibition in the bar that was all about food and drink? And it would all be calligraphy, but it would [00:05:00] be ... I made all the pieces from food coloring," and took it again to

I, like to take things to the extreme. And then we hung it in the bar there in the London bar in Ludgate Circus. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: And the guy from Bass came and saw it, and These are huge pieces, A- A1, AO pieces. And he said, "Oh, yeah. No, I like that idea. Can you tour it round all the All Bar Ones?"

And so we- We were in our 20s, so yeah, we were full of enthusiasm, and yep, sure. We hired a van, and each fortnight we'd take it down, drive to Birmingham, and then take it- Oh my God ... do a private view, take it down and drive to Edinburgh and so on. That's how we began in the hope that somebody somewhere would see it and think, "Oh, we should commission this girl."

Yeah. And no one did till the very, very end at Richmond, and that was the last one. And then we were like, "Oh, this went nowhere." [00:06:00] And then we got a call, "Would you like to do a timeline?" I was like okay." He said, "Yeah. It's for the Globe Theatre. It's the- Wow ... timeline of Shakespeare's life." So that was the first big commission, and it was huge.

And- Yeah ... and that kind of set us off. That then Jill took redundancy and became my business partner and off we went. 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow. Yeah. So Maisie, how did you first get into then the calligraphy, and how did your path lead into working with Kirsten and the team? 

Maisie Minett: I used to be a nursery school... well, work at a nursery school, and I'd always been creative.

Once I had my son, I used to do chalkboards every month. So each month I had to write out a chalkboard with some sort of funky lettering or a number on it and take a photo of him next to it. And I, for that year, his first year, it was every month I was really looking forward to it, doing it [00:07:00] even if he cried whilst I placed him on this chalkboard.

I was like the chalkboard looks great." And then I had my second child, and I still had that creative sort of itch, and childcare wasn't what it had been when I started. I was using all my patience on other people's children and finding mine a little bit irritating at times. And I decided to stop working and try my hand at- being creative full-time.

The idea was that I'd do chalkboards for weddings. I did a bit of pottery. I did a bit of sewing. I did, just l- I was a... If I could make it, I wanted to do it. You know- Yeah ... I could make piped flowers onto cakes and everything. I did a friend's wedding. So as her wedding gift, I said, I'll do all of your place cards.

I'll do you a table plan and a welcome thing, turns out she had a really big wedding. And I had a lot of place cards to do. She [00:08:00] was a little bit of a bridezilla, and things had to be exactly the way that she wanted it to be. And it took me a very long time to write about 200 place cards- 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah

Maisie Minett: because I was doing it all faux calligraphy, which is when you basically write it in a normal fine liner pen or something, and then you have to go over every single letter- Draw over it. Yeah ... yeah, adding in the thick- Yeah ... the thick bits. So if you... it just took a very long time, and I thought, "There has to be another way."

And it just so happened that a couple of months later I went to an open art gallery, art studio thing, which happened to be the home of where Kirsten and Jill had their business. And I gave it a go. They had some little sort of worksheets out. I had a try. I think my son spilled ink everywhere. But I loved it.

Again, didn't really think anything more of it, just that was fun. Then got an email [00:09:00] inviting me to a workshop. I went to the workshop and I just fell in love. It was the happiest I'd been in so long, playing with inks and sparkly paints, and using these tools that could get the thick and thin straight away-

without having to do it all twice.

Kirsten Burke: Most people are shocked how slow calligraphy is, but you were probably- Yeah. I was like- ... busy buzzing. 

Maisie Minett: And I asked straight away if they ever had anyone for work experience to which Jill actually said, "Yes, we often have people..." Oh, no, "We often have-" From schools ..."children from the local secondary school."

I was like, "How about an adult mother of two?" To which she was like, "Oh, and I started a month later, originally just writing out nib again. No, nibs. I'd write nibs again and again on envelopes. But even every day I was getting trained by Kirsten- Yeah ... every day would have a little sort of, you know- 

Kirsten Burke: Moment

Maisie Minett: Yeah, catch up. "Ooh, try [00:10:00] this. Look, this could be a bit bigger. This could be smaller." So it was this real intensive learning, and yeah. And that was it, and that was nearly 10 years ago. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Nine,

Kaylie Edwards: 10 years ago. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. It's how, sometimes that's how it starts, isn't it, is somebody else just does something with you and then they end up getting the skills, and then you end up taking 'em on because you've helped them. It's really, yeah, it's really cool. So what has, for the both of you, like what has changed most between those early days and that business people see today?

Kirsten Burke: There's more of us. Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: So it used to be, at Christmas time, didn't it? It used to be we- 

Maisie Minett: You'd bring people on for Christmas. 

Kirsten Burke: Also, do you remember we would do like a live for one brand? 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: And then we'd have to quickly go and change our makeup and change the background. 

Maisie Minett: COVID.

Was a big change. 

Kirsten Burke: Yes, that's true. That also changed it. 

Maisie Minett: So we did, pre-COVID, everything was in person. We had a

little, a studio. Yeah, true. Gorgeous little substation that was converted, and downstairs was space for a studio. So we'd have weekly workshops there. We'd have probably, [00:11:00] we'd average I'd say a workshop a week if that. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Then COVID hit. For the first couple of months we were like, "

Kirsten Burke: Oh, 

Maisie Minett: ah." 

Kirsten Burke: Actually, - well- Remember

before lockdown, we were quickly trying to, Yeah ... put together YouTube videos and things like that. Yeah. We were 

Maisie Minett: still allowed to be next to each other. To, 

Kirsten Burke: Before it all shut down. So yeah, YouTube started ... and then 

Maisie Minett: we started the 

Kirsten Burke: YouTube channel and did that, and we had my daughter even doing, challenging, calligraphy challenges for children, and we just tried to embrace the fact that everybody was in their homes.

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: And,

Maisie Minett: And then once I started teaching with a document camera, that made a huge change 'cause it meant people could see my hands so close, see everything that's happening, how the tools were working. And then we started doing workshops internationally. Wow. So we would do workshops that didn't involve a kit.

So we would have some brands- [00:12:00] That would do a workshop for their team in the States, a workshop for their teams in the UK, a workshop for their teams in sort of Asia, and i ended up doing about 15 workshops a week. Wow. I'd do something in the morning- Wow ... something lunchtime, and something in the evening, because people were at home.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And it was a way of everyone connecting,

Kirsten Burke: team building. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah, team building. Yeah. And oh my gosh, it was so nice to see people every day. Yeah. Lots of people.

Kirsten Burke: So yeah, so that really did change the whole way we functioned. And then of course we've kept the online teaching. 

Kirsten and Maisie: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: So we can deliver beyond our locality.

Kirsten and Maisie: Yeah. And 

Kirsten Burke: we have tutors now in different parts of the country, so we're able to, so they deliver our content. You 

Maisie Minett: know- So we still do the in person stuff- 

Kirsten Burke: Far and wide, 

Maisie Minett: yes ... because, some people just may not be as computer savvy or they just want that real human [00:13:00] connection. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And then online is great for the people who don't have time to go somewhere else maybe.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. And I suppose it helps as well 'cause of a lot of the COVID situation was a lot of people were lonely, weren't they? Yeah. 'Cause we have been stuck at home and some people didn't have anybody really to- Yeah ... to be around, and that opened up quite a lot I think for a lot of people. And getting back to creativity- Yes

a lot of people had a lot of time on their hands if they were made- They 

Kirsten Burke: Had the time to be able to- Yeah ... to think about that. Yeah, absolutely. 

Maisie Minett: There was a lot of career changes after that. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. There was. 

Maisie Minett: People became more creative, which, and left maybe corporate jobs, teaching jobs to follow, yeah, a life of creativity.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. And a lot of businesses obviously were allowing their staff to work from home and things, so it was like- Yeah, exactly ... oh, I'll do this and then I can go do this, and then I'll do this. Yeah. Like back and forth. Yeah. It gave people a lot more flexibility. Yeah. COVID, I know it, it obviously hurt a lot of people, but it also opened a lot of opportunities for [00:14:00] businesses as well- Yeah

Who were able to embrace the fact that online was gonna be a better opportunity for them- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes ... 

Kaylie Edwards: to move forward. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. And then after COVID, obviously the brands that we had been working for in store started to come back, and that's just grown and grown. So now the team at head office is, half of the team are dealing with the kind of the business, the functionality of delivering these 

Kaylie Edwards: yeah

Kirsten Burke: Brand events and,

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah ... 

Kirsten Burke: it's not just Maisie and I running around doing everything with Jill in the background. It is now a team that handle everything. So that's a huge change. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. So how many people have you have on your staff?

Kirsten Burke: As a company. In head office there's seven of us.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: And then I don't know how many- Maybe- ... there are around the country- 

Maisie Minett: I think we've got- ... freelance ... probably over 200 calligraphers- 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow ... 

Maisie Minett: that we can reach out to, whether it's to do a personalization event at a brand, in store or I think we've probably got about [00:15:00] 10 that we, that will teach for us- 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, 

Maisie Minett: tutors

In person. And then we've got other tutors that will also teach our online content too. 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow. So you have really grown then. We have. Really 

Maisie Minett: grown. Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: That's incredible. It's- So how did the business grow then from the commissioned work side- 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah ... 

Kaylie Edwards: into products and books, workshops and experiences?

Like, how did that...? 

Kirsten Burke: I think we just realized that's what people wanted. ... The commissions- Were, great when they came, but they were few and far between, and We're just trying to listen to what was wanted. Yeah. And then it was Jill that said people aren't buying your artwork, so perhaps it's because they want to learn how to do the artwork."

So then I was forced out into the real world to meet actual people and teach. And it's from teaching workshops and doing that the [00:16:00] book publisher came along to one of those and thought this would be a nice idea for a book. Wow. And so that's how the books came along, and we worked with them for quite a few years developing a range of books.

And from ... And we did then from that, we got an agent for a while, and we had a magazine for a bit. So we really went heavy into the kind of printed matter. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And that's when COVID hit with that 

Kirsten Burke: as well. And that's when COVID hit as well, so the magazine died because obviously no one was going into the shops, and so- 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah

Kirsten Burke: so y- I think the, the key with a creative business is to constantly watch the sea change and try- Yeah ... and be moving with it rather than steadfastly going- Yeah ... "Yes, but I like to do this." Yes. That's ... You can't make a living that way. You have to be adaptable, and then you have to flow with where the money is really.

You can't- Yeah ... be so precious. 

Maisie Minett: And you still do [00:17:00] commissions. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: You

Kirsten Burke: they still come in from time to time, but it's certainly not what is keeping us afloat anymore. It's much more about the teaching and the brand activations now. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, and I suppose the commissions would have took a lot of time to do- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes

Kaylie Edwards: as well. Yeah. Which obviously limits you then as well- Yeah ... to be able to move in a different direction. 

Kirsten Burke: Yes. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. So how did the, like the, the experiences happen? What and what's that entail with the experiences? 

Kirsten Burke: With the brands? 

Kaylie Edwards: Brands, yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: For many years with Jo Malone.

Yeah, candle 

Kaylie Edwards: company. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah ... that had big, marketing campaigns and things. So I'd been working with them, going into store Jo Malone London, and sitting in their pop-up shops or Selfridges and Harrods and so on, and just personalizing things. And I think- 

Maisie Minett: What I quite like here is that you, when you say personalizing things- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes

Maisie Minett: you were writing on note cards, weren't you, originally? 

Kirsten Burke: [00:18:00] Yes. That's true, yes. 

Maisie Minett: And I think that's quite funny, this story. Yes, that's 

Kirsten Burke: true. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. If she tells this story, it's quite 

Kirsten Burke: funny. I hadn't occurred to me. I'd forgotten that. So yeah. And I kept saying, I could write on the boxes." No."

And I was like, "I really, I could. Shall I do a couple of boxes?" And, "No. No thank you. Just keep on the note cards." And so slowly I would push, and there was a wonderful woman, a, a sort of head of marketing. And in the end she allowed me to do some work on the boxes, and from that then we were, we started to do the boxes.

And then we said, "We could do it on the bottles." "Oh, but how..." So we've pushed. And they've worked with us, and they've been fantastic. 

Maisie Minett: But what I love is that I can picture Kirsten originally just sitting there very prim and proper, just doing these note cards.

And having known her, like other creatives of outputs that are just have so much energy to them and things, suddenly when they are on these boxes, that's such a change. And now, even if [00:19:00] you just look on personalized boxes nationally for Jo Malone or London or something, all around the world there are artists that are working on boxes.

In again, Asia there's they do these amazing sort of boxes, and they're, they can there's... I don't know if there's more freedom there or if it's just people working on their own, but now there's so much more, and it all just started from Kirsten not being allowed to write on a box.

And now suddenly they're like, "Yeah, let's do this."

Kirsten Burke: Yeah, they, obviously they could see that making the packaging personal- Yeah ... was a, a, a sell. And then people would buy more because they could see that this was a nice gift for this person, and this person. So the, the sales would increase and, who doesn't love a bit of personalization?

Kaylie Edwards: No. 

Maisie Minett: Everybody loves some- And I think that's where, partly where we've grown is that we offer personalization that is- so [00:20:00] say a brand that has multiple stores around the UK, they can have personalization potentially all on the same weekend, but also know that it's going to be of the same standard throughout.

Yeah. So that's something that the team at the, at our head office will do by, finding the correct calligraphers with the correct skills. We come up with a brief between as a team. We write a brief, we do mock-ups. We 

Kirsten Burke: test all the styles ... 

Maisie Minett: yeah, test everything, make sure that the colors are right, make sure that the materials we're using last or work, don't rub off.

And so we do all of that so that a brand knows that if it's a launch of a new product, if it is a, just a celebration of some sort of event, that a customer can go to a store in- London or a store in Manchester or a store in Bath and know [00:21:00] that they are going to be getting the customer service, that finished product that they want, and there's not going to be the ones that you're like, "Ooh, God, really?"

It's all positive. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. And that's what, it gives that exclusivity as well for a brand, doesn't it? Yeah ... 'cause obviously it's limited- 

Maisie Minett: Yes ... 

Kaylie Edwards: in a way. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. So how did you decide then whether an idea that you have come up with belongs either on a product or in a class or in the club, or is a live brand experience?

Kirsten Burke: Generally the brand come to us. So they'll say "We are doing a launch of a product," or, "It is Father's Day and we'd like to push out this product," or, so we come up with then ways to, for our artists to work on the boxes or the bottles and- 

Maisie Minett: A style. 

Kirsten Burke: We'll come up with 

a style and, yeah, and bat that back and forth with the client until it's agreed, and then we write the brief and we explain to all our [00:22:00] artists and off they go. So they come to us generally, a bit like a commission. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Then what quite often happens is, say we've been doing that process and we've come up with four ideas and they decide to go with two of them, we've then potentially got two ideas that we can run with for- Yeah

our own something, and that's where we may put it into work that we do for the club which is our, it's a monthly subscription as such, but where we do a monthly project and there's every week we do an online session. So it could be live it is live, but people often watch it on catch-up.

And it is a different project, a different creative project. Normally with as much as possible, with calligraphy as the center. However, we're all quite creative and sometimes we go- ... a little bit more maybe illustration or construction of some sort of paper [00:23:00] goods. But that, those ideas often are from something we've done or put forward for a brand or- Yeah, just 

Kirsten Burke: That's what's quite fun about the business because also then in the club we have these projects that we're create- Maisie and I are coming up with each month to deliver.

So then that if there's one that's popular, we'll pull it out and make it a workshop that people can teach and attend in real life. 

Maisie Minett: And then also it might go back to a brand. It might be something that the brand's "We saw you did this"- Yeah ... "Can you do a version of that?" So it's all interlinked really.

Kaylie Edwards: Interlinked, yeah. That's how you know a business is working sustainably because you've got things feeding it. 

Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: And you get ideas from one and then you can put it in another- Yeah ... kind of space. 

Kirsten Burke: Yes. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, so Maisie, what have you learnt from the teaching and from working directly with people at the live events that you could not have learnt behind the scenes?

Maisie Minett: There [00:24:00] is a little bit of an element of being thrown in at the deep end when you do your very first event. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: However, I have, obviously I had Kirsten training me from the get-go and it's something that we now train as well for so that people don't, aren't feeling like for their first event they're on their own and flailing.

So we do, I do teach as much of that as possible, but I think just it's about connecting with the customers. It's again, about listening to what they want, remembering what the brand want, but also at the end of the day, the brand want the customers to be happy. So sometimes you have to do what the customer wants and just- Just don't take a photo of

it. I suppose it's working out how to deal with issues, if you've got issues, moody customers. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. That sort of thing. And also it's, it's dealing with people watching you do your work. Yeah. Can be slightly intimidating. 

Kaylie Edwards: Nerve-wracking. [00:25:00] Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: When I used to, I don't do- Yeah

live events much anymore, but that was the, the general comment was like, "Do you mind if I watch?" Or, "Do you mind if I video you?" And it's "Oh, I don't know." Now with social media, I'm much more used to having a camera there and filming, but back then- Yeah ... it was slightly intimidating and like- 

Maisie Minett: Someone with a big VHS camera machine- Oh, yeah

and a big boom microphone over you.

Under the angle. But I just, I love the personalized events. I love the experiences that I've had, the places I've been. As a team, this year we sent a calligrapher off to Monaco to do the Grand Prix. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh, wow. 

Maisie Minett: It, yeah, lovely. I had to stay in parent. I'm a little bitter about it, but my children are really happy that I was at home.

There'll be more. But we do really fun things, and everyone's different as well, and if it's the customers, it's the people in store, the [00:26:00] staff. The brands are great. 

Kirsten Burke: And it's buzzy, when people come and see if you're in store or doing an event, people are fascinated by what you're doing, so that's nice.

Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And I have to say the most stressful thing about, I find about live events is the before bit. It's the making sure I get the right train. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: That my train isn't delayed. When I work at airports, it's the every five minutes checking that I've got my passport. Even though I know I've got it, I'll get on the train and be like, "Have I got?

Yeah, I've got it." And then I'll have this idea of, "Oh, maybe I didn't pick it up, so I've got to check again." And that's the most stressful bit, honestly. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. It's making sure you get there on time with everything- Yes ... isn't it? Yeah. It's like the prep before- Yeah ... that's what sends you into a bit of a tizz before- Yeah

doesn't it? Yeah. But 

Maisie Minett: actually once I'm there- It's just 

Kirsten Burke: settle in and 

Maisie Minett: enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. It's one of them things, isn't it? I like some people are just so natural with it, but majority of people aren't naturally like being watched. 

Maisie Minett: I, yeah, I am a bit- of a [00:27:00] show-off, so I'm- ... I'm all right with that Most of the time. Unless it's a really difficult something to spell or I'm working on, maybe I'm having to fit a lot of letters onto a very small space- 

Kirsten Burke: Or 

Maisie Minett: when- ... then I'm a little bit like- 

Kirsten Burke: Or when you had to do that very expensive trainers. 

Maisie Minett: Oh, the trainers and the watch.

Oh, let's not talk about that. I had to do a watch. It was for a brand, and the trainers were really expensive. Oh, God. And someone asked... I was doing engrav- I was actually engraving on perfumes for them. They had a perfume with the brand. And someone said, "Can you engrave on my watch?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, sure."

And he said, "I just want my initials." I was like, "Great." And he said, "Can I have three?" And in my mind I went like I, I. I'm like, "Yeah, that's not long." And then he said it was like something like WMG, so they were the widest letters- Letters, yeah ... and it was on this tiny watch. And it was [00:28:00] fine in the end, but even now, right now I'm sweaty just thinking about it, 'cause I should have just said, "What are the initials?"

"I'm afraid I can only do two," or something like that. Yeah. Or just no would have also been fine because I was meant to be engraving perfume. 

Kirsten Burke: And how much was the watch worth? 

Maisie Minett: Actually not as much as I thought- Oh, really? Okay ... in the end. But I think partly if I'd known that it wasn't as expensive, 'cause I thought it would be more than a pair of trainers, but it turned out the trainers were even more than the watch.

Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Wow. Oh. So what decision or experiment helped the business kind of grow in the way you did not expect? 

Kirsten Burke: I think the turnaround of COVID turning things online was a real- I- ... milestone ... 

Maisie Minett: so pre-COVID we did courses, and the thing with courses was we'd do them in person. If you [00:29:00] missed a session, you missed a session.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: There wasn't really a catch-up. So when we started online, there was, everything was recorded so people could watch. But it meant that we were, for a while, just making course after course. You were writing it. Yeah. I was delivering it. And we had these sort of key people who found us during COVID and wanted to stick by us, and it was great.

But we got to a stage where how much more courses can we run for, not loads of people. It- 

Kirsten Burke: But you're right. We had this core group that were saying, "We've done all your courses and we'd like to keep learning. What can we do now?" And we have some downloads that you can buy and things, but that, it was them knocking at our door that then- Yeah

I was like, "Okay, perhaps we need some kind of club." 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. And so I think that was April, 2022. Yeah. I think it was 1st

[00:30:00] of April it opened 'cause we were like, "Oh, it'll be April Fool's Day." Yeah. It'll be great. But we opened our door, the doors of the Modern Calligraphy Club to our founding members. The majority of them are still members now, and then we've, had more each month. And I think I didn't see that coming.

I didn't see that... I suppose I didn't see that there'd be people who would want to be with us, be with me. Like- 

Kirsten Burke: I know. That's- 

Maisie Minett: I, I didn't see that ... 

Kirsten Burke: I think that's the best bit about our business really, is that there's a whole group of people that are like our family really that know you particularly inside out, that know me because we've been teaching them for so long.

We've had the club, so they're seeing us constantly, and we're in their home because it's online. So we're keeping each other company, and now we run retreats. Weekend retreats. [00:31:00] So they all come to these retreats and we spend the weekends together. We're doing one in Belfast in April. And they've already, seven or eight of them already booked on, no question they're coming.

And so we've got a real core of people that behind us and care about us as well, and we care about them. So that kind of really- 

Maisie Minett: Yeah, and 

Kirsten Burke: I think- Is something special ... 

Maisie Minett: yeah, we know, I know about their families, when they've got grandchildren, when, sad things happen, and I think for the...

it's a lovely community that I didn't, like I say, I didn't think would come from this. Yeah. Because the- No ... there is the bit, all the live events and the shiny lights, and the... I do a lot of work with influencers, writing on things and meeting them and teaching online to thousands of people at a time, which is all great and, exciting.

But actually, getting to see friendly faces every week is brilliant. [00:32:00] I really love that. Gosh, I didn't realize I liked it quite so much. 

Kirsten Burke: Getting all emotional. I 

Maisie Minett: am. 

Kaylie Edwards: That's lovely. Kirsten, how do you protect your time for your own creativity and your own creative direction while leading the team-

and running the business kind of thing? 

Kirsten Burke: I'm not brilliant at that. I do tend to work- 

Maisie Minett: All the 

Kirsten Burke: time ... all the time. But I do quite like my job, so- Yeah ... it's not terrible. I have started to go to a, a live drawing class on a Saturday morning, which is just for no, no reason other than- Your 

Kaylie Edwards: own enjoyment, 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah, for me to have some fun. And because although I like, I do really enjoy home, interior design and doing my home and changing things around, and also the garden I love. But I felt like perhaps I needed to- ... to leave these four walls from time to time. So yeah I've started to do that.

But I've got kids, and my daughter's still young and I don't... I'll, I'll- 

Maisie Minett: We'll get there ... 

Kirsten Burke: I'll get [00:33:00] there. 

Kaylie Edwards: I think that's a thing for creative people, isn't it? I find that with a lot of creative people, is we always seem to carry on. Yes. And everything expands, and you just keep going out, and then you're like, "Oh, I'll do it later.

I'll find time later." And then, yeah, it seeps in all the areas and, yeah. As long as, I think as long as you enjoy it and you're not leading yourself to burning out, I think- 

Yeah ... 

it's not such a bad idea, especially if you're, like, a multi-passionate person- Yeah ... and you've got your hat hand in a lot of different things, then- Yeah

I think some people don't quite get it. But when you know that person you do. 

Maisie Minett: Yes. And that's probably also why it's quite good that there are almost different- stems to the business, that you're not constantly just doing one thing. Yes. You're not always just looking at the website- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes ... 

Maisie Minett: doing that. 

Kirsten Burke: I think then you would burn out.

Maisie Minett: Yeah. Because actually you get a little bit of a break from that- Yeah ... and then you do a bit of the club stuff, which is different- Yeah ... and then you do a bit of the... As long as it's not too scrambled. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. And also we [00:34:00] have got a team now, if I'm swamped, I can hand work over to Maisie, and we've got Sarah who's joined the team.

And Emily. So there are other people. So it kind of- It's not 

Kaylie Edwards: all on 

Kirsten Burke: you ... it's not all on me. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: Once upon a time it was just me and Jill, and that was that. So yeah. So compared to that it's a breeze. I can ask somebody to do something for me, and, and- Delegate

it's working really well. So yeah. It's great. 

Kaylie Edwards: So how with it being a bigger team, like how do you track everything? Do you use like a certain software or-

Kirsten Burke: we just 

Kaylie Edwards: meet ... how do 

Kirsten Burke: you 

Kaylie Edwards: track stuff? You just meet? 

Kirsten Burke: We just have a weekly meeting. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. I'd say most of us are in the studio every day.

Probably m- maybe everyone has one day where they may work from home. Couple of them are part-time. But yeah, face-to-face meetings is- Yeah ... what 

Kirsten Burke: we do. So that we've all, we all catch up. We all discuss, new work that's come in, where we're up to with a certain project what we're gonna focus on, and so on.

So [00:35:00] we might have little breakout discussions, but essentially it all kind of channels through Jill. Jill is the mastermind. She's navigating the whole thing. 

Maisie Minett: She's got a big diary of- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes ... 

Maisie Minett: scribbles. 

Kaylie Edwards: Ah, so she's the tracker? Yes. We've, 

Kirsten Burke: We have- She's the personal tracker.

Kaylie Edwards: She keeps everyone. 

Kirsten Burke: Yes. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah, we've tried apps. We've tried various different websites and software things, and w- it just takes so much longer than saying, "I've done that. It's in the drive." 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Because you're, "Okay, done. Great." Yeah. Move on. But I think, yeah, just for us, whether it's that we...

I think you're quite often, in the studio we've definitely got the creative bunch and the ones who like spreadsheets. Nadi. But it means that so far we haven't found a software that works for that- For 

Kaylie Edwards: everybody. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah ... 

Maisie Minett: because it is so different. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. We just [00:36:00] all rely on Jill to just keep us on track, and she just is you need to get that out, and this needs to be delivered, and this, where are we with this?"

And she just is like- She always tells 

Maisie Minett: us to diarize. "Have you diarized

that?" And you're like- Yes, I have now.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. I think it just depends, 'cause obviously some creative minds are really good with still systems and things. I think it also depends if you've had a job before and you've gone down that direction, and then the creative things just keep, kinda keeps you alight.

Whereas some people are just so creative they just can't systemize anything, and it just ... Yeah. Oh, 

Maisie Minett: yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: I have to put something down, 'cause if I keep it in my brain I'll forget it. I have to put it in my notes or something. Yeah. Or ... Yeah. I've tried different softwares. I've tried Asana. That didn't work.

I tried ClickUp. I was kinda sticking to that, but then I didn't like how it wasn't as very visual. I didn't like the non-visual side of it, and I was like, "No, I can't do this." So I went back to Notion. We tried Trello 

Maisie Minett: for a while, 

Kirsten Burke: but I didn't like- Yeah. We have tried a few, but- 

Maisie Minett: I liked that you could [00:37:00] make the Post-Its different colors.

That was great. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. So you just spent time making it look pretty. 

Maisie Minett: Where we just use the Drive cloudy thing to put things in- Yeah ... I do organize mine there, and I have things filed by if it's done with a brush pen it's tagged orange, and if it's done with a pointed nib it's tagged gray or something.

I've got that sort of system. So you've- But it's only for- 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. You've got kinda like your personal systems in a way- Yeah ... to track things that are personalized to you. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Whereas Kirsten just knows where everything is. So you know if you've got a- 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. I can just remember everything to do with work and nothing else 

Maisie Minett: True story.

So 

Kaylie Edwards: if it's personal, it's yeah, I don't- 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah ... don't 

Kaylie Edwards: remember 

Kirsten Burke: that. Yeah, if it's my daughter's flute recital. 

Maisie Minett: She doesn't play the flute. She 

Kirsten Burke: might. She forgot that here at home. I won't know. Yeah, I struggle to remember family obligations, but If you want that worksheet I did in 1992, [00:38:00] I'm on it.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. Google Calendar is my personal- 

Kirsten Burke: Oh, yes. That's quite useful. I know. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. If I've got an appointment or something to do with the thing. School is just, yeah, I can't keep up with school- Too many ... 'cause they're always sending me notifications and I'm like- Yeah. ... how am I supposed to remember all this stuff you keep- Yeah

sending me? 

Kirsten Burke: I 

Kaylie Edwards: know. Oh, you need to take money in for this charity next week, or you need a shoebox because you need to do this. Yeah. I'm like 

Maisie Minett: what's happening? They're singing at the cathedral, and then a church the following week, and then in the center of town. I'm like- ... okay. Which do I have to be there?

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: I would like to be there, but also I'm not always 

Kaylie Edwards: going to be able to. Yeah. Sometimes they send me messages and I'm like, is that related to my son's class or is this a different class? I don't know. Yeah. Just don't tell you. 

Kirsten Burke: Yes. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. Although I take him the day. You'd 

Kirsten Burke: think they might warn you with 

Kaylie Edwards: one child.

Yes, yeah. Schools, yeah. So Maisie, what kind of happens behind the scenes on a luxury brand event from the brief preparation to the personalization of the pieces ? 

Maisie Minett: So with that, [00:39:00] the brief... so a brand will contact either Jill or our events manager called Katherine.

They will come to them, and they will normally call us all for a little meeting again in the studio. So someone will put the coffee on. We'll all sit, and we'll listen and come up with ideas. Then Kirsten, myself, and Emily who are, like, the creative ones, we will come up with possibilities. My thing is that I often go too deep down one route, and I have to remember that actually if we just do the quick ideas first, work out if any of them are suitable before concentrating on going down one route too much.

Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah, so we need... Basically, we're, what we're doing is trying to come up with something that the client will like, but quite quickly because if we go, "Yeah, here you go. Here's five ideas," and they say, "No, none of those," I don't want Maisie to have spent three days- 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah ... 

Kirsten Burke: working on that.

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: So it's just trying to , get the client's mind in your mind [00:40:00] and work out what it is they're after, and then from there working out how we can deliver it.

Maisie Minett: Yeah. So we'll often get the brand to send us products that, so it might just be empty bottles of something or packaging so that we can test. Yeah. Once we've got an idea of what they want, we need to make sure how can we do that? We usually on live events try and have a maximum of sort of five minutes per item depending how busy the event is meant to be, things like that.

So we need to make sure that we've got materials that are going to dry quickly or that they're going to last long enough or, forever ideally. So we'll do all of the sampling. Then once everything's been passed off by the brand, we will then put a brief together. The dates will get given by the brand and our events team will find the calligraphers for them.

And- 

Kirsten Burke: All those calligraphers send in their- 

Maisie Minett: [00:41:00] Yeah ... 

Kirsten Burke: their testing. 

Maisie Minett: So once they've got the brief, they have to show us that, they can do that style. A brief would tend to have an alphabet in it, so lowercase capitals, any key phrases written in that style and maybe some other words, shown where they would be placed on a box, on a bottle, on a bag that sort of thing.

Kirsten and Maisie: Okay. 

Maisie Minett: Basically so that the calligrapher can print out that brief or look it over, know that they can do the style, and they don't have to think about anything else. They can just deliver it. So the aim is that it makes it easier for them. And yeah. And then when they arrive at an event, we also need to know that they're there.

We've had, I think there has been a time when someone got the date wrong, and they said they arrived. Oh, gosh. Luckily, I think it was that they said they had arrived and they were a day early rather than they didn't arrive at all. Oh, or if they've gone to a different location, 'cause I think for example, In Manchester, There's two- Yeah, two

that are very similar in Manchester. [00:42:00] Making sure that. Oh. And then also they just need to send a picture of what they've done as a little sort of a test, and we can just say if there are any issues and say, "That's fine, but be careful. It's drifting a little bit over to the right. Just make sure it's balanced."

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And then that's it. Oh, and then we do go back to the event afterwards to the brand and just say, "Here are some images from the events you had this weekend." You know- ha- say how it was, how busy they were, and things like that. 

Kaylie Edwards: That's cool, yeah. So how do you train and support other calligraphers while keeping the quality consistent and making the business viable?

Maisie Minett: So we run a, probably twice a year now what we call a master class on live event calligraphy. We have, we invite calligraphers who have potentially done a lot of our courses people who, want to take that next step, maybe like the idea of changing their career or [00:43:00] they already do calligraphy but want to do more varied things and more events.

And they do our course. And then we do a little, I'd say a test, but that sounds scary. It's not like that. They send over images, and I let them know if I think they're at a stage where they are ready to do live events- Yeah ... or what aspect they need to focus on so that they can be ready to do live events.

And then they get added to our database. And then that's where we take our calligraphers from for events. And it also means that they develop the skills to do events on their own, so they don't only have to work through us. We talk about making sure that you're working your worth, getting paid your worth.

Kirsten Burke: Yeah, getting paid. And Jill does a session on health and safety and insurance and all the, the business-y side of things so that they're set up with an understanding that if, yeah, if they obviously can work for us if we think they're good enough, but they could go off and, 

Kaylie Edwards: [00:44:00] do their own.

Yeah ... 

Kirsten Burke: work for whoever. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh, that's really cool. So what does the Modern Calligraphy Club offer people beyond learning the technique, and what have members taught you? 

Maisie Minett: Oh, community is definitely it. You'll make me 

Kirsten Burke: cry again ... 

Maisie Minett: yeah, watch out. I think, but every week, or every month it's a different project.

We're definitely not, we're not concentrating on one technique. There are so many different techniques in modern calligraphy, whether it is using a pointed nib to do a quite spiky style or something a bit more rounded, flamboyant, flourished. 

Kirsten Burke: When we started the club, the worksheets I made were teaching.

One month was bounce and one month was, ... yeah, it was much more about a technique. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: And we didn't feel it worked very well. It wasn't, it, I don't know. It didn't flow. So we quickly switched and we made it a project. Like a [00:45:00] Victorian, what are they called?

Maisie Minett: Puzzle. 

Kirsten Burke: Puzzle purse thing. Purse. And a a recipe card or a music poster or, and by doing that- 

Maisie Minett: So you had a finished project ... 

Kirsten Burke: so you would- Yeah ... you're working towards something, and within that project, obviously you had to learn to work with a smaller nib and work a smaller scale and the larger, brush pen.

And so you were having to try things out- 

Maisie Minett: The teaching was- Within it ... becoming much more natural. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: There were, there's definitely little elements of teaching, again, that you wouldn't think would necessarily happen. It might be that someone's watching and they ask a question that, I didn't think about because I've done calligraphy for so long now.

I think I'm pretty good. No, I'd say I am good at teaching. I'm gonna be confident with that one. But there are definitely some of those aspects that you do just take for granted. And so having people live ask you questions is [00:46:00] so good. It's so useful. It's so helpful. Sometimes it's just that haven't - got to that bit yet, but sometimes it is the, "Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of it like that.

Let me see if there's a different way of informing you or teaching that." I think learning from our students, our club members, they're just all, they're kind ... respectful. Yeah. They're not competitive. No. 

Kirsten Burke: I 

Maisie Minett: think that was something that I was very early on worried that- Yeah

There'd be people... 'Cause we've got some calligraphers, some of our members do produce work that you're like, "Phwoar. I couldn't do that. That's incredible." And what I didn't want to happen was that to put other people off, and- Yeah ... it hasn't. No. We've made a real effort to make sure that everybody feels welcome, that it's a fun 

Kirsten Burke: thing.

And also it's a way for them, we're not there the whole time, so they're still chatting. There's, the feeds are talking about, who's tried this and has someone tried a foiling pen, do you have a recommendation? [00:47:00] And so they're able to share all of this in a kind of closed space.

You don't have- 

Maisie Minett: There's no 

Kirsten Burke: adverts popping up all the 

Maisie Minett: time ... 

Kirsten Burke: the worry that Facebook there might be some sort of strange person lurking. It's all within this, this special space. 

Maisie Minett: And people have met up. Like people, we had a few people who all met up and actually went over to Northern Ireland, and they'd met through us Like that was just, it's amazing.

And some that just, the I've, there's a, a couple who they met on a 10-week course. Not a couple like a romantic couple, two people. They met on one of the 10-week courses during COVID, and they still talk to each other every week now. They're club members, but they have their own friendship that has developed, again, through us, and that's brilliant.

It's 

Kirsten Burke: Great. Yeah. It's beyond our expectations, the club. It's really an amazing thing. Yeah. An amazing creature. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. I'm in a few like creative [00:48:00] communities. Delores, who's my co-host and my client and my friend, she's been for, since like 2023, and I've been in her membership and her community.

And you just see all this connection that goes on. And I edit her Thrive meetings every Wednesday. She has it on a Tuesday night our time. So it's like really late, so by the time I get to edit it, it's in the morning on a Wednesday. And I'll just listen to it, and I laugh because I'm editing it, and I'm just listening to the conversation people are having- Aw

and it's just, it's so funny. And then two people met up who are different ends of America, and one was going on a road trip and they went that, and they met the husbands and everything, and it was just so lovely- That's so lovely ... and they 

Maisie Minett: were sharing their experiences. Oh, 

Kaylie Edwards: yes. And 

it's just, you know- 

Maisie Minett: And I, we had someone comment the other day saying, "I've just watched the recording of this, and I found myself nodding, talking, and answering back to Maisie or something."

And I was like, she's, "And you weren't even there." Yeah. Because it's that- Yeah ... I think it's that relaxed atmosphere. Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And what I've now started doing [00:49:00] is, say for example, the session starts at 7:30. They're an hour. I will often say, "I'm going to be on the Zoom call from 7:15, so if you just fancy a chat, we'll start it a little bit early so that..."

'Cause there are people who just, it's nice to talk to and they just want to, yeah, chat. So that's nice. So it doesn't take away from the learny bit as well. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, that's brilliant. So when the business is busy or like plans change, what helps each of you protect the joy and the boundaries and life outside of work?

Maisie Minett: I go to the gym right next to work. So if it's been a sort of stressful morning and I've got the time, like, and I've got, not got a deadline, I will maybe take myself out for the gym for an hour- Yeah ... and then come back. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: Also where we work is, it's beautiful. One of our team members goes for a walk every day as a break.

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Maisie Minett: And that's sort of- Yeah ... especially when the weather's nice. It's been gorgeous. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. And we live by the sea. It [00:50:00] is quite, it's like being on holiday the whole time, so- In the summer ... in the 

Maisie Minett: summer. Yeah. Let's... Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: Okay. Yeah. In the winter, not so much. It's the UK. Emily goes surfing, and we've got the beach nearby, so there is the opportunity to just make a break for it.

Maisie Minett: It's a flexible work environment as well. Emily will go surfing if the surf's up. I have no idea what that means. But she will look at a, there's some sort of camera showing what the waves are doing, and she's like, They're up ... breaking," and- They're surf ready

"I'll be in at 10:00." And you're like, "Okay." Whatever that means. Actually, she does that in the winter, doesn't she? Yeah. That's when she 

Kaylie Edwards: goes. One of my friends, she does surfing. She goes down to Cornwall at whatever time of the year. Yeah. And I'm just like, "Why?" Freezing. 

Kirsten Burke: Just torturing yourself. 

Maisie Minett: It's not my thing.

Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: There's a sauna on the beach where we are, and so- 

Maisie Minett: Oh, I like that. 

Kirsten Burke: That's a thing. Yeah. Jill and her cronies- Yeah ... they all go in the winter, sit in the sauna, and then they run down to the sea and go in the [00:51:00] sea. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh my gosh. 

Kirsten Burke: It sounds horrible, but they love it. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh, my 

Kirsten Burke: goodness. I'm sure.

Maisie Minett: Yeah. But also I think where we have an open plan office, which probably may Jill will disagree with, but we can chat. As long as it's not totally taking us away from our work, it's friendly. We are in love. We're a team that get on. Yeah, 

Kirsten Burke: everyone's- 

Maisie Minett: We bicker ... e- 

Kirsten Burke: everyone likes each other.

Maisie Minett: We bicker, but more like friends rather than, colleagues, I would say. Rather than, yeah it's positive. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. That's a good work environment. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. Everyone cares about the business and obviously enjoys their job, so wants the business to keep going. To thrive, 

Kaylie Edwards: yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: That's their priority.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. That's really good. 

Kirsten Burke: We're all passionate. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, sounds really good. So Kirsten, what would you tell the earlier version of yourself about growing beyond a solo creative practice? 

Kirsten Burke: I think just that fear [00:52:00] of failure, you have to overcome it, and you just have to step out of that and just try it.

So you know that I have had- To force myself constantly out of my comfort zone and push myself to be more outgoing and more public facing and all these things and embrace other people. Jill's much more naturally community and, she likes to have lots of friends and is quite comfortable in the community.

I'm much more introverted. So for me it was a real challenge to say, "Okay, on Instagram you... Let's collaborate with somebody." I was like terrified of such a thing. Yeah. And now it feels second nature to do that kind of stuff. But- 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah ... 

Kirsten Burke: all of that business, you can't be you in a little shell. You have to be reaching out to other people and-

that's the way to grow. 

Maisie Minett: I'd say also- Yeah ... bringing others on board. Yes. So where Kirsten isn't [00:53:00] necessarily that outgoing person when it comes to teaching and events, I am. Yeah. So I can go and do that sort of thing if needs be. Yeah. But also realizing that you can do it, that- Yeah

you- 

Kirsten Burke: But I think also- You just need a 

Maisie Minett: break after ... 

Kirsten Burke: yeah. And I need to have a long lie down after talking. And also, yeah, just believing that you can grow a team that, that they all have their skills and their strengths and together bringing it all in.

So- Yeah ... Emily particularly I think has grown into from being really just clearing up after workshops she's now our main- 

Maisie Minett: She's the one who got to go to Monaco. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. Wow. She's, along with Maisie, she's our main events person. She's out there- Yeah ... doing that. She's teaching online. She's- 

Maisie Minett: And you wouldn't have thought 

Kirsten Burke: even, I'd say, two years ago- 

Maisie Minett: Amazing 

Kirsten Burke: woman.

Yeah. So she's just- She was 

Maisie Minett: just in 

Kirsten Burke: the water surfing ... blossomed. Yeah. Just, believing that- 

Maisie Minett: Growth can happen ... 

Kirsten Burke: that it can happen and, [00:54:00] why not? It's such a amazing business to be in that- Yeah When people are in it, they want to continue being in it, so that's really good.

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. That's really good, and obviously plays to people's strengths, isn't it? And then I think once you get to know somebody, then you can direct them- in their direction and get... As long as they get the practice in and they... You can encourage it. People flourish, don't 

Kirsten Burke: they? Yes.

Yeah. Even with Sarah, the other day, she's quite new on the team, and then she used to have a, was it an embroidery business? Fabric-y. A fabrics business. Fabrics. And and that does embroidery. And then she, by chance, said, "Oh, yeah, I used to run my company on Wix as well," which is the platform we run our website on.

I was like, "Okay, this is useful." So could you put the case studies up?" "Oh, yes, I can do." So you're kinda just seeing where someone can help you and building that in. Yeah. And now she can put the case studies together, and that's brilliant because that's one less thing that I have to do, and means I'm freed up to do something else.

But [00:55:00] that's how it rolls, yeah, 

Kaylie Edwards: that's really good. 

Kirsten Burke: So it's just finding out what strengths people have. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. I think that's part of, obviously, running a business is you need to have that head on is when you bring somebody on is what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses, direct them in the right direction, and what frees me up.

If it doesn't light you up or you're bored of it, then you burn out, don't you? That you need to be able to delegate it off to somebody else. 

Yeah, 

exactly. And that's how a business can grow in a way. Yeah, so what... Maisie What practical advice would you give a creative who wants to teach or work at live events?

Maisie Minett: Ooh. So this is a tricky one because on one side of what I do, I have to encourage and... I don't have to, I want to. I encourage people to get out of their comfort zone, try things, not give up if it's not right straight away, keep practicing. And on the other hand, I have to be this strict person who [00:56:00] if something isn't right for an event, I need to get it right and I need to let them know that it's not quite right yet.

So I want to be this total sort of supporter of, we don't need perfection, we don't need this stuff, and there is definitely an element of that in live event calligraphy. We're not looking for you to write Merry Christmas exactly the same 20 times, because do you know what? They could print that.

We want it to have a bit of personalization. But what I do want it to be is Merry Christmas written 20 times, centered, and not drifting off the page. So there's this sort of, this thin line between wanting to encourage, but also making sure that I am encouraging, but also guiding and- 

Kirsten Burke: And getting the good results.

Maisie Minett: Yes. Getting the results. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. It's like you have to critique, don't you? You have to be able to tell them what they need to tighten up. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. And also what I really don't want to do is people to do our masterclass in live event calligraphy, [00:57:00] for them to, complete it and me to go, " Oh, yeah, great.

We loved you to your f- our books." And then never use them 'cause they're not actually where we need them to be. So

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah ... 

Maisie Minett: I make sure I'm always honest with people. I will give them as much support as possible. Sometimes I, like I say, I will guide them, whether it's, to do a different course or to have some time with me to, focus on a certain element, send over images to me so I can critique them and send them back.

I don't want anyone to just finish the course and be like, "Oh, where am I? I don't know what to do." I want to be part of that journey and guide them. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. That's really good. So for both of you, what does creative joy mean to you now, and where can listeners find your work? 

Maisie Minett: So creative joy to me now A 

Kaylie Edwards: big question 

Maisie Minett: It is, it's a big question.

When you're creative and you're in a creative industry And like I said earlier, I used to do pottery, and baking, and sewing, and things like that, and I don't [00:58:00] think I've got the brain width and the brain space. I haven't got the time, actually- Yeah ... to do all of that at the moment. But I do find little pockets of creative joy.

For example, my daughter just got a new school bag, and it's a really horrible sort of sports bag, which I absolutely hate because I feel like everyone could have it. So I've actually embroidered flowers all over it to make it something that- Different ... a, yeah, a little bit, I say a little bit more her.

Maybe I needed it to be a little bit more me. More you, yeah. But she loves it. She's really pleased with it, and that was lovely developing that with her. I think definitely sharing creativity is more what I'm into now, rather than just necessarily just doing it for 

Kirsten Burke: myself- yeah ... 

Maisie Minett: even if I force it upon others.

Kirsten Burke: Whereas for me, the business itself is my kind of creative- joy. Yeah. I love... it comes with its own, as any small business owner knows, it, it peaks and troughs, and the [00:59:00] stress, and the, all those things. But what is wonderful about it is like a creative project. You can say this idea, that idea.

We could do this. Let's try that." And it, the kind of options are endless. So I see the whole business really as a bit of Play-Doh that you can mold and take the way you want it to go. 

Maisie Minett: I also think there's a lot of yes in what we do. I don't feel like we're constantly being told, "No, don't do that.

No, you can't do that." I think a lot of the time we're like, "Oh, yes." Yeah. "How can we do 

Kirsten Burke: that?" Yeah. And that's really 

Maisie Minett: lovely. Yeah. Yeah ... and then we've obviously things on social media. 

Kirsten Burke: Yep. 

Maisie Minett: So- 

Kirsten Burke: Oh, so yeah, how can you find us? Yeah. We're on Instagram, on Facebook. We've got some YouTube tutorials and things, and- 

Maisie Minett: There's a bit on TikTok

Kirsten Burke: there's a, we're trying to- ... get on TikTok. 

Maisie Minett: It's over my head. Yeah. It makes me feel like a grandma trying to TikTok. 

Kirsten Burke: We're a little bit TikTokky. [01:00:00] And then we have the website, And the 

Maisie Minett: club ... 

Kirsten Burke: and the club, and all our classes. So yeah, it's all there. And,

Maisie Minett: Available for all. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. And yeah, come and encourage us on TikTok.

Why not? 

Kaylie Edwards: You're much braver than I am. I, yeah, I deleted it again the other 

Kirsten Burke: day. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh, really? I only download it if somebody sends me a TikTok video and I can't watch it. 

Okay. 

So that's when I download it, and then I just get rid of it again. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. I get the email saying, "Blah blah has shared a blah blah blah," and I'm like, "I don't know what that means.

Goodbye." Delete. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah, my niece is very into TikTok. She's nine years old, and she does TikTok videos of her dancing, and I'm like, "What are you doing?" Yeah. "You're nine." 

Kirsten Burke: There is a lot of that. But I must say, having researched it a little and trying to understand it a bit more, it, TikTok itself wants to be a learning platform.

Yeah. And if you know that, now rather than ask Google, I will put in, "Can I take a [01:01:00] sapling from my rhododendron?" Yeah. And put it into TikTok, and I get much more interesting answers, and they show you. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: No. So if you see it as a learning platform, forget all the little- 

Kaylie Edwards: Virals 

Kirsten Burke: stuff

you know, all the dancing and lip-syncing, and see it for that. 

Maisie Minett: I suppose if you build your algorithm- 

Kirsten Burke: Yes ... 

Maisie Minett: around that- Yes ... then it could be a little 

Kirsten Burke: learning place for you. Yeah, 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. Yeah, it's kinda like Threads. Threads, I just keep getting creative stuff because that's what I put in when I first started, so that's all I see.

Yeah. So I see other creative businesses and- Yeah ... and artists and things. So I think that in itself is what you need to do. Otherwise, I would just delete it and then redo it. Yeah. 'Cause you were getting stuff you weren't wanting. 

Kirsten Burke: Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yeah. 

Kirsten Burke: No, that's really good. All these platforms are so clever now, aren't they?

You just even, like, when you speak about something, you notice it's coming up on your feed, so- Yes ... 

Kaylie Edwards: it's all a bit frightening. When I worked at a solicitors years and years ago, and it, we were talking about something in the office. I can't remember what it was, but then suddenly the next day, [01:02:00] we'd all said it was showing up on our phones, like-

related to this stuff we had discussed, and it 

Maisie Minett: was so weird. I was one talking about a toilet that would go in the corner of a room, and, I can't... not sure. But it had been added to my Amazon basket. 

Kaylie Edwards: Oh my gosh. 

Maisie Minett: Yeah. I'm not gonna say the word that I think did it, but yeah. And there was a, things you may like in my basket ready for me to check out.

Kaylie Edwards: Oh my goodness. I didn't see it actually. Actually, did I get 

Maisie Minett: it? I might have actually got it. Yeah, I think it worked.

Kaylie Edwards: It's close they try and personalize, don't they, the ads and stuff to what you're talking about a bit more than ... I'm just like, " don't do that to me," 'cause sometimes 

Maisie Minett: the conversations you're having- That's what I thought.

They're listening to 

Kaylie Edwards: my conversations. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit scary, this world at the moment, but yeah. But just flow with it and go with it. Exactly. Okay. 

Maisie Minett: Like that creative flexibility. Yeah. 

Kaylie Edwards: Yes. Yes. You have to be creative and flexible. Yes. So Kirsten and Maisie, thank you [01:03:00] both so much for sharing the real story behind the Modern Calligraphy Co.

From the beginning of the business to the teaching and Modern Calligraphy Club, and the live events that has also grown into it, and I've loved hearing both of your perspectives. And if you'd like to explore their work, find them ... You can find them on themoderncalligraphyco.com. And if this conversation has given you an idea for your own creative journey, do follow or share the Creative Juggle Joy podcast.

And thank you both. Thank 

Kirsten Burke: you. Thank you for having us. It's been really fun. Thank you. 

Kaylie Edwards: And until next time, keep creating, keep juggling, and keep finding joy in the process