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Higher Listenings
Is Metacognition the Ultimate Hack for Equitable Learning?
Have you ever talked with students about study skills? Did they lean in with unbridled enthusiasm? Or did your intuition suggest this might not be the right approach? Dr. Saundra McGuire, a leading expert on student learning, has some helpful advice.
Together we tackle the metacognitive equity gap—that unseen divide between students who have been taught how to think about their learning and those who haven’t—and why talking about metacognition—not just study tips—could be the shift we need to get students to engage in real learning.
Guest Bio
Dr. Saundra McGuire is an internationally-acclaimed speaker, Professor Emerita of Chemistry, and Director Emerita of the Center for Academic Success at Louisiana State University. She is the author of the best-selling books Teach Students How to Learn and Teach Yourself How to Learn. Her successful mentoring of underrepresented STEM students earned her the 2006 Presidential Award for Excellence in Science, Mathematics, and Engineering.
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Most students have never been asked what would you say is the difference between studying and learning? And typically they'll say things like ah, studying is just memorizing information for a test or a quiz, whereas learning is when you understand that information, you can apply it, you can relate it to what you already know. But nobody's ever gone over this, because we've always told them in school did you study for that test? See, the goal is to help students understand what is the difference between what I've done up to this point and what I need to do going forward to get a different result.
Speaker 3:Have you ever talked to students about study skills? Did they lean in with unbridled enthusiasm, or did your intuition suggest this might not be the right approach? Dr Sondra McGuire, author, educator and expert on student learning, has some helpful guidance for us. Together, we tackle the metacognitive equity gap, the unseen divide between students who have been taught how to think about their learning and those who haven't. And why talking about metacognition, not just study tips, could be the shift we need to get students to trade memorization for real learning. Welcome to Higher Listenings.
Speaker 2:Well, your passion is quite evident All the times that we've engaged. It's really clear. It's not surprising you have won awards for mentorship here. Metacognition is a particular area of specialty. Really, You're an expert, acknowledged expert, in the importance of that in particular. Was that driven by a particular encounter? Did that surface in your experience early in a way that you're like, ah, this is something I've got to really direct my attention to?
Speaker 1:I actually heard that word the first time when I was at Cornell. I was the associate director of the Learning Center and we had a fantastic learning strategist, helene Selko, and one day around the copy machine I heard her students. They were talking about metacognition. There was all this buzz. Didn't know what the term meant, did not think I needed to know what it meant.
Speaker 1:But then fast forward about 20 years later when I am the new director of the Learning Center at LSU and I am looking for a way to get students attention, because I know if we talk about study skills, most students' eyes glaze over. They don't want to hear about study skills. But I came across metacognition again remembering, oh yeah, I heard this term and those students were really excited about it. And so I started thinking that if I used metacognition as the construct to teach students exactly how they could be in control of their thinking, of their learning strategies, then that would give me an inroad to students. And it's actually that it's turned out that way that they typically don't know what it means, and so they're intrigued by the term and we deconstruct it in presentations. They see exactly what it is and it gives them a pathway to success that they had not seen before, and it's not just about study skills.
Speaker 3:It's like you're piquing their curiosity too, because they haven't heard it. It sounds a bit academic. They are at an institution after all, so it's sort of what they're expecting versus study skills. Sounds a little old hat. Been there, done that. Nothing new under the sun.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and the other thing that surprised me were students. Whenever we say the research says this about learning, it's like they sit up and take notice, and so I think it's a combination of having something they've never heard before. It's research-based and also it just makes sense.
Speaker 1:You know when they think about how they've learned other things. If you pretend you're teaching, then that deepens the learning. And I've had students say oh yeah, I remember in fourth grade when I used to teach my dolls everything I did really, really well and so I can help them connect to. These are strategies they have used before, not necessarily in an academic setting, but they will work as well in the academic setting as they worked in those other settings.
Speaker 3:It's funny because I have a cabbage patch kid that actually went on to get a PhD in English, so just thought I'd throw that out there. So, speaking of students and I know we're going to talk a lot about students today but how would you characterize the current generation in terms of having the tools to learn effectively, Like? Do you see differences or any areas of concern relative to previous generations? You've taught?
Speaker 1:Oh, very much so, and sometimes when I say that, people say we know every generation says that about the previous generation. But I do think that there is a difference now, and I think part of it was brought about with the accountability movement, where now they're the standardized tests that students have to take, that teachers feel pressured really to prepare the students for the test, and so I think the joy of learning and the goal of having students learn has been replaced by the goal of having them score well on these tests. So there's so much drill and kill. Nobody finds that fun. But there's a huge difference post-pandemic, because during the pandemic and I think rightly so there was really a relaxing of what students were required to do.
Speaker 1:I'll never forget I was doing a National Science Foundation site visit and one of the faculty members there, her daughter, had called her and she said that her daughter told her Mom we don't even know how to take a test without cheating because that's what they did, and so, yeah, so I think that these students have absolutely no confidence that they can master the material, which is why I think there's so much cheating. But again, these are skills that we can teach students, because to me it's all about a paradigm shift where they understand what learning is, because they don't have a clue. It's always been just memorizing and regurgitating information, showing them Bloom's taxonomy so that they see that memorizing is very different from understanding, which is different from applying, and the idea is to be able to get to the point where you can come up with your own theories, your own ideas you can create. But nobody's ever shown them this before and I get excited to see how excited they get to know that all of this is there but nobody ever shared it with them before.
Speaker 2:I want to go in so many directions here, so let me just draw out the equity issue. You pointed to the digital divide essentially, which is really one form inequity takes, but you have really been trying to champion and solve this metacognitive equity gap, so can you talk about that? What is the metacognitive equity gap?
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that's a term that I coined back in the summer of 2020, after George Floyd was murdered, and there was so much talk about equity around the country really around the world and so I started thinking about the difference between students who do well and who don't, because we talk about achievement gap all the time. That gap has really more to do with the difference in thinking skills that students have acquired up to that point that I said well, I'm going to call this metacognitive equity, because that's the real difference in this achievement gap. The students who've gone to better resource schools, who've had access to IB courses, AP courses, they've had access to mentors who can ask them the deep, probing questions that require them to do that kind of thinking. Their thinking strategies are very different than students who've only had to memorize information, regurgitate information, have never been given the freedom to create knowledge and information, and so, to me, that was where the gap was, and so I just called it a metacognitive equity gap and I do sessions on that and I talk about how to close that gap. I'll give you a quick example of that.
Speaker 1:So many students don't do well on, let's say, papers or projects, because they've never seen what an outstanding project looks like, and so rubrics will help with some of that. But I say showing students examples and not even telling them you know, this is a good project, this is a poor project. But give them the rubric and give them three maybe an outstanding one, a mediocre one and a poor one and ask them to use the rubric and evaluate and indicate which is which, because now students are going to see what goes into something that's outstanding. You know, as faculty, what's the first thing we want to see when we're about to write a proposal. We want to see some proposals that have gotten funded and then, once we see that, we kind of know the direction to go in. But so often we don't give students that information and we just assume that if they're not succeeding it's because they can't, as opposed to recognizing that nobody's ever shown them what an outstanding one is and how to get there and they can do it.
Speaker 2:And it helps maybe even not just to see something outstanding, but something that's mediocre or problematic in ways that from experience I know students are likely to deliver without that kind of guidance right. So it's not just excellence but also the contrast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I like to give them the spectrum so that they know what to shoot for, because if they never see the outstanding one, then they don't know what to shoot for. If they don't see the mediocre one or the very poor one, which is probably what they've been producing in the past, then they don't make that connection that this is where I've been, but this is where I can go.
Speaker 3:So you've you talk a fair bit about growth mindset, and I wonder if you could share a little bit about why that's important for the instructor in terms of their perception of students, and also how do they actually model that for students as well, so that they can try to overcome that negative self-talk that so many of us deal with?
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, let me first say that I am aware that in recent years there's been a lot of pushback about Carol Dweck's work and she's addressed some of it, so I don't want people to think that oh, she doesn't even know that Carol Dweck has been debunked. The basic tenet of what Dweck has found is that most people think that either you have a certain amount of intelligence that you're born with, it's not going to change very much, and she calls that a fixed mindset. And the other view is that you can grow your intelligence with your actions, you can make yourself smarter, and she calls that a growth mindset. And there's actually a research study that looked at the performance of students in the classroom of a professor with a growth mindset versus fixed mindset, and what they found was that all students did better in the classroom of a professor with a growth mindset and that achievement gap between the Native American, Latino and African American students that gap between them and white and Asian students it was essentially cut in half if they were in the classroom of a professor with a growth mindset, in the classroom of a professor with a growth mindset.
Speaker 1:And I think that they didn't talk about why that is, but I think it's because if you have a growth mindset and you know that everybody can improve, that's the message that you communicate to students and then students will try. I heard some research lately that said students really want to meet the expectations that we as faculty have of them and typically, if you have a fixed mindset, there are a group of students that you don't have high expectations for, and I think it's so important that faculty recognize the importance of a growth mindset because that's the way we're going to communicate that to students and inspire students to take the steps they need to take in order to reach the potential that they're able to reach.
Speaker 2:I think, particularly in this moment where students have, or are thought to have, so much apparent power, the faculty don't understand how much power they have and how much influence they have. In these very subtle ways, like a casual, you know, remark that a student receives as you know, you're not going to make it is hits deep right Because they are so vulnerable to the judgment of faculty in this moment where they're trying to, you know, to learn and grow and develop and pass, to get to whatever's next for them, and so I think the work that is done to help faculty appreciate this and alter their practice is so vital.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that, Brad, because the other thing that I'm seeing now is that faculty seem to be held hostage by student evaluations. I've seen so many faculty who say, well, I can't require that they really learn the stuff, because if I do that then I'm going to get negative evaluations. To me that's really sad, because I think we can hold these kids to high expectations, but we do have the discussion with them about why we have those high expectations, because they won't understand why we're requiring things and they will get angry and upset and mad if they think we're just doing this to them because we can, because we're in a position of power, as opposed to we're doing this because we know what's going to make them the best professionals that they can be.
Speaker 2:So in your work with faculty the growth mindset is one that you've mentioned that faculty sometimes come in thinking you either have it or you don't, and that needs some attention and correction. Are there some myths that you have found that you regularly encounter in your work with faculty that you might want to surface in this conversation, some other things that are contrary to what we know about how people learn, that you find widespread belief around that we might characterize as a myth.
Speaker 1:I think one thing that I widely held belief is that it's going to take too much time for me to teach students how to do this. But there was a biology professor who she now spends quite a bit of time on this, and I asked her. I said well, you know, how do you find time to do this? And she said well, I don't find time to do it. I make time to do it. And she said because I now realize that it is much more important for us not to just cover information but to uncover the learning strategies that students need, because three years from now, the information is going to be different, but their ability to process information and learn, that's what's going to benefit them later on.
Speaker 3:I spoke with an instructor of psychology who used to devote the first week of class to reviewing the research on effective study habits and then providing examples and guidance to students. So I would have thought like giving them the tools to be successful at the very beginning would be a good idea, at least in principle, but it didn't land. So she decided to introduce this after the first midterm, I think it was, which for a lot of first year students serves as a wake up call, as you said. So I know it did for me when I had my first midterm, so her students were a lot more responsive. So do you have any guidance on when or how to have these conversations about learning strategies with students?
Speaker 1:Absolutely See the problem with doing it at the beginning. When you talk about these study strategies, the students don't think that you're talking to them. You're talking to all the other dummies in the room who might need this information. They don't need this information. They came with their A's in their back pocket. What they've always done has always worked, and so they're not attuned to that at all. But it is after that first test where they get the wake-up call. I used to give my first tester quiz, you know, three or four weeks in when I thought I'd had enough stuff to cover to put on there. But now I realize it's got to be much earlier, because when students realize that they've not been doing it correctly, they're going to start over at the beginning of the course, because now they know they haven't learned that information and the smaller that gap is from the beginning of the semester to when they learn that they've got to do something different, then that makes all the difference in the world.
Speaker 2:You know there's an awful lot of advice out there and a lot of pressure on faculty to evolve their practice. It can be overwhelming. So is there just one or two strategies that you would recommend prioritizing for educators who really want to evolve their practice and help their students be more successful?
Speaker 1:My approach actually is very different than most faculty developers, and I say this all the time I never tell faculty you need to change your approach, and the reason I don't do that is because I know that most faculty developers and I say this all the time I never tell faculty you need to change your approach, and the reason I don't do that is because I know that most faculty are not interested in changing their approach. So my approach instead is how do I teach faculty what to teach students that students have to do in order to increase their learning? And that goes over much better with faculty, because I'm not blaming faculty, I'm not saying you know, it's your fault. And so if we can give students the strategies to improve their own learning, it doesn't matter whose class they're in or what the professor is doing, because now it's in the student's control. But now, having said that, I'm going to answer the question about what could faculty do to increase student learning If we give tests earlier and more often so that students are really forced to keep up, and it could even be pop quizzes, unannounced quizzes, where students know that any day that you come in, you might have a quiz. Now another learning strategy that I have found and so many students have said you know, this made the difference for me. I talk about teaching students how to pretend that they're teaching the information, because if you can teach the information, then you know that you've mastered it. I had one. This was an engineering professor at the University of North Dakota and when she learned about this strategy she said that she started having some of her students co-teach some of the lectures with her and she found that they put a lot of passion into this work. They brought in a lot more real world examples and she just saw how they were much more interested in mastering the information when they knew that they were going to co-teach with her. So that's one and this. These are strategies that were recommended by Tom Angelo and Pat Cross.
Speaker 1:Assessment. But doing this one minute paper what was the muddiest point? What did you not get? What would you want to see covered more so. So there are things that we can do, even the stopping every 15, 20 minutes to do a think-pair-share with students. Throw out a question that they have to discuss so that they become actively involved. Even ask the students you know what would make it easier for you to learn information in this class. It was Linda Nelson who said that what she found was that mid-semester evaluation assessment where she asked students what do you like most about what we're doing? What would you like to see changed? And students were so very honest and they were very surprised that she took their feedback and made changes based on what that feedback was. Feedback and make changes based on what that feedback was and I think that's another part of motivation. When students know that we really care about them as individuals, we care about their learning, they will do things that they would not do otherwise.
Speaker 3:What about you know, speaking of Linda Nelson questions that you pose to students to get them to think about and reflect on their own learning strategies? Are there any things that you like to ask to get them to think about and reflect on their own learning strategies? Are there any things that you like to ask students Maybe they've gotten the exam mark back and they're, you know, flummoxed, or whatever. Are the things that you like to ask them to get them to think about and reflect on their approach and things that they might actually change for the next?
Speaker 1:round? Absolutely yes, the reflection questions that I love to ask, and most students have never been asked these questions, but one is what would you say is the difference between studying and learning? And the thing that surprised me about reflection questions? Because initially I was so opposed to reflection questions when I first heard about them and I said I don't have time to throw out these questions, get Mamsy Pamsy answers back. I can tell these students what to do much more efficiently. But I went to a conference once and the presenter did this and I saw how everybody was engaged.
Speaker 1:And so you know what's the difference between studying and learning. And typically they'll say things like ah, studying is just memorizing information for a test or a quiz, whereas learning is when you understand that information, you can apply it, you can relate it to what you already know. One young lady said well, studying is short term, learning is long term. Studying is what I do to make an A on the test, but learning is what I do if I need to retain that information. And so then they see there's a difference. But nobody's ever gone over this, because we've always told them in school did you study for that test? Because, see, the goal is to help students understand what is the difference between what I've done up to this point and what I need to do going forward to get a different result. And unless we ask those questions to help them identify this gap, then they're not going to see it. So that's one.
Speaker 1:Then the other one is if you knew you had to make an A on the next test, or if you knew you had to teach the material on this next test to the class. And of course 90% of them say oh, if I had to teach the material, why would you work hard? If you had to teach the material? They'll say well, I really have to know it if I have to teach it. And faculty laugh at this. It's like, well, didn't they know they had to really know it. If they make an A on the test and the answer is no.
Speaker 1:And so then I ask them up to this point in time, would you say you've been more in scenario A mode, you've been preparing to make an A on the next test, or have you been in scenario B mode, you've been preparing to teach the information? And of course they've all been in scenario A mode. And then I say I love it, love it, love it. I love it when you're doing everything wrong, because that means when you start to change things, you're going to see a difference. If you told me you were already doing everything that I'm going to suggest, then you know where do we go from there. And the other thing I never want students to feel bad about anything they've done in the past because they didn't know that they were supposed to do anything different. And I sometimes say that the sessions that I do with students, I'd say maybe it's 50% information, 50% inspiration, motivation, because they have to see that I believe that they can excel. They've got to buy into that passion because that's what's going to fuel the actions that they're going to take.
Speaker 3:After we've talked about the strategies, it's sort of like tripping over the truth. I mean, people could tell me stuff all day long, but until I realize it for myself, that's when things really start to click.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and that's why I tell faculty all the time we have to connect students with their personal experience, and we can do that with reflection questions.
Speaker 2:I do get chills when you talk about this stuff.
Speaker 2:I mean it is opening up a reality that is completely unknown to them.
Speaker 2:I mean metacognition you know the way you get them, with these simple questions, to think about the act of learning in a way that is unknown to them is just, is revelatory, right? So the students, I mean, that's why there's so much impact here, because they are utterly transformed by the recognition that they have an ownership over their development through these mechanisms, through teaching their roommate what they're learning or their goldfish, or whatever mechanisms through, you know, teaching their roommate, you know what they're learning, or their goldfish or whatever, that they can actually start to think about different levels of learning with Bloom's taxonomy, right, it just opens up a world to them to really be much more intentional as a learner than they were equipped to be without this kind of information. So what I'm hearing, really, that faculty can do, as you know, simple steps is, you know, is move toward frequent low-stakes assessments, encourage students to teach the material before they come in for an exam and when they have the opportunity to ask them these kinds of questions, to get them to think in these ways.
Speaker 1:I'll add one more to that, and that is, from day one, communicate the message that I know that everyone in this class can excel and we're going to work together as a team to make that happen.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do my part, but I need you to do your part, because I know that everyone can excel. And when I was speaking at Henry Ford College a few weeks ago, there was a person who taught economics and so I also talk about that first week giving students an experience that really lets them know that they can excel in the course and so I asked him what he did, and so he said that he gives his first quiz very early and typically it's not trivial but it's not super difficult, so the average typically is about 80. And so then he demonstrates to students. He said see, you know, we can do this as a class. We got 80 on this. And he said he can just see students' confidence rising, and there's research that shows that the most important determinant of what someone will do is whether or not they think they can be successful if they do it.
Speaker 2:I knew we were going to need three hours for this conversation. I just find your work so important and so energizing, so it's been a real pleasure having a chance to talk with you again.
Speaker 1:I don't think anybody's ever told me that they got chills based on what I'm saying. So, yeah, and you're right, it is transformational for students and I just get a charge every time I see a student who's come in the office slumped over and they're sitting up, they're walking out. Let's do this.
Speaker 3:Love it. Love it. Brad and I both love it. Yeah, we do. Brad and I both love it. Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1:And I love you.
Speaker 3:We love you too, Dr McGuire. This has been so much fun and so insightful and I love just the note of optimism I think you bring to this conversation. It's a growth mindset, debunked or not, on full display.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, big fun.
Speaker 3:If you want to keep the learning going, I would encourage you to pick up a copy of Dr McGuire's Teach Students how to Learn Strategies you Can Incorporate into Any Course to Improve Student Metacognition, study Skills and Motivation. And for all the students out there who might be procrastinating by listening to this podcast, you should definitely check out. Teach Yourself how to Learn Strategies you can use to ace any course at any level. Thanks for joining us and we'll talk at you again soon. Higher listenings is brought to you by top hat, the leader and student engagement solutions for higher education. When it comes to curating captivating learning experiences, we could all use a helping hand.
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