Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Gundog Nation #017: Jay Lowry - Ryglen Gundogs, Cocker Spaniels, Breeding and Training Insights
In this conversation, Kenneth Witt interviews Jay Lowry, the owner of Ryglen Gundogs, who specializes in importing UK Cocker Spaniels. Jay shares his journey into the world of gundogs, discussing the appeal of Cocker Spaniels, the challenges of importing dogs, and the importance of training and socialization. He also touches on breeding practices, kennel management, and the impact of government regulations on dog imports. The conversation highlights Jay's experiences with Wildrose Kennels and his future plans for his training facility. In this engaging conversation, Kenneth Witt and Jay Lowry delve into the world of hunting dogs, particularly focusing on Cocker Spaniels. They discuss the unique traits of Cockers, the importance of genetics and breeding, and share insights on training and temperament. The conversation highlights the joy of dog ownership and the learning experiences that come with training different breeds. Jay emphasizes the significance of understanding a dog's drive and the need for fair training methods to foster a strong bond between the dog and owner.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt and I'm coming to you from Texas. I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is more than just a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who want to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we are set out to try to encourage youth, to get encouraged in the sport of gun dogs, whether it's hunting, competition, trials, hunt tests, all the above. This is a community of people that are united to preserve our heritage of gun dog ownership and also to be better gun dog owners. So if you'll stay tuned to all of our episodes, we're going to have people on here to educate you about training, about nutrition, health. Anything can make you a better gun dog owner. It's my pleasure to welcome our listeners and please join our community.
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Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt and welcome back to Gun Dog Nation. It's my privilege and honor today to have a guy that I've been chasing around for a long time. I've heard a lot for a long time. I've heard a lot of great things about him. I actually heard a couple of people say two different people who I respect their opinions tell me that Jay had the cleanest and nicest kennel that they'd ever seen. That speaks volumes. But I want to introduce Mr Jay Lowry, and Jay, tell everybody who you are and what you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my name is Jay Lowry. I own Raglan Gundogs, which we import UK Cocker Spaniels over here. We've been doing it since I think I imported my first Cocker in June of 2013. So we're going on our 12th year of doing that. We've had the honor and privilege to have some amazing dogs sold to us and get our hands on, so we've brought what I feel like is probably some of the best UK dogs available at least to the United States to get the genetics going over here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jay, define that. I mean I want you to elaborate on available, because I know just common sense and logic would tell you. You know these guys aren't wanting to turn loose their best dogs, right? Right, so I I'm sure it's hard and you have to be really selective in timing. Tell me about that, tell me what you do to to get the best dog available uh, I mean for for me it's not.
Speaker 2:It's more of the guys over there that, excuse me, that helped me. I mean being in the United States. If you're purely, if you're a guy sitting in the U? S just buying a dog from the UK without a connection, it's probably going to end badly for you Because once that dog comes across the ocean it's yours like it or not. You're not shipping it back over there. But I've been very, very fortunate and blessed to have one man in particular his name's Ian Openshaw who's helped me since I started. Get the dogs that I've got, and that's the key is to have the connection.
Speaker 2:I was actually introduced to Cockers in February of 13. A friend of mine named Mike Stewart who owns Wild Rose Kennels he and I were in the UK together. A friend of ours arranged for us to rabbit hunt with Cocker Spaniels one morning, which I tell the story all the time. I thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard in my life. I was not really looking forward to it because at that point a Cocker Spaniel was grandma's mean inbred dog that was going to bite you. But I saw I was with, we were with Ian. I saw him get dogs off his truck and I'm like, wow, that doesn't look like grandma's mean inbred dog and, honestly, after a morning of hunting rabbits it was I got to have one of these. So then he helped me get my first one, like I said, in June of 2013.
Speaker 1:OK now, how did you come to know Mike Stewart? I guess for all the listeners, mike Stewart is the owner of Wild Rose Kennel in.
Speaker 2:Mississippi. I bought my first lab from Mike in 2003 and he he does seminars a couple of times a year and if there was a seminar happening at Wild Rose, I was there. I was drinking in as much knowledge as I could get and through those times, those trips down there, he and I just became very, very close and, like I said, we ended up going to the UK together and I became what I also refer to as the prodigal son, because he and I were very close and I was doing labs, helping, you know, be a trainer from a remote area, and after I got the Cockers I kind of turned away from the labs and went and did my own thing.
Speaker 1:We're good friends still Mike and I are. It's just that I do Cockers and he still does labs. Now the question of the AR. Why tell the folks why a cocker over a lab?
Speaker 2:Um, for me, uh, it's just to. To watch a cocker work is, if you're a doggy person and you watch a cocker work and you don't have a smile on your face, you have no soul and you honestly should not own a dog. Labs are amazing, I mean. They are purebred, long retrieving athletes and they can do it all. But that cocker that's working, you know, 15, 20 yards from me, tearing through the cover, shredding it and then flushes that bird and everything in the world. It went from a thousand miles an hour to zero and they just stop and are waiting for the next command of what to happen. Uh, I just said I've got to have it. And at the time I mean really in 2013, yes, there were people in the U S that had cockers. They've had cockers here forever, but the popularity of that breed had not really caught on, so to speak, and we were fortunate to kind of get in early on that and you know it's been a good thing for us.
Speaker 2:When I bought my first dog in 13, this was not supposed to become what Raglan Gun Dogs is today. It was hey, I'm going to get a dog or two, it's going to be fun. And you know, looking down the road now 12 and a half years. You know we have three stud dogs. 12 mama dogs were booked at a year and a half on puppies. It's a blessing and it had nothing to do with Jay Lowry, I just had dumb luck and fell into it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, on what you said about the popularity, I like you and I, you know I fool with dogs. I'm I don't know how old you are I'm 56 and uh, and I fooled with dogs my whole life. I can't imagine a rabbit. You know one of the main hounds. I started with this beagles rabbit hunting back in eastern, which is where I'm from but, uh, you know, I'm like you. The the popularity even in 13,. I remember I probably 14 is when I really got heavy into labs. Wild Rose was my first lab.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I had a great dog from there and I've had Southern Oak dogs and I've imported some of my own stuff. But I'm not a breeder and don't want to be. But now, especially, for some reason, guys in the southeast that I talk to cockers are exploding there Georgia, south Carolina, north Carolina and it's so funny. I had a guy on here on one of my episodes, landon Poppin, who's a guy in North Carolina who took the first German wire hair to the grand, oh wow. But he also has a cock and he told me I hit right on this show. You know he's like if I'm in the worst mood in the world, just feel horrible, I'll pull that cock out and hunt. It changes my day Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that sounds like what you're saying Yep, and, and really I mean the guys we were just at Dallas Safari Club in Atlanta and a ton of guys you know that are guides or whatever. In the Southeast the pointers on the quail plantations are the ones doing a lot of the work. The cocker is the one that's going to get a tip at the end of the day. You know, if they have a cocker that can sit in somebody's lap and just be this sweet little dog and then you throw it on the ground, it becomes a ferocious beast, flushes the birds, picks it up, comes back and sits in your lap again. I mean that's that sells the breed in and of itself. And so often for us, a lot of times I'll get phone calls or emails hey, my wife, I want another hunting dog, but my wife said I can't have another lap, they're too big and they shed too much. Okay, well, I'm, I'm your answer.
Speaker 2:Because if there's nothing in the upland world in America that a cocker can't do, uh, we hunt. We hunt fezzes in North Dakota. I've hunted grouse and woodcock in Wisconsin. We go to Georgia every year and quail hunt. Um, if you're in the South where it's not super cold, lots of guys are picking wood ducks up with them, uh it, they can do a lot of things. Now a big canada goose? No, um, and I will say this, please no one misunderstand me if you're a hardcore duck hunter, you want a labrador period. End of conversation.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, now I have several clients. One gentleman that lives in oklahoma that owns a duck hunting lodge he has two of our dogs that's what he uses every day of the season is the cockers. I've got another friend that he's in Minnesota but he just hunted in Montana, hunted some freezing cold frozen rivers and his cocker was doing the job for him. So they can do it. But again, in the waterfowl world, a Labrador is just the way to go Upland. I think I can compete with anybody in the Upland world with my dogs.
Speaker 2:As far as the breed of dog. I don't mean competing, but they can do it.
Speaker 1:Now you said also, you use them for pheasant. Yes sir, they're fine, even though a pheasant's a pretty good-sized bird?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. Yes, sir, they're fine, Even though a pheasant's a pretty good-sized bird. Oh yeah, definitely, good, definitely. And we've even yeah, I mean, we've got one female that probably weighs 22 pounds and she'll drag him back to you every time. What's the average weight on a male Male? I would say our biggest male that we own right now weighs 32 pounds. Okay, so I do have some anomalies out there. I know like puppies that have that people have that are five, 35, 36. Uh, but our average average stud dog of the four that we've got probably is 30 pounds, 29 or 30 pounds.
Speaker 1:And then on the female side, we're about 25, or yes, sir.
Speaker 2:Yep, and we have them. You know like some get bigger. Like I said, we've got one that weighs about 22 right now.
Speaker 1:So yeah, just nice little dogs. You know what it might just be me, even with labs, I prefer a smaller dog.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get in a fight with something bigger than me. Yeah, and I joke, but I'm very serious. If things go wrong in the field, I can pick my cocker up and I can walk a really long ways with that thing in my arms. When I was fooling with labs and you know, even a 60-pound male, which is a relatively small Labrador, could I do it? I could, but I'm going to have to stop and take a break every now and then. Where a cocker, you can throw them in your game bag just about and walk out. That is handy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and I assume that's a lot easier on your grocery bill for your dogs.
Speaker 2:It is, it is. They're going to eat less and do the same job, so yeah, Now Jay, I just liked your advice, or your experience.
Speaker 1:What's your food of choice and what's your food of choice? What do?
Speaker 2:you feed your dogs.
Speaker 1:ProPlan, the only thing.
Speaker 2:I'll feed. I've played. How do I say this politically correct? I was ProPlan forever. I was swayed away to another large dog food company promised me the world. I was on that food for nine months. Nine months I fought diarrhea and sick dogs.
Speaker 2:I switched back to ProPlan and it immediately went away. And in that nine months I mean I was sending I mean just pure dog talk here. I was sending poop to universities Like what is wrong with my kennel, why are my dogs all sick? Nobody could find anything wrong with. The minute I went back to pro plan it went away. So I I don't have I don't have any tattoos in my life, but if I had one I would probably say purine or pro plan.
Speaker 1:That speaks a lot, you know, and I've I've been bad to experiment around, so I said a one dog food for years and years and then switched, and I'm kind of in that process right now, trying to land with the best one, and it's a challenge, and so I may go back and try that, yeah, pro plan is the way to go We've had great luck with it. How many litters do y'all, on average have a year?
Speaker 2:Right at 12, probably, I think. Right now we've got 12 females and each one has a litter every year. The reason I'm kind of you know how many females do we have? Most of our moms, most of our mom-and-dos do not live with me. I own them, but they live elsewhere with clients of mine, just it's kind of a nanny program, kind of a hundred percent yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I have not done it for a long time. Um it, I'm not a really smart person, so it takes me a while to catch on to things. Uh, but I started doing that probably two years ago. Um, the best decision I ever made. I mean it's easier on us, it saves us money. Um, and then my clients are getting a fully trained dog for free, essentially. Uh, they just come back to us once a year. They stay with us four months, have babies and then go back out again.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, yep, that's a good, that's a great program. Yeah, yeah, um, you know I had a only time. I don't. I'm not a, like I said, not a breeder, but I don't have ever, if I've ever, bred one of my labs. I did the deal with the wild rose. You know has a deal that you take your dog back that's passed all the health tests and they'll wilt the puppies and sell the puppies and do a split with you. Okay, they didn't do that when I was there I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah, and that was been. It's been a while since I did that. I don't really still do that, but I did that one time and anyway, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So you know, jay, what got me chasing you, following you, is, you know, your social media is, to me, is the best, one of the best I've ever seen, and you have the most beautiful cockers I've seen on and I I'm a dog nerd, so I'm always looking at that stuff. And, man, do you just, and everybody I show your stuff to. I showed it to somebody today. I said, yeah, I'm going to do a podcast with this guy and it was a person that's not a hunter. And they saw your dogs and went nuts. I'm like, yeah, he's got some nice stuff. And I assume, jay, I don't want to speak for you, but you're not going for color or anything. You're looking for hunt drive and the color is just a bonus, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's got the whole package. I want the whole package, Everybody does I?
Speaker 2:want a dog that hunts hard but is not a spaz in the kennel kind of people is intelligent. So, yeah, I mean, color is secondary to me. I mean, some of my clients are specific about what they want as far as colors go, which is fine, I don't care. But the last thing I'll do is I'm not going to start breeding red English Cockers. I mean, if I get some which I will, I know I will because I've got red dogs that's great, but it's not going to be. You know, this is a place to go get red dogs or liver dogs or whatever the case may be. It's whatever comes out is what we got.
Speaker 1:I believe the same way. I love those colors, but I would never breed to them, you know. Especially keep breeding reds to reds, not just me, I have a belief.
Speaker 2:And another question people ask me a lot is you know, in the Labrador world colors mean a lot in my opinion. I mean I will have stones thrown at me, but there's only one color of Labrador and that's black.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and I have two yellow labs, but they have black parents. Yeah, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2:I'm a purist Right In the Cochlear world. I really, truly, with all my heart, do not think color matters. You know, especially if you say a lot of people. If you say chocolate lab, they're like yeah, that's a joke. People are concerned about buying a chocolate or a liver colored cocker from us.
Speaker 1:for that reason I'm like I swear to you it does not matter in the cocker world. Swear to you it does not matter in the cocker world and I don't know all the DNA, genetics and stuff on cockers, but that's a common color in the Springer there's liver and there's chocolate. So I'm assuming, and I don't know if there are any fault colors in a cocker. Are there a color that you really don't want?
Speaker 2:Not me personally.
Speaker 1:No, um, not at all okay, so and uh, just while I'm thinking about it. So, jay, tell the listeners if they want to find your site, if they want to put a deposit on a pub, how do they find you?
Speaker 2:um, our website is raglan gundogscom. Our email address is info at raglan gundogscom and it's R Y G L E N and then gundogs. It's backwards on my shirt right here actually. Uh yeah, Social media we're raglan gundogs Instagram, Facebook. Um, we are very, very, very blessed. Our Facebook is good. It's great. There are all the pictures are both on both. But our instagram is huge, probably the biggest in the gundog world, I would guess you're.
Speaker 1:You have to have a professional photographer, do you? Oh, absolutely I mean your pictures are are spot. I mean you and probably southern oak kennels and and Wild Rose have some of the nicest pictures on the social media of hunting dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, aaron Davis is my photographer. Just about any trip I go on, aaron is with me. Because of what you just said, I mean pictures. You've got to have good pictures. You start posting crappy pictures, then you lose your quality real fast. So aaron does it all um I figured you're all.
Speaker 1:Stuff is just too good the quality and yeah yeah, he's, he's a tough guy.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna get into the topic here, jay, you and I first time we had a phone conversation, we alluded, we touched on this. But I really want to dig down deep and get your thoughts. So I'll preface it this way you know like, for example, I just came back from England to the IGL the retriever. You know competition and you know, over in other countries outside of the United States, you know that's those, those hunt tests.
Speaker 1:Hunt trials have to be kind of low key, Right, and I assume no one directly told me that, but I assume it's for protesters and stuff. And then you know that, coupled with the fact that we just got some CDC rules that were implemented August 1st of 2024, that now pups have to be six months old before they can be imported from a non correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jay a non-ravy country, and if it's a country that has reported rabies cases, it's a year to import. I'm not sure about that. Okay, I'm not sure about that at all. So again, it's the government, you know, interfering. This is the US government this time, yes, Interfering with our, you know, importation of hunting dogs, or even pet.
Speaker 2:They're not just hunting dogs, but any kind of dog, right? What do you see? As far as you know how things Overseas, I have no clue about any of it. I mean, that's, that's their world. I just get to dabble in a little bit. The thing that's frustrating to me is and this is just me, politically, personally, whatever when the government starts dabbling and stuff like that, I mean they kind of got their foot in the door and I don't like that. You know, if there's a problem with a specific country that we're getting dogs from, that's causing an issue, okay, fine, stop it in that country. And I think there probably are specific countries.
Speaker 2:The UK is a rabies-free country. For the love of everything, right and holy. Why are we stopping dogs from coming in, puppies from coming in? And if you want the puppy to be 12 weeks, that's fine. It was 10 weeks before, right? What's the magic number about six months? I mean? Um, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2:The very first time I went to england which I don't remember what year it was, um I brought some dog. I there were dogs that were bought by wild rose that I escorted back in the United States. When I get it to the United States. I'm going through customs with these dogs and the agents like I need to have a rabies certificate on these dogs. I'm like no, sir, you do not this. They're from England. It's a rabies free country. It doesn't exist there. And I had a little bit of a argument with somebody who should know better. That it's you have to educate yourself on. You know they really don't have it in the country. Therefore I don't have to produce a certificate. Going back the other way, it's a big pain in the butt. I've done that too. I've sent dogs back over and it's awful going back because of rabies here. But back to what you're talking about. Yeah, I don't like the government because what's to say next year? It's not okay. Now all dogs have to be two years old before they can come to the United States, or hey, we don't want dogs from outside the United States coming in here. I just don't like. I like the federal government for protection and that sort of stuff, but don't, just don't dabble in stuff that you don't know about. And there's again if and I'm just making this country up if Germany I don't think it's Germany has a problem with dogs that are biting people or have rabies or have diseases or coming in, punish that country. Don't punish the UK, which has had a long history with us of producing some of the best gun dogs that we have in our country, and not that we can't get them still.
Speaker 2:But there's benefits at times to having a puppy brought over versus an adult dog. It's obviously less expensive for folks I've always bought. I personally have never brought a puppy over, so it didn't really. I'm on this rant not because it affected me, because it doesn't at all. I've always bought adult dogs when I bring them in. But I just think you're, I just don't think it's right personally, but nobody asked me and I'm hoping maybe with the new administration that all may change. Who knows? And and am I right, and you probably know more about it than me Is it kind of a trial period, this six-month thing, or is it law for good?
Speaker 1:You know, I do not know the answer.
Speaker 2:I don't either, maybe I should research that a little bit, maybe. But I know I mean there's several guys over here that I know and I know guys on the other side that send a lot of younger dogs puppies, if you will here. I mean there were a lot of dogs moving across the ocean like January I'm sorry, july 29th. I got two in July.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a pup from.
Speaker 2:Ireland and a pup from England. Yeah, Again, from what the guy from Illinois can tell, just by the little bit. I know it just doesn't make any sense, but maybe someone could explain it to me. But it just seems like the government's overstepping a little bit in my opinion.
Speaker 1:No, so, jay, on another note there, do you guys have a training facility there too? Yes, yes, I do yeah.
Speaker 2:I've got a group of dogs. I mean this is kind of new news, if you will. I have a group of dogs that I'm training right now. This is going to be my last group that I train, at least for a while. My real job is, if those of you who don't know, I'm really a dentist. It's my real job. I just do this on the side.
Speaker 2:I've got kids that are growing up that I think it would probably be good if those kids knew who I was. Uh, as opposed to me knowing the dog's names, I should know my kids' names. Uh, so I'm going to take a little hiatus, uh, from training, just to be able to have more family time and enjoy it. I mean, we're still going to be raising puppies and stuff, which is plenty to do, um, but as far as training outside dogs, I'm going to take a break from that. But, yeah, I have. I personally own 55 acres that has a couple of ponds on it, and then I have access to 40 acre, a 40 acre CRP field that we keep birds in. So that's where my bird field's at. So, yeah, we have a great training facility here, do?
Speaker 1:you have any associate trainers or apprentice trainers?
Speaker 2:No, sir, I do it all I have. There's a lady, her name is Buffy Chandler, that manages my kennel. Um, so when I'm at the office working, she takes care of everything for me. Um, without her, without Buffy, I could not do what I do at all. Um, she, she does so much for me and it's and it's really a lot. What we do is a lot for two people to do. A lot of people would have more than that, but I don't mind to work hard, and neither does she. So the fewer people that are in that kennel, the happier both of us are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a lot to take care of, especially one of them being a dentist. Yeah, question. So on that CRP field, does that field hold. I assume you're taking pin raised birds. Yes, sir, it doesn't hold them very long.
Speaker 2:I have three pigeon houses that I have homers in and one big quail house that I keep quail in. We also have a pheasant farm not far from us that if I want pheasants, I'll go buy pheasants and put them out that day and and train with them that day. A majority of my training is with pigeons and quail just more economical. Yes, pigeons I can reuse pigeons 20 000 times and they just keep coming back. Quail, you know, I'll shoot some of them, but some of them I let fly, but they're going to recall back to the house so I get to use that same bird again and again too. Oh, really A pheasant. Once you put him out you may never see him again. So the birds I use just are much more economical to use.
Speaker 1:Now in your program. How long has it taken you all to have a finished dog?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say a finished dog, I would say a fully trained dog Ready to hunt. I have six to eight months, okay, and I would say most trainers could do it faster than me. But I just get to train three, maybe four days a week because of my other job, so it takes me a little bit longer to get things done, but that's why I only keep like like right now I've got three client dogs that I'm training. I don't keep very many dogs to train, just because it's way more important to me that I produce something that's really good than that.
Speaker 2:I produce a bunch of them and it's, and I'm not. I'm not a field trialer, I don't do hunt tests and I have nothing against those guys. They're great dogs, they're amazing trainers. I don't have time and I just want a dog that I can take and hunt. That's all I care about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those tests and trials. You're traveling and it's extremely time-consuming.
Speaker 2:Yes sir, yes sir. Now the training that you do, do you, you, I guess?
Speaker 1:my question would be this obviously you sell pups and do you have a package that, hey, if you buy this pup, we will train it for you ready to hunt not necessarily finished, right, right, and and that's what you do, I guess. Or, and do you also have dogs that weren't sold as pups, that you've kept back to train and sell as ready-to-go hunting dogs?
Speaker 2:So all of. I typically don't keep a puppy for myself that I'm not planning on keeping long-term for myself.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess you've got a wait list too. I never thought about that.
Speaker 2:I typically don't have started dogs, if you will available, but I do like if somebody's going to back. When I was training like the guys that wanted me to train their puppies that I have now they told me way ahead of time hey, I want you to train the dog. So they'll go home with the client for six till they're six or eight months old and then they come back to me to train. I used to do it to where hey, you come, you pick your puppy out, you meet your puppy and it's just going to stay with me until I'm done. I found with cockers in my hands it's going to work a lot better if they go home and they grow up a little bit and mature and get socialized to everything that's going to be in their world and then come back to me for training.
Speaker 1:Jay, do those cockers as general rule? Do they bond with one owner or they just work for any owner, or is it different?
Speaker 2:It's different, I would say. I mean, most of the dogs are going to like if, if it's, if it's me and Buffy, for example, if we're around the kennel, if we're both there, there's a lot of those dogs. A lot of the dogs just want to be with me. If I'm not there, she's the greatest thing since sliced bread. So they're willing to do but but they know that I'm the one that's going to take them to the field and hunt. She's going to be the one that loves them. So it uh yeah, I mean in. In most of the time it's going to be like every now and then you'll have a husband and wife both that hunt. But typically not to be sexist, this is just the realities of life typically the husband's hunting and the wife is not. But that dog may be the wife's dog at the house, but as soon as he grabs his vest and his gun, she's chopped liver and dogs out the door with him. It's kind of what I found.
Speaker 1:Generally, that's kind of what you see.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you send these pups home that are to come back to you for training, do you send a list of rules or list of guidelines for the okay, no, I just want my.
Speaker 2:My only thing I ever ask is when you bring that dog back to me. I want it to come to me when I call it and I want it to pick up a tennis ball. If it will do those things, I can usually I mean not always, but I usually can take it to where I want it to go. But yeah, I mean it's, and most of the times people will do things with them. They'll work on place a little bit and they'll work on heel a little bit. But because I'm and I, this is just who I am, no matter what they tell me the dog's doing, I'm going to do it all myself again anyway. So if it's doing something that's fantastic, that's a bonus. I myself again anyway. Yeah, so if it's doing something that's fantastic, that's a bonus. I don't know if I don't have to spend as much time, but as a general rule I don't care. If it's a wild Indian, that's fine, I can. I can bring it back in where I want it to be, okay, that's that's good enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um I was doing Labradors.
Speaker 2:When I did, when I trained Labradors for Wild Rose, I mean it was eight weeks old, we were going to work and I was real strict about everything. A Labrador, I felt like I feel like a Labrador can do that. Or a Cocker A Cocker can too. But you just have to be super delicate with them in the beginning. They really they need to know it's okay to go. You know, I don't want one that's stuck by my foot all the time because, yes, in the field I want one that will be stuck by my foot, but when I click my fingers you got to turn on the engines and you got to run and go do your job and not be concerned about leaving me. I just feel like, again, my opinion with a cocker grow up a little bit. Come back to me. A Labrador, I think you can. A Labrador, I felt like I could start a lot earlier on and get yeah they seem to love to train, would train seven days a week if you tried.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 1:what you.
Speaker 2:Yep, so you actually trained some with wild rose? Oh, I trained. Yeah, that's what I did for mike. For almost 10 years I was an associate trainer for mike wow, now did you take dogs up to illinois, or? Yes, sir, so I would go down. I got puppies, bring them back home, and usually they were for a client, a specific client. I'd train them and then deliver them back to wild rose when I was done oh wow, yep.
Speaker 1:How long do you generally keep those labs?
Speaker 2:Same thing, and sometimes it would be longer with the labs. Just because I was, I was keeping them, because I was bringing them home as babies. You know, I may have them nine or 10 months total, because there'd be nine or 10 months old when I'd send them home with kind of a basic foundation of of training.
Speaker 2:Well, I did not know, you did that, that's interesting Yep, that's where I, that's where I learned to train is is through Wildrose and I still, I would say, 75% of what I do is exactly how I learned there. There's some different things that I've learned along the way that work better for the Cockers, that I do different now.
Speaker 1:So have you ever been trained by or attended any seminars from people in the UK? I've not.
Speaker 2:No, I mean I've I've asked lots of questions of guys over there but never been to a formal seminar over there.
Speaker 1:Have you attended any events over there? Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been to um, I've been to a couple Labrador trials over there back in the day, and then I own a dog that she once I bought her, she qualified for the Cocker championship and when she was running in the championship I went over and watched her run. That was in 20. I was there in January of 2020 watching her run. So right before the world shut down, I was over watching my dog run, which was pretty amazing. She actually placed second in the championship. So, to be the American which I stuck out like a you know we stick out like a sore thumb. I mean we can try to blend in, but it's like, hey, you're from America. To get to be there in my dog place was a pretty special deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I knew when I wasn't wearing tweed and wool hunting clothes.
Speaker 2:If you have a regular baseball hat on you, don't I?
Speaker 1:actually wore this.
Speaker 1:It didn't help, and then I'd open my mouth and that was the end of that. You know, jay, when I was over there it was really neat because I, you know, I'm really interested in cockers and I really follow your stuff and you know more about the trials than I do. I've only been to one. It was a three-day, you know event but they would have like a covered truck, like a canvas truck, and the beaters I guess they call them. The beaters would go out and they'd have cockers and springers and they'd go out and flush the pheasants and whatever else comes out there and then they shoot them for the retrievers in the trial.
Speaker 2:So that was neat. I've got some neat pictures.
Speaker 1:But yeah, those guys go in and work, flush those birds out. You've already seen this, but I've never seen that many wild game birds in my entire life. It's insane. Pheasants would come out and just look like sandhill crane. It was just amazing. But no, it's really neat. I'm really interested in the cockers and I want to hunt with some. I haven't got to yet.
Speaker 1:But, I've got friends that have them. Now I'll tell you who's somebody. One of your customers that I've had on here that I like is Shane Cambridge. Yeah, he's got one of your dogs. It's funny, jay. Everybody that I've had on here or that I've talked to hunting that's hunted with or worked with a cocker. They light up when they talk about them and they're crazy over them. Rhodey Best probably one of the most famous retriever trainers in Texas.
Speaker 1:SRS guy he's the man he's got one and loves it, and there's a lot of retriever guys. They've got the retrievers, but they've got a Cochran load too. So it's neat I'm getting ready to have one. I got one. I was looking at yours and you turned me on to a buddy that had some of your stuff, but a friend of mine because of family circumstance up in Wisconsin, I ended up getting one that she had and she's a really, really good trainer, a friend of mine. We've known each other way back and so I ended up getting one of hers and it was about six months old and she had it with Jaylee Swartz.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just left it with Jaylee Swartz. Oh yeah, and I just left it with Jaylee. Yeah, you know, cause I saw that she, you know, she seemed like she knew what she's doing and I've been impressed so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but so.
Speaker 1:I'll have one this fall to hunt with Good.
Speaker 2:Good yeah, jaylee's great, she's amazing.
Speaker 1:I mean, she won cocker championship here, and probably three years ago, I think, with a dog named ike um. She's a great trainer and and this lab, this lab, this cocker is it wasn't one of jaylee's dogs but I saw the pedigree and it was all british, like everything on it was you know it looked like a lab pedigree in england, right, you know fc whatever.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so, but I still man, I want to come up to your kennel. I told you I think I told you this a year ago I was up there a whole lot. You were working, weren't you? I was up there in Nashville, illinois, at a campground, and cannot believe. A lot of my people that I deal with were in Centralia. You're in Centralia, right?
Speaker 2:I'm in Brownstown, which is about 30 minutes north of Centralia.
Speaker 1:Okay, so where is that in relation to Nashville, mount Vernon?
Speaker 2:So we are an hour straight north of Mount Vernon. Okay, I was in Mount.
Speaker 1:Vernon, and then I worked. I went up north probably an hour. Then I had another deal up in Decatur area too, so I was all around you. That killed me, because I would have loved to have seen it. Honestly, I'm always trying to improve as a trainer myself. I'm not a professional trainer, lord, I wouldn't feel confident to train somebody else's dogs. But I'd love to come up here and pick your brain and watch you in action. Oh for sure That'd be great.
Speaker 2:That would be great.
Speaker 1:But now do you you know, I know you've got your females, you've got your stud dogs. Do you try to refresh your genetics periodically? How often do you do that? Do you still import very?
Speaker 2:often. Yeah, we haven't imported anything for a year, um, and I actually have a couple puppies females that I've kept back from our breedings, that I really like the cross to put into our program, and I have a fingers crossed a stud dog from some of my breeding. That's going to start in the next couple of months probably, and it's, it's, it's we. We've got really great things in it and I will always import dogs, but at the same time, if I have good stuff here myself, I want to make sure I'm taking advantage of that too.
Speaker 1:So much easier, isn't it? And plus, you're seeing the dog, you know everything about it, you know what's history. Even though you obviously have trusted folks in the UK that you can import from Right Right, it's still nothing better than looking at it yourself.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so, yeah, so I mean it's, it's. We're kind of a mix. For the first 10 years it I had nothing that we had raised ourselves. It was all import stuff, um. But you know, like you just built what to what you just said, to keep fresh in, I'll always have to have import stuff, probably, um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean it's, it's, uh, it's a little, you know, you start looking at pedigrees and, okay, I'm going to try this to this and Ooh, that was amazing. Or Ooh, that was bad. Um, it's a little bit of trial and error. But again, because of the guys in the UK, a lot of times they can look at my stuff which they've, you know, they've been breeding these for decades and can say, okay, this is what you want to do. And when they say this is what you want to do, I don't question it. I mean, why would you? I'm not. I'm a dentist, you know that's my real job. These guys are professional dog men that have done it for 30 or 40 years. I'm going to trust their wisdom. I'm not going to try to reinvent the wheel at all.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm lucky.
Speaker 2:I'm never. You know. If you know me long, you'll know that I never portrayed to be a know-it-all Right and I'm always learning, liked it at the time, you know we know what it's like to be told what to do.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you humble yourself just a little bit and take some advice, some of the best training advice I've gotten in 15 years or more came from a conversation like that. Somebody said one time you know, I can make your dog steadier and I'm like shut up, just shut up. You can't Well come to find out. He and I had a conversation a few months later and the best training advice I've gotten in years and years and years. You don't always like to hear it, but sometimes the best thing to do is let somebody else look at your stuff and look at how you're doing things and they can say there's a better way to do it than what you're doing it. So, at how you're doing things, and they can say there's a better way to do it than what you're doing it um so you know that's exactly, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I always want to learn. Yeah, and you know, jay, I learned that I have to go to some retriever clubs when I get time here in texas, and you know there's guys there that I know I fool dogs longer, but they teach me stuff all the time. Yeah, and show me something I've done wrong yeah, so I'm always, and you know yeah, I just I try to keep that mentality and you know if you, if you're not a humble person and you want to be a more humble person, train dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'll hum you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're two alike, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Did you have you ever fooled with, dealt with or hunted with springers? I've not, nope, I'm just curious and I haven't either. I saw a lot of them when I was in London and you know. But yeah, do you know any differences in the two other than they're bigger? Is it different drive, different temperament? Are they similar to Cockers?
Speaker 2:I can't, because I've never messed with them at all. I really can't speak to that. Yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes and this is just people talking sometimes Cockers are a little bit more temperamental talking. Sometimes cockers are a little bit more temperamental. You know where I think a Springer may be a little bit more accommodating to you. I do know and this is just a fact and I would argue with anybody that disagreed with me on this a cocker will kill themselves for you if you're on the same team. If they deem something you've done is unfair or quote, unquote not right, they will also punish you. Like. I had a female one time that we were in North Dakota hunting and I got onto her about something which probably wasn't her fault and I swear to you, ken, she got behind me and walked and was like screw you, go do it yourself now I hope you like it. And I'm like gosh, dang it. And it's like now I'm going back and trying to make up with this dog so she'll go back to work for me.
Speaker 2:It's like a marriage, isn't it A hundred percent? It is. Yeah, you're exactly right, it really is. I used to do divorce law.
Speaker 1:I know what gets you there. Yeah, that's funny. No, that's crazy. You know, hopefully I'm going to learn a lot from having a cocker and even though I love to train myself, the dog was already in Wisconsin. Jelly has birds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I have a ranch here in Texas. I live in the middle of my ranches, three hours southeast. Okay, I still don't have a lot of water. I'm near this. I go to san santo river and run them. I've got a small pond on the branch but it's not natural, you know. I mean I have to fill with the water, well, so right, yeah, it's just really not conducive for waterfowl training in west texas. You know, east texas is the retriever capital of the world for training, competitions, right, but no, that's interesting. So you've got me. I'm glad you told me that, because retriever capital of the world for training and clubs and competitions Right, but no, that's interesting. So you've got me. I'm glad you told me that because you know little tidbits, like you just said about a conker. Oh, yeah, because I tell you what I've learned.
Speaker 1:And I had trouble with Brittany's female Brittany. I got actually out of the Smith family years ago from the other Smith, not Ronnie, but Rick. I've done protection dogs, I still do protection dogs, I still do bite work with Dobermans and I'm hoping to take two dogs to the PSA here in a year. But uh, you know, when you've been working with Malinois, dobermans, rottweilers and I've had them all and you can be harsh In my voice not physically touching Right, but I can be harsh and holler and scream and I have a pretty loud voice. Yeah, you do that to a female, brittany. I'm not saying all of them, just the one I had, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's game over they're done, or back. When I rabbit hunted I had a female beagle scolded her verbally yeah she was, she checked out yeah, so I'm glad you told me that, because you know labs are. They're so forgiving, like oh my gosh, I could holler and scream one of my labs about something there's like you know they don't care, it ain't no big, it washes right off their back. Yeah, definitely. So you're saying that the cocker's a a little bit more temperamental, like you said?
Speaker 2:There's some that are hardheaded like a lab, but as a general statement, I mean, if they will just, if you'll be fair to them, they will kill themselves for you. If you're unfair, you may get away with it once. You do it twice. Okay, now it's makeup time, because it's if you'll just, and also, I think, if with a cocker, if you'll just let them, they want to do it. You just have to show them how to do it. They just want to please, they just want to make you happy so much. They're the most pleasing dog I've ever worked with and, at the same time, I've never been around a smarter dog that will look at you, look at the situation, understand it and be like okay, you're in control, I'm okay with that or no, you're not in control and I'll take I'll take this mother over myself Very intelligent, very intelligent dogs.
Speaker 1:So do you, and you've got way more experienced trained retrievers than I do. Would you say that as a general rule, that you think that there are more intelligent dogs? Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Wow, in my opinion. I mean there's just something about. I mean they literally just stare at you. I mean there's like they're looking into your soul and, yeah, they'll figure you out real fast. They will read you like a book.
Speaker 1:You know, now you kind of spook me because I have full of border collies and I have, yeah, and I learned that they all outsmart the trainer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot and it you know. Once you figure that out, it's humbling. That's humbling when your dog's out smarter than me.
Speaker 2:But so that's what this sounds like to me, it's a cocker, similar to how a border collie does Right, and I think a cocker too is. You know, again with a lab in the laboratory world. In my opinion it's a lot of control. I decide when you move, where you move, how you move, da-da-da-da. In the pointing dog world it's fire and forget. You know. You let that dog out of the dog box and they'll let you know when they find a cubby of birds.
Speaker 2:A cocker's a little bit of a mix of that, in that I have to be able to control you but you also have to have the free will to move and hunt. So it's not a. I'm not controlling every motion of the dog, I'm letting the dog have a little free will, if you will. Now you're going to stay where I tell you to stay at. I don't mean that, but I think it's a little.
Speaker 2:It's a mix of messing with pointing dogs and Labradors, in my opinion, a Cocker. That's why, again, I want a Cocker to grow up a little bit, six or eight months before I see you to touch you. That's kind of a bird dog thing. You know they're going to run until they're 10 or 12 months old, wild and crazy Probably. Yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, I've trained labs, I've trained pointers, I've trained shorthairs and britneys, and with every breed you just learn a little bit different stuff. And I'm not saying that I'm great at any of them, but I've fooled with enough of them to kind of know, as a general statement, how they work yeah, you know, right now I'm training two Dobermans and it's.
Speaker 1:I've owned them before, but I never trained one start to finish, and they're so immature it's, and they're goofy and clumsy, and my male, who's now 14 weeks older it looks like you know, this grown dog is a pup. I mean, he acts like an eight week, but it's just a Doberman thing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:In the working line world. I don't know anything about show Dobermans might be completely different, but you know Malinois are total opposite. They're like bred learn mature. Of course they're good, they're amped up 24, seven Right, but they're still mature. If that makes sense, yeah, oh, absolutely. But so do you feel like. You know, like most labs, you get a well-bred lab. You know, you and our british guys, you know dog guys hunt drive is usually nine times ninety percent of the dogs.
Speaker 1:They're gonna have it. It's not anything you, it's just in them, right it seems like, from what I hear, I don't have any experience. It seems like that cockers are just. They come out of the box, the hunt drives their play, play. Yep, yeah, I would say that's true. I mean, you don't have any experience it seems like that cockers are just.
Speaker 2:They come out of the box, the hunt drives their plug and play. Yep, yeah, I would say that's true. I mean, you don't have to build drive.
Speaker 1:You're just channeling drive. You're just correct, correct and that's the thing.
Speaker 2:That's again. That's why I'm wanting them. I want, I can, I can pull it back. I can't push it forward. If it's not there, I can't put it there. If it's there, I can, I can. I can control forward. If it's not there, I can't put it there. If it's there, I can, I can. I can control the monster if it's there. If it's not there, I can't push it out Again. That's why I want it six or eight months old, to grow up. If you're wild and crazy, I can put a leash on you and I can get you under control. That's not going to be a problem. It's the dogs in my hands, the cockers, that I kept as babies and tried to control them at eight weeks old and on, like I did a Labrador. They just didn't have the kill about them that I wanted them to have. I took it out of them. It was my fault, nobody's fault, but mine.
Speaker 1:So it was kind of a drive killer.
Speaker 2:Yep I think so.
Speaker 1:Have you ever had and this might be getting too much in your business but have you ever had dog and I know you're everybody talks about your breed and that you're a very, very smart and conscientious breeder but have you ever had pups that just didn't have it? I mean you're man, this is just a pet dog. Yep and do. If you compared a litter of those to a litter of labs, is it less in the cockers that you'll have dogs that just don't have what it takes to hunt?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it needs to be in a pet home. I think so and I think even so, much of the time the ones that don't have it. It probably is how they were raised. Okay, A lot of times, and I think that's with a Labrador too, I mean yeah, there's some that are. I mean, just because two PhDs in astrophysics have a child doesn't mean they're going to have a smart child. Same thing in the dog world, but you got a freaking good chance of it If you play your cards right.
Speaker 2:You've done the best you can do. Right Right do is a breed right right um, but I think there's always that chance you're gonna have one that's like sorry um and even in like, for example, in our warranty when people come and get the puppies, that's stated very plainly this is from working field trial stock, but there's no guarantee of their working ability.
Speaker 1:It's just I'm dealing with biology here that I can't control but I would just seem me as a spectator and hearing everybody talk about cockers like to do here and you talk about them. I would just assume, and that's always dangerous. I would just assume that there's less of that in this field. Cocker world of dogs that don't cut mustard, that don't make, that don't have it. It seems like those dogs are just out of the box, ready to hunt.
Speaker 2:Right, and there's a difference too. I know there's dogs. I think most of them will make gun dogs. The special ones, which this is not my game, the special ones make field trial dogs, in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, and that's there's times, and I don't need that high end field trial dog for my breeding program, I don't. That's that's the reason I've gotten. A lot of the dogs that I have here in the U? S is hey, this is a great dog, very, very well bred. It's going to make a great gun dog. It's not going to make that If it won't potentially win the British championship. I don't want it. That's, that's what I'm getting and that's fine, because most of my clients couldn't deal with that high end dog anyway.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean and I think most and also I mean, let's just be totally honest. A quote unquote big time hunter in America. What do they hunt Really? Let's just be totally honest. A quote-unquote big-time hunter in america what do they hunt really? Let's just be honest 12 days a year, 15 days a year you better pray to god that thing will calm down because you've got 350 days. You got to deal with that thing in some other way. Um, so there's, there's. There's some dogs that I've seen that I'm like gosh, that thing doesn't have much go. The client thinks it's amazing. I'm like great, because I'll never forget the rest of my life.
Speaker 2:I was at the Bird Dog Hall of Fame. A friend of mine, a good friend of mine's dad, was being inducted into the hall. I went down for the induction, I go to the bathroom and who's standing there but Delmer Smith. And if you're in the bird dog world you know who Delmer Smith is. He wrote the Bible. He did, he did a hundred percent and I was.
Speaker 2:I was getting ready to get a dog from South Georgia, brittany, that went back to some of his stuff in the 60s. I was so excited to tell delmer about it and delmer said you know the greatest dog in the world and I'm like, oh god, this is like moses is coming down from the mountain. I want to write this down. He said the greatest dog in the world is a dog that does what you want it to do. Wow, and that was revolutionary to me because at that point my dogs all had to measure up to. I mean, just example, mike Stewart's here's what his dogs have to be. So my dogs have to be that too and I wanted my dogs to be that great.
Speaker 2:But that gave me freedom in that you know what, if I can go out and I enjoy my dog doing whatever the crap, it is that I want it to do and it's not what this other person does, who cares. It was very freeing to me and that's what I tell people in my puppy class Now when they come to get their puppies that you know my standard may be here for you, but if that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, that's just me. And if you're happy with your dog chasing birds after you shoot rock and roll man, I'm not. But that's you. Do what you want to be happy. Don't do what I want and be miserable. The rest of your life with your dog, enjoy your dog, whatever that freaking means.
Speaker 1:The rest of your life with your dog, enjoy your dog, whatever that freaking means.
Speaker 2:No, you're right and you know, I know me like myself, I've got things I like in a dog and things I don't like.
Speaker 1:And if I have a dog I've worked with and trained with and it gets to a point and I see it's not, I'll sell it to somebody. I know that would appreciate that, but it's just not what I want. Right, right, yeah, no, I get that. That's why it's a. I wish I'd have been standing there with you. I'd like to. I've never got to. I've read his book, but yeah, he's an amazing man.
Speaker 2:That would have been something else. Yep, he's an amazing man, for sure.
Speaker 1:That needs to be like on a t-shirt but, you know that britney I had was out. You know I've gotten off his son and it was out. Supposedly all that stuff, beautiful dog, and it ended up being a good dog. It just wasn't a good fit for my, my personality, right, right maybe yeah, I didn't want to ruin it so I got it out of my hands into better hands at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, good deal. Well, hey, I know you're a busy man. It's been. I've learned a lot and it just makes me more excited to hunt with a cocker Every time I talk to somebody and I've had Jay, I've had guys on here that are, like I said, I had probably several guys on here that are lab guys and they all own a co and you know, yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm pumped up and it likes it, I'd like to get up there with you. Are you going to be at pheasant fest?
Speaker 2:I maybe. I'm not for sure yet, but I'm going to do cause that's in March, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's March the 7th and 8th, kansas city. Yeah, I'm going to have a booth there just to promote the podcast.
Speaker 1:I've never done that before and I just thought man it sounds fun and I can talk to anybody all day long If I get back up there, because the stuff I do for a living I'm still a landlady and I do oil and gas and I do renewal energy so I may be back up near Neck Woods I'm going to call you and I do all renewal industry, so I may be back up in your neck what's that? I'm going to call you and come visit.
Speaker 1:Please do everything for sure. That'd be great. All right, jay. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure having you and again tell people how they can find Raglan gun dogs.
Speaker 2:Our website is raglan gundogscom or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Raglan Gundogs.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, it's been a pleasure having you on here, Maybe we'll do this again. Have us follow up in a year or so. I appreciate it. Yes, sir, thank you. Thank you, uh-huh.