Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Gundog Nation #019: Declan Boyle - Tullyah Gundogs, IKC/KC Judge, Gundog Trainer
In this engaging conversation, Kenneth Witt interviews Declan Boyle, a renowned gundog trainer from Ireland. Declan shares his journey into the world of gundogs, discussing the structure of national gundog teams, the importance of obedience in training, and the various competitions held across Europe. He also delves into the practices of hunting with retrievers, the regulations surrounding firearms in the UK, and his experiences as a judge in gundog competitions. Declan concludes by reflecting on his breeding career and the current state of his kennel. In this conversation, Kenneth Witt and Declan Boyle discuss various aspects of dog training and field trials, emphasizing the importance of selecting the right dog, the challenges of breeding, and the nuances of training and handling dogs for competitions. They share personal experiences, insights on what traits to look for in a field trial dog, and the significance of community engagement through charity events. The conversation also touches on the experiences of interacting with royalty in the gundog world and the cultural differences in dog trials between the UK and the US.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt and I'm coming to you from Texas. I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is more than just a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who want to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we are set out to try to encourage youth, to get encouraged in the sport of gun dogs, whether it's hunting, competition, trials, hunt tests, all the above. This is a community of people that are united to preserve our heritage of gun dog ownership and also to be better gun dog owners. So if you'll stay tuned to all of our episodes, we're going to have people on here to educate you about training, about nutrition, health. Anything can make you a better gun dog owner. It's my pleasure to welcome our listeners and please join our community.
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Speaker 1:Hello, welcome back to gundog nation. I'm talking to y'all day from midland texas and, uh, this is a real exciting day for me. I've known this gentleman's reputation since I got into labs back probably late 14, 15, and got to meet him overseas back in November. This is my first overseas guest, so I'm real proud to have you as my first overseas guest, mr Declan Boyle. Mr Boyle, tell everybody just a little, introduce yourself and let people know a little bit about you, then we'll start digging in.
Speaker 2:So I'm Declan Boyle. I'm a retriever gundog trainer from Ireland. I would have started gundogs about 25 years ago would have been my first one. My wife Samantha also trains dogs, so I'm an A-panel judge in the Irish Kennel Club and I'm also an A-panel judge in the UK Kennel Club. My wife Samantha is a B-panel judge in the UK Kennel Club, so I wouldn't call myself a professional gundog trainer as such. Maybe some people would, but I'm also a carpet fitter so I lay flooring. Okay, a while I was gonna say about myself.
Speaker 1:I'm the captain of the Irish gundog team yeah, and you know, declan, I'm gonna ask you some stuff about that now before I forget, because you've got so much stuff that I can talk about. Explain to us, because we don't have that here in the States. We don't have, you know, like national gundog teams, at least to my knowledge. Maybe, if we do, someone needs to educate me about it. But what does that entail? Do you all go out and compete? Do you to compete just in the united kingdom, or do you go into europe and compete? How does that work?
Speaker 2:so there's there's a few different competitions, so it's basically for like working tests. So we'd be we would use dummies, would use we're called bumpers and during the, so that obviously the trial season's just over, at the end of January, so now we would start on back training again and back using dummies or bumpers and on. I think the first competition is in May, so the first competition is called the Skinners World Cup. So the Skinners World Cup entails four retrievers from each country, I'm going to say each country. It's usually Ireland, england, scotland, wales and most of the European countries. So I think there's about 16 teams I think has been the most that has ever been at the competition, so we all meet. So what will happen was I've been been the most that has ever been at the competition, so we all meet. So what will happen was I've been appointed the captain and we will start doing selection tests. So the selection tests will be involving people coming in and doing like a mark retrieve to see which dog is marking the best on a dummy, and it could range from 70 yards to maybe 200 meters or 200 yards, okay. So at the competition itself, the first day involves a double retrieves, so each person will go in each dog and they'll get a mark retrieve and they could end up getting a blind retrieve, which is unseen, and they'll be asked to pick both in the order of the judges that the judges want. So what happens is we'll end up starting to do a selection test for Ireland next month I think it's the start of the month we're going to start doing it and we're trying to get the top four dogs in ireland okay.
Speaker 2:So what I do is a. I try to get. I think last year we'd done them for a different competition, so there's a few. So I say there's the Skinners event, then there's Scone Game Fair, which is in Scotland. It's held at Scone Palace and it entails three Spaniels and three Retrievers, so it's a mix. The scores both get added up at the very end of the day. And then there's what was always called the big game fair, which is in England. This year it's in Wraggley Hall down near Birmingham I think, and it entails five retrievers and five Spaniards. So we start with selections In March and we run them right Through to Well, for the big game we run them right through Into May. So what we do is we do a few. We call them selections or viewings. So we come in, we watch, we look at dogs, we look at them over a period of 4 or 5 different viewings and then at the end of it we pick a team and hopefully the best team goes Okay.
Speaker 1:And then I guess all those countries compete for like a national title, or what would the title be?
Speaker 2:Well, it's the Skinners event. The Skinners event is only four retrievers, so that's the one that's going to have just all the european teams involved. Okay, I should have explained the one for screen game fair and the other big game fair. In england it's only they call it the home nations or the four nations, which is only Ireland, england, scotland and Wales.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I know it sounds horrible, I keep forgetting Wales is in the United Kingdom. I always think Scotland, ireland, england. Forgive me, but when you first said it a while ago I thought, oh gosh, I keep forgetting that Interesting Okay. And then once that honor the one that so there'll be a winning Spaniel and a winning Retriever.
Speaker 2:There'll be a winning Spaniel team for the two game fairs. There'll be a winning Spaniel team and there'll be a winning Retriever team, and then there'll be awards for that and then there'll be an overall award. Okay, so you've probably heard and you've probably seen. The captain of the England team is David Latham. Yeah, he's very, very famous. And the captain of the Scottish team is actually my father-in-law. He's Sam's father. This is his first year of doing it, and before that they change their captain or they do a vote every three years. Okay, so this year, robin, sam's father, has a. He's a privilege of being the captain of scotland, and then alan reese is the captain of wales. Okay, so they do something similar they all go, they all do a selection and then they try to pick the best dogs from each country.
Speaker 1:okay, uh, and that you know I'm supposed to have ben skinner on here. Uh, we, he's so busy, it's hard. We were supposed to do it last week and we've kept missing each other, so I'm I'm excited to get him on here too. It it's so interesting to me. I love history, I love tradition, declan, but I had no idea until I was researching the Skinner dog food how old that company was. It's brilliant, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:They are so supportive of the gundogs. It's crazy. I mean I always have the Skinners. I had the Skinners hat on there and I thought maybe I'd take it off.
Speaker 1:Actually, I always have the Skinners hat on there and I thought maybe I'd take it off. Actually, I think you might have. Did you have that on when I was talking to you? Yes, yeah, I think so. Yeah, you're the one who introduced me to Ben, I think. But anyway, no, that's so neat. Let me ask you this I assume that you got into these dogs first because you were a hunter, or was it vice versa?
Speaker 2:I always done a little bit. What well, how it started was I bought myself, uh, an air rifle just to shut the little pellets so I would go out and shoot some, uh, rabbits. And then what happened was my brother. He used to go and train his dog, which was only like a pet dog. He didn't have any papers for it, it wasn't full pedigree so he couldn't run it in any competitions. But he went and he used to train with a guy called Thomas Cuse and they were friendly so he would have went out.
Speaker 2:And then I got a bit of an interest in it and I started seeing what my brother could do with the dog. And I mean it was, she was just a pet to me, she was, it was his pet, and so I thought this looks interesting. And that's basically how I got into it. I started to go follow him or go with him, get a lift and then go and see what these dogs were doing, and I thought that would be brilliant to do. But at that time I didn't have a dog. So it was actually Thomas rang me up and said to me do you want? I've got a dog here. It's a bit scared, it's a bit nervous, I don't think it's going to make trials. And I said, right, ok, that's good, and I kept it in a little shed just at the side of my house and I used to take it out every day.
Speaker 2:I used to come home from work and think, right, I wonder what I could do with her, I wonder if I could be able to get her to sit. Then I got her tried to. I used to walk the roads and bring her down to the local shop and let the dogs see people, and she was a little bit nervous. She would. Sometimes, if people approached me, she would bark at them. But then I didn't know any different. I didn't know what they were supposed to do.
Speaker 2:Yes, so then, thomas Hughes, they used to do like a group training Him and a few people used to meet up on a Wednesday evening and on a Saturday. So I used to go watch, throw dummies for them. I never brought my dog out and I'd done this for months. Just go and set up some retrieves, and basically I'd done what Thomas told me Walk over there, set them in an exact position. You couldn't set them 10 yards to the left or 10 yards to the right, they had to be in the exact spot. So then they knew exactly where they were. So if the dogs were basically not picking them, at least then they knew. Okay, well, you've actually put them to the wrong place. So I've done that for a few months and during the week. So so I've done that for a few months and during the week. So, like the Monday, tuesday, I used to train with them on a Wednesday. I'll go and set up stuff for them at a Wednesday. The Thursday and Friday I used to go to the same ground because it was close to me and I used to bring my black bits that I got and I used to do the exact retrieves that they were doing. So that went on for, I suppose, a few months and then I traveled.
Speaker 2:One day I went out on a Saturday and one of the guys that came says, do you not have a dog? I said, well, I do, but bring it out. And that was Jimmy Black. So Jimmy Black has won the irish championship, very famous gundog trainer in ireland, and so I brought these, brought katie out and I'd done the same retrieves that they were doing. And they were all amazed they couldn't believe that how's he got the dog going so well now it wasn't going as well as theirs, but she went okay. I don't think she ever would have made competition because at that stage I didn't really know what it was doing. I was just going and putting the dummy out and walking back and sending her back and just trying to make sure that the next time I brought her out she'd do it a little bit better and hopefully impress these guys that they would let me one day do a bit of training with them. So that's where it started.
Speaker 2:Then, eventually I end up buying a pup and I got it off a fella called Thomas Brady, which is Glenann Labrador, and I trained it up to it, but it was two-year-old Again. I'd only been at one or two little competitions just to watch them. And this lady she was called Lady Waterford, she was, I suppose, royalty from the south of Ireland, and she came up she'd seen the dog and she wanted to buy him. So I ended up selling it and sometimes I think maybe I shouldn't have sold it, you know, because he was going really well, yeah. So I went from that to I bought an 11-month no, yeah, an 11-month-old dog of a fella. I think it was within a couple of days of selling this dog, 11-month-old dog of a man, and that was the start of it. It was a dog called Glenlock Ruff. I made him up a field trial champion. The first competition I run him in I won it. It was only like a novice working test, but to me I had won the world cup a.
Speaker 2:They always do the club that was running the event. They always you do the competition, which is three or four different retrieves, and then what will happen is they do a little run off at the end, so they bring in the top eight dogs. Now there might be five or six points in the difference and I was the last dog to go. I was the latest dog to go and the seven before me had to go and do a blind retrieve and I couldn't see what they were doing. So when I walked out to do my retrieve, the judge says to me okay, tell me where it was. He says, just to let you know, everybody else before you has failed. So I ended up picking it and because I was shown what to do and how to do it, I ended up winning the competition. So it was my first trophy. So within a few years I made him up an Irish field trial champion, and that was the addiction. Kicked in then.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. You know one of the things I've kind of wondered. I think I know the answer, but I'm going to ask you do you guys and I've always tried to study you, to study methods from the UK and training, but do you all you try to get a really solid obedience and you wait, I guess, up until several months old before you start hunting drills or retrieve drills Is that accurate to say? Or when do you normally start those drills or that type of training?
Speaker 2:with the obedience. It did take me a few years, even after this dog, to actually realize well, you need to have the heel. Work was very, very important. So I suppose we well, I start a little bit of sitting and staying just making sure that you're able to walk away from the dog heel walk is probably one of the first things that they do, because nowadays a lot of the field trials over here are walking tests or walked up. But if your dog doesn't walk the heel, it doesn't matter how good of a retriever he is, you're never getting a retrieve. I know it was a little bit different when you came over to the igl this year because it was all driven, yes. So I suppose if your dog didn't walk the heel for the first two days it didn't really matter because all I had to do is take them off the lead, set them down. But it did take me a while to realize I need to make this better with all my dogs, because I was always a little. I wanted to work on the retrieving part of it rather than the obedience. But now this last, I suppose 20 years now I've realized the obedience. You need to do it first. You need to, as you said you need to have a solid obedience. You need to. As you said, you need to have a solid obedience.
Speaker 2:So the dog, what I walk with mostly is he'll walk, sit and stay. That's then I'll start doing retrieving. When I'm doing retrieving it's mostly, as I call them, memories. So I'll walk out to a position, set a dummy down and I'll walk back, and that's how I start doing doing and then I'll do one retrieve and then, from the same place, the sending place, I mean I'll maybe set, walk out to a different angle, put a dummy down and walk back and I'll maybe, from the same position, be able to send the dog in five or different angles from the same place, so I'm able to tell the dog in five or different uh angles from the same place, so I'm able to tell the dog I can go there, you can go there, you can go there, and all from the same place.
Speaker 1:So it's easy then for the dog to learn, I think anyway yeah, you know, and I don't know, deco, maybe you guys call it the same thing. I think that I hear it referred to as like a wagon wheel drill, yes, something similar. So a wagon wheel kind of? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would usually start that about nine months old, roughly Okay. I know there is other people that maybe starts it a lot earlier. Okay, but I think if you start a dog too early it can make the dog in my opinion it gets them either too excited, they can start to make a little bit of noise because they're really hyped up, ready to go. I think nine, ten months is a good age Okay.
Speaker 1:That's good to know. I'm kind of at that stage right now Okay. I was doing that for my own personal reasons. Declan, did you ever obviously you're well, well known in the retriever world Did you ever hunt or use or train other breeds spaniels, springers, cockers, anything else?
Speaker 2:I've never really trained them, but I had a springer there for a number of years, because the father-in-law has a chute and I'm going to say there's about a thousand pheasants on it and I had a dog called Storm that I bought a Springer Spaniel and, as we call it, the old style Spaniel big, strong Spaniel, and he was absolutely brilliant. Then a friend of mine needed a Spaniel, so'll give it to him because I wasn't using them during the summer and so I ended up giving to him a few years ago. But what I use now is just my labradors. So for hunting I just hunt the labradors in front of them, have a couple of them at my heel and have one or two out in front hunting I'm gonna going to have you do something for me, just for the listeners.
Speaker 1:Declan, I've witnessed it and it's something to see, but explain to our listeners here in the US what a chute is and how many birds are usually shot.
Speaker 2:I suppose there's different sizes of chutes so you can have a lot of big, big places. Now I'm sure big estates, now I'm sure biggest states could put. A gamekeeper will never tell you how many boards he puts down. I don't know. It must be a rule. It must be a secret rule that they're not allowed to tell. But I know some people saying that oh, there's 10,000 boards down, there could be 50,000 boards down. It depends.
Speaker 2:Some shoots. I think in Scotland could maybe shoot five, six days a week. They could shoot a range between 300 birds in a day, pheasants, or they could maybe shoot 500, 600. I don't know. We in Ireland I would go to to, I'm going to say a friend's shoot. He might shoot 50 birds, they might shoot 150 birds. It just depends.
Speaker 2:But people pay, like as we call them, guns. They come, they pay for a day. The gamekeeper has beaters, so they'll come with their span. The gamekeeper has beaters, so they'll come with their spaniels and they'll beat the woods out and the guns will be either in a little valley or somewhere slightly lower than the ground that they're beating out and they'll beat the pheasants out and the guns shoot them. We with our retrievers, we would stand behind the guns. So we pick the boards up and then obviously the keeper counts how many boards are shot and that you know. As I said, some, some people might take a 50 board day, 100 board day. There could be 300 board days. I've been on a few 300-board days and that's a lot of work for retrievers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and is it correct that you're all not using the retrievers to flush at all? They're just retrieving?
Speaker 2:Most of them do. If I'm out shooting by myself, if I'm taking my own dogs out, I will hunt. Well, I have a dog called Wilson. He's a field trial champion and I mean for the last coming up to the end of the season there, that's all I was doing with him. He wasn't at my side at all.
Speaker 2:I'll have him hunting out like a spaniel. You know, okay, he's maybe just not as good as a spaniel, but for me he was flushing woodcock, he's been flushing pheasants, and as soon as the bird gets up he sits down. He doesn't chase them. Well, sometimes he did, but he's not supposed to chase them. So he doesn't get shot, because I'll get him to stop. He'll stop, or I'll get him to stop if he goes through a bush and he comes out the other side and a bird gets away and if it's shot he'll stay there. And then I'll maybe send one of my other dogs which is at my heel just like a mark of a tree for them.
Speaker 2:Okay, but usually they don't hunt their Labradors, it's usually Spaniels. They would use A lot of our trials we do walked up trials a lot and the judge will have two retrievers on one side, two handlers and their dogs, two handlers and on the other side and we could have five to six spaniel men in the same line, but just slightly in front of us, hunting their dogs, putting up partridge and pheasants and snipe or whatever the quarry is, you know, when I, when I was there and I'd been told this before I got there, but I just never seen so many birds in my life, I'd never seen that many pheasants.
Speaker 1:They were like flies, like mosquitoes, you know, and the roads walking around and it was explained to me that they really have no predator.
Speaker 2:There is one reason there's so many All there would really be would be foxes okay, but there are a lot of them as controlled okay, because if you, well, obviously they get shot. Uh, people, the game keepers would go out and sort of look for them in at nighttime and stuff.
Speaker 1:So they are controlled is fox hunting still big there on horseback like the gentleman style fox hunting.
Speaker 2:I don't think they're allowed to do it anymore.
Speaker 1:I know they do it in the states, but that's an English tradition, correct?
Speaker 2:There was a van a number of years ago. I don't think they're allowed to. Just my wife is telling me you're allowed to what they're not allowed to be used with hounds. I think they can. I think I'm not big into the horse and fox shooting or anything like that, not that I disagree with it, like, but I just, I, just, I just don't do it. I have shot a lot of foxes, but uh, I don't know anything about the horses, unfortunately, but I know there was a band put on them.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's just just a side question, but you know you mentioned earlier that your first purchase of a gun was and it just got my wheels turning that you'd purchased a pellet rifle and air rifle. Is that because it's harder to get? I know it's much harder than the States, but what's?
Speaker 2:it like to obtain a firearm for hunting in the UK. It has got a lot better. Okay, it has got a lot better and there has been I'm not going to say it's been easier to get one now it probably does. It has to go obviously over here. We'd have to send the license into the police station and then it goes to the firearms officer and it could take. I would say, with a larger rifle you might have to have a deer license. I think before you're allowed to apply for a rifle you have to have a deer license. I think before you're allowed to apply for a rifle you have to do have a deer course. If you're going to shoot deer, obviously okay, you have to do a course before that so more involved than a shotgun.
Speaker 2:Yes, for a rifle would be harder to get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay are you allowed to to own or possess a handgun?
Speaker 2:I think some people do if they're in a like a shooting club. But no, none of I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Not the general public. No, no, okay, interesting. Uh, you know we take that for granted because here we can, you know, especially I live in texas, so have everything. Yes, uh, you know, I went to Canada hunting a few years ago and walked in Cabela's, which we have here in the States, and went up to the counter with a box of shells for a rifle and she asked me for my card and then I learned it's for residents only and it was really even for residents. I don't think it was that easy.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but anyway, but, but you know, it's just over here.
Speaker 2:Okay, it would be difficult over here. You know you're. Every time you you go, when I go in to buy some cartridges shotgun cartridges you have to hand your license over and they put it into the computer and they stamp your license.
Speaker 1:So hello, this is kenneth witt and gundog nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply. Based in Alabama, retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leashes are, and they source them locally. They have anything you want Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply. The other thought that I had I was thinking about. You know, when you guys have a shoot and you're shooting a lot, I assume over there that's pretty expensive. Your ammo, your ammunition, yeah, it has got expensive and it, I assume over there that's pretty expensive your ammo, your ammunition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has got expensive and it must be expensive. I don't know what guns pay, but I know it probably goes in. It could be £1,000 for a day. That's only just for the shoot. Some shoots might charge that's for shooting birds. Some shoots could charge £2,000, some shoots could probably charge £3,000 a day per gun Charges. I think they've doubled in price the last number of years.
Speaker 1:Wow, I know because I figured it's similar. I looked at an Argentina hunt where you shoot lots of birds, I think, the ammo. You have to pay for the ammo separately, the shotgun shell separately and it ends up being about the same cost as the hunt itself, which is roughly about $3,000 American. Yeah, I did hear that. Yes, so yeah, I just wonder if it's kind of that way there at those shoots. Probably similar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's going to be expensive, yes, and it's probably worse if you keep missing.
Speaker 1:Now you similar yeah, it's going to be expensive if you're yes, and it's probably worse if you keep missing. Now you you'd mentioned earlier I was going to get you explain this a little bit that you're, you're an, a judge, a panel, and your wife is a b panel judge. What's the difference I'm just to make sure I'm clear on that myself between the a panel, the b panel. I, the B panel, I guess, is what I should say.
Speaker 2:So in both kennel clubs I'm in A panel, so I'll start with the UK kennel club first. So you'll start off running dogs basically, and a club in the UK, in Northern Ireland, there'll be I think there's probably about 70 different gundog clubs. Wow, there's the main kennel club but then all these clubs are affiliated with them and when you get involved in gundogs the secretary of the club might think, oh, we'll give him a judging appointment. So it usually starts off with like a working test. So with a working test you don't really need to be that experienced. I suppose sometimes you'll go if you don't have much experience. They maybe put you along with a A panel judge, which is like a senior judge. So a club will ask you to to judge if they. If they ask you to judge a field trial, what happens is the Kennel Club then gives you a judging number so the Kennel Club will list every time that you judge a field trial. So to go from a non-panel, as they call it. So basically, your first time you have to judge six novice trials, because a non-panel judge in the UK is only allowed to judge a novice trial, which is like I'm not going to put an age on it because somebody could have a novice dog at five-year-old or six-year-old Maybe. They just didn't win, but it's usually from two-year-old dogs, three, four-year-old, that sort of that least experience and there'll be like an open trial, only a lot easier. The retrieves will be a lot shorter. So a non-panel judge is only allowed to judge novice trials. Okay, but at that novice trial there'll also be an A-panel judge which is like a senior judge, and they could have two A panel judges and two non-panel judges, or they could have an A and a B. So to go from a non-panel.
Speaker 2:Then the next step is after you judge like six or seven trials and you get a good report to say that you're good with the competitors, that you know the rules of the UK account, that you know everything and that you know how to run I'm going to say a field trial, you know how everything is organized, right. Then the A-panel judge actually does a little report on you and the report would be to say that he was good. Yes, I think he'd be able to go forward as a B panel. So you have to do it, you have to be involved for three or four years, okay, then a club might put you forward to say that they want you to go up to a B panel judge. So it goes to the Kennel club. They look at all the reports and if they think that you're good enough then you might go up under the B. Okay, a B panel judge probably knows I'm not going to say as much as an A panel but you just have to go through your education. I suppose you become a B panel judge. You have to go through your education. I suppose you become a B panel judge. You have to be a B panel for three years. Again, on every trial that you judge, the A panel will write a report on you and then you go up to an A panel eventually If you get I think it's six, I think it's six different A panel judges has to write reports and you have to judge a minimum of five or six trials and I think so many of them have to be open trials. So either a one day stake or a 24 dog two day stake. So there is a lot of people want to judge Right and they want to go from a non-panel up to an A-panel within a couple of years.
Speaker 2:Because everybody thinks and I mean I've probably done it myself when I started off judging I thought, oh yeah, this is good. But the good thing about judging is, I mean, it's not a paid job. Usually you get criticized because there's only usually one happy person at the end of the day. You know, we all go to trials and think our dog's the best dog and then we, we don't get into the awards. But that's, that's the way it is, judges and it's. There's no real. What's the word I'm looking for here?
Speaker 2:Hey, everybody has a different opinion of what they like as a gundog. So when it comes to retrievers, I mean I might like a dog that just runs out, stops, picks a bird. Other people will like their dog to go out and hunt an area and love to see a dog hunting where, if I think my dog's slightly short of it, I'd stop him and push him back. Some other handlers would just leave him and hopefully that the dog goes back to the area. Some judges like that and I mean everybody has a different opinion. So, unfortunately, when it comes to the end of the trial and there's only one winner and the rest of the people are thinking I thought I had that one. So a lot of judges probably do get criticized wrongly, because we all look at the gundogs different. I mean, it's a tough job, it is a human it's a human sport, yeah but that's the way of it.
Speaker 2:The A panel would be obviously the senior judge.
Speaker 1:Okay, declan, you can go through this list, but you've judged panels not just within the United Kingdom and the four countries of the United Kingdom or the States I guess you would call it but you've also been in Europe judging correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've judged the Italian Championship. I think it was in 2019. I've judged the Swedish Championship in 2018. I've judged the Danish Championship in 2022. And I've judged the European Championships. So each country in Europe for the European championships. So each country in Europe for the European championships. I think I judged in 2012. And then in 2024, I judged it and it was in Italy, and it's two people or two handlers from each European country and they're the best. I think maybe they call like the most points that you gain are the most field trial awards that you gain in in the year before, and that's what qualifies you and it's it's a big concern the european championship, and it's been very, it was an honor to well. I've judged it twice now and both times I've been in italy, so it's been really good now, when you go there, do you speak the language?
Speaker 1:no okay, you just have translated okay most.
Speaker 2:To be honest, truthfully, most of them speak english, okay yes, yeah, there will be a certain amount that doesn't.
Speaker 2:I think this year there was a man from spain that all he'd on the spanish and he had his translator with him. So when I was giving them a mark on a board that he didn't see, I would say it to the lady and the lady would say it to him, translate it over to him. It can be a little bit different sometimes because I suppose I'm Irish, I talk fast, so a lot of them think what? So then I have to think hold on, slow down, probably like I'm doing now, but just slow down a little bit, and sometimes you can have, you know, when you're trying to explain something, maybe a mark of trees that's at a certain tree, and they don't actually understand what you're saying, but they maybe send the dog anyway. Sometimes it gets a little bit confusing, but most of them speak really good English, which is good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would definitely be a challenge, I would think. Now I know for a while that you were a breeder. You still have a kennel name that I'm familiar with. Tell me about your breeding career and I think, and whether you're still doing that Well this last number of years.
Speaker 2:We haven't bred anything, I think, because we've got a kennel full of dogs. We have enough dogs probably to do us for the next so many years, I think, with 12 Labradors at the minute. So they range from 10 months old up to my old champion dog, which is 12 it's actually his birthday today. He's 12 years old today. So I have bred some some really nice dogs. I've bred some champion dogs.
Speaker 2:What we try to do is, if you can get a good female, I suppose years ago you always went, because a lot of people don't go and watch the IGL, so they only watch the DVD of the IGL that used to come out. I've done it for years. Let's go and we'll breed to the dog that has won the IGL. I think most people have probably done that Now I suppose it's a little bit different. Now you go and you see all the dogs.
Speaker 2:I could go out training my own dog and have a really bad session, a really bad session, and people would come out and go I'll not use that that dog. But then I could go to the next field trial and go win it and people always look at the results. They don't actually look at what dog? I'm not saying everybody, but some people do. They always want to use the dog that's won the IGL and I mean I've done that for years and they have produced really, really good dogs. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Tucker. Mundy won the IGL this year and it's a fantastic dog, absolutely fantastic. So I'm not saying don't go and use it. I mean it's that's what we always done. We always went and used the dog that won the IGL and, as I said, most people would do that. And why would you not?
Speaker 1:I can see the benefit of going. Just, you know, this is my first year. You know, back in November when I went to the IGL and there was two dogs there that really caught my eye, that I really liked their hunting ability, just stuff that I saw that didn't win, but I love the blood. I'd love to know more about those dogs and, believe it or not, I kept the brochure from the hunt and I circled and highlighted some dogs I really liked. But you're right, you, you. I mean obviously they've won for a reason, but there's still a lot of good dogs there that don't get the recognition.
Speaker 2:Oh no, they will. They will, you know. I mean the dog that did win the championship this year. I've seen him on plenty of trials and he is, he's a fantastic dog. But again it's like, truthfully, when I won the IGL right, I mean the dog was going nice but it always depends on what the other dogs do I mean there was a dog when I was the year I won it there was a dog in my opinion was going better than my dog and unfortunately the lady went out nearly on her eighth retrieve and that just she was out of the way and it made it better for me. I ended up picking a runner at the end of the trial and, truthfully, before that I've never actually seen my dog taking a runner and he he took it maybe 60, 70 yards and I was even amazed and it was down in like a hole. The bird had gone down and he went and picked it and that one retrieve probably won me the IGL, where a lot of the time, a lot of it's luck, yeah, a lot of it's luck.
Speaker 2:But breeding wise, you said, said we haven't bred this last three or four years because it does take up a lot of time. If you're going to breed a litter of pups, you need to be with them. I'm going to say 24 7. You can't be away. Me and the wife we do, as I said, these team events. We're always away from the house. We be in Europe judging sometimes, and so we've decided let's just put the breeding to the side at the minute.
Speaker 1:We'll have enough dogs at the minute. So that's it's a lot of work, isn't it? I never wanted to be a breeder either and I won't be, and I'm glad there's people that have the patience to do it, that I can call and get a puppy from, but it's not what I'd want to do. So you've been about 24 years in it, you've judged a lot and I guess with your full-time job, declan, you don't really. You obviously said you're not a pro trainer, meaning you don't train for money.
Speaker 2:No, okay, and I'm not trying to get your business, I don't handle dogs for anybody here.
Speaker 1:Okay, they're just my own dogs, and do you ever handle dogs for anybody in trials? Because I would think you're good at that.
Speaker 2:I've only done it twice, but it was for a friend that they couldn't make make a trial. I think I've actually done it three times. Uh, maybe three or four trials, but that that was it, and it's been a number of years ago now. Uh, I don't do anything. I get with my job. As I said, I'm a carpetter but I'm not busy all the time. I work for a big company and when they have a shop ready I go and do it. So it gives me a lot of free time to train my own dogs. So I'm saying I'm not a professional, but I mean we do some training lessons and we do stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And your wife? She competes too correct and trains.
Speaker 2:She competes as I I said, she's a b panel judge. She's sam has made up a field trial champion. She was called high walk carry and that was in 2019. She actually run in the. The championship that I won it was her first year running it and we have, I said, with 12 or 13 dogs now sam was a few few dogs. She's got herself a young bitch that she's running at the minute. She's got an award. The first trial she in november this year. She got an award on it.
Speaker 1:So how many for a field trial winner? How many do they just have to have one win to be titled field trial winner, or more than one?
Speaker 2:well, I don't think there's actually a title. Okay, you know, with a field trial champion you'll get a certificate, you'll say it. But with a field trial winner, well, I suppose we just say it's a field trial winner. You don't actually get a full title to say it's a field trial winner. Okay, but it's usually just a novice trial. When people win a novice trial, they'll call their dog a field trial winner.
Speaker 2:Okay, because you see that on some papers sometimes you know, like on pedigrees, and people are some people disagree with that, but I don't, because it's difficult enough to win a trial and if your dog wins a trial, he deserves a little bit of recognition. I think, yeah, you know, I know some people go, oh, but it's not, it's not a title, what are you putting it on for? Well, it shows the person that's going to either buy a pup or it's going to show something that the dog has actually done something.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, it's capable of winning now, y'all you know, here in the states we have hunt tests where you're not competing. Your dog is not competing against other dogs, just competing against itself to achieve a certain okay. Do you have anything similar to that?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. We have working, but there's no title for a working test.
Speaker 1:There's nothing like that. Declan all your years experience. What's your biggest?
Speaker 2:piece of advice you would give a young trainer starting out Don't rush, take your time with the dog, go to a I'm going to say a professional. Go to someone. If you want to do field trials, go to someone that's successful. Again, don't rush things. People want to rush, as I I always say, you have to do the, the boring stuff. You have to do the, the sitting and the staying and the walking to heal and getting that part right, before you do the fun stuff. If you get the boring stuff right, well then the fun stuff's going to be more fun, because then at least the dogs that's great advice.
Speaker 1:I need to write that down. That saying right there speaks volumes If you get the boring stuff right, the fun stuff will be more fun. Exactly no, I like that. And then, as far with all your experience and all the dogs you've seen and you probably know pedigrees overseas better than anyone you've seen and you probably know pedigrees overseas better than anyone If you're picking out a pup for yourself and you want this to be your next IGL champion, tell me what you look for. You don't have to give me names of dogs, but traits in dogs that you want to see. Everybody's got their own taste and what Declan wants, the guy down the road might disagree, but what do you like to see?
Speaker 2:Well, for field trials again, as I explained, there's different judges' looks for different things. From what I see now, you don't want this is going to probably sound wrong you don't want a dog that is too quick, too fast. Yes, it's nice and flashy and it's lovely to look at, but when you blow that stop whistle. The dog has to be really obedient. The dog has to be really obedient. If you have one that wants just to go and wants to hunt for itself, I try to stay away from them. Now where years ago I was thinking, wow, look at that dog, I'm going to take a pop out of that. And then when you get it, you think what am I going to do with this dog? So I try to get something that's sensible, because you need to be able to go to a field trial and think, right, I need to pick Most I'm going to say novice stakes. They probably end on five retrieves. So you could win a trial on five retrieves. A lot of the one-day stakes, which is open stakes, you could win maybe on five retrieves, maybe six retrieves. Some two-day stakes you could win maybe in five retrieves, maybe six retrieves, some two-day stakes. You need to be able to most of them six retrieves. Sometimes it can go up to seven retrieves. So you need something that you know that when you send it out for a retrieve, when you blow the whistle, the dog's going to obey you. So you don't want something that's too crazy, but still you don't want something that's too crazy, but still you don't want something that's too slow.
Speaker 2:So I try to look, for I suppose we all, we all look for, we always did. We always look for something really flashy, but it's changing a little bit now. You just need a dog that's nice and sensible and I call it an honest dog that when you blow the whistle and you stab the dog and you tell it to go left, that the dog goes left, that the dog doesn't just go no hold on a second I know what's here and put the head down and start hunting, because a lot of dogs can be like that. I've had them, I've had them for many years and I've made some of them up champions, uh, but they're just more difficult to handle. I look for a nice, sensible dog, a nice, sensible pup. If I'm going to pick a pup, I don't want the shy one that's too shy, but I don't want the crazy one.
Speaker 1:I want something in between I'm like that too definitely, and it's been from mistakes that I've. You know, I've had those amped up dogs that are hard to control, but had high drive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, it's a challenge I mean, if you're, if you're looking a shooting dog, well then it's good to have a high drive dog. Probably if you're shooting ducks on a lock, the dog's going to go in 50 times. Not that I would shoot 50 birds, I would probably miss, but if someone shot 50, they would go in 50 times if you needed them.
Speaker 1:But with field trials at the most in one day you're probably getting five retrieves and you may have already said this, but in the, in just your regular field trials, not the igl. But are you using bird, live birds or shot birds or dummies?
Speaker 2:in field trials. It's all life birds, okay. So there'll be birds on the ground. The keepers will have them, feeding them. There'll be a lot of birds out and you'll just walk up. They're all I'm not going to say the wild birds but they're on the ground. They're on the ground for months and I suppose keepers try to keep them in their state and then we'll just walk around their state or their, you know, and just walk them up. We'll use spaniels to flush them and we shoot them.
Speaker 1:And and just walk them up. We'll use spaniels to flush them and we shoot them and if the way I understood correctly when I was over there what I saw, it could be a variety of birds. Right, I even saw someone that told me what it was. I wouldn't have known a wood pigeon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, at the IGL, so you might have what chuggers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they'll be wild. They're just wild birds that obviously flew into the wrong place at the wrong time.
Speaker 1:But your dog could be retrieving a couple of different breeds or species.
Speaker 2:Yes, At a field trial. In Ireland we're not allowed to shoot hares like a big rabbit. Okay, In Scotland you'll have hares you could shoot snipe. It could be woodcock, partridge, pheasants, ducks. I'm trying to think what else there could be. That's usually what there could be. I say rabbits, so your dog has to be used to everything. Sometimes there could be geese.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know, declan, I was in the Army and I had to do a little uh training over in germany and I was doing pt. One morning I just first morning I got there and I'll tell you the whole story off the off the record, but I had my first experience with a german hair okay, and it was. It was probably as high as my knee and it was jumping. It was coming towards me and I didn't know what in the world it was. It's in the morning, it was foggy and cold, towards me and I didn't know what in the world it was. It's in the morning, it was foggy and cold and I thought I was hallucinating.
Speaker 1:But uh, everybody laughed at because they all knew what it was. And yeah, I was about to jump up and take off because I thought I was seeing things.
Speaker 1:But anyway, they're big, ours be big, yeah, uh, I'd never see a thing like that because you know I grew up rabbit hunting. We had, I had beagles and rabbit hunt a lot in Eastern Kentucky where I'm originally from. But yeah, but no, so I didn't. You know, I just I've seen you know a lot of videos of stuff in the UK and I'd seen dogs, you know labs retrieving hares. But I, just to you, mentioned that right then I didn't see that at the IGL, so you're not allowed to do that.
Speaker 2:No, and you're allowed to shoot them in the UK. Okay, in Ireland you're not allowed to shoot them. To be honest with you, we would hardly have any. They call it the Irish hare. You're not allowed to shoot them, but we wouldn't really have any. Is allowed to shoot them, uh, but we wouldn't really have any really low population. Yeah, okay, but at this, because this igl was driven it's you would never get them at it because they wouldn't be allowed. Well, I mean, if one of the guns, even if her, run past, I would think they wouldn't be allowed to shoot ground game at. Okay, driven trial.
Speaker 1:For safety. For safety reasons, yeah, okay, makes sense. But at the walk-ups then that's probably more likely to happen that you get a shot at a hair in the trial.
Speaker 2:I would say most IGLs there's been hair shot. Okay, I would say most of them usually. Now that's the first. I mean, I've been going to the IGL from 2007, and that's the first driven IGL that I've seen. Well, obviously, the third day was walked up, but the first two this year was driven.
Speaker 1:You know I'm a little ignorant to the royal hierarchy over there. I guess at this IGL there was a, a lady there, a duchess, maybe the duchess of devonshire?
Speaker 2:okay, she is. Yes, she's royalty and john halstead would run dogs for her. Okay, so I'm not sure if she's anything to do with the committee now of the igl, but she used, she used to be, I think she was used to be on the committee, but she puts, uh, she would have trials on her ground. Uh, I think she probably owns a couple of shoots. I don't really know much about her, but she's, I'm gonna say she'd be, very famous in the gundog world. She'd be and does a lot for gundogs in the UK.
Speaker 1:Nice. I saw I didn't, I think I know which one she was. She was kind of in a group. And I didn't approach them. Okay, I don't know how you're supposed to act, so I just kind of, you know, stayed away, which is probably the smart thing. But that was interesting. You know, that's something I've never been exposed to in my life. We don't have that here. So, okay, that was neat.
Speaker 2:Well, I remember the first igl I went to. It was in windsor and after the first day it was, I mean, again, like yourself, I've never uh, it was a new experience for me. So I walked back to the car and I walked around the top of the heads and the queen was standing 20 meters from me and I went, oh, I mean wow, I've never seen the lady before. I was just a shock to see her. She was just standing on her own and you know I didn't watch that that'd be something else.
Speaker 1:You know, I saw some old videos that look like they're probably from the mid-70s okay, of her being active at certain trials over there. I'm not sure what trials they were, but I just remember seeing some video of it.
Speaker 2:Well, well, the queen always, I mean at that championship she actually got into the line and walked in the line with all the competitors, Wow, and it was her 90th birthday. So what was organized was there was a gundog event, a gundog trial for the Queen's 90th and I was asked to be part of the Ireland team. So at the end of the day she came and she walked with us in line. Actually, I think I was in line when she appeared behind me and picked my retrieve and got out of the line and at the end of the day she presented us all with little trophies or little plaques. I mean, Ireland came fourth, there were four countries, and we got presented with little trophies by her. And I mean I she was had done so much for field trials in the uk. Yes, you know, there's a lot of trials on our ground. A lot of igls have been on our ground and it's been brilliant I love that.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting, um, but yeah, that's a. That was a new experience for me. Uh, you know, I I didn't get to talk to you a whole lot over there because you remember, I had just spent the second day of the trial at the US Embassy getting a passport emergency passport, but gosh, I swear to the deck when I stayed at the Branscombe Beach and that Mason Arms Hotel, oh, yes, yeah, yeah, oh my, it was centuries old. I think it was built in the 1300s, 14th century. Okay, just amazing. It was beautiful. Of course, it rained, flooded the whole time I was there. I had a little sunshine, but I just really enjoyed it. Everybody was so nice to me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah everybody is nice. It is yeah, yeah. I felt like I picked up some podcast listeners people that's messaged me that were over there that now start listening to it some. So that was nice, good, good, good, good. But I want to come back and they're telling me this year it's going to be in Scotland in Scotland?
Speaker 2:yes, is Scotland? Yes, is that correct? And amazing ground, absolutely amazing ground. I think the last time it was there was 2013 or 14, I think.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow so it'll be about 11 years or so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the guy that was third place, I think this year. Wow, so it'll be what? 11 years or so? Yeah, the guy that was third place I think this year Lee Jackson. He actually won it on this ground. I've actually run on the ground this year and I think two years ago I judged a field trial on it and it is amazing, absolutely amazing ground.
Speaker 1:Well, I really want to try to go. I enjoyed it so much. Uh, it was before you know it, the three days was up and it was over. Yeah, but uh I, I and I will be more prepared, uh, for the weather. I, I thought you I hunt and stuff over here, but I still wouldn't prepare for that much rain and that much mud, you know. Uh, but I, I live and learn, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um no, and it'll be totally different. It'll be a totally different sort of championship because it'll be three days. It'll probably be be walked up. It could be walked up. It could be up on the heather hills there could be some, I would think. I think the last time they had some game crop that they'd be walking through, but a lot of it's bracken and heavy heather and there'd be fences, probably that the dogs have to jump over. And most of it, I'm going to say it's about marking, that their dog's able to mark a board that gets shot and there doesn't be a pile of boards shot at the one time, like this year, and then the judges pick. It's basically what's shot. The judges ask you to pick.
Speaker 1:Now it seemed like someone told me before I left over there that I would be able to see a lot better at this shoot, this, this next trial. As far as being a spectator watching it, definitely Okay, cause you know, there was lots of times I couldn't see anything there.
Speaker 2:No, I know this. It was just. I suppose it was awkward for the committee because you know when. I'm sure I'm not sure how they got to this ground but if a keeper invites you or a landowner invites you, well, you don't want to say no. And I mean it's good because a lot of the trials, I think in the south of England can be driven trials. So it was good, I suppose, to have a driven trial, because you know if you're doing driven trials all the time and then you go to the championship and it's walked up well, then you're not getting, I suppose, what they do every day in their trials.
Speaker 2:So I suppose this year was a little bit different. I'm going to say I'm used to that because a lot of the Irish championships would be driven, most of them would be driven, and a lot of the Irish trials used to be driven. So we're used to sitting there for 30 or 40 minutes waiting for birds to get shot and then when they call the end of the drive, when it's over, they blow the horn and then you have to wait for your retrieve, where most of the trials in the upper parts in Scotland I don't think there's really any driven trials. I know Billy Steele and Billy Steele's in gundogs, maybe 50 years, and he said that was the first driven trial he was ever at was the championship. So viewing will be. I suppose it'll definitely be better this year. I suppose because you're in fields and there's trees. This year you're going to be walking all the time, so it's going to be constantly walking. I'm sure the gallery will be on the right or the left and this should see a good bit Okay.
Speaker 1:I really hope I get to go. When you work for a living it's like you, you have to plan and all that stuff, but my goal is to try to make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, good, good, no, you'll really enjoy it definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, declan, I know you've got a lot of things going on. With 12 Dogs I can almost I've got quite a few myself and I know you've got things to do. But I really appreciate you myself and I know you've got things to do, but I really appreciate you taking time. I know you did a charity event today. Did that go well?
Speaker 2:No, we're actually the charity event's first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh yeah, you've got to get ready for that, yeah it's in the morning and my wife is just here making sandwiches for the competitors tomorrow, I think she said she's making about 100 sandwiches. So that's what she's doing now, but we're over setting it up. Today we should. I think we have 60 to 70 dogs coming. It's for a cancer charity and again, it's always good for gundog people to give something back. They're not just looking at us running about with a gun under our arm and our dog by our side. It's good for us to do stuff and then at least people, local people in the area would go. Ah, they're the ones that raised some money for charity.
Speaker 1:And you know, declan, I'm sure it's the same way there as it is here. You know us gundog owners and gundog sports participants we need to do all we can for public relations because you know people don't understand what we do, get a bad rap and a bad reputation. True, true, true. No, it's great that you're all doing that. I hope that's very successful tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hopefully the weather looks good. So we're on the ground today just setting out different pegs and putting up ribbons and putting up banners and taking. We've got a raffle on tomorrow, so hopefully it goes good, as long as we can raise money. That's what it's about tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Good, good, I'll be hoping that goes well. You know, I actually had somebody ask me the other day. You know where I'd want to travel to next, which it's always been on my bucket list, but Ireland is on my list. I'm definitely going to come and see as much as I can see, and Scotland as well. That's a good place. Well, hey, I really appreciate you taking time. Declan and you and I will stay in touch anyway, and you've been a good friend to me. I'm very thankful for that, but hopefully I'll get to see you in person again here this year.
Speaker 2:Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully to see you in Scotland.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, you and your wife have a great year trying this year and judging, and I hope I wish you the best. Thank you very much. It was good to be on, all right. Well, thank you I'll. We'll see you later, okay, all right bye, bye hello, this is kenneth whitt with gundog nation.
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