Gundog Nation
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Gundog Nation
Gundog Nation #024: Wayne Lain - Snake Avoidance Training, Snake Breaker
Wayne Lain, known professionally as "Snake Breaker," brings over two decades of specialized expertise to this compelling episode of Gundog Nation. Having trained thousands of dogs to avoid dangerous encounters with venomous reptiles, Wayne shares the methodology that has potentially saved countless canine lives throughout Texas and beyond.
The conversation dives deep into the science and psychology behind effective snake avoidance training. Wayne meticulously explains how he uses live Western Diamondback rattlesnakes (safely defanged and secured) to create powerful learning experiences for dogs. Rather than relying on commands, this unique training approach creates direct associations between the snake's presence and a negative stimulus, teaching dogs to recognize and avoid danger through their natural senses of sight, smell, and hearing.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Wayne's candid discussion of emergency protocols. He outlines a comprehensive strategy for dealing with potential snake bites - from the importance of rattlesnake vaccines to maintaining calm during emergencies, and researching veterinary facilities before traveling to snake-prone hunting areas. His first-hand experience with a snake bite lends authenticity to his advice, offering listeners rare insights into proper response techniques.
Beyond the technical aspects, Wayne shares heartwarming stories of dogs whose lives were saved by his training methods. From retrievers refusing to pick up bumpers near hidden rattlesnakes to pets alerting their owners to dangerous serpents in yards and on trails, these real-world examples demonstrate the practical value of proper snake avoidance training.
Whether you're a dedicated hunter working dogs in snake country or simply a concerned pet owner living in an area where venomous snakes are present, this episode provides essential knowledge that could potentially save your dog's life. Tune in to learn from one of the most respected specialists in this critical but often overlooked aspect of canine safety and training.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters mo pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project with called pitney myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on curb records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harley, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation.
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Speaker 1:All right, welcome back to Gun Dog Nation. I'm talking to you today from Midland Texas and I'm with a guy that's going to have a very interesting podcast and I think it's so important that we're going to try to have this thing live tomorrow, which usually it takes four to five weeks to get them edited and all that stuff. But I think the time of year and the timing of this, mr Wayne, is real important. I'm going to let you cut loose here in a second, but I want you all to be, you know, introduced to a guy that might save your dog's life. Guarantee you he can help. Mr Wayne Lane, over in East Texas, southeast Texas, has been doing this for a long time. I'm going to let you tell you about what he does. We're going to get into this real deep and he's got a lot of information that's going to help you be a better gundog owner. He's been doing it for a long time and he came recommended to me from many people, not just one. Many people talked about Wayne to me and said, said, hey, this guy needs to be on your, on your show, and he needs to tell the people about you. Know what they can do to help maybe save their dog's lives. Wayne, tell us who you are.
Speaker 1:Well, my first name is wayne, my last name is lane I get a lot of ribbon about that because of the rhyme and uh uh. Well, I've been dog training professionally, for this is my 21 season and so right smack in the middle of the spring part of the 21st season doing this professionally, and so my specialty is to teach dogs to stay away from venomous snakes. That's what I do. Wayne, I got to ask you this. Listen, I'm a brave man. I jumped out of planes and army for a long time, but I hate snakes, can't stand them. How in the world did you get in this profession? Well, honestly, I was just like everybody else.
Speaker 1:I had my first well, not my first, my first experience with snake avoidance training because I had a Labrador and my cousin. We were going to South Texas. My cousin told me you need to train him for snakes, and I was so ignorant back then I said why would I train him to pick up snakes. He says no, you got to train him to stay away and I'd never heard of such a thing. So I went to a kennel over here in Katy, I paid my $30. And to me $30 was a ton of money back then and they ran the dog out to a snake. I didn't think the dog even saw the snake and he hit him with a collar. I was a little disappointed.
Speaker 1:So I told myself, man, I could do this better. And I asked him did it work? And he was kind of rude to me. He just said yeah, it worked. Next dog I said can we test it? No, next dog. And so I was a little mad. And be careful when you tell yourself I can do this better than he can, because you might grab a tiger by the tail and not be able to let it go.
Speaker 1:And that's where I'm at. I started, I got a snake. I did it myself, my dog, my cousin's dogs, my friend's dogs, and they said man, you need to hang your hat out and do it, for you know, do it for a living. And so I'm sitting on the place where my first kennel or first clinic was conducted man, you need to hang your hat out and do it for a living. And so I'm sitting on the place where my first kennel or first clinic was conducted. I had brisket on the pit, I had water, I had everything, and not one person showed up not one. And now I just stayed after it because I enjoyed doing it and I had a passion for it, it and I was good at it. And so I stayed at it and now I do.
Speaker 1:Well, at one time I was doing fifteen hundred dogs a year, and so it's kind of dropped off a little bit. Area gets saturated and I'm not traveling as much as I used to. You really got to travel a lot to do that many dogs. And so here I am. That's how I got into it. I got a little upset. Sometimes I look back and think did I really do the right thing? But I did, I did Well.
Speaker 1:I know that your name speaks for itself. And as far as Snaky Boy, it's training, if I ask anybody in any retriever club who to go to, they mention you. That's very well appreciated. I can tell you You're welcome and I mean that sincerely. I truly I wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. Wayne, what do you do? I mean, I've kind of did a backyard I shouldn't say this on the air but I've done a backyard snake avoidance train with the guy that I think knew what he was doing. He's a big hog hunter out here in Texas West Texas, you know but I've never been to a clinic. I'm going to go this year I'm actually going to yours and a Bryan college station. I would go see you. You're closer to me in Blanco, down there at Justin Drake's, but I'll be at my son's graduation on May the 10th.
Speaker 1:Walk me through how you teach a dog or snake avoidance training. What does it entail? Well, let's start with some misconceptions that a lot of people that haven't seen the training develop. The snake, there are three senses that I use they see it, hear it and smell it. That is all that's needed. The snake does not have to strike, the snake doesn't have to even move for this training to work. Quite well. And so I take a Western Diamondback Rattlesnake because it's legal to possess them in Texas with the proper licensing I clip the fangs to where they cannot inject venom into a dog and then I tape their mouth shut with surgical tape, because there are a lot of other teeth they are feeder teeth where they grab a mouse and they'll move their teeth like this and they're sharp.
Speaker 1:I know from firsthand experience a lot of times they can cut you pretty deep with those and, like I say, I found out the hard way lots of times. So that's why I tape them closed. I can't have a snake raking a dog's eye or raking his lip and cutting him. That would just be foolish on my part. And so I get them safe. Everybody can. I do it right in front of everybody, right at the clinic.
Speaker 1:And so I put the snake out. And once he gets into a defensive posture he won't go anywhere. He'll stay right there. And once he gets into a defensive posture, he won't go anywhere. He'll stay right there. And so I use a dog to a collar. I turn it all the way on high. Everybody asks me, everybody tells me my dog's sensitive, can you turn it down? Nope, can't do that. This is a different kind of training. We're not asking them to do a job. We're not even talking to the dog. We're not giving them any indication that we're involved in this whatsoever. And so I have a talk with my clients Don't coddle the dog when this is done. He could. It could be any kind of reaction, from a slight yelp to just an absolute meltdown, which is fine, the dog is fine, he's not hurt. Meltdown, which is fine, the dog is fine, he's not hurt. So once I get the dog, I put the owner upwind on the other side of the snake. That way the dog wants to go to the owner. It's really easy to get him to go that way.
Speaker 1:And when he gets one of the three senses, if he sees it, he's going to drop his head and try to incorporate the smell and usually the snake will move a little bit. Sometimes he hits the dog in the face and when he does hit that dog in the face, I will be on both barrels of that transmitter. I'm going to light him on fire. And they are so one-dimensional when they see this. They are so fixated on that snake, on that snake when I introduced that electricity, and it's so much higher than a retriever training setting they can't think of anything else in the world. They're one-dimensional. That's what did it to me, that snake did this to me, and so they associate that with the snake I just did a dog, I just got.
Speaker 1:I was a little late getting on your podcast because I just got through with it. I do private sessions here. I was a little late getting on your podcast because I just got through. I do private sessions here. And when he brought him out I said this is going to take 10 seconds. The guy says what do you mean? I said that black Labrador, go get her. He's working on a Master Nationals title. I said that dog is going to pile right up in that. As soon as he sees it he's going to put his nose on it. It's the 20-month-old Labrador, never seen a snake before and just like clockwork I jammed him good, so he saw it and actually pulled the lead to get to it and he put his nose on that snake like this. About the time I was jamming them buttons, that snake punched him right in the face. Rattling stood up and that dog was 1,000% convinced. He ran behind me to the end of the lead and would not come out from behind me had the owner call the dog and the dog went probably 30 yards in a big circle back to the owner and you couldn't throw that dog after that one session. You couldn't pick that dog up and throw him on that snake. He'd sprout wings and fly. So that's pretty much what we do is let them get in there and get on them and introduce that electricity at a critical time. You don't do it If your timing's off. You're going to suffer, the dog's going to suffer.
Speaker 1:Training, wayne, something I've always wondered. Maybe it's a stupid question, but you know, like at my ranch it's high fence and I shed hunt a lot because I've got axes and stuff and I do it year round because axes and other animals shed. You know different times of year and other animals shed. You know different times of year and I walk with my dogs. Do you think if a dog's been trained that way that he and I are out walking on the ranch or out in the woods or wherever that it can, you know, smell that and let me know if there's a snake around? Do you find that that's what happens, or is every dog different A lot? The dogs that go through the training that take it well, owners will see the dog do something abnormal and sometimes they snap to it hey, there's a snake over there, and sometimes they don't.
Speaker 1:I would direct you to my website. There's a video on there of a guy that I interviewed at one of my clinics. He brought his friend and he came over to me man, this training works. I said I know. I said I know it works, that's why I do it. He said I was, and this is a really highly trained dog. This dog doesn't refuse commands. You know this dog, this guy's walking this dog without a lead and he's not coming off heel.
Speaker 1:And he said I was in the National Forest and I was throwing a bumper and my dog was running. We were having fun, it was playtime, it wasn't really work time. And he said my dog just stopped. And he came back to me without the bumper. So I've sent him. Now we're getting. Now. He said I was getting into a work mode because the dog's refusing to pick it up. That was what his mindset was. And the dog got over and stopped. He's trying to command and push him to. He knew where the bumper was. He couldn't see it and he's trying to push the dog. And the dog just melted, just had an absolute meltdown. So he thought, well, I'm going to get out of this training mode because it's not working. And he walked over there. That bumper was about that, far from about a six-and-a-half-foot timber rattling Jeez.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's a picture on my website but I know the interview's on there and you know, and I get that time and time again, people call me on the phone and I love it, I never get tired of it. They say, man, your training works. Thank you so much, you saved my dog. That is probably the highlight of my career. Every time I hear that, yeah, wayne, how many times, let's just say in a month, as many of these you've done? As many years you've been doing this? As many dogs that are out there that's been trained, how many times a month do you feel like you? You get calls like that my best month, and it's usually right around dove season, because everybody you know they get it done and they. Can. I interrupt this for a second? Yes, sir, can we? Yes, I thought I put it on. Do not disturb. Can you see that text that popped up? No, sir, I can't. Okay, good, because what my cousin was telling me? I ain't going on this video, but you know I cannot see it. So, yeah, you're good. Okay, I think I had as many as 20 in like a dove season.
Speaker 1:You know where I got emails, texts, phone calls, people just praising the training, and I just tell them man. Man spread the word. It's the gospel for dog training. If you're a hunter dog in south texas, you better get it done, and so it really makes me feel good that I get that much feedback. Not many people in their job get that kind of positive feedback. And you know, it's my profession, it's what I do for a living, it's how I make my living, but that's not what it's all about. It's not at all what it's my profession. It's what I do for a living, it's how I make my living, but that's not what it's all about. It's not at all what it's all about. I mean, we only have one chance through this world, and if you just got a job where you're just putting a stack a on stack b and you don't get any feedback like that man, you've missed your mark in life.
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Speaker 1:But you know, I can see, you know honestly, wayne, when I'm I'm from kentucky, so I've been out here 13 years when I, when I moved out here, I didn't realize people got tore up about dove hunting in eastern kentucky. I don't know that that was even a thing. Here it is and I'm hooked on it myself. It's a good way to work your labs too. But but I'm in West Texas and it's, you know, everything out here a stingy stiff, you know, poke you, it's thorns or or bite you. And I can see dove season being real dangerous, absolutely Dove season and even duck season, a weird anomaly that I wanted to point out to you. On the texas coast we rarely down on the beach. You know that far down rarely do we get snow and I had one year and I had eight people tell me they ran across rattlesnake snowed and I guess it like it was a surprise front and I guess it locked them out of their dens and they just coiled up and sat there and they said, man, they ran across rattlesnake after rattlesnake. It was an odd deal. So it's not just duck season, it can be right in the middle of duck season.
Speaker 1:You know, wayne, I was actually down around the Balmaray area. I made friends with a guy on a very large ranch in that area and I'd go out there and hunt and run my dogs and stuff. Anyway, they told me and these guys are generations of ranchers in that area of West Texas that they've seen rattlesnakes in as cold of temperatures as 35 degrees, 40 degrees. They said they might not be moving real slick, but they're there and they can. Yeah, they can still bite. They may not move too good, but and bite yeah. Well, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So how many dogs right now are you training a year? Do you? Do? You do you think? Yeah, at one point I was doing 1,500 a year, but that requires a tremendous amount of travel. I'm at the end of my career. I'm a police officer, right? Yes, sir, where do you practice that? Sugar Land, okay, all right.
Speaker 1:And so at one point, when I had all my schedule full, I was traveling to Louisiana. I won't go to New Mexico or Colorado, I just regulate. And let me tell you something Texas and Louisiana are different. Well, new Mexico just said you ain't coming out here, just like that. We don't want you Texas boys with't coming out here, just like that. We don't want you, texas boys, with your snakes out here. You're not getting a permit. Colorado, the regulations are so thick you have a whole protocol book that you have to take each snake to a vet, have them certified as healthy and I don't mean communicable diseases, I'm talking about fed well and not going to die. You're trying to help save dogs' lives. To them the snake's lives are more important than the dogs'. It's funny. Well, I had a 400 dog clinic up there. That's a lot of dogs and I read those regulations and I talked to the. Well, I'll tell you a funny story about the state warden's permitting.
Speaker 1:I was talking to the lady and she tried to trick me. She asked me while we were talking. She asked a little bit about my protocol and what I was doing, told me about what they needed and she said what kind of staples do you use to staple that mouth? Closed on that rattlesnake and I knew it was a trap right away. I knew she was fishing and I said well, I don't use staples because I don't want to pierce the mouth of the snake, it can get diseased. She said good, you can continue to apply. I knew right. I said, told myself right, then I'll finish this conversation, I'll be a gentleman. And I gave that clinic to another trainer. I said you want it, you can have it. You go on up there. And the game wardens came in there, checked him top to bottom, threatened to put him in jail. Just ridiculous. You know there's 400 dogs that could be saved because he has five or six rattlesnakes. Yeah, I just said I'm not doing it. So I quit all the big long.
Speaker 1:I used to have a 40-foot bus, a Silver Eagle bus. I was going to do a West Coast tour all the way up to Wyoming and South after retirement. No way I'm staying right here in Texas. So the funny part of this story is I had a gun club over a hunting club over in Louisiana. Call me. We want you to come over and train our dogs. I said sure. So I called the state. Yeah, I was real friendly on the phone. I said I need a permit to bring rattlesnakes over. I'm going to do the training and you can hear him on a computer asking me questions, my name et cetera. And so about three minutes into the conversation I said how long is it going to take to get a permit? He said about a minute ago. I said what are you talking about? He said check your email. I sent you a permit already.
Speaker 1:The following year they call me on the phone and says, hey, do you want to renew your permit? I said sure. So they sent it to me in a mail. The third year they just sent it to me. They didn't even call, they just sent me the permit. That's really that you brought this up.
Speaker 1:So I've got to give it a plug too. I'm I'm not a native texan, I'm a native kentuckian. I've been here 13 years. But the great state louisiana. I got a hunting license there this year and it was the second time I'd done it. But this year I just so happened I was going duck hunting the last weekend or the last two days of the season.
Speaker 1:Long story short, I call the main office, I guess in baton rouge, and hey, you know, do y'all have any deals for like? Oh sorry, let me. Let me plug up real quick from computer goes off. I thought I had a plug. So anyway, I asked them if they had a rate for disabled veterans and I was talking to the main office. He said oh, sir, you're free. And I said really, no state does that for out-of-state residents Like Texas does it for in-state residents, and I'm very grateful for that. Kentucky, you've got to pay a little bit, but Texas is the best state to veterans. Amen, amen, brother. And I mean, they treat us right and that's why I still still stay here. I've been here 13 years. It's not even my home, but so I.
Speaker 1:I asked him. I said can I? I see on your website you've got a lifetime license, can I? Is there a way to buy that, you know? And he said you are free for life. I like it. I said, sir, I'm out of state, you know, I'm a tech. He said no, that that's what I know. He said disabled veteran, if you're over service agent, you're free for life. And he said all you have to do? He said we'll give you an email notification and you just renew each year, but you don't pay a dime the rest of your life. I thought, man, nobody does that for out-of-state residents. Yes, so I'm a huge Louisiana fan now, me too, me too. So you like it too? Oh, hell, yeah. Plus, when I got back to their clubhouse they had about a 1,500 acre compound and it was nice to train at.
Speaker 1:When I got back to the headquarters they had a big old black iron pot full of jambalaya that they made right then and there and they said you're our guest, you go first. I said what about all these ladies? And all the ladies said, sir, you're our guest, get in there. And I didn't care, I was hungry. So, because I got up in the morning, drove all the way to Baton Rouge and so that's a long way, yes, hungry. And everybody went through the line and I said you know what, I don't care if they think I'm a pig or not. I said I want another plate and they said come on in here. I got that big paddle stuck in there and filled my plate up Best jambalaya ever. Oh man, you're making me hungry now.
Speaker 1:Well, you and I share some similarities, for sure. I love to eat and that's one of the other things I like about Louisiana is eating. Well, if you could, I got a little. If you look right here, I got a little bit of eating problem myself. Oh, I won't. I won't poke fun of you Cause I got no right talk. That's why I'm sitting with my chest below the picture. I don't want to.
Speaker 1:I don't have that wide angle view when you, when you train these dogs, wayne, do. I'm sure every breed is different, right, just like people, and I'm sure these dogs react differently. Are there dogs that just and I'm not even talking about breeds that just don't get it, that just go crazy? Yeah, you're going to get me in trouble right now. German Shepherds they're tough to do. Bird dogs you know your pointers. They're pretty tough to do Because it's hard. They just go absolutely crazy when you hit that button and so it's really hard to see the effectiveness of what happened it make. You have to make sure they're not just freaked out because of the collar. You have to make sure that that transition went from the snake to that dog's brain. And so I do bird dogs.
Speaker 1:I would prefer if, instead of saying a negative about a breed, I prefer the Veselas number one. They are so super easy. As soon as you touch that button, you're done. Yeah, nine-month-old Labrador same way. As soon as you touch those buttons, they're like oh, I get it, we're done.
Speaker 1:But pets are the worst Pets that aren't. Well, let's take Austin. I was up in Austin three weeks ago I think we only did two or three retrievers. Austin is exploding north and west. I was in Leander. People move here from Minnesota, jersey, and they're like, what do you mean? We got rattlesnakes in our yard and people tell them you better get your dog trained. So they come to that clinic in droves. I want to say we did 150 three weeks ago and so it's the pets that they just freak out with that collar and so it's very difficult usually on the pets. I'll turn it down a little bit to where I can get multiple corrections and to that way I can get them back on the snake and make sure that they're avoiding the snake and not just freaking out from the collar. Right, okay, yeah, so so you're making sure they make the association. Yes, oh, yeah, that's my job.
Speaker 1:And what do you look for? I know you know what you're doing. I'm just trying to pick your brain. Sure, what do you look for in a dog? To say, okay, the light bulb turned on. That dog knows why it got shocked.
Speaker 1:Yes, what do you see? Well, first, I'm a perfect stranger to that dog. There's no reason he would cower to me, come to me for help. So usually I know it's starting to work when they come and run behind me and they'll look around my legs at the snake. That's telling me he's concerned about the snake but he's also concerned about his safety. That's a really good indicator. You know, at the end of the test or at the end of the training we do a test, I'll put the owner on the other side of the snake, usually upwind, have them call the dog and it doesn't give a wide berth or a wide enough berth. Uh, then I'll continue to work on the dog If it gives a real good birth. You know, going around it I'll watch their eyes, if you can see my eyes on the camera. If the snake is out off to say his left, oftentimes they'll just look like that as they're going by it just to spot, check where that snake hits. All of these little indicators are telling me the transition went from the snake to that dog's head and he's concerned about that snake. Those are some things that I'm looking for.
Speaker 1:Do you think that these dogs benefit even more from repeat training, avoidance training? Should they come back for refreshers? I want them back every year and when I tell my client I tell every client this bring that dog back to me every year. Don't tell me what you're doing, but you just watch your dog's reaction. So when a dog I know a dog is trained, I can see the anxiety, the body language of anxiety. Their butt will be dropped down, their tail tucked under, heaving in their chest from anxiety, breathing tongues hanging out, dripping with slobber and just some of them shaking. And so I tell them these are all the signs of a trained dog. You bring your dog back to me. You don't even have to tell me what you're doing, but you watch for these signs. And if that dog, if we walk out there and the first clue of a snake see here and smell it, if that dog busts off into that state of anxiety again, let me finish the training. But then you can start skipping years. And so you want to finish the training because you can't get a dog close to a snake without something detrimental. Now you're going backwards in training. So I tell them let me finish the training, get it again. But then next year you can probably skip a year and then come back two years later. Okay, just keeping it fresh, just like training a dog, right? Yes, we don't just train a dog once and quit. Right, we want to keep training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's an example that I always use with my clients too, and I don't know the answer. I had a yellow male hard-headed best hunting retriever I ever had, but the most hard-headed dog I've ever known and a black female, both Labradors. I did the black female when she was two years old. I was headed to South Texas so I tuned her up and the day she died on her 16th year you couldn't pick her up and throw her on a snake. She was going to sprout wings and she never had to do it again. The yellow male I live on the San Bernard River, so there's snakes out here everywhere, water moccasins Dang, and so every six months I'd see him walking across the yard and he'd find a moccasin and start chicken necking with it, and so I knew it's time to do him again and I'd tune him up and hell, he wouldn't even step over a water hose right after getting him tuned up. But six months later he's right back to being a dog.
Speaker 1:You know I can't train the DNA out of them. I can only alter their behavior for a little while. That's what I try to tell my clients. I can only alter their behavior for a little while is what I try to tell my clients, wayne, the reason I ask that. You know, I'm on a ranch too and I'll never forget two years ago I had all my dogs got into porcupines.
Speaker 1:It was breeding season for porcupines, oh, and I remember going to the vet there Menard she's a lady, she's just a country ranch vet, you know said well, thank god, I don't want to do this anymore. She looked at me, you know, kind of like I was crazy. She said what do you mean? I said, well, them dogs sure ain't gonna go back into the daggone porcupine again. She said, oh, they'll be worse. And and and she was right. And a week later the same dogs got eat up. I mean, they had them in their gums of their mouth and up in the roof of their mouth, in their eyelids. You know, you take two or three out and the dogs ready to eat you up. You've got to sedate them and then give them antibiotics.
Speaker 1:But anyway, my point is some dogs. You know, I just assumed that if a dog got shot up with porcupine quills it would never touch it again, but it did. They did Almost out of anger, I guess I don't know I'm not a psychologist. So do you find dogs that do that? For snakes? No, and a lot of people tell me well, my dog got bit, he probably knows. No, he doesn't. No, and a lot of people tell me well, my dog got bit, he probably knows. No, he doesn't, because, and I can tell you this from firsthand experience when you get hit by a snake, you don't feel it until about 20, 30 seconds. You start feeling that You'll start feeling a burn, maybe three, four, five minutes into it you're gonna feel the pain. No way that dog can associate that pain with that snake, no way. And so the delay, the delay, yeah, yes, and so yeah, and a lot of even snake bit, yeah, um, I've been hit with a fang once and it was stupid of me and it's because I was running my mouth talking to a client and I was holding the snake.
Speaker 1:Well, let me try to give you an example. I was holding the snake like this instead of like this, like I'm supposed to. I just had him around the neck, like with my fist you can see where my thumb is and so it was out of his way and the thumb here was supporting the head where he could not get me, but I was talking and I relaxed my thumb like that just one second and I saw him put that thing on my thumbnail. You know, he hit it like that and I was telling my brain was telling my thumb move, move, move. And by that time he buried it right there next to my thumb. And so I don't know you may have to edit this out. This isn't medical advice. I'm just telling people what I did.
Speaker 1:And so my client first thing I had to do I said a bad word. My client said what? And he go. I said I just got hit. And he says what do you mean? I said I just got bit and he freaked out. He's jumping up and down, straight up and down, and all he could say was oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, just like 10 times. I said Mr, you got to chill, You're going to get me worked up. I need you to. You don't need that blood pumping too fast. I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1:So I grabbed my thumb like this and I just started squeezing and the first stuff that came out was that amber venom and then it started turning to blood and venom and I just kept squeezing it squeezing it. I called my wife, told her bring me some alcohol down here. I got hit. She's nah, she's freaking out. I said just bring the alcohol and some paper towels. So I kept squeezing it for about 30 minutes until I got nothing but blood. And a lot of blood came out and about 30 minutes later the pain quit.
Speaker 1:I never went to the hospital. That's not medical advice. I want everybody to know that that is just what happened. And so I never did go to the doctor. Yeah, I said if it swells up I'll go, but I'm gonna tell you right now it hurt like you hit it with a hammer. I've heard that I actually got put in the hospital.
Speaker 1:The guy had your kentucky, when I was a senior in high school, got bit the copperhead. He talked about the pain you know. After him in the arm, his arm swelled up real bad. Yeah, of course he was okay, but the pain I remember him talking about that, yep, yep. So I hate that and I got bit. I was hoping I'd go 30 years and never be able to say that. But it only takes a second. It's just stupid. Just talking, running my mouth, not paying attention. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hello.
Speaker 1:This is Kenneth Witt and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply. Based in Alabama, retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leashes are, and they source them locally. They have anything you want. Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply. That's a do you? Well, before I forget this, because I'm not done, obviously.
Speaker 1:But if people want to get in one of your clinics, wayne, where do they find you? How much does it cost? Tell everybody what to do, where to go. Well, some of the clinics are the cost. Most of my clinics is $100 a dog. Some of them have moved to $125. That's their deal. They charge what they charge, but here I do private sessions. If I come to your home for a private session, of course I'll adjust the price, but here it's $100 a dog. Most of my clinics is $100 a dog. Okay, and they can reach me at snakebreakercom that's my website.
Speaker 1:Be careful what you name your company. When you're young, it's going to stick with you and you can't get rid of it. Snakebreaker, that's a dumb name but I can't get rid of it now. Everybody knows it. So now, do you own your clinics or or private training? Do you do more than one snake? Do you use water moccasins, copperheads and rattlesnakes? Or how do you do that? I use the three worrisome, venomous snakes in Texas. And what are those? Water moccasin, copperhead and rattlesnake. I use Western Diamondback. It was illegal up to last year to possess a timber rattler. Now you can. It's off the federal list of protection, but I just haven't been able to find one and so I will incorporate that later.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you suggest a dog be a certain age before it comes to your clinic? Yes, the big thing. I say choose your detriment. So you being a rancher in West Texas and you've got a little four-month-old puppy and he's running around and there's snakes everywhere, then let's get it done. I like them to be six months old or older. But there again, are we going to not do the training? You know we can take it easy on a young, young pup. Get it done, get him headed in the right direction and, you know, build the foundation. Or are we going to wait for that steadfast six month mark. No, let's get it done If it's. If it's necessary, let's get it. Okay, do you? If a dog has I don't know thyroid issues, is on thyroid medication or some other medication? You know, I've actually seen diabetic dogs.
Speaker 1:Are there dogs that you don't want to, for health reasons, to come to your clinic? Yes, if I see an old dog, I'm gonna talk to them about it. I'm gonna ask them is it really necessary you know 12, 13 year old Labrador sitting on the porch Is it really necessary we do this? If I ask them about hips and elbows, you know how are those. I ask them medical questions.
Speaker 1:And I've had dogs come that are in bad shape. You know, stitched from head to toe. You know why are we doing this? And I've turned dogs down. If I don't think that's the right thing to do, I'm going to turn the dog down. I'm going to say, hey, get him healed, or let's just not do it. It's too old a dog, let's just not do it. So, too old a dog, let's just not do it. Now, wayne, I'm going to get a little controversial. I think you and I may share the same thoughts.
Speaker 1:But snake vaccine, rattlesnake vaccine, what's your thoughts? I'm a believer. Okay, tell us why. Well, I have yet to run into a vaccinated dog owner who told me they lost a dog even after the rattlesnake vaccine. That is not scientific. Can we stop one second? Yes, sir, go lay down, this dog has been on my ass the whole time. I'm sorry you can edit that out right? Yes, we can. Can you hear her? No, I can't, not at all. No, and I've. I hear you. Yeah, she's right there. And so, yeah, the vaccine. I have yet to run into a person tell me they lost their dog to a rattlesnake bite when vaccinated.
Speaker 1:And I've been doing this a long time. Red Rock Laboratories has been out for a very long time. They used to I used to administer the vaccine. Then they made it illegal. I couldn't do it anymore. It had to be done by a vet, and so they were also one of my sponsors.
Speaker 1:I had a. If you look on my website, there's an after bite care instructions. It's one of the little windows. It's one of the little windows and I had written a book. It's a booklet. I had it Hunter Orange. It could fit in your pocket, it could fit in your hunting bag, and everybody that went through my clinics was to get a book and I paid a ton of money for that. I had boxes of them. Well, harvey came along, hurricane Harvey, and flooded my property and it flooded the car that I had those books in. So I didn't get a chance to get those books to many people. And so when I redeveloped my website, I put that after bike care instructions and I did all the research.
Speaker 1:In Texas I had a regional map in the book. You look up your number on your say you're going to menard, texas, of all places. You find say it was region eight. Flip the page to region eight and there was a list of bite veterinarians that had anti-venom to take care of bites after the fact. So now you got a plan I'm going to Menard to go hunting. I got my little book. You can call ahead, find out if they're 24 hours, you can do everything you needed to do, and that was developed. I can't tell you how many times I heard guys tell me I'm getting my dog trained. He got bit man.
Speaker 1:We loaded that dog up in the truck. We were driving a hundred miles an hour, didn't have any internet, we didn't know where we're going, but we're going somewhere and now the dog's amped up, the people are amped up, they're driving, they're going to have a wreck. And so that's what developed my mind into thinking you know, cool wins the race. You know, if you're a police officer and you're responding to a call but you're driving too fast and you wreck the car, you ain't going to help your partner. You done made it worse for your partner because now you got nobody coming to help him and now you need help.
Speaker 1:Same concept you want to help that dog. You be calm, cool and collected. Get him inside the truck, don't put him in the back. Get him in the air conditioner. Be calm, know your plan, implement your plan and execute it. Wayne, I love that. So let's, I'm gonna ask your advice.
Speaker 1:So let's just say you know, I didn't know this. I've been hunting the dakotas a little bit. Now I've got into hunting and I've learned that in western south Dakota there's actually rattlesnakes and it's very snaky if you're grouse hunting. So if you were me or you're telling our listeners and say, hey, I decided I'm going to go to some town I don't know a town's name in western South Dakota to say grouse hunt, we know it's still early in the year. Still got to talk to her in September and October and we know there's rattlesnakes there.
Speaker 1:What would I do to do everything to protect my dog? Before I go, I say get the training to try and avoid a bite, get the vaccine in case of a bite. And before you go to quick Google search, find the city you're going to be near, call some vets and say, hey, do you have 24 hour bike care? Get their location, write it down, put it in your phone, whatever you got, put it in your wallet, whatever you got to do. And so your dog gets bit me. I'm going to dump alcohol on the bite site. Just pour it on there. Don't worry about, don't rub it, don't do any of that. Just pour alcohol on the bite site. Get the dog in the air conditioner and let's drive the speed limit. Let's, if you have phone service, call that vet, say, hey, I got a bit dog I'm coming in. Uh, they'll have everything. Dog will go right in and they can start work. They'll start checking the blood gases and see do we need to hit this dog with antivenin or do we just hit this dog with massive steroids and combat the venom that way? Okay, that's your plan. I like that, wayne. So you're suggesting do a little research on where you're going? That's your plan. I like that, wayne. So you're suggesting do a little research on where you're going, find out the vets in that area, yes, and see what they've got on hand. Yes, I like that. Yes.
Speaker 1:Now you said something and I know this might be a dumb question, but you said turn that air conditioner on. Why? Well, I've heard guys put their dogs in a kennel in the back. You know, you're dove hunting in South Texas. It's 105 degrees. That dog is not going to be first-hand experience. He is not going to be feeling that 105. He's going to be vomiting. It's going to make him nauseous and sick. Get him in the truck, lay him down on the seat, keep him cool, calm, cool and collected. Okay, yes, keep him cool, calm, cool and collected. Yes, just think about it. You were a military guy, right? Yes, sir, you see guys in combat Back in the day. They throw them up on a jeep, on a stretcher, bouncing them around getting to the doctor or getting to a medic. That could not have been pleasant, not in the least. And so no different than the dog. He's going to get sick. If he gets a good, full envenomation. He's going to be nauseous, as he can be. Keep him cool, get him in the car. If you have to dump water on him, you know. Just keep him nice, comfortable and cool and get there.
Speaker 1:Do you feel that it's more beneficial? Well, I know you offer clinics at different times year and I don't know if there's a strategy to that and but do you feel it's more beneficial to do it just prior to hunting season than it would be to say, do it eight or nine months before hunting season, mostly in the spring? I'm doing pets because you look on the news and it's it's kind of funny. Every year the news reports it's going to be a banner year for snakes. Every year they say the same thing. I've been seeing it this year actually. Yes.
Speaker 1:And so the pet people. They start looking. They're out walking the trails and their dog runs across the lake. They find me to get it done. You're avid hunters. Dove season's coming in late September, august. They want to get it done.
Speaker 1:One of my biggest clinics is Best Retrievers. They have the last Saturday before dove season. That's a big one. They do it because they come out there. They have a good time. People eat barbecue. They have all kinds of clinics going. They get their dog it's a dove, tune-up is what it is and so they get their dog done, they see the vet, get their vaccine and most guys leave from there and they're going hunting. They're leaving right then and there going to the deer lakes or the dove lakes, wherever.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just let the listeners know you're talking about roadie best over in page, texas, and he does know how to do it, right, don't? He's got a beautiful place too? Well, all my clients are good people, yes, they have facilities, but I'm gonna tell you, roadie best it, pardon the cliche, he's got it going on. That's the best kennel I believe out there. Yeah, they, uh, they run a fine. Well, the first time I went there, uh, I pulled up, opened my door and there's somebody standing there in uniform. Sir, how can we help you? They run a fine, fine operation. I agree, I agree, he's been on my podcast and I share the same sentiment you do.
Speaker 1:But, yes, so let's also clear up something. Wayne, I'm a hunting dog guy. You're a hunting dog guy. A lot of the dudes that you and I know just mutually, like justin, drake and roadie best, we're all hunting dog guys. What? What's your advice and we know this is needed because we're in the woods where snakes are. But your training doesn't just benefit hunting dogs, right? Oh no, it's it. Pet any dog that's going to be near a snake or out and just poking around.
Speaker 1:If there are snakes in the area, you better get it done. And if you're in Texas, you got snakes in the area. You have snakes in your yard, the parks, the lakes. Oh yeah, I find them. I don't pick up anything. I got two barns I'm looking at right now and I don't pick up anything. I got two barns I'm looking at right now and I don't pick up a thing. They're 50 yards off the San Bernard River. I don't go in there and pick anything up without taking something long and lifting it up and looking first. I got experience. If it's something metal on the ground, I take a hole or whatever I can find. Actually, I've got a meat cooler on my ranch, a walk-in cooler, but I don't run it, unless I've got hunters, sure, and I can open that up about any time of the year, that walk-in cooler. I keep the electric off.
Speaker 1:Yes and son, there's a snake Every round. There's a snake in there. I hate snakes, son, I don't blame you either. You got experience. Yeah, man, they lit me up first time I walked in there. Yeah, and you know I'm from eastern Kentucky. We have rattlesnakes and copperheads. Copperheads are more prevalent. We see rattlesnakes, don't get me wrong. But man, West Texas is the most snake-infested place I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it's crazy. It ain't just West Texas, I'm sure South Texas, east Texas, but it's different here. It's different. Well, south Texas definitely has their share. Freer, oh God. Yeah, it's snaky.
Speaker 1:So now, believe it or not, I call it Snowmageddon. About six or seven years ago, all the ranches were losing their deer to that snowstorm we had. Yeah, yeah, well, I had that one we had in 21. I lost 40-some animals. Okay, that one I call it snowmageddon. Snowmageddon, yes, sir, I was right there. Well, that put a huge thwackacking on the rattlesnake population. It still hasn't recovered, not fully.
Speaker 1:And so, as a result of that snowstorm, I'm paying three times what I used to pay for a rattlesnake Because China's buying them. They're paying stupid rates for rattlesnakes. It's gotten out of hand. Yes, you know, you just educated me because my ranch was hit. You know, I lost 33 black bucks, six axis does in that. You know my everything. I have froze up and busted. Three water wells destroyed, yes, busted.
Speaker 1:But now that you say that I used to kill rattlesnakes pretty regular to ranch and you know, I don't see, I bet I don't see one a year now, I never thought about that. I wonder what. But you're right, it had an effect on it, didn't it? Oh, I have one fella, his grandmother's ranch house. The house is kind of they don't use it anymore, it's so far gone. But the basement in it was a rattlesnake den. Because it's been so long and he hasn't found a rattlesnake in there and it was every year he could produce snakes for me to use and he hasn't had one in there since, since it's an Omegaddon. So I talked to.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a very famous rattlesnake handler, jackie Beebe. If you Google Jackie Beebe he's going to pop up. Holds lots of world records for rattlesnakes and he's telling me the same thing All the dens they're just slowly starting to recover, but it's put a really big damper on the amount of snakes I can obtain every year. Now, why China? Why are they buying snakes? They eat them. They eat everything. I don't know if they think it's an aphrodisiac or what, but they buy them. They buy as many as they can get their hands on.
Speaker 1:I did not know that. I didn't know it either until Jackie told me. But you know, I see people I used to have Ranch and Coleman and my neighbor trapped wild hogs and he would sell them at an auction and I was told that those hogs went overseas. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it at all. Yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So again, let's just so everybody can know, wayne, I think what you do is is a is a huge service to gun dog owners and dog on, not just gun dog to dog owners, period. Uh, I think you, I think you have individually saved a lot of the dog's lives by what you do and I'm thankful for it. Uh, I've wanted you on here for a while, soon as Kelly Curry mentioned it. Uh, and, and why I'm on that point? I have listeners, wayne, that message me with ideas for a show and, and I'm I'm all about it. I mean Wayne that message me with ideas for a show and I'm all about it. I mean, listen, I'm not a know-it-all and I love hearing people give recommendations and you were recommended.
Speaker 1:I just got a recommendation from a guy in South Florida that heard my podcast that told me to get the. He's called the Python Cowboy, but he trains German shorthairs to hunt pythons down in Everglades. You know they get a bounty on them, sure, because they're all over. So I'm trying to get that guy on here, if he's listening, uh, but I might have called his his publicist or whatever to get him on here, but you know. So I listen to people and I've got a lot of people wanting you on here and I went ahead this week and said, hey, come in soon, I'm going to have a snake avoidance trainer on my podcast and you wouldn't believe the feedback.
Speaker 1:Really. Yes, sir, I mean hey, you know, what you do is a, is a service and it's a. It saves lives, and not just dogs lives. If my dog, you know, acts crazy because he smells a snake and keeps me from getting bit, he saved us both, you know. So, no, I think you're doing something great, I believe in it and I will be at your clinic this year. I would be at one down there at Justin Drake's but I, my son's graduating college and I have to miss that weekend, but I'll be at the one at college station. Well, I'll be looking forward to meet you in person and I really appreciate you having me on your podcast. I do no listen. It's a privilege and I'm so thankful Any anything that you can think of that I might ask you that you want dog owners to know.
Speaker 1:Yes, give me some advice that you would give just an average dog owner to protect their dog. I give this advice to every one of them. I always try to give an example. You and I speak English. We understand each other perfectly well. We could fly down to the King Ranch, go quail hunting. We could discuss it.
Speaker 1:Hey, there's a lot of snakes out here, be careful, and one of us can still get a bite. This training will not 100% stop your dog from getting bit. You're training to try and avoid a bite. If they keep up with the training and the dog gets an indicator, most likely he is going to back off that snake faster than that snake can bite him. But it can still happen, and so I try to make every customer that comes to my clinic realize we're trying to avoid a bite. We're not guaranteeing we can avoid a bite. I've never had anybody come back because dogs get bit. Dogs that I've trained get bit. Is my internet going out Just for a second right then, but it's been good up so far, okay. Okay, dogs that I train get bit and I have people call me.
Speaker 1:I had one fellow out of 21 years call me and he was mad as hell. It's the one dog that I could not teach. I didn't charge him. He came by here. He was headed to Freer. He stopped by here on the way down to the deer lease at Freer, texas, and so I couldn't get the dog to finish out. So I told him don't let this dog out of your sight in Freer Texas.
Speaker 1:Well, I heard he was bashing me on some forums. So I went and looked and I'm not about to get on a forum and argue with anybody. That's why I called him. It's useless. Yes, oh, it's useless. And so I called him. I said tell me what happened. He says, well, we got down there and we didn't go hunting. And so at 10 o'clock at night I let the dog out in the yard and went right straight across. Hey, everybody, we were just ending that recording with Wayne Lane, who is a snake avoidance trainer. He had some internet difficulties but we were pretty much through. So that resolves everything that we had. I hope you all enjoyed that. I sure did. That resolves everything that we had. I hope y'all enjoyed that. I sure did. You know it's something that we can all do as gundog owners and pet owners, dog owners, whatever to maybe save our dogs' lives and maybe even save our own lives. So I hope y'all enjoyed that. It was a pleasure for me to bring him on and thank you for listening.
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