Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Gundog Nation #025: Think Twice Retrievers - Breeding, Training, Judging in Europe
Ever wondered what separates championship gun dogs from the rest? Kenneth Witt sits down with Pieter Vivijs and Laura Lazzaretto, Belgian retriever experts with decades of experience breeding, training, and judging at the highest levels of European competition, including the prestigious International Gundog League (IGL).
This fascinating conversation reveals striking differences between European and American approaches to training and competitions. Laura shares her 25-year journey breeding golden retrievers, transitioning from show lines to working dogs that compete at elite levels. The couple's expertise is evident as they explain how European field trials differ from American events, with continental competitions divided between working tests (using dummies) and field trials (during actual shooting days with real game).
What truly sets this episode apart is their refreshingly straightforward training philosophy. While many trainers rely on treats and clickers, Pieter and Laura have achieved international championships using only verbal praise: "Good boy, good girl, that's it." They argue that treats often become bribes rather than rewards, emphasizing that proper timing and connection with your dog matter infinitely more than training gadgets.
Perhaps the most valuable insight comes when discussing what they look for in puppies. Laura identifies "ability to recover" as her top priority – a dog's willingness to try again after making mistakes rather than shutting down. This quality, combined with trainability and connection to the handler, creates the foundation for both championship competitors and excellent family hunting companions.
Whether you're a seasoned trainer or just starting with your first retriever, this transatlantic perspective offers valuable lessons applicable to any training program. The episode concludes with a thoughtful comparison between golden retrievers and Labradors, emphasizing their belief that "a good dog never has the wrong breed or color." Visit www.thinktwicegoldenretriever.be to learn more about their program and follow their competition journey.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters Mo Pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project called Pitney Myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on Curb Records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock. Originally from Harlan, kentucky, just across the mountain from me, he did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training the retriever. Cornerstone gundog academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone would be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next and what to do when problems arise. Visit cornerstone gundog academycom to learn how you can train your retriever. I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshened back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of cornerstone gundog academy since 2016 and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I've used it, it's proven and tried and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Gundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Hello and welcome back to Gundog Nation.
Speaker 1:I am very excited to have guests on today from overseas. This is just. I've only had a couple guests from overseas and this one's the first one. In Belgium, peter and I have.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to try to pronounce his last name. I'll let him do that because I don't want to make a huge mistake, but he and I have a mutual friend here in the States who's also a Belgium native, I guess Yoris, and I won't pronounce his last name because I'll butcher that too, but Yoris saw that I was in England, I guess on Facebook, and I was at a field trial, the International Gun Dog League field trial, the IGL and what was so ironic is Peter was there too, and so yours connected us while we were there and it was nice, you know, because I didn't really know a whole lot of people and I picked up a new friend and we've stayed in touch. But I'm going to let he and his wife, laura, introduce themselves, tell you where they're live from today, and even though this will not be a live recording by the time it's released, but hey, and then we're going to talk about their knowledge and experience with gundogs field trials judging. They've got a lot to offer. So you two, we'll let you start first, Miss Laura.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll let Laura introduce herself. We won't pronounce any last names, I'll just stick to you two. We'll let you start first, miss Laura. Yeah, we'll let Laura introduce herself.
Speaker 3:We won't pronounce any last names, I will just stick to the first names. Yeah, I will not say my last name, but yeah, I'm originally Italian and I moved to Belgium five years ago because of love. First because of love and second because Belgium is closer to England than Italy.
Speaker 1:Miss Laura, when you were in Italy, did you also train, were involved with gun dogs?
Speaker 3:Yeah, breeding, it's my job since more than 25 years, so of course I was already breeding. I only bred golden retriever in my life. I started with show dogs and I switched to working dog I would say 18 years ago. Okay, now the 80% of my breeding is only working dogs and I still have a couple of show dogs and I still breed some show lines, maybe once every two years.
Speaker 1:So how long total have you been breeding all together? Show and working lines.
Speaker 3:My first litter is from 2000,. I think 25 years. Yeah, I bred my first litter in 2000.
Speaker 1:That's a long time, so you've seen a lot. Ms Laura, I'm going to talk with you first. So what changes do you see? What's the major differences that you see in the show line golden retriever and the working line golden retriever?
Speaker 3:Well, there are a lot of differences. When I started breeding as I said before, I started with show dogs I think there was also more quality in show dogs, thinking about natural abilities, so you could still have a show dog who could be a good companion for a gun, for example, without thinking about high level of trial. I would say now we almost lost everything about this. Um. So, of course, there is a clear difference in the, in the uh, how they appear, how they look, okay, uh, but they make the biggest differences based on the character and um, yeah, the it's based on the character and um, yeah, the the. I would not even talk about, uh, the ability on the field, but really the ability, yeah, the ability to learn okay, which, uh, of course it's. It's. It's a huge part for us that we train dogs to, to get them on a certain level, but it's also very useful just for the family, because if you have a dog which is easy to manage, it makes him a very easy dog for non-professional people, so, as a pet, okay.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So I would say that's the biggest difference, probably yeah.
Speaker 1:Is gundog popularity in Italy, is it? How would you compare that to England, ireland and Scotland?
Speaker 3:No, not at all. I mean nine person out of ten. They don't even know that a retriever is a gundog.
Speaker 2:Wow, if I can add something, there is a big gundog community in Italy, but not specifically retriever. I think Italy is very famous for its pointing dogs.
Speaker 1:I mean mainly there are some very famous, very famous setter canals in Italy okay, so the sport is big in Italy as it is in, say, the United Kingdom if we're talking about other breeds, other other gundog breeds yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:We have a big tradition in Italy for this, but not for retrievers, because we don't have the kind of ground, we don't have the kind of hunting situation where you really need the retriever. So, no, they are definitely not popular. Maybe Labrador a bit more, because we have some shoot where they use Labrador for pickup Golden. I mean, a normal hunter, I would say, always has a bit more problem with the golden because they think about the coat, so they think they are more complicated to keep you know, which is actually not really true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, now, peter, you've been judging, I know, not just in Europe, but also in the United Kingdom too.
Speaker 2:Well, we've both judged in the united kingdom.
Speaker 1:Oh so, miss laura, you judge also yes I didn't know that. Okay, so tell me about what all field? What do you all judge? What kind of events do you do you judge at, and where?
Speaker 2:but we're both judges for retrievers only right. So what we judge actually on on in europe, and that's both continental europe and uk and ireland there are actually only two kinds of competitions we have and that's what we call a working test, which is on on dummies. But I think you call dummies um, you don't call them youmies, you call them bumpers, I think, but artificial stuff. It's what we do springtime, through summer, and then we have what we call field trials, which is what you saw at the IGEL. The IGEL is the, you know, that's where everybody wants to be, but trials are just shooting days on game and you don't get shots. That's the two kind of competitions we have all over Europe and over the UK. It's similar and that's the two things we judge.
Speaker 1:You know, I had Declan Boyle on here not long ago from Ireland. Actually, it was just released last week and I didn't realize, Peter, that there are national gundog teams in a lot of the European countries, right, yeah, so I know the UK, you know dog teams. What other European dog teams are there? Is there Italy, Belgium?
Speaker 2:What countries have those? Oh well, we have. So if you look to the UK, in the UK you have the IGL, where you were, that's, let's say, the field trial championship, that's the UK championship for all decks that have qualified on trials during the season. And then in the UK you have working tests every week through spring and summer. But there are a few big team events and I'm sure Declan told you about it. Declan is the team captain for the Irish team. But you have Skinners, which is a bit seen as the World Cup for retrievers, on dummies or on bumpers, as you call them. They have a few game fairs where they call it their home nation teams. Now on the continent we have something similar. We have the European Championship, which has actually been judged by Declan last year. Which European Championship, which has actually been judged by Declan last year, which is, can I say it's our IGL of the continent. You know, dogs qualify throughout the season and then they run there in the same championship.
Speaker 2:And we have something which is called the International Working Test and the name says it himself. We call it the IWT. It's organized in a different continental country each year. Right and um, each country delegates teams to the iwt. So, and actually we're organized in belgium. This year. It's um, we're both very busy with organizing. It will happen in two weeks and I think we have, and we have 40 teams out of 16 different countries, um, so we have teams from spain all the way to estonia, um finland, italy, austria, poland I mean czech republic and actually the scottish team is coming over as well.
Speaker 1:So now peter I apologize because after I let Laura introduce herself, I started hammering her with questions. I didn't realize how much experience she had, but tell the listeners your background in dogs with gun dogs.
Speaker 2:I actually also started with show dogs. I never bred. I mean, I'm now into breeding by helping Laura, but I never bred before. But we actually started in the same year. We figured out because we both bought our first own dog in 1994.
Speaker 2:My family at Laval was at home just as a pet and my first dog I bought myself was a flat-coated retriever. I started out showing and then at that time to make a dog show champion, a dog needed to have a field trial award and I didn't know that because I didn't know anything. My family has no shooting background at all. The reason I know yours, our mutual friend over in the US, is because my family come out of police dogs. They were all Malinois people and it still has a big place in my heart. So I stay in touch with that world and that's how I met yours and so on and so on. But I realized I have a very good show flat coat but it needs a field trial award to you know. I would say make his title. So I started and all the rest is history.
Speaker 2:I started liking the training more and I was stuck with flat coats for a few years because I was young and you know, Dreamer and a dreamer and I wanted to do my own thing and then realized at one point maybe I should buy a Labrador, which my first Labrador came. My first working-bread Labrador came in 2007, I think, and since then I only have Labradors. And then, when we came together, I also made up a few Golden. So we're in it the same amount of time, but made our way from show dogs to working dogs and actually in the end, both enjoy more training and competing than you know, being on a green carpet and, and you know, what's the highest level that each of you have obtained in the field trial world um, well, the highest thing you can put on a dog is title him, but it works a bit different.
Speaker 2:We both made up international field trial champions. We both have been second in the European Championship, which is probably the highest. And then I'm still happy to be the first Belgian ever to qualify for the IGL, which I mentioned two times.
Speaker 1:We'd have pitched at Laura Brett. Actually, when I was at the IGL this past fall I know you all were there Did you have a dog competing or someone competing one of your pups?
Speaker 2:Yeah, nathan Laffey, he runs the dog calls, I think, twice Zero to Hero, which is bred by Laura, and he qualified for the IGL five times. Now, wow has been at a third and what we call a diploma, diploma of merit. So he qualified five times, finished the trial two times and got an award two times. So, yeah, we were there to cheer for him.
Speaker 1:um, actually, and you know, I don't know how much our listeners know this, but you know I was surprised to see, I think, there was more than one golden retriever at the igl. Is that right?
Speaker 2:I think this year there were a few.
Speaker 3:There was definitely Chance, the dog that Peter just mentioned, His daughter, run by a nice girl which is quite new in the… Trials.
Speaker 2:Trials.
Speaker 3:And then it was out of golden.
Speaker 2:I think there were four this year, if I remember well yeah. I think there were four. Um, what's the lady called? Oh my word. Yeah, you're right, it was more than one. But we already know Nathan, because his brother was, and then this girl who was running a bitch out of him. So we also keep a close eye on her because it's, you know, laura's line, but I think there were at least one or two more and I can see her in front of me. But, you know, my mind goes blank now.
Speaker 3:You're not talking about Lance Compton. She was, she was, we're not sure we're getting too old, Ken.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Y'all stay busy because I know you're all leaving to drive back to. I think you were going to judge when you left there, right Back to Europe, I mean back to Belgium. Or you were going to judge when you left there, right Back to Europe, I mean back to Belgium. Or you were going somewhere and you were going to judge another trial. Actually, I called you while you were on the road. We talked.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, we were on the way to Italy to judge a trial over there. We judged two days' trial in Italy.
Speaker 1:Now I know you all train, you compete, you breed. Do you all ever actively do the shoots yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. Yeah, I have a shooting license.
Speaker 1:What do you think you've owned, peter? You've owned Labradors and Goldens and flat-coated. And what's some of the differences that someone like me or some of our listeners would not know between the Goldens and the Labs, other than the coat? We know their coat's different, but as far as hunting drive and hunting ability their nose what do you see? Major differences in the two breeds. When you're getting ready to go on your next hunting trip, make sure you pack the most efficient and reliable ammunition on the market. Migra ammunition brings you the most diverse loads on the market. Migra's patented stacked load technology is the epitome of efficiency Two shot sizes stacked together to create the most diverse and efficient line of shot shells in the industry. It doesn't matter what flyway, what state or what the weather. The standard remains the same At Migra reliable loads that perform in any condition every single time. We're proud to have Migra Ammunition as a sponsor for Gun Dog Nation.
Speaker 2:Well, there are differences because they are a different breed, but the first thing I'm going to say is the difference is not as big as some people want to. They use it as an excuse, and I'm talking sometimes more about and I saw it also in flat coats. They use the breed as an excuse, and I think it's the wrong thing to do, because one of the best advice I ever had was a good dog never has the wrong color or the wrong coat. So it means a good dog is a good dog and if you bring it back to the basics, whether it's a flat coat or a golden or labrador, they're bred for the same thing and we basically train them the same way, with some nuances, but I'll go into that in a second.
Speaker 2:So so of course, there is a difference in quality in breeding. There are a lot more quality Labradors, but there are also a lot more useless Labradors, and you know why? Because it's numbers, right. So it's easier to pick a decent bred Labrador puppy than it's more difficult to find a quality bred golden. But it's only a numbers game, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say it's more a matter of quantity than quality. Exactly, you just have more choice in Labrador than gold, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And you know I don't know about Belgium. I assume Belgium has a kennel club, like England. But you know, in the United States the AKC, and I think maybe it's changed recently to be the French Bulldog. But for years and years the number one registered dog in the United States we got a lot of people and a lot of dogs was the Labrador. So is it that way in Belgium?
Speaker 2:I think Labradors and Goulas are still in the top 10.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and they are very close to each other. But you see, that's more showbred Labradors and Goldens are still in the top 10. Yeah, and they are very close to each other.
Speaker 2:But you see, that's more showbred Labradors and Goldens. I mean, the market for pet dogs is a lot bigger with showbred I mean I'm talking really 100% working bred. Like Laura said, it's a numbers game, it's quantity. So there's more choice in quality Labrador litters than there is choice in quality golden litters. That being said, there are differences and I will start with the easy ones and a lot of people might disagree, but it's just our experience.
Speaker 2:I think labradors are, um and I'm going very practical in general better swimmers and the golders are better jumpers, because every time I take poppies on, it seems that the Labradors don't think when you start water work and the goldens they don't think when you start doing fences and all the other stuff. I think goldens need they're more, they more tend to work for you, and I'm not saying a Labrador, but I mean switching a handler on a Labrador, for example, is a lot easier than switching a handler on a Golden. I think they're a bit more affectionate. I think also, golden's make better pets than Labradors, to be honest, they're just a bit more. Yeah, but when it comes to the technical pace of the training, we don't make any difference. You know, we don't make any difference at all, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, actually I was just sitting here thinking I did that Napopo Gold School in December with yours and they have one of your dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yours is one of our dogs.
Speaker 1:yeah, I got to work with that dog yeah, it's right yeah she's very smart, beautiful dog. Uh, do you all, do you all send many pups outside of, well, outside of europe? Do you have any going to the united states on a regular basis?
Speaker 3:uh, I would. I would say we had uh, because I don't know, if you're aware, regulation changed from the 1st of August last year. I think, honestly, for puppies the market to US will have a big red cross, because keeping a puppy for six months, which is the minimum age when they are allowed to come into the country, now I mean for us as breeders, I mean we can't do it for free, of course, and then the pups start to become too expensive, you know, for the client. So they probably better go for an adult or not a puppy anymore.
Speaker 2:We sold quite a lot of dogs to the US in the last few years, but after this new regulation it's already expensive shipping a dog to the US If they need to pay a boarding kennel for six months and all the paperwork and vaccination and everything I mean. Who can afford this? I mean, I think it's a ridiculous rule. I don't know where it comes from, but it killed the market completely and it makes it very difficult for people over there to import new blood or to you know to. You're actually limited to either import adult dogs, which is also expensive, or import semen, which is also expensive. And the other thing I hear now from friends in the UK there seems to be an interest in bitches in pubs. So well, you're technically importing pubs, but they're not born yet.
Speaker 2:So we see, I mean, I mean not us we never did it, but I heard from friends also in the UK that there is like an increased interest in buying bitches that are, when they go in season, mate them, and I think we have. I mean, a lady we work with she said up to a certain amount of days of pregnancy, you, you're allowed to bring them over, um, so yeah, I mean I feel sorry for people in the us because you know it's uh, it makes it a lot more complicated to get a taste of yeah I imported two pups right before August 1st and you know there's talk about the rule.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it'll be, you know, repealed back or not. It's really a shame and I don't understand the purpose of it. No one does. When you all sent the dogs that came into the US that were bought from you all, did they go to hunting homes or pet homes or both?
Speaker 3:I think they all went to actually professional.
Speaker 2:I think the one to Joris is the first one that went outside of a shooting context. Joris wanted something different than a Malinois to train for detection work and he wanted something working, bred, with a bit of drive on it. Then we met and he saw some videos from us on our website and then he said I want one of them. So yeah, she's doing very well and I think we also have one at the veteran, some organization for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the veterans.
Speaker 1:Like for service dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's an organization.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they yeah.
Speaker 2:They do some kind of therapy work, don't they?
Speaker 3:Yeah it was like six, seven years ago. So, I don't really remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean US veterans who served in the military and I think, if I'm not mistaken people with traumas and everything combat traumas and they use that dog as a therapy dog for US veterans. Yeah, but that's a few good years ago. A pup went over to go and do this.
Speaker 3:It's brother of Ada, so it must be six six and a half, yeah, so that one.
Speaker 1:Are goldens, the only dogs y'all have currently.
Speaker 2:No, no, we do have Labradors, but we I mean only breeding goldens have both. I always have some Labrador males. Actually I also have a bitch sometimes, but we don't really breed. I'm not really interested in breeding. I mean not interested in breeding in the sense of I enjoy the training and the competing and the judging. I never had a real interest in building up my own line or my own kennel. I prefer to buy them and train them. So the only little born are goldens.
Speaker 1:Now, Peter, the labs that you have, are they for competing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, obviously.
Speaker 1:Let's switch gears a little bit. You guys obviously have trained dogs to a high level and achieved very high awards for your training with your dogs. What would you to the listeners who are just now maybe getting a pup and want to train and to compete, even though our field trials are a little different over here, what advice would both of you give to a new dog owner that could be young or old, that wants to hunt and or compete with that dog?
Speaker 2:I think we both have the same opinion when it comes to starting. If you're really new, I don't know how it's over in the US, so it might be an answer that's a bit colored by the continental situation in the US. So it might be an answer that's a bit colored by the continental situation.
Speaker 3:The first rule with newcomers and puppy is less is more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, less is more. Yeah, absolutely. But even before that, go and find somebody to help you. Right, go and train with somebody, take some lessons, whatever, whatever. Find a training club, but train with people who prove they know what they're doing. Because it's such an and I'm stealing a quote of, yeah, a very famous handler in the uk. He once told me he said it became an entertainment industry.
Speaker 2:So there are, you know, people giving training everywhere, and I don't blame anybody. I mean, you know, everybody can. I'm not jealous, I don't judge, but when you're new and you, you have some ambition, you want to do it right. The best advice we got was train with people who are better than you, you know, and and don't and don't be jealous. There is a big difference between jealousy and envy. If that, if you understand what I mean, you should be jealous. In a way, you have to be inspired by somebody. But look to the CV, look to people who have results and actually show that what they try to teach you in theory, they're actually able to put it in practice. Because there is a lot of and social media is not helping. Another quote I stole from somebody else is social media is rewarding bad training, you know. So yeah, just, I don't want to. It sounds a bit too dramatic when I listen to myself. But just, if you buy a pup and it's well-bred and you have some ambition, or you just want to have a decent, well-behaved dog, just to go rough shooting, study a bit. You can find anything on the internet now about anybody. Just do your research before you blindly go somewhere and do something.
Speaker 2:Actually, what Laura means, let us more. You don't need to train eight-week-old, 12-week-old puppies, just let them be a pup. Let them be you know, enjoy life, bond with you, you know, and and there is a right age for everything, you know. But now it's a, it's very commercial. They're even around their own village puppy courses and and puppy seminars and I think, jesus christ, you know and I'm stealing a lot of quotes from other people because I can't say it better it's like try to teach a child to ride at a birthday party.
Speaker 2:You know it won't happen. So, you know, let a pup be a pup. Let them, you know, grow up, let them bond with you, let them experience a lot of things Drive a car, go in the forest, let them have a swim when the weather is nice. But it's not training, it's just guidance, it's education, and then, when the moment is there, you will feel it. And it's easier to feel it when you have a lot of experience. You can't buy experience, but I think, even when you're new and you get the right advice, you will feel when it's the right moment to take the right steps.
Speaker 1:Now do you all use treat training, clicker training? What methods do you have work best for you?
Speaker 3:Good boy, good girl, that's it.
Speaker 1:All right, so no bribery.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 2:No exactly.
Speaker 2:We don't believe in that okay, no, because the word bribery is very important. You know, actually, a trade or a clicker, they're not training methods, right, they're training tools. That's a big difference. So if you use a clicker wrong, all the effect is gone. If you use trades wrong, the effect is gone and you say bribery.
Speaker 2:Most people use trades as bribery and we make a lot of comparison with children, young children.
Speaker 2:It's like you go to the supermarket with a young child and it screams his head off because it wants an ice cream. You can buy him an ice cream to make him shut up, but that's not education, you know. You can tell him off for screaming and then when he's quiet for the afternoon, then give him an ice cream to reward him for being quiet and it compares exactly to dogs. So clickers and treats and all the other, they're just tools and the tools we use is good boy, good girl or don't do this and it's whether timing is much more and timing in correction and praising and timing in when you do what with the puppy is much more important than whether you use. I don't judge people who use a clicker. I know very. I mean I know very, very skilled handlers, mainly in the work yours is doing, protection work and police work who use clickers very successfully. But most of them are successful trainers because they have an expert timing and they can read the dog. It's not because they use a clicker you know.
Speaker 1:Well, that's amazing because you're all just using verbal praise yeah, and you're making it to field trial champion and levels. That's impressive because it takes a lot of training to get those dogs to that level?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does, for sure, but that's why it's very important to have a good DNA in your head, you know, to allow, because this allowed you to proceed in that way, you know. So, actually, I would say the connection is probably, I would say, one of the qualities we appreciate the most when we choose a path. Okay, I would say two things the connection and the ability to recover. Okay, they are the two things that make the difference when we have to choose a pup and if they grow up, um, with these two quality, you know, they make your life a bit easier because they can take verbal correction but also verbal prices. So you don't need any tool in your hand, you just use your voice, and your voice allows you to have the right timing close to you but also far from you, which a biscuit will never work when the dog is at 100 meters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially when you try to bribe the dog, it will never work. In Dutch, or even in Italian, I don't know, I never found the right word, but trainability for me is key. A dog needs to If they want to be trained. It makes your life a lot easier and it sounds a bit stupid, but I mean, everybody who trained one dog in his life knows what I mean. And there is a lot of debate about whether the dogs from now are better than in the past or the other way around. I think actually a lot of dogs today are a lot better than in the past, and with better I mean I think and maybe my I can't talk for the whole continent or for all of Europe. I go off to the UK so I can compare a bit, but our dogs here in the past were a lot harder, a lot tougher. So in my opinion, we all breed and we want to trial and we want to compete at a high level. But the average shooting person just wants to have a dog that goes out shooting maybe 10 times a season. He's more a pet and a friend for the children than he's a gundog. So I think the temperaments we have today, they're easier to train. They're not as high drive and they don't need to be. I mean, that's my opinion.
Speaker 2:I think in the past and when I started I had dogs. They were caterpillars. They would go through a concrete wall and it was absolutely spectacular. But I think the dogs we have now, they are as efficient and they're much easier to manage. I'm not saying it's easy to train a dog to qualify for the IGEL. There's a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of expertise that goes in there. But I think today in general, dogs are more level-headed and with easier to train. You know, and it's easier to train. I don't mean it's easier to make them up to a champion. I think, if you know what I mean, they're just, they're a better average for everybody. You know, also for the normal shooting person or as a pet. As Laura said before, I think temperament is absolutely key, you know, absolutely key.
Speaker 1:You know that's a good point. I think you know I've had people ask me all the time about types of dogs to buy for hunting. And you know, and I always tell them hey, you really don't need a dog that's got all this field trial, bread lines and high competition achievements for a regular, everyday hunting dog. But you may get to hunt two weeks out of the year. In the United States we we don't normally have as much vacation as y'all, you know, as a rule, as a general rule, so we don't have that much time to take off work and go hunting. So the rest of the 355 days a year it's sitting at your house. So you might want something that's a little less motivated Still retrieve, game and be obedient, but maybe not like a rocket.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely true. Laura said something about the ability to recover. It's, for us, part of the yes.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask the yes. I was going to ask Laura, I was going to ask her to expand on that yeah, about the ability to recover yeah.
Speaker 3:I would say for me, probably, if you ask me to to to rank the priority when I choose a pup, I would say ability to recover is I would put her in the first place, definitely okay and Laura, if you don't mind, explain that to the listeners.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? Ability to recover? I know what it means, but maybe our listeners don't understand what that means.
Speaker 3:Ability to recover is the ability to make a mistake but be ready to try again. It's actually the ability to try again, to be willing to try again. Don't give up, which is not being tough or hard. So then you stubborn? Okay. That's not ability to recover, but it's the willing to say okay. If me it means I can do it, I'm gonna try again, I'm gonna try again and I make a mistake, and I'm gonna try again and I'm gonna try again.
Speaker 1:Okay, fine, finally we got it and that's as opposed to just shutting down like when a dog just shuts down, is okay. I'm done for today okay, hello this, okay.
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Speaker 2:Retriever training supply. Yeah, and I think it's a quality for different reasons. It's a quality to train them because there is confusion and pressure involved in training. How you turn it, I mean mean you know, that's it. I don't want to go into the debate of all the positive, only training et cetera. I made a comparison with children Over here.
Speaker 2:Children start going to school, or what we call preschool or kindergarten, from two and a half years old. Child has been with mommy for two and a half years and then suddenly you drop it over the school gate with a sandwich for lunch and say bye-bye, mommy's coming back at five o'clock in the afternoon. It's a shock. A lot of people cry the first day at the school gate, but we think it's normal, why it's part of growing up. Then they go into school. They realize it's not so bad. There are the children to play with, the teacher is a lady and after a few days they'll start to enjoy it. But it's a process of confusion. It's not all positive. You learn to enjoy it. It's the same with dogs when a puppy is all play and fun and then you put the lid on it for the first time, you're going to ask it more and more to walk the wheel, to sit and stay. They don't all enjoy it from the first moment you know it's sitting state. They don't all enjoy it from the first moment you know it's our job to make it as enjoyable as possible. That's where the ability to recover comes in.
Speaker 2:And later on in life, when a dog is working, you know especially the training. There's a lot of training and handling involved. But when a dog is there in the area and has to do his business, don't give up, or what you saw at the Idle. A dog needs to jump a fence or a wall. You don't want one that jumps and falls over and says, oh right, I'll give up.
Speaker 2:But a lot of people confuse high-drive, hard-going dogs with this. So we want something sensible, that's trainable, that wants to work with us but has the ability to recover. And we also think you said it a while ago it's even a quality for pet dogs, because if we sell a puppy to a family with young children and the children are a bit rough with it or a bit wild, or they scream, or you know, the pup might be scared for a second, but he'll recover, he'll get over it. So I think it's just a big quality in a dog in general, whether you're competing or not. But it's not to be confused, like Laura said, with being stubborn or being stone hard, and I think that's, in my opinion, that's a good evolution we had in the breeding of working dogs today, compared to 25, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:Since you all have worked with, you know obviously have experience in show dogs, showing dogs, working dogs too. In both of those situations, a dog needs to have good nutrition. What kind of advice would you give the listeners in making sure that your dogs, you know, receive proper nutrition and look good and, can, you know, participate in shows or working environments?
Speaker 3:Yeah, already for years, we honestly, strongly believe in a fresh diet. So our dogs are fed with raw meat, raw vegetables and of course, we use quite a good amount of supplements. Depends from the period of the year the dog many hours we work them, or if they are show dogs, or they are working dogs, if they are puppies and so they need supplements for their. The dog many hours we work them with their show dogs, with their working dog, with their puppies, and so they need supplements for their joints and whatever. But we, we feed our dogs raw and we believe it honestly, we believe in it, yeah what's the, I assume, taking that kind of care of dogs?
Speaker 1:your dogs probably live a pretty good long time, probably above the average as far as their lifespan.
Speaker 2:Well, we always say that 10 to 12 years as an average for a retriever is a good age. We had several above that. Actually, in the last two years, we lost a 16-year-old, a 13-year-old, but we also lost an 11-year-old, and we also, to be fair, we lost a five-year-old this summer.
Speaker 3:Which was an exception, which was an exception. I would say the average 13. Okay, that's pretty good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're above 12, which is a good average, but I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, what's the average weight for a golden male, a golden retriever male?
Speaker 3:A working one, you mean.
Speaker 1:Yes, ma'am 28?.
Speaker 3:Yes 28 kilos yeah, 28 kilos and 22, 23 for the bitch.
Speaker 1:Okay, peter, what would that be in pounds?
Speaker 2:Divided, multiplied by two.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I think a pound is about half a kilo.
Speaker 1:Okay, I didn't know that. You taught me something new.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm pretty sure, don't take me on it but what we call a pound, I think it's not exactly half a kilo, but it's roughly half a kilo.
Speaker 1:But as close as a meter in a yard probably yeah similar, yeah, similar. Okay, if people want to look at your dog's dogs or maybe even get a dog, how do they get in touch with you? Do you have a website? Yeah, what is it? Do you have a website?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is?
Speaker 1:that let's have your web address.
Speaker 2:Well, the website, all the dogs, also the Labradors, are on the same website. The website is Laura's Candle Name, which is Think Twice Gold Retriever. So if you Google Think Twice Gold Retriever, you'll always find it.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's Think Twice Gold Retrievers, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Is itnetorgcom. No, it's be be for Belgium.
Speaker 1:Okay be.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, and you are on all the social media too, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is also a Facebook page.
Speaker 3:There is a Facebook page and also an Instagram page, which I don't really update often.
Speaker 2:I learned recently that when you're using Facebook, you're old, because young people don't use Facebook anymore. But anyway, yeah, laura gives a Facebook page quite up to date, especially when it comes to litters. And you know people, when they order a pup, they like to see pictures and videos and you know it's an easy way for them to forward.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to put you two on the spot. If someone were trying to decide between a golden retriever and a Labrador retriever as a hunting dog, what would you tell them to get, and why?
Speaker 2:I will give you the answer I already gave you. I know Laura's answer. You will always say golden, but. But no, but a good dog never has their own breed or their own color.
Speaker 3:You know, I think it's's, I think it's preference really, yeah, yeah, to be honest, it depends from what dog should do in the spare time of his life. I mean, if he's a family dog I think Peter said it before I think Golden, they have a better switch. You know, they are really, can be very, very calm and quiet in the house and so perfectly pet, and then when you go out, we have several of them and then when you go out training they are just a machine. You know, very high-drive dogs, you know. But probably also because we bred them like this, we like them like this, we like dogs which can switch off in the house and be very very powerful outside.
Speaker 3:So for a family, yes, I would suggest a golden outside. So for a family, yes, I would suggest a golden, and maybe for a more professional, it doesn't matter, I would suggest a good one.
Speaker 2:That's it, I think the question is the average shooting person. I mean, somebody just shoots a few days a season and for the rest the dog also needs to be a pet and maybe be a pet for the children. Whatever, then I agree 100. I would definitely say I think a golden is more suitable than a lambert because they just have a bit more an affectionate temperament and you know y'all could probably help me on this one too.
Speaker 1:You know I don't know this answer, but I'm just assuming that in the united states that finding a working golden is difficult, you know you can find working retrievers. There's advertisements all over social media, you know everywhere. Is that, is that pretty accurate? You think from? I know you're an outsider looking in, but you guys have a lot of contacts here and you travel yeah, it's the same over here.
Speaker 2:I think it's the same in every country, in every european country, also the uk it's. You can find a good, a well-bred labrador litter in every street. Um, finding a good working bread litter. It's just, it's a numbers game.
Speaker 1:They're just less. Yeah, you know, and I think this, laura, you might agree with me. I think when you were first talking I think you were saying that you know there's so many that the Goldens were kind of watered down because of the popularity and the show lines. And I think that's the same. I've got Dobermans, I do protection dogs too, that's how I know yours, and I think the same with the Dobermans. They were popularized in the eighties with the TV show Magnum, other other shows and movies and they, you know, they just became watered down. It's so hard to find a consistent working line Doberman I have to, but consistent working line Doberman, I have two, but I know where to get them and it's not easy to find.
Speaker 2:And I feel like the Goldens are kind of in that same category. Yeah, no, no, it's true, but I think also Labradors, at least on the continent, went to that period once, when they were in the poker. Yeah, I really don't know. I actually haven't talked about why at one point. Because if you look to field trialing anyway, retrievers, most retriever breeds have UK origin Labrador and Golders at least flatcoats as well.
Speaker 2:Trialing was invented in the UK, Our sport comes from the UK and if you look to trialing history in the beginning, flat, the, trialing world you know really, yeah, absolutely, we're only flat coats or they will go wavy coat at the time, flat coat, and then it's only um, after the second world war that Labradors took really over. I mean, I don't know if you ever heard about Judy and Sam Seal. I know them because they read flat codes. But Judy once wrote it's a small interesting book History of Retrievers, and it goes about history of trialing and everything and if you look to the numbers it's amazing to see how it changed.
Speaker 2:Now flat codes have completely disappeared from the working scene. They're exclusively and some people will be slightly angry with me but they're a show breed now 100%. It's very hard to find something that still has a bit of working blood in it Goldens there is still a very clear show line and a working line. But why the working goldens at one point lost popularity? I don't really know, because there also used to be a lot more, not when we were competing, but if you look in the history. 40-50 years ago there were a lot more goldens, also at the IGL, a lot more goldens competing, a lot more goldens in the awards and I think just more and more people who probably also had goals.
Speaker 2:They all switched to labradors and then it's like a snowball effect. You know more good trainers and skilled people struggle to find the right stuff, so they switch to another breed. They're successful there, so they start to. Maybe you know what I I mean. So one breed's getting stronger and stronger and another breed is getting weaker and weaker, and with weak I don't mean the breed's weak, but the people and the you know, experienced knowledge of people in a breed get smaller and smaller. I think that's part of the reason. I mean flatcoats. It disappeared completely.
Speaker 1:You know, I never. I wasn't really sure what I saw the other day and I finally asked somebody. I was at an AKC hunt test and I saw a flat coated retriever, first one I ever seen in person, 56 years old, and I see a lot of dogs, but yeah, it was in Texas, you know, at an AKC hunt test. That was very rare, I would assume we see them at working tests.
Speaker 3:On tests. We see them a lot here.
Speaker 2:Also a lot of goldens, to be honest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say I see a big difference between my original country, italy, and here I mean Belgium or anywhere, I mean the most north of Europe. In Italy I would say you can count two, three, four, five goldens on a test. A little more over here, yeah, there are definitely much more. Also, because we live close to I mean Belgium is close to our neighbouring countries, germany, and in Germany they are very, very popular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Really Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there is a big difference in breed count on a working test or in trials. In trials it's 95% Labrador. In working tests you see much more golden depending on it. But you also see flat coats. You even see the Nova Scotia. You'll see the minor breeds in test as well, but they seem not to be able to step up towards the trial.
Speaker 1:Do you all see over there in your trials that you attend and I know I'm going to pronounce this wrong but the Drothar, the German wire hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, trials are all retriever trials or pointing dog trials or spaniel trials, um, but yeah, german wire there they're quite popular also with just um shooting people over here because they are, I think they believe in some kind of fata morgana, but they say no, it can point, it can retrieve, it can do everything. I never met a dog who can do. Because they are, I think they believe in some kind of Fata Morgana, but they say no, it can point, it can retrieve, it can do everything. I never met a dog that can do everything. But it's a dog that's very popular for rough shooting over here In Italy and also in Italy Because you know, technically, it can retrieve, it can point, it can flush, they can use it to track wild boar or to track a lost rood deer or anything.
Speaker 2:So it's quite a complete dog. So that's why it's very popular with the average shooting person and they do trial them. But I think on the continent setters and pointers are… I mean setters and pointers are, I mean the UK pointing breeds are more popular. I'm not an expert on pointing dog trials, but I have the impression that non-continental breeds, as we call them, so the pointing dogs from the UK, are much more popular for trialing people than the continental pointers. For some reason?
Speaker 1:Well, hey, it's been a. I know we've been trying to get together for a while and I appreciate you taking time. I've really enjoyed it. I could talk all day about dogs. I know you guys it's getting late over there, but so again they can find you at ThinkGolden Think twice.
Speaker 2:If they just Google, think Twice Gold Retriever, you will always end up on our website.
Speaker 1:Well, Laura and Peter, thank you so much for being on my podcast. It's a pleasure and an honor to have you guys on and we may get you on again. Let me ask this before I go Are you guys going to be at the IGL this year in Scotland?
Speaker 2:It might be Probably. Yes, I would really really like to run it again to qualify again, but I don't think it will happen this year. We know that Nathan wants to give Chance another try this season, although he will be eight in May. But the dog was a bit unlucky because there was the COVID year in his career when there was no IGEL, so career when there was no eye gel. So he actually lost one season to qualify. But Nathan wants to give him one more last season to try.
Speaker 2:So if he qualifies we will be, there, and also because it's in Scotland this year, it will be a different experience than the one you saw now. So if you can come over again, go, because the estate is unbelievable.
Speaker 1:I'm really planning on it. Let me ask you too. I know they wait really late before they announce. Where Is that correct? Like last year it was, you know.
Speaker 3:No, it's already in public.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:If you go to the IGO website, it's longer this year, I think.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, for some reason last year I thought it was later in the year before it came out, but maybe….
Speaker 3:No, the date and the place are known. I would say the year before.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I better get on that then and make some reservations.
Speaker 2:I'll send you over the link. It's easy. The date's always the same it's the last week of November or first week of December, always.
Speaker 1:Do you guys have any trips planned to the States anytime soon?
Speaker 2:I just came back from the States, to be fair, but I went there for my job.
Speaker 1:That's right, Peter, You're over here quite a bit right.
Speaker 2:No, no, Usually only once a year. I work for an American company, but I go to the most useless place for dogs that's Las Vegas, and I just went in and out. Actually, for dogs we've never been in the US. I mean, you always told us, when you're over here, come visit us. But yeah, it's a long way.
Speaker 1:It's a long way. He and his wife have a nice place. I like their setup, that part of Texas. They're near Lockhart, a really nice area We've only seen it on pictures and videos. Yeah, it's supposed to be. I think that area's supposed to be the barbecue capital of Texas. Yeah Well, hey, thank you all so much. I appreciate you, laura and Peter. Thank you so much for taking time and we'll keep in touch and hopefully I'll see you all in Scotland this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having us. Alright, thank you. Yeah, yeah, thanks for having us Thanks for you, all right, thank you, bye-bye, bye-bye.
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