Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Clark Kennington - Champion Gundog Trainer, The Hunt Test Guide, Castile Creek Kennels
#028 What separates truly elite dog trainers from the rest? Clark Kennington pulls back the curtain on 20 years of success in the competitive retriever world, revealing that psychological understanding might matter more than traditional pressure-based methods.
As a two-time SRS Crown Champion with over 100 Grand passes to his credit, Kennington explains how the retriever game has evolved dramatically over two decades. Today's better-bred, more intelligent dogs respond to fundamentally different training approaches than their predecessors. "They don't require the use of pressure that they did 20 years ago," he explains, highlighting how the best trainers steadily adapt their methods to match this evolution.
Kennington's most powerful insights revolve around building genuine connections with each dog. Unlike trainers who maintain strict emotional boundaries, he becomes each dog's "biggest cheerleader." This relationship-based approach extends to competition situations, where his pre-run ritual might surprise many handlers: "If I'm in the holding blind about to go run a dog, it's not uncommon for me to have that dog laid over on its back and me rubbing its belly." This counterintuitive approach creates relaxed, confident dogs that perform at their peak.
Drawing from his experience in both retriever work and protection dog training, Kennington articulates a philosophy that emphasizes psychological understanding over dominance: "I want the dog to do the right thing because it wants to do the right thing, more so than I want it to do the right thing because it fears doing the wrong thing." This perspective, coupled with his insights on maintaining consistent standards appropriate to each dog's developmental stage, offers a blueprint for handlers seeking to elevate their training approach.
Whether you're competing at elite levels or simply want to improve your hunting companion's performance, Kennington's balanced methods provide a roadmap for building better relationships and achieving better results with your retriever. Visit www.thehunttestguide.com to learn directly from Clark through instructional videos, courses, and regular Q&A sessions designed for handlers at all experience levels.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation.
Speaker 1:This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters mo pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project with called pitney myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on curb records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harley, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation.
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Speaker 1:Gundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas. I also have a very special guest that I've been chasing down for a while and dying to get on here, a legend in the business. He happens to also be in Texas at this time, even though it's not his home state, but he's down here training Mr Clark Kennington. Clark, tell everybody about yourself, who you are and what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Man, I appreciate you having me on. My name's Clark Kennington. I work with Castile Creek Kennels, Also one of the teachers with the Hunt Test Guide that's partnered with Cornerstone. I've been a professional trainer for right around 20 years now. So right when I came out of college this is what I started doing and it's really all. I know Been very blessed over those 20 years to stand beside some pretty amazing dogs and learned a little bit over that 20 years through trial and error stuff. And you know I can definitely tell you what not to do because I've had 20 years of learning what not to do. Um, most of my career I've spent in hunt test. Uh, running hrc and akc. I've done the srs a good bit. Um won two srs crown championships. Uh. Made several srs champions. Um. I'm not sure how many grand champions I've made. At this point I know I'm well over 100 grand passes.
Speaker 1:Clark. Has anyone else won more than two crowns?
Speaker 2:Steven Durrance has won three. My partner at CCK, lost Diamonds, got seven of them. Now Carter Turner, who I used to work with at Mossy Pond we used to train together he's won two of them. Now, other than that, I think that's it. There's not very many multiple crown winners. It's very difficult to win a crown.
Speaker 2:I've been pretty blessed. I won my first one in 2018 with a dog named Roscoe. Then I won my second one in 21 with a dog named Stroker, and that, to me, is probably one of my greatest accomplishments of my career, because that dog was literally born on my living room floor and I watched him from the day he was born until he was a crown champion. It was one of the most accomplished, biggest accomplishments for me In 2018, stroker got second to the dog, roscoe that won and I kind of felt like I kind of stole it from Stroker, because Roscoe came in that year and I, you know, built him into an SRS dog and he won. And the year before that, stroker was four years old and I made a handler's mistake that cost him winning the crown and he had second. The year before that, stroker was four years old and I made a handler's mistake that cost him winning the crown and he had second the year before. So it was like this accumulation of is it ever going to happen? Because I've cost him two of them and thank God in 2021, he got it done Been very successful at the Grand.
Speaker 2:My past record over the last five or six years is around 70% to 75% Amazing. Just been really, really blessed to have some special dogs, and a lot of the grand is knowing how to prepare for it. When you've run a lot of them, it helps a lot to kind of know what you're going to see and how to prepare the dogs for it. So I've been very blessed in my career. Nothing else I can think of that I would rather have done.
Speaker 1:Well, of all the things you said that are sitting here blowing me away, the one thing you said that actually made me feel a lot better. So this weekend I was running a dog I've actually got a Floyd son. He's my only American Lion Lab and I was taking him the AKC test at Rody Best Place there at Lost Pines and if he passed he got his title. We did the land series. He passed. We started the water series. They only passed 23 dogs out of 40.
Speaker 1:For a junior test, I thought that was pretty dang low, yeah, and I got down, got ready to send my dog. I raised my hand to send the dog and they told me to stuff my leash down a little further in my pocket. Well, that threw my concentration off. Now I'm not blaming anybody, right, that's my own fault. I'm not blaming the judge, especially since I'm now an AKC junior judge. So I raised my hand back, I fixed the leash, raised my hand back up again.
Speaker 1:They shot the bird, it hit the water and I guess my HRC test kicked in instead of my AKC test. Oh no, I sent him and all the dogs were messed up. The duck was following that alligator grass or whatever you know. Yep, yep, and it was really messing the dogs up and my dog just nailed it. It now his steadiness is a zero on scale one to ten but his drives are 22 on scale one to ten, you know, just crazy. But he ran the probably the best mark line he's ever ran and I know he would have passed because he got the second retrieve too. Other, I never had any doubt. But handler mistake and I'm a. I'm an amateur, very, very, very amateur handler. So, man, it's tough. And Clark I mean a guy like you who does this for a living sometimes we get humbled, don't we?
Speaker 2:I mean we do, we do and I've always preached, and I saw Carter sent me something the other day. We talked pretty regularly about something he had done a video from Eukanuba and one of the things I taught him and I've preached for years is either you get a ribbon or a lesson. If you got neither one of those, you wasted your time and money. And I'm a firm believer in that and I still get those lessons too. You never outgrow it and it's a humbling sport and people don't realize that until they get in it, because you're literally kind of helpless up there. You know you're just hoping that all this work and training that you put in comes to fruition while you're running this test, and if it doesn't, you know you're at the mercy of an animal and sometimes we make mistakes too, and then it costs them. And then you know, to me that's even worse. Worse if I make a mistake that cost him. It just it eats at me and I know that eats at you.
Speaker 1:It killed me because my dog was. He loves to test, he, he when he knows we're going to hunt test he's. He's wild, and you're right, I, he was just so and he was. He couldn't understand why he couldn't get the second retreat and he's done three hrc's and he had done three AKCs, so he knew the game right. And when I pulled him away and he couldn't do that second retreat, he was just looking at me like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:What do you mean? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And he kept trying to turn around and go back. He's like wait a minute, wait a minute. I got another retreat and I was like bu and everybody felt sorry for me, you know. But two of them said two different people said you'll never do that again.
Speaker 2:No, 100%.
Speaker 1:And I was like you know what you said it I won't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I watched and I won't name any names of the handlers because I mean it's salt in the wound In the sixth series of a Master National, we had an interrupted triple. We had to pick up one of the marks and then run a blind and then pick up the other two marks. Well, this handler just forgot, just forgot about the blind, and this dog was clean through the first five series and he just sent it for another mark. I mean, you're on the last series of the Master National and man, I just and he's been doing it as long as I have, probably longer and it's just, it happens. I mean it just happens, man, I was heartbroken for him.
Speaker 2:And the judges were too but the judges can't say anything, you know.
Speaker 1:It was a bad deal. Yeah, the judges come up and talk to me after I did that and one of them even said you know I got you off track, you know saying that about the lease. Hey, it is what it is. I mean, like I said, it is a lesson learned. So, clark, you know I'm not even near the level of competing yet that you are not anywhere close. That's my goal. I'd like to at least take a dog to the master. But in your opinion, especially since you've done them all, what's the? What's the hardest use? Is the grand, the SRS. What do you feel like the most challenging award to achieve in this business?
Speaker 2:That I run. You know I don't run many field trials. I've run some quals and made some qualified all-age dogs. I would say making a Super Retriever Series champion and crown champion is a crown champion for sure is just man. It's so hard and the game has changed so much since I started it. Like when Stroker won there were a lot of really good dogs, but typically when we would show up to an event and I could look at the dog list, I could tell you who half the top six was going to be before we ran the first dog. Like it was just like that then. Now you just don't know. All the dogs are so good. The breeding's gotten better, the training's gotten better. It's anybody's game really.
Speaker 2:I mean, that dog just has to be on that weekend. And for the crown you're talking about six series or five series. They got to be on for five series. That's going to span through like six to seven days. It's. You're asking a lot of that dog.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as the hunt test world goes, uh, between the master national and the grand, the grand is so much more difficult than the master national, um and lyle and I joke about that all the time Like he's never run a Grand and the National to him is. I mean, he gets stressed about it, he gets worked up, like his whole mood changes when it's getting time for the National. For me it's like it's a relaxing thing, because the Grand to me is so much more difficult. You know the Master National. It's judged the same way as a weekend master test. You've just got to average a seven across the board. They can't drop you unless mathematically you cannot average a seven at the end of all the series.
Speaker 2:Well, at the Grand they're judging you on a scale of zero, one and two. Two is good work, one is marginal and zero is failure. Well, each judge is going to give you a zero, one or two on marking and they're going to give you that on control. Well, if at any point in time you handle on a mark, both judges are going to give you a pair of ones. That's the only pair of ones you can get for five days or four days, four series. So if you handle on a mark in the first series and you have a mediocre blind in the fourth, that's another set of ones. You're done, go home. There's no way to make up ground. So if you make a mistake. It's not like you can make up ground in the next series like you can at the Master National.
Speaker 1:So it's just unforgiving.
Speaker 2:It's very unforgiving and as a handler it is God. It's so stressful, especially if you know like when you go to the line, hey, this dog's sitting on ones, because I had a bad blind in the second series and here we are in the fourth series.
Speaker 1:It gets a little nerve wracking. So you're telling me this SRS, you could go for four or five days.
Speaker 2:So a weekend SRS consists it typically starts on Friday and there's four series in a weekend SRS. Now the SRS the lady that owned Roscoe that I won the crown with she had the best interpretation of it. She ran, she did rodeos when she was growing up and she was a big barrel racer and in rodeos they had a stake that they would give you an award for the best all-around cowboy, the cowboy that could do everything. And that's how she kind of perceives the SRS and that's a good way to put it, because you've got to be proficient at the hunt test game, but you've also got to be proficient at the field trial game and you've got to be proficient as well in what they call hunt savvy. So on a weekend test of weekend SRS, typically your first two series of requirements you must have a hunt test and then you must have a field trial. So, like the last one I ran, our first series was a field trial and the shortest bird was 230 yards and the longest one was 380. They threw a triple and the long bird was 380 yards and they retired two of the birds. Well, what happens is you get dogs that are really good at field trial. They'll go out there and kill that. Well then, our second series was like a master style test. They threw a triple, leave all three birds lay in, run two blinds and then come back and get those three birds. But there was no visible guns, it was just like they threw a master level triple. But we want you to leave all those laying, run the two blinds and then come back and get them.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the times the dogs that do real well on the field trial may struggle on the hunt test side. And typically your third series is going to be a hybrid that's kind of been the theme this year or it'll be just like a big water blind and the finals tend to be what they call hunt savvy. So a hunt savvy they may put out 150 snow goose decoys and have a snow goose call electronic call going and you got to walk up in there and they're going to throw marks and blinds. As you've got to run in there. They I mean I've seen them throw up to seven marks at a time, um, when we're in like a sled blind. So it's going to be very hunt savvy related. It's going to be kind of tricky.
Speaker 2:So sometimes the dogs that have hunted can excel in the hunt savvy side of things. That's one of the things Stroker was really good at, because I guided with Stroker commercially guided with Stroker for like three or four years. So it was common for him to pick up 800 to a thousand ducks under duck season. So you put him in that kind of situation. I mean that's just right. At home he did that 60 days a year for several years.
Speaker 2:So it's a very different game I don't, I don't and I don't miss it I.
Speaker 1:I got him on my own place and I don't do it as often. I'm slowing down, but yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 2:I, commercial guided, for 15 years, ran two different lodges, one in Mississippi and then one in Arkansas. Oh man and man, it's a lot of work.
Speaker 1:People don't realize how much work, so you must be a pretty daggone good duck caller. I mean I wouldn't say I'm great, but I do okay. Um, but I I don't miss guiding. So clark to me, you're good. I'm gonna ask you a question. I don't know anyone now more qualified to answer this, but you you've. So now I realize I just learned that you have all this guiding experience and obviously hunting experience and you've obviously got hunt test, field trial, srs experience to a large, to a high degree. In your opinion, what if you could pick a dog to be the best hunting dog that has a title, whether it be Master, grand, srs, which title would you want on your personal hunting dog?
Speaker 2:The Grand Champion, without a doubt. And why is that? It's just more hunting related and they're a lot more controllable. Control is such a big thing at the Grand, you know, you got to have a dog that sits calmly, quietly. He's not creeping all over the place being a maniac. But even with that said, like I've taken dogs that I just competed with, that have never hunted, that are grand champion, master hunters and may have master national plates, and just because they have those titles does not mean they're going to be great hunting dogs Like they have. It's a completely different world.
Speaker 2:I've taken dogs that have all those titles and they get out there and they're like what do I do with my hands Where's?
Speaker 2:You know, this is something I've never seen before and it may take them 20 hunts before they really figure out what's happening.
Speaker 2:So like, just because they have all these titles doesn't mean they're going to be able to go to a duck blind and just blow you away, because it's not something that they're used to seeing, you know they're used to. A bird's going to come out from here, from a gun station that's hidden somewhere out there, and they're watching where you're pointing this gun to, where you put them in a pit blind, they're by on their own and they've got to look out there and find it. Or if you're in a big blind and you put them in a dog hut to the side, there's no way for you to help them to the side. There's no way for you to help them Like it's on them. So just because they have a grand champion title or an SRS title doesn't mean they're going to be fantastic hunting dogs, and vice versa. You can have a fantastic hunting dog that will pick up every bird you ever shoot. That may not necessarily be a great test dog, yeah, and that's just the way it is let me ask you this.
Speaker 1:This is a question for personal reasons. So if you got a dog that you want to compete with because you just like doing it, because it's fun an amateur guy like me and this is me we're talking about here um and I'll, you know, I'll take my dogs I actually leave them with a buddy of mine to guide up in south dakota and let them run pheasant for six, seven weeks. Then I'll go up there when opening day starts. They run it at Paul Nelson Farm. Then I'll go up there when opening day starts and hunt them myself and bring them back. All the experts I talk to. Of course there's a few different opinions, but you lose all the stuff you've trained for for hunt tests when you do stuff like that. What's your view of that, or what advice would you give me?
Speaker 2:You know, when I guided with a lot of the dogs I trained, or if I sent dogs home for hunting, my biggest thing was try to hold them to the same standards. Don't accept them breaking. Don't accept them running. Don't accept them running down the bank to go get a bird. If they give you cast refusals and you know they can see you, there needs to be a consequence for it. As long as you're holding to that standard, I don't feel like you lose a whole lot.
Speaker 2:Now I used to have this one particular dog named Trigger. He was one of the best dogs I had my career. He had five grand passes. He was six for six at the master national. He was an srs champion and he'd go home to duck hunt every year and he'd come back and he'd just be a disaster. And I always used to tell jack do you know how good he'd be if you just wouldn't do all this? He said look, I pay you to fix it. And he's right, that's what he did. He paid me to fix it. Um, you just's right, that's what he did he paid me to fix it?
Speaker 1:You just give me some good advice, because I'm sitting here thinking Clark, I let my dog bust, you know break on shooting Sandhill Crane in Lubbock, and then I wonder when I get back why you can't do steadiness work anymore or honor Right. Right, I mean, it's got to be consistent.
Speaker 2:You have to be consistent and if you say it's okay today, then you can't say it's not okay tomorrow. That's not fair. You have to be consistent and fair in what you ask of them.
Speaker 1:The only dog I've ever seen that hunted.
Speaker 2:That had an issue that I couldn't fix was at the Grand you have to do an upland in the last series so they have to quarter and flush, flush a bird and be steady to the wing and shot. Well, I had this one dog that was phenomenal, like he was an incredible animal. I got him to the upland the fifth series. Four times at the grand I passed zero with him. Zero because his owner took him pheasant hunting every year and he thought it was the greatest thing ever that his dog was the first one to the bird every time and what else did?
Speaker 1:he shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean it didn't matter what I did to him training, when that bird flushed and when they shot the race was on bud, he wasn't sticking around and that was just something I never could fix to where he could get that grand title. It wasn't because he wasn't that caliber a dog, he just had that Achilles heel because he was let get away with that so much. You know it's this is what I'm allowed to do in this situation, um, which could have been easily avoided. But you know just that's. Sometimes it happens that way that's.
Speaker 1:That's really. Yeah, you've opened my eyes up here. That was worth the podcast for me right there. So, clark, you've been doing this 20 years, right at 20 years. Yes, sir, what got you into it? Do you do it as a?
Speaker 2:kid? No, no, I grew up duck hunting. No, no, I grew up duck hunting. We had an amazing spot in the Mississippi Delta right next to a guy that name was Billy Dunham. He was the world's largest cotton broker for a while and he had an amazing place and we bordered him. And the way I grew up duck hunting. My dad had dogs. He trained it by water dog and you know I grew up having labs that would retrieve our ducks.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest, I was fooled as far as duck hunting as a kid Like I thought the way you duck hunted is. You got up at daylight, went out and you shot a four or five men, limited mallards by nine, 10 o'clock and you came back because that's what we did almost every day. Now, when I got into college and I started hunting public land, I learned that was not necessarily the case. But you know, the first dog I have is a dog named Max. The girl I was dating at the time bought him. I really didn't want him. She was like, look, this dog is going home with us, whether or not you keep it or not. I was like, well, I guess this is the dog I'm getting and I didn't know anything about the hunt test stuff. I actually sent him off to a pro trainer in Mississippi named Ronnie Lee and Ronnie had him for a little while and I got him back and I was just doing some handling drills and a buddy of mine that I went to high school with saw me doing that out at Grenada Lake where I'm from it's Grenada, mississippi and he stopped and was talking. He's like hey, man, you need to go to this thing called Hunt Test with me this weekend. This was in February. This is after duck season. I was like, man, I don't give a crap about any of that stuff, I just want a dog to go get my ducks. He said well, that's what it's all about. I was like all right, you twisted my arm, I'll go to it.
Speaker 2:So we went and watched Seasoned and I was just blown away at these season dogs. And he said if you think that's cool, let's go check out Finished. And when I watched Finished I was like I'm going to have one of those. And this was in February. I got that dog's starter title that February. In April he got a season title. In October he got his HRCH and the next spring he ran the Grand and went out in the fourth series. So to say I dove in headfirst would be an understatement, and that was my first dog. I was very blessed. He ended up with seven Grand Passes. He was a master hunter. He's in the HRC Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1:Gee, your first dog man. I was blessed your first real dog, yeah.
Speaker 2:But looking back at it, man, I really didn't know what the hell I was doing.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say who's teaching you to train? I mean, you had never done that right.
Speaker 2:I was throwing birds for Ronnie Lee, okay, and I learned a lot from him during that time and he helped me tremendously starting that and then at that point in time to become a pro. You know, somebody asked me to train their dog and next thing I knew I had two, and then I had four, then I had eight and then I had 16. And I was going to college at Mississippi State and I had like 160 college credit hours but still no degree, because I kept bouncing around, I didn't know what I wanted to do and finally I was like you know what? This is just what I want to do, this is what I'm going to do. So that's what I did. I dropped out of college and I started training dogs and this is where I am now today. I don't really regret it.
Speaker 1:So this dog that you all bought, this first dog, was it hunting bred lines or did you even know what it was?
Speaker 2:I didn't know what it was. His father was a master hunter that was pretty well bred. The mother wasn't all that well bred and he was just a spectacular dog. And what's cool is I still am running dogs off of that line, like that stroker dog is a grand puppy from Max, and now the dog I got second in this last crown is a son off of stroker, so it's a great, great grandson of Max. So it's pretty. And now I've got tombs puppies, so now I've got great, great, great grandsons and daughters of them. So it's pretty cool to still have that lineage going.
Speaker 1:That is cool. So now, how did you end up in Kansas?
Speaker 2:Well, I had my own kennel for about 13 years maybe a little longer and I was approached by somebody about going to work with them and partnering. I did that for a little while. It just didn't quite work out. Then I spent three years working at Mossy Pond. Retrievers Did really well there. When I was there, lyle approached me about coming to work there, asked if I'd be interested, and I said you know, business is business. I'm always interested in talking about what opportunities are and Lyle gave me an offer that was really good and I ended up in north of Kansas City. We're just outside of St Joseph, missouri. I've been there. It'll be three years in July, I believe.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so you've not been there that long.
Speaker 2:No, no, I haven't been there that long. Okay, let people joke. I'm kind of like the hired gun.
Speaker 1:I'll go to whoever pays me the most money to do it. I came out in west texas chasing money. Uh, I've practiced law in kentucky tennessee and in east tennessee, east kentucky.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, so you get it. Yeah, yeah, that's why I'm here. You know, there's nothing, there was just no way to make good living. Uh, still here, that's hard to believe. When you're getting ready to go on your next hunting trip, make sure you pack the most efficient and reliable ammunition on the market. Migra ammunition brings you the most diverse loads on the market. Migra's patented stacked load technology is the epitome of efficiency two shot sizes stacked together to create the most diverse and efficient line of shot shells in the industry. It doesn't matter what flyway, what state or what the weather. The standard remains the same at migra reliable loads that perform in any condition every single time. We're proud to have migra ammunition as a sponsor for gundog nation. But yeah, so, um, so you, you dropped out of Mississippi State with enough hours to have a degree. You just didn't have it in one area. I didn't have it in the right areas.
Speaker 2:I mean I kept bouncing around, like when I first went. I went for civil engineering, then I went into business and then I went into marketing and then the last thing I was in was land development and management, and then I can't remember what the other thing I did, but I just bounced around everywhere. I didn't know really what I wanted to do, so it just was like well, I know I love this and this is what I want to do, so this is what I did.
Speaker 1:Do you still like getting up and doing what you do every day?
Speaker 2:I do. Now I'm not going to say that there aren't days that it's hard to and people don't realize the commitment it takes to be successful in the sport. I put it on paper last year I worked 322 days of 2024. Worked 322 days. Worked 322 days. You put that into perspective like the average person, just with weekends off, is getting over. What is it? 180 days or something through the year. I mean a lot. I ran 43 weekends I was away from home. That's just weekends. So I mean, out of 53 weekends you're only home 10. It's tough.
Speaker 1:But when you're home you don't know what to do. Do you only home 10. It's tough, but when you're home you don't know what to do. Do you?
Speaker 2:You're like no, no, yeah, I'm so ready to get home. I've got a newborn son at home, so that's going to make it even more difficult this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's part of doing this for a living. If you want to be successful at it at the higher levels, you kind of have to eat, sleep and breathe it. That's just the way it is, and you have to be humble about it and realize that you don't know everything. I learn new things every single day in this sport, and it's always changing. Sports changed a lot since when I started 20 years ago, so you have to evolve yourself as the game changes too, Clark, the changes you've seen.
Speaker 1:is it mostly the competition, the quality of dogs, the trainers? What do you see as the big changes since you started this game?
Speaker 2:The quality of dogs has definitely changed For the better. Yes, yes, in my opinion. Yes, they're a lot more intelligent. They don't require the use of pressure that they did 20 years ago. You can get a lot more done with less pressure, a lot more intelligent. The breeding's just better. As far as the actual testing goes, people have become a lot more knowledgeable about where to put birds, where dogs don't want to go, and I think that's just an evolution of the dogs have gotten better, so the tests have to get harder and I think that's just an evolution of the game. Yeah, I mean, as far as training goes, I think training has evolved a little bit. I've seen a lot of trainers come and go in 20 years and sometimes you'll see trainers that the game just kind of passes them by, that they just can't evolve to the way it's starting to change. But the ones that stick around, they'll tell you that they don't do the same thing that they did 10 years ago, because what they did 10 years ago won't work today.
Speaker 2:So you have to ever evolve with what you're doing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you you'll have to be humble here for a second, and maybe I don't want you to give up your trade tickets or anything but Clark, what do you think makes you stand out? Let's just make that a little easier to swallow what do you think is a secret to your success? I mean, I've never seen, I don't know that I've met anyone that took their very first dog to the level you have. I've never heard of such a thing. That's crazy, and I train dogs, so that makes me feel even worse. But what makes you stand out? What makes you different?
Speaker 2:I mean I really don't know. I mean I work really hard at what I do.
Speaker 1:Is it your ability to read?
Speaker 2:dogs. That may be part of it, but I like to have a connection with every dog that I'm training and not just to stand at the line. Go get a bird with every dog that I'm training and not just to stand at the line. Go get a bird, like I feel like dogs will give you so much more effort if they feel like you really care about them, like you're really on their team.
Speaker 1:And what?
Speaker 2:do you do to get?
Speaker 1:there. How do you get there as a trainer?
Speaker 2:I use a lot of affection and praise in training, which a lot of people don't Like. If a dog's struggling with something and we're working at it when they get it, I make a really big deal about it. You know I may throw them three or four happy bumpers when they get back and like I'm their biggest cheerleader. One of the things you'll see me do that you don't see a lot of people do like if I'm in the holding blind about to go run a dog, it's not uncommon for me to have that dog laid over on its back and me rubbing its belly in the holding blind, or it's hugging me in the holding blind. I just feel like that's a part of the game that a lot of people miss is they got to feel like you're on their team. They can't feel like you're just this dictator at all times and I feel like you get a lot more out of those dogs if they really feel like you're on the same team and they trust you. So I mean I really don't think I do anything special or different.
Speaker 2:You know I just put in a lot of work and a lot of time with each individual dog and one of the things I did on a podcast not long ago I talked about like each individual dog. You know we have to, as trainers, adjust ourself to what each individual dog does. And I refer back to, like Andy Reid for the coach of the Chiefs, one of the big things that makes him successful. He thinks he needs to let the players be who they are and don't try to change them. And I'm kind of the same way with the dogs, like I want to see their personality, I want them to be who they are and we're going to make the best out of what they are. We're not going to change what they are and I feel like that helps get a lot out of them.
Speaker 1:So when you've got a dog like your Hall of Fame dog, the next dog you took after him. You didn't try to make him the same dog, right, I make him the same dog, right?
Speaker 2:I mean, I tried to make him as good, right.
Speaker 1:But he was different, wasn't he? He was different.
Speaker 2:Every one of them is different, yeah, and some of them are going to have better, be stronger at things than the other one is, and you just kind of have to learn what that is and learn what makes them tick. You know, maybe this dog. Every now and then you have to get into them a little bit to get the most out of them, or to have their respect, or this other dog. You got to be a full time cheerleader for him and make them think they can conquer the world every day. It's just kind of have to adjust to what they need.
Speaker 1:Well, you gave me another extremely valuable tip just a few minutes ago. I'm actually going to write it on my hand next time I go on a holding blind. But your advice about what you do in the hold and blind, I do the total opposite. I'm in there, I'm a ball of nerves. I've actually had a judge two times come up to me and say Ken breathe.
Speaker 1:She got my ear it's a lady and she said breathe, and I'm sitting there, and now you're over there playing with your dog's belly. That's what I need to be doing, so I can relax and the dog relax.
Speaker 2:I put the dogs in a hold and blind every single day I'm training so they go in the hold and blind. They have to sit there, be calm. Now, a lot of the times I'll put them in there and I'll make them sit there for two or three minutes by themselves before we go to the line, but I feel like a dog that is relaxed and not nervous.
Speaker 1:They're going to perform a lot better than one that's all wound up or has anxiety.
Speaker 2:Now what you're saying right there, you're forgetting to breathe. Did you play sports growing up? I played football, yeah, okay. So when you were a freshman playing varsity, the game was extremely fast for you. By the time you were a senior, the game had slowed down a whole lot and you could process things. It is no different when you start running hunt test. So right now you're just starting the game is. It's an adrenaline rush, it's just flying.
Speaker 2:Yes, as you run more and you get more experience, that game's going to start to slow down. It's. It's no different than playing sports for you as a handler, and as you run more, the game's going to slow down. You're going to be able to process things better. It's just, it's something new and it's an adrenaline rush for the handler. And I always tell people like, just take your time and learn from it. Don't feel like that. It's a sprint to the goal of what you want to do. Enjoy the journey of it. And I feel like so many people don't do that. They're just so set on getting to a certain point they don't enjoy the journey to get to that point you just now you're gonna cause me to go out and buy a holding blind.
Speaker 1:I never even clark. That's genius, I mean. I know it's probably simple to you, but I've just never. That's never even hit my radar. But what a great idea to keep that in your training yard.
Speaker 2:Dogs are creatures of habit.
Speaker 2:So, every single day. They go train. You put them in the holding blind and they have to sit there calmly and quietly for a little while and then they come out and train. Well, when you go to the hunt test and you put them in the holding blind, it's nothing new. Like my older dogs that have done it a lot, I can sit them at the holding blind at the master test, and dogs that have done it a lot, I can sit them at the Holben blind at the master test and I can literally walk off and go have a conversation with somebody and they'll be sitting over there in the Holben blind because that's what they're used to doing. It's nothing new. It's the same thing that they do every day.
Speaker 1:And all it is is just conditioning them to do that.
Speaker 1:Well, you know I'm going to be honest. I've subscribed to the hunt test and I've been a Cornerstone member since 2016. I was one of the founding members, but anyway, I don't have time to watch it and I want to watch it every week that you guys are on and I miss it and I've not got to utilize it. But now I see why they've got you teaching the Hunt Test Guide, because you've taught me more right here in 10 minutes and I might have learned in 10 years. So I'm going to keep going.
Speaker 2:I've gotten to the point. I've been very blessed in my career and my wife and I talked about this a bunch. Like every goal that I've set in the hunt test game I've accomplished. I've been very blessed and now I've gotten to the point that, honestly, I enjoy teaching people probably more than I actually do training and running nowadays. Now sometimes it comes back to bite me in the butt Like I taught Carter a lot when I was at Mossy Pond. I'm not taking credit for everything, but you know he's learned a lot on his own, but he's won the last two crowns and beat my butt at it. And then I take my bird boy to the last SRS I run. It's his very first one. He gets second and I get fourth. I'm like God dang, I got to start teaching you some guns.
Speaker 1:You're too good to teach.
Speaker 2:But man, it's cool to watch that, to see people succeed. I've got a buddy sitting next to me over here. That's a pro trainer in Texas. He'd worked with me years ago when I wore my first crown and now he's got his own kennel and first grand he ran. He came and kind of got a butt kicking in it and we talked about the stuff that that needed to change. And then the last one he went six out of nine at this past grand. So I mean to see people that you've helped succeed and to me that means the world. To me I got to see him do real well. I got to see two hunt test guide members run their first grant and both pass. And man, that's to me that's better than passing every dog I got at the grant. I mean to see people succeed and know that you helped them somehow is, to me is very, very rewarding.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I had roadie best on here a while back and one of the things he said about the srs we talked about it a lot but was how, how much talent the amateur class has now like?
Speaker 2:these amateurs that show up, it's loaded, it's loaded. Um, you have to have a special dog, and it used to be like an amateur could take a very nice dog and go play. But now the amateurs have just as much experience as the pros that are running, and it's not uncommon to see an amateur have a lower score at the end of it than some of the pros. He told me that I mean it happens.
Speaker 2:I'm glad they're staying over there in their amateur division and leaving us alone. But yeah, the amateur division has gotten. It's pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:That's a. You know I have to work for a living too and I wish that I could be a better trainer. But you know I don't want to be a pro trainer, I just want to be a better amateur trainer and I do all I can to learn. But you know it's so. My experience, clark, is I've done protection dogs for a long time and I still do that. But man and I have all gun dog breeds on this show right? I don't just talk about retrievers. I have, you know, brittany's English Cocker Spaniel, I have Coonhounds on here and everything. So my point is and I've said this many times retriever training, man is just so much more complex and time-consuming than any other dog training that I know of.
Speaker 2:It's very different. But you kind of perked my interest there when you said you did detection stuff. Yes, One of the most knowledgeable dog people that I've ever been blessed to spend time around did Schutzen for a while. I don't know if you're familiar with Schutzen. I did Schutzen back 20 years ago pretty heavy. The Nationals is a big event in the US for that, I believe. Well, he won that multiple times.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, he's a retriever trainer now and he was a retriever trainer before he did Schutzen.
Speaker 2:Then he went to Shudson and now he's back retriever training.
Speaker 2:He's been the high point derby kennel in field trials for the last couple years and he actually incorporated a lot of the stuff that he did with Shudson with the retriever work and a lot of that stuff I try to incorporate with what I do with my dogs and I feel like that's a part of the way the game has changed. It's a lot more on a psychological level than pressure level now and in some ways I feel like the Shudson world as far as dog psychology is light years ahead of what we are in the retriever game when you really start diving into the psychological aspect of a dog and how they tick and how they work. In the past few years, I'd have to say, like me, diving into that has helped me tremendously to become a better trainer and handler, Because it's just a whole different outlook of how dogs function and how they work and how they learn, and I feel like if you can put those two worlds together in a way, it really helps you that's kind of what I'm trying.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've achieved that, but so right now, since hunt test season's about over in texas for me, I got one more hrc to run, my dogs just started dogs and uh, I'll start back doing psa, which is kind of it's like the new schutzen. They still have schutzen, but psa. The big difference is they have a component for like carjacking and you know, gunshots and when you're walking with your dog, stuff like that real realistic stuff, street stuff, uh. But anyway, my, I train over with a guy named will gorito in lamita, texas. He has a pretty big bike club there and you know, like you guys, you Rhodey's, the people of your Chris Rudd, you guys that know this stuff like crazy.
Speaker 1:He's that smart in dog training too and he does protection dogs and man, he can read a dog so fast. It's so crazy. Another person can read a dog like nobody ever saw. I went to a seminar three weeks ago at Ronnie Smith's kennels in Susanna. That man can read a dog. I've never seen anything and he never talks to it, puts his hands on it. It's almost like you know, I got to tell this funny story. I might have to watch myself. So I'm from southeast Kentucky right, so there are still churches in the region that take up serpents.
Speaker 1:I don't have to say. And my buddy said he's. Actually I knew a guy back home that would catch rattlesnakes and sell them to the churches and he told me that preacher come and got that rattlesnake out and said he, and said he laid it on the truck and just rubbed it so that that snake, just like it's paralyzed, just laid there and that's. It's kind of how ronnie smith I've seen him take a dog and just rub down its spine. It was all amped up and nervous and real, like real, no, no confidence. And he'll just sit there and do that, never say a word, and that dog, it's amazing. But I know Ronnie probably think I'm crazy for using that analogy, but that's what I think of you know, when I see him do that.
Speaker 2:Roddy, I thought about you rubbing a serpent.
Speaker 1:Because every time I hear that guy tell that story I get chill bumps. You know, thinking about a daggone rattlesnake, I use a lot of the.
Speaker 2:I mean I use a lot of the. I mean I guess you could say it comes from them. Like years ago I started using that Delmar Smith Wonderlead and that's man. I'm a firm believer in using that. On obedience, like I think that is one of the greatest tools ever invented, especially when you're teaching them to walk at heel and stuff. I mean you're putting all that responsibility on them and they create the pressure on themselves. So a lot of the stuff that I do as far as teaching dogs to be steady and obedient at the line is just kind of an extension of that. I take that Delmar Smith Wonderlead and I change it into an e-collar so when they make mistakes, I don't say anything to them, I immediately start applying light pressure and it puts all the responsibility on them and they have to be on the responsibility of where they should and should not be. So I took some of that from them, I mean. But that Delmar Smith Wonder Wonder lead to me is one of the greatest inventions for dog training ever done.
Speaker 1:I've got. I've got two in my dog bag. I keep a training bag on me all the time and that you're exactly right. And you know, like I said, I'm not at your level by any means, but I surely believe in that wonder lead. And you know, the Delmar Smith book was probably one of the first dog training books I read and it was the Bible for a long time in this world. You know our training world. But they're good people too. I learn a lot up there. But I go see. I've also been to Napopo school, which is based for protection dogs. I've been through the silver and gold and I'll tell you something, clark, it's a daggone, it's a tough school. I mean the testing and stuff, the gold school. You're actually hands-on with dogs. On your test day I think I had to work. Five dogs, you know, and some of them dogs, is pretty ranked up Malinois and stuff. You know I've got.
Speaker 2:I actually would love to know more about that.
Speaker 1:You would love it. I promise you would love it.
Speaker 2:I've talked like the guy I was telling you about. He's big into that kind of stuff and um, the Nipopo and like, and I've talked to him and it is so much on the psychological level compared to the way that we train dogs in the retriever world as far as hunt test goes, it's a lot of physical pressure involved and I try to gear the way I train more to I want the dog to do the right thing because it wants to do the right thing, more so that I want it to do the right thing because it fears doing the wrong thing, want it to do the right thing because it's fear is doing the wrong thing. And I feel like that the way they teach is more along those lines of we want it to do the right thing because it wants to do the right thing, not because it fears doing the wrong thing. And I feel like that makes better dogs in the sport that I play.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know they use a collar in the popo, but it's a lot. It's a lot, it's just for motivation, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's very it's used very differently.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's actually it's part of the test to use that collar they have and it's it's. It's it's complicated, yeah, but it's good. I really I got my money's worth there. I took the silver school under Bart Bellin who invented it, and then he's kind of retired.
Speaker 2:It was out of Springfield, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, he would come in from Belgium. He finally bought a place there in Springfield. It's right there, clark, in an Amish country. I was there in 21. It's a school and it was right in the heart of Amish country because you'd have to watch out for horses and buggies when you went to the class. And then I took this gold school off one of his, another guy from Belgium who lives near Lockhart Okay, yours Kershaw I might've butchered his last name, but yours and he's excellent and I've known him for probably six or seven years, matter of fact, he's got one of my.
Speaker 1:Southern. You'll love this. He's got one of my Barton Ramsey dogs. I had a pup off of Barton and I took it to the popo school with me at a Doberman and so he yours has got that dog doing narcotics detection training right now and it's going to be his dog, Not my, it's not even my dog. Awesome, Awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had so many conversations with people when they found out we were partnering with Cornerstone and all that. And man, I'll be honest, we had a dog when I was at Mossy Pond that I would have sworn was American. Bred like this son of a gun was good, good, good and we're like this dog can do anything. It'll be a grand champion, master hunter if you want. And then, sure enough, he came from Barton. I got one like that and I mean that dog was a real deal. The owner just wanted a nice gun dog. He's a professional baseball player and that's all he wanted. But I'm telling you that dog, if he would have wanted to make a grand champion, he would have been that. If he wanted to make a qualified all-age dog running trials, he would have been that.
Speaker 2:You know the people, that't, but you don't know the history of that. Like, are they well bred? I don't know, I don't know anything about that side of the world. Um, I mean I put a grand champion title, master, national hall of fame title on a british dog. That I mean he wasn't outstandingly bred but and I'm not going to say he was the greatest dog in the world for what I do, but he did it. I mean he got the job done and he was an amazing hunting dog. I mean phenomenal hunting dog.
Speaker 1:I've got one that I'm telling you. He's HRC seasoned and I took him through the junior starter just from my own experience and I'm getting ready to took him through the junior starter just from my own experience and I'm getting ready to take him through senior hunter for AKC and he's a. He's a British dog. I've got all my dogs are British but one my, my Floyd son, and they're they're wide. I mean. I mean when I take Maverick to hunt test, a lot of judges brag on him and they have no idea it's a British dog.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:I mean he takes off. He throws grass or mud, whatever the dirt's like. He takes off so hard and when he hits the water he parts the seat. I mean it's like he's walking on water. He's so driven. And I've got a female fox, red, that'll do the same thing. Right, right, but anyway, yeah, you're right, and I know they're turning around. And I've got an American dog and he's piss and vinegar hardcore, more so than any British dog I've got. And that Floyd son, that's an NFC or FC bred dog and I get the difference. Matter of fact, the best podcast I ever heard comparing the Breeds was Chris Rudd and Barton Ramsey talking about the differences in American and British dogs, and they did it. I think they nailed it because I've owned both. I own both still and they definitely nailed it. That's a great podcast for anybody that's listening. If you want to know the distinctions between British Labs and English Labs, we're talking hunting bred, not show dogs. Listen to that podcast.
Speaker 2:It's excellent yeah, they hit it off real well. They had a lot of things in common. They had no idea they had in common.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, you think they're going to, you know, like butt heads with their different ideology, but really they came to the same conclusion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, martin, and I do that all the time. We'll talk about training stuff and man, we have the same ideas, we just have different ways of getting there. That's right, and I always tell people you can take three dog trainers and put them in a room together and two of them will agree that the third one's doing something wrong. Amen, and that's just the way it is and ultimately is, if you're achieving the goal that you set forth, as long as you're getting there, there's not really a wrong way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're exactly right, Clark. I listen to lots of other podcasts. I don't actually even listen to mine. I listen to them one time after it's over to see how many mistakes I made. But I listen to lots of podcasts and, man, I learn from so many different. There's lots of podcasts and, man, I learned from so many different. There's lots of guys out there that I think are just so knowledgeable. You're one of them. I, if I see your name on a podcast, I listen to it. That's forever. Forever. Talk to you today and, uh, there's lots of guys I really respect and want to hear what they've got to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I listened to to podcasts as well, like I'll. I listened to Jimmy and to Jimmy and Adam a lot. They get some really good guests on there that I want to know what they think. Yeah, and I take things from that. I feel like the day that you think you know it all is the day that you're dying. As a trainer, I always feel like you can learn something from somebody.
Speaker 1:You know something, clark, you said it. I mean, I feel like I'm the luckiest guy in the world to have the opportunity to do this, because I learn from every guest I have. I have veterinarians on here from Texas A&M. I learn health, nutrition, training. You've taught me some stuff. I'm sitting here doing wrong myself and I'm like you. I've never had a know-it-all mentality and I never will. I I've never had a know-it-all mentality and I never will. I'll learn to the day I die and that's why I love this podcast, because I get to hear from people like you.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I said I've actually a lot of times. Heck, I did that with Chris Rudd. I was taking notes. He was my second podcast guest. Yeah, correct, yeah, it was just like wow, man, I was writing this stuff down. I thought, well, hold it, I can listen to this later, you know, and not take notes. But I started taking notes. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply. Based in Alabama, retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leashes are and they source them locally. They have anything you want. Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever training supply.
Speaker 2:Man he's uh Chris and I've been friends for a while and honestly, as far as doing like young dog work, he's as good as anybody I've ever seen. He did the young dog work on my little young dog, fang Fang, at 14 months old, could go pass a master test. I mean he's good, good. I wanted him to run some field trials and me, having 24 master and grand level dogs on the truck, I don't have time to be throwing him a ton of field trial work. So I put them with with somebody for a little while to let him run some derbies and I'll get them back, cause my ultimate goal with him is sure he'll be a grand champion, but I want him to be a crown champion and I'm part of the thing with building those.
Speaker 2:I built Stroker from the ground up. I built Trigger from the ground up, nav. I've had multiple dogs that have been finalists at the crown. I built from the ground up but I wasn't as busy as I am today. I had the time to be throwing them a lot of field trial marks as young dogs. Today I'm running 15 dogs at the Grand at the end of next month and when you're preparing 15 dogs for a Grand, that's all you have time to do. And then on top of that I've got master dogs that I've got to train and run. In there too, I just there's not enough hours in the day for me to break and say, hey, I need to run a field trial. Set up with this dog or two.
Speaker 1:Well, clark, let me ask you to break this down, because I can't even fathom 15 dogs. Let's break it down to one. What do you do to prepare one dog? I know it's probably hard for you to imagine, since you've never done one, really. But how do you prepare one dog for the grand what? What does five weeks prior look like?
Speaker 2:um, the bird placement of where you're putting your marks has to change tremendously, uh, compared to what you were doing, preparing for master. A regular weekend finish test um, specifically around water is a big thing because you're going to see a lot of splash birds in cover at the grand versus at a master test. Very rarely are you going to see a bird that splashes in the water. They're going to get out and go up a hill and pick up a bird or something. So you've got to change that. Every setup I run is going to have a gun involved an 870 shotgun and where the birds are going to come from is going to have a gun involved an 870 shotgun and where the birds are going to come from is going to be very hidden, so they've got to focus on where I'm pointing that gun in order to see the birds. So that's a big piece of it.
Speaker 2:When you're running blinds, you've got to be very on top of not allowing them to give you cast refusals, and what I mean by that? You have to make sure, if they give you a cast refusal, first and foremost you've got to make sure that they truly could see you, and if they could, there's got to be a consequence for it, because a cast refusal at the Grand, two in a row. Now you're on those ones that you don't want to be on, but you can't correct them unless you know for sure. They saw you.
Speaker 1:Because they don't know what to correct them for if not.
Speaker 2:Right. I really preach. There's only two things you should ever get onto a dog for, and that's lack of effort or defiance. They can't be defiant if they can't see you and they can't be defiant if you haven't taught them what's right in situations. So if I'm going to correct for a cast defusal, I want to make sure that it is defiant, Like it's. They really can see me. They just don't want to go that way. But those are the things that, as far as preparing one dog like live manners, they've got to be good, They've got to really swing with the gun and different types of bird placements and I'd be using a lot of decoys and setups in situation on marks to where, if they veer out, let the decoys push them offline that they may not be able to recover from that to get the mark Because they'd like to utilize decoy placement in grand test.
Speaker 1:Very, I didn't realize that either. So in the grand this year you said is in Wisconsin, wisconsin, yep, at the end of May, Yep. I would need to really get up there and watch that.
Speaker 2:Come on up and you don't have 15 dogs in it. Yeah, I'm running 15 of them. Yep, oh man.
Speaker 1:Well, let me ask this the dog I assume you're not a breeder, are you?
Speaker 2:I don't do much breeding, you know I'll help put breedings together. The few breedings that I've done in my career have always been breedings that I personally wanted a puppy out of. Okay, so if you see me do a breeding it's because I want one of them. But I do help people put breedings together. But as far as personally breeding dogs I mean, I just I don't have the time. And raising a litter is a lot of work and it's even more work to properly socialize those puppies once they are to that stage and people don't realize how important that is. The socialization from that puppy from four to eight weeks old and what they're introduced to can be the difference in having the next grand champion or a dog that doesn't make a pass started. It makes a big difference and I just don't have time to dedicate myself to that.
Speaker 1:A lot of the dogs I assume the majority of the dogs you're training are client dogs.
Speaker 2:Yes, they're not.
Speaker 1:Kennington kennel pups. They're client dogs.
Speaker 2:Are you?
Speaker 1:selective in what you take to train.
Speaker 2:At some point, yes, but at the other side of it I'm doing this for a living. So if somebody wants to pay you to do it, you need to do it. But I'm one of those that I don't sugarcoat things Like. If somebody sends me a dog and says my end goal is a grand champion, if at any point in time I feel like that dog's not going to make what they want, I'm just going to tell them and it's nothing personal. But I look at it two ways. It's my reputation and it's your money on the line and I don't want to ruin either one of those things. So I am kind of selective.
Speaker 2:If somebody brings me a dog and they want a grand champion and I had a gentleman drop one off with me about a month and a half ago and that's his goal and I told him up front I was like the spring grand is more than likely completely out of the question and the fall grand may be pushing it and I'm just honest with people about it I'm not going to take a dog that I'm not 100% positive is capable of doing the work they're going to see presented to them.
Speaker 2:Now that doesn't mean they will do it. They are dogs. I mean, they can have bad days and they can screw things up. But I will tell someone pretty quick hey, you know, this is what your goal is. This is where we're at. This is a more realistic goal and sometimes people don't like to hear that because it's their child, essentially, and I get that. But yeah, I'm not super selective. I only have 24 holes on my truck, typically if the dog is not to the level they need to be to be running the setups, I'm running with those 24, we'll put them down on Lewis's truck until they are getting close to that level.
Speaker 1:Okay, clark, when you see a young dog, a pup and I know pups can four months can change into a different dog. Sometimes you never know what do you look for. When you finally see man, this pup's got potential. This pup could be SRS material. When do you make that assessment, and are you usually pretty right?
Speaker 2:when you make that assessment. You know to know if they're SRS material. You're not really going to know that young. You know I can watch one at three or four months old and tell you if that dog's got potential to do something. Now how far that's going to go, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And typically what I'm looking for is I want one that's bold, like outgoing, it's confident in itself and its environment, that it's around. It's not scared of different things that are happening around. It has a lot of prey drive, likes to retrieve, crazy about birds, like not intimidated by water. That's the big things. But all of the stuff I mentioned is all about their personality and their demeanor. You know it's a big key, but a lot of that has to do with how they're like what I said a minute ago big key, but a lot of that has to do with how they're like what I said a minute ago. From four to eight weeks and then from eight weeks to that four-month-old mark, how much socialization did that person do with them? What kind of environments did they subject that dog to to make it to where it's confident in itself in all those different situations? A lot of it has to do with how they're raised and how they're brought up.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree, they've got to have those core ingredients, but you have to develop the rest.
Speaker 2:Right. The rest of it you've got to develop. But you know, a cake's a lot better if you start with good ingredients before you put it all together. So it's the same thing with dog.
Speaker 1:I think I asked Chris Rudris rod this, not on a podcast, maybe just on a side question. I may have even texted him and I was like, if you were going to pick a pup from a breeding, what titles do you look for? And I believe correct me if I'm wrong, because you know chris way better than I do. I believe he told me he likes to see an fc sire and a grand damn mama.
Speaker 2:Yeah and a lot of people would say that I'm not necessarily looking at titles most of the time when I'm going to get a puppy. I'm more looking at demeanors and what the dogs are good at. The reason why I kept a puppy out of Stroker and Winter Chris's dog is. Winter is a fire-breathing dragon. I mean she loves it. Stroker was a very calm, demeanor type dog, didn't move with the line, just turned his head. He was very methodical and thought about everything he did as he did it if you watched him, ran To where Winter is more of. I'm going to go as fast as I can that direction until I get to the bird and I wanted something between that. I knew what those two dogs' traits and personalities are, what they're really good at and what they're not, and that's more of what I'm looking at and my past experience with puppies out of that, and to me that's more important than any titles. But you don't know that unless you've been involved in the game and spent some time around dogs that those particular dogs produce. But like when people call me to breed to Stroker, my first question is what's the female like? They tell me well, she's pretty laid back. Well, look, I'd love to breed to him, but this just isn't going to work. That's not what he needs to be bred to. He needs to be bred to something that would run through a brick wall to go get a bird. That's what produces the best puppies out of him.
Speaker 2:The dog I got second in the crown with this year is out of Stroker and a dog named Bailey who also runs the SRS. Bailey is the dog. When you start blowing the duck call and shooting the gun, she's screaming as the birds come out. So, and she created Tombs, who's one of the nicest dogs I've ever stood beside. So that's what you got to breed Stroker to, and that's more of. What I look for is are the crosses, demeanor and talent wise. What I'm looking for Beyond the paper.
Speaker 1:You're looking past the paper.
Speaker 2:I'm looking past the paper.
Speaker 1:I want to know that dog individually. You know I like that. I know this is a strange analogy, but my grandpa on my mom's side, he was into horse. He gambled on horses hardcore but he was pretty successful, if you can be successful at that. But anyway he knew the horse's lineage back a century both sides. You know mother and father. But before every race at Kingland Racetrack in Lexington, kentucky, he would go out and watch the horses, the jockeys take them out back and walk them around in front of everybody and he would go and watch them and you know see how they were acting before the race. That's how you bet it's similar to what you're talking about. You're doing a more extensive research course. He was too. He knew his stuff. But there's something to be said about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to know their temperament of them. I want to know what their strengths and weaknesses are and what are we doing to help their weaknesses or the bad things that I don't like about them. What are we doing to help their weaknesses or the bad things that I don't like about them? What are we doing to make those things better? That's what I'm looking at, and I think that winter stroker cross has been incredible. I mean, all those puppies have been really good.
Speaker 1:Will that breeding ever occur again?
Speaker 2:Yes, no, we're going to do it one more time. Whenever winter comes back in heat again, we're're gonna do it one more time. Um, whenever winter comes back and heat again, uh, we're gonna do it one last time. So that'll be through the third time we've done that breeding now, I've never seen.
Speaker 1:I've heard chris talk about his dog a lot and I've heard I've heard you mention your dog. What color are they?
Speaker 2:I've never seen the dogs uh, winter is yellow and stroker is black. But stroker is yellow factored um, and he has been known to throw some Fox red puppies. I've trained a grand champion master hunter that's Fox red out of stroker, named Costa. Um, we've, we've got some puppies coming up out of him there. I feel like you're going to be pretty nice too, so, but that all that line goes all back to the first dog I ever got into this game with. So that's pretty special to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, clark, do you have a waiting list for people wanting to train you, wanting you to be the trainer?
Speaker 2:I meant to say yes, but typically the dogs that want me to train them have to go through our young dog program before they ever get to me.
Speaker 1:And what does that consist of?
Speaker 2:So typically if you're sending us a puppy, it's going to go to Louis first, who does all our young dog work, and he does an excellent job with them. Once they get to a certain level they're going to step up to my truck and then I'll start working on them to build from there.
Speaker 1:Usually? What age does that range?
Speaker 2:I know it's different with each dog, probably, but Typically they're going to be around 18 months to two years old. When I get them They'll be, you know, senior level or above, and a lot of the times Lewis will have them like right there at master level before they jump up to my truck.
Speaker 1:So what Lewis does is not an easy job, is it?
Speaker 2:No, hell no.
Speaker 1:And I wouldn't want his job. Yeah, I was going to say he's got the bad end of the stick there.
Speaker 2:But that's what he loves. I mean, that is Lewis's passion is building those puppies up, and he's great at it. And I'm glad he's there and I'm glad that's his passion, because I mean I don't mind doing young dogs, but it is not my passion, it takes a special person, don't it really?
Speaker 2:It does. It's kind of like you know it takes a special person to run a daycare and that's kind of what I equate it to Great analogy, like I mean when they're on my truck. By that point, you know all I'm doing is polishing. You know I'm taking this rough animal and I'm polishing it into the best dog it can be. He's done all the hard part. Now I've done the hard part for years on my own and if I had to do it again I would, but I'd just rather not. I've gotten to the point where I keep 24 advanced dogs and I always equate it to you can be a jack of all trades and be mediocre at all of them, or you can be a master of one, and Lewis is a master at building those young dogs and honestly, they progress so much quicker when you have just one person doing that type thing, rather than that person having to do young dogs jump to do a master set up. It's just a lot on one person.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good way to divide it up, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it works out really well.
Speaker 1:It's more consistent for the dog too, right?
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%. Yeah, Now there is an adjustment period when they come to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because the way I train is a little different and the standard that I expect them to be held to in some areas is different and there's an adjustment. But after a month or two that dog will fall in place and understands kind of what I expect out of it versus what Lewis expected out of it. So there is a little growing learning curve.
Speaker 1:Clark, since you are one of the instructors on the Hunt Test Guide, or maybe the instructor on the Hunt Test Guide, if you could give one piece of advice to people like me and you've given me a lot tonight, so something different that you've not already given me what's the best piece of advice you would give to a person, young or old, starting the hunt test game?
Speaker 2:Be consistent in whatever you do, like what you ask the dog to do, like what your standard is, needs to be consistent, like what we were talking about you let your dog break on a hunt and then the next day you're getting on to him for breaking.
Speaker 2:You have to be consistent in what you expect of of them and you have to have a high standard.
Speaker 2:However and I preached this in the seminar that we sell in the Hunt Test Guide your standard can only be equivalent to the dog's level of understanding. So if we're just coming out of basics and obedience, our standard has to be really high on that basics and obedience because we just taught it and this is what we're setting the standard for the rest of its life, of what we expect out of it. Now we just start teaching it how to handle and start learning how to run blind retrieves. Our standard for that dog cannot be the same as the dog that we've got right next to it that's already a hunting retriever champion or a master hunter, because the understanding that that master hunter has is completely different than this dog that we're trying to build to run seasoned. So our standard has to be equivalent to the dog's level of understanding and I feel like if we're consistent with that one thing as they grow, it'll help you tremendously in your training and your success in hunt test.
Speaker 1:Excellent. I love it All right. So before we wind up, Clark, I know you got a heck of a schedule. Tell everybody how they can find the hunt test guide and tell them what it is. Let's give a plug for yourself. It's a good program. I'm a subscriber. Before I even knew you. I'm a subscriber.
Speaker 2:That's how I knew who you were so, um, lyle and I both are instructors on the hunt test guide. Uh, lyle has the most master national plates out of any trainer there is out there. Uh, he's won the most srs crowns as well. He's won seven, um, so you got both of us on there. Uh, what is is basically we're just trying to help the average person be more successful at Hunt Test.
Speaker 2:We have a monthly subscription which gives people access to the setups we're running and we video it and we try to break it down what we're doing and why we're doing it and what to expect out of the dogs and how we handle mistakes. We also, within that membership, we do Q&A, typically hour-long sessions, twice a month. Now, those Q&As are recorded, so it's not like if you miss it you can't watch it. All of those are in that database. So if you're driving on a long trip and you want to click on and listen to that, you can go through all those Q&As. You want to click on and listen to that, you can go through all those Q&As.
Speaker 2:We also have courses within that that are for sale and available. You don't have to be a member to buy those, but if you are a member you do get a discount on those, and there are courses that we've started so far, basically hitting the places that I feel like people have missed. There's a lot of basics courses out there on obedience, collar condition, force, fetch, casting, so we started with our courses, taking off from there, the pieces that we feel like people miss in transitioning from like a started dog to a seasoned dog and to finish, so those courses kind of take off on that.
Speaker 2:So we've got courses that cover pattern blinds, how to properly use them, how to teach dogs how to run blinds in conjunction with marks, how to teach dogs to swing with a gun for HRC stuff. We've got swim by in there and some water pattern blinds. And then there's also a three-day seminar that we have available to be purchased. That I did in Florida. That is the whole three days. It's a lot of footage. It'll probably take you a week and a half just to watch the thing, but it's three days worth of footage of me helping dog and handlers talking a lot about dog psychology, how to correct dogs, when to correct dogs and how to read dogs and what they're telling you. So a lot of that's in there. A lot of the stuff we talked about today is on there and you can actually watch it and visualize what we're doing and why we're doing it. But the ultimate goal of the Hunt Test Guide is to help the average person be successful, because I feel like I remember when I first started I felt like I was on an island and there wasn't anybody out there that was just willing to help me. So this was kind of our way to help people. You can find us at thehunttestguidecom.
Speaker 2:All of the courses and the memberships are for sale on there. I think there's two types of memberships we've got. We've got a yearly one, which I think is $9.99. And then there's another one that is I can't remember what we changed it to recently that gives you the yearly one, just gives you the stuff for that year, so 2025, you're going to see all the stuff we did in 2025. But if you have the other one, you get to see the last, all the 2025 and the previous two years, which is a huge database of knowledge. I mean, it's two to three setups a week for the last two years, all the Q&As for two years. It's a lot of knowledge that's at your fingertips whenever you want it. Grand setups for the last two and a half years they're all on there.
Speaker 1:Um, grand setups for the last two and a half years they're all on there, so you get to see what we're doing and how we're doing it to prepare for the grand master national in the crown, all that stuff's on there. You know, I I told you before we started, I, I want to kick myself, but I've subscribed, I'm a subscriber, to the hunt test guide and I've only got to watch bits and pieces. I just, you know, I work like crazy and I have my own kind of business and I'm a land man too and I've got a ranch, I've got dogs and I've just got to make myself, you know, sit down and watch it, because I'm losing out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now I'm talking to you, I feel horrible.
Speaker 2:I'm nonstop with this stuff. I mean, last week we were trying to do this podcast and I was running 22 master dogs in Lake Charles Louisiana. Come home for three or four days. And now I'm running 20 master dogs in this one. Get home and have to hit the ground running preparing for the grand. So I get it. I mean there's stuff I try to do to better myself, like I'm reading a book right now called Husband After God that I've been trying to keep up with every day. But, man, I'm so busy sometimes I have to just stop myself and say, hey, you need to stop for a minute and do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I've got books that I want to read. I'll get Ronnie Smith. I've got all kinds of dog books England and everywhere else and I'll start them. I can't ever finish them, you know, because I'm just always on the go. I don't stop either, and I'm sure I know you're probably worse than me. Well, clark, I've kept you a long time man. It's such a pleasure and privilege. I'm so glad I've got to catch you and I'm so thankful that you took time out of your busy schedule to be on here. Well, I appreciate you inviting me. Other people I've had on here. There's so many segments that I could do with you. I could do a series. So I really hope to get you on again sometime and catch you when you're not swamped in tests and trials.
Speaker 2:So, like November, december, january, that sounds good. That's the only time.
Speaker 1:I'm not Eating turkey and we'll get on here and eat turkey and dressing and talk.
Speaker 2:I'd love to do another one for you at any time, but if we can make it happen, I'd love to that sounds good, clark.
Speaker 1:thank you so much. It's a pleasure and I'll hit this and you stay with me for just a minute and then we'll quit. But thank you again from Gun Dog Nation, clark Kennington. Go check him out the Hunt Test Guide and follow him on social media. You can't go wrong if you want to learn how to train your dog. Purina ProPlan. Here at Gun Dog Nation we use Purina ProPlan for our dogs. We actually use the Sport Performance Edition, which is 30% protein and 20% fat, the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s for their joints. It also contains amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics. It's guaranteed to have live probiotics in each serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use it and we are so proud to be sponsored by Purina dog food.