Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Ben Leger - Georgian Bay Shed Dog Club, Canadian Antler Dogs, UKC Competitions
#31 Unlock a fascinating world of canine adventure with Ben Leger, founder of Georgian Bay Shed Dogs and Canadian Antler Dogs, as he reveals the thriving sport of shed hunting. This growing pastime taps into dogs' natural instincts to find and retrieve shed antlers – a behavior even observed in wild wolves and coyotes.
Ben walks us through how this accessible sport has evolved from casual recreation to structured competition through the UKC Elite Shed Dog Series. With championships, titles, and even scholarship opportunities for youth participants, shed hunting has created a vibrant community of dog enthusiasts. What makes this activity particularly appealing is its inclusivity – while Labs dominate the field, Border Collies, Malinois, and even small breeds like Pomeranians can excel with proper training.
The competitive format proves both challenging and exciting: dogs and handlers navigate football field-sized courses containing five hidden antlers, with top competitors completing the challenge in under two minutes. Ben shares invaluable training insights, from avoiding constant commands that might frustrate dogs to using targeted drills that build confidence and independence. His online training program at trainasheddogcom offers structured guidance for handlers looking to develop their dogs' natural talents.
Perhaps most compelling are the heartwarming stories from the shed dog community, including Ben's 11-year-old son who recently beat him in competition by nearly a full minute with their Hall of Fame dog. These personal connections highlight why so many families are drawn to this affordable, accessible sport that strengthens the bond between handlers and their dogs.
Whether you're an experienced gundog owner or simply looking for a new activity to enjoy with your canine companion, shed hunting offers a unique blend of natural instinct, teamwork, and outdoor adventure. Check out Canadian Antler Dogs online to discover how your dog might excel in this rewarding pursuit.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters mo pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project with called pitney myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on curb records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harley, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation.
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Speaker 1:Hey, good afternoon. It's Kenneth Witt coming to you today from Midland, texas, and it's a 20. This is another episode of Gundog Nation. I don't know what number is now, I've lost count. So today we're going to do you know all you guys know I try to have stuff that involves gundogs. I don't just have one particular breed. We talk about all hunting dog breeds. But also today we're going to diversify out a little bit more into something that I was really heavy into a few years ago and still enjoy it. I just don't get involved in the competition. We're going to talk today about shed dogs, antler shed hunting. It's a really neat, fun thing to do. I've got a guy that probably knows more about it than anybody here from Canada, from Ontario, mr Ben Ledger. Hey, ben, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you Ken.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to be here, Ben. First of all, let's start from the top. You are involved in an organization that's a club for antler shed hunting, correct, Correct? Yeah? What's the name of that.
Speaker 2:The club side of things is Georgian Bay Shed Dogs. It was the first dedicated shed dog club in Canada that we started. It's a non-for-profit club. And then, on the business side of things, I also run Canadian Antler Dogs, which is how we sell the scent over here and how we've developed our online training program and put it out to the public.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's right, you guys actually have an online training program.
Speaker 2:Correct. Yeah, it's more of a community and then set up with all sorts of videos sequential videos, basically how to train a shed dog from basic to intermediate to advanced, whether it's for recreation or competitions or trials. So we've got a couple of categories in there community, a private community, within that as well, and then we've been doing some live Zoom calls too for members.
Speaker 1:Now, you know, when I started shed hunting maybe probably a year after you did we talked about that earlier, before we got on air. I think I started around the end of 2013. At that time, ben and you started about a year before me, I think. Yep, there, to my knowledge, there was no uh, there was no titles in the UKC or AKC or any kind of real competitions in shed dog hunting. Is that? Is that about right?
Speaker 2:Uh, for as far as I know, I think so, I didn't start looking into competitions until about uh 2020. I know, I think so. I didn't start looking into competitions until about 2020. Myself, I was trying to train a recreational shed dog in 2012 when I first started. I believe NASHDA, which was North American Shed Hunting Dog Association, came upon shortly after that or around that time, but I did not compete in those, so so I'm not sure. So I I competed at ukc when, uh, when I got into them around 2020, uh, but the ukc elite shed dog series, I think, came into effect around 2017.
Speaker 1:okay, fairly new sport okay, and what are the title levels in the UKC for that sport?
Speaker 2:So you've got two classes. You've got the working class and the champion class. And as for titles, you've got a working title, a champion title, you've got a grand champion title, which you can get repeats of, so you can get grand champion too. Um, it's, it's uh points based in that case. Um, you've got elite shed dog, um, so elite shed dog would be, uh, three, uh wins, so first places after you got your champion shed dog title. Um, which kind of played against me. I've actually have one of my dogs. We have four wins in the champion class right now, but two of those wins were before he achieved his champion title, so they don't count towards elite shed dog, so we're still one away with that dog, okay. And then you've got a hall of fame as well. So hall of fame is elite title and a thousand points. Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a that's a lot. So how many passes do you have to have to reach a title Like you know, an HRC and AKC you need four passes at a hunt test normally to have a title.
Speaker 2:So in the chance. So let's back up a little bit. In working class you need five passes. It's a pass or fail. Five passes will get you your working title. Okay, in um champion class it depends if you're getting any podiums. So first place is 35 points, second place 30. Third place will be 25. Fourth place is 20 points and then a pass but no podiums is 10 points. So if you're just getting fifth to last, what you're passing, it would take 10 passes to get your champion title. If, if you have some podiums, then it would take less time. So it would take less time to achieve grand champion. And all that if you're hitting the podium because you're getting more points. Wow.
Speaker 1:Now you mentioned earlier, you do HRC as well, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do a little bit of HRC with my dog, nothing high level or anything like that. I'm the president of our local HRC club here, georgia Bay HRC, and I do. Actually I call my dog the season lifer so I've got a season title on my dog, on one of our dogs, and I always marshal and do test dog as the season stake. So I volunteer and I do the marshal and I do the test dog at a season stake with my dog Um. I'm not sure if I'm going to run them and finished or not. I probably could give it a shot, um, but he doesn't like tests very much.
Speaker 1:So, being being that you're in Ontario, canada, you do a lot of competing in in the States, correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct. Yeah, so we have our club here in Ontario that does a three-day shed event, so Georgia Bay Shed Dogs every spring, and there's two other clubs now in Ontario and one more that's shaping up to start this year as well. But then we travel to Michigan. We go to Shed Dog Nationals in Illinois every year at the end of March, so we go there. It's a really good time. Kids love it too. One thing when we talk about titles and classes and all that, there's a youth class as well in the UKC Elite Shed Dog Series. So the kids are running under the working series rules and they get ribbons and all that. And they run at nationals as well. At nationals they have a scholarship for the top four kids. So it's a really, really good thing that a bunch of people involved in the Elite Shed Dog Series get together, raise money through the year and make that happen for the kids.
Speaker 1:So that's one of the greatest part about it.
Speaker 2:It's just money towards towards schooling. Yeah, Wow. So they cut the kids a check for for school?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we have a scholarship. I was not aware of that.
Speaker 2:There is yeah, and that's talking about titles there is a national champion title as well. So whoever wins in champion class in nationals, they get that added to their name in the UKC. Wow.
Speaker 1:Do you see? You know, obviously, since you and I have started it's, it's grown. But what do you see currently trending in the popularity of the sport of antler shed hunting?
Speaker 2:So we see a lot of different things Um.
Speaker 2:What I'm seeing a lot is a lot of people with um retriever breeds or working breeds in general it doesn't necessarily have to be a gun dog um are looking into another sport that is not agility or scent work uh, and where they don't have to touch a dead duck or shoot a gun right like in hrc.
Speaker 2:So we're getting a lot of crossover. People are coming over from the agility obedience um scent work world and participating in those outdoors type of type of trials um, and then after they get hooked or their dogs get a title, they they actually want to go out in the wild and find some now. So it's a very accessible sport um. Sometimes I call it a glorified walk. You just never know when your dog is going to bring you one back Right Um. But I I think it's gaining popularity in that sense that it's not only hunters doing it now Um, just shed hunting in general is just more and more popular Um, and we can see that with all the rules being implemented across the States and stuff Um, there's a lot more people doing it now.
Speaker 1:We know it. To me I always considered it like a treasure hunt right, and you know one of the things that I learned, ben, is a lot of my shed hunting. I've done shed hunting in Texas and high fence ranches. You know it's kind of really easy. But I've hunted a lot in Southern Appalachia, you know, and Southeast Kentucky, where I'm from, and you know it was tough. I mean we would walk. I've walked dogs for a couple of hours in the mountains there and not find anything, and that's very common. What do you and you and I both know fooling dogs all of our lives Like we'll get into that with you too. But what do you do to keep a dog's drive, because you know when they get bored and they're not getting to, you know it's just like a retrieve. They never get that retrieve. What do you do to keep the dog's interest and making it fun and keeping them excited about shed hunting?
Speaker 2:So what I do and I can echo that, being from Ontario, for people that aren't familiar with Ontario we don't have a big deer population and sheds everywhere and all that. I also think that people have a misconception. Because you have a shed dog, you'll find more, but you'll find more cause. You'll head out more and and yeah, the dogs are covering more ground, but they still have to be there in order to find them. Um, but uh, to keep the dogs drive what? What I do especially that I do trials with our dogs and we talk about that in our program is I don't give them a hunt command when I get out of the truck.
Speaker 2:I've seen that more often than not actually destroy the dog's confidence, because now you're walking for four, six, maybe even eight hours, whatever, and you're telling the dog to find something that's not there. They're not going to get rewarded, it's, they're going to get deflated, um, and it can really destroy. I've seen good dogs actually get pretty, pretty, uh, uninterested in the sport after that just because they're not getting rewarded. So what I do myself is, at the truck, i'll'll make the dog hold a, an antler on the tailgate and then I throw it for them. They retrieve it. They bring it back, I put it back in the truck and I'm just going for a walk and I find the dogs just they're not hunting as hard as they would in a trial.
Speaker 2:But you got to think about it in a trial and I make you know I want that two minute time or three minute time for five antlers within a football field area. So I want my dog to hunt hard, hard, hard. So if I give them that hunt command, they're going to burn out right away and then if they don't find anything they may get bladed and stuff and lose confidence. So, um, yeah, we, we we've done that and and we've had no issues with it at all. Occasionally I'll carry one in my backpack as well and dump it and make sure the dog's successful, get downwind from it, whatnot, so that the dog finds success.
Speaker 1:But I normally, unless I can see an- antler, I will not give them a hunt command. You just, you know something. I did the opposite and now you've changed my perspective. I agree with what you're saying. I would always find it, find it, find it, you know, and just, I'm sure I said that more than they cared to listen to, and when you're doing that for hours, yeah, they probably didn't like hearing it and I got tired of saying it. But yeah, I like that, I like that advice, I like that training tip.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, and I did what you did, I always kept one in my. I always wore cargo pants, like old military pants or something, and I always kept a shed in my pocket to throw, and sometimes I even when I first started with pups I'd even keep it in a plastic bag, you know, zipped up in case they might smell it. I want to. I'm'm gonna ask a question. Just when I was training and I may be so off base that I'm way wrong, but I would always try being when shed season was going on, like when deer were shedding, I would really watch that like religiously, and then I would start going out trying to find the freshest heads I could find. When I found one, I mean some even like a little bit of blood on it because it's so fresh. I'd take plastic wrap, put over the end of it, save it, especially with a pup, and I'd let a pup just smell it and lick it and they seem to get excited and go crazy.
Speaker 1:And maybe you and I may have had this conversation once. But but does that scent go away? Then it just smells like a bone. Tell me about that. Was I doing the right thing? I mean, I don't even know.
Speaker 2:I was just trying to use my hillbilly logic, you know, and when you told me that, I said I was going to try it. So if I do get a really, really fresh shed, I am going to try it, because you're just preserving that, that scent at that time. Um, I think they always smell like something, um, whether it gets marked by coyote or um, squirrels or mice chew on it. Um, there's always a little bit of hair as well. Um, I think there's always a smell on them to them anyways. Hair as well. Um, I think there's always a smell on them to them anyways.
Speaker 2:Um, but, like my dogs have found old ones as well. Uh, by sight, yes, um, so we teach them to hunt with their eyes as well. But I definitely do want to try that, that tip with the with the wrapping it. But our issue here is that we don't shed hunt till the snow's gone, normally, because we've get a couple feet of snow when they're shedding. Um, and we don't want to bother them in's gone normally, because we get a couple feet of snow when they're shedding. And we don't want to bother them in the winter as well, because that's when they're trying to survive here. So that might be the only issue with me getting a fresh one and putting a bag on it.
Speaker 1:You know and I don't claim to be this expert trainer by any stretch of the imagination, but I can tell this I had a lab pup that I bought at the time. I think I'm pretty sure it came from Southern Oak Kennels and they don't breed shed dogs. Barton Ramsey will tell you that's not even his thing, but that's where I was getting the dogs. And anyway, that pup went just berserk over that fresh shed, as opposed to a regular antler, and she just kept licking that edge and licking. I thought, man, this has to work, because you can just watch her excitement. And that dog grew up to be a really good shed hunter.
Speaker 1:And I know I just I don't know, like I said, that was a trick I tried. Whether that was truly working or not, I'll never know. It seemed to. So let's move forward and I want you to explain a lot to me, because things have changed since I was training shed dogs or attempting to train shed dogs. Now you've talked about that. You guys have scents and stuff that's manufactured or I don't know if it's natural or manufactured. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we use Bone Clone Shed Antler Training Scent. That's the scent that is used in competition. So it's a clone, so it's a replica of a shed antler, so it smells like a shed antler, but it's not a natural scent, it's recreated for smelling like one. And if you actually go on the website there's the story, um about bone clone and, uh, they talk about how they actually brought a real antler to get tested and, um, I might not have all the details, I've read the story but I don't exactly remember everything. Uh, scott jugenbecker he's he's the owner of uh, of bone clone and rpm retrievers.
Speaker 2:You might have seen that name around, but they brought that antler to a scientist and then they brought a bunch of batches of that scent they were making and the consensus was okay, batch number, whatever it is, is the closest you'll ever get to a shed antler and that's the batch they've been using since. That's the story, how I remember reading it. But if you go on the bone clone shed antler training scent website, it's all there. So it replicates a freshly shed antler and we distribute that scent here in canada as well. So that was one of the issues when we started training shed dogs here for competitions is we didn't have access to that stuff. It was all across the border. So that's how the business Canadian Antler Dogs got started in order to import that scent legally into Canada and sell it here to make it available for people. So yeah, but it's a replicated scent of a freshly shed antler.
Speaker 1:Do you think, in your opinion, do you think using that scent is simply training a dog to find that particular scent and not really find an antler? What's your opinion? Because you obviously have experience.
Speaker 2:Before having access to that scent, I've used other types of scent as well. Before having access to that scent, I've used other types of scent as well, and the dogs that I've trained just on bone clone in the wild they they. When they get birdie they act the same way, whether it's a real antler or that scent in competitions. Obviously, because it's artificial and we're humans and we're buttering it all over the antler, it probably smells stronger, uh, but dogs smell in layers so it kind of overrides all of their scent, whether you put it on a tennis ball or you put it on anything else. They know that's what they're looking for and their reaction in the field to to wild sheds is basically the same. Um, so I'm I'm confident that that it's not an issue when it comes to that. Um, okay, and the fact that we get them to use their eyes as well, they investigate all those scents. Um, same for moose antlers.
Speaker 2:I was grouse hunting up north once and my dog got all birdie and put it, put his head down. I thought he was gonna flush a grouse. I almost took the safety off. I was ready for that flush and um comes back with the moose paddle not very big but and he acted the same way as he would on a grouse or on bone clone shed antler training scent or on a whitetail antler. So I think they all smell similar and then they, they really they can tell when it's an antler it's that that wax ring, everything. They can really smell that.
Speaker 1:I think I probably know the answer to this question, but at least for the listeners who may be interested in getting into shed hunting, what's the most common breed that you see in the shed hunting world?
Speaker 2:The most common breed would be your typical Labrador retriever. They're they're a popular dog uh, but you see all sorts of breed um non retriever breeds as well. Uh, there's some hall of fame border collies out there, um the non Monty um it. I've judged that dog and and it's a border collie, but it haunts big and and it retrieves like really really well. Um, there is uh malinois, german shepherds I've judged a dalmatian once.
Speaker 2:Um pomeranian pomeranians, um there's one of those that could barely pick up the antler, but but they can do it um. But labs, goldens, chessies, um gsps, poodle pointers, um any any dog that you can really think of. Um I've seen them. Um mixed breeds as well. As long as they performance list them under the ukc um they they can also participate for ribbons and titles, not for breeding. Obviously they have to be fixed to be performance listed, I believe. But there's a, yeah, there's all sorts of dogs that I've seen out there, the non-retriever breeds. Obviously the retrieve is the hardest part to teach, but once they get past that hurdle they are really, really good.
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Speaker 1:Yes, I had. You probably never heard of it. Until I moved to Texas. I hadn't heard of it either, but I had a blue lacy. It was a tracking dog I used for wounded game that I trained and she could find antlers, but she wouldn't retrieve anything. She's not a retriever and I never could overcome that with her. But I will say I know that several breeds can do it. Like you were saying, I've thought of a dog from back home in Kentucky. When I was living there, a friend of mine had a blue heeler and every year it was just loose. Lived up on top of a mountain in Leslie County where I'm from, and every year that dog would just bring antlers, fresh sheds, put them on the porch. You know I thought bad. There's people that kill for a dog like this. And it would bring you know it just constantly. And it's when they were fresh, you know, when they were shedding. It was so neat. No training, just natural. You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but uh and I always say, is it's, it's really really natural for any canine to do it. Um, I don't know if you've seen some of the videos or pictures that were circulating of coyotes and wolves carrying antlers around. They play with them, they bring them back to their den. So wolves and coyotes do it, so any canine. It's in their dna somewhere and they love it. I've seen dogs that, uh, you know, won't pick up a wingtip pigeon and then they're chasing an antler around a parking lot and they'll bring that back. So, um, I think it depends on the dog, but it's all in them.
Speaker 1:Um, for sure. Well, you know you said that about coyotes. When I was shed hunting really hardcore, I thought you know I was in a real heavily populated place for deer in northern kentucky shed hunting and an old-timer told me he's like I, was like man, there should be more sheds than this. I was hunting really hard, had two dogs that were excellent, and he said that's because the coyotes are getting them and taking them. So what you said, there's a lot of validity to that and I believe that's happening. Then you and I both know, if you've got a heavy squirrel population, believe that's happening, you know. Then you and I both know, uh, if you got a heavy squirrel population, yeah, if you've got a shed, it ain't gonna last long. Most of the time they'll have it chewed, gnarled, gnarled down to nothing yeah, and porcupines too, didn't know that okay, yeah yeah, and uh, I've got a story from not too long ago.
Speaker 2:So, uh, was it not the weekend? I just passed. The weekend before that it was over eastern ontario at my parents house, and I went turkey hunting. I shot a bird on the saturday and, um, the sunday was or sorry, the monday was a cool morning. So I said, you know what, like I looked in a few spots here when I was on vacation earlier in april. It's starting to green up, but I'll just go for a walk with the dogs and uh, one of my dogs met a porcupine. So, um, it was not a, it was not a good day. He probably had about 50 quills in him, yeah, and one, actually, well, more than one. But uh, he had maybe half dozen in his elbow and, uh, one or maybe two went right through. Uh, one for sure went right through. One was broken in. So he's, he's still limping. So I'm hoping that, uh, we got him on antibiotics. He went to the vet, they did all that, uh, but I'm hoping he recovers fully, for sure.
Speaker 1:You know, at my ranch and I'm not there today. It's, it's about three hours away and it's where I'm at most of the time, but I have a pork. When porcupine breeding season is going on, it's rampant. And now I just put my dogs up, you know, cause I've I got tired of going to the vet and that's.
Speaker 1:I've had dogs with porcupines that stuck up in their gums, you know, right, almost put their eyes out. You know it's just horrible and you know, taking those out and the antibiotics and all that stuff, it's, it's a bad job, it's, and it's. The dogs are in misery. Oh yeah, but yeah. But I didn't know that about the porcupines, and you know, uh, I, I shed hunt still a lot. I don't have any true shed dogs that I've trained to do that, but I still walk around the ranch Cause you know I've got I don't know if I told you that I've got exotics, a high fence ranch in Texas and so I've, you know, I've got access to your and that shed at different times of the year, you know, and all these animals have shed. So I, I'm out a lot doing that, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, That'd be a nice trip for us and the dogs and the kids the kids the kids would love that, yeah, you'll have to fix that up because, yes, you will enjoy that. Even though I'm out looking all the time, I'll never find them. All you know, like those animals I have on the ranch, I still can't find their antlers, and it kills me. Oh yeah, that's what keeps me going. You know, I'm like I'm going to find those antlers and I had a red stag, you know. So every year he would shed and I would kill myself looking for those, and probably three of them I haven't found.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But uh, they're easier to find too, obviously, Right. So tell me let's, let's go into the training part of it. Yep, I know we don't have enough time and space to go through everything that you would do, but let's start out with a started puppy. What do you look for to see that it has the drive to do this sport? First tell me how you determine that and then tell me how you start developing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. First, I just want to touch on on the training program as a whole. Um, we, we started it just because we couldn't find anything out there to train a shed dog from like a to z, um, that was like concise and specific and detailed, uh, and also for competitions. So our way may not be the right way, but it's the way that works for us and has worked for dozens of dogs that we've trained. So this, this is our way. But there's a lot, of, a lot of ways to skin a cat, they say right. So there's lots of methods out there, just like the field trial guys or or the, uh, the hrc, akc, hunt test people, so, um, but with a puppy, much like any other retriever or hunt test or field trial. What I like to see is some ball drive right. Will they chase the balled up socks or the wool balls? We've been using a wool ball and we actually put an antler on it, like a white antler on it, to start building that visual recognition. But will they chase that around a little hallway, will they? You know, are they? Even if they chase it around and then kind of want to keep away, I'm okay with that because they prize that retrieve a lot and you can train the recall and you can train all that later on anyway. So if they have a lot of value in the retrieve and they want to keep it, I'm okay with that at the puppy stage for sure. Okay with that at the puppy stage for sure. Um, so much like a basic gundog program. Um, I even recommend to follow a basic you know gundog program up to old conditioning or whatever you're going to do with your dog um, and that usually covers off that basic obedience.
Speaker 2:Um, we do start building that antler drive early, though with rubber antlers and all that. Have them chase us around. Start building that hunt command as well. Uh, really, it's just a simple um, kibble in the grass and find it, find it, find it type of deal. Um, so that they get rewarded and get that kibble as they're hearing that hunt command you're going to use, we use, find it. It's pretty simple um, and then we start, um, yeah, building that drive, doing drills to extend the distance, build the confidence with the dog. Um, we make it black and white. So in in our community and training program.
Speaker 2:Uh, what we do is is much like the field trial or hunt test. Is, you know, the first retrieves is a big white antler on short grass. What I see a lot and you see it on the forums and you see it online is is people just grab an antler, go put it in a pile of grass and then tell their dog to find it and the dog's like, well, I don't really know what's going on. So we like to build that confidence before we start implementing, um, different terrain and and really thick cover and all that stuff. We really want the dog to be confident, um. So a lot of our drills are geared towards building that confidence um, working with the handler, ordering, going in and out of cover, using their eyes, using their, their nose, and we kind of separate them all and then at the end we put it all together. We do a lot of memory work as well to build some of that drive. So much like any type of retriever training, if you teach the dog beforehand, it's going to build a more confident dog in the long run. And the dog that wants to do it and wants to please you, versus a dog that doesn't really know what's going on, they're not taught and they're like this is kind of boring, I don't really know what I'm doing right now, versus really building that drive in the dog so that they're comfortable going away from you, comfortable hunting hard, and when they do find one, they pick it up and bring it right back to you. Especially wild shed hunting, nothing beats turning around and seeing your dog coming back from 150 yards away with a big white or brown antler in their mouth. You know you've done your job right. So that's what we want to train.
Speaker 2:As a judge, I see all sorts of different dog. I'm a judge in the elite shed dog series um. All sorts of different types of dogs, different hunting styles, um. But there is a true difference between a dog that will get that podium and a dog that gets 14 minutes 59 seconds right, it's 15 minutes for a pass, uh. Versus a dog that gets 14 minutes 59 seconds right, it's 15 minutes for a pass versus a dog that maybe will get under two minutes one day. So there's dogs that hunt independently. There's dogs that kind of stick by the handler and then, oh, there's one, I'll pick it up and bring it back, type of deal. So there is difference in dogs that can accomplish the course and fast times because they have that drive and they do want to hunt for the handler, and these dogs do really really well wild shed hunting as well.
Speaker 1:So the events are. These tests are timed events.
Speaker 2:They are. They are time specific events. So in a nutshell, it's the course would be 50 yards by 100 yards, so roughly the size of a football field. Uh, it can't be on short grass, obviously. It has to be either in a field, uh like cornfield, or um a hay field, something with cover, or in in the forest, right in the bush it could be a pine plantation, in a meadow, in an orchard, um all type of uh areas where we normally um shed hunt, um. So within that area there will be six zones, um, so those zones are roughly um the roughly be 25 yards by 33 yards to make up that whole area. So within that course, there's the six imaginary zones, so the boundaries are marked, but those zones aren't um, so they're imaginary.
Speaker 2:There will be five antlers, so every so five of the zones will have an antler. One will be blank, as the handler. You don't know where they are, you don't know which ones, you're blank. So the blanks a random draw. That's done by the, by the event, uh, um chairperson or judge before the event um, so your head out there with your dog, walk to the line. The judge will be there, normally with a antler wrangler. We'll call them and they'll have a stopwatch. And when you're ready you release your dog, you can go, you hunt with your dog, you can quarter your dog. You just can't handle them directly to an antler. If you find one, if you find one yourself, you can maintain a distance that's in the rules from that antler.
Speaker 2:You find one, if you find one yourself, you can maintain a distance uh, that's in the rules from that antler. Call your dog over and get your dog to uh to hunt the area and find the antler independently, so you can't whistle, sit them and cast them right to the antler. They want to see that the dogs can do it. Um, and then you have 15 minutes to do all that. Um, in working class, uh, it's four of the five antlers in 15 minutes and they have to be retrieved to uh, your immediate area as the handler.
Speaker 2:So very similar to started uh in HRC. Yeah, um, so once the dog will make contact with an antler, the judge will indicate that and the handler can no longer move forward. Uh, in, in working they allow a little bit of retreat to encourage that that retrieve in champion, you are planted. So if my dog picks from the last zone 100 yards away and the judge says find, then I have to remain where I am until my dog retrieves to hand. Wow, so in champion, it's to hand. And then, once it's retrieved to hand, you can keep working with your dog um being.
Speaker 1:How far would, at this high in the high level test, how far away have you seen a dog from a handler in a find?
Speaker 2:and a find. So my dog, one of my dog, badger so and other dogs that I've judged as well. But, uh, I have done a course where my dog has found and retrieved all five before I'm out of the first zone. So before I've done that, first 33 yards we're done so, um, the fastest time, I believe, is a minute 22 that I've done with with my dog. Uh, for all five antlers within that that distance.
Speaker 1:Um, but anything under three minutes is extremely fast, um, yeah, are you required to stay a certain at the upper levels? Does the distance as far as you have the handler being from your dog? Does it increase, or you have to stay further away from your dog, or is that change? Is that the same throughout all levels?
Speaker 2:yeah, so that's, that's not regulated. You can walk with your dog as long, like however you hunt right, um, shed hunting, like some people like ordering their dogs closer. Some people don't mind their dogs hunting big. Um, I call it hunting big, hunting the back areas. For, um, we have a few drills we do. There's some dogs, depending on the dog's personality, that I like to train to actually run out, hunt the back and then work their way back, type of deal. Um so, um, that also increases the chances of of, uh, me stumbling across one and one of the first zones as well. Uh, and then, once they retrieve one, they can retrieve that one immediately if I position myself downwind. Um, so there's a lot of tricks like that that we we cover in our program and some drills we do to make the dogs a little faster or to build confidence too.
Speaker 2:So it's really fun when you're running a course and you're running under two minutes. It's like whoa, what just happened? Your adrenaline's going, you're out with the dog. It's a real team sport. It's real fun, for sure. And it's really fun when you go to events and and the clubs try to set up different courses every year. You're not going to the same bush every year. So we have a hundred acre property where we run our test and we try to change our courses every single year so that we even have courses. So they closed the hunting club where we where we have our event. So they closed the gun range and all that. And we actually have courses that we set up the night before behind the gun range, because that's usually an area that's closed to the public so no one can train on them. It's all brand new to everyone, um. So we try to do that to kind of diversify all the the areas that we we do our tests in when these okay, I assume that these courses are set up.
Speaker 1:The antlers are planted by a judge or a helper or somebody correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so are they the same for every dog.
Speaker 1:Like if there's 10 dogs competing, will all 10 dogs have an antler in the same location.
Speaker 2:Yes, except for the blank. So if there's 10 dogs with different handlers, let's say the blank will be a random draw for every handler you mean the blank zone that has no antler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the blank zone that has no antler might be the first zone for me, but the second zone for you, um, and one of the reasons being I I believe I can't speak on behalf of an organization or anything like that in regards to rules, but um is that I can't go tell Ken that, yeah, yeah, the blank zone was, you know, number six, right, um?
Speaker 2:So I think if they modify it, for for every handler being a random draw, then there's less opportunities for for um issues with, uh, with that type of stuff, um.
Speaker 2:But that being said so, as a judge myself, my plants are always consistent to the point that if I'm putting that one big antler in that zone, it's always going to be that big antler in that zone, and if it's always tines up with a few leaves on it, it's always going to be tines up with a few leaves on it. Okay, so that's the level of detail we do to maintain that consistency, because it is a timed event, um. And then if you run multiple dogs, then you're going to get a plant two, so you can most most clubs will allow three or four dogs per handlers. So let's say we run all the plant ones, which would be you and I, if we're only running one dog, then we'll get to plant twos. So we now need to modify the course but keep the consistency. So we need to keep the consistency and also, uh, taking consideration residual scent from where the antler was placed before all day as well, as well as wind and all that stuff. So, uh, but judges do a really, really good job to maintain that consistency.
Speaker 2:Usually and you can see it by the once you get to know the dogs that are running the tests and all that um, you can kind of look at the scoreboard at the end of the day and say, yeah, that was a very, very consistent test um because some, you know, there's some dogs that will run 8 to 13 minutes every time and and that's kind of their standard, uh, and there's other dogs that are really fast, um, so you'll, you'll look at that scoreboard and you'll be able to tell that, yeah, it was a very consistent test.
Speaker 2:That being said, environmental conditions change, winds can change Thermals. There's a lot of facts to consider and there's rules in regards to that as well. I don't want to get into the weeds, but you know I wouldn't. If the wind's blowing this way, I wouldn't plant on the boundary, so the dog has to be out of bounds to smell it right. So we have to be fair and we have to take in consideration that weather can change during the day. So if you're planning right on the line, it could, it could be unfair at some point in the day for the dog. So we like to plant a fair test, um, that will be able to to uh, maintain that consistency through the day.
Speaker 1:Now you're saying out of bounds, are they? Do they have to stay inside the corridor of the field?
Speaker 2:No, they don't, but they won't find anything outside. I have one dog that I run. Sometimes If I start getting on the whistle and handling too much, he's not going to do well. I've had that dog run a three or four-minute time and half that time was run outside the course. But if I would have gotten on the whistle we probably would have ran an eight or nine minute time, because he doesn't like when I tell him what to do. So it depends on the dog and depends on your type of training. Which way the wind's blowing, um, but you, you're not penalized for running out of bounds, um, you just won't find an antler, a planted antler, there.
Speaker 1:And you're saying I didn't realize this.
Speaker 2:So you actually get to handle the dog back in bounds? Yeah, you can handle the dog back in bounds yeah, so some people will go and handle their dogs like quartering motion. So it depends on the style, your style right, and how you want to hunt your dog.
Speaker 1:If I understand correctly, then you can handle the dog anytime, except when you, the handler, finds the antler first. Correct, yeah, okay so other than that you can handle the dog until you see the antler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can you can quarter your dog back and forth and work with your dog, and all that, yeah, if, if you're starting to give them backs and overs, it could be questionable. It depends on the judge. Always clarify it with the judge of the day, anyways. But, um, yeah it's, it really depends on your style and how like I as a judge myself. Um, I just like an hrc or any other sport, right, you know, you might tell them over for a back and you might tell them, but I don't know how you train um, so I can't judge you on that and I'm not going to give you a hard time. Um, but if I see that you see an antler and then your whistle sitting your dog and then casting to the antler, that kind of defeats the purpose, right, um?
Speaker 1:ben, I'm curious because I know you've said, now that you judge this stuff, you compete in it also, do you see breeds that are faster at hunting antlers than others? Yeah, like generally I would think a border collie would be super fast.
Speaker 2:They are super fast. Border collies are fast. They have great noses. Um, like the dog we talked about earlier, has um um hall of fame. I don't, I don't want to. Might have been the first non-retriever with hall of fame, but I'm not 100 sure on that. But I I believe monty has multiple repeats of elite shed dogs. So wins against retriever breeds. Um, so very, very nice dog. Um, and I and I do like judging that dog, yeah, um kelly kelly, kelly's great the handler as well.
Speaker 1:Um, she's they're so smart. I mean they are, they're just. I've trained two cattle dogs and I got a guy to train me to train a cattle dog. Oh yeah, they're definitely outsmart the trainer, which is probably too hard with me, but they're just amazing.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if it's because the sport is dominated by retriever breeds that I want to say labs generally are faster just because there's more labs doing it. So if there's more of a breed doing it, I think there's more chances of them winning, yes, or seeing them on the podium. So there is, yeah, their labs probably dominate the sport. I would say.
Speaker 1:Now, I've trained and owned quite a few Malinois and I did a lot of protection dog work. I would think they would be really good at it, Are they?
Speaker 2:They are they. They are really good at it, and there's quite a few people that use Malinois. I personally don't like judging Malinois. I'm afraid I'm going to lose a hand, but uh yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not going to grab that antler out, right? Yeah, we don't. The handler has to right. But then the handler passes it over to the judge or the antler wrangler. So I like to have the helper do the malinois for me or someone that's familiar with them. You're going to wear a bite sleeve, you know. Right, right so, but no, they're great dogs and and some of the antlers that I've used in tests where I've judged malinois, you can definitely tell them malinois had a had their jaw on it for sure.
Speaker 1:Gosh, yeah, yeah those dogs will actually eat your furniture. They don't chew on it, they'll eat it. They'll just eat it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're really really good dogs but they're, they're crazy smart.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're so smart and like a border collie, that's neat. I'd like to watch. See, I've never seen other dogs well, I've never seen a shade competition, but I I've five. I was a hardcore shed hunter with dogs and I never really used anything but labs. I tried with, like I told you, I tried with a blue Lacey, but I'd love to watch these other dogs do that. I think that'd be really neat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you, if you look up on the UKC website and you go under the leech head dog series, there's usually a listings for clubs, clubs, um, and you can also go look at events. So, um, always, our club's always welcoming of anyone that's willing to wrangle antlers for us and at the same time, you get to see a lot of dogs work, right, um. So I always recommend to people, if you can and if you have a club that's willing to, let you volunteer and tag along with the judge and and wrangle the antlers for them for a few dogs at least. Then you get to see a lot.
Speaker 1:You get to see how handlers, different handlers work and all that, and it's definitely beneficial for sure hello, this is kenneth witt and gundog nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as retriever training supply. Based in alabama, retrie Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff made in America. Their leashes are and they source them locally. They have anything you want fast, friendly service, fast shipping. Just good people Ret. They have anything you want fast, friendly service fast shipping, just good people.
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Speaker 1:You know, ben, you know this much better than me, but I just started AKC judging. I've only done my apprentice. I haven't officially judged yet, but just the day I apprenticed all day long. I don't know 30-some dogs, 40 dogs. I learned more sitting in that seat about training and handling than I would have in weeks of seminars. So I would imagine sitting in your seat judging those, you get to learn a lot, don't you? I mean?
Speaker 2:you get to learn a lot and you get a lot of steps too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, planning the antlers between every dog and doing all that, and then you'll say I don't have to do that, I just sit there like a you know what I, I'm pretty active and I like I like doing that and being on my feet and all that, and it's like, no, I like I like doing that and being on my feet and all that, and it's like you know that antler goes beside that little twig that's just off place, like it needs to go in the right spot every time. Um, but yeah, we do learn a lot and you learn a lot of what not to do as well. Uh. So yeah, I do touch on some of that in our um on train a shed dogcom on our training program in our competitive section is a common handler mistake that I see. Um, that usually costs people either a pass or even a podium or or uh, definitely some time. So I do touch on on some of that in there as well.
Speaker 1:Well, do you have? Are these competitions in every state? I mean, or I know you said one, the, is it the Masters in Illinois always correct?
Speaker 2:Nationals has been in Illinois as far. That was my third or fourth Nationals this year and it's always been in Illinois. Different spot in Illinois now it was in Altamont, illinois, at the Ballard Nature Center last year and this year, um, but there's events, uh, there's a lot of events in Michigan, uh, a lot of events. Illinois, wisconsin Um, it's pretty well represented, but there there's. It's not in every state, I don't believe. Okay, um, but um, if you go on the UKC elite shed dog series website, um, it's under events and you'll see them all over there. Um, yeah, we, we try to travel to as many as we can, but it's uh, it gets expensive and uh, we, yeah, and with the family and and the dogs and everything else, it's uh, yeah, we do, we do less than probably we should. Uh, we probably should get out there as much as we can, but it's just not not realistic.
Speaker 1:How many?
Speaker 2:dogs you have right now. Uh, we have four labs. Um, one's uh retired now. This was the first season. We didn't uh wild shed hunt with her She'll, she just turned 12. He needs a break and, um, yeah, she's uh, he's starting to get blind and all that, and kind of, when it's your dog, it's my wife's dog, but you try to ignore that, but it's like no, this year she's staying home and just relaxing. Um so, yeah, we, we have uh four uh right now of our own.
Speaker 1:Um, do you think you'll ever try another breed in?
Speaker 2:the sport yourself or just always do labs. I'm not sure. Like myself, I'll probably likely just always do labs. Um, I waterfowl hunt, I I'll plan hunt, um, so I goose hunt and duck hunt quite a bit. Uh, we pheasant hunt and grouse hunt as well, and then the shed hunting part is, uh, really is only like three weeks out of the year in the wild for us, like it's between ice fishing and Turkey season, um, and it's the competition that's now is it's so fun and it's so nice to get the kids out there as well. I run some dogs and my wife runs some dogs and the kids run dogs. What's nice, too, is the kids can take the grand champion dog or the hall of fame dog and go run them in youth. Right, they can take any type of level dog, because it's not for titles, it's just for the ribbons and and um and nationals for scholarships. They can take any type level dog and run through a working class course. So, um, they have a lot of fun doing it and uh, I love that.
Speaker 1:I wish all sports, the sports, would have youth involvement like that. You know, I mean, you see it in HRCs and AKCs, but what you're talking about it's even more in depth with youth. I like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun and and uh, there's a bunch of good ladies that run that um elite shed dog series scholarship fund and really kind of take it on to get people to run fundraisers and raise money for the fund and they do a really really, really great job. It's great and it's nice to see the kids just performing in that. And I've got a good story from our last shed test or trial or whatever you want to call it. It is a trial because we do take that top four there. That has more points.
Speaker 2:So my son was gifted a dog a few years ago now by Amy Kuchenbecker, blue Clay Kennels. That dog had her Hall of Fame when it was donated to my son. So great gesture, just awesome, and it was for for my son to keep running. So my son actually put a a started honey retriever title on that dog After it had his hall of fame from from Amy there and the dog was elite shed dog obviously because it had hall of fame, but it was one pass away from elite shed dog too. Um, so it stayed like that a little bit. My son kept running her in in um youth I ran her a little bit in champion. My wife did. Um got really close to the podiums a couple times. I think my wife got the podium with her once or twice um last test. My son said I want to run her in champion and and my wife said, sure, like it's your dog, right, and we were kind of waiting.
Speaker 2:How does your son? Uh, he he's. He was 11 at the time. He just turned 12, he just turned 12. And it's his dogs. We were kind of waiting for that moment because we want them to kind of get more responsible and do that. And so I was leading that trial. So I was going to get my elite shed dog title that day if I would have remained in first. My son got the elite shed dog too on that Hall of Fame dog and I was bumped to second. But you know what? I was the happiest man in the world. Oh man, it was awfully dusty in that field that day. It was something.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that is so cool. I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what? What if my dog never gets his leech head dog title, I don't even care, right? Yeah, it was just to see. So, from going to just running youth and and he ran in champion once before and he got like a nine minute time to you know, beating me by 59 seconds. It wasn't just a hey, hey, dad, I beat you, it was just a slap. Here you go, here you go, dad. You got beat by an 11-year-old by an 11-year-old by 59 seconds, which is a lot.
Speaker 1:How will he top that now? I mean heck yeah.
Speaker 2:That dog's now got Elite Shed Dog 2, and he'll get his title in the mail. And actually the ownership of that dog was transferred to my son so the first title that he got on that dog was the start of hunting retriever title in his name. Uh, now he's gonna get the the elite shed dog too title in his name. So, um, just the impact it's had on my dog I can't be thankful enough for for amy and everything um she's done for us and um, and yeah, for my son to get that. It was like finally it clicked because it was like he's got this hall of fame dog, he's got to be able to run some good times, right, um, but he's more of a reserved kid and and kind of shy a little bit and and so he's kind of coming out of his shell now. Yeah, what a great confidence builder right for a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's kind of coming out of his shell now. Yeah, what a great confidence builder. Right for a child? Yeah yeah yeah, so he got the, he got the tub of water over the head and all that. If you go on my facebook, you can see it there and uh, yeah, it was a great day it was a great.
Speaker 1:I love that. Uh well, you all, you mentioned something you know. He said he was running hrc with that dog and I don't know, ben, for some reason I just had tunnel vision. Now I'm realizing heck, these aren't just shed dogs, you guys waterfowl hunt correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1:They're doing this and the shed hunting both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do both. There's a lot of crossover. When we started the club side of things Georgian Bay Shed Dogs here um, it's actually a sister club to our georgian bay hrc club, um. So we got, uh, I attended an hrc meeting, um, and said, hey, like what do you guys think about that, the shed dog stuff, and I'm really interested in it. There's nothing in canada. I'm going to the states to try it out. I went to the States, tried it out. I said, guys, we've got to have that here. And we became a.
Speaker 2:We created Georgian Bay Shed Dogs as part of our HRC club. It's a sister club to it. So we've seen a lot of crossover and a lot of people that, yeah, this is great and we're in Canada, like we can't do swim by and we can't do swim by in April, so we might as well shed hunt and do all that stuff. So it's a nice. It complements our club. It's good to raise money for the HRC club as well. Just being sister clubs, we kind of share bank accounts and all that. So either way, so it works really really, really well for that. And then we get more kids involved. We get more people involved.
Speaker 2:That you know now we've got people that came in for the shed portion, have no interest in the waterfowl hunting, but now they're helping load the wingers and they're helping do this right, because they're like I don't want my, I don't want to run my dog in there, but I'll help out. Or they're running the potluck or they're helping with the food. Um, so we see a lot of crossover and it's just a giant big family. It's really great to see, for sure. But yeah, we do do both. Um, I waterfowl hunt primarily um with my dog, and then the shed dog stuff is just on the side and for fun. So, um, yeah, we're, we're having a lot of fun with it for sure I like that.
Speaker 1:I like dual purpose use or multi-purpose use your dog. Um, logistical question when you guys are coming over the states competing because I'll probably go up to canada and hunt this year and I definitely want to take my dogs is it? Is it difficult now these days to cross over and back with your dogs? What do you have to do?
Speaker 2:Last time I was through was in March for nationals, and it wasn't bad to cross. We need passports from our side to go and then to come back, and then we need to do the form for the CDCdc, like for for our dogs to cross and have our up-to-date vaccines. There's rules around dog food as well. Um, so, um, yeah, it has to be sealed and it can't contain, uh, lamb, I believe things like that. So, uh, normally what we do, we just cross without food and then just buy food across, um, just to simplify it. But there's rules in regards to dog food. Um, coming back into canada, they normally don't ask us a lot of questions just because we are canadian. They usually just want to make sure they are our dogs and we didn't just go buy them and bring them back. So, yeah, um, they look at vaccination and all that, but I'm not sure what it would take for you to come back. I think it would be pretty similar to that as well.
Speaker 1:I wonder if they would have that dog food requirement on the Canadian side if I were coming into Canada.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure if they do or not. The Canadian Border Services Agency would be the ones to call to see see if there's rules in regards to that. And it's it's mainly regulated from the, the ministry of agriculture or foods, or or just to make sure that. Yeah, I'm not too. I'm not not quite sure of the purpose, but I know they do control what kind of foods you can bring in.
Speaker 1:You know I just thought about something. I actually crossed into Ontario to go into it, just to stay in Niagara Falls in 2012. And I had a Rottweiler. It was a protection dog I was working with at the time and it was really easy and they were so nice, like the Canadian side. You know they let me cross. I may have shown an Arabia certificate or something.
Speaker 1:I can't remember, but it was. I couldn't believe it was that easy. And I came back they didn't even check my dog. I had a dog box. You know I'm old school hunting guy back then and had the old aluminum coon dog box in the back. You know from my rottweiler. But it was. It was real simple. I just didn't know if that had changed a whole lot, but that's good to know yeah, and I'm not sure, but that's funny.
Speaker 2:You say that because the first I used to live in niagara, near niagara falls, ontario, in 2012. That's where I lived until 2016. I lived, uh, about 20 minutes from niagara falls proper. I was uh in font hill area, um, in niagara region, so that's quite funny, but I used to cross over a lot then because our uh, our dollar was actually close to uh to par, so I would do a lot then. Because our dollar was actually close to par, so I would do a lot of my shopping at Walmart in Buffalo. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think, we're a little cheaper, but it's a little different now for sure. Yeah, but I do have a mailbox now in Niagara Falls, New York. I'm about two and a half hours away, but for business stuff. That's usually where I go pick up my stuff and they do all my importation paperwork um, and then cross it, uh, through the commercial side, um, back into Canada.
Speaker 1:Ben, tell all of our listeners if they want to get involved into the antler hunting world, where would they go first? What's the what? What resource would you advise them to check out first?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say ours.
Speaker 1:That's okay. How do they find your training program?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's fairly simple. Trainasheddogcom is our website and we wanted to make something that's really really affordable and really simple. So I'm the type of guy that likes to see those sequential short videos. You don't have to watch a three hour video on on healing to learn to shed hunt, right. So we've got those videos in sections. So we've got our our shed dog guide and drills. That's our main one. I believe there's 31 lessons in there right now. That's our main one. I believe there's 31 lessons in there right now. And then we have our competitive shed dog training and drills as well. So it's all drills that we do to in preparation for trials. So we help the handler and the dogs get ready for trials. So we try to coach the handlers as well.
Speaker 2:And the ways that the videos are laid out. It's basically a short written explanation of what you're going to need, what you're going to be doing, and then, once you get into the video again, I explain it. I explain it with visual aids, so maybe a diagram on a board, and I explain the purpose and then I demonstrate it with a dog or multiple dogs. So every video is kind of laid out like that and our community also gives you access to a private community forum on the same platform. So when you're logged in you can go check out the products in the videos. Or you can log in, or you can just click on the community and go ask questions.
Speaker 2:And I've been doing regular so every month or two months I've been doing a regular um. So every month or two months I've been doing a live zoom call as well. Um, so members can call in, uh, when I'm logged on and we all share ideas, we talk, um, if they have questions. We kind of just just like you and I right now, we just talk and um and uh, then we I record them and I leave them in the program as well so people can go watch them later on.
Speaker 1:I figured out now why you have that, that good microphone and headphones. You do this all the time with zoom calls and stuff.
Speaker 2:Try, I try to yeah yeah, okay I try to so we do the live community zoom calls, which I I think is great and they'll always be there because I record them. Um, so if you join, let's say, next week, you can go see the call we had in april or the call we had in february, so people can go listen to it, kind of like a podcast or yes, just go watch it if they want to. Um, so we try to. I think our program is a really good bang for the buck no pun intended, but yeah, yeah, we wanted to make it affordable and really we're not. We're not making a pile of money off of it. We kind of just try to keep it running and make it available for people.
Speaker 2:Our main challenges was there's nothing out there to prepare for shed dog trials. There was nothing when we were trying to get ready and we wanted something simple, um, that people can do it. And I think there's. You know, there's some guys that kind of give us a hard time and they say, well, dogs could just do it, dogs could just do it. But that's the same guys that say the labs can just duck hunt and they're throwing rocks for their dogs to go get that bird right so you can have a regular shed dog, or you can have a dog that's confident, reliable uh, and that will hunt for you and hunt out and all that um. So I think you can have just a regular dog, or you can train your dog like any other type of hunting. You always hear it right? Oh, my lab, I never trained it a day and he retrieved 100 ducks in his career, right. Well, that's, that's nothing, um. So you know uh, same guys that are throwing rocks for their dogs.
Speaker 1:So that's it. You know there's, there's the pros and cons of social media and all that stuff and and uh, as much as much people you'll get that like you, you'll end up getting as many haters, I guess. I don't know how many people hate me? I don't want to ask, but it's just part of it. But yeah, you're right, you know a lot of armchair trainers and stuff.
Speaker 2:For sure, and you know it's the way we do it and it's for the do it yourselfers, right? We don't try to take away from trainers or take away from other people that are training dogs. We just want to help people train their own and that's the purpose behind it. So it's for the people that want to do it themselves, because a lot of people myself included, when I get a dog or when I got a dog in the past, I say I want to train it myself and that's just a tool to help train your dog yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, so some people will always go to trainers, some people always go and try to do it themselves so that's what we want to provide that service, uh, and that's why we're doing the live zoom calls too, so we can discuss, and I like to hear feedback. What's going well? What would you like to see in the program? Like, I'm not a movie producer, right, so, um, but though, but I'm getting really, really good feedback that the videos are laid out very well and and people are finding successes. Um, I had one person that was uh started implementing some of our competitive drills and and he went from being, you know, passing in champion class to hitting podiums and now being one win away from their elite shit dog title too. So they're doing those drills and finding success.
Speaker 2:So I like to see success in our community members. That's what I want. So I want people to be successful. There's no secret I don't care if I get beat by the people that I gave my way, like, gave my drill away to like we got to kind of get away from this world, and it's no different than contestant's on a trial, so it's not as bad. But there's a lot of good trainers that are sharing awesome information. They compete in field trials and they train dog for field trials, and field trials is very, very competitive, um, and I'd listened to all those trainers as well. I really like to keep keep in the loop and see all the success from all the trainers and all the programs out there and it's really nice to see. So, yeah, train a shed dogcom that's where all our stuff is, and we wrote a blog just last week kind of describing our program as well. We wrote a blog just last week describing our program as well.
Speaker 2:Some people had a lot of questions so we broke it down as to what you're going to get for your membership. We have a setup as a yearly membership right now, just for the American friends all my American friends, or American listeners of yours. The price that you'll see is in canadian dollars um, so, uh, it'll convert it on your credit card or whatever and it'll be way less so, yeah, so um, and uh, yeah, get, get in, get in touch with us if you have any questions. We're mostly, uh, active on instagram at Canadian Antler Dogs is where we're at. Give us a follow and I'll give you a code as well. I'll generate a code for your listeners. I don't know if you have the ability to post in the comments, but for $30 off our membership for anyone that's interested.
Speaker 1:Yes, as a matter of fact, I've got a website now and we've kind of made it more advanced and I can maybe do it through there. We're getting ready to start For my listeners. We're building up this email list. So if you've been submitting, if you're signing up for our email list, don't feel like I've deserted you, even though we haven't done anything with you yet. We're trying to get that all up and running, hopefully within the next two weeks, and we'll send out announcements, like when your podcast goes live in, we'll let our listeners know via email and then, if there's codes, we can email codes to our listeners. We'll have it on our websites. We can do stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And we're always happy to answer any questions too. If any of your listeners have questions in regards to shed dog training, shed dog trials, more more than happy to help okay, well, hey, I love it.
Speaker 1:It's a. You know you might get me fired back up. I have been in the shed hunting about three or four years and now I'm into all this retriever, hunt, test stuff and, oh man, it's that's. You know, I've fooled dogs for a long time, that it's complicated, but you get that. Advanced training uh, I'm getting people to train me right now so I can train my dogs. But, and I and I use online, so if I use cornerstone, I use all the you know, I use tools that I can find and and they're all great uh, but uh, yeah, it's, it's a challenge for sure we're always learning right.
Speaker 1:If you're training dogs, you're always learning great, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's a challenge For sure. We're always learning right. If you're training dogs, you're always learning, Always. I'm always listening to podcasts.
Speaker 1:I listen to Good Dog Nation.
Speaker 1:I listen to a lot of different podcasts and try to expand that knowledge. So I listen to so many podcasts and I listen to pro trainers and I try to get most of them on my own podcast so I can and I that's, you know, my podcast to get people like you, people that have experience, that that not only I can learn from but my listeners learn from, and I think that's why I love doing this show is I feel like a listener, right? You know, I'm not guy of the questions, but I'm learning from you.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that and I learned from you like that, that shed and that bag trick.
Speaker 1:like I'm gonna try that for sure because that just makes sense well, and it was a fresh set, I thought, oh man, this thing's gonna have a really good, strong scent, I would think. And uh.
Speaker 1:I've done. I was lucky enough to catch sheds like that twice. I'll tell you a little tidbit of and that maybe it's just coincidence but that same pup, pup that was in the spring later in the fall she found a spike. Oh yeah, awesome A spike. And you know, in Kentucky we're full of oak trees, there's leaves this deep. Yeah, here she come running with that in her mouth. I couldn't know what it was. I thought it was a bone and it was a deer spike. I thought, wow, you, you know, this dog can find that. You know, I mean that I could not believe it.
Speaker 2:I took, I probably got pictures that somewhere, but yeah yeah, I, I love it when my, my dog brings a spike, like I've posted pictures before or like little, like little nubs and uh, I posted pictures before and people are laughing. Oh, what a shed dog. Yeah, what a shed dog, because if they can find those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not trophy, but that's way hard to find that a big, you know, 20 point, 15 point, whatever deer, but yeah to me that's the biggest trophy, if they're able to key in on that scent and then recognize and pick it up.
Speaker 2:Um, I have that this spring, with just a little nub, and I thought my dog was chewing a bone on his way back because I can hear the teeth. And then he got close and I could see his stick out. I'm like it's an antler and I threw it. I threw it. I always throw wild antlers as a fun retrieve, like if my dog brings me a, um, a wild antler, I throw it as a fun retrieve. And I picked up that one and just out of reflex I threw it for the dog and I'm like, oh, is he going to find it again? Right, because it was so small and he did.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you know, and just thinking what I did it that day, I put I had a farm up in Frankfort, kentucky and I just got out, dropped the tailgate, let the dogs out and I was fiddling around with something in the truck. I dogs out and I was fiddling around with something in the truck. I hadn't given a command of any kind. She took off in the woods and it probably 10 minutes Most came back with that spike and she wasn't even. She was about eight months old.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I love it.
Speaker 1:You might get me fired back up. You know, I think there's a club in Texas.
Speaker 2:I think there's a. I think there's a club in Texas, cause I, yeah, I think there's a club in Texas because, yeah, I believe there is.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the other thing when I get off here. I'm going to start looking that up now because I want to attend a competition.
Speaker 2:One thing too is it's fairly inexpensive to train a dog. You need a few antlers, you need some scent, which is fairly cheap, and then even tests. We don't have to buy ducks, we don't have to pay bird technicians. So you know you're not looking at $85 for a test, you're looking at $30, $35 to run a test. So you're saving quite a bit there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, you and I both know that retriever training equipment expense I mean those launchers, all that stuff's expensive.
Speaker 2:The wingers, the electronics.
Speaker 1:I forgot how lucky I used to have it with just doing sheds. See, I used to just do sheds only Four or five years. It's the only kind of training I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think if you do one trial, or you go to a trial and then you do one with your dog, I think you'd be hooked. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:I just started hunt testing this year. You'd be hawked. Yeah, I know, I just started hunt testing this year.
Speaker 1:Right, I did a fetch test last year with a pup in AKC Okay and did well, but yeah, man, I've got it bad. Matter of fact, this hunt season in Texas hunt test is over now. Okay, because it's so hot. And I was thinking, this Sunday I was driving back home and I was like, what am I going to do? Every weekend I've been gone to a hunt test and I'm meeting. I made a lot of friends and meeting a lot of good people and I thought, man, I've got you know what am I going to do all summer? But uh, I'll have to train, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yeah, training is always fun. We don't, uh, we don't participate in any shed tests in the summer, even up here. Um, it's just hunt. Tests are going on, that's fine, but um, yeah, I don't want to put my dog don't like doing in the heat heat like when it's real hot. They they don't like doing it, especially a test. And um, yeah, we always have struggles when we come from you know minus 20 degree weather here and drive to Illinois where they're cutting grass for nationals or dogs hate it every year they don't like it, but we do it for the fun, and seeing all our shed dog family and all our friends and getting the kids to run in the youth category as well, it's awesome.
Speaker 1:It's a great atmosphere for people out there listening that has never been to hunt test, whether it's shed hunting, retriever hunt test, whatever, it's really fun. It's a great family event and it's a great way to meet people that share the same interest. I love it. I've just started doing it and I'm hooked.
Speaker 2:And now I'm going to go check out some shed tests. Yeah, that's awesome. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure having you on here. We've been trying to get scheduled. You know you and I are both so busy and the time, you know, it's not a big time change. But uh, with your schedule of mine it's been crazy and I apologize for it taking so long, because I've I've been looking forward to this, uh, for obvious reasons. But uh, thank you so much again. Canadian antler hunting.
Speaker 2:Canadian antler dogs antler dogs, sorry, about that, it's all good.
Speaker 1:Just search, search, ben up, and I do follow you on Instagram, so and I'll I'll keep watching what you're doing. But anyway, ben, thank you so much and look forward to maybe getting to meet you in a person in the future.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that and likewise thank you.
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