Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Dr. Joe Wurster - Veterinary Insights for Gundog Owners. The Bird Dog Vet.
#32 When your beloved gun dog is miles from civilization with a medical emergency, knowing what to do can mean the difference between life and death. In this illuminating conversation with Dr. Joe Wurster, known throughout the bird dog community as "the bird dog vet," we dive into the specialized world of hunting dog medicine that many urban veterinarians rarely encounter.
Dr. Wurster reveals why he became a veterinarian after a career change from political science – his passion for bird dogs and the hunting community drove him to medicine. This unique perspective allows him to understand both the medical needs of working dogs and the practical realities hunters face in the field. His expertise has earned him the trust of renowned trainers like Ronnie and Susanna Smith, who consider him their go-to veterinarian for their valuable dogs.
The conversation takes a sobering turn as Dr. Wurster discusses pyothorax, a life-threatening condition caused by grass awns that he considers more dangerous than rattlesnake bites. "These dogs go from off their food to dead in a matter of days," he warns, emphasizing the importance of early recognition. His practical advice extends to creating relationships with veterinarians near your hunting destinations, carrying essential medications like metronidazole and cerenia for common travel-related GI issues, and assembling an effective field first aid kit.
Beyond emergency care, Dr. Wurster offers wisdom on nutrition, debunking marketing trends like grain-free diets while advocating for scientifically-researched foods. He shares insights on heat management techniques, including the proper use of rubbing alcohol on paw pads to cool overheated dogs, and discusses the value of genetic testing and health certifications for breeding quality gun dogs.
Whether you're a seasoned hunter or new to the sport, this episode provides invaluable knowledge to help keep your hunting companion healthy in the field and at home. Subscribe to Gundog Nation for more expert insights, and visit our website to join our community dedicated to preserving our heritage of gun dog ownership.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters mo pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project with called pitney myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on curb records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harley, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation.
Speaker 1:Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training the retriever. Cornerstone Gundog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone would be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next and what to do when problems arise. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom to learn how you can train your retriever. I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshen back up for hunt test season.
Speaker 1:I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of cornerstone gundog academy since 2016 and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I've used it. It's proven and tried, and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Hey, welcome back to Gundog Nation, and I've had the privilege of having some great veterinarians, seems like all the veterinarians I get on here from Texas A&M.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I got no problem with that. It's like a cult, right, Joe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit, and I'm a strange one because I spent some time on 40 Acres in Austin, so I'm a little bit of one of those guys oh wow, yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1:Blast me right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can be difficult.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, before we get digging in, I've just got to say, being a Kentuckian living in Texas for 13 years and I'm a University of Kentucky grad, I thought we were a pretty close-knit group. But University of Kentucky grad, I thought we were a pretty close-knit group, but not even close to Texas A&M grads. It's like a cult. They wear the ring and man. I like it, though. It's like a large fraternity slash sorority of people.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. My niece and nephew they both went to A&M and I kind of tell them, all the time they sort of drank the Kool-Aid. I was in vet school and came from Austin over to A&M, so I'm what they probably call a two-percenter. I think that's what they refer to.
Speaker 1:people like me that's like a religious conversion right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Me Baptist going to Catholic there you go. I better shut up on that note, All right so welcome. I'm coming to you today from Midland Texas. This is Kenneth Witt. In Gun Dog Nation I have Joe Worcester, dr Joe Worcester. I should say Sorry about that, that's all right.
Speaker 1:The way I met him. I've got to say this before we cut him loose. I was at a Ronnie Smith and Susanna Smith seminar at their home in Oklahoma and Ronnie Smith called this guy the bird dog vet, and pretty much I have the utmost respect for the Smiths. I'm sure you do too.
Speaker 1:They're wonderful people and some of the best trainers on the planet, and I've I say that without hesitation and I know some dang on good trainers, I've had them, a lot of them on here. But when he's, when he referred to you as the only vet he'll take his dogs to in crisis, that said a lot to me and I, just, matter of fact, I hit you up up there I said, man, I'm going to get you on the podcast Because, doc, I know that and that's what the purpose of this show is tonight is there are things that you see as a hunting dog vet and you are a hunter and you own hunting dogs, that your typical vet maybe in a city and people bring in their lap dogs, their poodles, their lap dogs or whatever kind of pet dog that might be let's just say pet dogs, for lack of better words that they they don't face the issues that you would face at your clinic. Expand on that if you don't mind.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely so. It's a and you know, ronnie and Susanna, to say something about them. They're great folks and they always bring me stuff that keeps me sort of engaged. It's never something simple, and so they're wonderful folks. Something simple and so they're wonderful folks. So, and you know, like to say that I'm a bird dog vet. I'm a bird dog guy that really decided to be a veterinarian because of bird dogs.
Speaker 1:You know, I yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have a background in, I've got a degree in political science and economics and I worked in public policy in Austin for about six years and just didn't love what I was doing. That'll make a man go to the dogs, right, that's exactly right Make a man go to the dogs. So you know, I was training dogs at the time and enjoying it and you know, just to hunt. And I grew up we're speaking, I'm in Wichita Falls and that's home for me and grew up around bird hunting. You know we used to have a huge wild quail population, which is kind of diminished, but that's kind of that was my activity and you kind of get into this mode of well, I really love doing this and I love dogs and I love bird dog people and so it's what drove me to the profession and so I guess I'm really I'm really focused when I get the chance and I don't always get the opportunity to work with, you know. And when I say bird dog, I mean that includes a lot, you know, so flushers, retrievers, pointers, and so it's really kind of cool to be able to work with folks who use their dog in a way that they were bred to be used, you know, I mean it's really that kind of thing and you know it gives me goosebumps just to kind of talk about, because they're just such a special creature, regardless of the breed, when you watch them do what they were bred to do out there in the field, it's just special. So out of that, you know, I went to vet school and, as you mentioned, I'm a 2001 graduate from Texas A&M University and they gave me a great education and allowed me to do some things. And you know I'm like I'm a weird guy. I've got a BA in political science and economics and so I've got a different background, but I decided to come back home. I actually had the opportunity to work for some guys that I just knew and respected a lot. They were my vets growing up and had an opportunity to come back to town and my wife is from a small town out here too and so I knew that I could hunt you know like it was going to be around bird dogs and and I can, that could be my you know downside sort of avocation hobby and as a result because we've had significant populations of birds and we used to have people coming in from all over the country, we would see different dogs kind of hit the door.
Speaker 2:You know that were bird dogs, you know there's somebody traveling or the people around here that lived here had a lot of them and so, that being the case, I feel like I've seen a few and they do have some unique issues. And they do have some unique issues. I mean, the first things that you think about is just the tremendous athletic abilities of these animals. I mean, they are specialized in a way that is just it's just God given. I mean you know you just you watch a bird dog run through the pasture and you're just like wow, bird dog run through the pasture and you're just like wow, and and so so they're getting out and doing stuff and they expose themselves to a lot of different things that you can see, um, that are unique injuries. I mean they're just different. Um, they travel a lot.
Speaker 2:So when you're getting a history from somebody, um, you know, like the the one, that that, um, I think the only reason that Ronnie and Susanna talked to me is we got lucky with a dog named Chief, you know, and he's the one that's been on the garden and gun, and he's just a beautiful Brittany and he was. He's a foundation sire for them and, and he was he had some real issues and he had blastomycosis, which is a fungal disease, and he had it in his chest and it was just, you know, not likely for him to survive and and honestly, I feel like we just got lucky and he was just such a great patient and so, but that's something that you would pick up traveling either to, you know, arizona, west Texas, you know that sort of thing, and so how do?
Speaker 2:you contract that, don, it's, it's a fungal disease, so it's in the environment and so like coccidioido, coccidioidomycosis, histoplasmosis, and these are just diseases that you'll see and you know, one of the things I think that happens to bird dogs too is that you know they're and I'm going to say bird dog, I'm going to mean pointing dog, I think as they run through the pasture they breathe in a lot, they're down there and they're close to the ground and so fungal disease is something that's not usually something we see but it's always on the list of things that we can deal with with the bird dog. You know, and I guess if you live in Arizona, valley fever, coccidioides is a really it's a big deal. I mean it happens to people. So when you say valley fever, people sort of know about it. But there's other diseases. So you know, I have a close friend who is he's a professional guide and dog man at a large ranch out west of town and west I say west of town.
Speaker 1:It's, you know, two hours west of town, which in west texas.
Speaker 2:That's not very far, that's a hop skip the jump right and and this dog, it was just, it was, we were the second bet to see it. It was just an unusual case and they, they just didn't know what was going on. And and it was a dog that ended up having um, some to ticks. And this is very diligent kennel, you know, like they're not, they weren't doing flea and tick control with like Brevecto year round. But you know, do we need to do it year round? And after that case I said to everybody you need to probably try to treat year round for ticks because of this one case. But this dog had Rocky Mountain spotted fever and she then got, you know, like bad proteinuria and you know it just took some time to figure out.
Speaker 2:But the fact that that was on the list and that we were thinking about things that bird dogs can get in West Texas, we were able to help that dog and she's on the road to recovery but she was not in great shape. So it's little anecdotes like that that you know, everybody can do it. It's just kind of I've got a special passion about it and so when I see a bird dog, you know, walk in the lobby, I'm like, oh, this will see what this is and you know, enjoy just talking to folks about, hey, what do you do with this dog? But you know, if it's a, if it's a pointer, a Boykin Spaniel, I'm there.
Speaker 1:That's right, I forgot you're a Boykin owner. Yeah, you and the proud.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, they're getting pretty popular in fact.
Speaker 1:In the last 10 years. It's crazy, the increase, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just because they're such cool little dogs, I got one. This is another funny anecdote that's not necessarily related to veterinary medicine, but I graduated from vet school and I really wanted a Boykin and I saw one that was on the Boykin Spaniel Rescue Society page. And you know, I just graduated from vet school and my wife, she just got done with school, and so we were really didn't have a whole lot. And so I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're like, okay, well, this dog needs a home, you know. And and I was looking on the foster page and you know like they, this dog, this dog, you know, ready to go, moses. And I'm like, well, I'll just inquire.
Speaker 2:And the fact that I was a veterinarian helped, I think. And then so I was talking to my wife, I said, what do you think about this getting a Boykin Spaniel? Let's look on the website. And I had already made the, I had already agreed to take this dog right. So and I said, what do you think of Moses? And she said, well, it says adopted underneath his name. I said, well, he's coming, he'll be here in two days. I'm going to DFW to pick him up. And that was where it all started for me, and so he was a. He was a fantastic little dog, and so, ever since, I've always had one to run behind my pointers.
Speaker 1:Well, Joe, when did you first, when did you first cross paths with a Smiths?
Speaker 2:So so probably I want to say I was, I was in Austin, I wasn't even, I hadn't even decided to go to vet school and went to a. Actually I was planning on going to vet school, I think, because I had this little pointer puppy. And you know, you can kind of always relate things in your life, at least for me, and in times of that, when that dog okay, I took that puppy down there but I went down to Pleasanton because Rick was having a seminar, and you know, like again, just knew the reputation of those guys and so I went to Pleasanton and went to that seminar. So that's when I first met A Smith and then, when I got out of vet school, ended up going to Bronnie's probably in 2002, you know, right then, and you know, went all those seminars and just just love that whole thing and loved handling dogs and and and working. You know, like the thing that dawned on me after going to those seminars and and I've been to a bunch of them now is what good people, bird, dog people are. You know, like you, just, you can always, you always have a conversation, you can always talk about something, and so you know, going to those seminars it was. It was just kind of heartwarming to see these people who really were interested in learning about their dog and and that kind of rolled into just sort of talking about veterinary things in in really an informal way. And so now I try to get up there when I can to to just take a little time after lunch, when it gets hot, I feel like, and then talk about the things like we talked about, ken, you know, which are simple things that I think every bird dog owner should know.
Speaker 2:But, as you mentioned, a lot of folks nowadays these dogs are family members, mine included. They're living in the house, they're not just kennel dogs, they're really something that somebody's paying a lot of attention to. And these folks live in, you know, metropolitan area and their vet is not necessarily somebody who identifies. You know they understand that this is their patient and things like that, but they don't understand what somebody does with their dog and I think it's sometimes difficult to relate. You know, and that might be me too. I mean I have difficulty probably relating to. You know I don't know you pick the breed on her. I mean it's not something that I relate to. But when we get to those seminars, you understand that these folks don't necessarily always get good veterinary advice. That relates to being out in the field, you know, traveling with their dog and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not seeing porcupine quills and snake bites and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And the simple stuff too that really you know, I try to get people just to prepare for, and one of the things that I think the first thing you should do when you're going to field with your dog is really know where you're kind of going, know what the veterinary resources are around you. And there's a gentleman, seth Bynum, is a veterinarian and I don't know Seth from Adam, but he's putting together an app and a website that really is trying to identify these folks like me who live in areas where people hunt, who they can contact if there's a necessity for a veterinarian. Because in an emergency I tell people all the time in a veterinary emergency, the most important thing you probably have is the keys to your truck, getting somewhere where somebody who can help you. Now you can triage that and you can do some things obviously stopping bleeding and trying to make sure they've got good airway free, up an airway so they can breathe, if they've got something in their mouth, but really it's just finding somebody who's a resource for you and I think that Seth doing that is fantastic. And I don't know if you got show notes. I can get you those show notes where that website is and that sort of thing. I don't even know if I'm on there as somebody, but he's really doing an effort and I learned this through Susanna like saying, hey, you need to get on this website because this is what Seth's trying to do, and so that's an important thing for you to be able to do. But you should probably do it before you go. Like, you know, you're getting prepared, you're getting all your gear together, you're making sure your colors are all working, you know, and all your electronics and everything's just right, and you don't want to forget anything.
Speaker 2:But really, if you just took the time to look and see the veterinarians that are out there and reach out to them, honestly a quick two minute telephone conversation to the office is huge. Because, for instance, at my office, you know, like we see regular clients after hours because we don't have an emergency clinic. But if I knew somebody was going to be in town and they called and said, hey, so-and-so's bird dog, I'm out here in Childress and we've got a snake bite or we've got a dog doing this, and so can we come to you. And that happens, honestly, quite a bit. And as long as we sort of knew that, then we're it's an open door policy right, and so that's.
Speaker 2:If it's after hours it can get a little weird and a lot of these places and you know West Texas is home, so a lot of times I think in those terms. But you know you're you're working with a mixed animal guy who may be out doing some other thing, you know, who doesn't have time to help you sedate your dog and do porcupine quills right away because he's on a farm call. But if you can get a hold of him and tell him what you got and you need some help, you can set something up with him. And so I really feel like that's. The other thing is, don't just sort of know. There's some vets in the area. Do your due diligence to try to understand what their resources are. You know, if you're in a snake endemic area it's always okay to ask do you have any antivenin?
Speaker 1:You know, like like how do you treat snake bites? Not every vet carries that in stock, correct?
Speaker 2:Not not, um, no, we, I guess not. I mean, cause the real issue is is expensive. You know, I think our cost on a vial is is $250, $300 for a vial of that stuff and and're in a mixed animal vet in a rural location, you may not have the resources to have four or five vials of that in your fridge, and so that's a question to ask. I mean, I think a lot of folks would, and you know, not to mention they're experienced at doing it, so they may have a different approach than the approach that I espouse, but you know they're going to give you the things that they can, which is probably in a snake bite antibiotics, fluid support, hopefully antivenin if they've got it, and and that's going to go a long way, so so, so those kinds of things that you can do, just sort of pre-trip, you know, just kind of thinking through that about it is is the things that I try to tell folks.
Speaker 2:Now the other things that I usually talk about is the most common thing on the road with a dog that you'll see is GI issues. You know they get stressed, they don't want to eat, they might, you know, vomit, you know, in the car, and certainly they can have colitis or stress diarrheas, and so I try to get people to have that conversation with their veterinarian before they go. And and to me I am. You know, maybe I'm showing my age a little bit because I have some new graduates who who may have a different approach to this, but if I'm talking to somebody about it, I feel like you should travel with a few things to deal with GI disease, and some of those things are maybe a little controversial, but not so much, I think, in my perspective. But, like Fortiflora is a product that Purina makes, it's a fantastic probiotic and so you should always travel with that because if your dog starts to have a colitis and a stress diarrhea, you can start feeding that. In fact, when I'm talking at a seminar, I tell folks, go ahead and start, get you some of this and before you leave, start, you know, five days, three days before you go, and start putting it on the food, Because you can kind of get that gut healthier before you ever get away, and I think that can avoid a lot of problems, you know, and and the thing about it too is it's an appetite stimulant, so they like it, so they'll, they'll or they want to eat it. It's really palatable, so you put it on a lot of dog's food and they'll want to eat it and so so that's, that's kind of the easy thing.
Speaker 2:Now, some of the things that I recommend that I would do that I won't travel without. One of those things is an antibiotic called metronidazole or Flagyl, and if you've got a dog that is really having difficulty with diarrhea, I feel like it can stop. Like I said, those things are controversial and you might have heard me say this, Ken. I don't think the research is very good on that right now and the anecdotal evidence that I have for 25 years is pretty good about how it helps, and so I'm I'm all about having somebody travel with it because it can stop a bad diarrhea, because those dogs can get dehydrated and get in bad shape in a hurry, and you're you know, you're not even you're in between where you're going to go, and there's nothing worse than traveling with a dog with diarrhea. I mean, there's just nothing worse than that.
Speaker 2:Um, so so that's one of the things that I try to recommend people get and talk to their veterinarian about, or have a frank conversation, and if you're not happy with the answer, then you know, maybe find somebody who you can talk to about it. Um, because younger vets are going to probably tell you no or they're going to say, well, I don't know, your dog isn't sick, so should we really give it? And they got to trust you. You know, like I trust the people that that that come to my clinic and if we have a good conversation about, hey, this is what needs to, this is what you need to travel with, or I want, I want to have this doc, Is that okay? You know, like, like thunderstorm phobias, that's one that I get some. Hey, it's a bad deal, Can we have these drugs, just in case? I'm like absolutely, you know, I trust you, You're not going to do something dumb and long as we talk about the dosing and what the right thing is.
Speaker 2:You know, I think sometimes medical professionals get a little paternalistic and don't always trust their clients, and I think that's a bad move. So metronidazole is one that I feel like that everybody should travel with. And then the other thing that helps with GI disease is a fantastic product nowadays called serenia and serenia, and I can get you all that stuff for show notes. It'll stop vomiting, it helps with nausea, it is just a really good drug and a very safe drug. So those are the things I think for GI disease that people just need to think about. You know and carry with them and know that there is a need for them and you may not ever need it, but if you got it you're going to be way ahead of the game.
Speaker 1:Before I forget, I want to ask you another question I'm going to put it on pause about first aid kits to travel with, but before I do that, how much of your practice do you think is hunting dogs?
Speaker 2:So people that own dogs that hunt them occasionally, it's not very high. I mean, I'll be honest with you, it's probably 5% to 10%.
Speaker 1:What about ranch dogs? Yeah, if you include those, I mean we do with you, it's probably 5% to 10%.
Speaker 2:What about ranch dogs?
Speaker 1:If you include those, it's probably 10% 10% 15%, Because they face a lot of the same issues. Correct Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's another type of dog that has a job and is hugely important to those folks that have a need. I mean, I have a very, very close friend that lives east of town and he has a yearling operation and he has forever been in Besada. He is a cowboy, he is a Marlboro man and he can't ride anymore and so he has working dogs that do a tremendous job for him. So same sort of thing and he has. This guy has pointers too in between. I guess, if we talk about percentage I don't know he's probably got 15 or 20 dogs and I take care of all of them, and so I've seen a bunch of wrecks through that too. But working dogs certainly have those same sort of risks, whether that's some sort of trauma, fence trauma, cow trauma, you know, get stepped on, rattlesnake bites, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Now Doc up in your area. There in Wichita Falls, do you see a lot of hounds hunting hounds.
Speaker 2:We don't. I mean there are people that will hog hunt, so there's some hog hunters that do that. One of the things that we see a little bit around here is is sight hound work, you know, like coyote hunts, and so I've got a few friends that do that, you know, and so and I I've never been, but from what I understand it's, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't been. Those videos of my cab chill bumps, it's something, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and and and. When you watch a sight hound, so greyhound type dog, when you watch them at full breakneck speed running it is.
Speaker 1:It's to me it's like a thoroughbred horse, you just go wow well, and them running against a coyote is like a thoroughbred running against a mule. Yeah, I mean it's they run a coyotes down. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and so so. So there's a little of that around here too. There aren't a whole lot of folks that are, that are using hounds, except for for for hog hunting, I guess, and you know you don't see a lot of dog or beagles. No, it's, it's just not big beagle country. I guess we don't have a whole lot of coons that people hunt. I mean, I feel like we've got a lot of them.
Speaker 1:Just have the big trees to tree them.
Speaker 2:That's probably true. I'm out here in the country right now, like I told you, and I feel like you know, if you see a tree, that's probably oh, eight feet tall. It's a tall tree around here.
Speaker 1:Most of them are just little shrubs, mesquites, and that's about it. Purina ProPlan. Here at Gun Dog Nation, we use Purina ProPlan for our dogs. We actually use the Sport Performance Edition, which is 30% protein and 20% fat the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s for their joints. It also contains amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics. It's guaranteed to have live probiotics in each serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you you use it and we are so proud to be sponsored by purina dog food. Yep, I'm in midland. If you see a tree that tall, it's been watered artificially. That's exactly right. Uh, does it in hunting season? Does your practice get a little busier or does your phone get a little busier?
Speaker 2:So we will see more of those types of cases and my practice is incredibly busy. Anyway, I'm a very fortunate person, I mean I feel like we're as busy as we want to be on any given day. And one of the things, like we'll see the trends that we see, like we'll see snake bite trends, like so this time of year right now we were kind of knock on wood. We haven't really seen any that I can remember here recently. But they start to happen, you know, as the snakes start to move and they kind of come out and it warms up. So we're kind of in that mode and sort of the spring and fall and those are the dogs that you know that are out in the field and that sort of thing that we see. So you know, there's some things that when we talk about specific issues for bird dogs and I think this, everybody is always worried about snake bites.
Speaker 2:And a good friend in Edmond is an equine vet and his name is Brian Carroll. He's met him through Ronnie and Susanna and he's a sharp, sharp vet. He's an equine guy, so he does repro and he understood at one seminar he kind of said to me he said everybody wants to worry about snake bites. You know I'm not worried about snake bites because most of them aren't lethal, but they're scary and they have bad and you can't predict them. The thing that I worry about is these pyothorax, nocardia and actinomyces cases, and so everybody that runs any kind of dog in the field needs to have an appreciation for that. And those are the cases that can be really bad and lethal in bird dogs. I mean, I think anybody who's been around field dogs long enough knows somebody who's lost a dog to a pyothorax and so what happened you have to educate me there, Joe.
Speaker 1:I don't know that. I'm not familiar with it.
Speaker 2:So a pyothorax and I do think this is, if we can get one thing across this podcast, this is it, this is for sure it. So grass ons are seeds that have sort of a little spear grass to them, so foxtails, and so we have spear grass around here and so what they do is they'll get in the hair coat. But they can also migrate and so when they migrate, they migrate through. They're really bad when they migrate through the thoracic cavity. They can also migrate through the cutaneous tissue as well as the abdomen, and so they can cause problems because the bacteria that get associated with them. So it's these we call them fastidious bacteria, it's nocardia and actinomyces, and they are hard, hard to clear. They're infections that are just really, really, really difficult. But the issue with when they get a pyothorax and by pyothorax that just means infection in the thorax these dogs that are just stoic and tough, they go from off their food to dead in a matter of days. And if you know enough guys that go out to the Dakotas to run dogs early in the season, they're always worried about it. So field trial trainers that'll go out there and do that thing and we really don't have a great way to deal with it preemptively. That's the hard part about it. You just have to be really focused on your dog and when there's something wrong with them, especially if you have a dog that's just off their food and not quite right and it's a bird dog that's been running in the field, if it's been in, you know, honestly, anywhere you can have these and we have them around here. I know you can get them out west and in the western states as well, but it's, it's one of those things that if you have a field dog, that's always on my list, that's always on my list to say, ok, we need to shoot x-rays, and I'm fortunate enough in my practice we would do a CT, we would look for that stuff to try to get ahead of it until it's because it literally will be about to kill them.
Speaker 2:Most of the time. When they come to the door and I've seen it you know probably 20 times just where those dogs are, just, just just in terrible, terrible shape and you have to put chest tubes in them and do all sorts of invasive stuff. And what I would love to do is figure out a way that we can treat it preemptively. There's some antibiotic protocols that I don't necessarily love, because they just put these dogs on a huge doses of antibiotics that preemptively. And the reason they're doing it is because it's such an impotent feeling where you you don't know if your dog's going to have it and you're just trying to keep it from being a problem.
Speaker 2:So that is something that every every bird dog, field dog owner should know is like, look, that's that's, your vet needs to have that on the list. Any bird dog that is on my list, whether they come in for any other reason, you know it's like, okay, do they have that? And? And so that's that's one of those things that I think every that's walk around knowledge for for bird dog people just to have it. Well, I can't remember what doc said. There was some sort of thing about you know a grass on or or or Fox tails, because it's it's something that if you can get ahead of it you can help them and if you get behind it you might be in a lot more trouble.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, yeah, I'm not. I've not dealt with that, thank God yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank God. Yeah, exactly, and it is devastating when it happens, and you know it's invariably, you know, and I think this happens to just dogs in general, but it's always the dogs that are the big going dog that cover a ton of country, that just have absolutely just this capacity for you know, just to be tough and love what they're doing, and those are the dogs. Unfortunately, I feel like a lot of this stuff happens to you know.
Speaker 1:Just to be tough and love what they're doing.
Speaker 2:Those are the dogs. Unfortunately, I feel like a lot of this stuff happens to Like an English pointer type Just any dog that loves to hit the country in the field. It's never the potlicker right, it's never the dog that. Oh well, that one hunts once a year kind of thing.
Speaker 1:It's always the one that's just like chief, I guess, for Ronnie and Susanna. Well, that's definitely a new one on me and I guess there's no preventative medicines, just treating symptoms right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:And so again, if there and I think any dog, that's just not quite right, that's a bird dog, you know it just comes up and then you know that's, it just comes up, and then you know we start looking, so you can pick up on those things with some of the blood work and imaging that we would do to try to find it. But it's a deal that again, I guess that you know not to just scare everybody, but it's one of those things that can be devastating. And the other part about all those workups that I'm talking about is the cost of doing them. Really, you know, I mean and and well, this could be a totally different tangent about you know, whether or not you insure your dog, um, I don't know what the right answer is, but you know, for a workup like that and treatment, it could be, you know, three to ten thousand dollars on something like that if you're doing a ct and you're doing something to to keep the, the dog alive and keeping them in oxygen and they need icu care.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, it's, it's scary and again, I don't, I don't mean to be too scary to folks, but that's that one I worry more about than rattlesnake, because rattlesnake, I know what to do, I can see it, I know it's happened, it's, it's, it's, it's like a cookbook almost, and if you do things right, I think we usually feel like I'd say 90 plus 95% survivability on a rattlesnake bite. It's that high.
Speaker 1:Now this other issue that you were just talking about is that mostly in the high plains in the West. Is it all over the US? Where do you see those cases most?
Speaker 2:it is, I mean. So. So the dakotas, I would say um west texas for sure, um, those are the places that that have these. You know, california, um is, is notorious for fox tails, though, um, those it really is. It's sort of western states is probably, you know, pra, probably prairie kind of type countries.
Speaker 1:And speargrass is also.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what we have around here, At least that's what we've always caused it. In fact, I probably got some in my socks because I was just out mowing, right, but it's one of those things that you know it because it's got this little on. It's one of those things that it's you know it because it's got this little on and it's, it's, it's, it's meant to stick into tissue or or um, it's the way it propagates, Right, so it gets in the hair coat and then it ends up somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Okay, I know you really, I've got a small herd of cattle and I know you really want to make sure that doesn't get in hay. Yeah Right, yeah, yeah, want to make sure that doesn't get in hay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's all sorts of. I'm no large animal vet by any means. I tell people I don't even treat my own horses, I let somebody else do it, uh. But uh, there's a lot of stuff that, yeah, you have to watch out and for in that feed, for sure um with your busy practice.
Speaker 1:How often you get to hunt?
Speaker 2:so, uh, between, I have a daughter that's going to be she's. She just finished her junior year of college and she was a very active tennis player growing up. So I went on a hiatus for a while and I'm gearing up now to be, uh, a lot more active in my hunting, uh. But but you know, uh, hopefully we've we've lost all our wild birds around here, which is unfortunate. You have to go West, probably, at least, probably, oh, probably, 70 to a hundred miles, and then you're finding them. I mean, they're out there for sure, and the, the, the populations have just moved and who, who knows why, they've spent all sorts of resources. You know there's people that really care about it because there are some real classic places to hunt within probably you know 25 miles of me that are just classic North Central Texas quail country and it's unfortunate so we don't have them, but we've got a lot of rain, so who knows, maybe this year Were those bobwhites.
Speaker 1:Yes sir, yes sir.
Speaker 2:We used to have a few blues out west of Wichita Falls, but it's primarily always been Bob White Quail.
Speaker 1:You know. Oddly enough, my ranch is outside of Menard. You probably know that area. Yes, sir, this year for the first time and I've only had that place six years I've got Bob White's.
Speaker 1:And I've seen them on the road, my neighbor's seeing them. We see especially in the winter. We were seeing coveys January, december. I haven't seen them lately but I was shocked. I mean I've never seen them. I used to have a ranch in Coleman, had quail all the time, right yeah and but not not out there. But it's so nice to see. I won't shoot them, I'm not going to. I love to hunt but I'm not going to shoot those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess I've softened in my old age too. You know my primary weapon is a starter pistol, just to make the noise, to let my dogs think they've done something. And I'm just a bad shot because I'm sort of the same way. I mean, I think in my line of work we deal with death a lot and and I prefer just to to go find them and let the dogs handle them and and go on to find another covey. But you know there's there. There are definitely some places that have gone from not having a lot of them to to actually getting a pretty good population out west of here.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's encouraging. I mean, you know, I'd never seen a blue quail until I moved to Midland 13 years ago and when I moved here I saw them a lot and I think it's still pretty decent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So bobwhites, they're kind of the gentleman version, and blues maybe not so much. You know they tend to run and go, but if you get them busted up then kind of you can hunt them a little easier once you get them separated.
Speaker 1:I need to ask you this, and since you are a West Texan native and a bird hunter, uh, I would assume and I've been told when I talk to people about it that you really don't want to use dogs on blues right?
Speaker 2:Oh, you know, I think that's. That's not necessarily always the case. I mean, I think that the, the, the and the people that do it a lot use dogs. It's. It's the way you. You kind of have to bust up the covey and then you start to hunt the singles, and it's. There are a lot of people that do it sort of in a rodeo fashion with dune buggies and all that other stuff, but you can hunt them with dogs for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just I know they run like crazy on the ground. I always try to picture how would a dog hunt that? But I've never done it.
Speaker 2:I've never tried it. I bet you've got some listeners that are blue quail hunters that can specialize in it. It is, it's all about they run, run, run. But once you get them to fly and get them separated and get them to hit cover, they'll hold. It just takes a little time.
Speaker 1:Well, if any of those listeners are listening today, contact me. I want to go. I'm in. Midland and I'll drive. Yeah, you're close. I think it'd be something to see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that was my experience. I went out oh gosh, it's been a while going out to hunt sharp-tailed and prairie chickens out in South Dakota. I just kind of always wanted to do it and we did it horseback, and it was the most incredible thing I had ever been involved in. Because hunting wise, because you know those birds are just, they're cagey, they can see you coming, your dogs, your dogs have to be so honest and I think that's why a lot of guys go out there and train in the sort of late summer, early fall on those young prairie chickens and sharptails, because your dog can't pressure and push them too hard, Otherwise they're just gone. But it's just beautiful country.
Speaker 1:You know I'm going to do that this year in the western part of South Dakota and then I'm going to come back and pheasant hunt in the eastern part. Is it really? I assume that's challenging. Like you probably don't see a huge amount of those sharp tails in your hunting, or do you? You?
Speaker 2:can in places. Um, you know, we did it. Um, when we did it, we went to the fort pier national grasslands, which is just uh, south of pier, uh, and we camped out and there are a lot of people because it's public hunting. Well, we took horses and and we were the texans with horses that could cover all sorts of country with these big run of dogs. I think everybody hated us and it took us a while to figure it out. I mean, you know, like you, you'd have to be so quiet and your horse couldn't make any noise and your tack had to be kind of quiet. But it it's, it was just beautiful.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was just the neatest thing ever and um, I would know it again in a heartbeat, was it a do-it-yourself horseback hunt?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, oh, it was absolutely. Yeah, we took our horses and, you know, just went up there and camped out and we did it in nebraska too, and it was, it was fantastic, it was, it was one of the the neatest things that I've done hunting wise um that in a long time. So I'm sure there's guys that are like, oh, don't tell them about that, you know like it's a good place to go, but but you know, and and and unfortunately some of those, those, those species are kind of having some difficulty because of a lot of different environmental impacts. So I feel fortunate to have being able to have done it the way I did it, um so, Well, maybe a stupid question.
Speaker 1:I've horseback hunted for elk, but I didn't literally hunt off my horse, right, I just use it to get to places Right. When you, when you guys are doing that, are you hunting off the horse?
Speaker 2:So you, you are hunting off the horse.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're not, you get off to shoot.
Speaker 2:Most people do Not always, but yeah, not always. I know some people that don't, but but it's just a lot safer that way. Your horse ground ties so you can just walk away from them and they're there, hopefully, because otherwise it's a long walk. But yeah, it's. It is that.
Speaker 1:Or you get somebody you know when you're hunting, buddy holds a range or whatever but you get off to handle your dog and it's such a great way to handle a dog, you know it is really it's it's one of my things that I just if I get to do more of it in the next you know hopefully 25 years, I'll be a happy man and, if I understand correctly, some of the field trials with pointers and stuff they do from horseback right, some of the old field trials.
Speaker 2:Yeah, In fact, most of the field trials around here that are, you know, I guess there's some walking trials like NBHA trials, but the trials that are the horseback trials they're they're all horseback and covering big country and there's. I was, I had the fortune to judge one out at the quail research ranch out in Roe v and it was all on wild birds, horseback and it was, it was. It was a great experience last year. So, yeah, yeah, it's fun stuff. I mean, if you're a bird dog guy and you can find somebody who has a horse that you can hop on and just watch, just ride in the gallery, it's fun stuff.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd love to do that. I have to. I've got to sign up for that somehow.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll hook you up for that. Well, we'll get you.
Speaker 1:I'm serious, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know I could ride trail riding, but I'm not a hardcore, experienced horse horseman.
Speaker 2:You know how much has that changed. You know, like, when I think about how many miles I walked bird hunting before, you know, kawasaki invented the mule and Polaris invented the Ranger and all the all the ones afterwards, and that's just changed everything you know. And GPS collars you know I've been through the beeper collar and the radio tracking collar and all of that stuff and thank goodness Garmin's got something that we can all hand and use. And you know, like, again you get back to come full circle with that. Your dogs are your pets and you love them and you've you got to take them home. And the fact that you can find them and not lose them like we used to uh is is a good thing you know I I was never a real hardcore raccoon hunter but I've gone with friends and and I remember going.
Speaker 1:You know they pull out the antennas and you know tracker thing. It was like a metal detector basically. But that was the trip. And you know I'm from southeast Kentucky, so I'm from Appalachian Mountains and you know you get in there walking. It's not real fun after a coon dog. Yeah, you walk about four hours and it's straight up and straight down. It burned me out. That's why I'm not a coon hunter today. Now, if I could coon hunt in the flatlands I'd probably be all about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:My closest friend. He grew up in Indiana. He grew up a coon hunter and he's a converted coon hunter. Now he's a bird dog guy. But yeah, same sort of thing.
Speaker 1:You know I've had a few. I've actually had the current world champion coon dog owner on here and handler, and I've had the one of the winningest dogs, I think, in the in the business right now. Who was who's the father of that dog had him on here too. And you know those guys, uh, they make money. I mean, yeah, serious money, and it's uh in in cone hunting. I was like, you know, I've never had a hobby that I made money. It's just been a lot. And if I could figure that one out, yeah, I mean, one of the dogs on here that I've had on here won over seven figures. Wow, that's amazing. And a couple of the young dogs and they were three or four years old were already over the six-figure mark. You know it. I just unbelievable yeah, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:And then you start you start thinking about their, their breeding potential and all that. I mean you know, and that's something that's come a long way too, and I've, over the years, done a little bit of that, that sort of refro work, but but you know, now that's you can, kind of kind of that. Things have gotten just so much better with regard to that in terms of the quality of the people doing it and just your ability to have a sire that you can collect and freeze, and I think it's just better for the breeds, it's better for everything. You can really start to refine some of the characteristics that you want.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask you that. So do you do some AI and stuff there?
Speaker 2:So I've kind of gotten out of it. I used to do a lot of it and it's just, you know, this is if you do too much of it. If I can do bird dog AI and bird dog fertility, it would be great. Unfortunately, you end up and this is not to offend anybody you end up doing a bunch of French bulldogs and other things that you're really not interested in propagating, at least me personally. So you know, if I could just work exclusively on doing repro for the right type of dogs that I think you know there should be more of, I'd probably be a little more into it.
Speaker 1:You're saying if you could discriminate, exactly, there you go. I like the way you put that. No, I can understand your point of view there, definitely.
Speaker 2:But that's something that's out there and folks, just if you're doing that kind of thing and you want to breed your dog, you just need to do your homework and, from the veterinary perspective, you know, do all the pre-testing and all the things you know to make sure your dog is sound and make sure it's going to be a good, has good breeding potential. That's the veterinary word.
Speaker 1:Do you do OFA x-rays?
Speaker 2:We do OFA we used to do pen hip and we do other genetic testing, and that's again something that's come us such a long way. You know, now we've got a bunch of tests that we can run, you know, for a variety of genetic diseases, and that's like I just I have a one-year-old Boykin Spaniel and the reason I got this dog is because somebody locally which was crazy to me I see this dog coming in and they're doing all these tests and we're doing, you know, a echo of the heart, you know so, echocardiogram, and we're sending off OFA for hips and elbows and then this series of other blood work tests. And I was just blown away, first of all, at all the things that they were doing and I think they might be required to do by the Boykin Spaniel Society. But I was like, wow, this is a dog. If this dog passes all of this, I want a pup from you.
Speaker 2:That's the kind of what I sort of determined, but it did. It kind of got me back into understanding all the things that are out there to test for. And it was, and that's only getting more and more common, you know, and not only does that include some of the genetic things that you would test for. But we're now in a place where we're testing for we're doing some liquid biopsy type stuff for different types of cancer, so we're able to draw blood and get some things to screen for different things. I work with a lab company that is really doing some really good things to develop testing for and some really good things to develop testing for. They're really working on cancer but just a lot of other things that help us keep our dogs around a lot longer and keep them healthy.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you a two-part question. One, I'm going to ask you first to explain to listeners what pin hip is, and two, I want your opinion and advice as to is that a really good, accurate tool for determining dysplasia down the line?
Speaker 2:so first question on pen hip. So so I've never been pen hip certified. I had a veterinarian that I worked with that was and the advantage to pen hip and and it was developed at the university of pennsylvania. You could do it early, you, you know, because when you're doing OFAs you really need to wait probably until they're two. But they were doing they, they developed a technique where they could start to pick up on dysplasia and other issues earlier, and so that was the key to PenHIP.
Speaker 2:I think you know my experience has really been exclusively with OFA and it's a test. I mean you know like, is it a good test? There's the radiology review on that. I think they usually get three of them and so those are boarded radiologists that are looking at those films, and it's about all you can do, right, I mean it helps. It just helps keep some of that information sort of front of mind. I mean I think that's really what it is and you know, if your dog's got bad hips you probably shouldn't breed it, but that doesn't mean that there weren't dogs bred with bad hips that weren't genetic bad hips, you know like. So it's just, if you're being as responsible as you can, pen hip or OFA on those dogs is about only tests that we got and you know it doesn't. It's also elbows, you know that's that's. That's another thing to to to check most bird dogs.
Speaker 1:So do you feel that the pin hip is a pretty good tool?
Speaker 2:I think. So I mean I think that that again, any kind of any kind of testing that you're doing to to that you're going against a standard. You're looking at something and you're trying to standardize it to give you the best information on the, the potential for problems down the line, because there's nothing more heartbreaking than you know. You've got a dog with all this potential that's carrying a genetic issue that you wish somebody had had figured out before they bred, and so that's that's. That's carrying a genetic issue that you wish somebody had figured out before they bred, and so that's the goal. So I think it's probably a pretty decent test. Again, I'm an OFA guy, so I've done more OFAs than never been a pen-hip guy.
Speaker 1:Now are both of those tests. They're still subjective to a degree, right? I mean, it's still interpretation of an x-ray, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that's where the multiple folks doing it comes in. That's where you know, like you know what they say about opinions, right, and so it is that it's an educated opinion based on training and experience. You know, like a lot of us, if you're not going to get your pet or your dog OFA certified, at least get some hips and have a guy who's got some experience looking at those hips going yes, these are good, no, they're not, because you know bad when you see it. And then everything else is kind of gets graded. But that's why they do multiple people, because some people will grade them harder than others and that's why you kind of gets graded. But that's why they do multiple people, because some people will grade them harder than others and that's why you kind of get a composite score on that. Okay.
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Speaker 2:No, we do not do pin hip now, we do ofa um and then the other yeah, the other question is is do you sedate them or not for ofa?
Speaker 2:um, and some guys don't like to have their dogs sedated for ofa and you know, like my opinion is, if you you relax them, you're going to get much better films, and the motive I think for not sedating them is that maybe they hold those hips in and it's a little different view. But I feel like if you're going to do it, you sedate them and you send them to OFA and let them evaluate them.
Speaker 1:Does the OFA have a requirement? Either way, sedated or non-sedated.
Speaker 2:You know you have to mark it when you submit it, whether it for sedated or non-sedated. You know you have to. You have to mark it when you submit it whether it was sedated or not sedated. Um, and and. So I think that'll come out in their report, um, and and you know, like there's been some people who, or there's been some and and again it's the boykin spaniel folks that I have the most familiar with familiarity with, they have done a really good job of keeping some of that stuff from being a persistent problem in a very narrow breeding pool. I mean, I think their breeding pool is pretty narrow, not like you know English pointers, english setters, german short hair pointers. You know huge genetic diversity in those dogs and so that's just all been done by being diligent, upfront in the breeding process.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you know, and I know a lot of breeders do. Uh, I think the correct words ophthalmologists. You know they have the eye test yeah, surf certification I know you're not an ophthalmologist, I don't think, but explain that to me I've had it done for my dogs, but I don't really know what they're doing so they're looking at the retina so so, um, so.
Speaker 2:So there are a couple diseases, congenital diseases, some of them we can now test for with blood tests. But the best thing is to have a trained veterinary ophthalmologist evaluate the retina and the fundus so they dilate the eye and they give it. You know. They basically say, yes, you've got a clear retina that doesn't show any evidence of vascular attenuation or things like that, where it's just healthy and that is in the breeds that have it. And again, boykin Spaniels require CERF certification, I think, and so I think that's a good test for that disease.
Speaker 2:I actually I have my own experience with a Brittany that developed sudden, acquired retinal degeneration, so she went blind in about two or three days, kind of thing. So it just happened all of a sudden, not necessarily something that you could have picked up with a surf certification. It's a pretty rare, maybe you know metabolic disease. They don't really totally understand it. And this was 25 years ago, this is before vet school, so and then I had another dog of a friend of mine, whose dog he was a nine-year-old pointer, and pointers do have some progressive retinal atrophy, and actually bred my dog to this dog and then he, he developed PRA and we did everything kind of by the book but we didn't do a surf certification on this dog and had we, we probably would have avoided breeding them. Come to find out, none of the pups had any issues with any kind of progressive retinal atrophy, and that's another thing that we can certainly test for now, I think even genetically Okay now you make sense.
Speaker 1:I recall seeing PRA on some health tests.
Speaker 2:Labradors was it Labradors that you were looking at? Because that's a big deal in labs.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. Also yeah, because I have labs which you know that. You saw me there, but this is just a question I've gotten, not scientific, but does that eye test that we just talked about, the CERF test, yeah, cerf certification. But does that eye test that we just talked about, the CERF test, yeah, cerf certification. Can it detect or predict cataracts or is that, just something that just develops. I don't understand. I know what cataracts are, but I don't understand how it develops or what it is. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a couple different types of cataracts, and in cataracts for us and I've seen this in bird dogs and et cetera they can develop traumatic cataracts where something gets in there and it gets into their eye and it punctures the lens, and so once that lens capsule gets punctured they can develop a cataract from the inflammation. The types of cataracts that we see that are congenital or genetic. There can be juvenile cataracts, and so those talker spaniels are a breed that may have been predisposed previously and those Cocker Spaniels are a breed that may have been predisposed previously. So I can't now I can't attest to this, to whether there's a test specifically for juvenile cataracts or not. That would be something that they would pick up on a surf certification though, that the lens was clear, that there wasn't any opacity to it in whatever dog they were doing. But dog eyes are just like our eyes pretty much, with the exception of they have fewer rods and cones, so they don't see the same color and visual acuity that we do, but they develop cataracts because they have UV exposure just like we do.
Speaker 2:So if a dog lives long enough, it's going to have cataracts, and some of them will get them a little earlier than others, but it has to do primarily with uv exposure and and it's hard sometimes, um, because it does affect their their ability to see in low light situations. So I would think for somebody who has an old coonhound older coonhound that started to develop cataracts, that could be a pretty big deal. Um, but you can't, you can't necessarily predict it, and it's going to happen to all of us is probably the right way to say it. Okay, good enough.
Speaker 1:But don't hold me on that.
Speaker 2:I think there may be a juvenile cataract test and certainly that's part of the CERF certification.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you know, I'll just say that because you know I'll see dogs sometimes that's older and you'll see that kind of haze over their eyes and you can tell they can't see that. Great, okay, yeah, that's what.
Speaker 2:That is right yeah, that's exactly what that is. Um, you know, just kind of that cloudy looking eye it's. It's just the lens is no longer clear, you know. So that lens, if it's nice and clear, it doesn't. It doesn't the light doesn't hit it and and bounce back, and so they just they, they all get it with time. Now, the thing I tell people who have pet animals, for that matter, is that dogs don't rely on their eyes like we do, so they don't drive a car, they don't read the newspaper, and so they can really accommodate a visual deficit. Low light situations are the trouble, but you know like there's some dogs who can get around just fine, even with pretty mature cataracts so interesting.
Speaker 1:I think I've seen that, seen older dogs like that. Yeah, that's interesting um one of the questions.
Speaker 2:I'll now come back to what I digressed we got, we got off on a tangent for sure oh, we're good, but I think this has been great.
Speaker 1:I love what you've taught me tonight. Uh, and you know, just so you know to me this podcast, I'm a listener, right, I'm not. I'm not here to talk. I want to hear people like you and I. That's why I love doing it. I actually love doing this and it's because I'm a dog nerd and I want to learn this stuff now, but it's, you know, we're still a ways from hunting season. It's getting towards the end of may, but you know it'll be around here before we know it. What do you suggest whether it's store bought or something you put together yourself for a first aid kit for for hunting, to take your dog hunting on, especially when you're going? You know, you know how a lot of us hunt out in the middle of nowhere most of the time and far from the city and a hospital. And yeah, what's your, what's your advice, doc?
Speaker 2:So. So I think that there there are some, some pre-packaged ones that are pretty good. You know, and, and. So most of the, the, the online sort of places like gundog supply, and, and, and that are out there that that sell those sorts of things. I think those are perfectly serviceable and maybe the easiest way to go.
Speaker 2:The things that I think people really need is you need a way to to stop hemorrhage in a, in a, in a limb or anywhere, but really you're going to be able to effectively do it in a limb, and so bandage material like Coban or vet wrap is a walk around thing that every guy should have. Now, what I want to tell everybody is, though you've got to be very, very careful with it, because it's got that elasticity to it, and I have treated people who have I've treated dogs that people put it on too tight and it const too tight, and if you constrict that blood supply for too long, you end up with an amputated leg. But if you've got to stop hemorrhage, it's really good to just put on a tight bandage. So just bandage material, but certainly on the top of that list is vet wrap. For me, things where you can clean wounds, and the things that I like to clean wounds. You know, first of all, tap water or just water in general is good, and then any kind of you know soap, for that matter, like chlorhexidine is the one that we use in the office that you can certainly get Hibiclens or you know things that you can get over the counter, but really, quite frankly, dial soap, that is just you know liquid soap that you can make into a solution and clean up a wound real good. I think if you can do those things where you stop hemorrhage and clean up a wound real good, you're way ahead of the game.
Speaker 2:I think everybody should have eyewash. You know like so and that's just stuff you get at the pharmacy, right. So you can just go to any pharmacy, whether that's local pharmacy, cvs, walgreens, and sometimes they come with an eye cup. Now, you may not be able to put that eye cup on a dog to get the, but you can irrigate the heck out of that eye because certain breeds have a more open eye, a more round eye, and things will get attracted to it and get in it. And then certain cover just gets things in their eye, get in it, and then certain cover just gets things in their eye Early in the season, excuse me, a lot of times you'll have just seeds and things you know, sometimes even pollens that you just want to wash off their face, and so I think those are very, very good, good things to have on hand. And beyond that, I think you're kind of talking now on things that you could get into trouble, right? So, cleaning up their eyes, cleaning up a wound, wrapping it up so somebody else can have a look at it. You know, I don't have a problem with somebody who has staplers to try to keep tissue together, especially if it's a big dog-eared wound where you've got a barbed wire tear and you want to clean it up and get it appositional. But don't just do that. I mean, I think that's when people get into trouble and I think I've told this story.
Speaker 2:My dad is a urologist and he's a retired urologist now, but he's a surgeon and he had some hunting buddies, and these are typical Texas guys. One was my high school principal. They were both retired football coaches and they hunted with my dad constantly. Well, he gave them some used up staplers and so they had a dog that had a sucking chest wound that they closed the skin on. But the fact that it had a sucking chest wound means that it's got a collapsed lung, and so you're like no, you got to take care of that a different way. So you got to know when you need to be seeking better service and better advice. So just be careful using those things. There are plenty of lay people who are good at taking care of injuries and wounds out there. So I'm not here to say that only a veterinarian can do it, but just know when you're in too deep and make sure you're thinking through things in a way that you're not using something that you really don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 2:You know like and I travel with a huge first aid kit, but I I would be mad at myself if I couldn't provide the kind of care that I felt like I could give out in the field um and and so, and I've had to use it. I've had a dog get snake bit, uh, south of vernon, um, and you know like, we we had I was talking with another vet we had to triage that dog um, we had a friend who was an electro. We stopped and treated her at the hospital. Unfortunately, she passed away. She's one of the few dogs that I've lost to a snake bite. But we were ready, at least we had the things that we needed to try to treat that, and I think that's where I go.
Speaker 2:And so don't think you need to have antivenom and all these surgical tools. Just think you need to have antivenom and all these surgical tools. Just have the simple stuff and be able to do the right thing for your pet, and the main thing is getting them to the person who can take care of them. But cleaning wounds, closing them up for a temporary period, flushing eyes, I mean I think that's certainly something.
Speaker 2:The other thing I think is an okay thing to have from your veterinarian that's a prescription item is some type of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory.
Speaker 2:You know so classically the original one of those was Remedil or Carprofen. Now it's generic. There's all the me-tos that you could imagine for inflammation and pain, and I think that's something that you know like when I travel it's in my medicine kit, you know like. So I've got some ibuprofen or some Aleve because if I get sore or stoved up and and I think that's that those things are safe to use under the guidance of a veterinarian. So I think that's another thing that we could add to that previous list of things that you should get from your veterinarian to travel with, just to say, hey look, doc, I want to have something. If my dog gets sore or he takes a tumble and I know he's hurting, I want to be able to give him something, and so I think those are always things that you should have. So Daracoxib or Daramax, remedil or Carprofen those are kind of the ones that are the old school ones that are out there.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's basically, it's an ibuprofen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's labeled for dogs.
Speaker 2:It's an NSAID, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, and the reason I think you should get them from your veterinarian is because I hate when people use over the counters because they don't dogs they're really not well tolerated in dogs and to get the dose right and then you end up with other problems. So the ones that we have that they've studied and we've prescribed to dog after dog after dog, that's just something that you should have and that's safe to give. It requires a prescription, because it's just that type of drug, you know, but it's the equivalent of Aleve and ibuprofen. So naproxen, I guess, is Aleve, and so just that's a good one to have in your kit as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know, I've got some friends that hog hunt and stuff and those guys keep staples and all that. You know, I, I would never do it because I don't feel confident, right? I don't, I'm not gonna stitch a dog up, I can't. So, I can't so.
Speaker 2:Or some of those injuries are bad though, I mean, and I have treated those, you know, and those those catch dogs, you know they wear a kevlar vest for a reason, yeah, and and so they can get torn up and the best thing they can do is clean them up and close them up. But but yeah, I mean I think there's there is a there's all levels of of proficiency at using that stuff and it's really something that that probably not everybody should do. But but you know, out in the field I mean, get them cleaned up, get them closed up. You know you're you're not hurting them, you're just trying to. You know you're kind of the mass unit kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosh, I hope I never that I've been knock on wood. I've been very fortunate in that respect with dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, I think, the thing to say to you, ken, it's not if it's when you're going to have it it may not be something.
Speaker 2:I mean simple things like lacerations of their ear. You know, ears bleed like crazy. You know like and so that's as I walk through all this, having some some silver nitrate or something. You know we're talking about the hemostasis, so you know. You see those. They look like little matches, silver knight straight or silver knight trait strip or tip. The other thing is like quick stop. They make that in a little canister. So you know, the hard part is those ear lacerations. Those are the worst. You have to. You have to go in and tie those off and that requires a veterinarian. But they just bleed like crazy. And so if you could stop them long enough where they're not bleeding all over your car, they're not going to bleed to death from the thing, but it's just going to be a huge mess and they just won't stop bleeding. So that's another good one that somebody should have in their kit as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need to get a list for you. You might be putting on our website or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can get that together.
Speaker 1:You know you make me think I felt like I was prepared when I traveled. Now I definitely need to go rethink that. The stuff that I take with me, you know, I feel the same way.
Speaker 2:I mean, I go through this checklist and I've got it around here somewhere. I've got one of those big Yeti go boxes and it's got everything in the world in it and then I'm like, oh, I need to put that in there just in case. And you know, eventually you're going to have a situation where you don't have everything you need. You know, that's just kind of the way it works. But being as prepared as you can and again, I think that's the proactive side of that is really what I espouse is just getting people to think through how they're traveling, where they're going. Have they talked to a veterinarian? Those are. That's the critical thing.
Speaker 1:Doc, I've got so many questions still. I don't want to keep you all night, but let's talk a little nutrition. I think I think you and I share the same food brand that the Smiths do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know.
Speaker 2:I'll say it. I mean I can say it. I'm not paid by them.
Speaker 1:Actually they sponsor me. Okay, good for you, and I'm so thankful for that because I believe in them.
Speaker 2:So I do too, and so I feel like there are four brands of food that are out there that are good down. I have a fondness for purina pro plan, especially for sporting dogs, and that comes from a couple that comes from experience. For one thing, I think it's excellent food. The other reason, I think I, I, I really think they do a great job supporting, uh, people like us you know they're out there.
Speaker 2:They're out there.
Speaker 2:They're out there visual, they've got a visual. They're, they're, they're doing the things. You know that that needs to happen and they're, quite frankly, doing the research. I mean, you know, things like Florida flora to me are really important things that that bird, dog owners can can utilize. You know they used to. They used to have a great energy bar that I, I, my age, and I don't think there was enough demand for it, but they're good, not that the others aren't.
Speaker 2:But I feel like, don't overthink food. I mean, I think that's the other thing. You know, like people, there are marketing companies that sell dog food. So they're really not dog food companies, they are marketing and they just have this. It doesn't matter what they're selling, right, they're there to sell something and they've sort of found a niche with dog food. And then there are dog food companies that market their food, and I think that's what those four are and specifically Purina. They're doing the research. Just don't overthink it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think there are some real issues in veterinary nutrition that that people don't understand and they're, they're walking into the pet food store. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming and and, and that's why I try to tell people to keep it simple and I'll send somebody. You know, like, before we put a dog on a prescription food, sometimes we'll try to use an over-the-counter food, and so I'll send them to those places and tell them I'll take my book that one of those companies gives me. I'll say, take a picture of this food and this is what you want. Well, they'll go in there and the salespeople are trying to sell them something, and so it's not the food that I recommended. They're like oh, this one's better. And it really is an interesting process. It's people. They market dog food to people, and so people think of it like they think of food and it's really all about the nutrient components to it and people get way hung up on what those ingredients are.
Speaker 2:I think there's some important things to avoid, but there are some real problems with, like, grain-free foods. And you know, like like, the only reason we have grain-free foods is because dog foods is because people buy food and people have trouble gluten sensitivities and grain sensitivities. Dogs generally don't, and and so they're, they're, they're marketing those things to people. Well, now come to find out. We've got some dogs that have developed dilated cardiomyopathies because they're on a gluten-free or grain-free food and they don't really know the epidemiology of it, but it fits that this approach to feeding that type of food has increased the risk of a dilated cardiomyopathy. And that's why I'm like just trust the people who are doing it, who are in the business of they're in their full 100%. So that's the way I think of nutrition.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I had a Ray Voight of Purina on here. He's the retriever guy, that's his forte. Before he went to work for purina and he got on here I had him on the podcast. It hasn't been released yet. He didn't sit and bash other dog foods, he just said you know what we do is we have a team of scientists and we test dog food, sometimes up to 12 years on one. You know different sets of dogs and so you're. You know, I believe, like you, that they they're. There's good companies out there. No, no doubt I've tried them. What I like about Purina is the fact that I see what it does to my dogs. I see how my dogs recover from working from, from hunting. But I love what they do for the community. I mean they're so supportive in in the sport and youth and all that stuff. You know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, right, and you should, if you ever get an opportunity to go to one of their facilities. I've been to one and they take these cohorts of dogs and they really have almost as best they can. They're not just living in a cage somewhere, they've got these pods that they live in and they follow them throughout their entire life. Yeah, so these dogs it's it's a 12 year study of things and you know, and it's it's Labradors a lot of times. And I was so impressed when I visited Purina's facility it was just I just started to kind of light bulb kind of went off in my head. I'm like and again, other companies are doing the same thing, but those ones that are just marketing companies selling dog food on social media, they're not doing that, they're not putting that kind of effort into it because it's expensive and it's a legacy kind of thing that they've just done forever.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and you know I shake my head when you're talking about the facility. I don't, I haven't been, but I've had guys on here that have been and told me about it that it's just something to see. Yeah, but last thing, because this time of year and this podcast probably probably four weeks or so for get it out, but it'll still be summer. Last tidbit advice to gun dog owners and dog owners in general, but overheating and heat exhaustion.
Speaker 2:So so you gotta be careful with them and there's a couple of times you have to be careful with them. Actually, springtime can be difficult because they're not acclimated to the heat. So they're just coming out of the winter and you know, and a lot of times if they're, if they're hunting dogs, they've been hunted and so they're they're a little bit depleted, you know, like they just they, they working hard and so you kind of need some recovery. And so you got to be careful in the spring, not exercising them too much, in my opinion, and and really kind of giving them a chance to rest. But the things you need to do for heat control or try to help them with heat.
Speaker 2:Water is certainly, you know, like dogs lack an ability to to cool like humans. So the only place they have sweat glands is on the bottom of their feet and they really don't cool off with those. So they dissipate heat through panting and that's how they can cool off. Well, in order for that to work, they need some airflow. They need probably to drink and have plenty of water available, because it's an evaporative process. So the shade cool water, that sort of thing is really critically important. But also understand that your dog has to be conditioned, Like that's when dogs get into trouble is that you know they've laid off for a while, they're going to go out and you know, around here it would be like dove hunting. You know, like, like when somebody is going to go take and you know, around here it would be like dove hunting. You know, like like somebody's going to go take their, their labrador dove hunting um, or their boykin spaniel um, and that dog's kind of laid off and it's not acclimated to the heat. And september 1st in north texas is hot, um and so.
Speaker 2:So those dogs aren't acclimated to the heat and, depending on their hair coat, you know, if you've got a black dog or brown dog, what I tell, what I have people do, is I tell them, you know, just make sure you've got some cold water. I take a pump sprayer and I put ice water in it and I'll just spray those dogs down. You know, because we're sitting under a stool and they just keep them cool that way. I think that helps them stay cool, but making sure they're conditioned to begin with and don't ask too much of them. When it's 100 degrees outside they can't cool off quick enough.
Speaker 2:So you've got to be very, very careful Full circle. Have a thermometer in your first aid kit too, and just a digital one that you can get at Walmart or wherever, and you just take a rectal temp. That's something that you should have, and for that reason. So if you're out in the field you think your dog's overheated, you take the rectal temp and it's, you know, 106, your dog is too hot so. So I think trying to keep those that environmental concerns in the front of mind is an important thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, like you said, here in Texas it's a real thing. And then you've got breeds like Labs, who are, I assume, cold-natured animals, dogs that were developed in the Arctic, right, yeah, so they get hot so easy, unlike a pointer who might be able to just take it a little longer Sure, an English pointer, but my labs like even training right now. I trained at Alamo Retriever Club south of San Antonio and you know we'll run our dogs one round on a drill, get them out, get them watered, get them in front of a cold air fan in the shade, and we'll wait an hour before we run them again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we never run them over 10 minutes. You know, on a drill, but yeah and just being smart about it.
Speaker 2:And so if your dog gets hot, what you're talking about is fan in the face is good, cooling them off. You know you can put some cold water or cool water on their pads, you know that kind of thing, just that that that will dissipate some heat. Like what I do when it's warm and I'm working my dogs, I'll wet them first, you know so I'll dunk them. You see field trial guys doing that. They'll splash their dog and get them ready to to go hit the field, and then when they're out in the field they're they're watering them. When they're water, you know like they do it every 10 minutes when it's hot, and that's that's an important thing. Just to remember too is that they're losing liquid just from the evaporative process. That way they're breathing.
Speaker 1:You know. Last thing I'll mention on this doctor we had a. I had a really good friend. Good friend, my very first episode was scott knee, neighbor, a guide, and he's hunted, ran dogs in south dakota for over 40 years. Probably knows more about hunting dogs than I'll ever and it's pinky than my whole body would know, and he uh was. I had him on the show talking about nutrition stuff and he takes excellent care of his dogs. I've been up there with him many times and they're treated like people but he puts alcohol on the pads of their feet, rubbing alcohol.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can cool them off quicker that way, and that's what we do. We have a heat stress dog. Come in If it's, if it's temperatures hot, we put alcohol on their pads and that'll cool them off again.
Speaker 1:So you agree with that. That method, that's a good method, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we do it when they're hot. When they're hot, we don't do it prophylactically, but if they get in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, if they're hot and they come in hot.
Speaker 2:we definitely would do that Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, you got to be careful.
Speaker 2:One of the things that people don't always understand, and you got to be careful as you can they.
Speaker 1:they lose an ability to thermoregulate, and so if you get them too cold, you're you're dealing with the other side of things, then I mean so if you over swing them, you just kind of have to do it quickly, but not in a way that that makes them too cold, because then you're working in the other way. So so your advice would be in either extreme cold or hot, gradual change.
Speaker 2:yeah, cold probably more, um, like, if they're cold, get them warm, um. But when they're hot, yeah, you got to be careful, like you don't just dunk them in ice water, um, because that, because that'll send them the other way and they could go into shock from that. So we get them up. We usually use cool towels that we water down towels and wrap them in it, we alcohol their feet, those kinds of things, and then we run fluids to them. So we're running not cold fluids but room temperature fluids. That will also cool them off a little bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, good to know. Doc. This has been a highly informative, practical stuff that all of us need to know. I love walking away from here being a smarter gundog owner, and that's the whole purpose of the podcast. I got to meet you and listen to you give a seminar type speech, you know, on dogs at the Smith's seminar, and it was excellent and I just had to get you on here. I know you're a busy man. I'm so glad you took the time out of your schedule to come on here maybe have you back sometime and just want to thank you so much. Now I'll give you a little plug here. Tell everybody where your practice is. I know you don't need more business, but at least they want to find you.
Speaker 2:Sure, if they want to find me, especially if they're going to be hunting out west of here, I'm at Colonial Park Veterinary Hospital in Wichita Falls, so you can find me that way. And if you do need anything, you know and I'm usually pretty decent about people reaching out to me with bird dog questions from seminars and other stuff you know my, we can put it in the show notes. I certainly don't mind having my email out in the public, but it's Joe at Colonial Park dot vet. So if anybody has any questions that they feel like they need answered that I can help with, I'm happy to try.
Speaker 1:Doc, thank you so much. I'm so glad that we've got veterinarians like you that also practice what we do. And you know I'm not knocking any other veterinarians, I'm just, you know, not all veterinarians are hunters and dog and gun dog hunters, so it's kind of nice to have one of our own wearing a white coat.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Ken this has been great and I enjoy just talking to people like you and getting information out there. And if I can be a resource at all to people to kind of shorten that learning curve, I'm glad to do it and I feel like that's why I'm here.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and you tell the Smith family hello, will do See them again, all right, thank you so much, dr. Thank.
Speaker 2:Thank you and you tell the Smith family hello, will do See them again.
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