Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Ben Skinner - Skinner's Dog Food: From Post Mill to Performance Dog Food
#35 What does a 300-year-old family business have to teach us about passion, quality, and preserving our gundog heritage? Ben Skinner, the seventh-generation leader of Skinner's Dog Food, takes us on a fascinating journey from his family's 1688 windmill to their current position as a beloved dog food manufacturer in the UK.
The remarkable story unfolds as Ben shares how his grandfather Stanley operated a traditional grain milling business that was facing bankruptcy when his father Roger, at just 15 years old, was pulled from school to join the struggling company. The pivotal moment came when a customer requested a ton of dog food, leading Roger to create a formula that dogs loved and offered better profit margins than their traditional products. From this humble beginning – literally driving around with bags of dog food in his car – Roger built a reputation for quality that still defines Skinner's today. Their unwavering commitment to formulation over price and direct relationships with customers has earned them devoted followers throughout the gundog community.
Beyond manufacturing dog food, Skinner's has become a cornerstone of the gundog world through their support of competitions like the International Gundog League Field Trial and their own Skinner's World Cup. This prestigious international working test attracts teams from across Europe, most recently held on the Windsor Crown Estate with permission from King Charles III. Ben shares delightful stories of royal connections, including his father accidentally placing his beer in Queen Elizabeth II's spot at lunch, highlighting the tight-knit nature of the UK gundog community.
What truly distinguishes this conversation is Ben's humility and genuine passion for both the family business and the working dog community. Despite regular buyout offers, Skinner's remains fiercely independent because, as Ben explains, "to us it's more than a business, it's a way of life." His vision for preserving gundog heritage while introducing younger generations to the sport resonates powerfully with our mission at Gundog Nation.
Ready to learn more about the fascinating intersection of history, quality nutrition, and gundog tradition? Subscribe to our podcast and join our community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership. Visit www.gundognation.net to join our email list for newsletters from trainers, vets, and breeders that will help you become a better gundog owner.
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Speaker 1:This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who love to watch a well-trained dog do what it was bred to do. We are also here to encourage youth to get involved in the sport of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundogs, whether it's hunting, sport or competition. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet, and join our email email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders. That will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters mo pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project with called pitney myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on curb records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harley, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation.
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Speaker 1:Hello, welcome back to Gundog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Midland Texas. I have a guest on today that I've been pursuing since back in November of last year and this young man I met at the IGL, which, for those of you who don't know what that is, it's the International Gundog League Field Trial. It's a championship in the United Kingdom that's very historic and it's the I guess it would be the Super Bowl of field trials in the United Kingdom as an American term. What makes this gentleman special and the reason I've got him on here is I'm kind of a history buff, ben, and my minor at the UK, which is the University of Kentucky, is in history, and when I found out about your company, your family's company, it just really intrigued me in the age of the company and what you do, and we'll get into all that. But, ben, please introduce yourself and who you work for and where you are coming from today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my name is Ben Skinner. I'm based in Suffolk in the UK, in East Anglia, and, yeah, I work in my family business, which is in dog food manufacturing, and we've been in this business, as you said in your introduction, a number of years, many years, although we've been making dog food for over 50 years now. But the history of the company goes back all the way to 1688, with the formation of a post mill in Suffolk, which is one of the first post mills ever built in East Anglia.
Speaker 1:And what is that? Explain what that is.
Speaker 2:A post mill. It's a windmill, essentially, so my ancestors were milling grain in East Anglia. East Anglia in England is synonymous for growing, for arable farming but also growing grain, so wheat and barley. It's very flat where we live in the UK and it's ideal for windmills, and that was basically a post mill which turned the whole windmill turned on a post and it used to grind the grain. So we were millers going back yeah, back to 1688. And our current dog food is made on exactly the same site where that post mill existed, although the mill, the windmill, is no longer there, sadly, so it was taken down in 1943 because it was in the flight path of actually, an American air base in East Anglia, which is about a mile away.
Speaker 3:Wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Were you allowed to construct another one on the location, or was it all on the flight path?
Speaker 2:Do you know what? My father we'll get onto this later when we talk about how the business started my father's got a lovely wish to create a museum there, because we're a company, family owned business still and there's a lot of history and what he'd like is a small museum. And I joke and say, well, maybe one day we'll rebuild the windmill because it would be a lovely touch to bring that history back to the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you all kind of repurposed the milling business for grain and barley and eventually it became a dog food production, if I, if I sort of talked you through that.
Speaker 2:So we were obviously rich and originally millers and milling grain. And then my grandfather stanley, who I actually I I never met, so I'm 26, my my father is is 76 and my grandfather Stanley was born in 1916. He passed away in 1990 and I was born in 99. But he moved the business on. He was still involved in the milling, so to speak, and what we would do was sell that to local farms for feed. So what that then morphed into was animal feed, so cattle food, pig food and poultry food for feed. So what that then morphed into was animal feed, so cattle food, pig food and poultry food, chicken feed, and we would sell that to local farmers.
Speaker 2:In East Anglia we had an old lorry and a few lorries on the road that used to do that and my father was born in 1949. And that business was still very prevalent when he was at school. So he left school at 15 years old with no exam results no, we call them in the UK here GCSEs and A-levels. So he didn't go to university and he was pulled out of school to work in my grandfather's family business and the story goes is that you know, he was working alongside my grandfather and they were, you know it was a small family business, but quickly, as sort of industrialization came along and modernization, we didn't have the economies of scale to compete with some of the larger mills, so we were constantly being outcompeted on price and I suppose the business had run its course. So my father probably from the ages of 15 to 30, was working in this business we had a sort of a solid fuel business on the side as well, dealing in a bit of coal and very small merchant business, and so he said well, he thought I need to diversify this and it came out of more by luck than judgment, although he took the opportunity and there was a customer of his I forget where it was and he'd probably be able to tell me. I believe it was either in Norfolk or it was in Devon and he said Roger, would you make me one ton of dog food? We didn't do that then, but he had a basic concept of nutrition and produced this dog food, and it wasn't what we now call extruded food, it was pelleted food, so it was in pressed formats, but he cubed it as a point of difference and he sold this gentleman a ton of dog food and the dogs really liked it and got on well with it. And he suddenly thought he did his sums as well. And he thought, well, goodness me, there's probably about 10 times more margin in this than what his father was doing.
Speaker 2:And his father, my grandfather Stanley, was very traditional. He didn't want to deviate at all from what he was doing and he said, roger, you're wasting your time for that. You'll never, never get a good living on dog food and, um, and of course you know, the dog liked it. There was, there was good margin there and I'd I'd also like to say my grandfather's business at this time was really suffering, you know, it was almost to the point of insolvency and bankruptcy. So my father didn't have a choice. It was either reinvent the wheel or go bust. So he took this opportunity, um, and eventually started supplying these dogs and following that we then got involved, being rural where we are in the uk, with a, with some gundog people, and there's some, you know, there's some some very prolific names, people who have competed at the IGL.
Speaker 2:We were actually at a funeral a few weeks ago of a gentleman called Frank Clitheroe and he used to train and run dogs for the late, the late Queen Elizabeth II, and along that was Bill Meldrum and and another.
Speaker 2:You know a few other high, high profile gundog names. And Frank was one of our first ever customers and, um, his name in, or he was a very, very humble man, a very modest man but very well respected and very liked, and he, he spoke about food that the dad supplied him and eventually the phone started ringing and it didn't stop ringing and then it went from there and built and built and the brand was built or has been built over 50 plus years and that's with very traditional marketing. You know, these were the days. It's difficult for me to to comprehend it because I've only been in the business three and a half years. These are in the days before social media influences. You know, dad started the business with an estate car I think it was a Morris 1000 Favre or something like that, or Ford estate car with 50 bags of food in the back, 30 bags of food in the back, driving around the country selling food and giving samples away.
Speaker 1:Wow, and I assume so you have always been in the feed business, just not necessarily dog food, Correct? Yeah, okay, and Ben, how have you guys evolved to today as far as ingredients and nutrients or whatever that you put in the food? How has that evolved?
Speaker 2:something called extruded food, which is now and still the most popular format of feeding dogs. In dry dog food and that's a process we use an american machine actually called a wenger extruder they're based in kansas, I believe and so that the product has developed over time. Okay, and we use a basis of. We've got 18 products in our range. We've got life stage products, from puppy all the way up until senior, and we have products that have wheat, maize barley in it, and then we have rendered meals, so protein meals, so you've got chicken, salmon, duck, salmon, duck, lamb, turkey, and then we have a sensitive range that goes with that. So they have chicken and rice, duck and rice, salmon and rice, and that gives the dog a great balanced diet. You've also got a mineral and vitamin pre-mix in there and blend as well.
Speaker 2:So the formula, probably from the early 2000s, has always stood the test of time and it hasn't changed and and that's quite important for us and you've always got to innovate and I'll get on to some of the acquisitions we've made recently. But there's there's one thing when dad started making the food is he made it to a formula, not to a price. So quality was absolutely paramount. So they are sort of human grade ingredients, but obviously rendered meal, not from the human food chain. So we're not putting organic chicken breasts in our dog food because it would be a thousand pounds a bag. Everything that doesn't go into the human food chain, but that's still perfectly good for dogs. We take that as a powdered or rendered form thing that doesn't go into the human food chain but it's still perfectly good for dogs. We take that as a as a powdered or rendered form and put that through an extrusion process with minerals and vitamins, um, some oils and fats, um and and and a few grains as well.
Speaker 1:Not interesting okay, how has your in the last 50 years? How has the distribution changed? I'm sure you started locally. What's your expansion parameters now?
Speaker 2:changes as well. So the business, like I said it, was originally through these individuals and then eventually more people are asking. So our business is unique in the sense that we have a lot of direct accounts. So their businesses or individuals to some degree, that we deal with directly from our head office and they deal direct with the manufacturer. I'd say that's unique. Now I'd say any business entering the market, you're either dealing the end user is dealing through a retailer, or we go through wholesale. Now we still do a lot of that. That's a massive part of our business.
Speaker 2:But the first way in which the business was built we had to go to the end user. We had to go to these people Because if you go to a wholesaler they say well, I've never heard of your brand before, I haven't got any sales or customers for it, I'm not going to take it off you. So I said, fine, I'll go straight to the straight to the people that want to want to buy it. And then eventually you know it got it. It got its traction and then they started taking an interest with it. So we are listed and distributed in over 2,500 stockists in the UK and that ranges all the way from independents, agri-merchants, pet specialist retailers, like Pets at Home, if you've heard of them, jollies, some, some by the uk standards. The uk, the us market's very different. Um, so we're just.
Speaker 2:We're well distributed throughout all of the uk, particularly down in cornwall, the north of scotland you know bit in ireland isle of man, isle of white, and I'll get on to some of our further afield customers that we supply as well. But they are the backbone of the business and I always think in commerce, and particularly what I'm now doing in the business which is looking at sales you don't want one single customer to have all of your business. You want to be what I described as well hedged and I think that's that's very, very important for us and and we're very, very fortunate in the fact that a lot, of, a lot of people have built quite a loyal following on our food and our brand and that's why we're reluctant to change, or we won't change, the formula or the product, because if it works, why change it? People are happy. Yes, you've got to innovate, but it's really important that we're really consistent with our supply. But people, I think like dealing with a, with a family business, and I think that's something that that we're keen to to push.
Speaker 2:And you know I, when I go to shows and like I met you at the at the igl last year, there's people better qualified than me to talk about dog nutrition. I'm not a vet, I I haven't done a nutrition course, but really, where I see my role as the seventh generation in the business is to talk about the family values, and the values that my father built the business upon are transferred, hopefully to me, and they stand the test of time for the next generation, and then hopefully, maybe one day, the generation after me. Hopefully to me, and they stand the test of time for the next generation.
Speaker 1:And then, hopefully, maybe one day, the generation after me. Very nice, so does any of your food get shipped outside of the United Kingdom?
Speaker 2:It does. Yeah, yeah, before Brexit, we used to sell a lot more food in europe, um, and then since that that was 2015, 2016 we were then encumbered with higher veterinary health certificate costs. Minimum order quantities went up, so we've had to change our model there recently, and it's just quite a timely call that we're having now, because we every year we hold an event can and you have to come along to it. It's called the skinners world cup. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
Speaker 1:No, that sounds like I need to go yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It's an international working test, so you might be familiar. I saw you had um, had declan on and declan does a lot of work for us with the ireland gundog team, um, but you have field trials, which is like the igl, the international gundog team. But you have field trials, which is like the IGL, the International Gundog League, using live game or birds and working tests use dummies, although I think you have a different name in the US, is that right?
Speaker 1:You're correct, we call them, but we do call them both. I actually say dummies and bumpers interchangeably.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the World Cup is using bumpers or dummies.
Speaker 1:Now let me interject. I hate to interrupt you because I'm dying to listen to all this. Is that because of politics?
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 1:That you're using dummies instead of live birds.
Speaker 2:I don't think it. No, because it's the time of year that it happens. So we've got a season in the UK. As you know, grouse starts on the 12th of August, and then the pheasant and the partridges come in, and then the game season goes to the end of January, and this event is a team event. So, rather than an individual event like the IGL, this is a team event, so any nation can submit a team. They go through a selection um and they come compete with four dogs and it's just retrievers only, um, okay, yeah and so there's an irish team, a scottish team or yeah, irish team, scottish team, welsh team, english team.
Speaker 2:So they are four what are called home countries, okay, and the event started 50 years ago with the shooting times and then pedigree, gundog weekend, and it was a much bigger event. It was held all around the country. Now the shooting times is a publication in the uk that, goodness me, dates back to the 1800s. It's been around a long time, and when my father was starting to get into dog food in the 70s, you know he used to go to these events. It was very much the working dog fraternity that were there and for some reason or another they gave up their support to this event, and so did Pedigree, and there was an opportunity for someone to take it on, so we ended up taking it on 24 years ago. We ended up taking it on 24 years ago. So this is, like I said, is, a working test. We hold it every year. Normally the first or no second weekend in May is when we normally hold it, and we have had a record of 16 countries come compete over two days with 10 tests each day, and obviously there's there was a commercial angle to this as well. We thought, well, you know, why not replicate what we've done in in the uk and do it in europe, because there's a big gundog following in europe. So this year, just got on, we had 13 teams, we had Sweden, we had Norway. The Norwegians drove, you know, by European standards, quite a long way. They drove 1,200 kilometers, 30 hours of traveling, just to compete at the Skinners World Cup for two days, and it's a fantastic event and it's an event that's.
Speaker 2:It has historically been a private event. It's always been sort of a private event since Skinners have taken it on with the odd spectator. I'd like to open it up if I could in time, but it's a very special event and it's really all about the dogs and handlers. And when I joined the business in September 21, obviously COVID was happening, so we had to stop it after 2019. And we had loads of requests when to revive it, when's it going to come back? And I said, right, okay, yeah, we'll bring it back and I'll take it on and I'll organize it. It was only Ken, when I started really doing the organization behind it that I realized the scale and the importance of the event. So, like the IGL is the individual event to win in the UK, the Skinners World Cup is the working test event to win in the UK and some would say in Europe, although you have what's called the IWT, the International Working Test in Europe, and that brings 40 teams. So that's a much larger event, but each country can submit, submit, I think, I believe, three teams, so it's slightly different. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a. Well, I realized sort of the magnitude what we're organizing. I thought, goodness me, yeah, I didn't, didn't realize this, but I'm pleased we have revived it, and you know that then leads on to conversations of selling food in Europe, which is certainly something that we're looking at. And if you look further abroad again, dad said, yeah, he's still very driven and very passionate. And he said, ben, never turn down an order.
Speaker 2:And I remember being in Nuremberg in Germany at a pet trade show so not just dogs but small animal at what we think. And we had a lady from south korea come onto our stand and she said, ah, ben, mr skinner, I've been been wanting to speak to you, I've done my research and this and that. And she said I'd like to get some food to south korea. And me I've been in the business seven months I said, said, yeah, fine, we can do it, no problem at all. So I came back to the office and I said to the lady in customer services I said, right, I've got this order. I've got 20 pallets, 40 foot container to South Korea. And she looked at me. She said, ben, what have you done? It ended up taking, I think, seven months to get food out there. But they have ordered and they did order again. You know they're not a big customer.
Speaker 2:So it's gone to south korea. It's gone to japan. I met a met a japanese customer on the stand at the game fair last year, which is a big country fair, national fair that we hold in the uk once a year, and this gentleman came up to find me. He feeds our, our chicken grain free. He's from toky and he was one of the first people 30 years ago to bring English setters into Japan, you know. So you've got people like that.
Speaker 2:It's gone to Cyprus, bahrain and also one of our longest standing customers is in Kenya. So for ages we were sending a container every month to Mombasa which was then going to Nairobi and it was being distributed out there. And in Kenya you've got a very large expat community of UK people. But you've also got a need for police dogs, hunting dogs, dogs and spaniels have been trained to hunt traffickers of pangolin scales, which are somewhat of a delicacy, a medicinal delicacy in asia drugs, ivory as well. So when you think about spaniels and retrievers and these working dogs that we enjoy in our homes as as companions, you know it sort of reinforced me that that yes, they are that, but if they are trained and put to the test properly they've got a whole multitude of uses. And I suppose we touch those dogs with our food and that's really important that they have the best food.
Speaker 1:Purina ProPlan. Here at Gun Dog Nation, we use Purina ProPlan for our dogs. We actually use the Sport Performance Edition, which is 30% protein and 20% fat the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s for their joints. It also contains amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics. It's guaranteed to have live probiotics in each serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use use it and we are so proud to be sponsored by Purina dog food. Do you all supply dog foods like the British military?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, we've supplied the Ministry of Defence, although they tend to go for larger contracts, but we have done the Ministry of Defence in Hereford. We do police dogs in the UK, a few select people as well. So yeah, Nice.
Speaker 1:So when is the Skinner World Cup held? What time of year?
Speaker 2:It's held in May, so this year it was on the 24th and 25th of May. Next year the date is to be confirmed, but you're more than welcome to come, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Next year is tentative, next year is the date is to be confirmed, but you're more than welcome to come, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Next year is tentative. Next year is tentative. It will be going ahead, but we need to fix the dates because we've got the IWT in Europe so the European teams would have to come over. It's quite a big expense, so we want to make sure it doesn't clash with them.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. I did not know that Ben and I follow you and stuff, but that is great. I I love that you do that. You know, when I got back home, you know I flew. I flew back on thanksgiving and uh, I'd end up meeting a lot of people from the event, from england and ireland and scotland, and uh started making contacts and people were talking to me. Everyone was so nice and then I was telling some people I'd met about you and you deserve to hear this. But so many people spoke so highly of you and that was my first impression of you as well. I thought you were just this very humble, intelligent young man and you really impressed me. But you have a huge fan following. A lot of people really in the gundog world really have a lot of respect for you and that says a lot for a young man.
Speaker 2:That's very kind, ken. Thank you, I enjoy that company. You know it was quite daunting for me, ken, you know, coming into the family business.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask you, Ben, how old were you when you started doing this?
Speaker 2:I was 22 years old, and how old?
Speaker 3:were you when you started doing this.
Speaker 2:I was 22 years old. Oh gosh, but my father was 15, so I can't complain, but he was very much. You know, I didn't train in business Again. I went to boarding school. I've got a twin sister as well who's obviously the same age and she's studying medicine to be a doctor and we both went to boarding school. And I didn't do what we call in the UK which is called gap year. So a lot of my friends went and traveled, went to either America or South America or Australia. I went straight into further education, so university. So I went to Oxford Brookes University and I did a real estate management course there.
Speaker 2:So I was interested in property, getting what's called a chartered surveyorship, so an accredited qualification to go into property, and I always knew the business could be a possibility one day. But dad said, you know I'm not going to force you into it like my father did. He said, ben, I want you to go do something else first. And yeah, I wouldn't have expected to go into 15. Um, but you know my father was in his early 70s. He's still very passionate and very driven. But what I? I identified, I suppose, an opportunity in the business that and I thought you know it needs a family member in it every day.
Speaker 2:Because my approach to business and commerce is you know, I don't it's nothing I've learned out of a textbook, it's all the learnings and morals and passings down that I've had from my dad and from my father. So yeah, like I said earlier, it's for me to continue that. I'd say that approach and it's about the personal approach and I go back to the Gundle world. It's very kind. You should say that again. You know they've been really kind to me because you know my dad, no one knew him when he started and he's had to build a reputation of the brand and the business and the food.
Speaker 2:And for me to go to these events and people know what skinners is and but no one knew, knew who I was. So I wanted to to get to know these people better. But but also we sponsor, we put a lot of money into these, into these events, not just the big ones, ken, but the small ones all over. And my take on it was I want it to be more than just a purely a transactional relationship, because a lot of people can just write a check and put their name and logo and money behind it. But for me it was really important to understand what these people do and their passion, and it just so helps that I enjoy my shooting, my hunting, and I enjoy my dogs and I enjoy the business, and they the whole fraternity have been very welcoming to me. So, yeah, I think, I think I send my thanks back to them for that.
Speaker 1:Well good, you know it's. You know and it shows me when you were there. It shows you enjoy it. You're very social with the crowd, you don't look forced to be there. I can tell you're having a good time. But you know, even here in the US, ben and I know it's a little smaller community there, but you know, this dog world and this field test world is kind of cultish, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We all yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not a derogatory term in that sense. No, that's not a derogatory term in that sense. No, Now, I just figured you'd pressure your sister to veterinary school instead of you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the human medicine is something that she's more interested in. Actually, it takes longer to qualify as a vet in the UK than it does for human medicine. It's seven years, yeah, whereas for human medicine it's five years. Whereas for human medicine, it's five years.
Speaker 1:That shows the government's priority right. Yes, for their dogs. That's not a bad thing, Ben, since you're so involved in the gundog sport, and a part of my podcast is to preserve gundog heritage right and to bring all people like you and I together across the water internationally to be a community of gundog lovers. And that's what the podcast is. The only reason I do this. I enjoy it. I love it. If I did it for money, I'd really be starving to death. But do you see the sport growing? At your level? You have to see this even from a bigger, a higher point than I do, because you're so much more involved in in in the sport itself. Do you feel like it's growing?
Speaker 2:yes, I, I think so. I. I think it's really important to have a a younger generation come coming into the sports and I think the more that we can do to do that is imperative and it's vital. It's how do we use our positioning in the Gundog world? At the end of the day, we're dog food manufacturers. We don't organise these events. We support them. We organise a few, but I think for us it's about being clever, how we entice people to the sport and, like you said, it's almost got that cult following. But how can we open it up? The problem is is you've got the government in the UK now that are very anti-shooting. You know that's, that's no secret. And when you open yourself up, you open yourself up to criticism as well, um, which you know the two go hand in hand. So I think it's.
Speaker 2:I'd like to say this sports, the sport is growing. It will continue to be there. I obviously don't know what it was like 40 years ago. You know, I think there was when you used to go to the IGL. You'd have a lot of spectators. Now you have people joining their live feed. So that was, you know, spectators was always quite a good litmus test of the support that would be there behind the sports. So yeah, it's. I'd like to say it's grown, but what can you know? It's I'd like to say it's growing, but what can you know? What can I do as a young person in the industry to get people behind working dogs.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe you and I could figure out a way to partner up somehow to get the youth involved. You know, we could use this podcast as a tool. And you're out there amongst the masses, you know, in the competitions. You know, I know some we'd have to talk about offline, but maybe we could come up with something. I want to do more. You know, I have four kids, and one's getting ready to go to law school, one's at the University of Kentucky and my two daughters are out of school. None of them compete in dog sports. Yeah, for sure you know they like dogs, but it's just not their passion. Yes, in dog sports. And uh, for sure you know they like dogs, but it's just not their passion. Yeah, and I, like your father, I didn't force them to be dog people.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I think you know it's, it's got to come from them. Um, you know, you've got to be passionate about it. I think anything you do, you've got to be, you've got to be passionate about it. Um, but yeah, I a lot of people say to me ben, what are you going to compete and run dogs? I think in time maybe I enjoy it, but my work-life balance at the moment I think if I had a dog I'd want to at least try and do it justice and spend time dedicating to it. But I enjoy watching some of the best handlers, and their dog work is exceptional.
Speaker 1:Well, it seems like you've only been in In your seat for four years. It seems like you've really moved the company forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose. So we're always looking at things that we can do to grow the company. We're not a massive, massive business by the grand scheme of things. We employ about 110 people and we bought a business coming up five years ago that is a manufacturer of wet dog food. So we're the only manufacturer in the UK that produces wet dog food in what's called a Tetra Pak carton and that's probably, I suppose, a novel format of wet dog food.
Speaker 2:You see a lot in tins, cans and trays and pouches, but not in Tetra Pak and we're seeing that side of the business growth. So you know, again, it's nice if you can put what you enjoy with business and you know, at the end of the day, we're not a charity as well. We're here to, we're here to to grow the business and and grow sales, but be sensitive and have fun doing it, and I think I think that's that's really important and very key, because the uk pet food market or dog food market or manufacturing market, whatever you want to call it has been swamped with investment from private equity, from larger multinationals you've got mars and nestle in there as well and to compete against them as an independent family business at times can be tricky, it can be difficult. So I'm left thinking well, you know, our pockets aren't quite as deep as these people. How can we get a competitive edge over them? And for us it's in our. I'm not saying these people don't do it, but for us it's in our personal approach, our customer care.
Speaker 2:And then, like I said, if people want to deal direct with a name and a manufacturer or even pick up the phone to me, you know it could be anyone. It could be anyone living anywhere in the UK that's buying one bag a month. If they've got an issue, I still want to speak to them. You know, if they've got an opportunity, I still want to speak to them. Them, whereas a lot of these more corporate businesses, they've got their hierarchy and they'll. You know, I've heard, I've heard examples of people phoning these businesses and eventually getting through to a director or senior management management and they'll turn around and say you're lucky to be speaking to me. And I think if I knew that that was happening in our business or in my business, I'd be very disappointed.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you know, I don't know if you recall this, Ben, but we had one conversation when we met and you told me a little bit about your business and I've realized it was family and I realized it was a huge history and I mentioned to you. I'd said I bet you get offers all the time from private equity money and stuff. And you all have turned that down.
Speaker 2:We have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of interest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there is interest.
Speaker 2:There's interest the whole time. But you know you can sell yourself and sell yourself once. But to us it's more than a business, it's like a way of life.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. You know it's so sad. So many companies, and it's here in the US too. As a matter of fact, I bought a dog food here for a long time called Victor, made in Texas, yeah, and now they're sold out to a conglomerate. And you know even beer and alcohol. In the US there's like one company that owns about all the beer companies and all the liquor companies and all the liquor companies. It's just sad that I'm so glad to see family-owned business still running. You know we call that the American dream.
Speaker 3:But you're not in America.
Speaker 1:You know, that's just. I love it. I'm so, so glad that you're all still.
Speaker 2:You know I've heard of Victor. I saw I went to a trade show in Orlando, florida, Okay, and it had you had Blue Buffalo General Mills and Victor was there as well. And that was when I was first in the business and it got me thinking about oh, could I put Skinners into America Very different market and we can't actually export it there. It's got ruminants and meat derivatives in it so we'd have to have it made under license out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's a dog eat dog. No pun intended. Yes, business out here. You know, uh, the dog food industry here because they're. So you go in. Now it's kind of like craft beer, you know, used to. You go in the grocery store here in the states and you'd see four or five different beer companies or four or five dog food companies. Now, when you go into these petSmart's and these mega stores there's I mean there's aisle after aisle of just different brands and different formulas and the choices are just endless. I can't imagine trying to get in that business here. Is it? That? Is the UK still? Probably? Do y'all still have? Is it like that there? Do you have these unlimited choices of dog foods there? Is it more?
Speaker 2:you. You have a lot, yeah, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of european brands that in in the uk but there's a lot of just independent say independent, just a lot of dog food brands in the. There's probably 70, 80, not all working dog, but there's loads, there's loads of small ones, treatments that crop up.
Speaker 2:Again, it's quite easy. If I didn't have a manufacturing business, I could come up with an idea of what I think the formula should be and I could just go to a contract manufacturer and say there's my name, there's my brand, I've got my packaging. Go make it. I think a lot of people they think it's quite easy, but I think it's become a very saturated market and to stand out is very difficult. It takes a lot of money.
Speaker 2:Again, we were talking about routes to market. What we've seen in the UK recently is people going to the direct consumer route, so on their own website. It's a very costly way of acquiring customers. It's a bit alien to us really, but there's certainly disruptors in the market and I think we need to be vigilant to that. If we, if we want to survive and but for us it's being laser focused we know what we get at. Um, yeah, we, we know who our customers are and it's important to bring new customers underneath. Like you said, the Gen Z are up underneath us from these trialing people that are probably in their 40s and 50s. Now how can we get the 20 and 30-year-olds interacted and interested in our brand?
Speaker 1:Well, the next thing I'd like you to talk about briefly, just especially for listeners in the US, who probably don't realize this and your father would probably be a much better knowledge base for this, but I know you have some knowledge of it, even though you're 26 tell the folks here the queen's involvement when she was living in the gundog world, because it's very interesting and I know a lot about it from reading, but that's it yeah.
Speaker 2:so, like said my father, would probably be a better knowledge base, and I don't want to misquote anything I've heard. It's just you know the odd things that I picked up. So the queen was a massive lover of her gundogs Well, dogs in general, she had her corgis, but she was an enormous, enormous lover of her gundogs. She'd come to almost, I think, every IGL Retriever Championship. I've never met her. My parents have. My mother sat opposite the table at Windsor in the hunting lodge there for half an hour talking to her, just as we are now, ken, about horses and dogs. Um, my father's got a funny story. They he had a beer and a glass and they were having lunch for about 25 people and the late queen, elizabeth ii, was there and, uh, being eager to sit down.
Speaker 2:there was no name places for him. He accidentally put his beer in the queen's spot and went off and beat someone and the queen came to the table and said, oh goodness me, someone's put a beer in my place and dad had to quickly shut it off and you know, said sorry, mum, um, so uh, but yeah, she she was, had a great sense of humor. She was a big lover of gundogs. She had obviously the Sandringham line of dogs I think Sandringham, sydney was one of her dogs, an incredible dog.
Speaker 2:And again at the World Cup two weekends ago, it's the first time it was held on a Crown estate, so it was held at Windsor and that was in the old deer park there and it's never been held the event under Skinners on a crown estate and I got permission, or we got permission, from His Majesty the King to run it there and the head keeper there, peter Clayton, who's worked for the Royal Family since he was 15 years old, so he's worked for them for coming for 45 years now. He's worked for them for 45 years and he says he treats you know they, they, they're very good to him and, um, he spent a lot of time with with the late queen and the gundogs and, and you know, to have this event in the park. There. The park's over a thousand years old, we've got oak trees that are over a thousand years old and I always think you know we're running this Gundog event and we were very privileged to have it to ourselves as well, and you've got Windsor Castle in the background, which is the oldest and largest inhabited castle in the world, and you just think if those trees could talk the kings and queens and conflicts they've seen.
Speaker 2:Um, it's a huge amount of history and I hope you know king charles, his majesty, you know, I think he he's got a passion for he's certainly got a passion for the outdoors and for wildlife. Um, I invited him to. The skin is well cut, but he was in canada at the time, I believe. Um, otherwise, that would have been the icing on the cake to have him there. But, yeah, the Royals and the Royal family have been long admirers of the gundog world and, yeah, long may it continue.
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Speaker 1:I can't believe I missed that. That is killing me now. I didn't know where you held it, yeah.
Speaker 2:It will be in a different place next year, oh shoot move around?
Speaker 1:does the royal family still have uh gun dogs or a kennel?
Speaker 2:that that I don't know. I know there. I know there are kennels at windsor, um, and there are certainly kennels at sandringham, but in terms of in terms of running their own dogs. I know David Lissett up in Scotland who's a very well respected gentleman who I've met a few times at Drum, manoray Castle, at the Duke of Buccleuch. He actually won the IGL championship with His Majesty's dog up there. So so they still have dogs. Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:Any upcoming news that you need to let the world know that Skinners is planning on in the next.
Speaker 2:Oh goodness me, Any upcoming news. That's a really good question. Nothing major. I mean, we're always looking at new products that we're bringing out, as I said earlier, on the back of the World Cup. The European market is something that I'd really like to explore further. I think it offers such a diverse community the gun dog worlds but everyone has one thing in common they love their dogs and they love dog work. And I think, if it was one wish for me and I'm thinking my father's had a had a fantastic history building this business what does the next 20, 30, 40 years for me hold in the business? How can I, how can I take all the learnings from him and how can we take it forward as well? Um, so, focusing on the working dog and building that out in europe is is certainly something that that I'd like to develop over the next well, immediately, but over the next 5, 10, 20 years ben, do you feel like, and I'm sure you know this answer, but as far as your largest customer base, is it working dogs and gun dogs?
Speaker 2:probably true, people that run and work and compete. Their dogs are probably quite, quite small, but what you've got is a is an agricultural farming community. They might have collies, they might have terriers, they might have labies, they might have terriers, they might have Labradors, they might have Spaniels. They'll live on farms, they'll live in rural areas. They might not even work their dogs, but they might take it out and go beating on the weekend or do something. That is a large proportion of our, of our markets, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I guess you know, even though I've been over there, man, only one time for the IGL, and I'm coming again this year, by the way. But I assume, just based on numbers of people in your country compared to here, the community, the gundog community, is probably fairly small in comparison with us. Is that fair to say, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is a small community. I obviously have only seen people at championships and the odd small event. But if I give you a bit of context on the support we give, obviously we do. The IDL, the Kennel Club in the UK, is a very, very old body. It's now the Royal Kennel Club. So they're endorsed by the King. They run championships. So they run the Cocker Spaniel Championship, springer Spaniel Championship, the HPR Championship, hunt Point Retrieve Championship, so shooting over pointers, and we also support them.
Speaker 2:But we also support what you've got in the UK and it would be like States in America, but we have counties over here. Each county has a field trial club or a gundog club or a visler club or a Labrador club or a golden retriever club. They hold events and shows and we sponsor and support a lot of the grassroots events and that's where a lot of our support comes from. So if we think, how can we touch all the corners of the UK? It could be supporting with what we call a goodie bag. So it might have a sample of food in it, it might have a brochure.
Speaker 2:We'll send a banner. We send certificates for these events as well. So novice and open working tests and and trials, um, so we, yeah, we support all, all different events at all stages, um, and that broadens out the whole gundog community. So we probably see a very small percentage of it. It probably goes a lot deeper, but the gundog people know the gundog people and maybe as as a as a result of, you know, wanting to get more people, and maybe we need to open it up more.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you know, I was getting ready to ask you that. So I know you're obviously huge in the retriever world. But you know, over there you guys and I'm you know I'm a fan of them too, the springers, the spaniels. So you. You know I'm a fan of them too, the Springers, the Spaniels. So you and the Pointers, you do a lot of that stuff. Other breeds I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, all working dog breeds, Any dog that's working, you know. And the dogs that are used in the military and in Kenya are Belgian Malinois. They're very athletic dogs, small dogs, and then they use Spaniels over there as well.
Speaker 1:German Shepherd Well you know, I had Malinois for a long time and I actually still do some protection dog training. I have a Doberman now, just a little calmer, but that's interesting. I didn't know that you also appeal to that market. But that makes perfect sense because they're all working just a different job, correct? Do you have? I? I mean, do you guys employ scientists for your formula? And maybe that's none of my business, maybe?
Speaker 2:that's too deep into your business. But no, not at all. It's a very fair question. So we have we've worked really hard, I say for the last 10 years, in improving the quality and processes in our in. So the factory is what I call very clean and almost state-of-the-art. It requires a lot of investment but we have a quality assurance team that work around the clock. So any we call them bulk lorries coming in with grains and cereals and proteins and all that kind of thing, we will test them. They will get tested in a laboratory in our factory and we have a certain specification that we work within. So if it's outside of that specification we will just refuse the load until it sits within spec. Now that's quite rare. We've got very trusted suppliers and that's very important. And then we have a new, two new in-house nutritionists and they almost work in conjunction with the customer service team and the quality assurance team.
Speaker 2:So if you're a customer and I had a, a dog, or you had a dog and you wanted a question answered on the correct food to put your dog on in the skinnest range, they would be best placed to answer that. So you know how often are you working your dog. Is it once a week. You're you're going out in the field. Are you just taking it for a walk? How much exercise is it? Yeah, do you know what duck and rice might be worth it? Perfect for you. Or maintenance might be perfect for you. And if you go into the working season, you want doing that little more work outside and it's a bit colder. Go on to a working 23 or working 26 diet with high protein and high fat.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, that's a probably a more detailed part of the business, but it's certainly a service we offer you know, to me, just because a lot of your customers being working dogs, gun dogs to me the probably best feedback you got is just your customers, because you're working dogs and I have working dogs and you see the results. You see their coat, their recovery time. So I'm sure you're right there on the ground seeing.
Speaker 2:It's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It's really nice hearing good news, but I also want to hear the bad news. Someone's been feeling a product for years. They say, oh ben, this isn't right, or you know, the dog stools aren't good, or they've lost condition on it. Now there could be other reasons that explain that right. But if I hear it more than once, twice, three, five times, then I know that maybe we've got a problem back there or something needs tweaking, or we need to relook at SPI or we need to do something. And that's part of the reason why I get out to these events and go speak to these people, because it's very easy. I've only been there three and a half years, but if I sit in a management position in the business and just stay behind my desk, I wouldn't know half the things that go on outside of those four walls of that factory. So it's really important.
Speaker 1:Are you able to source a lot of your food material locally or in the UK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we source the majority of it in the UK. Obviously the rice comes from further afield, from Asia, mine market and that area, but uh, yeah, a lot of the the wheat and and barley and mates, that all comes from, and poultry and proteins I think salmon comes from, we have got it from scotland, we've got it from spain before duck, uh, comes from the uk, has come from france, but yeah, a lot of it comes from comes from the UK. It has come from France, but yeah, a lot of it comes from the.
Speaker 1:UK, which is great. Okay, when's the next event that Skinner's going to be attending? Goodness, me.
Speaker 2:We did one last week. The next one is at the Lincolnshire show in the middle of June 18th of June, I believe and we have three show trailers, ken, so you might have seen our show trailer at the IGL. Yes, sir, yeah, june, I believe, and we just take. We have free show trailers, ken, so you might have seen our show trailer at the igl. Yes, sir, yeah, we take that. We've got three that go around the uk. So we've got seven what we call aero sales managers in the uk that cover the whole of the united kingdom. So they deal with all of our direct customers. So, instead of them all coming to me which I, which I wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't have any time to do anything else they deal with all these customer inquiries, but they're also really helpful going and attending these shows.
Speaker 2:And again, you know, when I joined the business, a lot of these sales managers, ken, they've been with us for years. They've known me some of them since I was four years old when my sister and I used to hold the bags open at the game fair and at these shows. So when I went into more focusing on sales, I said tell me everything. You know, I'm a sponge to you. You've got the experience and you've dealt with these customers. I'm a fresh-faced youngster going into some of these customers. They'll try and have it on with you sometimes, or or what have you? You know, relatively naive and can you go agree to something that you shouldn't do. So they, they were fantastic when I first joined the business and I think between the seven of them they had 80 to 100 years of experience just working for our company alone.
Speaker 3:Oh wow yeah, so that's very beneficial for you yeah, really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah they're. They're the backbone of the business.
Speaker 1:Really well, every employee is with us um gosh, we covered a lot of material and, oh yeah, now I know what I was going to ask you. The pictures behind you. Are you in your office right now?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, I yeah, I'm at home. Actually I'm not in my office, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's hear about that. I'm curious yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, they're just, they're old old racing prints that I've got. As well as loving the outdoors, I like my cars. So, um, yeah, they're wolf bernardo and his bentley blue train that he raced from the south of france back to his gentleman's club in london. And there's a I like the history behind things. Um, so vintage classics and actually you can't see but the sun that's shining on that there. That's, um, I actually shot at the igl retriever championship in 2021, um, at ampton, so I have that framed as well oh nice.
Speaker 1:So at first I thought maybe it was a family business family hobby no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Just fashion, just passion, just passion. I should have more dog prints, ken, probably. Maybe I need to do it all with dog friends well, you see dogs enough.
Speaker 1:You need to mix it up a little. Yeah, well, man, I mean, it's just been such a pleasure. I'm really looking forward to it. Hopefully I'll be seeing you at the IGL. I'm sure you'll be there this fall. I already got my plane ticket, got my room and I'm ready.
Speaker 2:Good Well, look forward to it.
Speaker 1:Last year, I had to. Were you there all three days? Yes, you know, the second day I had to leave, I in the us long story, I mean from left the us I had my passport. I thought was lost, okay, and I forgot that I'd reported online lost, found it, took off, left dallas, texas, flew all the way to heathrow, got there and when I left Texas, you know, oh it's good they checked my passport nothing, you know. I got the UK and Heathrow, went through customs and I got stopped. They were really nice to me. I was panicked.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I'm going to have to go home yeah, don't do that this year they gave me a piece of paper and told me to go to the consulate or the embassy and I went there Tuesday. Yeah, it was Monday, tuesday, wednesday, right Was the truck? Yeah, I went there on Tuesday and got my emergency passport. Good, and it was, my daughter was getting married that Saturday. You know I left you guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thursday, saturday I left you guys Thursday morning I thought I was going to miss it. I thought, well, if they don't issue it to me, what am I going to do? I was in a panic, but it all worked out. I took a train down from Branscombe Beach there, where I was staying. I love the trip. I stayed at the Mason Arms.
Speaker 2:I saw your video the history yeah, yeah, amazing. And I saw your video the history yeah yeah, yeah, amazing. We've got that in all pockets of the UK and obviously the IGL last year was down in Devon. This year it's not near the Scottish borders, which is a beautiful part of the world.
Speaker 1:I'm excited. I can't wait to go back. I'm going to try to spend a day or two in Dublin or in Ireland before I come home. But yeah, I love the country and I will try my best. As soon as you find out about the Skinner World Cup, I'll make a reservation. Well, ben, I know you're a busy man and thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be on here with me. It was a pleasure meeting you and you know, tell everybody I know we can't buy your dog food here in the States. You and, uh, you know, tell everybody I know we can't buy your dog food here in the states, but let them go check your website out.
Speaker 2:What's your website? Yeah, so our website is wwwskinnerscouk, so you'll find all the information, a bit about the family history. There'll even be a picture of my grandfather we didn't get time to touch on this, but my grandfather and his 1953 leyland comet lorry that we've actually now bought back, so I'll send you a photo, if I can. Yes, please, yeah, you can find all of our information on there and what we do, and follow our social media and Facebook and Instagram.
Speaker 1:And Ben, I'm going to try. You know I follow you. I don't follow the company I need to do that, do that. You'll have all the. You'll have the Skinners World Cup and everything on that. Yeah, that's how I missed it, I guess. Okay, Other thing if I ever get to come over and have the time and you have the time I'd like to come and tour your place.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Heck, we may even do a podcast from there. You're more than welcome to do that. That would be fantastic. Yeah, come look at the food and the history of the site and where the food's made. You're more than welcome.
Speaker 1:All right, I will, Ben, thank you so much and I can't wait to see you this fall, Thank you, Thank you very much. When you're getting ready to go on your next hunting trip, make sure you pack the most efficient and reliable ammunition on the market. Migra ammunition brings you the most diverse loads on the market. Migra's patented stacked load technology is the epitome of efficiency Two shot sizes stacked together to create the most diverse and efficient line of shot shells in the industry. It doesn't matter what flyway, what state or what the weather. The standard remains the same At Migra reliable loads that perform in any condition every single time. We're proud to have Migra Ammunition as a sponsor for Gun Dog Nation.