Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Greg Blair - Purina, Pointing Dogs, Field Trials
#37 The journey from novice to expert in the world of upland hunting is paved with lessons often learned the hard way. In this captivating conversation, Kenneth Witt welcomes Greg Blair, a senior specialist with Purina's Sporting Dog Group, who brings three decades of pointing dog wisdom to Gundog Nation.
Greg's passion for bird dogs began in the 1990s, evolving from casual hunting over a springer spaniel to campaigning a Hall of Fame English Pointer. With refreshing honesty, he describes himself as "an amateur who knows enough to be dangerous," yet his insights reveal a deep understanding of what makes pointing dogs tick. When Greg speaks about following a bell-collared dog through Wisconsin's northern forests, you can almost hear the cadence of the bell and feel the anticipation when it suddenly goes silent - signaling a dog frozen on point.
The conversation flows naturally through essential topics for anyone interested in pointing breeds. Greg's approach to gun breaking dogs emphasizes the importance of bird exposure before introducing gunfire, stating with conviction that "most gun-shyness is man-made." His explanation of how to properly develop a steady pointing dog offers practical wisdom that could save handlers years of frustration. The discussion about ruffed grouse hunting in the popple stands of Wisconsin paints a vivid picture of one of North America's most challenging and rewarding upland pursuits.
Perhaps most valuable is Greg's advice for newcomers: find a mentor, join a club like NAVHDA, and prepare for a "roller coaster" of training highs and lows. His perspective on the false dichotomy between field trial dogs and hunting dogs challenges conventional wisdom, asserting that well-bred, properly trained dogs can excel in both venues. Whether you're considering your first pointing dog or looking to refine your training approach with your current companion, this episode offers genuine, field-tested knowledge that will enhance your understanding of these remarkable sporting dogs.
Join our community at patreon.com/gundognation for monthly open forums where you can ask questions and learn from fellow enthusiasts who share your passion for preserving our gundog heritage.
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Hello and welcome to Gundog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gundog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet and join our email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders that will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters Mo Pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project called Pitney Myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on Curb Records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harlan, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our youtube channel to check out patreoncom forward slash gundog nation. For ten dollars a month, you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly, we will do a monthly forum, an open forum, where you can ask me anything gundog related and we'll learn from each other in community. Should be a lot of fun each month we will do that, so check it out. Patreoncom forward slash gundog nation.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is kenneth whitt, and welcome back to gundog nation. I'd like to thank all of our sponsors. I should be doing this on all of them. We do have commercials throughout. Uh, they're brief. We don't have a lot of commercials on here, but I want to thank the people that keep this going Purina, retriever Training, supply, cornerstone Gun Dog Academy, migra Ammunition and my buddy, david Bavario, who raises labs down in Bernie, texas. We've got a brand new commercial for him on here too.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited today to track these guys down. I've got a few friends at Purina the good thing I like about I'm going to talk a second before I get him on here but what I really like about Purina is the people they hire to represent the brand and that shows up at these events. These people are seasoned trainers, hall of fame, dog owners, uh hunters they. It impresses me that Purina seeks people of that caliber to put on their payroll to represent them. And this is another, uh, young man I'll I'll have on here this afternoon. Uh, from up North and I've had a real passion for upland hunting and I just got an english pointer puppy and this guy's gonna tell me how to train that dog. Uh, I might get some free training out of him. Anyway, uh, I'll stop running my mouth and get mr greg blair from purina. Greg, tell everybody where you're at today and what you do.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, thanks for having us on having me on. Actually, my name is Greg Blair. I'm a senior specialist with the Green and Pearl Plants Sporting Dog Group and my emphasis is on bird dogs. So any pointing dog, sponsorship, hunt tests, field trial clubs in the country, that's my team. I currently live up in the Milwaukee Wisconsin area, so up north as some people call it, but I have a daughter down in Birmingham, alabama, so I get across the country quite a bit with field trialing with family. So I work from home. Headquarters for Perina's in St Louis get there a few times a year but currently right now I'm in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:Now is your daughter at UAB. She's working there.
Speaker 2:She graduated from Auburn this spring and she's working in the NICU at the UAB Hospital. So we love it. We love it down there. Now, did she go to Auburn or was she working at Auburn? No, she went to Auburn. She graduated at War Eagle.
Speaker 1:Now, that's a big deal down in Alabama. You're either in or you're out, right, yeah, and we're in, yeah, yeah. Right before we got through talking, I was texting a really good friend of mine who's a US wildlife biologist, keith Westlake, who's a graduate of Auburn and he's from Georgia, which is really all good for her. I got friends in Birmingham, as a matter of fact, keith and Josh Parvin the Cornerstone guys are all just outside of Birmingham. Not sorry, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's beautiful. I mean, I don't think people realize that trip from Nashville down to Birmingham and back and forth, how scenic it is and rolling hills. It's amazing, it's great, it is.
Speaker 1:I've got a family in Nashville and been going there for years. Well, greg, you do something that's dear to my heart, but also that is something I really don't have a lot of experiences, but I'm getting ready to get there. How long have you been running, training or hunting with dogs?
Speaker 2:Well, I started. I should say I started hunting over a retreat or a springer, I mean in the 90s. I've got my first short hair in 98 that's when he was born, um, and I started. I hunted before that with some buddies who had wires and short hairs and I knew I wanted plenty of dogs. So that's what got me started in it. A friend took me hunting and I got into it. The gentleman who I bought my short hair from was really involved in shoot to retrieve Nastra here in Wisconsin. He got me involved in helping bird planting anyway back in the late 90s. Fast forward almost 30 years and I'm working for Karina. I've been in it for about 30 years.
Speaker 1:Greg, were you ever a pro trainer? No, just an amateur.
Speaker 2:I am an amateur who knows enough to be dangerous and I know when to quit and seek a professional help.
Speaker 1:That's so funny. Yeah, I just spent three days, eight hours a day, with Clark Cannington getting him to train me to be a better trainer, and three days ain't enough, believe me, but it was helpful.
Speaker 2:They can train dogs all day long. It's training us, that's right.
Speaker 1:So, Greg, did you have another occupation outside of dogs and hunting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a degree in commercial art, graphic design, and I owned an advertising agency for 10 years and then one of my clients, an investment firm, hired me out as a marketing manager. So 10 years on my own, 10 years with them and now I'm starting my 11th year with Purina. So that's kind of been where I'm at. My background is in graphic design, advertising and marketing, so my job kind of is the marketing. I'm out there marketing for ProPlan, but no, my passion, my upland, my background in dogs was all just from a friend taking me hunting.
Speaker 1:Greg, growing up in Wisconsin, I assume that you had a pretty good grouse population at that time when you were a young man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Has that changed?
Speaker 2:No, it still goes pretty good. And they say the grouse population has a 10-year cycle of up and down and you can pretty much go by that. And what I go by is when I'm attending some of these field trials across the country, basically from the New England, michigan, wisconsin, minnesota. You see those numbers in Wisconsin and Minnesota carry that 10-year cycle. I mean you'll have some good years. I never really see a terrible terrible, but you can see some great years. But usually it's pretty consistent.
Speaker 2:One year might be good on woodcock when you're up there, depending on the migration when it's going through, and some you just hit it, depending on the migration when it's going through, um, and some you just hit it right with the grouse. So I don't hunt as much as I did before before I had the job where I traveled, but I still get up there a couple times a year. Plus we hunt the rough grouse society hunt in minnesota. So we can see what the numbers are here in the upper midwest pretty well every year. But it's definitely worth it. I wouldn't change it even if the numbers were down. I'd still go out there and get behind a dog with a bell on it and there's nothing better now, what parts of this of wisconsin are more more famous for grouse hunting?
Speaker 1:is it the whole state or just certain areas?
Speaker 2:it's north. Um, if you grabbed wausau-Stevens Point, it's kind of right in the middle. If you took a line from Green Bay across west and go totally north of that I'm trying to think of the highway, if it's Highway 10 or whatever it may be, but it's typically, and that's about three and a half hours north of where I'm at here in Milwaukee, east or west, you just stay up north and then transfer that across to minnesota and it's kind of the same. So, okay, I I'm not familiar with minnesota as well, but I bet if you were in minneapolis and you drew a line straight west and you went north, you could hunt for days before you got to canada and be fine now as far as hunting lands there in wisconsin, is there a lot of public hunting land or do you have to seek private?
Speaker 2:No, there's a lot of paper land, a lot of public land, state land, federal land. I swear by Onyx. You just get that. You start clicking on public land and follow the roads Shoot. When I had the short arrow and we were hunting in the early 2000s. I go up there now. I mean some of those roads are growing old breadgrass. I mean I know they're there, I know the trails are there, but it's different. But you can hunt for days.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm wanting to try that myself and do some do-it-yourself stuff up there. Is it really crowded?
Speaker 2:Like I said, I haven't been up there quite a bit for a few years, but I would never have used the word crowded, because if you drive and oh, here's my road all of a sudden I see a truck parked there. Go two or three more miles. You'll find a walking area somewhere. I mean, there's plenty of forests, plenty of state-run grounds, federal grounds. You'll find spots.
Speaker 1:Okay, now, greg, I'm going to change gears a second. I want you to kind of educate me being a youngster that's funny, I'm not young to being a newcomer to use the English pointer to hunt with myself. I've been with guys, right, but this is my first. These pointers. Typically I know they hunt, you know I'm used to retrievers, right, and they hunt close. Do these pointers how far out on average do they hunt when you're grouse, hunting rough grouse?
Speaker 2:It's hard to tell with yardage because the terrain is so different and they're going to. I don't want them in front of me. If I wanted that I'll get a cocker or springer or something like that. What I like to say is I like to hear on bell range. So you get a nice tone bell, not a little, but get a nice tone bell. Cut them loose and keep them in front of you and just keep them so you can hear the bell. And I want to see them. You know every couple of minutes for them to pop in. But as long as I'm hearing the bell and I know they're at 10 o'clock and two o'clock, I'll follow a bell in the woods and I'll see them every now and then I'll keep following them.
Speaker 2:If I don't hear the bell, then I'll go in a little bit towards them and always keep a compass or a tracker with you so you know where I'm at, where they're at. In field trialing you can't use the tracker to watch the dog, but in hunting I'd always have the handheld with me and if I'm not sure where that bell is, I'd be like, okay, he's over there. But like Eric said on your other podcast, they have to adjust to the terrain. Okay, I don't want one under my feet. I know some call the English Shutter the gentleman of the grass dog and they want to see him close and they're nothing more beautiful than a dog on point. Yeah, but I'd rather have one out there punching the front, as we call it in field trial, than just zigzagging in front of me, because I can zigzag in front of me and kick, grouse up like they can, but I like them kind of out of sight for a while. Hear the bell, follow the bell and enjoy the woods.
Speaker 1:So you're using the bell much more than the tracker. You're not jerking that tracker out over five seconds. You're listening. You're not jerking that tracker out over five seconds. You're listening.
Speaker 2:You're listening To me. There's nothing more enjoyable to listening in the woods and smelling the pine trees than to listen to that bell. Just ting, ting, ting, ting, ting. And then you walk to the dog when you hear it go silent. It's something, the cadence of the dog running and that bell bouncing against their collar.
Speaker 1:It's it's beautiful here. You know, I'm hoping getting ready to experience that, so I never obviously, like I'm saying, I'm kind of inexperienced with running those, so I didn't know about the bail, so I've got to purchase a bail for my dog yeah, it's, they're.
Speaker 2:They're. To me they're a lifesaver, because then you're not always watching your handheld, you're not always looking down at you know your tracker, you're just listening for it. You know, if they got off to the side a little bit, bring them around, get them around in front, or if they're behind, you, get to the front.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's, it's much more peaceful in the woods so, greg, when're doing it, when you're trying to get them back to you, bring them back in, are you using a verbal command? How are you doing that?
Speaker 2:Typically, and even you'll see it in field trialing, and so I do it. When I'm hunting, I don't try and talk to them a lot. I mean, let them do their thing. If I need to quote, unquote, sing to them or call to them, that's when I'll get on them. And they know. Now, if it's in the woods and they can't hear me and the wind's blowing, I've got a whistle, a Fox 40, one of those P-list whistles that will cut through the wind, and they know a couple of toots and they need to get back to me and then I'll watch them to track or to see if they heard me or not, if they need a little reinforcement with a tickle on the neck, then I'll reach out to them with electronics.
Speaker 1:Now I know you're in business, so this might be a loaded question what's your favorite tracking system?
Speaker 2:The Garmin 550 Plus. Okay, yeah, you can track and train and we can use those for field trialing, so it's an all-in-one piece that I hook it to my vest when I'm walking or I hook it to my saddle when we're on the horse, and it's.
Speaker 1:It's very I love them now I'm getting to ask you kind of a controversial question. So I know you're in business right and you're. You represent all pointing breeds. You started out with the Springer. I know, know from our conversations before you've had setters what's your favorite bird dog?
Speaker 2:One that I could win with.
Speaker 1:I got that and breed-wise what's your favorite? That's politically correct.
Speaker 2:I keep going back to the pointer, the English pointer. I've got a soft spot for the English setter, but they're just. If all I was going to do was hunt, I'd probably have one of each, a setter and a pointer. But I'd probably go to the pointer more often. Just the power, I mean both of their styles you can't beat. I mean walk up on either one of them. That's pointed. I'm always carrying my phone to take pictures of that, but I'd probably take the pointer.
Speaker 1:Why is that? I like setters too. I was around some of my youth. I didn't own them, but my friends had those when I was growing up. What do you see, are major differences?
Speaker 2:Well, the odds of you getting and this is really not slim odds, but the odds of you getting a good to great dog out of just picking one out of the litter is probably going to be better with a pointer than it is with a setter. If you've got eight dogs, six out of the eight pointers are probably going to be good to great dogs, where you might have four to five out of the setter are good to great and the other two are going to be good and the last one is going to be a great gentleman's hunting dog. But I'm looking for the best of the best and your odds are picking that out of a group are probably going to be a little bit better with the pointer. But then you don't have to shave a pointer either. The setters need to maintain their coat when you're in the hot season. But I just I don't know, it's hard to pick.
Speaker 2:I've been blessed by that one, the Hall of Fame dog. That it's hard, maybe that's. My problem is I'm looking for a setter to replace him and I don't think I'll ever do it.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training the retriever. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone would be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next and what to do when problems arise. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom to learn how you can train your retriever.
Speaker 1:I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshened back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of Cornerstone Gundog Academy since 2016, and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I've used it. It's proven and tried and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Let's talk about that, greg. That's the leading question of the hour. Let's talk about your Hall of Fame English Pointer. What was his?
Speaker 2:name Nicholas Sutter, Blair's Witch Project, and he got that name because his dad's name was Witch Doctor, Grouse Feather Witch Doctor, and if any of you are as old as I am, there was a little handmade movie that came out back in the early 2000s called Blair's Witch Project. So it was like with my last name. I don't know how I could not have named him that. So anyway, his call name was guy um, a great friend of mine, alan dunn, dr alan dunbar at the green bay. Um bred him and I got him from doc. He's a field trialer himself, horseback with setters.
Speaker 2:Um just thought this dog would fit me and he did. Um. I got him when he was about a year old, so I knew what kind of traits he had, I knew how big he was, I knew how he ran, how his tail carried, and then he went on and my trainer and I I put two amateur national championships on him and Tom Wade from Dale Creek Gun Dogs put the national MBHA Open Championship on him and a runner up at the national free for all. So we've we've had really good success with him and I think it's been two and a half years that he passed away on good Friday but he got into the MBHA hall of fame last year. So he's been a once in a lifetime dog.
Speaker 2:He could do it all I mean wild bird hunted, field trialed never lost him. If I lost him it's because we couldn't find him on find a bird. So yeah, he was. I compare him a lot to what I want and I don't know if I'll ever get it, Even on a pointing dog. I've got a pointer here now in my house that I'll take it while bird hunting any day of the week, but he's kind of goofy when it comes to field trialing. I'm trying to find one that'll do it all, like Guy used to.
Speaker 1:What made Guy different, what made him stand out to everything else you've had?
Speaker 2:Bird finding.
Speaker 1:Just that natural nose.
Speaker 2:The natural nose and the keen sense to his cue was when we run field trials. We're on a course, in a field, in a plantation, wherever it was. If he wasn't finding birds to begin with he dug deeper. He wouldn't get off course. But that 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, where you want to keep them moving with you, he would expand that deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper until he found birds. So he had a great nose. His style was impeccable. When he ran, you know, his tail was cracking all the time, pointed with the high head. He was just the right size for me. Great dog in the house with the kids. My daughter ran him a lot, won with him a lot. He was just. He was. You know, know, I thought I always knew when I put him down.
Speaker 1:I could win. You know, there was never a question, greg, when you hunt and maybe do you hunt with one dog, or does people typically take more than one dog when they're upland hunting? What's your preference?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. Well, first, we definitely take more than one if we're there for multiple days, because it'll take more. But when we drop, when we pull up to a spot to grouse hunt, we'll put two or three dogs down at a time. Now I'll only handle one because I'd like to enjoy the woods. I don't want to be worried about it. But if I'm with Tom the pro or other pro professionals and they've got dogs to run, they might run too and I'll run him.
Speaker 1:So you'll have pointing backing or just covering the woods or the grounds. Yeah, we'll run multiples definitely. And it's just a general question for me, like when you have you ever hunted in a scenario where you've got some different breeds, like maybe you've got a point of your buddy's got a britney?
Speaker 2:or a setter yeah does that happen a lot well, lot, well, quite a bit. And when we go to North Dakota in September we've had Griffons, wire hairs, brittneys, pointers, setters, short hairs, beasleys, weimaraners, red setters. We have the Crayola box, crayon box and we run them all. You know again, out there, I could run. You know again, out there I could run two at a time and tom could run two at a time and we might have six dogs on the ground, not a walking spot. And you know it learns. It teaches other dogs to run with other dogs to back different types of dogs. Different dogs have different ranges. So I, you know, a young setter or pointer might be running with a big run and short hair and it might help pull them out, you know. So we run them all together. They learn from each other. Yeah, we're not prejudiced against any breed. We got them, we'll run them.
Speaker 1:You know, to me that would be fascinating just to watch the different breeds and see how they interact and see what the differences are. I'd love to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you don't see it, they're out there for one. All of them are out there to find birds. Now, if they're young they might not know why they're out there, but those older dogs, those seasoned dogs you take a Brittany, you take a Sutter short hair they know they're out there to hunt and as long as their manners are right, I don't care what breed it is. I mean, and that's what we're out there for.
Speaker 1:We're out there to train too. So to work on manners, Greg, how young do you think is too young to take a pup in the woods on a real live hunt with adult dogs, With?
Speaker 2:adult dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, too young or seasoned dogs.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll just tell you what I would do If I had a dog, a puppy. I wouldn't do anything in the woods. What I tell people is when they get a puppy, for six months let it be a puppy, bring it in the house, teach it its name, let them know where you live, let them know about your kids and your neighbors and cars and riding in the vehicle. You know, six months, yeah, I'd be taking them in the woods if I could go for walks, get them figured out. I wouldn't be running them with older dogs until they've got a season or two under their belt. And even if you had an older dog and I'd have a younger dog, out of respect I'd let you go one way and I'd take them the other way Until I've got some type of at least handling manners on that dog, and that might be a year and a half, the second year.
Speaker 2:Me personally, I don't want to ruin your hunt and I don't want to I can't say expose. I mean because being in the woods with a young dog is never bad exposure. I mean you want to be careful with gunfire. I'm a firm believer that I won't say all, but I said the majority of gun shyness is man-made. Now, if I'm going to cut my young dog loose with you and two other guys and we forget that we got a young dog and we've got a couple of wild flushes, we're off, shoot all of a sudden my dog. I can't find him because he's back at the truck. That's my fault. Yeah, I put him in a situation I never should have put them in.
Speaker 2:So I need to have all the foundation of being a puppy exposed to gunfire, exposed to just multiple dogs in the field, because I don't want my year-and-a-half-year-old dog excuse my French playing grab ass with all your dogs and taken away from the hunt when all he wants to do is bump and chase and chase butterflies. If I know he's not ready, you do that in training. Enough to know, hey, can I brace in with an older dog. Do your experiments in training before you get to the woods if you want to enjoy the hunt, especially if you know hey, I'm going to the woods with two other guys and they've got dogs that are three, four, five, six years old. I'm going to hunt with you all, but I'm gonna tell you hey, this afternoon I'm gonna take old bob out here by myself and we're just gonna go do this logging road, you know, and just make it. So we're all having a good time. So I would probably tell he's got a couple seasons under him before I run him with other dogs and know that he can handle it.
Speaker 1:Okay, how do you gun break a dog? Tell me how you do it.
Speaker 2:Birds birds, birds, birds. They're not thinking about the gun. You'll know if they're bird crazy. If they're as a puppy, two, three, four, five months old, a wing, whatever, throw that wing away. Get them some live pigeons, get them chasing, have them all focused on birds and want birds. Then just take out a small I'm sorry, the calibers to me are not that smart on if it's a small, 22 or whatever Get them chasing a pigeon and wait until he's 40, 50, 60 yards away chasing that pigeon and wait until he's 40, 50, 60 yards away Chasing that pigeon. Just cap off the gun behind your back. Do that for a few weeks to where he heard it. He might stop and look around and then keep going chasing the pigeon. But it's all with birds.
Speaker 2:I don't slap pans in my kitchen. I don't take them to parks. I don't go to fireworks. It's all man-made and you can ruin them in my kitchen. I don't take them to parks. I don't go to fireworks, it's all man-made, I mean, and you can ruin them in a heartbeat. Now, I don't. I've got a six-year-old pointer here and he's not gun-shy because I hunt them. But it's just something weird about the Fourth of July with him, even at our house and we're miles away from any fireworks. He hears that and he kind of looks around and I'll find him, like, laying in my garage.
Speaker 2:I mean it's not running away, he just he's just not comfortable with it. So what I do, even at six years old, I'll take him down to the kennel, where they're out in the middle of the country and there's no fireworks, and I just let him stay there for a week and get him out, because I mean, that's like putting you and I in an uncomfortable situation. We don't want to be there and we're just scared of it. So if you do your foundation right in the beginning, do it with birds, get them crazy about birds, okay, and then just make that distance shorter and shorter and shorter to where you know they're not even caring about the birds, and then actually kill a bird with that sound, let them go get their mouths on it and they'll be oh man, there's nothing wrong with that shot and I just actually I get to put that in my mouth and I get a reward. So you, you need to start with baby steps, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Uh, all this stuff is.
Speaker 2:I'm taking serious note, just cause I'm I just got to ask a pro, because I, like you, just hang out on the coattails of some of these pros and I get to see a lot of them with my job, in a lot of different ways to skin a cat and a lot of different seminars Right, wrong and different but I try to soak it in. I try to take as much as I can, and what I've learned with pointing dogs is just shut your mouth. We talk way too much to them. Let them do what they're going to do, you know, and so that's good advice.
Speaker 1:You know, just going to those Ronnie Smith seminars and seeing how quiet he is when he works a dog, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:It speaks volumes and he's put. All these trainers are so well at reading a dog, putting the foundation on a dog, so when they're out there they don't have to talk a lot. They can read what's going to happen next, or they can anticipate when they need to put a little reminder around their neck, or they can when to say something, when not to say something. Everyone, young or new, thinks the magic word is well. Well, a dog doesn't know what woe means out of the womb. But you see them out there with their three, four months old, and as soon as a person thinks the dog knows where the bird is, they're young whoa whoa.
Speaker 2:I'm like, did you teach the dog what was, or do you just think by saying whoa, he's gonna stop? I'm like, so those guys are amazing at reading dogs, knowing when to say something, when not to say something. Um, that's training. And then you layer over the stuff that we do with field trialing the whole talking, singing when to, when not to, is an art, it's a game, it's a competition. It's amazing. People don't see or know the insides of what's really going on. When you watch a field trial, there's a lot that's going on.
Speaker 1:Have you done a lot of the horseback upland hunting? Tell me about it. I've never done that. That's on my bucket list. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:I haven't hunted much off of horseback. Usually when you're doing that it's down in Georgia or in Alabama on the plantations and we're either in a buggy or we're walking. But I mean you have a scabbard on the side of your horse and that hooked to your saddle, that you got your shotgun in there and basically instead of walking you're riding a horse following your dogs, and especially out on the prairies where it's allowed. I mean that would be awesome. I mean I can't imagine saving my maybe I should walk more to get my lungs in shape, but to save my lungs by sitting on a horse and you see your dog on point, you stop the horse, grab your gun, walk up to the dog, shoot a bird, send the dog for the retrieve, come back, put your gun on your saddle and get back on the horse and follow the dogs. I mean to me to me that that's perfect. But when we go to North Dakota we walk. We don't let all these guys train up there with their horses, but we walk.
Speaker 1:Now, greg, for rough grouse, and you're back in Wisconsin again. Is there certain types of timber that you're looking for? Oaks Is there any particular trees that you're going after to get into?
Speaker 2:The young popple. Is there any particular trees that you're going after to get into the young popple? And again, I think again I'm not an RGS person, a rough grouse aside, but I think it's 10 to 12-year-old popple you don't want the real fresh cut. You know where you can see the treetops that they just went in there and cut off. You don't want the real old stuff because there's not enough vegetation. I think it's 10 to 12, and these people can correct me if I'm wrong but you want that to. Where it's hard to walk through, there's enough cover from predators. They can get through. That. Got the.
Speaker 2:You know the food on the ground, um, or you know pines. I mean there's I've. I've hunted in you know standing pines and and had a lot of good luck A lot of times. You like that transition where it's going to transition from pines to popple, or the transition from a stand of popple to a swamp bottom. That edge and grouse run a lot more than people think. They will push from pressure right to the edge and you better be ready when you get close to that swamp edge that they'll flush out, um, so they'll run from some cover too. But y'all you like to see that transition. And if you're looking for woodcock, look for the, the mossy, boggy wet bottoms, because they like to get their beaks into the ground and you know, you know, eat for worms and stuff, so you like to see that.
Speaker 1:When you're saying popple Greg, is that like a poplar tree?
Speaker 2:Birch popple white. Oh, birch, like a birch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a birch tree popple, Kind of a white bark, maybe Always you can definitely tell.
Speaker 2:I think Onyx has a layer going back to Onyx on their maps of cuts. So when a federal land is cut, it'll tell you approximately the year it was cut. So if it was a 2020 cut, you know it's a five-year-old stand. You're like, well, let's skip that one, let's go over to this one. So it's making it easier to try and you know target where you want to go.
Speaker 1:But you know target where you want to go, but you know. Isn't Onyx great?
Speaker 2:It's great. It could be a curse as well. But I remember before Onyx when we just had Garmin maps of where to go. You drive by a place and go ah, that doesn't look good. After about a day you're like well, what looks good to me and what looks good to a burger? So let's just go go pound it. So nothing beats shoe leather. But you know, definitely a different cover will hold different birds purina pro plan.
Speaker 1:Here at gundog nation, we use purina pro plan for our dogs. We actually use the sport performance edition, which is 30 protein% fat, the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s for their joints. It also contains amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics. It's guaranteed to have live probiotics in each serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use it and we are so proud to be sponsored by Purina dog food. Now, this is just really to educate myself more. What do you look for when you're hunting rough grouse as opposed to, say, sharptail or something out in the plains? What kind of terrain are you seeking to hunt sharpies?
Speaker 2:Sharpies, which I learned. I'm driving through North Dakota and South Dakota with my shorty, or the first year. I remember, and I just remember all the thoughts of all these big, you know fields of rolling golden, you know wheat and all this stuff. Sharp tails not so much. I mean we hunt cattle pasture. I say if the hay is up close to your knees that's too tall. I mean they don't like to be wet, they don't like that thick hay. But you can walk, drive past a cattle pasture that you think there is no cover. They'll be in there eating berries or whatever, the early morning and the late afternoon. So it can be as sparse as you know.
Speaker 2:Alfalfa field, a cattle pasture, again. The transition if you see a standing field with sunflowers and then there's a nice wheat field next to you that's been cut in the stubble, that's the other thing that surprised me is they'll be in wheat stubble and you won't see them out there walking or whatever. I mean the wheat stubble is only two, three, four inches high but there'll be cubbies of sharptails in that wheat, just eating the chaff that's been left behind. Tails in that we've just eaten the chaff that's been, you know, left behind. So a lot of egg fields now pheasants. Obviously you look for the slews, you look for the cattails, you look for the corn transitions and stuff like that, but sharp tails maybe. That's why I like it. It's slightly easier walking sounds like so.
Speaker 1:As far as what's the most difficult grouse to kill? As far as what's?
Speaker 2:the most difficult grouse to kill. I think a rough grouse. There's nothing, and I say it every time I go hunting. There's nothing easy about hunting rough grouse. First of all, how did I say this? You got to find the right spot, you got to be able to walk through it, you got to have a dog that can find them. And handling a wild bird is not every dog is not. Every dog is not going to right out of the box do it. That's why you take a young one. Just expose them, because it'll take a couple years getting a dog that can handle them. Pin them, go find that dog once the bird flushes. I mean, honestly, you're kind of just walking through the tangle popple and trying to get a gun out. I think they're one of the hardest birds to kill. I mean, what do they call them? They're the king of the woods or whatever you know that terminology is. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's tough, you know. All I can remember and the only exposure I've had to rough grouse is, you know, we had this conversation on the phone once. But you know, growing up in Appalachia, southeast kentucky, uh, I'd squirrel hunt and you'd jump a grouse squirrel hunting and it'd scare you to death. It's like a helicopter going off, you know, and they're so fast and I always thought, man, that's how the heck would you ever shoot one?
Speaker 2:you know well, that's a lot of times in field trialing. You'll hear the bell go silent so the handler will go over. Take the judge, judge, walk over there with them. They'll hear the bird leave before they get to the dog and see it, and that's, they'll count that as a fine. I mean as long as the judge can say yes, I recognize there was a bird there. We heard it leave, there's a dog, we're all good. But yeah, you're right, you hear them before you see them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something I've been the very first time scared me to death. I mean, I think I might have hit the ground, thinking I've been invaded or something.
Speaker 2:The other thing is when you're hunting, it only takes one BB to kill them, so don't be afraid to throw lead. I mean, I'm that way. I'm in the woods I'm like, oh, a missed opportunity. And then I'm like, walk over there. I'm like, well, that really wasn't that far. You're right, it scares you, you're not ready. You see all that tangled woods and you're like, well, that's a missed opportunity. But if you've got a good dog, a good tracking dog, a good retrieving dog with a good nose that can find a down bird, you'll kill more than you think that you'll miss, because it doesn't take much to kill them. But it's hard, it's not easy.
Speaker 1:Do you also? I know you do field trials. Obviously, greg, and being Purina, I'm sure you attend all kinds of events like that. Do you attend hunt tests for upland?
Speaker 2:I don't do as many hunt tests. I have a consultant that lives up in Minnesota that concentrates on all of the AKC hunt tests and the versatile breeds so he gets out to a lot of those. So I don't do those as much as actually the field trialing. So I've got three consultants that work for me. I'm you know I go to most of the big annual events, the big national championships. I sit on the board of the National Bird Hunters, which is a lot. That and US Complete are the two biggest walking field trial associations. So I do that and then I do some amateur horseback stuff but I don't get to many of the hunt tests.
Speaker 1:You know, to me Greg and we've talked a little bit I'm full with the working line, dogs and stuff, but to me, an upland dog, it's the ultimate athlete and the English pointer looks like an athlete. Obviously you work for, you know, the largest, most popular dog food company in the United States and a company I've believed in for years dog food company United States and a company I've believed in for years. What? How do you, guys you know, create a formula? What? What goes into creating a formula for an athlete? Because these dogs are athletes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are true, canine athletes, um, and I guess that's that's why we have managers in the field that are supporting these hunt tests and field trials, because we understand that we need to be out there for these canine athletes, to fuel them, because they are the best of the best they're like, they're like the pros, the olympic athletes that myself might look to breed to. So we want to make sure that we're fueling the best athletes that are out there. You know what goes into that Decades and decades of, you know, testing and research. I think Ray had mentioned and it's true we just came from our research facility on St Joe's, missouri. So we have a dedicated kennel. That's all they do is research and test and feed kennel. That that's all they do is research and test and feed. Um, we have 500 nutritionist scientists that are formulating this kind of stuff because they know, you know, the vo max or the omega-3s are, like eric said on your other podcasts, the recovery of these dogs. If I want to put a dog on the ground to hunt or to field trial, um, we know we have quality going in, but when they rest and they recuperate, how are they going to bounce back the next day? So we test and we research that.
Speaker 2:I know you're familiar with or not, dr Arlie Reynolds out of Alaska. He was huge in the sled dog industry or the segment, and he lived in Alaska and he was a researcher and a scientist for Purina. So he did year-long studies on what takes us Because we don't come close to putting our dogs through what the sled dogs go through. So he's up there researching how do they bounce back and how long can they go and how is their coat and what are they eating. And it's a fish base, it's a protein base.
Speaker 2:So we have the resources being Nestle, parina, to put that kind of stuff in the research and into our nutrition and our ingredients to prove that we do fuel the top dogs in the country. Because of that there's a reason why nine out of ten national champions are field-wide per unit, and that's on the retriever side, the coonhound side, the beagles and the pointing dogs. So it's a passion of mine but it's also a passion of those scientists and veterinarians that formulate it. That's way over my pay grade, but we need to make sure that we're out there in the field proving what they've researched and what they've developed, and it's been proven year after year that it is it's working.
Speaker 1:and you know it's hard for us sometimes to realize or or just to recognize that hey, just like a marathon runner, just like a dog, we got to fuel them before the event to prepare them to be fueled for the event. But then, after the event is just as important, the recovery yeah. What all are the. I know I listen to the ingredients, but maybe help me understand. I know you're non-nutritious, Greg, but you know a lot. What's the? Best ingredients for recovery that you guys put in like that's.
Speaker 2:That's gonna be a loaded question. I'm sure I'm gonna get wrong, but I think it's the combination of that fat and that protein, um, and it's the balance that we put in there. Yeah, it's a 30 20 so it's not oversaturated rated. You know it's not a 32 22 but it's like again, I'll go back to what eric said on your other it's digestibility, it's what can they get into'll go back to what Eric said on your other it's digestibility, it's what can they get into their system that they're not going to just in and out and lose it? You know, some dog foods are really dense and how does that break down in their system and how does it get into their bloodstream and into their muscle mass so they can use it? And again, that goes to all of our scientists and people who are educated and get paid to do that kind of stuff. But it's a balance of all of it and that research and that stuff that goes into the 30-20, our performance feed is also the same type of research that goes into, maybe like our 26-16.
Speaker 2:That's a lower protein and fat. That might be good for the off-season or it might be good for an all life stage. You know, bitch that's not being bred, but she's your kennel in the dog, you know, in the kennel. So it goes all into that balance. You know we don't look for just throwing ingredients into a bag and putting it on the bag. You know it's got to. There's got to be a purpose for what it's in there for. And again I'm I don't want to say because I'm going to be wrong, but it's, it's well balanced. Let's just put it that way, greg, we, we all have our I'm sorry, keeping them hydrated, which has nothing to do with dog food. I mean you need before and after, because you and I both can crash on the day that it's 90 degrees and we have no water in us. I mean that's key as well.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. I got early, kind of inexperienced and took a dog to a hunt test. Temperature got up pretty warm. You know it was early in the year. Of course we're in Texas and I hadn't properly hydrated my dog before the test. It was early, early morning and he jumps in on the water retrieve and drinks water for five minutes. I thought, oh man, what a mistake. You know I've never looked that won't happen again. So I make sure now that I'm hydrating the night before. You know, we live and learn. But I could get mad at him. I mean, heck, he's thirsty, you know.
Speaker 2:You keep water in front of them and they're doing their best. And what I see a lot too is, as we're field trialing, especially in the walking game, we've always got a water bottle with us. We keep calling them in giving them water, calling them in giving them water, calling them in giving them water. Well, if you fill my stomach up with water and tell me to go run another 100 yards Usually at about the 40-yard mark I'm going to stop and I'm going to puke off all the water. Their gut can only hold so much. So, yeah, you're refreshing them off. It's better off to get them cooled off in a pond or in a bucket. Get their undersides cooled down if you've properly given them the right nutrition and hydration before you get there.
Speaker 1:Now, we all have our preferences. What's your favorite protein source in a dog food?
Speaker 2:I use chicken. But the interesting thing you were saying, matt, is because I had a gentleman who one of the top amateur field trialers in the country was having an issue with. He just said it was kind of a sensitive stomach issue and of course they went to the vet and the vet put him on this high-dollar stuff and the dog was picking around and it wasn't eating it. So I said, hey, I'm going to just send you. It's not our performance, it's our sensitive skin and stomach and it's salmon based, so it's fish based. And I said it's not a veterinarian prescribed diet so you can get it over the counter. I said just try it, see if he picks that. And he goes, he, he loved it, he ate it up. I said we'll tell you what I'm going to do is I'm going to have you try.
Speaker 2:We have our performance in a salmon base as well, the salmon and rice. Um, so since the dog took to the salmon base protein well, and hopefully his stomach is going to, you know, not have any issues um, he'll probably stick with the salmon-based performance 30-20. Now I know the retriever segment really likes the 30-20. That salmon. Really, you see their coat shine when they come out of the water with those fish oils and it's only a little bit more in the Omega-3s and stuff. But the fish oils that are in the salmon are a little bit more.
Speaker 1:But I have good luck with the chicken rice and I just stick with it you know I can say this because you know I've got some different breeds and I still have one doberman protection dog. I've used chicken rice love it. Uh, for him what really put the what? Dobermans are really hard, they're kind of english porn. They run thin. They're hard to keep weight on. They're very athletic. I've just tried, just for the heck of it, tried that beef and bison purina man. I had to back off the food, the amount I was giving him, because it really made a difference. Now I know I'm horrible for doing this, but I like to test stuff around. Now I've just got a load of purina, the salmon and rice. I'm going to try that.
Speaker 2:I think you'll like it. I was going to ask where you're getting the beef and bison because I don't know if it's easily available. But try the salmon Again. Blend it for a week or two just to get them transitioned to a different food. But I think you're going really like it yeah, I get it directly from you guys.
Speaker 1:You know, because of the show and the beef and bison was was kind of difficult because it had to come in pallets, even though I'm not getting a.
Speaker 2:I only get six bags at a time yeah, and that's not a very popular skew, so I'm not sure how long it'll be around. But you know the salmon, the salmon and the chicken are very digestible. They're very good either way, I I wouldn't have a problem and both of them. I believe I shouldn't say this, but coming out of 26 16. But anyway, if you want to go to your off season, you could cut back on the protein and fat yeah, uh, my labs, you got to cut back the doberman.
Speaker 1:You can keep him on it year round. And this english pointer, I'm getting ready to find out.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's the key is, every dog is going to be different.
Speaker 2:As you know, you've got a different breed or different breeds. I stick to the 30-20 performance. It's an all-life stage food. So what I tell people, cradle to the grave. You can keep them on it, but now it's up to you and I as pet owners to watch how much we feed them. I always tell people I tell my mother-in-law this all the time that dog's always going to be hungry. She's like well, yeah, I've got to give him more. I said he's always going to be hungry. It's up to you to not get him fat. You know, and we always.
Speaker 2:Again, this was a perina research test. It was a lifespan test. 10 years old, they took a litter of puppies and you've probably heard this, ray might have told you this as well but they fed half of them this much and half of them like only 15% more. 10% more, and they got almost a year, almost two years, out of that properly fed study of a lifespan of overfeeding a dog. So you get the weight off of them. Their joints are better, their mindset is better. They're not laying around. It's up to you and I as pet owners to make sure we're doing all right. So, just cutting back on that pointer that's laying around in my camera. He might get a cup and a half, maybe two a day. He's fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of a pet peeve. I I hate so bad seeing dogs overfed, overweight, and it's our fault, you know. Yes, uh, but I do, I watch my dogs, uh, I watch their waistline every day and I, you know, I know when to take it up a little, when to drop it back a little yeah, well, that's the thing.
Speaker 2:All you have to do is look over top of them and see that hourglass figure. Make sure you can see that indentation before their hips. Make sure they have what we call a tuck underneath them so that their chest and their back end is not just like a straight Tootsie Roll. You need to have a little bit of a shape to them Do you have?
Speaker 1:I know you've got experience with lots of bird dogs, obviously, but how much experience do you have or have hunted with cockers?
Speaker 2:Enough to know that I bought one but no enough to know that I wanted one and I love them. I mean, they're little, they're little Labradors on crack is what I call them, and the good ones are good. I've always wanted one as my truck buddy, just to travel with me, but I fly so much that I'm like well, when I started having that idea, my daughter was still here at the house before she went to school and she's like she fell in love with them. So she's like, dad, I want to getcker when I, you know, get out or when I graduate, and I'm like all right, well. So I had a pointer that didn't cut, cut it in the field trial. So I traded them for a cocker. So I've got one on call when I need one, but I like them. A good one is hard to beat. I mean, we hunted with some really nice ones down at otter creek and they were.
Speaker 1:They were firecrackers well, I just I have one I just got from ben randall in england, who's a really, really excellent trainer.
Speaker 1:By the way, I've had him on the show here too, but I'd followed this dog for a year and he's a man. What he can do with the dog is unbelievable, uh. But in any event, uh, it's a female and she's actually on the small side and when you see her you would think it's this meek, mild, you know. But I've put her out. I've had her out this weekend to river by my ranch and man, I mean, she's a fireball, but I was doing water trees with her and like she's aggressive, you know, and I had some other dogs, young dogs, playing with her to see if there's some competition involved. And anyway she, it's like she flicks a switch and goes into hunt mode and I'm like who is this, you know? This is a different.
Speaker 1:And then when she's, when she's around, you know, outside playing, she's just like a normal fluffy dog.
Speaker 3:But there's something else and I'm like you, I'd heard about them.
Speaker 1:I finally got to hunt around one and everybody I talked to and I'm talking I've got some guys on here that are hardcore competitive retriever guys. I'll give you the first example Rhodey Best. He's got one and he absolutely is insane over it. But yeah, and I thought, man, I'm about to catch the bug, but I get it now. I like them, I mean.
Speaker 2:I love them. We have a really good ambassador for us, raglan Gundogs out of southern Illinois. He's got some really great ones. Jordan Horvath up here in Wisconsin has got some really nice. He's an amateur. I fell in love with the color. I don't even know what to call it, but that black roan ticks. I mean I just love that color and that'll probably be the one that we get. I say we it'll be my daughters, but yeah, I love Muntin behind me.
Speaker 1:I tell you I had Jay on the show and he has some beautiful cockers and I've not seen it or witnessed it, but I've heard he has one of the nicest kennels you ever pull up to and see he knows both him and Jordan.
Speaker 2:They know what they're doing. When it comes to training, like I said before, reading the dog and knowing what to do and when to do it and how to do it, I give those guys a lot of credit. They're great people.
Speaker 1:There's so many good guys that can do that. Ronnie Smith amazes me, clark Kington, rhodey Best. There's so many, I'm not even scratching the surface. The guys. I know I've never seen anybody can read an animal like that. I mean, a minute, Right, it's amazing. But yeah. So let me ask you this have you grouse hunted with a cocker?
Speaker 2:No, the closest I came was, like I said, my buddy had a Springer and I would hunt with him. The nice thing about the Springers is he could walk the two-track and that Springer would go side to side to side and typically a bird's going to cross the front sometimes. So no, I haven't, but they hold their own. I can't imagine they wouldn't.
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Speaker 1:The Waterstone Difference. I know you know the English guys. They get to run their dogs on so many more birds because they have the access. When it's in season They'll have dogs retriever 100 birds in a day because there's no limit at a lot of those places. So she's I've got videos and she's just a year old but she's retrieved over 100, some pheasant you know. So I'm excited to hunt with her this year. Uh, I'm ready to go. I need to. I need to tag along with you.
Speaker 2:I can put you in some nice spots. That would give me a reason to go.
Speaker 1:You know I laugh every time I tell somebody what I'm going to be doing in September. But I'm going to be in Wisconsin at Grouse, I think of American pilot. Talk about band camp, you know.
Speaker 2:In September? Probably not, it'll probably be. I think the trials are in October. In September I'll be in Iowa and North Dakota. That's the hard part is just traveling, trying to figure out. It's tough to get away to just to do fun stuff. Yeah, no, you'll have a good time. There's plenty of spaces that you'll find. Now I'm not promising there'll be birds there because they're a while, but you'll have a good time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I figured just the instruction Because, like I said, you know I know how to pheasant hunt, I'm getting a little better at duck hunting and stuff and you know I was a big game hunter. So I'm just, you know, this stage of my life hitting bird hunting water or upland, and so I figured anything I can learn to make me a better hunter and better handling my dog upland I'm ready for it.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you, if you enjoy upland hunting, the grouse was, I would just suggest have a handle on your dog. I mean, don't get them lost, don't you don't get lost? Make sure you have a compass put on your. You know, mark the truck where you're at, but you'd be amazed what you don't like I say you drive by somewhere and you're like man let's just go for walk. Let's go for a half hour walk and see.
Speaker 1:You'll enjoy it. I'm going to have to plug my computer in really quick. Just bear with me one second. I didn't have it plugged in, I just got to know this. While I'm doing that, trying to multitask, which is not always the best thing for me, um, how many dogs you have at the blair household right now?
Speaker 2:only one. Wow, wow. This one I sold. I had him and I sold to a buddy to get him involved in field trialing. That's kind of a cool story. And then, like I said, my setter I put down a couple of years ago. I'm looking for I think I'm going to have another one this fall and it's just my wife and I. Having a couple here is plenty, because I travel a lot. I don't want to stick here with all the dogs to take care of.
Speaker 1:I'm looking for one more, and I think it'll probably be a pointer Do you have a particular place that you get your pointers from? I know you probably know everybody.
Speaker 2:No, I just put the word out there that I'm looking, I know what kind of lines I like and what I've seen, but I'll tell you even the ones I've, you know, you see them, and then you get a pup. Like I say it's puppies are a crap shoot. You don't know what you're going to get till about a year and a half, two years old and you try to rely on those that you trust that say, hey, this one, yeah, keep going, or no, this one. You need to move them down the road and find a good hunting home for them and find something else, because I'm looking to win again. You know I I want to win. So I've just got a kind of a different radar than most. You know, maybe gun dog just hunting people do, but when I move them on going to some great, great hunting homes, that's for sure now, when you, when you get a new dog, will you have to have because of your work?
Speaker 1:do you have to have somebody else train it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, tom, again my friend here in Wisconsin at Dale Creek. He and his son train and then Tom runs the walk and field trial circuit so he'll run the open professional championships and I'll run the dogs and the amateur stuff. So we kind of have a good team and his girlfriend goes along and she scouts for us. So, yeah, he'll train it. You know, I'll go along and help or expose them or do the kind of the foundation stuff with him and then once he gets the dogs right, then I try and take over and I end up sending them back.
Speaker 2:It's like job security for him. He's got to fix everything I screw up. So but we work good together. He's about 45 minutes from me, so when I travel the dogs go down there and they stay with him. Um, my horse is down there, so it works out really well and that's so much of it in the hunting or field trial and game is just getting to know more people and building relationships and friendships and you know, and then there's going to you're going to have your good close ones.
Speaker 1:You know you're right. I think I've said it on the show before, but I've met some of the best people to hunt test and I've never field trialed yet yet. But it's a. It's a community it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong every I'm sure if you were in a bowling league or your golf or trap shoot, there are going to be issues with every club or every team. You've got to look past and say what am I here for? And enjoy it, and that I enjoy it. It's a passion of mine and luckily I work for a company that I mean. Obviously they value what Ray and I and Mark or other consultant or a manager do. We got to be in the field because they value what we do and what we bring to the table to you know, keep promoting the whole line of role playing.
Speaker 1:Great, you know. Keep promoting the whole line of role playing, greg, you know, a lot of times, you know, people think that maybe a field trial dog is not the best hunting dog, and vice versa. You've obviously have lots of experience in both realms. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:They haven't seen enough dogs. What they've seen they didn't like is it was a runoff or something happened or whatever. And I'll say it because they're my dogs. But I think people who've hunted with me or I know tom the trainer, I will take that setter that I put down and the pointer that I've got here and the pointer that I have is the son of Miller Speed Dial, national all-age champion. I'll take them wild bird hunting against anybody. Now it might take us a little while to get used to the grouse woods but on sharp tails pheasants, grouse, woodcock, they'll do it. A good dog that can adapt to what's around them if they handle it. They're not just runoffs. A runoff can be a gun dog, it can be an all-age dog, it could be a foot dog, it could be a cocker.
Speaker 2:I mean to say that field trial dogs don't wild bird hunt is not true, because a lot of them are tested Right now. They're all going. I say they all. Most of the handlers and trainers are going north to train on wild birds, then they come down, or they're going north to train on wild birds, then they come down. A lot of them spend the time in Georgia on plantations where some of them might be a pre-release program, but it's as close to wild as you're going to get. I've seen. I saw Dunn's tried and true on the prairies where he looked like an aspirin up there on a plateau just rimming the whole country. And then I saw him down in Georgia I don't know if it was at the southwestern or southeastern, I don't know in the plantation and he handled beautiful just right there and won that trial too. So a dog that is biddable and can adapt to the cover.
Speaker 2:It's not a field trial thing versus a gundog thing. It's how the dogs are bred and how they're developed. I'll the gundog thing. It's how the dogs are bred and how they're developed it. I'll take my field trial dogs over any gundogs and it's a different type of hunting.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have to be ready to not see the dog for a few minutes or 10 minutes, or just hear a bell, or just cut them loose on an edge and come around the corner after a walk in 10 minutes and see them standing there. You've got to get used to that. But once you get, get used to it, that's the style that I like. Now some people might call that runoffs, but I'm still shooting my limit, I'm still shooting, having a day in the woods. It's just a different style. I'll tell you the dogs that I have not kept because of tail set, because of low head while they're running, because of just whatever reasons, not backing whatever the reasons, I cut them loose from a field trial program, make anyone a bright gundog. I mean there's never one that I've gotten rid of and just made it into a pet. I mean they're going to be good gun dogs.
Speaker 1:So I was going to ask you so, since I'm getting ready to embark on training, my first pointer, which I'm going to seek advice and help from everybody I can, obviously, and just based on what I'm getting ready to say, on my experience and being in other breeds and other types of training, and I feel like and I've done Schutzen and everything that retriever training is the most long-term, complex training because you're teaching them so much, especially when you get to that high advanced level stuff. I'm hoping that this pointer training is not so hard. Is it any easier and shorter? I mean, are they more natural?
Speaker 2:I mean, with a retriever you're teaching hand signals and all this crazy stuff no, and you should probably ask ray that, because he's been exposed more to the plantation guys and I haven't been exposed to the retriever guys as much as he did. But I won't say they're more natural because I bet with a lot of those labs or retriever litters that they're trying to produce, they're trying to produce a natural dog. Is it a naturally calm dog? Is it a naturally marking dog? I mean, they're looking for the natural ability there too.
Speaker 2:But what I tell young people or people I said it's like a roller coaster. You just you're going to have your dips and you're going to go up, you're going to have your. You just hope you're keeping moving towards that summit, that you can take the ride down and enjoy it. But you're not the teenage years on.
Speaker 2:A puppy from nine months old, so they're about two and a half to three year old you're going to pull your hair up. And nine months old, so they're about two and a half to three year old you're going to pull your hair out and you hope by three years old or so, that they've got it. I remember when I was running shoot to retrieve and I was just praying that my short hair wouldn't rip the bird out before I got there and we were working on being steady to wings, steady to wings, and then, finally, after he was about three, two and a half, three, three and a half, I took a deep breath and I'm like, oh, he's got it, now I can enjoy it but it's going to be hair pulling, but a lot of it is reinforcing their natural ability.
Speaker 2:You know, most canines have that stalking instinct in them and what you're doing is you're bringing out being steady. You know, okay, you can stalk, you can stalk, you can stalk. They start chasing a bird. They realize they can't catch it now you start, you know, making them stand there longer. Or you know wild birds are the best because they know they'll never catch them. You know they'll get sick of chasing them. And then you know again, these pro trainers are going to be better. Ronnie might be telling me I'm football. You know, again, these pro trainers are gonna be better. And ronnie might be telling me I'm football you know wet and not understanding what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:But um, I'm gonna say it might be easier. I'm gonna go with that okay that's the answer.
Speaker 1:I hope for but you know, but you know I mean it is like if you've been to these, if you want to compete with your lab and getting this upper level stuff, I mean you're teaching them swim-bys and not to cheat the water. There's so much. Shitson is extensive training and obedience is very extensive Wow Retriever training. For me it's a long process and it just takes time.
Speaker 2:They get the higher dollar for the dogs and the training that we do at Employer Sutter World. I do believe. What I believe is, once you get them to that level and they know they've got it, it's like it's easier for an amateur like myself to reinforce it after he's three or four years old. If he starts taking a step, I know, okay, hey, he knows. Hey, okay, I'm supposed to stop. And then from there on it's like well, do I want to make? I don't force fetch any of my dogs. I let them naturally retrieve the setters do, the pointers do if they want to. I've never lost a bird, but I don't reinforce. Hey, there's a mark, where are you going to mark it? You know, throw a blind and do this and go back, throw a blind and do this and go back. And yeah, we don't go that far, I don't. At least Now our counterparts in NAMDA and the versatile. They take their short hairs and their draw thighs and their wire hairs through a lot of that. But no, I don't.
Speaker 1:Now, as part of your job with Corrine, do you also attend the spaniel trials?
Speaker 2:No, well, some people call britney spaniels britneys. I don't call them spaniels. But no, it needs to be a pointing dog, okay. So none of the spaniel cockers or um springers. No, no, I don't do any of that but britneys, you do the britneys yeah, so we have the american britney, all their field trials, hunt tests, even their confirmation shows. Yeah, we support them and all that they do and the trials that they put on.
Speaker 1:Greg, I always do this to everybody on the show, but I'm going to ask you all your years experience with dogs and you've had different breeds. You attend high level competitions, so you see it all. To someone who's getting ready to start training a dog, either for hunting or competition, or both, what's your number one piece of advice that you would give find a mentor, even if it's a club.
Speaker 2:Um, find a nab, the club maybe, and that's north american bursal hunting dog association. They have them all over the country. They help training days. They love helping each other.
Speaker 2:If you come in there and they see a six-month-old puppy and you open, you will have people all over your truck trying to, you know, give them pets and kisses and help you out and just say, hey, what are you here for? But you know, a mentor, a club, even a professional. You know, I'm blessed to have Tom around here so that I can just pick his brain or just watch or just hang out there, because you will learn so much and I try to pass that on to someone that's new and feel trialing, or even with it, I'm like I'm going to walk with you in this brace and then or I won't even tell them I'm walking and I will and then I'll just say, hey, do you mind me telling you what I saw? And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, nine times out of 10, it's either you talk too much or you don't talk enough, or timing of when you talk. So enjoy it.
Speaker 2:It's going to be a roller coaster. You're going to pull your hair out. Don't go into it thinking you're going to kill your limit all the time, especially with a young dog. Be ready to enjoy the ride for the next two or three years without killing a bird. I mean it might not happen, because a lot of times what we say in pointing dogs especially when they're a year and a half, two and a half going on three be ready to never shoot a bird. Because if they learn that they can point, bust it in there. Before you get there and you shoot it from 20 yards behind them and they still get the reward of the retrieve, they're going to be turning into a flushing dog because they're not going to wait till you're 20 yards, they're going to wait till you're 50 or a hundred because they know that they can flush and you're still going to shoot it. So they go in there and bust a bird. Let it go.
Speaker 1:Great. That's almost like a denial in a retrieve. You don't let them have it.
Speaker 2:Wow, have it, I'm glad you told me that you work so hard to get them to be steady. Now, you might not care if they're steady to wing, shot and fall, you might just want them to be steady to shot. So when, as soon as you shoot, they can break and mark a pheasant that's going to be running, that's totally fine. But if you start shooting before you get there and they bust, or even if you're standing next to them before a pointing dog is supposed to find the birds and stand there and let us blush, so if they start walking in with you when you're walking into flush, no bueno, that's not good, they need to stand back there, let you walk in flush. And then it's up to what type of finishing you want.
Speaker 2:You want to say to wing a shot, but what type of finishing you want? Do you want to set it to wing and shut? But if they get used to walking in with you or flushing it before you get there and you're shooting it and giving them a reward, it's like telling your kid no, you can't have another cookie, but you reach in there anyway, and now they're standing next to you. You give it to them. Well, what did you teach them? He taught them it was okay, and you just need to reinforce those little things and be ready to correct them, set them back, use a flank collar with them and do some teaching and make them go through college before they can get rewarded for that job.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad because I'm getting to do a lot of that this year. I'm so glad you told me that that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:It sounds simple, but it's important and take your time too, because it's going to be a rollercoaster and you're going to pull your hair out, and sometimes the best training is 15 minutes out there. They handle it. They did it right. You put them away. You give them a drink and they're done. You give them a drink and they're done. You know, try to set them up, and then they get older and then I try to set them up to fail.
Speaker 2:You know what are you going to do? Are you going to back on this one? Are you not going to back? I'm going to pop, I'm going to. I've got a pigeon and a launcher and you're pointing it and as I'm walking up there, I'm going to throw one out of my bag, you know. So, like all these different kind of from the lab stuff, he's throwing distractions. There's a lot, but just I think if you could slow it down, so many new dog owners they don't realize what they're doing because in their mind it's going 100 miles an hour and they're not sure what to do. It's just like all right, let's just take our time one last thing, greg, I want want you to.
Speaker 1:This is a good one.
Speaker 2:Explain to me and the listeners the major differences between a GSP, a German Shorthair pointer and an English pointer and I say that with not tongue-in-cheek, but the Shorthairs. There are more bigger, bigger running short hairs out there now than there were. The good Lord works in serious ways, but that short hair that I got in 98 was the best thing for me. I think the short hairs are one of the best pointing dogs for someone that's new. They're forgiving, they're versatile. Usually they're tough. They like water Typically're versatile. Usually they're tough. They like water. Typically they like to retrieve. So it's kind of the Swiss Army knife for someone that's new.
Speaker 2:That's not sure. Am I going to be plantation hunting? Am I going to want to chase ducks? Am I going to go to a cross? So I think the short hairs are more rounded than the English Pointers might be. Now, that being said, you could get a pointer that loves to retrieve and loves the water. But for me the short hair was perfect for me to start with, and then I decided I wanted to go into field trialing and I didn't want to do shoot to retrieve, and the pointers and the setters took over. But nothing better again, like Eric said to you, than walking up on a pointer or set or pointed on a grouse or anything and seeing the style and just the intensity that they that they have. But in in working styles you'll find a short hair could be a little bit closer in some lines and some of their. You know pedigrees but you can find that in pointers too, but typically the English pointers run a little bit bigger.
Speaker 1:Athleticism pretty similar.
Speaker 2:They're very similar. Again, you might get a more methodical working dog in the short hair, but it depends on what pedigree and what lines they're from. I've seen some short hairs that can roll with the best of them, and I mean there was a couple that were ran at Ames. I mean they were older and they didn't do the greatest at the all-age national this year, but they qualified and they won some pointer setter trials so they deserve to be there, and I think there are a lot of the same characteristics interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's great, because you know a lot of people ask me that and I don't have enough experience with either breed to answer that question it's whatever color crayon you want to pull out and draw with.
Speaker 2:I mean, like I said, I started with one and ended up with setters and pointers and back to setters. So don't be afraid to buy another one. You only live so long. You might as well get a second one, that's right.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. Uh well, greg, uh, man, it's been a pleasure having you on here and and there's lots of questions more I want to ask you and we may. We'll definitely try to get you on again. I tell people there's a lot of people that there's so much knowledge on here that there's no way I can do it in one podcast. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to pick your brain about. But, uh, again, just to tell everybody I know you're not selling anything or doing anything, but you do work for a very reputable company and just again remind everybody what you do.
Speaker 2:And with Purina, we're for Purina ProPlan. I cover all the pointing dog sponsorships in the country, so anything that we sponsor. If you see me out in the field or if you see me on social media or Instagram, I mean reach out, say hi. Questions that we can ask again, I have vets and scientists and nutritionists we can call, ask them, get those questions answered for you. Honestly, as you've listened, I don't know all the answers to nutrition, but I know who to call. So no, I'm proud to work for you. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, there's a lot of field trial stuff. We could talk about a lot of walking stuff. It's my passion and I love it. If I wasn't doing this, I'd be golfing or something, but I love doing it.
Speaker 1:Well, Greg, it's been a pleasure. I think you may have learned. This is a breed I've been wanting you on here for my own personal benefit, and I definitely got my money's worth today. Well hey, you have a great 4th July weekend and maybe I'll get to meet you in person here soon.
Speaker 2:Well, you give me a shout. I'm just glad to help you out.
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