Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Mick Walsh - Training Champions Across the Pond, Cockers vs. Springers
#38 Master gundog trainer Mick Walsh takes us on a journey through his remarkable 35-year career developing champion spaniels across Ireland and the United Kingdom. From his humble beginnings hunting with terriers as a seven-year-old boy to becoming one of the most accomplished competitive handlers in Europe, Walsh shares the wisdom that has helped him train an astounding 20 champion dogs, including 12 international champions.
Walsh offers rare insights into what truly separates champion dogs from the merely good ones. "The real good ones are good from the day they're born," he explains, detailing how he evaluates puppies by introducing them to game at a young age to see which ones have that special "fire" and natural enthusiasm. His ability to recognize championship potential early has been key to his success in both Springer and Cocker Spaniel competitions.
Perhaps most fascinating is Walsh's comparison between these two spaniel breeds. Though primarily known for his work with Springers, Walsh reveals why he'd personally choose Cockers for hunting—their smaller size allows them to navigate thick cover with less physical punishment. He also notes their remarkable psychological differences: "Cockers will hold a grudge. If you upset them, they don't forget it," offering valuable advice for anyone training these sensitive yet capable hunting companions.
The conversation explores the critical distinction between pace and drive in hunting dogs, the importance of dam lines in breeding, and Walsh's training regimen that he maintains while working full-time as a carpenter. We also hear his concerns about the future of gundog sports as fewer young people enter the tradition-rich activity that has defined his life.
Whether you're a competitive handler, a weekend hunter, or simply fascinated by working dogs, this conversation with one of the world's most accomplished gundog trainers offers invaluable knowledge from decades of experience and a passion for excellence that transcends borders.
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Hello and welcome to Gundog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt, coming to you from Texas, and I want you to know that Gundog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to unite. I want to build a community of people united to preserve our heritage of gundog ownership and to be better gundog owners. Stay tuned to each episode to learn more about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition from expert trainers, breeders and veterinarians. Be sure to go on our website, wwwgundognationnet and join our email list. You'll receive newsletters from trainers and vets and breeders that will also help you being a better gundog owner. And be sure to listen to some of our supporters Mo Pitney, who is a very good country musician and bluegrass musician. He has a bluegrass project called Pitney Myers and he's getting ready to come out with a new album on Curb Records, so stay tuned. Also, the music provided on our show is from Sean Brock, originally from Harlan, kentucky, just across the mountain from me. He did all the music that you hear on our introduction and our outro for the show. He played all the instruments except for Scott Vest on the banjo and Jerry Douglas on the dobro. Check them out. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our youtube channel to check out patreoncom forward slash gundog nation. For ten dollars a month you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly, we will do a monthly forum, an open forum, where you can ask me anything gundog related and we'll learn from each other in community. Should be a lot of fun each month we will do that, so check it out, patreoncom forward slash gundog nation. All right, welcome back to gundog nation. I'm coming to you today from fort mccavett, texas, at the ranch, and I've got a friend across the pond over in ireland, a guy I've been chasing for a long time to get on here. He's a busy man but he is one of the probably most renowned competitors in the gundog world in the United Kingdom and it's a pleasure to have Mr Mick Walsh here. How are you doing, mick?
Speaker 2:Thank you, Ken. It's a pleasure to be on.
Speaker 1:Where are you talking? What town are you in today? Where's home?
Speaker 2:I'm from Waterford, where they make the crystal, where they used to make the crystal, the famous. Waterford crystal. That's where I live. Well, I don't live in the city. I live about five miles outside the city in the country.
Speaker 1:Now, Mick, let's go back in time here. What got you? When did you first get into gundogs?
Speaker 2:Sorry, ken, I think we're having trouble again, aren't we?
Speaker 1:I can hear you. Okay, I don't know what's going on. Can you hear me?
Speaker 2:I'm just going to turn it off. Hold on. Mary said she's just going to turn it off and turn it on again for a second. No, I'm not Right. Okay, I can hear you now. Can you hear me, kenneth?
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, yes, no, I'm not Okay, no, right, okay, I can hear you now. Can you hear me, kenneth? Yes, sir, yes, yeah, okay, okay, mick, I was just asking you when did you get started in the gundog business or not business? When did you get started in the gundog sport?
Speaker 2:I should say, I'll tell you, kenneth, from a very early age I've been hunting. I'd say it's from about seven, and in particular, how I started was, uh, there was a guy lived next door to where we lived. I lived in a house in the state and he kept, uh, coursing dogs, you know, hunting hares, okay, so I used to go with him doing that. And then I started ferreting and then, as I got older, I started getting my own little dogs. So that's what I started off hunting, just with terriers, hunting foxes and hunting rabbits and all that gear. Yeah, with terriers With terriers hunting foxes and hunting rabbits and all that gear. Yeah, with terriers With terriers. Yeah, okay, I used to do a bit of digging and all that type of stuff Irish terriers.
Speaker 1:Were there Irish terriers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lurchers and little small dogs Okay For hunting bramble.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, okay. And how were you when you were doing that?
Speaker 2:But I started. I didn't really get into gundogs until I was 16, and then, when I started shooting, Okay. And what kind of dogs were those? Can you hear?
Speaker 1:me Ken. Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I got my first gun when I was 16. And at that time I had a really really good little dog. He was a half cocker, he was a crossbreed, okay, and I had him for about 10 years and I shot some stuff over him.
Speaker 2:And I had him for about 10 years and I shot some stuff over him. But then I didn't really start getting into gundogs until I went to a championship in 1990. It was in Bellinacar and then I saw what Spaniards could do and I kind of got hooked on it. I said I'm going to buy a Spaniel and see can I do this. So that's where it started, really. The first dog I bought I bought it from Tim Dennehy. He was out of a dog that had already won the championship. And again I trained him and I won a novice trial with him and I thought he was the best dog that I'd ever seen. But he wasn't really. I trained him and I won a novice trial with him and I thought he was the best dog that I'd ever seen. But he wasn't really. He was, he was. That's all he was capable of. Winning is a novice trial Okay. So I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from that little dog and then I just progressed and bought more pups and learned as I went along.
Speaker 1:Really, Now Mick were those dogs, springers or cockers, or both Springers, all springers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't get into cockers until about 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:Kenneth, what made you try the cockers out? Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training the retriever. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone would be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next and what to do when problems arise. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom to learn how you can train your retriever.
Speaker 1:I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshened back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of Cornerstone Gundog Academy since 2016 and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I've used it. It's proven and tried and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked. To Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you exactly what happened to me with cockers. I became friendly with Ian Oatenshaw about 12 years ago. There's another story how I got friendly with him and I'll tell you about that story. But I had no intention of buying a cocker because cocker trails were very few here. And I went in and he had bred he had bred that great bitch, madardale Midge. To what dog did he use? I forget the sire, but he asked me to put in the pups into the kennel. So I called all the little pups anyway and there was one little pup that stayed out and I couldn't get him and I anyway I got him anyway but he was away. He was away hunting and he was only eight weeks old. So I said King, I said will you sell me him? And he said I will. So I bought him and he was my first cocker and I made him a champion. I was really delighted with him, good little dog, and I kind of got a little bit hooked on the cockers then.
Speaker 2:And then I had a little dog called Enderwood Cork. I trained him and won an office and won an off and I sold him to Ian. Ian made him up and he turned out to be a very good stud dog and at the minute I have I made up a dog out of. I was second in the Irish Championship with him. This year I ran up a dog out of. I was second in the Irish Championship. This year I ran up for first a little dog called Maladale Jaffa and he was out of Maladale or Shine, and Shine was absolutely top of the pitch and she was out of Maladale Midge as well. John Healy bred them. He's the Enderwood. He has the Enderwood prefix. I'd say you're familiar with that.
Speaker 1:Yes, Are you Kenneth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I bought that dog, yeah, and I made him up this year and I bred him to a bitch then that I have here, that I won with her as well she's out of Cork to Firebug tip-top jack, firebug. That she won the Irish Championship and was third in the British and I think she was she got a COM this year A really, really great bitch. So I have a daughter of hers and I bred her to the Maladale Jaffa dog and I have a really super young dog out of him now. He's 17 months now at the minute, but he's a real, he's a real star, I think. So you're not really.
Speaker 1:You're not a breeder, are you? You just train? Sorry, you, you don't breed, you just train and compete correct? Or do you breed dogs too?
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't breed that many, kenneth. I breed one litter probably every year. Okay, I only breed out of them if they're good. I don't breed out of anything that's not good. I don't keep them. Okay, I don't have big kennels.
Speaker 1:Kenneth Pardon. I'm sorry, can you hear me?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I suppose, look, I probably better off tell you a little bit about myself in the sense that I'm a carpenter and I work as a carpenter full time, and I work as a carpenter full-time and I do my dogs in the evenings and and at weekends. So I always limit. My kennels are limited to six dogs okay, generally maybe three adults and three young young ones coming along, and I'm very selective in the sense that if I don't think they're going to make it.
Speaker 2:I don't keep them Okay. I've always found that the real good ones are good from the day they're born. That's my philosophy that good dogs are good from a very young age. Yes, and most of the ones I've had have all been. I've never had to wait on dogs, you know, to be 12 months old to show me something. They've all showed it at a very, very young age.
Speaker 1:Mick, what do you look at when you see a dog at that young age and you know that it's worth keeping? What are the traits do you look at when you see a dog at that young age and you know that it's worth keeping? What are the traits that you look for in that young dog?
Speaker 2:I kind of lost you a little bit there. I think you asked me what do I look for in him as a youngster? Yes, yeah, I'll tell you what I look for, Kenneth. I like him to be bold. I like him to be bold, I like him to be fast on their feet and I like him to have a bit of style. I like to see a nice back end on him.
Speaker 2:And again, different people train different ways. But all I know is the way I've always trained Kenneth. I introduced him to game very young. You know. I introduced pups and I always say they'll show you. The switch will turn on If you give them a pigeon, or give them a rabbit or you know a dead rabbit and rub it on the ground, or give them a clip pigeon to bring in and lift the pigeon, and pups will show you then what kind of what's in them. I think that's what I think anyway that all the good ones I've had have shown them pigeons and rabbits and they click off then, yes, and when I see that little bit of fire in them and the style and their enthusiasm for it, then I'll say I can train you, and that's what I generally do then. But the ones that show me no interest or it doesn't do anything for them. I generally don't keep them.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, mitch, I was told that you were one maybe the only person that's ever taken a springinger to champion and a Cocker to champion who is? I was told that you were the only person over there in the United Kingdom that's taken a Springer and a Cocker both to the championship. Is that?
Speaker 2:correct. Sorry, can you say that again to me? Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Sorry, Kenneth, say that again to me. I was told that you're the only person over there in the United Kingdom that has taken a Springer Spaniel to the championship and a Cocker Spaniel to the championship.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so, Kenneth. I think there's other guys that have done it. Yeah, there are Not many, but there are some.
Speaker 1:That's still hard to do. Do you still train both breeds, the Cockers and the Springers? Sorry, kenneth, do you still train Cockers and Springers? Go ahead again sorry, do you still train Cockers and springers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the very same. Okay, I train them the same. They're the same dog, aren't they Like? Look, kenneth, at the end of the day, the main thing they have to do is hunt. Yes, so the rest is up to you to train them to retrieve and handle, and all that, isn't it really? Yes, but what you can never put into him? You can't put hunting and drive and pace into him, correct?
Speaker 2:You know, a lot of people mistake pace and drive. There's a phenomenal difference. Drive is drive. You know you get fast dogs but they have no drive.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, drive for game.
Speaker 2:You know, no, what I call real heart in them. They'll run. You know. Know what I call real heart in them, they'll run. You know they'll run. But when the going gets tough and when there's no scent and when the bramble is hard, it's dogs with drive. Then go to the fore Dogs with pace and no drive. They don't. You know, they give up.
Speaker 1:Because you all, when you hunt over there, you're a lot of times what I've seen in a really thick y'all call it bramble, but a really thick grass, yeah, really thick bramble.
Speaker 2:So we need dogs. We need you know, in particular down where I am we need dogs that have a lot of drive and courage, what I call they need courage to face Bramble. And I have to say, the dog I have at the minute, ritex Rio. I ran him at the championship this year and he got absolutely dreadful Bramble and he really impressed me. He just went away and there was nothing in it, but he just really he couldn't have done it any better than he did and he's the same when he comes out into the open. You know he's beautiful to watch in the open as well. But I was really impressed with him because I ran him.
Speaker 2:I didn't run him in many trials. Every trial he's won he's, I've run him and he's nearly won it and then I've. I don't run him again. Once I win and qualify and they're a champion, I don't run him again. Okay and uh. So I've never been really in a really tough Bramble trial with him until I went to the championship this year and then he showed me what he could do. But I've seen him in the Bramble anyway, kenneth, you know, because unless they do the Bramble with me, I can't keep them.
Speaker 1:Now, mick, do you still train both breeds, both the Springers and the cockers, at your place, or do you have only cockers right now?
Speaker 2:No, no, I have springers and cockers. Yeah, I have. At the minute I have three cockers, three springers.
Speaker 1:Which breed do you think is most intelligent?
Speaker 2:Well at the minute. I would say my springer is Really Well at the minute. I would say my Springer is Really the Springer dog I have at the minute is probably one of the most intelligent dogs I've had. But in saying that, kenneth, I honestly believe breeding helps a lot, doesn't it? You know, if you breed up a two really good champions, um, generally that comes out they're brainy. Yes, that's what I find. If you, if you breed off of two really good champions, um, you know, they produce. They produce dogs that are brainy because you can't make them champions unless they have some degree of intelligence.
Speaker 1:True, mick, you kind of explained it to the listeners how the champion, how the trial system works over there. What does it take to make a dog a champion, to get that title?
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, kenneth, what you have to do here, it's it's different than than the UK. What you need in Ireland is you need we do it on a point system. Okay, you, you, you need to win a trial with a four point green star and it has to be graded excellent. So then you get a four point green star and to make up a dog, you need 12 green stars, as they call them. Okay. So you get four for a win, graded excellent, and then you can make them up then on two, second, graded excellence, which is a three point. So that's four, three and three, that's 10. And then you need to say, uh, a third, excellent, which will give them two points. Okay, but a good champion, a good champion generally, kenneth, you make them up with three, three, excellence, you know, okay.
Speaker 1:So three, three, four points with an excellence.
Speaker 2:And the UK, then is you just win two straight trials.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, but do you?
Speaker 2:have to have an excellence in the UK. There's one difference in the Irish system and the UK system is we then have to show the dogs at a registered show in the gundog breed and they check them. Then they check their mouths and they check that the dog has two testicles and and all of that, and their shape is okay, and then you need then to get a point from that like to say that the dog is good, so then you can send off for your championship title.
Speaker 1:Okay, Whereas in the UK you win two trials, you get a.
Speaker 2:You bring them to water and then they're a champion.
Speaker 1:Okay, but you have to have at least three graded excellent or in Ireland there's more to it In Ireland, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting. Let me ask you this, mick. I don't know the answers Are there more dogs that compete in Ireland than in England?
Speaker 2:No, no, uk has far, far more dogs.
Speaker 1:Okay, and far, far more trails.
Speaker 2:Okay, the UK has Sorry, trials, okay the uk has.
Speaker 1:Sorry, when you say the uk are, you can. Are you also including scotland in that mix?
Speaker 2:england, england, scotland, ireland, or sorry, northern ireland, scotland, england and wales. Okay, they would probably have 70 open qualifying stakes. Okay, which is a lot of trials In the north, in the north of Ireland, where I have to go to qualify. Well, I go to England as well. Now I've just started to go to the UK, but there are only four. There's five trials in the north of Ireland to qualify for the British, and then again, if you win the Irish Championship, it qualifies you to run the British Championship.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know, I know in the retriever world they have the IGL. Is there an equivalent of that for Spaniels in the United Kingdom? Is there what, Kenneth? You know how? In the retriever world there's the IGL. Yes, Is there an IGL also for Spaniels?
Speaker 2:Yes, and for Cockers.
Speaker 1:Okay, have you won that? So it's for all breeds. Well, cockers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have a championship for all breeds, pointers and setters the same okay, have you competed at those?
Speaker 1:sorry, have you competed. I've won the British and I've won the Irish. Have you competed at those? Sorry, have you competed at those?
Speaker 2:levels. I've won the British and I've won the Irish. I've won both championships, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've been second three times. Has anyone else won both the British and the Irish championship?
Speaker 2:besides you. Yeah, desi Donnelly won it and Norman Blakeney won it. Yeah, I think there's four guys in Ireland have won it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Which is quite good actually.
Speaker 1:Mick, do you still get to hunt, to go shoot a lot? Do I still hunt?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. Like you know, to make a champion you have to shoot over them, kenneth. So I'm shooting two or three nights a week with them.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, you'll love them.
Speaker 2:Okay, Rabbits are the thing Kenneth Like, completely different than the States. Like most of your springers, it's all birds, isn't it? Yes, sir, your trials are all bird trials. Yes, sir, yes, yeah. Well, in the UK and Scotland there are a number of rabbit trials as well. So the rabbit is invaluable, Kenneth, to train in Spaniards. There's no other thing that will train him like the rabbit.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 2:Because the rabbit gets their head down and their head is constantly down. They never lift their head for scent Okay, they're constantly, their head is always down. They never lift their head for scent Okay, they're constantly, their head is always down. Looking for game, whereas if you run them on birds in particular, and in particular a planted game, they start to lift their head and pull onto the bird, whereas I don't want dogs pulling on, because they can pass here, you know like in a game with rabbits, they can be anywhere, true?
Speaker 2:So yeah, the rabbit is invaluable here. I love the rabbit.
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Speaker 1:Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use it and we are so proud to be sponsored by Purina Dog Food. You know, in the US we hunt rabbits with beagles, with hounds. Yes, yes, for the most part. I used to do that a lot. Right, good sport. Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, do you well, do you go to other shoots and take your dogs and run them for flushing? Do what? Do you go to other shoots and run your dogs to flush birds?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do. In the shooting season I go to a big pheasant shoot Kenneth where I flush birds and pick up birds with them then. So I get a lot of work on birds with them. Nice, yeah, it is nice, really good.
Speaker 1:If you could give anybody, maybe a young person wanting to get into the sport of of field trials, what's the? What's the first piece of advice, or the most important piece of advice you would give a young trainer or a new trainer?
Speaker 2:All I would say is for anybody wanting to get into to to this, to the the trailing world in particular, is to try and buy the best pup they can buy out of the best. That's the start of it all and then try and get advice from somebody that has had a lot of success with dogs. Just speak to them and ask them would they have a look at a dog and maybe give you some guidelines? Like there are a lot of, how would I say, over here now, kenneth, and in the UK lots and lots of trainers, dog trainers, and they're making a good living from it training dogs, but a lot from it training dogs. But a lot of them are training dogs but they've had no success in the trialing world. So unless you've been successful in it, you can't really pass on that knowledge?
Speaker 2:can you Exactly? Yeah, but for a young person getting into it, that's all I could say. Try and buy the best pup you can buy and um, and there's lots of uh stuff on YouTube now to show people training dogs. Isn't there and you know you'll get to start sitting and staying and like, as I say, the first dog you get, you're not going to well. Maybe some people can do it well with their first dog and they have done. I've seen people get one dog but a lot of them fail to come back with another dog. So you can get lucky with one dog but you don't get lucky training lots of champions. You only get that by hard work, really, and putting that time in.
Speaker 1:And how many days a week do you train mate I?
Speaker 2:train five minimum Okay. Yeah, five minimum Year round, yeah, yeah, and in the winter, you, you know, like, if I'm working, which I do, I work, but I try and get home a little bit early and do some, do some work with pigeons, with them, or something you know, kenneth, and if I'm running dogs, I'll put them on the treadmill for for half an hour, okay in the evening, when it's dark.
Speaker 2:In the garage I have a treadmill and I put them on the treadmill each. I give them all a half an hour on it just to keep their fitness up.
Speaker 1:Okay. Do you train at a club or do you train by yourself? Sorry, kenneth. Do you train with a club or do you train by yourself? Sorry.
Speaker 2:Kenneth, do you train with a club or do you train by yourself?
Speaker 1:Wait, now, I've lost you again, have I? Yeah, we're. It's showing a bad connection. Yes, yes, hello.
Speaker 2:Can you hear me now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how about now? Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah, okay, I was just asking do you train at a club or by yourself? All?
Speaker 2:by myself. Okay, yeah, I just train on my own all the time. I don't have anybody near me that trains with me, and then, when come the shooting season, I go on training days with maybe a group of guys okay and I often go over to you know Ian Openshaw, don't you?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, well, I go to him maybe three times and I go shooting with him for two days on the rabbits, okay, yeah, so that helps a lot. I've learned an awful lot from you know, open sean simon dixon kenneth. In the last say, maybe 13 years, they've turned me, I have to say they turned me into a better trainer than I was.
Speaker 1:Yes, it helps being around other trainers, doesn't it? It does, and in particular, good trainers.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah I try to do that as well. Yeah, yeah, you need to train with the best, don't you? To become the best?
Speaker 1:I agree. Now, when is your shooting season over there? When does it start?
Speaker 2:our season starts in September, okay, we can shoot partridge and duck in September, okay. And then pheasant then is from. Partridge and Duck in September, okay. And then Pheasant then is from. We can shoot Pheasant from November on, okay, yeah, we can shoot Rabbits all year round, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, their cast is pissed, so you can shoot them all year round.
Speaker 1:Is the political environment in Ireland? Is it friendly to gundogs and the sport hunting sport? Sorry, Kenneth, Are the politics in ireland? Is it, is it friendly to owning gun dogs and the sport of gun dogs?
Speaker 2:no, not really. No, kenneth. It's all changing, and I think it's changing everywhere, isn't it?
Speaker 1:they're bringing in more and more.
Speaker 2:They're particular in Ireland and in the UK. There's not a lot of young people coming into shooting. Now, kenneth, I think you know, with the internet and Facebook, I think the younger people now have no real interest in the outdoor world.
Speaker 2:As I say, yeah, I think that's right, but that's what I see over here In particular, I think in particular in Ireland. I've seen a dramatic change in it in the last five years. What I see now is a lot of old men in it for all the world. You know, yeah, and that's what. I don't see any young fellas 25 or 30 years of age coming into it. You know they're all older.
Speaker 2:It is sad, but again, kenneth, I will just say this now that trial and now has become a lot more expensive than it did when I started out. When I started out in where we are here, we would have had about six clubs within an 80 mile distance and we had trials Saturday, sunday, saturday Sunday, whereas now we don't have many trials. Now a lot of the clubs are gone because there's no interest in them and trials now are on midweek and a lot of lads can't get time off of work or they have to take a day off of work. And you know the cost of living has gone so high now over here I don't think lads can afford to take days off of work and I think that's really. And as well as that, farming practices have changed here dramatically. Dairy farming has taken over massively, so they've taken a lot of the hedgerows out where the rabbits were and a lot of lads just don't have places to train dogs.
Speaker 1:I'm lucky where I live.
Speaker 2:I have a good spot, you know, on that. I can train away, train away. Well, so I'm lucky, I've got good training.
Speaker 1:Do you have much public land in Ireland that you can train on or hunt on or no? Do we have what? Do you have public land in Ireland that you can hunt on or train on?
Speaker 2:No no public land. No, no, all the land in Ireland is owned by somebody. There's no public land. No, I didn't know that If you go in anywhere, you have to have permission to go in there.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know I learned over there last year, at least in England, that hunting and shooting is an expensive sport, isn't it? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Kenneth, yeah, absolutely really expensive. Now, trolling is not really expensive. You know what? Look the way I look at anything is if you play golf or if you play anything, it's expensive, isn't it? So if you're into shooting and you're into hunting, like it's no different than any other hobby, if you're interested, you'll find the time and you'll find the money. Yeah, that's my philosophy anyway, that's true.
Speaker 1:Because I ran a, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm 60-odd now, kenneth, but when I was 40 and I was running my own business like I ran a contracting business, a carpentry contracting business and I didn't finish until 6 o'clock any evening. But when I came home I went and trained dogs after because I had the interest and I'm probably a very competitive guy anyway, because I think you know when you get into this game you have to be competitive. You know. So when I go to trials now I want to go and I'm going to win. I'm not going to get second. I know you don't win them, but you have to have the training done. And there's a philosophy, isn't there? Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. So if you don't put in the time, you don't get results. You only get results when you've trained hard and your dogs are ready for competition. And I think it's the same in the States. Isn't it Like? Just looking at the successful handlers over there? I know a lot of them are professionals and all that like, but they still have to put the work in.
Speaker 2:professional or amateur, you still have to put the work in yes, yes and a lot of people sorry I don't think a lot of people give those people credit. They, they use this excuse, osher, they're full-time at it. That's what, what they should be doing, but it's not that easy. No, it's not.
Speaker 1:No, no, I'm an amateur trainer and it takes a lot of my time and I spend a lot of weekends training and it's hard, it's very difficult. Plus, I seek advice from a lot of other trainers that I respect and you know I'm always learning, but it takes a lot of time to make a dog at that level and that's what I'm trying to do now. Actually, it takes time, kenneth. Yes.
Speaker 2:But again, kenneth, I think most importantly you have to have the raw material. Yes, you know there's no point in putting loads and loads of work into a dog if they don't have those that champion ingredients in them that will to go every time you take them out. And you know there's some dogs that are moody and I just couldn't keep those. I couldn't work with those type of dogs. Yeah, and I find the dogs now, the dogs that are coming now, they're a lot softer than they used to be. You know there were harder temperaments years ago. But that's not to say that the softer ones are not as good as those ones. They are Every bit as good. But you just have to change your training methods for the soft dog. I don't mind a soft dog once they have plenty of go on them, and sometimes the soft ones are very intelligent anyway.
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Speaker 2:Supply Explain what you mean by that. They have softer temperaments. You know, like years ago what I call the dogs were half really. You know, you could pull their ear and pull them back in and they didn't sulk or anything. But nowadays you can't do that to a lot of the dogs now and I prefer them now because your voice is enough to and they know what it is, whereas the ones years ago, like I mean, I was no good to them, you had to get out after them all the time.
Speaker 2:But again, kenneth, I will just say this I often think it was the way we trained them back then, because nowadays I think I don't give dogs the amount of freedom I used to give them years ago. When I was training dogs years ago we'd lots of rabbits around and I used to let the dogs get out away from me and and they got used to getting away from me and I think, whereas now I don't let the dogs get away from me at all. You know they play, they get their play time and then they're in, but now they hunt close to me all the time, not too close now that you couldn't shoot over them. You know they'll go 10 or 15 yards either side of me, but they're flat across me. They're not out in front of me. Okay, do you understand? Yeah, that they're going flat across me, not going forward, because when they're going forward and there's pheasants running ahead of them.
Speaker 2:They go forward more. Yes, just run on the ground. Yeah, when they're sent running ahead of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're teaching your dogs to quarter right Correct Overback? Yeah, yes. Have you ever trained any other breeds other than springers or cockers? Sorry, have you trained any other breeds besides the springers or the cockers? Sorry, have you trained any other breeds besides the Springers or the Cockers?
Speaker 2:Have I any other breeds besides Springers and Cockers? No, I've never had pointers or setters. I trained a Labrador once, a really good Labrador. He was out of two champions. When I was younger I trained with him. There was a real good friend of mine. He trained Labradors and he was a really, really good man and I bought a pup from him and I trained it. And a really good, fast-going dog and I'll never forget it. But he wasn't really for me, kenneth. You know I liked him but Labradors weren't for me.
Speaker 2:But I went the first day with him. He was only 17 months old and I won a trial on Snipe with him and that was his first day out and I had a lot of offers to buy him that day from different people but I didn't sell him. But I got a phone call from Ian Openshaw that's maybe 27 years ago and he said I heard you're a nice dog and you won with him and I said I did you. He said I'd buy him off you and he made me a good offer. And at that time I had a young dog and you won with him and I said I did you. He said I'd buy him off you and he made me a good offer and at that time I had a young family and blah, blah, blah and it didn't really bother me. So I sold him. He bought him but he didn't keep him. He shifted him on. The dog went to the states anyway and that's all I know. That's Ian's business. Try and buy a good dog and sell him on. Yes, so I was happy what I got him and I'm sure he was happy what he got from him. So I don't know how the dog ended up after and it didn't really bother me. I'll be honest with you. We had no internet that time so you couldn't follow how they did or anything you know.
Speaker 2:So I just moved on then to Springers. I never got any more Labradors, I never got any Pinting Dogs, so I just had Springers, mostly Kenneth. For really I started training dogs in probably 1990. So how long ago was that 90? Really I started Trial and Dogs in probably 1990. So how long ago was that? 90?, 2000?, 20?, 24?, 35 years? Is it that long? Yeah, yeah, that's how long. I took a short break for a while, but maybe two or three years, and then I went back to it again then.
Speaker 2:But I started off with I bought a dog. He was called Bramble Taff and, jesus, he was as hard as nails, and I mean as hard as nails a big, big goey dog. And all my springers are all back to him now, kenneth, every one of them. I kept that line going for that 20 odd years with him. He was a really good stud dog and he bred a bitch bitch. A friend of mine had a bitch and we bred her to him and I got a bitch out of it and she was really the foundation bitch of of all my stuff, a bitch called um poppet rocket, a really top class bitch. I went on to make her an international champion. She was my first international champion. And then had we we mated her again the mother of Puppet Rocket, and I got a dog out of it this time and I made him an international champion. He was Butlerstown buddy, really, really, really good little dog, tough dog, and then a bred poppet and she produced Kirt and she produced Theo and a daughter of hers then produced Sally and that won the British. And she produced Holly Drybert and she produced three international champions. Holly Dryburton, she produced three international champions.
Speaker 2:So when I won the British Championship with Sally, my real good friend, desi Donnelly had her sister and he was second. That year we ran off for first and the following year I didn't run Sally, even though she was only five. I didn't run her and I'd already qualified, and I don't know why I didn't run Sally, even though she was only five. I didn't run her and I'd already qualified and I don't know why I didn't run her. I ran, I ran a daughter of hers and another bitch I had, but I should have run her, I should have ran her and that's. I was really sorry I didn't, but Desi. Desi won it that year with um, her sister. So that was the first time in the history of the British Championship in 90-odd years, that two sisters won the championship.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, so that was a big thing for me. Yeah Well, Mick, how many international champions have you made? Twelve.
Speaker 2:Wow, and I've made up 8 Irish. I've made up 20 champions altogether. That's impressive.
Speaker 1:Has anyone else made that many international champions.
Speaker 2:No, not in Ireland. No, no, I'd say 5 or 6 is the most, maybe 5. Yeah, mick, what? And I bred the bitch and I also trained another championship winner, a bitch called Mountview Heidi. I trained her, I won a novice with her, I won an Open with her and I sold her team Open, shaw, and she won the Championship. So I've had some good dogs, kenneth. In the last in the time that I've been at it, you know really good dogs.
Speaker 2:But the dog I have now at the minute, ray Takes Rio, that I won the Irish Championship with this year, he's an absolute stunning dog, really really stunning dog. I love him. He does the game fairs and he just gives you 100% all the time. Like all those good ones, all the ones I've mentioned, they were all the same as him. They always gave you. They never had bad days, they just. Every day you took them out they were. They always gave you. They never had bad days. Every day you took them out, they were ready and they all won early. They all won early in their careers. None of those dogs took long to make up champions, kenneth. They were all champions at three years old. I never had to go on and wait till they're five or six. They were all made up young.
Speaker 1:Nice Well, Mick, what do you think is the main difference between springers and cockers? If someone was wanting to buy one or the other to hunt with, what would your advice be?
Speaker 2:Just to hunt with After. Even though I never had cockers, I would think a good cocker is an absolute. If I was to give up in the morning, I would. I would take two cockers to shoot over. Yeah, I think they've. Why is that? They've lots of stamina and they don't get punished. They don't get punished in cover as much as springers do. Springers are bigger, far, far bigger. So when they get bramble it takes its toll on them, you know, because they have to push harder and they're bigger. The bramble is cutting them more, whereas the cocker is so low, small, he gets in and he can take a lot more punishment. He doesn't get as much punishment, kenneth, so he's going to last longer. So, again, in saying that it all depends on the terrain that you work like. I hunt in a bramble situation. So if you don't hunt a bramble situation, so if you don't, you, if you don't hunt a bramble situation, probably the springer probably is because he would take more ground and he would take it faster.
Speaker 1:And again, there's no question, a springer has more power than a cocker is that the major difference between the two is just the strength and the size. The strength and the size, kenneth. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, what amazes me more so about the Cockers is for such a little small dog they can get a cock, pheasant, a runner and carry it flat out and bring it into you, no fumbling and a spring or twice, you saw. You can get the same bird and leave it down 10 times, coming back. Whatever it is, I don't understand that's amazing, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:That's interesting yeah, cockers, they just have. There's some little thing in their head, they have a technique and I find all the cockers they can get a wounded bird and just catch them by the wing. You know they can grab them by the wing and they're balanced in their mouth for whatever reason, but yet I never see springers carry them like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mick. Do you think is one breed any more intelligent than the other? Do you think the springer which one's the smartest in your opinion?
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what about Cockers? In my view of training Cockers, there's no forgiving in Cockers. If you upset them, they don't forget it In the training. If you do anything in training that upsets them, they don't forget it. Where springers do? Somebody described them one time as little people they are, and I kind of agree with that. They are little people but look, they have their own little quirks. But I like them. I like a good one, but the bad ones are bad and you know I couldn't. There's some breeds there I just couldn't look at them. You know their tails are stiff and their tails are high and they've yellow eyes and you know that type of thing. I like a dog to look like a dog and I like him to look nice.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, mick, I've heard other experienced trainers that have cockers, that train cockers in the UK and in the States that will say that those cockers will hold a grudge if you upset them. Say that again, kenneth. I've heard from other trainers like you, some experienced guys that have all said that the Cockers will hold a grudge if you upset them.
Speaker 2:No, I've lost you again. Can you hear me at all? Yeah, I can hear you now. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, mick, I was saying. I've heard other trainers, like you, experienced trainers say that Cockers will hold a grudge, correct?
Speaker 2:Absolutely hold a grudge. They don't forget. Kenneth, if you're going to train in Cockers, don't be in bad humor, because if you do anything to them, they don't forget Absolutely. That's my experience of them, you know.
Speaker 1:Do you ever recover from it? Sorry, will they ever recover? Does it kind of ruin them for life, or are they just? How do they act after the fact, after you've hurt their feelings? Well, oh, they sulk.
Speaker 2:They sulk, you might as well just put them back in the car, okay. You know, if you slap them, for maybe if you're sending them on a retrieve and they go before you go and you slap them. For maybe if you're sending them on a retrieve and they go before you go and you slap them and the next morning you say get out, they could just sit there, so you just have to be careful with them. Well, that's good to know. Just don't be in bad humour when you go out training them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay that's good to know yeah, but they are a really good little dog, but again, kenneth, out of the good ones. You know, that's what.
Speaker 1:Olin.
Speaker 2:Shaw always says like the damn line always has to be good, kenneth, line always has to be good, kenneth, their mothers have to be good. It's more, more so in all breeding, I think, you know, with dogs, springers and cockers and all breeds. I think if you look at any of the real top dogs, the real top ones, they all have good mothers.
Speaker 1:You feel like the mother's the most important.
Speaker 2:I do. I do like, look, you put the best to the best. But I genuinely believe that, like Heidi, the mother of Rio, she had only two pups that bitch that I told you she had only two pups that bitch that I told you. Saltino, she had only two pups in her time and she had right takes Rio and right takes Ringo. They were both champions very young and she was a championship winner and Ringo produced this year's championship winner in the British, produced this year's championship winner in the British. So you know, that's what I'm saying to you about good damn lines. And the dog that won the championship out of Ringo was out of another very good bitch, walker's Wrinkle, who has a great damn line as well. So again, we go back to breeding, isn't it? Yes, yeah, absolutely try and get the best of the best and hope for the best well, mick, I know you're busy man and I know it.
Speaker 1:You've probably got a lot to do this evening. It's probably about eight o'clock in the evening over there probably is no, yeah, but um, uh I.
Speaker 2:I just ask you a question. Trials are completely different in the states towers, aren't they?
Speaker 1:you're bird trials yes, sir, I've done. I haven't been to field trials, I've been doing hunt tests and I just really got in, started into that about well, not even a year ago, right, but I've been to a bunch of hunt tests this year and how did you find them?
Speaker 1:you know it was fun like, uh, I enjoyed it. I did the started level with the ukc and with the akC I did the junior level and it was fun for my dogs, fun for me and I haven't been higher than that yet myself, right, so I'm learning but it was fun. It was something to do in offseason. It keeps me sharp and keeps my dogs sharp and they seem to enjoy it and I've made a lot of good friends that way.
Speaker 2:I might get to see a trial in the States.
Speaker 1:yet yeah, you have to come over. Well, listen, it was a pleasure. I'd like to say thanks for asking me on. Oh, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2:I'd love to talk to you more.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you, good luck Thanks. Thank you so much, mick. Good luck Thanks. Thank you so much, mick.
Speaker 2:Good man, I enjoyed it Thanks.
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