Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Dave Bavero - Waterstone Labradors, Breeding and Training British Labs
#42 Dave Bavero opens a window into the nuanced world of British Labs, sharing insights from his 25-year journey with these remarkable gundogs. As the founder of Waterstone Labradors in Bernie, Texas, Dave has created more than just a breeding program – he's established a vital cultural bridge between American hunters and the centuries-old traditions of British and Irish retriever work.
What sets Dave's approach apart is his unwavering commitment to authenticity. Rather than simply importing dogs, he regularly travels to Ireland and the UK, forging relationships with elite trainers and breeders, observing field trials firsthand, and selecting dogs that embody the qualities he values most: calm temperament, natural ability, good structure, and that magical balance of being able to "turn off and turn on" – relaxed at home but dynamite in the field.
The heart of our conversation reveals Dave's distinctive training philosophy, which challenges many conventional American methods. His patient, pressure-free approach emphasizes obedience foundations before retriever work begins. He shares fascinating techniques like using food bowls instead of bumpers for young puppies, extensive place board training, and his commitment to training without electronic collars. "There's a bond between you and your dog that's the most important thing," Dave explains, noting that dogs trained in the traditional British style often display more enthusiasm and style than their heavily-pressured counterparts.
Whether you're considering a British Lab, curious about alternative training methods, or simply fascinated by different gundog traditions, this episode offers valuable perspectives that might transform your approach to dog training. Dave's parting wisdom resonates powerfully: focus on finding a dog that truly fits your lifestyle, invest in consistent training, and prioritize the bond with your canine companion above all else.
Gundog Nation is Proudly Sponsored by Waterstone Labradors.
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I'm Kenneth Witt and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to build a community of people around the world that like to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we want to get our youth involved into the sport of gundogs, whether it be hunting, sport or competition. We want to build a community of people united to preserve our gundog heritage and to be better gundog owners. Tune in to each weekly episode and learn about training, dog health, wellness and nutrition. We will also offer tips for hunting with dogs and for competition, hunt tests, field trials and other dog sports that involve gun dogs. Please go to our website gundognationcom and subscribe to our email list. We will keep you up to form weekly with podcasts that are coming out. We also will be providing newsletters with training tips and health tips for your dog. You can also go to Patreoncom forward, slash GundogNation and become a member. There's different levels of membership on there. Just go check that out.
Speaker 1:Also, we'd like to thank Sean Brock for providing the music for this show. The introduction and the outro is Sean Brock. He played everything on there except the banjo by Scott Vestal and the dobro by Jerry Douglas. Sean is a neighbor of mine from over in Harlan, kentucky. I'm just crossing the mountain in Hyden Kentucky and he's a super talented guy. But most of all, I want you guys to check out the Creakers. They are also from Hyden Kentucky and this is an up-and-coming bluegrass and country band and these guys are hot. They're all over TikTok and YouTube. You will hear these guys because in a year or so they will be on the radio. They are very talented. Their videos are going viral on the net. These boys are family. Two of the lead singers one grew up with my daughters and the other one is my cousin's son, so he's family. But check them out. Check out the Creakers Also. Last but not least, if you want to buy a hat, koozie t-shirt or even gundog supplies, go to shop gundognationcom and you can purchase any of those items.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening. It's a privilege to have people that want to put up with me talking about dogs all the time. I actually enjoy what I do and I'm so glad to have this opportunity, and thank you. Hello, welcome back to gundog nation. This is kenneth wigg, coming to you from fort mcavitt, texas, at the ranch and and I've got a really good friend of mine on here that has a lot of knowledge that I'm going to try to expose to everybody today, and he and I trained together at the Alamo Retriever Club. But he also has a really nice podcast I encourage everyone to listen to that we will talk about on here and has a huge knowledge of British labs. But let's just break into it. I'm going to let Dave introduce himself. Dave Bavaro, tell them who you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, ken, thanks a lot. Yeah, dave Bavaro, I am the owner and founder of Waterstone Labradors and we're located in Bernie, texas. And yeah, I've been at the dog game quite a while. I've had British Labs for a good 25 years plus right now, started this program about 10 years ago I guess, and then it's gotten pretty serious out of here lately and it's been a lot of fun. I've met people all over the world and all over this country and it's been a fun journey and I'm really, really enjoying what I'm doing here.
Speaker 1:Well, Dave, one of the things that I really respect that you do is you don't just blindly import dogs from overseas. You make several trips overseas, you have relationships overseas and and you know what you're buying. You've seen these dogs work. Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, um, yeah, you're right, I mean, um, you can, you can get an import and people will sell you an import, um, but generally speaking, you might not get the best dog because, let's face it, nobody really wants to sell their best dog.
Speaker 2:So I've made a lot of trips over there. I've been to Ireland quite a few times, I've seen field trials, hunted with people, trained with people, and I have a relationship with Matty Lambden, primarily with Tamro's Labradors, and he's kind of my eyes and ears on the ground, so to speak, over there, and I've gotten a lot of my dogs from him or from people that he has been associated with, lot of my dogs from him or from people that he has been associated with. So that's really helped get the dogs that I'm looking for for my program, which you know is the, the classic British or Irish stuff that you're looking for Good drive, calm dogs, relaxed dogs, good looking dogs, let's face it, you know that's that, know that's part of the equation, so yeah, so that's been helpful. And I've also started to build relationships, especially with the podcast that I'm doing now with other people in other countries. So that's kind of opening up the horizons to different things now too.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's another thing, david, I love that you do is you you kind of build a bridge between us and the united kingdom? You are always having guests on there from from, uh, the, from the uk, and, and they're always extremely knowledgeable people that do this at the sport, uh, some full time. Um, dave, I'm always curious when I have people on here. You know we all have our different backgrounds and how we ended up where we are. How did you get into the dog world?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's an interesting story. So I've had dogs for a long time. Hunting was my primary motivation for dogs. I actually started with Vigilas. That was kind of the first gundog I had. I had a few of those.
Speaker 2:I used to live up in the Twin Cities and did a lot of upland hunting out in Western Minnesota, south Dakota, and I saw a Vigila at one of those outdoor sporting shows type thing and I said, well, that's a pretty cool dog and I'd never seen one before, ended up getting some, and then that went well. And then I hunted with a buddy of mine who unfortunately passed away a couple years ago out in North Dakota and he had two labs I can remember they were Brandy and Bailey and you know, after alcohol, right, you know. So kind of the typical thing. But they were good dogs and looking back they probably were not trained the best. You know there were some rock throwing out there to make a splash, to get the dog to go get the duck. But I was.
Speaker 2:I was kind of amazed by like well, that's, that's pretty cool, like the dog goes out there, brings it back and like you know, how else would we get this duck? And I thought it was just kind of the coolest thing. So I started looking in the labs and started ended up with getting some British labs and then for a while I had both and then eventually just kind of settled into the British labs so and really liked what they were all about. I actually got my first British labs from Double T Kennels, from Haynes Floyd when he was running the operation.
Speaker 1:So yeah, now, when you were doing the Vichishlas, I assume that was strictly upland hunting. Hello, this is kenneth whit with gundog nation, and I've got to tell you guys about something that I've gotten hooked on lately. It's folicious. These are gourmet instant faux and ramen bowls that actually taste like the real deal. When I'm out in the field all day and the last thing I want is to settle for bland camp food, folicious is what I go to. It's authentic. The flavor, it's real ingredients. It's ready in just minutes. It's perfect for hunters, fishermen or anyone on the go, and you can get them over 1900 Walmarts nationwide, your local HEB here in Texas, or you can just go online at Foliciouscom. Trust me, once you try it, you'll keep a few stocked in in your bag, in your backpack or for your next adventure.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they would go in the water. It wasn't their favorite thing, especially like hunting in North Dakota and Minnesota and the coal they were not really built for that. But they would do it, they would retrieve, but the labs obviously were much more suited for that.
Speaker 1:I do think the Vigil is such a cool-looking dog. They're beautiful animals, kind of majestic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're very striking and they've got a lot of horsepower, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:They look like they're built for horsepower. Now, dave, do you also? Are you a pro trainer as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. I mean I guess you would say I mean I do train dogs for clients. I do not train dogs for a month and they are almost always all from my, from my puppies that I breed. So I'm very, very niche and I know how to train them. I train them kind of that classic British or Irish way and so people that are interested in that that's really been very popular with people like that's, that's the way I want my dog trained and that's what they're bred for and that's I want you to do that, and I don't know that there's many people here in the U S that are that are doing that.
Speaker 1:Can you hear me? Okay? That end, dave. Yeah, good, yeah, all good here. Yep, can you hear me okay, or you're? Sometimes it's fading out just a little in the picture.
Speaker 2:I get blurry and then get clear yeah, I noticed on you too as well that all of a sudden you'll blur out a little bit okay, I have I don't know if it's this program or internet connection yeah, my connection is good on this end. I'm on my house wi-fi, I don't know, so okay, good okay, well, this should.
Speaker 1:We'll keep that. I think it's gonna be okay. Um, david, I'm always curious to know this when I have guests on here too. So where did you learn to train? Do you like the rest of it? You know, we can just grab every book we can find in seminars. And how did you learn?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So going back, you know to the day of, you know pre-internet, you know books, dvds, vhs. Like a lot of people, I think probably my first experience was Waterdog Right With I think there's a lot of a lot of folks in that camp and I think still the Bible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think to this day it still kind of holds up for for a lot of good concepts, yeah. And so that was kind of my first exposure. And then I did. I've always been interested in a lot of the British training and I would order you know, like back then I would order books, more on British training and more of the traditional things. And then, as Facebook started to come around, started seeing and connecting with some of the trainers over there and seeing what they were doing. I got more and more involved. Even before I was breeding I was talking to people and learning from people over there on what they were doing and how they were doing it and I quickly saw the difference between how it was done here and how it was done there. I quickly recognized that there is a pretty stark difference between the two on how the dogs are trained and the temperament in the dogs.
Speaker 1:Yes, Dave, in your opinion. I mean, you've actually, I think you've probably been into British labs longer than I have. I think I started around 14, actually late 14, early 15. And I kind of got into them accidentally and it was like kind of the first lab as well and that's kind of what happened to you. Right, that was your first experience or ownership of labs were British.
Speaker 2:It was yeah, yep, yep. It was yeah, yep, yep, it definitely was. So I think I got my first British lab in. Let's see, it would have been like 2002, three, something like that. So it's been a while.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what? And you? You are also, I would assume, kind of a I would assume this is not a criticism like a boutique breeder. You don't have this gigantic kennel. You keep a manageable amount of dogs that you can pick and choose and breed on occasion, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, correct. So I do about four to five litters a year. I have I'll do some here. I do have some people that own some of my dogs that will also do breedings. They'll do them for me and they're marketed and sold under the Waterstone brand.
Speaker 2:But they're they're my dogs. They just live with another family. You know, because you can dogs, they just live with another family. Um, you know cause you can. You know you can only have so many dogs, um, and I think it's you know, to give them a good life and hunt and family, um, and people that are interested, and I'm, you know, I'm very selective on who that is.
Speaker 2:Like, I have, uh, my veterinarian owns one that we do it with um, which is great. Um, she knows what she's doing and I don't have to worry about it and she does all the whelping and takes care of the pups. So, so that that works and I just market them and we sell them, and that pup is one of one of my pups and we use one of my studs so that we do some of that. And then I just actually my college roommate he's retiring from teaching and he wanted to do a little of this, so he just got a pup from one of my litters up in Minnesota and we're going to do some of that because it's one of the goals for the kennel is to start doing a little more business up there. I bought a piece of land up in Minnesota and on a lake up there and I'm building kind of a cabin and a spot to get out of the Texas heat so in the summer Nice.
Speaker 1:I hope I've got an invitation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Anytime, it's a lot of good, a lot of good hunting up there in the North. Well, and I was going to ask you about that because I just got invited. It's actually a gentleman I met at the Smith kennel seminar and he's invited me to come up and hunt grouse a couple days in Minnesota. And it works out because I'm going to be hunting in Wisconsin a little bit and south of North Dakota too. So it'll be my first time and I know you've got a lot of experience hunting that north Minnesota right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's been a little while since I've hunted grouse up there, but I used to do a lot of grouse and woodcock hunting. It's fun. It's not easy I mean you're beating the brush and the shots are quick and fast, but it's fun. It's definitely fun. You'll enjoy it. You'll enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Well, I've been told it's difficult yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's for sure you got to be challenging. Most likely you're going to hear them before you see them.
Speaker 1:Dave, you know yes, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I said most likely you're going to hear them before you see them, that's for sure, with the grouse or the woodcock.
Speaker 1:Dave, when you you know when you go overseas and stuff, or or you're looking for a dog for your program, what, what is the? What are the traits that you like to see, or the titles that you like to see in a good gundog for your program?
Speaker 2:yeah. So um Almost everything I have is coming out of British or Irish field trial lines. That's primarily what I'm looking for. But I mean you can see some differences in you know stuff that comes out of this dog or that dog. So you kind of get it, you got to know, and it's as you know. It's a pretty tight knit community and there's not there's not a lot of dogs Like I was talking to someone about this, like you, probably in Ireland. I would guess you're less than 50 field trial champions in Ireland and in England probably less than 150. So it's a pretty select, coveted title and it takes a lot to get there.
Speaker 2:But the main thing that I'm looking for is I want to see that calm, relaxed dog, like I don't want a dog that's like on a spring, you know, kind of like that antsiness or that drive. I want to see the dog that can be completely relaxed and when you say go, is, you know, shot out of the cannon, has some good speed, can cover ground, is stylish, has a good nose, like the nose I think it's one of the things that is not utilized that well in American hunt test is the nose, and you know, if you're looking for a hunting dog, you know, the nose is probably the number one thing you need. So I want to make sure that that's all there. And then let's face it. Look too.
Speaker 2:There's a certain look that I want in a dog. I like more of the like on a dog. I like more of the like on a male. I like more of that bigger, blockier type of head and chest in a dog. And then you know the females. You know kind of that stylish the otter tail to them. So I'm pretty, pretty specific in what I'm looking for.
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Speaker 1:I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs fresh and back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of Cornerstone Gundog Academy since 2016 and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I've used it. It's proven and tried and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom and learn how to train your own retriever. Nice Now. Do you see any vast differences in the dogs that are in Scotland versus Ireland versus England, or are their field trial systems all very similar? I?
Speaker 2:would say they're pretty. Yeah, they're pretty similar. There are some different types. You know there's some different types of trials. You know there's the driven trials and you know the walk-up trials. So there are some differences. I would say, just kind of as a general rule, the irish dogs are probably going to have a little bit more go to them um, because they're um. The cover in ireland is pretty, is pretty rough. You know there's a lot of brambles. You know blackberries um bogs. It's a more severe terrain In England. You know they do a lot of the like the beet fields and the rape and more of the moorland and stuff. So it's not the dogs are the power to it, as is what I've seen.
Speaker 1:And then is is Scotland, is there? Are there any? Have you? Have you been to any in Scotland?
Speaker 2:I have not been to Scotland, I've been just mainly to Ireland and Northern Ireland and I'm actually the plan is to go to England this fall. So I have some invites to go train with a couple trainers over there and I actually have. I have a dog over there right now. I have a female red bitch at a kennel called Black Envoy Gun Dogs and it's a fox red out of Laura Hill's dog there, that Jalistar dog that she has, and you can't ship till they're six months now. So they're keeping her to train and I'll probably have her get to about a year or so so I can get the hips and stuff done before I ship her over. So I'm going to probably go visit back home.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have a female, a fox-red female, out of that dog of Laura.
Speaker 2:Hills. Okay, yeah, that Laura Hills. Okay, yeah, that's right, that red. But I got it from a veterinarian over there. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I really like her. She's train-worthy this morning, you know, and I really like her. I'm very happy with it. I didn't get it from Laura, I got it from a veterinarian over there. Okay, I'm very happy with it. I didn't get it from Laura, I got it from a veterinarian over there. So let's break down into the topic of training. I've seen you and I train at the same clubs a lot and I'm really impressed with what I see in your dog, so you're obviously training very well. Let's just start out with a puppy. You know what's some of the things that you advise people to do with a young pup just starting out. You know, you just bring it home.
Speaker 2:Yep, gotcha. No, I appreciate, appreciate the comments. So first thing I would say is don't rush. That's the biggest thing.
Speaker 2:I think too many people are in a hurry to kind of get going with the pup and you know there's, you know timelines are kind of artificial.
Speaker 2:I think every dog's a little bit different. But kind of in general I like to see for the first six months of their life really it's heavy obedience, you know a lot of healing, like I want that dog, by six months of age, to be able to heal off lead and not doing the, you know the I don't know. I call it like the cha-cha, right where they're, you know doing this kind of stuff back and forth, walking up to the line. Like I don't want to see that, I want to see a smooth, nice heel on a dog. Um, I do a lot of place board work with the dog, so we're really working on the steadiness and making sure that they are, um, you know, understanding that that place is um, a good place and nothing bad happens to them when they're right next to you. And then I don't I don't do really hardly any throwing of bumpers or dummies in the in the early stages of the dog's life.
Speaker 1:Okay, I liked it. And Dave, what do you do? You know how do you get a dog starting? How would you tell me to learn, to teach my dog to?
Speaker 2:heal. It's really not, you know, there's not any kind of rocket science to it, but it's just. I use a slip lead and it is just a simple slip lead correction. So as you're walking, kind of walk in squares, so you're walking, and then when you turn, it's quick to get a little correction on the lead, make your turn. So every time either the dog gets in front or you're going to turn, there's just a quick lead correction. And then you just kind of do it in squares around the yard. And then what I do? I have a, I kind of have a gravel fenced airing yard that I do that. And then once they I can get them solid there, then I start moving to other places. We'll go out in the field, we'll go to home Depot, you know wherever. We just kind of keep changing place. So I do almost every day we do heel, heel drills.
Speaker 1:Because at what point do you yes, I'm sorry, I know we're having like a disconnect a little bit on our, our internet service At what point do you, do you take the leash off on your heel, work Um?
Speaker 2:probably when I know they're like at least nine, 10 months, when I know they're, they're reliable, when I know that dog is not going to leave my side, um, yeah, there's no real hurry. One of the tricks that I learned from, actually, paul O'Brien over in Ireland. He used two leads on the dog. He would use a regular lead and then he'd have another little short slip lead so he'd slip the one off and there was always one little one there and just in case you can grab, the dog thinks it it's off, but there's still one sitting there, so just kind of a small lighter one on there. So, um, I'll do that for a dog that I feel like maybe he's going to test me a little bit, and uh, that that works well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, yeah, and then, like I said, the place board is also really just a foundation to the work I mean I do. Everything starts off that place board and they I don't know what it is about a place board, but once they like it, I mean that thing's just, they love it, like it's just boom, I got to go to that board, I got to go to that board. So all my training starts there. That's also how I teach all the steadiness, work for them, and a lot of I guess a lot of a lot of trainers love to throw things for dogs.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think it's probably the worst thing you can do for a dog, for a young dog, is throw a lot of bumpers or throw a lot of marks. I start them with kind of a memory retrieve, but I don't even in the beginning. I don't even use a bumper, I use a food bowl. So I'll take a food bowl, walk it out, you know, start at like 20 yards, then go 30, then go 40, 50. And all I do is I just put a food bowl and I'll just drop like two or three pieces of kibble in and then walk to the back to the place board and send them and they go out to that bowl, hit that bowl, hit that kibble, and they come running right back to the place board. So you've established that go out and come back. But you're not, you don't have a dog that's messing with, you know, a bumper and having to worry about fixing all that. So, um, that that's how I start them going out and coming back, and that that helps with recall, helps with healing, it helps with everything.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you're doing that, uh, in a straight line, like mowed grass or anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, yeah, just mowed grass to start, yep.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what command, dave, are you given for the send? Uh, I use go back.
Speaker 2:Okay, yep, yep. Dave, are you giving for the send I use? Go back, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, now you bring up another question I want to ask you. I want you to teach me something, or how?
Speaker 2:you do it?
Speaker 1:How do you teach hand signals? Everybody does a little different method. What's your method?
Speaker 2:So I start them with a tennis ball.
Speaker 1:Okay, you do it on a table. Do you do it on the ground or how? How?
Speaker 2:do you do it on the ground? Yeah, so the first thing is to get them to sit on the whistle, and I'll do it a couple of ways. A couple of different ways is sometimes I'll hold, hold the tennis ball, like in my hand, like this, and then get them to focus and look up at you and I blow the whistle beep and I blow the whistle beep and I have that, and then move beep and have that ball like this, and they're focused on that. And then I'll actually do it at a distance too. I might have that dog sit out about 20 yards.
Speaker 2:Blow the whistle, throw the ball at them. Blow the whistle, throw the ball at them, and now they start looking at okay, whistle ball, good, I should turn around and look at you. So we've established that now I can start the hand signals left and right and I do that with place boards. I'll put a place board on the right, place board on the left and you can command back and forth and then one sorry, then one one back behind them as well. So we're doing kind of the the t-drill off of place boards. That's how I start them on a young pup.
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Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I'm going to steal your idea with the food bowl at a distance for a pup. I really like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I learned that from folks. Um, folks over in England taught me that. And, um, it's great, because what's the? What's the thing that the puppy doesn't do well in the beginning is the is the bumper right? They want to play and grab. And now you're. You don't have to worry about that, you're just. You just want to go there and come back and then, once you get that, you can start putting the mechanics of the of the bumper in there. Um, and the other thing I would say about that, and I noticed, um, you just had some gundog nation um fire hose bumpers made. Right, did you get those made?
Speaker 1:I saw those yes, sir, yeah I've, they're actually made in the States.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah. So those, those are the best to train a young dog. You can eliminate a lot of hassle with holding issues and mouthing issues by using those bumpers. I find plastic is terrible for a young dog. They want to. They want to roll and and fumble with it. Young dog, they want to roll and fumble with it. Those fire hose really teach a nice, nice, clean hold and even better than some of the other canvas stuff out there. So that on the young pups, that's all I use. I start with that little one and then we go to the bigger one and once they understand that then you can use about everything. But those are great for the beginning.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm glad you said that. That's how I feel too, and it's not just because I'm selling them, because I used them way before I started selling them, but also what I like about them as opposed to canvas, is, if they get wet, it doesn't hurt them at all because they're made out of fire hose and cork Right, so they really hold up in the water as well as the land yeah, yeah, they're good.
Speaker 2:Like I, it's pretty much all I use. Like I'll use some plastic stuff later on in the water or stuff, but um, but uh, but I, that's pretty much all I use. Um is those fire hose, and that's when, when people buy puppies for me, I have them, them for sale too. They take home. I'm like, just do yourself a favor, start with this and start with the one with no cord on it, so there's nothing for the puppy to mess with, just boom, they come in and they get a good hold and it saves you. What is it? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Well, that definitely.
Speaker 1:Yes, dave, do you ever use scents like pheasant scent or anything on your, on your dummies, your bumpers?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I never, never really got into that. They just seem to figure out what those things smell like and yeah, I don't, I'm not sure what, why, but they, they do so now, how do you introduce your dogs to live birds?
Speaker 2:yeah, um. So that's the other thing. That's probably a little bit different um than some trainers. I rarely ever use a live bird in training. I use um dead birds, um, and most live birds are a lot of a lot of my dogs. The first time they ever saw a live bird was in a, um, an actual hunting situation or um, I do go pick up, um, I go out to joshua creek and I pick up at, like the tower shoots and stuff, and that's a lot of times that's their first exposure to, to actual live birds.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't, I don't like a young puppy chasing a bird, um, it, just it. It's too much out of control for me. You know, I think that's fine with you know like a, you know maybe like a setter or something like that, but, um, but for a, for a lab, I don't like them to have that ability to get in there and and uh, tear up that. So I want, I want to make sure they're good and solid on their, their hold and their delivery with bumpers and then dead birds and then, and then at that point when I feel like, they're not going to, yeah, yeah, I actually met a couple of the guys in there and they were telling me that you come out and pick up birds for them with your dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun At Joshua Creek, yeah. So what's the next step? What's the plans in the future for Waterstone Labradors?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:Anything exciting in the park. Yeah, yeah, some good stuff. Um, I just well, I just got back from Italy, um, which was great Um. I have, uh, some connections over there, so I've been asked to uh judge some um their working tests over there and that's been just a blast. Yeah, just a lot of fun. The people are great. Um, the food and wine is obviously a nice bonus, um, but uh, um got to see some good dog work and um, you know I'm I'm really enjoying that.
Speaker 2:So I'm trying to um do as much of that as possible and you know, as I kind of work from other places, I'd like to try to see if I can't do it in a few other countries as well. Just as kind of a life experience and get to see something new. So I've been doing that. The big thing that I'm working on right now is I'm going to be at the Game Fair in Minnesota, which I have myself and Maddie Lambden is coming over from Ireland, and we have the main stage podium on the first weekend and are doing a seminar there in Ramsey, Minnesota, just outside the Twin Cities. So we have a booth and then we're doing the presentation. It's going to be on British and Irish field trials and training methods. And then we're also going after. In between the weekends we're going up to Northern Minnesota and we're doing a demonstration and seminar at the Arrowhead Retriever Club in Virginia, minnesota. So those are the kind of the two kind of fun, exciting things I have going on right now.
Speaker 1:Nice Heck. Maybe let me know about that, Dave, I wouldn't care to maybe attend that. I'd like to go to that seminar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah. If you're up the. If people have not heard of the game fair in Minnesota. It's modeled after the English game fairs. It is a if you like dogs and hunting, there's probably not a better event in the U? S. It is. Everybody is there, all the sporting goods, equipment, dog food, companies, guns, trainers, and it's six days and there's yeah, it's, yeah, it's a fun event they have. And then they have little competitions like fun competitions for the dogs scurries, retrieving stuff. They're shooting, demonstrations, archery, good, good, good event, really good.
Speaker 1:Nice Six days. That's like a Mardi Gras for hunters, right, I know.
Speaker 2:It definitely is. Yeah, it's Friday, saturday, sunday and then the next weekend.
Speaker 1:And when is that again? Dave, I lost you a second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's August.
Speaker 1:And what's the dates on that?
Speaker 2:It is, let's August, and what's the dates on that? It is, let's see. Let me look at my calendar here. It's the first two weekends in August. It is the 8th, 9th and 10th and 15th, 16th and 17th.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. Yeah, that's something I'd like to be able to make. I don't know if I can, but I might try those for sure. Okay, yeah, will you be there both weekends?
Speaker 2:I'll be there both weekends. Maddie's just there the first weekend, so the presentation is just that. It will do it that first weekend Friday, saturday and Sunday and then I'll have the booth the rest of the time as well.
Speaker 1:Now, do you ever put on private seminars, training seminars?
Speaker 2:I've done a couple in Italy for people, so the clubs will have me. They'll basically sell training days to people that want and I'll do the training for like a small group, like six to eight people, and I will do that here too, Like if people are interested in learning. You know how to train that way. I'm happy to do like private. You know one-on-one or small groups as well. Um, I'm happy to do like private. You know one-on-one or small groups as well.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to do that okay, um, I've got to ask this question now. So when you're in italy, do you speak the language? Uh, I'm getting better, you know, and you're better than me.
Speaker 2:I speak zero yeah, I, I know, um, I'm actually italian descent, so I know some um and uh, they, they speak enough english generally, they, they provide me with a translator, and uh, that that helps too as well.
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Speaker 1:We're proud to have Migra Ammunition as a sponsor for Gun Dog Nation. You know it's interesting. I get my Doberman I still do protection work and he's from Italian lines. He was born in the States and I go to a seminar annually by a guy that comes I don't know why I can't think of his name right this second, but he's from Italy and he comes over and puts on a seminar for a whole like four or five days and I went last year. It was really good.
Speaker 2:But a lot of good dogs over there. Yeah, there is yeah, it's a um, a very much a dog culture there. Um, they bring their dogs everywhere. I mean you'll see dogs in supermarkets, restaurants, you know, they're everywhere, they're everywhere I've never been.
Speaker 1:That's on my bucket list. I need to try to do that. But I am going to get to go to the IGL this year in Scotland because I've been told that's it's at a beautiful place yeah, that's. That's on my list you know, last year I went, have you? Have you not gone yet to IGL?
Speaker 2:I have not yeah, I have not gone. One of these years I'm going to go. But now you've been to a lot of field trials there, correct? In Ireland and Northern Ireland I have. So this year I'm hoping to go to one, go to a couple in England.
Speaker 1:That's kind of the plan, if we can make it work. David, I want to ask you two questions. One what's your advice to our listeners who may be in the market for a pup?
Speaker 2:What's the best advice you'd give them? Yeah, so what I would recommend is get a dog that fits you, right. So, cause, I get, I get calls, you know, almost every day or an email, and a lot of them start with I had a dog like this and I don't want a dog like that again, and typically what I'm seeing is they're like I had an American field trial dog, okay, and it was just too much dog. So that's that's the advice. If you're, you know, if you want to run field trials, american field trials, get an American field trial dog.
Speaker 2:But if you, if you want a hunting dog or you know cause, let's face it, most guys that hunt, you know they're not hunting a hundred days a year, Right? So um, that dog, you need a livable dog, Like you need a dog that's quiet, right, you need a dog that's not going to eat your couch, you know, if you don't exercise it and I guess that's the popularity of the British and the Irish stuff is it has that ability to turn off and turn on and that that's that's I would tell you. That's almost every call I get is like I don't, I don't, that that was too much dog I don't want, and it's like, you know, it's like cars, right, like a Ferrari is a fine machine, right, but you're not, not. You're not giving a Ferrari to a first time person driving a car. Right, you know you might be better off with an F-150. Right, so get. Get what fits what you want to do.
Speaker 2:And you know, if you're a duck hunter, get a lab or a Chesapeake. Don't, don't get a German short hair. You know. You know it just doesn't you're going to have problems. Get the right dog for what you want to do.
Speaker 1:Like there's. No, I don't think there's any bad dogs, but there's definitely bad fits. I agree that's great advice. Yeah, now Dave, also sport new to hunting and they're wanting to maybe train their own dog Because there's no better. I mean, pro trainers are great. I've got great pro training friends that will have more experience in their pinky than my whole body, but there's no better satisfaction than training your own dog. Now, that being said, what's your most important to you? What's the most important advice you would give someone who's getting ready to start out and train their own dog?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if you're going to take on training your dog, the biggest thing is consistency, and that's where I see people fail is, and even people that send dogs away for training, like you could spend a whole bunch of money and if you get that dog back and do nothing with it the dog you're going to have problems, right? So I think if you can train your own dog, you're going to have a better bond and you know a good outcome. But just, you know, follow a program whatever, whatever program that is and there's a lot of good stuff out there but again, make sure whatever program you're following is designed for what you want to do. Like, if you're not interested in running hunt tests, don't, don't knock yourself out with all the hunt test stuff, cause there's a lot of unnecessary things in hunt test training that you don't need for, um, a hunting dog. Right, there's a lot of, there's a lot of unnecessary technical and pressure things that you have to put on your dog. Um, that it's just not necessary. If you're looking for a nice companion that can go pick up a duck or find a pheasant for you and be a well-behaved dog, spend that time on the obedience, like I. Really that's the part I think people really kind of glance over because it's not as sexy as like getting to the retriever part, so they kind of oh of will be good with that.
Speaker 2:And then it just you just have so many problems from a dog that can't heal, they can't sit, that you know all the, all the obedient stuff, and you see it. I mean you go to hunt tests. You see a lot of that nonsense that goes on, right. I mean you see dogs that you know pull their owners on two legs up to the line, right, you see it. Right, that dog, those dogs are not ready to run a hunt test, right? So go back and just get the obedience down and just to kind of go back a little bit, like when I go to Italy or Ireland or other countries like that, those dogs are so well-beh like, so well behaved.
Speaker 2:I was looking through some of my pictures and there's a picture of the training class and I'm talking and there's some people running some drills behind me and there's probably 10, 12 dogs and they're all just laying down in front of their owners, no leash, just just sitting down, laying. They're just completely relaxed because they've been, they've been obedience trained and almost every dog over there goes through a very strict obedience before they ever go into the to the test mode. So I would, I would say, way more emphasis on that. You'd be a lot better off and it's just easier. This is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be stressful, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and I could actually have been guilty. I actually got a dog that you know. I got it when it was older and took it to hunt tests and it was american it's. I have that dog. It's american field trial bred and boy he was. I had to really just go back and work on obedience because he wasn't ready and it you're right, it takes the stress out. When you've got an obedient dog and you can just go anywhere with it and you're not worried about it breaking or going crazy. There's something, there's a lot to be said for having that. And I see your dogs out and they're always well-behaved and always. Dave, it's kind of your trademark. You've got a great, really nice van, like a high ceiling van and your dogs are air conditioned and you've got them all fixed up in there. It's a pretty nice rig, thanks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the van. A lot of people in the beginning were like, ah. Then now they're like, oh, that's pretty good, that works good and it does, it really does work good.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt, and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply. Based in Alabama, retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff made in America. Their leashes are, and they source them locally. They have anything you want. Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply no, I like that, so I guess. Another thing, dave, let's touch on this too.
Speaker 2:Nutrition.
Speaker 1:How important is that to you and your program nutrition?
Speaker 2:How important is that to you and your program? I think it's super important. A good dog food to keep your dogs in prime healthy condition, I think, is great. I've been lucky. My dogs have been healthy.
Speaker 2:I, like you, know there's certain things I like in a food and there's certain things that I don't like in a food. I would say if I had the ability or access to just raw food, that's what I would do. But when you're feeding a lot of dogs it's expensive and kind of hard to deal with. I do supplement with raw. Especially on the pregnant and nursing dogs I do feed raw food. So right now I'm feeding a team dog is what I feed and they have a raw line and I supplement that in in and I like that.
Speaker 2:But I can tell you like over in Ireland where Maddie Landon is, he feeds pretty much all. He feeds a little bit of kibble but he feeds a lot of raw. He feeds venison and he feeds beef and a lot of tripe is what he feeds. He has access to getting that in bulk and has a walk-in cooler and can manage it and his dog's phenomenal, phenomenal shape. No cancers, no, nothing. There's a lot of anything processed right, with everything going on right now, especially with the, the maha thing, there's a lot more emphasis on process and things that are not good for you. Well, I mean, that's the same thing in dog food. Right, it's this, it's the same.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah yes, and you know, one of these days on on my show I'd like to get a veterinarian or someone here to talk about that the rise in dog and cancer in dogs and what's causing it, you know, but it's an alarming rate. I talk to so many people who are losing dogs at a young age to cancer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had this discussion with some folks. It seems to be. I would guess it's food and environmental related, like herbicides, whether that's agriculture or just stuff on lawns, probably is a factor causes inflammation in the dog. You know, uh, certain things a lot of the grains, corn, things like that where you have a lot of blood sugar spikes, I think is a contributing factor to it. Um, and you know so the you know there's a lot of good foods out there, but I think you know the better food that you can feed the you know, regardless of the cost, um, the better off you're going to be.
Speaker 1:Okay, dave, I want to touch on one last thing. This is probably I'll save the best for last, but you know I think it's our listeners get to hear people in here who use e-callers. But you know you are a person and there's several folks like you in the British world of training that never used an e-collar on your dog. I know you had a really good podcast people should listen to about that. With this lady on there, you can talk about that, but just give us your philosophy and pressure and why.
Speaker 2:Okay, got you, so I'll kind of back in the day I did use an e-collar way back, but then when I started to learn how to train a dog, I didn't see the need for the e-collar, and I'll give you a couple of examples. Is there's a bond, the bond between you and your dog, I think is the most important thing that you can have, and the e-collar is I don't know. You see a lot of stuff positive e-collar Getting shocked is not positive. Positive e -collar like it, getting shocked is not positive. Let's just face it Like you know. Let's, whether whether you shock a dog or whack it in the ass with a stick, um, that's not, that's not positive. So anything, anything close to you, they're going to associate it with, with you and and you can see it like you can you can see body language on a dog that's trained with an e-collar versus not an e-collar. And when I started seeing dogs overseas that could do basically the same thing that you could do over here, but with much more style and enthusiasm, I'm like why? Why would I want to do that? So I started trying not to and was able to do it. It takes a little bit longer and you know there's some things and I'll touch on it a little bit because I think the biggest issue with the e-collar that I see is breeding Okay and so if you have a guy that's using an e-collar, that I see is breeding Okay and so it.
Speaker 2:If you have a guy that's using an e-collar to train his gun dog and you know if you're, if you're somebody is careful with it and they're not putting a lot of pressure on it, I think you're probably not going to have a bad outcome. But you know, and I know you've seen dogs lit up and it's really easy for the trainer that's frustrated to you know to turn that sucker up and and and blast them and that's just. I don't know. I just don't want to do that to a dog Like I just like they're your buddy and I like if they supposed to go left and they went right. You know we will work that out. So I just I think there's just too much temptation and not good use of the collar by a lot of people. I mean there's a lot of pros, I think, that know how to use it correctly, but I don't think, even like I don't see the need to like use any collar to teach a dog to sit or heel or or pick up a bumper. Like it's. Just to me it seems like dog to sit or heel or or pick up a bumper. Like it's just to me it seems like it's almost laziness, like, just like, use your hands, use a leash, you know, create that bond with your dog.
Speaker 2:But back back to the breeding part of it is, and here, here's where I think the, the kind of the, the can of the worms or the or, as my one of my friends says, is the genie is out of the bottle and you're not putting it back in Cause. Let's face it, there's a lot of dogs that come this way from overseas. There's virtually none that go the other way. You know the people in Europe and stuff. They're not importing dogs from the U? S and one of the reasons is is so if you have a breeding program and like I have, where you're really looking at genetics and natural ability of a dog, versus a dog that got titles because they had enough electricity to get it done, that's not genetics, okay.
Speaker 2:So the next guy that gets that dog, he doesn't know what he has, right, that it could be he not be, might not be able to train that dog the way that pro did with it. So how long has the e-collar been? Around 50 years. So 50 years of pressure, right, and selecting the dog that could take the pressure and take the pressure, and just doing that you get. You get a different dog than you get over there. So that's, that's kind of my main reason.
Speaker 2:So I'm just like I, I it's not in my breeding program and I don't want to. I don't want to take british dogs, bring them over here and make them into american dogs. I'm not interested in that. I want to keep it the same because that's what I, that's what I fell in love with and what I like. So I don't, I don't use it. And you know there are some reasons. I mean, you know there are dogs that maybe you can say by their they chase deer or something, and there's no other way to stop that sucker. You know, maybe that's a good reason, or a snake training or something like that. So, um, I'm not opposed to all of it, but I think, like I said, I think there's a lot of misuse of it. So, um, I don't know, just for me, I just I got away with it and I'm I'm happy with the results of what I see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I like that and, and you know you know, like you, I've been overseas and seen these dogs do amazing things. That's never had a collar on, so it's, it shows you and it, I think, just like you said, it just takes more time, just takes more patience and more consistency in your obedience training. But no, well, dave, that that's, that's really good. I like that. You know, it's interesting. I've been around you some at our training club but today I got to realize you've got way more knowledge than I even thought you had and I knew you were a smart dog guy. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure getting you on here and peeling it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I enjoyed it and I'm happy to talk about really anything anytime. I love talking dogs and that's one thing I can tell you. If people call me, I'll spend time with you, whether you buy a puppy or not buy a puppy, if I can help you out. I want to see people get good dogs right. I want to see, I want people have a good experience and enjoy them, because there's really there's true enjoyment in getting a good dog right. It's you can see it in, you know, whether it's just a family pet, um, or a hunting dog or whatever you're going to do with the dog, people, just it brings such joy to people and they just love it and it's so fun to hear, like the comments, like we love the dog, like just like just, you know it's amazing and, and you know there's all types of people that buy the dogs right, there's serious hunters, there's people that just want a good companion, and so, and the nice thing about the the dogs right, there's serious hunters, there's people that just want a good companion. So, um, and the nice thing about the some of these dogs is they can really do just about anything. I mean, you can train. You can train these dogs for um, you know set work, you know hunting shed.
Speaker 2:Um, one of, uh, uh, one of my dogs, um, has been very active in the search and rescue out in Kerrville. It's a year and a half old pup and has found 11 victims out on the river, and so it's pretty cool to see how smart these dogs are and what you can do with them. And that's my point with the genetics like genetics overtake every other thing that you can possibly do with a dog Like you have to have that in place. To get a proper trained dog, you have to have the good breeding or it doesn't matter how good a trainer you are, you're going to have problems. So that's really my motivation and to keep it true, it's been the same over there for a couple hundred years and I don't want to change that. I want to keep going with that and you know I'm just looking for. You know, obviously there's some that are better than others, but it's all pretty good stuff. You just have to kind of find what you personally like and what you're looking to do there.
Speaker 1:No, I like that. Well, Dave, I think you and I could probably do several episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, I'm happy to do whatever you like.
Speaker 1:And I definitely think that we need to have a second follow-up. Um, but hey, I know, I know you're busy and I've we've been trying to get together with our schedules and uh, and then you were gone a little bit there and so so glad that you take your time out of your day to be on my podcast and tell everyone again how they find the Waterstone Lab podcast. Your website.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so on Facebook and Instagram, waterstone Labradors. I have the website waterstonelabradorscom. The podcast is called the Global Retriever Podcast and I think we have 20-something episodes at this point. It's on Spotify and Apple and all the stuff that's out there. So if you search for Global Retriever it'll come up. If anybody has any questions, send me an email, Call me. Happy to talk to you. You, um, you know any questions? Training pups, whatever. Love, uh, love, love talking to people that love to talk about dogs all right.
Speaker 1:Well, dave. Thank you, and again, I'm a fan of your podcast. I always. I don't know that I've ever missed an episode since I since I found it and I encourage everyone to check it out because it's very interesting, especially anyone that's interested in British labs, british style training. It's definitely a go-to web, go-to podcast.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Thank you very much, ken, and hopefully, if you get the back this way here soon and one of the club things, we club things, we can do some training or hang out, but I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our YouTube channel to check out patreoncom forward slash gundognation. For $10 a month you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly, we'll do a monthly forum, an open forum, where you can ask me anything gun dog related and we'll learn from each other in the community. Should be a lot of fun each month. We will do that, so check it out Patreoncom forward slash Gun Dog Nation.