Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Jonathan Holland - What Makes A Great Boykin: Bloodlines, Balance, And The Will To Retrieve
#59 Want a Boykin that actually loves to retrieve and holds up under pressure? We sit down with Alabama trainer-breeder Jonathan Holland of Tomahawk Kennels to unpack what separates a flashy social clip from a reliable, confident gun dog. Jonathan cuts through the hype with hard-won insight on bloodlines, water work, and day-to-day reps that turn potential into performance.
We start with the Boykin boom: how social media raised awareness, why prices range wildly, and what “elite” really means in a pedigree. Jonathan spotlights the Brandywine program and explains how true performance breeding comes from years of selecting for birdiness, water attitude, structure, and titles earned in real work. From there, we dig into the spaniel-versus-retriever gap. A Boykin’s last name is Spaniel, and training must respect that DNA. He shows how timing and balance matter more than bravado, why too much pressure kills confidence fast, and how marker training with a vocal “yes” builds clarity before formal drills demand precision.
Water work becomes the crucible. Jonathan designed narrow ponds and re-entry lines to teach soft de-cheating and to stack short swims for far more quality reps. He explains why a dog that “loves” lake splashes may still crumble on formal lines, cheaty banks, or no-go moments. Expect fails at hunt tests built for labs; use them as fuel to refine setups, improve whistle timing, and make fewer mistakes. We also talk about expanding into labs and goldens for bigger games, while still pushing Boykin consistency through intentional pairings and smarter foundations. The throughline is simple: keep it fun, be fair, and design training to make the right choice the easy choice.
If you’re serious about Boykins, retriever training, or just want better sessions with less pressure and more progress, this one’s packed with practical detail you can use today. Subscribe, share with a training buddy, and leave a review telling us your go-to water drill and why it works.
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I'm Kenneth Witt and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to build a community of people around the world that like to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we want to get our youth involved into the sport of gun dogs, whether it be hunting, sport, or competition. We want to build a community of people united to preserve our gun dog heritage and to be better gun dog owners. Tune in to each weekly episode and learn about training, dog health, wellness, and nutrition. We will also offer tips for hunting with dogs and for competition, uh, hunt tests, field trials, and other dog sports that involve gun dogs. Please go to our website, gundognation.com, and subscribe to our email list. We will keep you up for them weekly with podcasts that are coming out. We also will be providing newsletters with training tips and health tips for your dog. You can also go to patreon.com forward slash gundognation and become a member. There's different levels of membership on there. Just go check that out. Also, we'd like to thank Sean Brock for providing the music for this show. The introduction and the outro is Sean Brock. He played everything on there except the banjo by Scott Vest on the Dope Road by Jerry Douglas. Sean is a neighbor of mine from over in Harlan, Kentucky. I'm just across the mountain in Hyden, Kentucky, and he's a super talented guy. But most of all, I want you guys to check out the Creakers. They are also from Hyden, Kentucky, and this is an up-and-coming bluegrass and country band. And these guys are hot. They're all over TikTok and YouTube. You will hear these guys because in a year or so that they will be on the radio. They are very talented. Their videos are going viral on the net. These boys are family. Two of the lead singers, one drew up with my daughters, and the other one is my cousin's son. So he's family. But check them out. Check out the Creakers. Also, last but not least, if you want to buy a hat, koozie, t-shirt, or even gun dog supplies, go to shopgundognation.com and you can purchase any of those items. Thank you so much for listening. It's a privilege to have people that want to put up with me talking about dogs all the time. I actually enjoy what I do, and I'm so glad to have this opportunity. And thank you. Hello, welcome back to Gundog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt with the Gundog Nation podcast coming to you from McFort McCavitt, Texas at the ranch. I've had a lot of requests from listeners about Boykin Spaniels, and I was talking around. I actually was recommended to several different people referred me to one person. He's down in Alabama, just south of the Tennessee border there. And I reached out to Mr. Jonathan Holland. Jonathan, introduce yourself a little bit and tell everybody who you are and what you do.
SPEAKER_00:My name is Jonathan Holland. We're located here in Athens, Alabama. My kennel name is Tomahawk Kennels, and we train all retrievers, but we specialize in in the boycan spaniel.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. And do you also breed boykins?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, sir. We do. We've actually got two litters coming up. We confirmed them uh last Friday, uh June. If anybody, if you follow me very much, you know about my girl June. That's my sweetheart. And uh we've got her bred to uh Tim Boyce's dog named Sailor. And uh we've been trying to do that for two years now. We find we finally got it done, got that confirmed, so we're excited about that one. And then uh my dog Chief, uh, if you know Boykin Spaniels, you know, there's two Chiefs. There's uh the Grand Champion Chief, St. Thomas Chief, and then there's my chief, uh, Chief Holland. And uh we've got him bred to uh a female of mine named Sky, and uh she's a real nice female. She's got her season title, and uh she's got two finished passes, and uh we confirmed that one Friday also. So we got two two pretty good litters coming up, should be ready to go home right around right before Thanksgiving, right around that time frame.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Jonathan, you I'm I'm gonna make a statement and see what your opinion is. Like, you know, 10, 12, up to 15 years ago, you mentioned a boy King Spaniel. Most people didn't know what that was. It seems now that they're really popular. Does that seem to be accurate?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, sir. Um I think for a long time, you know, they were just on the East Coast and around South Carolina for the most part. And um, you know, when I found out about them, I was a kid, and uh we didn't, you know, back then we didn't have internet or nothing like that. We had the Ducks Unlimited magazine, and you know, they've always Ducks Unlimited has always put the retrievers out there and had their they would have their list of one through five and all that, and uh, you know, the Boy Conspanian was usually on there, so that so that I'd known about them my whole life. Um but I but I'm with you. I don't think they've really um taken off as far as their popularity. Uh kind of I think it kind of came along with social media really is what's what's put them out there more than anything.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I think you're right. And it's you know, Jonathan, I mean it's crazy now. I I I know and you're a breeder, you know this much more than I do, but the price of them, they've seemed to get pretty, pretty expensive, you know, but just because of popularity and and there's the demand almost seems to exceed the supply. Is that what you find?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I could go a couple different ways with that. Uh they are very popular, um and they are in high demand. Um and like you said, the prices are all over the board. Um to get the to get the really top bred, um, highly titled dogs that are generation after generation in the pedigree. And the ones of us that are training boykins, there's certain lines that are that are red hot that are really doing doing big things. To get those, you're gonna have to pay for them and kind of know somebody really or get be on a list and and be working with somebody. Um I mean everybody out there is gonna tell you they got they got a hunting line of boycotting spaniels, they they come from grand champions and all this, but um I've been training them. I I opened my kennel up for the public in uh 2021. So me and uh me and a buddy of mine was talking about this the other night when exactly I was pro. I guess around 2020 or 2021 is when I officially turned pro, um, which just means you're just taking money for training dogs.
SPEAKER_01:Um and uh I forgot where I was going with that. What was the question? Well, yeah, hey, believe me, that happens to me too, Jonathan. Don't worry about that at all. You we were just talking about the popularity of boykins and how the price has gone up and you you'll pay more for certain lines.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Sir, everybody so you know, with training as as many as I have, and then talking with a couple of other buddies of mine that that train a lot of boykins, primarily boykins, I mean, we we know which lines are are good and which crosses, but I think a lot of people are are technically breeders. I mean, um it doesn't take much to breed a dog, you just put a male and a female together. But to get these good breedings, really the trainers or the breeders that really have a lot of input with the training of the dogs, the when you start looking at the qualities and characteristics of this dog and that dog and what you're trying to get out of it, um, that's where some of these really, really good dogs are coming from. Um Brandywine Kennels, uh Phil and Karen Henchman up in Indiana, I mean, they they are the elite boycotting breeder when it comes to performance. I mean, they feel as Phil and Karen, they've taken their time over the years and they didn't just breed any dog that came along. I mean, they trained them, they titled them, they hunted them, and they picked the ones that they wanted to pair together. But the way Phil did it is he knew, you know, which dogs uh needed to be more watery, which dogs needed to be more birdie, which dogs needed to, you know, needed more legs on them, which dog, you know, he put all that together and and it showed, I mean, when you look at his lines, those Brandywine, and then my dog June come from from Phil and Karen. Um, when you look at those lines, I mean, the the reason why those dogs are so good is all the effort they put into them. And I mean that that took years and years and years of of very special thought, and um, you know, they need to be commended for what they've done for the Boykin Spaniel. That as far as performance lines go, I mean, they they are it. They've they're the ones that's that's done it for the Boykin Spaniel.
SPEAKER_01:You know, Jonathan, I actually I went up there in Indiana back probably uh probably either winter twenty sixteen or spring twenty seventeen and picked up a pup for my friend. Um and you're right, that they they were the even back then, that's you know, what that's been nine years ago, that was the they were the you know, the starship for the boycan. Um and what I've kind of seen, it's just me now being observing. I've I can't my my opinion is just my opinion, right? I I I'm not on Boykins. But what I've seen in the last ten to twelve years again, it seemed like years ago the boykins were kind of inconsistent, like you could have a litter and have two pups or t or one or two pups that's really good hunting dogs, and a couple more that weren't so much, but now it seems like I'm seeing more and more consistent, really good boykins. Does that seem about right?
SPEAKER_00:What I'm seeing, um, then this is a topic that comes up a lot. Um boykins are very male and female specific when it comes to training puppies. Um this is and this is my opinion, but it's my theory of of what I've experienced with training. And I've got several litters with with males and females out of the same litter uh in the kennel now, but in the past few years I've had them in there, and the females are just behind maturing-wise. Um with the exception of of of a few, very few, they're they're just behind. And um the male the males just seem to come on stronger. And I think historically and statistically, the males are are w when you look at that performance side of the boykins, you see the males up there a lot more than you see the females. I think in labs and and different breeds, um, that may not you know, you may not it may not be that drastic of a difference, but with the with a boycan spaniel, I with my uh uh experience and with what I've seen with it, the males are are just they mature and they're just better than the females. So I think that's part of the equation of of the of what you're talking about. But another thing I think is um I think people are hanging in there with them longer. I think the training techniques, people have really started dialing into to training a boycan spaniel. Um and not just boykins, but uh across the board, like there's a lot of good information out there now that wasn't there 10 or 15 years ago. You know, when I first started this, you know, you had some of the field trial stuff, uh the cassette tapes and stuff like that that was out and magazines and and books, and then um, but you didn't have a lot of these newer uh training programs that have come along, and you didn't see all the the seminars kind of that you see now. And you know, when I first started, like Freddie King had the Meat Dog series for free on YouTube, and he was just getting the retriever trainer stuff up and going. Um, you know, when I got chief, and and then from there, from what he's done, there's been a lot of other people that's put out programs and put out good information and just social media in general. I mean, just trainers that are not necessarily trying to be teachers, but have made some videos and put them on YouTube or, you know, made videos and put them on their TikToks or whatever. And you know, that if you watch, I'm all the time like buying different materials and and and studying and researching, and especially if I've got a dog having a problem, I'll kind of try to wrap my brain around what's going on with that. And um, you know, it what you might watch somebody do something, and then that might not be exactly what you want to do, but it might it might in your brain it might spark something like, oh, that's that would work. I could kind of twist this and fix that dog that way, or try, you know, try that technique. And so I think the training has gotten a lot better. Um and I think a lot of people um or at least want to put a started title on their females before they breed them. And in the lab world or the regular retriever world, a started title means absolutely nothing to most people. I mean, it's it's a fun intro gateway to getting started into the hunt test game, but to most people it they they don't put a whole lot of weight on it. And with the boykin spaniel, uh started dog is a pretty nice dog. It's had some training, it's and it shows that it has some drive because all boykin spaniels can't be started dogs. And so I think by doing that with the females, that's gotten some other, that's gotten people hooked into it. We're like, well, we've got her started now. Let's let's push and let's get her seasoned. Let's push and see if we can get her finished. And I so I think that's that's made a lot of it better as well. So I think it's kind of a combination of things that's that's made them better over the years when you when you kind of start looking at it.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, this is Kenneth Whipp with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training a retriever. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone will be proud to have when they're blind. Learn where to start, what to do next, and what to do when problems arise. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com to learn how you can train your retriever. I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs fresh and back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribe member of Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy since 2016, and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I I've used it, it's proven and tried, and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com and learn how to train your own retriever. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt, and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply, based in Alabama. Retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit Retriever Training Supply.com to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leases I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leases are and they source them locally. They have anything you want. Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever training supply. Jonathan, that actually makes a lot of sense, man. I I agree with you. I think I think you're right. I think probably, you know, people also maybe learn how to train them differently because I've got a cocker here at the ranch, and train a cocker spaniel and train a Labrador Retriever is two separate, completely different things. And I've never trained a boy can, but I suspect that's the case there too.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, listen what you just said. A Labrador retriever, his last name is retriever. A boykin spaniel, his last name is Spaniel. He ain't he wasn't built by God to be a retriever. We don't even really know what they are or how much of each blood of what breeds built them up and all that. If you go in my kennel right now, you got some that are tall and long and look like retrievers, and you got some that are 20 pounds and squatted and they look like spaniels, and then you got everything in between. So we really don't know, but you know, a spaniel's DNA is he's built, he's not really a loyal dog, you know. He's kicked out of the truck and he's meant to quarter a field and hunt on his own and flush birds. He don't need you to to hunt with him. A retriever needs you to hunt with him because you got to shoot something or throw something for him to bring it back to you. And so, you know, just just by that alone is is a totally different, you know, genetic makeup of what we're working with.
SPEAKER_01:Well said, I like that. I'll have to I'm gonna steal that line from you. Uh man, no, listen, so uh Jonathan, obviously, did did you grow up with hunting dogs? Uh, when did you start uh hunting with dogs, I guess, would be the question.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't uh I grew up, my friend, his dad uh has always trained dogs and still trains dogs, and um and I grew up hunting with him and and other people that had dogs, but I I never did was able to to afford one or was in a you know position when I was younger to have one. Um and then I was doing um when I was a firefighter, uh let's see, Chiefs about eight and a half now, so this was probably about ten years ago. Um I was out one winter and I was uh just hunting by myself a whole lot that out at the club. There wasn't many people there during the week. And I was out there by myself and I was shooting these ducks and I was sweating and waddling around in the mud, and I was like, you know what? Not only do I want a retriever, you know, to get these birds, but I'd like to have one, you know, out here with me, you know, to as a companion while I'm out here hunting, you know, and just kind of start that kick that journey off. And I I remember sitting, I remember what pit I was in, where I was at, and every everything the day that it came, it just kind of this moment came to me. And uh I reflected back to my childhood and I said, I always wanted one of those booking spaniels. I said, that's what I'm fixing to research and get. And then from there it just took off. And and when I bought Chief, I I didn't have any aspirations to be a dog trainer or be a professional trainer or anything like that. I just wanted a good hunting dog. I love duck hunting. I've always loved duck hunting my whole life, and um that's what I set out to get, and then then this whole journey kind of kind of took over from there.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's something that how we can get inspired by something from our childhood we saw in a magazine. It really is. Yeah. And you know, and and my my entry into gun into dogs like that was about like you the way I grew up, you know, I didn't have it at home and didn't really have a place to keep one, nor really I couldn't afford those kind of dogs. But my friends had good dogs, and that's how that's how I got into it. Um just fascinated, you know. I I had dogs, just not I had old much, you know, mixed breeds. Um so so that's so have you ever owned any other breed for yourself? I know you trained different dogs, but have you ever bought a retriever or something else to hunt with?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, sir. So um I started with Chief. That was my first dog, and um and so I got him and then I decided real uh about six months after having him, I was like, man, I I want to get another, I want to have at least two of these. And I'd reached out to Phil and Karen Henchman, and that's and then I got on the list to get June. And they actually brought June to me and set to South Carolina um in 2018. And uh Chief was 13 months old when I picked him up, and that's when I I won my first national. Was was that same year when I picked up June and uh we I won the novice division at the Boykin Nationals, and um so I had two of them then, and then I then I started kind of collecting them. I I bought several Boykin Spaniels just kind of back to back as it was going, and um that kind of progressed along. But then after let's see in 23 I decided I was like, man, I want to play some bigger games because I'd been running the grand and with the boykins and doing different things, and you know that that game, there's been some boykans to pass it. There's been four grand champions in the history of boykins. Um but the fails percentage is through the roof. I mean, it's just not a it's just not a boyking game, you know, and I and that's something that I really wanted to do. I wanted to I wanted to push myself towards some of these bigger games. And uh so I bought me a lab, a black lab named Reaper, and I bought him in 23. Um, and he's hunt retriever champion now, and we're I've got him signed up. I ran him in the spring grant in Wisconsin, and uh we didn't have a lot of luck up there. We him, June, and Nelly all went out in the first series. We kind of we just didn't do too good up there uh this spring. But I've got them signed up for this fall. Um and then two years ago, I bought I've been seeing these golden retrievers uh all over the place, and some really nice ones and like finish tests and master tests and stuff like that. And I was like, man, I I really like them golden retrievers. And so I I researched that out and I bought me a golden retriever about two years ago. He's he's two years and a couple months, I think. Uh his name's Rolex, and uh he got his hunt retriever champion title that two weekends ago. And um, so I've got him signed up for the grand this fall too. Um but I I currently own uh two labs, two golden retrievers, and I don't even know how many boykins, probably ten boykins. Oh wow. Yeah, you and then you're training dogs too, right? Other dogs. Or do you still do that? Yes. Yes, sir. Yeah, I trained for the public. Uh I think I've trained 32 dogs this morning. So we uh we got a lot done this morning. Yeah, when I first got into it, it was just fun, fun, fun. You know, it's all I could think about, it's all I wanted to do. And then when you start taking on that many dogs, you had to there's a big learning curve. There there was a there was a year or two there that I ain't gonna lie, I was kind of miserable because that at one point I thought I knew everything, and then all of a sudden I felt like I didn't know nothing, you know, and I had to figure it out and and work through it. And I redesigned my farm a bunch of different ways and dug a bunch of different ponds and things that that fit my training uh schedule and the way I like to do stuff. And and now it goes pretty smooth. I've I've kind of got it where I I've kind of went through the up and down, and I guess I'm kind of on the back up cycle again as far as my my thoughts and and the the way everything flows out. But there there was a there's a period of time where I was like, man, I don't I don't know if I'm cut out for this or not. And then, you know, I had a lot of success with my boykins, and then I started running client boykins and hunt tests and stuff, and it's a little different. And then when you put that pro jacket on and you're standing in front of them judges, they judge you a little bit different than they do when that when you're just an amateur up there with your little boycan, you know. Yeah. And um, so I so it there there's been some ups and downs for sure. It hadn't been all all smooth sailing, but it's it's a lot of fun. I I ain't gonna lie. I wake up every morning and I get to do this, and I get to be outside, and you know, and it's I'm I'm very blessed and to to get to live this life. And I I try to try to let my clients and and my friends and everybody know that that supports me, that I really appreciate you know all the support and allowing me to get to do this.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you i i it I think it makes a whole lot of difference when you have a passion for what you do, and you obviously do, and that's uh probably is a big huge attribute to your success. Um when you're training now that now that you train other breeds, uh so in your camp, not your dogs personally, but the dogs you're training, are most of those boykins, or what all breeds do you have right now that you're training?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm I'm probably about 90% boykins. Um I've got a couple labs in there, and um one of my good hunting clients um brought me a Griffon pointer. Um that's the first one of those I've ever done, so so it's coming along. It's been a little bit different from what I'm used to. Um that's about all I got in there right now in Boykins.
SPEAKER_01:So now, so far of all the breeds you've trained, is there one breed that's easier to you, or are they just all different dogs?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, they're all different dogs, but you gotta put into perspective what you're training them to do. You know, if you're if you're training retrievers, there's nothing better than the a big black American field champion bred lab. I mean, it's they run straight, they go straight, they've been bred for, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean, they're intelligent animals, and that to after training a whole bunch of boykins, if somebody brings you a a really nice bred lab like that, I mean, it's that's like your therapy for the day. That's like mental therapy of like, all right, I get to have a little fun, you know. Yeah. Um so as far as retrievers breeds go, I mean, it it's hard to beat that. Um my golden, I he's bred really, really well. He's field champion bred on the uh sire side, and he's grand champion, real thick grand champion bred on the bitch side. And so he he's he's kind of a hammer himself, and and he's been extremely easy to train, but he's not a lab. He kind of he's he's really really good, but he thinks differently. And so my experience with the boykins has really paid off training him because you know you you notice if you if you notice a dog is really, you know, soft in this area or really sensitive, I guess soft maybe not be the right word, but you know, really sensitive in this area or that area, then you know how to work your way out of it. Because a lot of times it's it's not you're trying not to make mistakes. You know, looking back on a lot of dogs I trained in the past, if I knew what I know now back then, they would have been a lot better dogs.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because you you're we're humans, we make mistakes, you know. And um, and so as you any trainer as they go through their journey, I feel like, you know, you're gonna get better and better. And one of the where one of the areas you're gonna get better in is you're gonna make less mistakes. You know, your your timing is gonna be better, your execution's gonna be better, you know. They're you're gonna one thing I found myself doing is is way less pressure, which I've never used a lot of pressure, but now like today we ran all those dogs, and most of them we didn't even run them with a collar on. So, I mean, we're I've get I've got to where I've used way, way less pressure, and I use more whistle and recalls and you figure out how the dog's thinking, and then you just teach it, you know, and you condition it. And you gotta condition it over and over and over again to get it right. You don't just get it right one time. But um so that that to me is like for as far as the retriever goes, that those are way easier to train. Um I've had some boykins, I've had a couple boykins that I mean they trained just like a retriever would. They were they loved to retrieve, they had a lot of drive, they they ran pretty straight lines naturally. I mean, they loved the water naturally, and birds weren't an issue. A lot of the issues that boykins have, they didn't have, and they just kind of bumped through training and and were really good. But I mean, I that's a very, very few compared to the average of what I get, you know. So the if you're if you're looking to get into retriever training with boykins, it's it's a lot different. And you and you'll one thing I've I've done is you're you'll get more selective on the ones you want to train. Because it it after you trained a bunch of them, in the end, yeah, you can train them and you can title them. I've even made one HRCH that is nothing but a robot. Um, but that's not a good hunting dog. And people, the the owner, you know, he loves the dog and it's a good dog, but it's not his favorite hunting dog because it's not it that dog doesn't naturally want to do it. And you know, if you're training retrievers, you kind of want a dog that naturally wants to retrieve. And so that's what makes the boykins hard. So like when boykins come in to train, or when people call me about a puppy they got, I'm like, get that thing retrieving because it's naturally a spaniel. So we need to teach it to retrieve, and we need to make it love retrieving and bring all the natural retrieve we can out of it before I get it. Because if it gets here and it's not retrieving, it don't have any interest. I mean, I'll do the obedience on it, I'll colour condition it for you. But if it's not retrieving when we get done with all that, I'm not gonna do any type of force fetch or anything like that. I mean, we're pretty much done as far as I'm concerned with with that particular doll because it just naturally doesn't want to do it, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, this is Kenneth Whipp with Gun Dog Nation, and I've got to tell you guys about something that I've gotten hooked on lately. It's Folicious. These are gourmet instant faux and ramen bowls that actually taste like the real deal. When I'm out in the field all day, and the last thing I want is a settle for bland camp food. Foelicious is what I go to. It's authentic, the flavor, it's real ingredients, it's ready in just minutes. It's perfect for hunters, fismen, or anyone on the go. And you can get them over 1900 Walmarts nationwide, your local H E B here in Texas. Or you can just go online at folicious.com. Trust me, once you try it, you'll keep a few stocked in in your bag, in your pack pack, or for your next adventure. I just want to say this, I want to add this to this commercial because I know the owners of this company. They've hunted on my ranch, the uh Joseph, uh, he and I wax. Met in Colorado on a hunting trip that was a real adventure. They are true hunters. They've hunted the ranch, you know, and I've I've hunted with them. And Anna, she is just amazing. She is the one that came up with this idea. They were both on Shark Tank. They are amazing people. So I love seeing people like this have a business. And I just had to say that in addition to the commercial because I really believe in the product and I believe in the people that made the product. Be sure and go to Folishious.com or go to Walmart or H E B and try their product. I promise you you will like it. Um is your approach any different, Jonathan? When you approach a boycotting as opposed to how you would approach your first day training a lab. And I I'm kind of just talking about the first day. When you first get a dog out, that you're it's a client's brought you this dog, do you handle or is it just breed speci I mean is it just dog specific? Is it more so breed specific?
SPEAKER_00:Um I guess I've kind of like developed a process that works for me. Um with what I've seen, and I and I've helped a lot of other guys with their labs and their golden too. Um because there's not a lot of good water around me. So a lot of people come here to use my water. Uh even a lot of pros come here to use my water. And um, so I get to see and witness a lot of different things, some some good and some some not too good. Um so but the way I've kind of developed it is if uh if I can figure out how to do all these little small steps to get these boykins to do it, if I do all those small steps with a lab or with a golden, they d they don't really need it. But by doing all that, you get a way better dog. I mean, they clearly understand what you want, they're already excited about it. The pressure goes way down, the fun goes way up, and you just move right along. And so really the first day I get a lab or the first day I get a boycan is kind of the same. It's a very playful, I'm very playful for a while. And some of it's gonna depend on the age of the dog and some of the specifics of the situation also. But if you brought me a six-month-old lab and a six-month-old boycott, it's gonna kind of be the same thing as what I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna go out there and play and get them retrieving. Um, I do a lot of marker type training, so I'm gonna start you, I use a little hot dog, like a half a hot dog each session, and I'll just pinch the pieces off and I'm getting them to sit and I'm getting them healing and moving around me real good and place. I'm really big on place training and things like that. And if you can get a dog that understands marker training and working with you that way, you can go, you can move on pretty quick, and they understand it really well. And so you can kind of just you can kind of just roll on with it. And that that's kind of a lot of what I do, especially that first month, is just it's a lot of playfulness and a lot of just teaching what I want, uh, whether it be treats or if I can transition, if they retrieve so good, I can transition off of a treat, and then I start using the uh reward to be the retrieve or the I get them to strike and fetch out of my hand. If I if I ever get that going on, then it's really game on. Then we're fixing to have some fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, do you use a clicker for I do not use a clicker.
SPEAKER_00:I just use a I just use a vocal mark. I usually just say yes in a very specific voice. And the the thing about the clicker training that took me a while to really understand, and I bought Pat Nolan has a series out now, um, and it's three, it's three parts now. He just released the fetch part. And uh, like I said earlier, I'm all the time buying and and watching and learning as much as I can. But the pet but Pat Nolan breaks some stuff down as far as marker training with puppies and developing puppies. Uh he can break down collar conditioning and explain it in a way that uh anybody that's training a dog, I think, should have to watch that and go through it because the way he breaks down collar conditioning is on another level. Um and it works. I'm telling you, I've I've been using that part for two seasons now, and and it works really, really well. Um But uh I just use a I just use my voice and I just say yes in a very specific way, but you got to capture that picture. So it's like when you say the word yes, whatever they're doing in that moment is like you just took a picture of it. So if they were sitting and they've stood up to come get the treat, that's not what you're looking for. You want to make sure everything's calm and still and you say yes when they're sitting, and then if they jump or whatever, it don't matter, you can give them the treat and and move on. But the the marker training is very specific. I mean, you you have to do it right so they understand it. And it that's taken me a little bit of time to develop. But once you figure it out, it it works really, really well.
SPEAKER_01:Especially with a boy can't the the timing of that's important too, isn't it, Jonathan? I mean you're timing and yeah, that's kind of that's kind of where I was going with that.
SPEAKER_00:Like the timing is that picture. And so when you when you say when you click or you say yes or okay or whatever you use, I mean it's gotta be perfect. Um I mean, that's what dog training is, really, is time and imbalance. And I mean it starts with with that, but I mean down the road your whistle timing has got to be dead on. You know, you're if you if you're force-fetching a dog, you're you're that you better be very, very dead on there with your timing. So dog training is is all about timing and balance.
SPEAKER_01:Well said. I like that too. Now, Jonathan, uh who who do you look up to the most, uh or may even be your mentor as a trainer?
SPEAKER_00:There's a lot of guys that I that I love to watch and and follow. Um when I first got started, my buddy, uh, when I was a kid, um, he spent a lot of time with me when I had Chief. And uh his name's Chase Kemp. He's he's here local to me, and uh he's got a kennel, and he still trains some dogs too. And uh he spent a lot of time with me, and and I owe him uh him a lot of uh appreciation and gratitude for for doing that because that kind of without that I wouldn't have have had the roots. And he was very, very stern with me on obedience and building that foundation right, you know, and it kind of drove me nuts back then because I was seeing all the cool stuff, you know, that his older dogs are doing. I'm like, man, that's where I want to be, that's where I want to be. And I finally got there with a couple dogs, and I'm like, man, I know what he was saying now. I've got to go back and fix all this stuff. And I mean, that every and I think everybody's the same way. When you get that first dog, like you want to just skip and go right to the top. And the what's really important about dog training is getting all, I mean, sit. I was at a Stephen Durance seminar and he said he's never seen a dog that sat too good. And as soon as he said that, I was like, man, that's solid right there, because I've never seen a dog that sat too good either, you know. And uh so, you know, to get that okay, get that all that your obedience, your foundation solid is very important, you know, and that was some things that he really instilled with me. And then from there, um, a guy out of Jackson, Tennessee named Chris Scott kind of took me under his wing. And um, and for several years, he he mentored me and and kind of showed me the ropes and and and helped me out and helped me understand a lot of things. And um, you know, it wouldn't awe, it was a lot of tough love at times. It wouldn't awe, you know, fun and you know, laughing. I mean, he was pretty, pretty serious about it, you know, and and he was pretty rough on me at times, but you know, he he really he really took time out of his day that he didn't have to, and and I've always really appreciated that. Um, and that's kind of my two mentors, but I've also had some guys that that spent some time with me, and I've been to some seminars and different things. Uh I've been to three Stephen Durant seminars, and and he took some extra time out of his data besides that to help me out. And and that guy's on a I mean, that the way he breaks stuff down, the way he trains, it's his his brain. That's an intelligent dude. I mean, he's got it going on. Um, and he he's a good teacher too. Like he he ain't about like nobody messing around, but I mean he's he can he can really teach you if you want to learn and you'll let him teach the way he teaches. It man, that guy's good. Um and then uh Adam Campbell um has always Adam Campbell's kind of a boycan guy in a way because he his brother had a boycott, a female boycotting that's historically a lot of the good blood that's out there now has got her in it. And um, but Adam's invited me down to train before, and Adam's kicked in and chimed in when I've had some ups and downs, and he's a Adam's a good dude.
SPEAKER_01:He's a really good guy. He's a great guy. We were actually supposed to do a podcast today at one o'clock, and he's like, we we've done two full podcasts and lost them. Like, you know, got lost in the in in our program. So we're trying to do it for a third time. And he's like, Dave man, he said, can I get a rain check? He said, We've got sun today and it's been raining, and and I'm I need to train so bad. I was like, no, man, it's fine, but he's a great guy. You know, Jonathan, the guys you mentioned, like I don't I've never met Steve Durance. I've listened to him. I actually just listened to him last week on an SRS podcast. But you know, what I love about this community, and I'm talking about you and me and and everybody around, is everybody really most people help each other, you know. Like I drive Clark Kington crazy, Brody Best, those guys, you know, I don't know Steve Durance. He he probably don't want to know me because I'd probably drive him crazy too, because I'm always asking questions and and seeking advice, and and everybody is so seems so willing to help. Do you find that? Hey, it's Kenneth Whip, the Gun Dog Nation Podcast, and I'm very proud to have as a new sponsor Cable Gangs. That's spelled G-A-N-G-Z. Brendan Landry at Cable Gaines has developed, in my opinion, and I have, and I'm a customer, the best tie-out systems on the market. They're easy to pack, easy to store, they can coil up just like an extension cord. They use premium galvanized steel cable coated with durable, UV resistant PVC coating. The branding can make custom products, anything you want that's related to a dog tie-out system or a cable system or a way to safely secure your dog. They've even made a system that works with a bicycle so you can go and exercise your bicycles and have your dog running along with you. It's it would be impossible for me to describe to you all the different custom applications they have, so just go to their website at cablegangs.com and check it out. They make dog tie outs a way to safely secure your dogs. If you're at a field trial, a hunt test, cunning hound competition, whatever that might be, these guys make the best product on the market. Check it out for yourself, cablegangs.com.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yes, sir. I mean, that I mean, I wouldn't know a lot of most of the stuff I know now if somebody wouldn't have took the time to to help me with it and at le at least get you going, you know. Yes. That that's the biggest thing. But you know, there for a long time I was I was the one like begging, begging, begging, and and I still, if I can get around the right guys, I'm I'm quiet or I'm probably got questions. Stephen tell me shut up, but I got questions, you know, all the time of like, well, exp can you explain that? Or, you know, because I just got a lot of thoughts in my head too. But now I've kind of got to that over that curve where now a lot of guys are coming here and asking me questions, and you know, and I'm trying to trying to trying to give it back. You know, I've got one, there was a sim we did a seminar here um with a guy, uh, they there was a ladies' golden group here local to me, golden retriever group, and uh they had hired a guy to come in and do a seminar, and they used my place. And from that seminar, a lot of the or several of the ladies have have came back and got me to help them uh with their dogs. And I got one lady right now that's she's coming once a week, and uh, and we're doing some private lessons with her. And um, and just you know, that that's just uh you're right, that's how the community works. You know, if if you're if you're willing to to to participate both ways, I mean people are people are there to help.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's really nice. You know, I I go down sometimes when I when I can and work with Justin Drake. He's only about two hours from where I'm at here, and uh he trains me, you know, like I take my dogs, but he's training me more than he's training my dog. But yeah, it's it's helpful. I have I'm gonna have to come hit you up. Uh now, are you how close are you, Jonathan, to Huntington? Or Huntsville. Huntsville. I'm sorry, Huntsville. Okay. That's like Huntington.
SPEAKER_00:I was like, I don't know where Huntington is.
SPEAKER_01:I was thinking of West Virginia, man, because I was looking at some muskie fishing places today and I had that on my mind. Sorry about that. So Huntsville. Reason I know Huntsville, I was in red, I used to, I was in the Army and I did a little bit of time at Redstone Arsenal.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, sir. Uh Redstone Arsenal, you could probably get there in about 15 or 20 minutes uh from where Kennel. Okay. Yeah, I'm just I'm just west of here.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow, okay, yeah. I used to go down there and seemed like you always send me air in the summertime, man. I was like, gosh, mighty. It was hot, but uh yeah, I I've been there a lot. So you're only what two hours from Nashville? Something like that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, about an hour and a half, yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow, okay. Um I'm getting ready to move to just outside of Nashville, right between Hendersonville and Gallatin air. So I don't be too far away from you.
SPEAKER_00:No, sir. You have to come down and check me out.
SPEAKER_01:I I want to. I definitely want to. Yeah, man, I I it's every kind of I'd see somebody uh with a boycan, they would know you. It it's uh every convention I've been to. So uh you you're well thought of. You have a great name in this business, and that's something to be proud of. I appreciate that. Um, so now these litters you got coming up, are they already sold out?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we I've got a lot of interest in them, but I wouldn't say they're sold out. If if somebody's interested uh in getting a boy can, you know, reach out to me and you know, once we do sell out, um I've got some clients with with some some litters that are gonna be coming up also, so we can get you if you're looking for performance, we can we can try to get you the right pup, you know, that'll fit your needs.
SPEAKER_01:Now, Jonathan, a man that competes like you trains 32 dogs, there's there's really no substitute. You can't learn that in the classroom working with 32 different dogs. I can't imagine what that's like. What what's one of your main pieces of advice that you would give as a trainer to an amateur like me or some of our listeners, you know, when training a dog? What what's I mean there's probably lots of advice. You could probably talk for hours and hours, but what's the m one of the most important things that you think that they should keep in mind?
SPEAKER_00:I think especially uh really any breed, but just keeping it fun and keeping it balanced. I think I see a lot of amateurs that and owners that they get things will go good, but then the moment that it goes bad, it goes real bad because they make it worse because they take all the fun out of it. And they can't step back and see their self and see their dog. All they're seeing is the dog and what's going on at the moment, and the dog's not doing what they want it to do for whatever reason. And so they're you know frustrated and and in the moment they're panicking and and they've taken all the fun out of it. And you you gotta keep it fun for the dog. I mean, you you wouldn't want to go work for somebody every day and just be miserable, and a lot of times uh an owner, an amateur, you would be going to work for somebody that didn't know what they were doing. And so you were confused and they're confused, and and everybody, and you're getting, you know, beat on and whooped on, and and and they and you don't know why, you know, and it's it just becomes miserable and then and they quit and the dog quits. And and you would quit, you would quit your job too if you were in that situation, you know, and that's probably my biggest the biggest thing I see a lot of times, and and especially with the boykins, because they don't naturally do a lot of this retriever stuff that that we want them to do. And it's really, really easy to to get to a spot where you can't get through, you can't figure out what's going on with them. Um, and the thing about them is, you know, I kind of go back to what I say about the last name being Spaniel versus Retriever. That retriever, that lab or that golden that you got, his DNA is to retrieve, he loves it. That's what he wants to do, and that's what he's that's what he's naturally from God, that's what he's built to do. He he loves to retrieve, that's what he's gonna do. So if you make a mistake or you put too much pressure in the wrong spot or whatever, he's probably still gonna keep retrieving until it gets real, real bad. It's gonna have to get real bad to make him stop because he just loves it so much. Well, that boy can, he don't love it. Even the good ones, I mean, it it's that's not in their DNA. And so that the moment you start making them confused and unsure about their self and it's not fun anymore, and and and mainly when it's not fair anymore because they don't understand what's going on, they're done. I mean, and and it's bad. I mean, you can some of them you can get it back, and some of them you can't. You know, it just depends on how far you took it. But when you make bad mistakes with a boycott and you you got problems.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, Jonathan, I hear trainers say that same thing about cocker spaniels. Have you found that or have you worked with cocker spaniels?
SPEAKER_00:I've not done a whole lot with cocker spaniels, but they're again they're a spaniel, you know. They're not their DNA's not made to do what we're wanting them to do. And uh a lot of it, I think a lot of this stuff is you know, these hunt tests were originally designed. If you read the HRC's Creed, you know, it's that was for hunting dogs and for hunters. And now it's it a lot of these tests, the dogs are getting so good and the training's getting so good, these tests are the the standard of these tests is getting higher and higher, even on weekend tests, even all the way down to season and starting. But the standard for a really well-bred lab or a really really well-bred golden retriever versus the standard for a boy in spaniel, that they're their gaps not coming up the same way the these other dogs in training are, you know. So I think people are having, they're trying to, they're getting fails and they're pushing their dog harder and harder. And a lot of it, I think, is coming out of the out of the hunt test standard, you know. And the thing I tell all my clients and and friends and people that talk about, you know, they want to get a boy Conspaniel and and and do what I do, you know, they want to go get in the hunt test game and do this. The first thing I tell them is, you're gonna get some fails. More than likely, you're gonna get a lot of fails, especially when you start getting into season and finished. I mean, it you're uh sometimes I've been to places where the terrain or the cover or whatever it might be, it just didn't set up for a boycan. And I mean, I've taken dogs that you know don't have many fails and don't hardly ever handle on a mark, and really, really good, some of the really, really good ones, and they still fail. You know, it's just sometimes you get there and it's just not it's just not your day, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um so you know, like that was two or three years ago we were running a test, and on Saturday, um, I think we had 10 dogs, and we passed every one of them. We didn't have a handle or nothing. I mean, we had a really good group of dogs, and and and we did good, and that wasn't finished. And the next day the cover was so high you couldn't see the dog at all on the marks, and very, very little on the blind. And so I I mean I made a decision. I just scratched the whole trailer because I knew it was fixing to happen. You know, we were we were fixing to lose every dog, especially on the blind. And so, you know, we so but so on Saturday we were perfect and on Sunday we were zero. And you know, that that's just the name of the game. So if if you're getting into a boycott and you're wanting to and you're wanting to run hunt tests, you're wanting to do that, those type things, you just need to know that those tests are not designed and not made up for your dog. They're they're designed and they're made up for like for for lab Labrador retrievers, pretty much. And and if you go into it with the right mindset, you can have a lot of fun and you can, you know, you can learn. You can you get to those hard tests and you can learn a lot. And you get around uh all these pros that you're you're naming and I'm naming, and you and you get to watch them just watching them run their dogs, and I love watching them get dogs off the truck and all the little things they do. Yes. From getting them off the truck to getting to the holding blind to getting to the line and and going back to the truck. That if you watch those really successful pros, the ones that are at the top, you're gonna learn some stuff just by watching the little things that they do. And so if you if you go into it with the right mindset, you know, you can have a lot of fun with your boykin. But if you go into it with, I'm fixing to get this boycan and light it light up the hunt test trail and and be the next, you know, boykin superstar, it's it's you're probably gonna you're probably gonna be pretty disappointed in what you get.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, it's Kenneth Witt with the Gun Dog Nation podcast, and we are so proud to be partnered with the National Shoot to Retrieve Association, also known as Nastra. Nastra has a common love for producing the best bird dogs possible. It's a great community that builds and bonds everlasting friendships. I've actually got to meet a lot of the NASA members and who's taking me hunting and some other Krause hanging stuff in different places. So I can honestly say I'm a member and I'm proud to be partnered with them. NASTR hosts national and regional field trials that emphasize the working ability of bird dogs. They have been around for over 50 years. There's a reason that NASTR has been around that long. Please check them out at www.nstra.org. And belong and support your local NASTAR club. They do have national and regional events, and it's a good place to help learn to be a better dog trainer, a better dog owner, and to compete with your bird dog. Thank you. Man, uh everything you just said was very well put. I need to that that's uh and you know, one of the things you said there that really caught me too, Jonathan, is basically a lot of times these dogs aren't doing what you ask of it, just like you said, it's because it don't understand what you're asking. Um but I and I've I've had to learn that the hard way myself. But no, you're right about how these tests are made up. I like how you talked about that. It's it's it's exactly right. These tests were set up for retrievers and who are taller dogs can see in higher grass and uh move through that kind of stuff. I never even thought about that. But I see I've never ran a span, I've ran retrievers on a hunt test, just not spaniels. But I'm getting ready to run a dog.
SPEAKER_00:It's uh well you'll get the you'll get you a dose of it then, you know. It's different. You know, it's it's not it's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, running boykins and tests is where you learn in life and and and as a trainer or anything really is from your fails. You don't that's what makes you good. You know, you when you fail and you you want it really bad and you fail, that's when you work harder and you study harder and you train harder and you try to get better. You know, when you win all the time, it makes you lazy and it makes you cocky. And you know, and I and that's that's a that's a easy bad road to go down, you know. Sometimes winning is not is not the best best road to go down. Some you know, sometimes you need to you need to be taken down a notch. And if you run boykins and and hunt tests, you'll get taken down all the notches you need to get taken down. But there also come some times where when you finally hit it, when you finally, you know, get that HRCH on that boycan, or you know, you f you finally get to that next level and it's then it means something to you. Then it's then it's extremely important.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, I like that. So you will be at the grand this year in Nashville. Yes, sir, I'll be there. I I wanted to go so bad, I'm not gonna be able to I've I've got a hunting trip instead, and uh it's killing me because I I could not anyway, it's something I've already prepaid, so I couldn't afford to scrap it, but I will go the next one. Um what what's some big plans that you've got uh or some you know for for your kennel for tomahawk kennels. Any anything in the works that you're working on?
SPEAKER_00:I mean we're just trying to press forward and and and build better dogs. Um I've I've tried to get a few more labs and golden in my kennel uh because I would like to play the some of the bigger games that you know the boykins are just not um you know built to do. Um so that's one thing I've I've been working on a little bit. Um but um I mean we're trying to get some boykin breedings in there that we know we can we can get that that's how we're the boykins are gonna get better is you're gonna have to put the breedings together to make them better. Um and so we're that's something that we've been focused on uh myself and with uh with several of my clients that have really nice dogs that are interested in breeding their dogs. Um just doing that. And um every fall I try to add on to the farm a uh pond or um dirt work or what or whatever it is. So um I've been looking at some down by the creek, I've been looking at uh putting in another little unique little piece of water down there, possibly this fall. Um that's that's what we're doing. We're just we're just trying to trying to to train better dogs and and get better. You know, that's that's where we're at right now.
SPEAKER_01:Um do you have enough rain there to keep your ponds or do you have to pump them with the water well?
SPEAKER_00:Uh my tech pond and my stick pond up on on top of the hill on the top side. Um I have a well running in them um and it keeps them full. Um I don't have any trouble keeping them full. My bottom ponds, um, this year we've had enough rain. I've I've got a little runoff ditch um that I've cut into those. And um we've had enough rain this year that until about the middle of July they were over full and running out of the spillway. And then um they've dropped down some, but but right now uh all my ponds are are still pretty full. So I've been fortunate this year with water. That's one thing about you know training a water dog, and I and you know, I stay full a lot of times and can't take on any more dogs, and I say, Well, you know, where do I send my dog? And I say, well, send it to somebody that's got water, you know. Human nature, you know, you're not a lot of people ain't gonna load up the trailer and drive 30 or 45 minutes every day, you know, to go do swim by on 10 dogs, you know. But if you got it right right here on your place, you know, especially the the foundational part, you don't have to have everything on your place, but you need some water there to do foundational type work and and that at minimum, you know, I think. And um, you know, I've I've invested a lot of money to get all that done um here on my place. So that's one thing. I can walk out of the kennel and and be at good foundational water and and about 30 or 40 yards, you know. I can just rot walk right out the back side of the kennel and I'm there. So so we're good on good on water. Now, did you design your own ponds? Um my tech pond, um I that's when uh me and Chris Scott, well he was mentoring me a lot, and he helped me a lot with the tech pond. Um, but then from there, the stick pond and and all that I've I've kind of built another really I call it a canal pond, but um it's kind of a tech pond in a way down here in the bottom. Um some of the design on those came from just training year after year, and like, man, I wish I had this, or if I had that, I could um I could get this done faster or I could get it done better. And then a couple of the ponds, the way I designed them, um there was some like rain runoff water that was like catching in different areas, and like it kind of gave me the design and the thought process of how that would work. And so that that ball, I kind of dug all that out and took trees out, and then that next spring, the last portion that I put in, it man, it's been perfect this year. It it really added a whole lot to my training program. I added it's kind of like a horseshoe-shaped canal, but it bends around the other two ponds right there and kind of connects them in a way. Oh, yeah. But it's it's narrow enough where I can get a lot of re-entries real fast. It's a small hill right there, hillside. And so uh if you get on my website, uh, or I don't know if that'll be on there yet, but on my social medias for sure, TikTok and Facebook, some of that, uh, you can see the ponds. But um it added a lot for re entries and a lot of, you know, when I get into water work with boykins, that's a very sensitive subject because, you know, what everybody, there's a big misconception with boykins and water. If you walk up to water, And you have a bumper and you've got that dog retrieving and you throw a big splash in there with a white bumper, man, that dog loves it. I mean, that and people think, man, my boy can love water. I take him out to the lake, they're jumping off the boat, and they're doing all this, and and and that's fine and all until you get into a formal setting. And when you line that dog up and say Dead Bird back, then what's he gonna do? Or when you get into a formal setting where, you know, you got a winger mark going off at a test, and that duck didn't it's a duck and it didn't splash, or it's a cheaty mark, and then what's that dog gonna do? And then a lot of then that's where a lot of people start getting into a lot of trouble because their dog will start no-going them or running the bank or doing whatever they're doing, whatever the issue is. And I guess by human nature, until you until you learn better, everybody resorts to the collar, and they they just want to start really getting heavy on the collar. Well, now you're going back to something we talked about earlier where if that dog's confused and he don't fully understand that you're asking him to get in the water, and now you're starting to add collar pressure or whatever pressure is starting to add to them, now to a boycotting it that don't want to do it anyways, now you now you're just digging that hole deeper and deeper and deeper. Um so by the way I've designed my ponds and everything here, I've got it a lot of shorter entry stuff for the younger dogs where I can really make a an impact on I I call it soft D cheat. It's kind of similar to the way uh Chris Aiken did in some of his earlier duck dog videos, the way he does that. I kind of took that and tweaked it a little bit where it works a little better for boykins, but I call that soft D-cheat. And I start with that before I really get into much of the formal water stuff. And by doing that, it teaches them, hey, I want you to get in the water. I want, you know, it's the water's good. I want you to get in. And then from there I go into uh a lot of pile pile work and um casting and and swim by and uh tune-up drill and all that kind of stuff. That's when I start getting into that portion of it. Um but if you don't have the right water and you got really big open water, boykins don't like looking at it. And so that can be a problem because they they ain't about to swim no two or three hundred yards, especially if they hadn't been very, very trained and they have a whole lot of drive, they ain't doing it. So if you make them, if you're trying to point them out there and do something like that, it ain't it ain't gonna work. Or even a bigger pond, you know, it just it ain't gotta be that kind of extreme. But uh to have the smaller, have it have everything broken down smaller. But where I've also found that um that's very beneficial for the labs and golden's is when you're teaching that kind of stuff and you're and you're just teaching it, you're not really conditioning it yet to longer stuff, you get way more reps in when it's shorter distance. And so where if you're trying to swim a dog, you know, 50 or 60 yards, and I'm trying to swim one and teach him in a 15 or 20 yard swim, I can get three or four times the reps in that you can. And so accidentally, by setting it up for boykins, it seems to work really, really well with the labs and the and the goldens, also.
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SPEAKER_00:If you get on um We did a we did a tick, I had a guy bring a drone out a month or two ago, and I did a TikTok and a reel on uh social media of all the ponds and the and the place and everything. So you'll be able to see kind of the layout of it from there. Is your TikTok in your name or is it Tomahawk? It's Tomahawk Boykins or Tomahawk Kennel is one.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna go check that out. Uh especially since I'm I'm I'm in driving distance. You I'm used to being out here in West Texas. I have to drive three hours to train anywhere. And to hunt there. There ain't a lot of water out in West Texas. No, there's nothing. I'm only lucky like four miles from me is a is a spring-fed river. It's you know, it's not that wide, but it's it's better than nothing. And that's all I have. Um which it's good to keep them, you know, you they have to cross the river to get bumpers, it kind of helps them not to ever want to cheat because they really can't cheat because it's a river. They either go in or they can't go in it, you know. So anyway, that's really all I have. So I I'm I'm looking forward to being a little bit back in the in in the places where there's water.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and uh you got uh where we run music city hunt tests up there at Percy Priest, that's just right east of Nashville, and there's all kind of good tech water and really any kind of water you want up there to train on, also.
SPEAKER_01:Somebody the other day was telling me all about that. I I I know where Percy Priest is, and uh, but they were saying there's a place you can go and train and stuff. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:It is yes, sir, it is. That's that's where we ran this past weekend. Actually, it's uh I guess uh it's just it's just east of Nashville. La Verne, Tennessee, I think is the actual name of it. Pools Knob is the WMA right there, where the Pools Knob Training Grounds.
SPEAKER_01:I'm east of Nashville, but I'm northeast, and that's kind of southeast-east. That's not that far from me, I don't think. But when I get there, I don't get there. Well, hey, so Jonathan, man, you've you've this has been great. You've given me a wealth of knowledge. Uh you you've you've done a lot of work, uh homework on on training and dogs, and and it shows. I I mean I can just tell it talking to you, man. You you've you know what you're doing. It's impressive. I gotta ask you though, uh, me being a Kentuckian, Kentucky native, and went to the University of Kentucky, what's that K on your hat for? That's actually a T uh TK. That's my logo. I was like, man, I could I could just see the edge of it, you know. And I thought, man, is he wearing a Kentucky hat? I figured I was outlaw in Alabama, but uh okay.
SPEAKER_00:I like is that your logo? That's one of them. That's the letter one, and then I got uh I usually got it everywhere. I've got uh actually Chiefs. I had a guy I went to high school with, he's an artist. He took a side image of Chief and uh and made my logo out of that. Um that's a pretty cool logo. I don't have it. I don't have anything. Well, there it is on my uh on my iPad, you can see it. That's Chief and June with there too. Uh national wins and then uh Chief actually won it twice. He won the national open. So Chief won the novice in 18, and then June won the novice national in uh twenty-one, and then Chief won the uh the national open, the BSS National Open in 22. So he's actually won it twice. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Nice. And then fortunate to me, it's hard enough to win a grand with a retriever and taking a boycotting. I mean, man, that's that's that's a challenge, I'm sure. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Uh I got a buddy that'll be down there at the gr uh at the grand, he's been on this podcast in North Carolina at uh Landon Pop, and he's uh he's got uh it's a wire hair, you know. It's uh it's not his it's not officially a drop, but it's one of those droughts, you know. Yes, but he's got he he's got one pass. So if he passes this time in Nashville, he'll get a title, you know. It'd be pretty I don't think it's the first time.
SPEAKER_00:That's I mean that's that's huge right there. If you ever go to one or or get to run in one, it it you gotta be perfect. I mean, they don't there's no mistakes and you and the dog, it's a team effort. I mean, you you gotta be perfect. So to take a dog that's not a retriever and and to do that kind of work with it, that that guy knows what he's doing, and and that is that is an extremely special dog. I can promise you that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's I think you're right on both counts. I think it's a he's got a great dog, but and you know, Lannon's a young man. I I think he's in his mid, I just got phone with him earlier today, mid to late twenties or something like that. But it's amazing. Uh but he's and he's real humble. He's a big old dude, but he's a real humble guy, and he really knows what he's doing, and obviously. But yeah, and then guys like you compete with a with a boycan at that level is something too. But uh Jonathan, I I know we've had to I appreciate you being accommodating me. I've had to move schedules around here and stuff, and uh it's been kind of crazy, but I've been wanting to get you on forever, and this is my what's what's what I feel proud about is this is your first podcast with me. So I I'm yeah, I like that. And this is we've talked about boykins on here. Yeah. Oh I'm I'm I can I'm I'm excited that I'm your first one, and you're the first podcast I've had that's just pure boyking, and I you know I like that because I wanted to I try to see I I know guys like you don't pay attention, but I even do coon dogs and stuff too. Um so I like to cover all hunting dog breeds, and that's not easy to do. There's so many. You know, I've got I'm trying to do one right now on Gordon Setters. Uh so yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's uh there's not a lot of us out here that you know kind of specialize. There's you know, if you're a good good trainer, a good dog trainer as far as retriever goes, you could train a boycan if you wanted to take the time and do it. But yeah, as far as guys that you know have you know over 50% of their kennel and boycott, there's there's just not many of us, you know, that's that crazy, I guess. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I I know it's challenging because I've talked to other guys, man. I know it uh I know it's not easy. Uh I don't think I'm at that level. But well, Jonathan, man, I know you got a busy, I know you got a lot on your plate there, and I take appreciate you taking the time to get on here with me. And uh hopefully pretty quick I can meet you in person. Yes, sir. I appreciate you inviting me on, and I hope it turns out good for you. It will. And uh, this is a good we'll we'll promote you on here too, man. You deserve it. But thank you, Jonathan. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our YouTube channel to check out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation. For$10 a month, you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly we'll do a monthly forum, an open forum where you can ask me anything gun dog related and we'll learn from each other in the community. Should be a lot of fun each month. We will do that. So check it out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation.