Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Dan Ihrke - How Early Training And Smart Pressure Create Steady, High-Drive Retrievers
#62 A well-trained dog that hunts with composure doesn’t happen by accident. Kenneth sits down with trainer and preserve manager Dan Ihrke to map out a clear path from puppyhood to polished gun dog, connecting genetics, early foundations, and fair pressure to performance that holds up in real blinds. Dan explains why the HRC Grand is his north star—it fuses technical concepts with real hunting chaos—then shows how smart puppy work creates the mindset to pass difficult tests and love the work afterward.
We dig into the nuts and bolts of building a thinking retriever: teaching “here,” sit, place, and leash pressure; early casting and lining using bowls, placeboards, and fun bumpers; and shaping a dog that understands pressure as information it can turn off by choosing correctly. Dan tackles the clicker vs “good” debate, the power of variable reinforcement, and how treats can quadruple learning speed when paired with avoidance training and phased out as birds and work become the primary rewards. Control is a recurring theme: use a check cord so you never give unenforceable commands, and stop puppies from self-rewarding bad choices that create “criminal” habits.
The conversation widens to breeding and real-world transfer. Dan shares how modern field-trial-influenced labs think faster and handle nuanced methods, but warns that natural pickup, hold, and carry can be bred out if we rely on force fetch to fix everything. We talk British vs American tendencies, cold-weather grit, blind manners, and why paper titles don’t reveal how a dog behaves on the second icy retrieve. You’ll also hear practical guardrails for bird exposure so you don’t create a wing-snob that refuses bumpers.
If you want a reliable retriever that’s steady at the line and relentless in the marsh, this is your blueprint: start early, mark clearly, manage pressure fairly, and choose bloodlines that actually hunt. Subscribe, share with your training group, and leave a review to help more handlers find the show.
Gundog Nation is Proudly Sponsored by Waterstone Labradors.
Gundog Nation is Proudly Sponsored by:
I'm Kenneth Witt and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to build a community of people around the world that like to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we want to get our youth involved into the sport of gun dogs, whether it be hunting, sport, or competition. We want to build a community of people united to preserve our gun dog heritage and to be better gun dog owners. Tune in to each weekly episode and learn about training, dog health, wellness, and nutrition. We will also offer tips for hunting with dogs and for competition, hunt tests, field trials, and other dog sports that involve gun dogs. Please go to our website, gundognation.com and subscribe to our email list. We will keep you informed weekly with podcasts that are coming out. We also will be providing newsletters with training tips and health tips for your dog. You can also go to patreon.com forward slash gundognation and become a member. There's different levels of membership on there. Just go check that out. Also, we'd like to thank Sean Brock for providing the music for this show. The introduction and the outro is Sean Brock. He played everything on there except the Banjo by Scott Vestal and the Dobro by Jerry Douglas. Sean is a neighbor of mine from over in Harlan, Kentucky. I'm just crossing mountain in Hyden, Kentucky, and he's a super talented guy. But most of all, want you guys to check out the Creekers. They are also from Hydon, Kentucky, and this is an up-and-coming bluegrass and country band. And these guys are hot. They're all over TikTok and YouTube. You will hear these guys because in a year or so that they will be on the radio. They are very talented. Their videos are going viral on the net. These boys are family. Two of the lead singers, one grew up with my daughter, and the other one is my cousin's son. So he's family. But check them out. Check out the creakers. Also, last but not least, if you want to buy a hat, koozie, t-shirt, or even gun dog supplies, go to shopgundognation.com and you can purchase any of those items. Thank you so much for listening. It's a privilege to have people that want to put up with me talking about dogs all the time. I actually enjoy what I do, and I'm so glad to have this opportunity. And thank you. Hello, it's Kenneth Witt. Welcome back to the Gundog Nation podcast. I'm coming to you today from Red Lodge, Montana. I've took a couple days' break from hunting because I've been doing it for about six straight weeks, and uh my 57-year-old body needs to heal. Uh but I'm getting ready to start back to pheasant hunt now in South Dakota. But I've been wanting to get this gentleman on here for a long time. Uh our schedules, and it's mostly my fault, it's just been crazy. Uh, but I really want to get him on even more so now because I'm using his training program for a puppy that I have from Chris Rudd, who also I think in some way partners with Dan on this. So, Dan, before I go further, please introduce yourself and tell everybody what you do.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, my name is Dan Erke, and um I manage a thousand-acre hunting preserve here in central Illinois, as well as uh have kind of formed and managed Gun Dog Success, which is a kennel that houses uh up to 80 dogs at a time. We have three full-time trainers, um, soon to be four. Um, and we've operated with three to four trainers, you know, for the last 15 years. Um, I started the operation out um managing the hunting preserve uh about 30 years ago and um and then started training dogs there immediately, but really wasn't proficient for probably five or six years, and then uh started doing it professionally at that point, and then slowly kind of worked my way into doing hunt tests. And um I probably got 20 years with HRC now, uh, you know, doing HRC dogs from the ground up to finish to, and then uh of course the grand, the grand has been a big part of what I do every yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Dan, how long have you been? I know the grand, and I'm I'm not don't profess to be a hunt test expert, but it seems to be by far the most difficult, challenging hunt test. Would that be fair to say?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, in my view, the grand um is is definitely the most difficult um because it ties in all of the difficult nature of uh technical concepts that you see with other tests uh in a real hunting venue uh that's not really forgiving with regards to lack of line manners and lack of the ability for the dog to keep their composure with all these uh you know the the real elements of the hunt, honor dogs, uh you know, shooting a real gun, um, pointing at each bird, shooting the gun. Um so they're expecting you know good hunting dogs level of stability, yet all of the technical elements out there.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I I like that. That's a that actually helped me think about it in a different lot. So, Dan, what is your favorite uh dog gun dog competition? Uh have you do you field trial any? No, no.
SPEAKER_02:So I do really primarily HRC. Um, I train clients that do master AKC master hunts as well. But uh my my primary focus has always been HRC from start to the grand. So I don't do field trials. Um the young gentleman that that is uh that works for me named Tyler Brenner, who um who I trained as well, you know, he is dabbling into just about everything. But from my perspective, see, I've got my roots here at the hunting preserve. So I am deeply, deeply rooted in producing a product that goes to the to the field. Um and the grand is is so the grand is really my crown championship of the every year because it again uh is the is the uh the culmination of of all these different you know gun dog um exercises, drills, etc. Um, combined with the technical nature of of you know field trials and and um high-end hunt tests. So that's that's what I focus on. And the main reason is first of all, I only have so much time because I'm managing this this hunting operation. Um, but secondly, I believe in the genetics that it's helping produce. Because, and I always tell people this like if you get a grand champion bred with a grand champion, or or even better, you know, a Hall of Fame dog to another Hall of Fame dog, you're guaranteeing that you have the all of the very high-end abilities, again, to do all these technical things, um, to to to uh to be able to stay with these difficult regiment training programs, um, yet have the composure and and um the uh the personality that makes it a pleasure to hunt with. And it's very difficult to get all those together. And that's what what I love about the grand is you cannot pass the grand if you don't have those qualities, period. You're not gonna do it. Especially you're not gonna have a grand champion title because you have to have two passes at the grand to get that that title. So you're just not gonna do it if you have a dog that can't have the, can't maintain composure, and you're not gonna do it if you don't have a dog that's got a great attitude about training that that that that can't handle the rigors of a very difficult training program. So um that's what I why I advocate the grand at such a high level and hold it to such a high level, is it's really dictating the genetics that are out there for my hunting customers. A lot of these other venues, because they are unrealistic and they don't um they don't involve a lot of the other uh uh um elements that occur in the real hunting field, um, they're really not select helping us selectively breed dogs that are capable of doing that. Um and so I personally um I kind of stay away from the bloodlines that are uh all oriented towards doing the whether it's field trials or SRS that don't have that grand title behind them. Not that they're not great dogs, they might be the world's greatest dogs, but I don't know that. I do know if they're out of grand dogs, they have made, they have made the grade, they've passed the test, and I need them to be able to pass. They've proven that their bloodlines um are the right bloodlines to be able to produce the type of dogs that I need to have.
SPEAKER_00:You know, Dan, I I agree with you 100%. Uh doing this podcast, I've learned so much more about the test and trial world, you know, from guys like you being on my show. And I'm I'm learning every day. I I read and listen to everything I can get my hands on. I listen to Chris Rudd's podcast religiously. Uh I'm doing your videos now, we're gonna talk about that more. But I've come with all my studies, and I'm just an I'm very amateur and I'm nowhere near your level. We'll never reach that level. But I've I I'm finding the same thing. That's what I want for me. Everybody's different. If if you want to uh and I've got a field trial, I've got a I've got a son of Floyd, you know, so he's he's a lamped up dog. Roadie Best has actually helped me with that dog right now to work on some stuff. Uh you know, uh I I'm gonna title him and I've hunted with him. But uh, but no, I I think you're 100% right. I I what I'm seeing and and watching and learning as an outsider, as an amateur, uh, I'm seeing that the grand dogs are what I want. And that's why actually that's why I've got this pup uh that that you're very familiar with the bloodlines on, too. So let's that's a good segue, Dan. You uh you know, first of all, I'm gonna tell the listeners, I was actually told by a very well-respected pro trainer that Dan Erke is one of the best guys at building puppy foundation that he knew. And the guy that told me that, uh, I don't think he would mind me saying it's Clark Kingdom. And uh so I listened to guys like that, I listen to guys like Chris and guys like you and Roadie Best, even his wife Kristen. I listen to other people, you know, I tell I learned. So I purchased your retriever foundation's puppy video, puppy program. And I actually got it before I picked up my puppy from Chris Dallas, who she's probably rolling on eight, 11 weeks maybe. And I started watching it then before I even picked her up. And it's feel I seem I feel like I can't watch it enough. Some of the stuff you make it look so simple that I realized, oh, this is really not that simple. I need to watch this over and over. So let's obviously your years of experience has led you to this to develop this program. Tell me how you developed it and why.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, first of all, I did another series like this um for DT systems years ago, but it was much more simplistic. It was called DT the dog. And the reason I did that is um I didn't have the financial wherewithal to pay for it being done, but I recognized that people would drop their dogs off in terrible condition at six months old. And I recognized through you know working with people that had younger dogs that we can prevent a lot of bad problems from occurring. We can prepare the dog a lot better and make a much better student if we start early. And so I started to develop this uh puppy training program um just through trial and error, scientific trial and error. I was a biology major in college, my dad was veterinarian, so everything that I was raised around was very scientific. And I just kept thinking these dogs need to be prepared for all of these exercises which require pressure, et cetera. Um, and um and and and we they we need to create a good training attitude. So I started developing this puppy program. I had it developed to the point where um I needed to get something on video, a video series so my clients at home could prepare their dog and set them up for success. So uh DT Systems provided the the uh the medium or the platform to do a short video series. Unfortunately, it's one of those things where the person's gonna come down, you know, once every three months, and we had to pound out a ton of videos in one day. So I can only do so much. And but I but I did it nonetheless, it helped a lot of people and the the um the level uh of a puppy or the the quality of puppy and their education after we uh we streamlined this video and and would get it to all of our clients, become became became better and better. These puppies were just much better prepared. Um and so it definitely um it made a big it made a big improvement in the um in the puppies that were getting down and it allowed us to do uh more with them. So people were getting a lot more bang for their buck. And um, and I recognized that you know over the years that this this puppy program that I had done for DT, it was good, but it was missing a ton. And I also in oh god, I don't even know how many years that thing's been out, but um, you know, I had a lot more um research and develop and new techniques that I wanted to show. Um so uh through meeting Chris, um I was able to get create this great relationship with him. He's a media guy, and he was able to to uh to set me up with the with the means to be able to to uh to do this puppy video. And so the the main thing is getting those dogs prepared and creating a great attitude about training. So when they come down, it is not this massive culture shock to the dog. They they already understand the language of training, they're already excited about doing it, they're already birdie, they're already retrieving, they already understand leash pressure, um, they already understand all the basic commands that they're gonna get. Um so we have a student that's just ready to rock and roll.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. Now, the as far as the new program that you have that that you and Chris have put together, what what all things did you add that you see needed added on from the previous DT program?
SPEAKER_02:Well, the previous DT program, um aside from some other other frills, um I I was very careful uh on the DT program because I only had so much video to be done, not to include things where I thought people might um not have enough information and put too much pressure on their dog. So anything having to do with pressure, I was extremely careful about. And I I I think it was lacking in in um some of the steps that um that are necessary. Um uh I did I did a little bit of collar conditioning, but again, it was it was nowhere near as extensive. So um I also added um placeboard casting. Uh there's there's just so much that we added to it and and a little level of detail also than the repetition. You know, with the DT the dog series, I would do something and I would explain it to it at a basic level. I'd show a couple examples and move on. Where this new puppy program, you see the actual day-to-day repetition, and you can watch the puppy go from well, you know, while you're doing the same general exercise and slowly adding new information, you can actually watch these puppies pick up the real fine um new idiosyncrasies or the new new um rungs on the ladder, so to speak. You can see each one of those those um increases in knowledge. Whereas with the DT the dog program, again, I there wasn't enough video space for me to include each one of those and to be able to watch that dog develop through the whole scenario.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it it seems like the way I'm going through your program now, and you know, I'm I'm a little behind where I should be for the dog's age because I keep wanting to go back and make sure I've got it down correctly. And I'm trying not to get in a rush because that's my nature. But I I I feel like that I can see where this is going. You know, we're you're giving hand signals to the feedbowl, and I thought, man, when I get out to the field and we're starting to work on blind retreats, this dog, because the foundation that you've taught, it's going to be simple. I mean, the dog's gonna understand back and angle back just from his early puppy stages of feeding. Is that that is, I assume, where it will take me. Hello, this is Kenneth Whipp with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training a retriever. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone will be proud to have when they're blind. Learn where to start, what to do next, and what to do when problems arise. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com to learn how you can train your retriever. I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshen back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy since 2016, and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I I've used it, it's proven and tried, and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com and learn how to train your own retriever. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt, and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply, based in Alabama. Retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit Retriever Training Supply.com to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leases I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leases are and they source them locally. They have anything you want. Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that's right. Well, what what and you had asked me a question I didn't really get the full answer to. You know, one of the things was we you did you had asked is what this new video series has more of. It definitely has more lining and casting drills. So not only like the old DT video had to show your dog hand signals with food bowls. Um and this one has food bowls, it has placeboards uh casting, and it has um what we call fun casting, which involves actually throwing dummies. So there's three different formats for the dog learning um different angles or different views of the same general thing. So they're learning to generalize casting much better uh as well as lining. So, yes, they're gonna understand what the word back means. They're gonna understand what a left and right over and a left to right straight back is, um, and they're gonna understand how to turn pressure off, and they're gonna understand how to think uh in situations that involve um the element of pressure and be in so that's what we're doing. We're teaching a dog that can that can work through problems, a problem-solving dog that understands pressure is not the end of the world. It may be present, and there's usually an easy way to turn that pressure off. And and um if they if they stay with us in focus and use a little thought, they can work their way through a problem. And there's always a positive answer when they do it. And so we're teaching the dog that never that that giving up isn't an option, and that if you put that effort in, you're always gonna get success. So when it comes time for that professional trainer to have the dog and he introduces pressure of different sorts, the dog's already gonna come into it thinking, hey, this is no big deal. I'm not gonna be intimidated by this. I'm just gonna look for the uh the right answer and um and uh give a little effort and I'll be successful. So, you know, the the old-fashioned way that people would get these dogs at six months old and they would just put them right into a formal regimen. And, you know, these I call it when a dog is upside down, an owner hasn't done the right work. The dog has basically learned to avoid any any sort of control situation. The dog has learned to avoid any sort of situation where there could be some sort of pressure or punishment, and um, and then we've got to completely rewire the dog. Um and um this creates a dog that is able to go into those new training scenarios and be and be much more apt to be successful right away.
SPEAKER_00:Dan, what's something that you could do to a dog in the wrong way to cause it to develop an avoidance nature that it wants to avoid pressure? Give an example, because I'm sure I'm afraid I might do that. So I want to do that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, pretty much what everybody does. They give commands without the without any control or or without any forethought. They don't, you know, a good dog handler thinks about what they're going to do with the dog before it happens. And number one, make sure that you have an element of control. Okay, so you see it's with a leash and a check cord. Um, and we don't just give a command without thinking about the course of what's about to about to happen once after we give that command. So we have a game plan. So you never give a command without the ability to make a correction, about without the ability to do something about it. Um, and so people do it all the time. You know, their dog's running around without a leash on and they shout, heal, right? Or or whatever, you know, because they got the dog to come to them with a treat at one point, heal. They think that now when the dog is distracted running across the yard after the neighbor's barking dog, that all of a sudden that's gonna work. And of course, they set themselves up for failure. You know, any logic would say that the dog's not gonna listen to that. And they don't have a leash or a check cord on the dog. The dog just goes about it, does what they feel like doing, um, and they just start a bad habit immediately. Now the dog uh has epic failure training-wise, and gets away with it, gets their positive reinforcement by doing the wrong thing. Um, so anytime that you give your dog any sort of formal command, you you have to be prepared and think about it. And that's why the video series is set up to show you um what the command is, what the positive reinforcement is gonna be when your dog does it right, and what the corrections are gonna be when the dog does it wrong. And so you'll know that going into the into each one of the scenarios, and um, and again, you'll have the you'll you'll it shows the mechanics of how to physically get your dog to do what you're it's supposed to do, and um, and you'll always come out of it with a dog that does what you ask him to do, um, and then gets some sort of positive reinforcement. Because positive reinforcement is when the dog gets what they want for some sort of behavior. And uh that's the most powerful element of dog training is positive reinforcement. Um, and unfortunately, um the real world is is that dogs are not always going to do exactly what they're supposed to do, even if we think we have what they want uh as a positive reinforcement. So we also have to teach the dog that there is some sort of repercussions when they do the wrong thing. Um and that's where um any sort of what we call positive punishment comes in. And that just basically means when a trainer is adds some sort of adds an element in there that the dog doesn't like when he doesn't do the right thing, right? So that would be, for example, the you know, the pinch collar, the e-collar, um, a healing stick, an ear pinch, um, you know, any of those are things we'll call positive punishment, and they are part of dog training process. So we teach the dog that positive punishment is going to be an element, it's not something to fear, it's just a light feeling of pressure that will go away when the dog starts to do the right thing. And again, when the dog is through with this video series, they learn multiple types of pressure or positive or inf positive punishment, and they learn that if if they um give in to that pressure and perform a certain behavior, that pressure is gonna go away immediately and they're gonna get paid somehow. They're gonna get positive reinforcement, right? And um and so we create that good, that positive training attitude. Now the dog says, hey, pressure, who cares? In fact, I'm all about getting a little pressure because I know, first of all, the pressure is gonna go away. It's not gonna be anything intimidating, it's not gonna scare me, it's not gonna make me want to to bolt or go away. It's literally gonna be something that's taught to me that I understand it's gonna go away when I when I perform a certain task properly, and then I'm gonna be immediately rewarded with some positive when I do it. So then the dog's gonna get that pinch collar on, they're gonna uh react to the healing stick for whatever might be uh the the the uh the method of pressure at that point in a positive way. They're gonna say, bring it on, man. This is great. Um, it always has a positive outcome. And I'm looking forward to these turning scenarios. I'm not looking at the the pinch collar like it's gonna deliver some scary, unknown um type of stimuli that I can't turn off and I don't understand. It's all logical and easy to deal with. And um I believe that people that follow this program, whether they're gonna continue and do formal training on their own or whether they're gonna send the dog to a professional trainer, either way, the dog is gonna be much, much better um uh psychologically and just have a nice, easy transition into the next level.
SPEAKER_00:Dan, one of the things you do in your video, and and I'm I'm trying to make it a habit for myself now, is I always be out training a pup, and I never really had a check cord on. And and I see that you use that a lot, and I understand it now. But tell the listeners why that why use a check cord during especially young puppy training.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So this pretty much goes back to what I was talking about earlier. You know, if you give a a command to a dog, you have to have the ability to ensure that if the dog decides not to do that, not to perform that command, that it is not allowed to just freely be disobedient and then seek its own positive reinforcements by doing its own thing. So, for ant for instance, I'll give you two examples. One guy has a check cord, one doesn't. Um so this individual had taken treats with his puppy in the house and taught it the hear command, right? So, and he's had a great result, right? So the dog in the house, because there's nothing better than that treat, um, he says here, and the dog comes flying over to get that treat, right? So now um that individual goes outside and he doesn't have the check cord on his puppy. And he's got his treat, so he figures I'm gonna be fine. You know, the dog always comes to me now. So he gives a dog command, a hear command outside, and the puppy is not interested in the treat at that point. The puppy is interested in the neighbor's dog. So he says here, the puppy just goes running away and spends five minutes chasing up and down the fence after the neighbor's dog, and is having a lovely time. So now the dog's listened to a command, been completely disobedient, and gotten positive reinforcement by doing the wrong thing. On the contrary, the person that had the check cord in the puppy says here to the dog, and just like the first and since the dog says, I don't want the treat right now, I'm gonna go take off after the neighbor's dog. He's able to stop the dog with the check cord. He's able to give it a bunch of tugs, start running backwards, kind of make him look himself look attractive, get the treat down. Now the dog knows that he's not gonna go over to the neighbor's dog, and he says, you know what, the treat, I guess, is the best thing at this point. He takes the treat from the handler, and minimally, minimally, the dog doesn't learn to go be completely disobedient. And um in in in the in the best light, the dog will come take the treat and learns, hey, you know what? It's impossible not to listen. I might as well listen because there's still always a payment at the other end. And it and um it wash out the dogs um by using uh an element of control like that. You're able to wash out the dog's um conscious focus on other distractions and other ideas of things that they might do other than listen to it. So it's able to from day one show the dog, hey, those other things are not available. Those other forms of positive reinforcement, they're not available. So don't even, it's not worth trying. It never works. Right? And so we again we call those dogs that have been trained the wrong way upside down dogs. And let me tell you from a professional standpoint, and I'm sure other pros that are watching this would completely agree. When you get a dog that's detrained or upside down, that actually um is used to um avoiding control and is used to getting positive reinforcement by not listening, um, because Because people simply a lot of times it's ignorant, they just don't know to put a key to do the puppy training properly. But when we get those dogs at six month old, it's so much harder on those dogs, first of all. It's a giant culture shock. Um and it also takes us probably two months longer to get the same results. And we can do it, but we just have to start completely over. And we have to retrain, or we have to eliminate bad habits. And eliminating bad habits, as you know, takes a long time. They don't just go away overnight. So we we have to kind of completely flip that dog psychologically upside down and get him thinking the right way. It just takes time. So that's money out of their pocket, and it's you're never gonna get the same result. It can be close, but you're never gonna get the same result. You you I call it promoting a criminal mentality.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right? You don't have that check cord. And if you decide to give that command, you're leaving it up to a completely chaotic um or unforeseen result. You don't know what's gonna happen. And typically, most of the time, the dog is gonna gravitate towards eventually learning, hey, you don't have any control of me. I'm gonna go do whatever the heck that I please when you give me a command.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation, and I've got to tell you guys about something that I've gotten hooked on lately. It's Folicious. These are gourmet instant faux and ramen bowls that actually taste like the real deal. When I'm out in the field all day, and the last thing I want is to sell for bland camp food. Folicious is what I go to. It's authentic, the flavor, it's real ingredients, it's ready in just minutes. It's perfect for hunters, fismen, or anyone on the go. And you can get them over 1900 Walmarts nationwide, your local HEB here in Texas. Or you can just go online at folicious.com. Trust me, once you try it, you'll keep a few stocked in in your bag and your pack pack or for your next adventure. I just want to say this, I want to add this to this commercial because I know the owners of this company. They've hunted on my ranch. Uh he and I were actually met in Colorado on a hunting trip uh that was a real adventure. They are true hunters. They've hunted the ranch, you know, and I've I've hunted with them. And Anna, she is just amazing. She's the one that came up with this idea. They were both on the shark tank. They are amazing people. So it's I love seeing people like this have a business. And I just had to say that in addition to the commercial because I really believe in the product and I believe in the people that made the product. Be sure and go to folicious.com or go to Walmart or H E B and try their product. I promise you you will like it. I love this. You know, and the this segment of advice that you've just given would have saved me lots of headache in my early years. Uh but it but you're basically having to rewire the dog, right? When when you're correcting these, once that dog learned how to positively reinforce himself by some other means, you're trying, you're having to take this dog and rewire it. I just for lack of better words, but program. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:No, I think I think rewire is exactly that because mental channels, you know, although they're not like a direct wire, they're very similar, you know. They they have they literally go through neurons, right? And there's there there is there is a a very that's a that's a good example. And so, yes, you know, you have what ends up happening is the dog has some sort of of stimuli that's presented in front of it, it has a decision to make, and um, and that all goes through a mental channel. And we literally have to make new channels. We have to say, hey, that one doesn't work anymore, it will never work. And we have to prove that to them through hundreds and hundreds of repetitions. That mental channel doesn't work. This mental channel does work, and then we again you have to prove it to the dog because he the owner proved it the opposite way, right? So it takes it's it's trust me, it doing it the right way prevents you. You have a you can have a completely different dog if you do it the right way versus the wrong way.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'll I'll tell you something. I'm doing I've got several questions today, and I'm trying to not kill you with questions, but and this is personal advice. So I've been posting some videos, a few, uh not many, just a few videos of me training Dallas, my puppy, who uh the puppy you know well. And uh I've gotten to the point where I'm so afraid of not doing everything correctly that I almost avoid training some days when I don't have time to go watch your video and then apply what I'm learning. Um because I'd rather delay the training a little bit than to train wrong. But it's just causing a crazy skin right now, and it won't always be this way, but these few weeks, uh I'm I'm just doing a lot of hunting and a lot of content stuff.
SPEAKER_02:And so is that so let's let me let me let me attack this from this angle. Um, number one, you're probably right. Um that and I wouldn't say to not spend time with your dog, but I would say don't try to venture out and do something with your dog from a training standpoint that you really don't fully understand yet. So I would say you're better off to keep doing things that you know you're good at with your puppy um while you're busy, just you know, short little sessions, and then continue socializing your dog. So the thing you don't want to do is just go, oh God, I'm afraid to do anything. I'm just gonna keep them in a crate, and and all they're gonna see is the crate in the backyard. That's bad because you're you're breaking one of the big rules of dog training is you have to socialize your dog. You got to get your dog just to get out to see people, places, and things. And if you don't do that, you can really, really cause damage to the finished product of your dog. You know, think about your dog's brain like wet concrete. You only have so much time to get the dog to understand certain things: people, places, things, noises, right? Anything that your dog is going to see when it's an adult, it needs to see while it's a puppy. So be be careful that you continue to socialize. But what from a mechanical like obedience training and retrieving standpoint, just keep it simple. There's nothing wrong with that. You can come back with a dog that's a little bit older. And remember, you know, we we we set the video up with time guidelines. And that's just to give an idea of if you start early, this is in general what to what you can accomplish and when you can accomplish it. The reality is, and I tell this to my my trainers at work for me hey, if you get a dog that comes in at six months old, you're still going to do the puppy training. You're going to do every step of the puppy training. Because otherwise, it's not fair to the dog. You're expecting him to perform these tasks at a higher level when they haven't really been properly introduced. So, you know, you can take a two-year-old dog, believe it or not, and do these puppy training steps. I do it all the time. If I get a dog, and I will literally get a dog occasionally, doesn't happen much anymore because most people come to me and they say, What do I do with my puppy? And we set him up with the right pup, and we set him up with the video series. But occasionally, I'll get somebody that comes in that either adopts a dog from a situation where there was zero training, or um, they've just been introduced uh to hunting and they've got a two-year-old dog, for instance, and um they they've just learned about training, about and they come and they just say, Hey, you know, I've got this dog, I did nothing with it. Can you evaluate it? And we when we do the evaluation, we look for instincts, right? We look for instincts and potential. And um there's a lot of times it will take a two-year-old dog again that's that's that's kind of detrained and upside down. And if they've got the core instincts, we can make a dog out of them. And we do exactly what I just said. We go back to all these basic training techniques and we do it. So don't be too afraid, like if you're not like exactly following that video week for week, and um from an age standpoint with a dog, that you're that you're in trouble. Don't don't fret. Um, all these things can be done um, you know, later on if necessary. But don't stop getting your dog out, see people, places, and things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I've been walking him in different scenarios, uh, even on the hunting grounds that I'm going to, you know, and getting him used to that. Uh, you know, and then also because of your videos and other people, like Ben Randall, people that I've I've watched and studied, I try to I do make every feeding event a training event. So uh and I'm I did it this morning. But no, that helps, and I'm glad uh glad you told me that. Um next thing I was thinking about too, I was just thinking about in the in the future on this puppy training with the this particular pup. When you're starting, let's just say it's four months from now and you're training a new command. Would would you also, even though this dog has been, you know, step by step in your method for say three to four months roughly, and now we're getting ready to go to the next step, would would you still put a check court on the I haven't looked at the videos that far in advance, but would you still use a check court on a new a new training command?
SPEAKER_02:Well, absolutely. I mean, so so the the first step with check cord is desensitizing the dog to the check cord, right? Letting it drag around and get used to it. Hey, it's part of life. Um and then the second step is actually starting to use it for you know obedience, obedience um reinforcement, let's just say. Um, so initially, puppy, when it's little, is just dragging a cord around, getting used to the fact that, hey, this thing's attached to me, it's part of life, it's not gonna go away, and it's no big deal, right? And then we start manipulating the puppy with it and actually, you know, using it in correspondence with treats and you know, teaching the dog obedience commands, etc., with it. So essentially that check cord is gonna be on your dog until it's collar conditioned. And then the e-collar is gonna take the place of that check cord, if that makes sense. So you're you you if you do this right, your dog is never gonna be without some sort of element of control there. Now, is it is it do you have a check cord on your dog every minute of every day? No, you don't. You know, it obviously you can let your dog run around the house with no leash and check cord on. You just have to be careful when you don't have the leash or check cord, not to make a mistake and you know, give a command when you know that that puppy might not listen. So, for instance, I'll tell somebody that, hey, you know, of course your puppy can run around that the house, you know, when he's supervised uh without without a leash on. Just don't make the mistake going here when he's across the room and distracted. If you want to to work on obedience at that point, um walk over to him with a treat in his hand, coax the dog to sit, get the dog to take the treat, put your leash on the dog, and then go do your obedience. So what you what you do want to avoid with with regards to not having a leash or a check court on is situations where you know there's going to be a lot of distractions going on, and or where your pup could be put into a danger into a dangerous scenario, right? So, you know, a guy, for instance, brings his puppy to work and uh there he works in the city at a shop and the shop door's open. And uh, you know, instead of doing it right, where the dog's either in a crate or he's supervised with a little leash on, you know, he's letting the puppy run all over the place when he's busy, and all of a sudden, you know, some sort of distraction happens outside of that shop door and the dog kicks off and gets hit by a car, right? Those are the scenarios where you should always have a leash or a check cord on your dog because obviously you're you're preventing the dog from getting himself hurt.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, it's Kenneth Whipp of the Gun Dog Nation Podcast, and I'm very proud to have as a new sponsor Cable Games that's built G-A-N-G-Z. Brendan Landry at Cable Gains has developed, in my opinion, and I have, and I'm a customer, the best tie-out systems on the market. They're easy to pack, easy to store. They can cull up just like an extension cord. They use premium galvanized steel cable coated with durable, UV resistant PVC coating. The branding can make custom products, anything you want that's related to a dog tie out system or a cable system or a way to safely secure your dog. They've even made a system that works with a bicycle so you can go and exercise your bicycles and have your dog running along with you. It's it would be impossible for me to describe to you all the different custom applications they have, so just go to their website at cable games.com and check it out. They make dog tie outs a way to safely secure your dog. If you're at a field trial, a hunt test, count competition, whatever that might be, these guys make the best product on the market. Check it out for yourself, cablegangs.com. I like that. Um the thing, the next question is so uh I have actually been through the Napo Po schools. There's a silver and gold school. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. Uh it's a dog training school, and it's used a lot by military type trainers, canine stuff, police dogs, whatever. Anyway, the reason I say all that, you know, in that training, I was trained to use a clicker. And I posted a video training my new puppy Dallas from Chris, and Chris texted me and just said, Hey, why why are you using the trick, why are you using a clicker? And he I'm just paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly how he said it. And he was being he wasn't being critical or criticizing me. He he was just explaining, and I said, Well, hey, you know, he mentioned using just using the word good, and then he went into an explanation of why. But he again, he wasn't being critical, he was actually being helpful and uh and and not trying to make fun of me or anything like that. And I told him said, Hey, what what's your method? He told me that he uses good, not a clicker, and he told me why, and he told me he gave me examples. So this is a great time because you know I get asked questions like this from listeners. So I want to hear Dan Erky's, you know, explanation uh or advice as to just using the word good and why you do that uh as opposed to clicking around.
SPEAKER_02:Well Right, right. Well, first of all, um I don't want to have to carry a clicker around with me all the time. That's the I mean, to be honest with you, that's the main reason. Um and and um I've always had great success not using the clicker. Now, do I think the clicker is a is is a great idea for the average guy? Yeah, because the reality of it is look, uh the clicker is a noise, okay? It's just a noise. It could be a click, you could use any sort of noise that you could readily reproduce with the correct timing, right? And um for the average guy, it's great because they don't have to regulate their vocal tone. Um it just that that's the same noise every time, and all it is is is it's classical conditioning, okay? Meaning that we've we're making an association between um the dog hearing a noise and knowing that there's some sort of positive reinforcement coming. And therefore knowing that whatever they're doing when they hear that noise is a is something that's that pleases you as a handler or is going to result in something positive for them, right? And so when I looked at it originally, I thought you know, I I I I viewed other people doing it, and I said, Well, so how have I been able to get success without that? Well, because I I I just use the word good. Or whatever word you want to use, I mean you could make a funny noise if you wanted to. The critical thing is whenever the dog is receiving that positive reinforcement initially, you're making that noise. And then eventually you use that noise when the dog is doing something uh that pleases you or they have the correct behavior. So, again, in my program, I just use the word good, right? Give the dog a treat, good, good. And eventually that word good means to the dog, you've made the right choice and you are going to be rewarded at one point. Okay, right. Eventually initially, we use something called continuous positive reinforcement, which means every time the dog does the right behavior, we give them positive. Every time, every time, every time. And then as the dog's behavior becomes more consistent, we start going to variable positive reinforcement, which means only so often do we give that positive reinforcement. So as the dog behavior becomes more solid, we come, we back off on the exact consistency of when we give that positive reinforcement, and we only give it a select few times. In the beginning, it's a few more, it's more. We're giving them more positive than we are not giving it. And eventually, it becomes only once in a great while that they get it. Um, so and let's talk about that real quick because this is pretty fascinating. I always thought to myself, how does that work? Variable positive reinforcement. Why does that even work? Because once the dog realizes, hey, I might not be getting that treat once in a while, or I might not get be getting that bird once in a while, uh, not every time, the dog thinks I'm not gonna get it every time that I perform the command. Well, why do they why do they continue to perform that command? And why does it work so well? Then I started thinking about human psychology, started thinking about myself, like why does that work so well? I'm always go back to like evolution and and and like back when humans had to survive in the wild. Why would why would that change our behavior? Why would it work so well? And I started thinking about it. Think about fishermen and deer hunters, right? Do they get a fish every time that they put their line in the water? No. Do you get a giant buck every time that you go archery hunting? No. But isn't it kind of strange that if you got a fish once in a while, how that it's almost even more because if you got to get fish every time, it's almost boring, right? If you got a buck every time, it would lose its effect. But isn't it interesting how when you get it once in a while, it makes that part of your brain that just gets dedicated and wants to work harder and put more effort in. It's almost like it triggers an instinct that just wants to work harder to get that. And so that's why I think it works. It's pre-wired into our system from a survival standpoint. That if you if you get that positive once in a while, you can get it, but you have to work at it, right? So that's how that works. So then we start getting that, that we start lessening the amount of time that we give that dog the positive on a consistent basis. But we it's there enough so that dog will always come back. For instance, you know, when we we do the sit command, every once in a great while we give the dog a treat. Every once in a while we give the dog a retrieve when it sits. And so it knows that it that there's there's always something to work for in there. And eventually you'll get that positive if you just stay consistent.
SPEAKER_00:I like that. Dan, you know, uh being on social media, I don't I'm sure you're on there too. And you know, you always get, you know, it's like armchair quarterbacks, right? You always get these people with their opinions and and want to criticize others. I I've got a members group on Facebook. I'm I'm telling y'all this for a point, I promise. I have a members group on Facebook, and and a lot of people post stuff on there, and we want to create a safe place for people to have ideas and and maybe even advice and not get ridiculed or criticized for it. So I had actually had some people on there just really criticizing using treats. If you're using a treat, you're not training a dog, and so on, right? What's your response to that? Uh huh. I I'd love to hear.
SPEAKER_02:Well, well, I I'll tell you this. So when I started, the old school in dog training said exactly what you just said, right? So for years, I I used um, you know, verbal positive reinforcement. I used uh what I call activity positive reinforcement, meaning like if the dog does something good, I get I let them do something they want to do. Um, I use about every positive reinforcement other than treats, and I used a lot of pressure, right? And uh I had results, okay? I I had results. Um but then I had a client bring a puppy down, and he said for an evaluation, he said, Hey, I just want to show you. I've been working with this lady down the road from me. And yeah, he goes, I know, I know you probably don't want to see this, but I just want you to show you what I've been doing with this dog. Now, this this was a little Springer puppy, okay? And this puppy was probably four months old, and he's uh he said, Well, I've been working on sit, heal, and recall and down. He pulls this puppy out. And at four months old, this dog in an open room, just dragging a little leash, would come to him, sit down, go lay down, um, and walk at heel perfectly. And my first instinct was, ah, this damn tree trainers, you know, everything everybody else says. And the guy went home and I thought, now Dan, you're a scientist? You need to throw out everything you've that you've heard and and and look at what you've just observed. Here's a four-month-old dog that understands the verbal, the whistle, um, and has a tremendously positive uh attitude about performing these commands. Okay. And then I started thinking about this. I watched Mike Lardy's videos when I was probably 22 years old, and I knew nothing. Okay. And I might watch Mike Lardy's videos, and he's throwing all this technical lingo about all of his dogs out here, and I'm going, wow, I'm so confused. I have no idea. But I'm gonna keep watching just but and and he's talking about using pressure with the collar and the healing stick and all these other different methods. And then I'm watching his dogs, his finished dogs, because they showed you know the finished product. And I'm looking at the dogs, and I've been raised around dogs. I rolled around on the carpet from the time I was a baby with puppies, and my dad's a veterinarian. I was I've been in contact with dogs my whole life. I know what their signals are, I know what they look like when they're happy, I know what they look like when they're sad, I know what they look like when they're aggressive because I lived with them. All kinds of different breeds of dogs from the day that I was pretty much born till till then. And I looked at Lardy's finished dogs and I said, hmm, that's an awfully happy creature there, and he looks pretty damn interested in what he's doing. And I said, I know one thing those dogs, that pressure is not interrupting the finished product, which is that dog wants to work bad. He's excited about something that he's looking forward to do. So all these pressure things, I'm sure they work. But the core bottom line motivating factor of all of it is that dog has instincts and he wants to express them. He wants to go after the bird. He's just been taught to do it a certain way. And that's what really made me realize. Well, wait, what is that? What is that desire? What is that that desire to go? What does it really equate to? It's positive reinforcement. That dog is doing things a certain way because he knows he's gonna get that bird. And that bird is an activity positive reinforcement. So then I said to myself, well, if that's the finished product, and that's really the motivating factor why that dog gets up every day and wants to work, is because that motivating pie in the sky factor, if I'm gonna get that bird, is there, and that's why he's taking all this regimented training and he's doing what he does, then positive reinforcement is really the ultimate guiding light motivating tool that we have. So why don't we embrace that when we have a puppy and teach them that if they perform these commands from the time they're puppies, that there is that motivating factor. Now, here's the critical thing. We're not only using that, okay? We're teaching the dog from an early age, using the treat to help teach the dog what they what they're expected to do, and the fact that there's always a motivating factor in there. And then we're backing it up with what we call avoidance training, where the dog learns that if they don't do it, there's some sort of repercussion. And we're teaching that from the day one, okay? So our pendulum isn't all the way over to one side, oh, we only use positive reinforcement. Okay, our pendulum is centered, okay? Our dog knows that if they do something right, there's a great chance they're gonna get something positive. Our dog knows if they do something wrong, there's a great chance that there's gonna be repercussions. Think about any successful animal or person that you've ever been exposed to. How many successful people in this world, successful people, have you ever met that haven't had hard knocks at one point or another? Seriously, how many people that you respect? I bet you it's zero. How many well-trained animals have never had a repercussion of a pull on the leash or a nick on the collar? I would venture to guess zero. And that's because the real world that has carved all of these entities, humans, dogs, elephants, any animal that can use its brain.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, it's Kenneth Witt with the Gundog Nation podcast, and we are so proud to be partnered with the National Shoot to Retrieve Association, also known as Nastra. NASTA has a common love for producing the best bird dogs possible. It's a great community that builds and bonds everlasting friendships. I've actually got to meet a lot of the NASA members and who's taken me hunting and some other grouse hunting and stuff in different places. So I can honestly say I'm a member and I'm proud to be partnered with them. NASTRA hosts national and regional field trials that emphasize the working ability of bird dogs. They have been around for over 50 years. There's a reason that NASTR has been around that long. Please check them out at www.nstra.org. And belong and support your local NASDAQ club. They do have national and regional events, and it's a good place to help learn to be a better dog trainer, a better dog owner, and to compete with your bird dog. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:But my point is that even a wild animal is going to either get positive reinforcement when it does what it wants, okay? Goes to the right place and hunts the rabbit in the right place, it gets a rabbit. Goes to the wrong place, not only does it get might not get the rabbit, but it also might get itself in trouble, right? Yes. Might get into a bee's nest, and the bee's gonna give him positive punishment. It's gonna teach him to go away. So it's part of any successful animal that lives in the real world is gonna deal with all of those elements. And it's what carves. So we keep our pendulum centered. So my answer to the treat there, the treat isn't the only answer. It's it's a training aid that helps us move the dog to the next level faster and keep a better attitude. Eventually, there's no treats. Okay? Eventually these dogs are not walking to the line going, I need a treat to want the bird. No, the retrieve and the activity of working replace the treat as positive reinforcement. That's what that so that's my answer. If you want to keep going along, believing that using treats are wrong, you know, that's that's great. I mean, I I respect your decision, go ahead. But I believe in my heart, through a lot of experimenting and knowing that I used to do it the other way, that training with treats is um allows probably up to four times the speed of learning.
SPEAKER_00:The basics. That's my thoughts, then I I think that I'm definitely not a pro or an expert, but I think, yeah, you can train your dog without treats, but you can highly accelerate that learning with treats. That's my humble opinion.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And now if you're not backing it up with the the appropriate uh avoidance training methods, i.e. pressure on, pressure off, then obviously it's not going to work either. So, you know, you have to preface it again. The pendulum needs to be centered. You have to use both, and then you have to phase the treats out.
SPEAKER_00:This is this is great. You know, uh Dan, I was uh just thinking of something too. Like, you know, there's so many retriever podcasts, retriever trainers, retriever breeders, it's definitely dominates the dog hunting, the gun dog world. And and I on my show I try to to cover all breeds. Uh and actually your methods, people, even though your your program is called retriever foundations, but these are foundations that can be used on any dog, any gun dog, upland waterfowl. You know, people need to know that, right? Uh it's not just a retriever training methods. There are
SPEAKER_02:I think that that you're 100% right. Whether you're training just an obedience dog that's going to live in the house and go on walks with you, whether you're training, pre-training for a field trial dog, whether you're training for the grand, whether you're training just a uh you know your waterfowl companion, um, you know, you're getting your dog set up to be uh an upland champion, um their foundation that you have to use no matter what. You have to get a good sit, you have to get a good here, you have to get a good um place command or a kennel command. Um you have to get your dog interested in retrieving. All those are elements of that that everybody's gonna use. And so um, you know, what I'm excited about is this initial round, you know, of advertisement. We really much, pretty much did Chris Rudd's um podcast audience for and and my Facebook audience for getting the information out there about this series. Um, but I'm really excited about you know, six months from now when the first uh group of people have trained their dog all the way through it to to to um to hear their um their opinion of of what they got, and then also to get this uh to get this uh information out to people all the way across the retriever board across the country, because this is the type of thing, I'll tell you this. If if all I did was train dogs, and I wasn't um and and and really at my core was just, hey, I want to train dogs at the finish level. That's all I really care about. Um, I don't have time to do sessions with people when they're with their puppies, but I want to have the best dogs I can, and I want to give the dogs that come to my program the best chance of success, and I want to have the smoothest transition and the easiest time with those dogs while I'm training them. I would recommend everybody to buy this video because those dogs, I I would know that those dogs have a really not good foundation coming in and that our attitude is good about training, and that's gonna make my life easier, and it's gonna make the the owner's life easier and it'll make the dogs' life easier. Yes. And you know what? If if all this does is make it easier on the dogs, I'm still happy because I know for sure that people do this with their dogs, they're gonna go through force fetch, they're gonna go through collar conditioning, they're gonna go through um uh the the all of the difficult force of the pile, all the all these steps that involve pressure, they're gonna have much easier time with them and they're gonna be a happier animal altogether. And for that, that's that's worth its weight in gold to me, knowing that it's gonna make the dog's lives happier and better.
SPEAKER_00:And and you know, just going through the steps that I'm going so far in your program, you know, you see that your dog is starting to learn to learn. You know, that's right. He's thinking, a pup, a little pup, is thinking, you know, and you can just watch that light turn on and click when he gets it, and it's a great feeling, especially an amateur guy like me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, and what I think I and I gotta look back, and I said this on the video because I just done research again. I believe I believe what I've read is that the dogs learn the fastest between the time they're born and the time at four months old, something like that.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, and it was really profound to me, and it totally made sense because the more that I play with puppies, the more I realize you know how quickly they pick up on concepts. Um, the critical thing is you just you have to at no matter what dog you have, you have to go at that dog's pace. Yes. You can't exceed the pace of the dog's learning, and that's why we we made very general um time um references in the videos, because again, you might have a dog that that goes three times as fast as another one. And it does not mean that the finished product is not going to be very similar with both dogs. Um, they just have different personalities, and they also, their physical and mental development is different. You know, litter to litter, you can see whether and some dogs are literally like at certain points of their development, their bodies are spending so much energy growing and allocating all of their energy into literally physically growing that they're kind of plodding around and they don't look like they're interested in much. And when that happens, you just have to back off and just let them grow up a little bit. Um, you'll get other puppies, it seems the whole time. They're just zippity, go, go, go, give me more, give me more, give me more. And those dogs, you just keep going. Um and so, yeah, that's that's that's another thing that was probably one of the hardest things for me to do when we did the video is decide how we can figure this with regards to uh you know chunking the information up so people could get a relative idea of where their dog should be. Um and that's what I hope I hope people make sure that they do as going through, just as we recommend. Hey, get get one thing done before you move to the next, and you'll always be fine.
SPEAKER_00:Now, Dan, being a I assume that you're working since you are running a managing a hunt preserve, that you you have to, I would assume, train upland dogs too or work upland dogs as well, correct? Yeah. Oh, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:And one of the things that you know people always ask me, well, what what's your forte? You know, what because they if they're if we're gonna present like a video series to somebody, they're gonna say, Well, why would I buy it from this guy? What is what does this guy do that makes him better? Well, the first thing that I would say that it has helped me be who I am and has allowed me to to build this video series that I've had is the fact that I run a hunting preserve, and our success many times is based on the success of the dog um finding the birds, retrieving the birds, and just being a sick a great, great hunting dog. And so I my methods have always been geared towards producing that at a real level, right? These guys are literally going out in our fields and they're coming back, and they're either going to tell me their dog did great and found a bunch of birds, or their dog found nothing, or didn't listen, or whatever it might be. So, you know, we've we've always had that as our quality control. Um, and we've educated I've educated one of the things that we do differently that I've noticed over the years at our program is we have a pretty extensive owner education um portion of our program. But a lot of energy goes into actually training the owners to handle their dogs. And um, in doing that, we've had to the trials and tribulations of educating people, learning what it's like to teach the dog, that person to handle the dog, what works, what doesn't work. Um, you know, the sequence of the when to train that owner to do what with the dog. So we've we've literally like part of our our our basics program, our four our initial four-month program is the person drops the dog off, the dog's here for a month, and then every two weeks they come for a session. And on that session, we're demonstrating what the dog will do, but then we're also putting the leash in the owner's hand and we're teaching the owner how to handle their dog. Um so when they leave, they're a working team rather than this great dog with an owner that has no idea what they're doing.
SPEAKER_00:It's so important. It's like someone handing you the keys to an airplane, but you've never been trained how to uh I think it's very important, and I still think I need training as a handler myself, even in hunt test situations. You know, I'm I'm learning as I go.
SPEAKER_02:Um Dan, I would assume you've trained a lot of different breeds, not just retrievers, or is that probably every every different hunting breed you can think of, and then I've trained a bunch of dogs that aren't hunting to hunting breeds to hunt as well. You know, um as I said, I started in uh 1997, believe it or not. And um in the beginning, I trained anything that anybody brought me. Um, and you know, running a business, you know how it is. You know, you gotta you gotta make ends meet. And if somebody brought me a dog and I thought I could make something out of them, I would do it. And uh and I learned a lot doing that. Um, I learned a ton doing that. In fact, it uh I'm I'm really happy that it happened that way because it made me a better trainer to take these dogs that aren't you know genetically cut out and and learn how to use alternative methods to get these dogs to do what I want them to do. I mean, I've trained German shepherds to be upland dogs, um yeah, all kinds of crazy stuff over the years.
SPEAKER_00:Dan, what's in my opinion in all your years' experience? What is the most intelligent breed, in your opinion? That you've that you've worked with?
SPEAKER_02:Poodle. Standard poodle. Yeah, yeah, they're one of the they're one they're one of the smartest dogs. Um field trial labs, incredibly intelligent. Um, if you get the right the old, some of the old world breedings of the field trial breedings were really just just high go power, no brains. You know, they run through a brick wall, take pressure up the gills. But those days are over with. The the the nature of the tests now are so technically advanced that the modern-day field trial dog now is one of incredible intelligence, super high drive, but also usually fairly sensitive to pressure um and and and much more biddable. They're a real thinking animal. Um and so they they they score right up there on on uh intelligence and speed of learning. Um they sometimes have a high level of independence. So if you're not a good trainer and you don't uh keep that leash in check court, and you don't, if you're not careful with your puppy, they can outsmart you very quickly and they can learn the wrong way. They can get that criminal mentality um and and circumvent the training methods. Um and and with going back to the the good starts, if you get a good start with your dog and you teach it that it's fun to train and they're always going to get something positive by following through the training program, you create that good attitude and you avoid that dog again, getting that criminal mentality and trying to seek positive. And those field trial, those really smart dogs, if you're not careful, they can they can really outsmart you and figure out how to be criminals. Uh, but at the same time, if they're if they're trained properly from day one, they can be in absolutely incredible um teamwork players.
SPEAKER_00:Dan, what involvement in the retriever breed have you seen over the last 30 years? What what changes have you seen in the breed itself as far as the lab? Purina Proplan. Here at Gundog Nation, we use Purina Proplan for our dogs. We actually use the Sport Performance Edition, which is 30% protein and 20% fat, the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s for their joints. It also contains uh amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics that's guaranteed to have live probiotics and eat serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance, and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purian Pro Plan Dog Food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purian has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use it, and we are so proud to be sponsored by Purian of Dog Food. When you're getting ready to go on your next hunting trip, make sure you pack the most efficient and reliable ammunition on the market. Myra Ammunition brings you the most diverse loads on the market. Myra's patented stacked load technology is the epitome of efficiency. Two shot sizes stack together to create the most diverse and efficient line of shot shells in the industry. It doesn't matter what flyway, what state, or what the weather, the standard remains the same. At Myra, reliable loads that perform in any condition every single time. We're proud to have Myra Ammunition as a sponsor for Gun Dog Nation.
SPEAKER_02:Um I would say that definitely intelligence has been selectively bred in a much better way than it was, I think, in in the past. In the past, you know, remember, I'm I'm like uh I started when Mike Lardy was very popular, okay? Um, and I think a lot of the bloodlines before Mike Lardy came around, and I say Mike Lardy, of course, Mike Lardy organized, to my knowledge, organized a bunch of other really great trainers' methodologies. That's and then excelled in applying them with his dogs, right? So I'm not saying that Mike Lardy invented these methods. I don't think that's the case at all. But I think right in that general time frame, um, the really good trainers were starting to put together what we see now as the modern training methodologies. Training at that point was beginning to become set up for a real thinking dog rather than just more crude training methods where only a real kind of knuckle-headed fire-breathing dragon could get through it. So, since that period to now, I think that we've the training methodologies have become much better, and especially that since the cell phone came out, um, and people have been making YouTube videos and whatnot, the training's readily available. So I think those great training methods um they help the more intelligent dog excel faster. And um, where before, maybe that dog, because the training methods were more crude, that dog would just turn off. He would say, I don't understand this, too much pressure. I quit. Now we can take those dogs that was just a little bit more sensitive and a little bit more thinkers, and we can get them to excel. So you're seeing a lot more of that, I think, in in today's breedings. Um we're breeding dogs that can take more pressure at the same time, too. They can think through pressure. Um that that really just goes like this. Look, whatever your program is, your the dogs that are they're gonna excel are ones that just naturally do well in those programs. So, you know, the modern methods, they involve a little bit of pressure with the e-collar. They involve a dog that um that, if they're going to be exceling it, has to learn a lot at a fair, fairly fast rate and keep a good attitude. So we're selectively kind of weeding out those dogs with the that couldn't that couldn't deal with that. So we're we're really making a super dog. Now, what I don't like about what's happening, and now that the methods that are are much more refined, is we can take a dog that has relatively zero natural pickup, hold, and carry, okay? Meaning that the dog's natural instinct, not trained, but natural instinct to go out and grab something and want to bring it back instinctually back to that owner and sit down and hold it without chewing on it and mauling the bird, that's being bred out because we all have force fetch, right? So if that dog has got everything but that natural pickup, hold, and carry, we don't care anymore because we force fetch and it's over with. We just mechanically show it that it has to, and as long as it's got general prey drive and desire to go get the dummy, then we can handle all the rest. And so that's where like the British British lab invasion has come in. They don't use as many force fetching techniques, they don't use the e-collar, so their dogs naturally typically naturally will retrieve better. Um, however, those dogs don't aren't able to take the pressure as well either. So they're like two different worlds. And um but I've watched us selectively breed out natural retrieve, and that part of it kind of sucks. You know, when I was when I was watching my dad train when I was a kid, he had these golden retrievers, and he didn't even know what force fetch meant. If the dog didn't retrieve, you just didn't breed it, right? You just you give it away to some little old lady that wants a pet and you get another one, right? And so his dogs, I mean, of course he he trained them as well, but those dogs all had natural retrieve. Like you'd throw something and they didn't even know why they were doing it. They'd run over there and grab it and come back and with their wagon tail, like, look what I got, boss. Aren't you happy with me? And I'm just seeing a lot of that bred out. It's kind of sad that it that it is, but it's also it's it's just um, for lack of better words, it's a product of of the of of today's rigorous training and testing, right? Yeah. Um, because you know, that dog that had the natural retrieve instinct, he might not have the the marking ability. He might not have the courage, he might not have the ability to take pressure, right? He might not have the intelligence. And and you know, to get a dog that's gonna excel in the in in the modern high pressure, and I say high pressure just because there's so much that is expected out of these dogs. Um and it just keeps getting worse. I mean, you go to these, whether it's a master test or whether it's the SRS, they're just continuing come to come up with new ideas to challenge these dogs. It's like, wow. And of course, there we come up with new training methodologies to make them better at it. Yes. And so, yeah, it's it's it's it's gonna be interesting 20 years from now to see what these dogs are capable of doing.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. And once I start getting more familiar with SRS and SRS training, you know, the dogs have to just take so much to get to that level. Uh I'm like you, I'm I'm curious to see. Dan, a guy made a comment to me the other day, very knowledgeable guy, and I I've thought about this while we've been talking. I'd love to hear your uh your thoughts on this on this statement. So this guy I was talking to, uh he hunts, he he waterfowl hunts uh way up north on the border. Uh and so it's harsher conditions than you would be duck hunting in Arkansas, right? It's cold. So he switched to a chess, and uh he had a hard time finding a really good chess that's not aggressive, you know, because you hear those kind of things. But uh yeah, I do. I know that very well. Yeah, yeah, and and he he says that he's gotten some good ones. And but his thoughts were from what he's seeing, it's just interesting. Stuff like this makes me think, because I drive around as a dog nerd, um that we are breeding uh, you know, now we've got the gentleman's dog, the in the house dog lab that's you know sitting in front of the fireplace, and that maybe now we are breeding softer dogs. Uh because, you know, back in the day our dogs were outside animals and you know, they hunted, they were in the cold and in the in the environment and the conditions, and you know, now that's frowned upon. But uh do you think what what's your thoughts about that statement?
SPEAKER_02:You're a hundred percent right. Again, it has to do with with the selective breeding process, right? So the selective breeding process is basically involves hey, what do we want our dogs to do now? Are they doing it well? Yes or no. If they're doing it well, we breed them well. You know, a lot of guys might say, I've I mean, I've had plenty of these guys that raise dogs and that's all they do is hunt tests. They don't even hunt them, right? So they never they never went out when it's 30 degrees and there's ice all over the water and and and check to see how many retrieves their dog will do before he wusses out and wants to go home. Yeah, right? Yeah. I've I've had many times that I go out with a master hunter or a grand hunting retriever champion in the blind, and the dog quits because it's cold. Yeah, it happens. I've gone out with uh with with the same and and seen dogs that were um whining excessively, or you know, things where you think, damn, you know, this dog on paper looks great, but you bring him in the duck blind, and he's a blithering moron. Yeah, right? Yes. So that's again going back to what I was talking about with the grand being one of my litmus tests for good breeding, it's great, but you also have to throw in there, be very careful about listening to what that individual dog has done in the hunting field. You know, is that dog a real pleasure to hunt with? Does that dog have a great, really cold weather attitude? Because you won't know that on paper. I mean, they don't they don't do the grand when it's 30 degrees. Okay. So you have to you have to be a a really good detective when you're looking at bloodlines as well. Um you I your point, I totally understand your point. I've had British labs, for instance, that are the quietest, calmest, easiest to hunt with dogs. The absolute creme de la creme of hunting dogs with regards to being quiet in the blind, doing their work without much fuss. You don't have to sit there with the collar constantly, right? They're much more instinctual. And then I've taken them to the duck blind when it's cold and they they get one retrieve and they're like, Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not doing this. And you think, oh my God, we just bought the$2,000 puppy, the$3,000 puppy, put$30,000 into the training. And he won't go after the second bird. Now, I'm not saying all British labs are like that. There's plenty of them that'll do it a hundred times. I'm just saying, yeah, it's it's it's a very interesting study to see what we're doing to the bloodlines by how we selectively breed the dogs. Absolutely. 100% totally am with you. And I I go down that channel constantly. And I'm so what I try to do when I recommend puppies to people, my clients, is I number one, I want to have been around the dog. I want to know the owner, I want to really know what he actually does. I want to have had my hands on the dog, and or I want to know somebody that I trust that has done the exact same thing. So I can ask him these questions, these important questions, right? Yes. Have you hunted with the dog? Is he quiet? Does he whine? Um, does he what's his bird handling like, right? Because a good trainer can train their way out of that at a hunt test, you know. You know, if the dog mouths a bird a little bit, whatever, you know, you go you go back and you train out of it for a few weeks, then you take him to another test. But, you know, there's a lot of things that that that that uh you don't see when you're at a hunt test that you do when you're hunting. So I like to make sure that we have the titles. I like to have worked with the dog or seen the dog work myself. I like to know what they've actually done in the hunting field. And um, and then I know that that to the best of my ability, I've covered all the bases and that that breeding should be the right breeding for a person. And I and you could go on and you could rabbit hole yourself to crazy when you're to the point you're crazy when you're trying to get that perfect dog for somebody. But we we do a lot of consulting with people when they're gonna get their dog. We get a lot of people that say, hey, I need your help. I don't know which way I'm going. I need you to help to find a dog. What should I look for? And that's not it's not an easy task a lot of times because you you're also dealing with, hey, who's gonna be handling this dog? Are they are they a type A trainer that's gonna be all over the collar if they need to be? Or are they are they the type of a super passive dude that can't handle one of these hard-charging dogs? Are we better off to just give him a more easy going dog that's just kind of easy to handle, maybe not able to do to get to such a high level of training, but does the guy really need that? Is he ever going to demand that? Right? So all these things come to mind when you're when you're trying to find the right dog for somebody.
SPEAKER_00:It does. And Dan, that's that's brilliant. That's so important. It's not just your homework on buying a puppy, like you say, I think that's great advice, uh essential advice, but also it's got to be matched to your personality type. That's right. Uh I love it. Uh Dan, are you close to the Heartland Lodge? Do you know where that's at?
SPEAKER_02:No, no, I would not say close. Um, I I I I've looked at it in many years in the past to see how long. I'm guessing they're probably three hours from us-ish.
SPEAKER_00:I I'm gonna be going there at the end of the month. I just wonder if I'm passing through. I'm I'd love to come meet you in person sometime, and I'll have my pup with me. But uh if you're around.
SPEAKER_02:Well, hey, so this, just so you can see, this is this is I'm in our cabin. Um, my wife and I, this is an old school house that we build into a cabin. And um it's um I go here when I do podcasts so I I can get away from all the distractions. But we've got this. So if you if you're coming through this area, you stay at this cabin. We can go hunt and do whatever you want to do. So yeah, our art, if you I don't know if you've looked at Green Acres, um the hunting preserve, but it's 1200 acres and it's it's something else. It's something that this place has been a labor of love. Lots and lots of work. The reason I'm still here is because of the place itself. It's pretty cool. Now, what area of the state are you in?
SPEAKER_00:Is it Central, North Central?
SPEAKER_02:North Central. So we're about 90 minutes south of Chicago. We're about 40 minutes north of Champaign.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Um, I've done some landman projects in southern Illinois. Uh but so I know the area a little bit, yeah. Uh, but no, I I'll give you a shout. I I want to be uh I I've got probably after tomorrow I'll be hunting hardcore for the next week and a half, and then I think I have to show up at Heartland on the 30th. So I'll I'll uh Okay. But one of these days I'll I'd like to meet you in person for sure. Um, Dennis, tell people, let's, you know, you got a great program. You got a great found uh dog training program. Tell everyone how they can find that and how to look you up.
SPEAKER_02:Well, if you're looking to for for any sort of dog training information on um uh you know, do it yourself video type of information, it would be uh retriever foundations.com. And then if you're looking for the hunting operation, it would be hunt huntgreenacres.com. Um and if you're looking to actually have us help you train your dog, it would be gundogsuccess.com. And the the hunt club, hunt greenacres, and gun dog success are really the same place. Um so if you if you go to like our the huntgreenacres.com website, you'll also be able to click over to Gundog Success and bike vice versa.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So very nice. Well, I can I can vouch for the program. Uh I actually a lady Pam Norris down in Texas, who I think competes in the grand quite often, also has one of the uh litter mate pup to mine. And uh she posted a video the day, and I was like, dang it, Pam, you're your dog's ahead of mine. And she said, Well, I'm using Dan's program. And I said, Well, I am too, but you're ahead of me. But she's you know, she's meticulous, and she's she's a hard worker, and it it pays off. She's but her pup is is beautiful. And then uh uh uh Anna V, she uh she just goes by her middle initial, I think, there, but she's got a pup too, and I see her videos. So we all keep in touch. And then what neat thing when I watch your videos, uh a prior litter, not a litter mate, but a full uh brother, I guess, Fang is in your video, and that's uh same breeding as my pup. So it's so neat to I get to watch a good trainer, get good advice, and I get to see how uh this bloodline developed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I've I've I've got a pup that's in my program right now that um is one of the brothers to uh to Fang, and um he's doing fantastic too. And for the record, I think he's gonna be a hell of a hunting dog as well. He's gonna be a great hunt test dog, but I think that he he he looks like the kind of dog that is just gonna be uh the kind of dog that would just sit quietly in the blind. He's really composed, but I think he's gonna he's got tremendous go power at the same time. That's what I like about that breeding, is they're they're they're a little bit more a little bit more composed than some of the hunt test uh dogs that you see out there.
SPEAKER_00:Um so it's a pretty cool balance that you that they that the puppies have. I think so too. You know, you you were telling me you're giving me good advice about, you know, even if I can't keep up the training regimen at this next week or two or three that I've been doing this, uh like I've I've been throwing a duck wing, you know, and she just I will I just want to see her prey drive, right? And then if she's uh uh aroused by feathers, and so I've got a grouse wing because I've you know I'm shooting, I'm upland hunting and waterfowl hunting here, and now we've got a farm, you know, and so. So she's getting exposed to a lot of scents, a lot of different feathers.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, red flag. Red flag. Just be careful now. Yes. You don't want to you don't want to feed feed that puppy. You don't want it's not like it's like it's like you're feeding her steak and lobster every day, okay? So you know you're gonna create you're gonna create a finicky dog when it comes to the dummy. So birds are only just used to get the dog aroused once or twice, get the smell there, get him excited. I would say, as a rule, most of the time it's less than this, but the maximum that you would use birds is once a week. That's what I mean. Maximum. That's what I mean. Okay. So as long as that dog, when you present an inanimate object like a dummy or a paint roller, is always excited, then you can continue to do that once a week deal. But if your dog starts to to to uh not want the uh inanimate object because they're constantly looking for the bird object, then you gotta quit.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Trust me, once once you've got that dog interested in birds, it's not going, you don't have to keep replenishing it. Okay. Just look and you're way better off right now to say, you know what, don't the most fun you're gonna get is with that dummy because otherwise you may cause a problem later when it's time to really need your dog to want dummies. Your dog might be thinking, Oh, well, you know, I'm I'm looking for that bird wing.
SPEAKER_00:I'd rather have that. Okay. So I'll do that. And and what about this? Like the only other thing I was doing, and I only I only would uh eight each time I would clean a bird, I just give it one wing and I did it one time. And then if I got a different species, I would do it at that, you know, at that time, so a grouse. Sure. And then and then a pheasant, just for the different scent. But I'm glad you told me that that would be that would be bird, bird socialization.
SPEAKER_02:That'd be bird socialization, is what that would be. Okay. You're basically showing the dog all the different flavors, so to speak. Okay. Um, but but just enough to get it going. Okay. Um, because you don't you don't have a whole lot to gain um because by doing it excessively. Okay. Just enough to get your dog excited. That's that's those dogs have an incredible memory when it comes to visual, audio, and olfactory senses.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:They're not gonna forget it.
unknown:Good.
SPEAKER_02:And so they you you you that's going into their storage permanently, and you you when it comes time later to re-expose, they'll pull it right back out.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So one really don't yeah, don't think that you have to keep doing it over and over because that a dog that constantly gets birds is gonna expect birds. And again, there's so much in these next levels that it's gonna that's gonna require high levels of momentum with dummies that um I think you may cause more damage than you think you're causing by doing too much of that. So just okay, again, once a week maximum. And if you can get away with doing it even less than that, do it less than that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm thinking even one times enough just to get the scent of that bird of that species, and then yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So, what I would be looking for when I'm doing it is I would use a small enough feather specimen with it where it's easy to get into the dog's mouth. Um, I don't like it to the point where you got a bigger dog and a tiny little feather or wing such that they start chewing and grabbing getting bad uh mouthing tendencies. So, in that case, what I'll do is I'll tape it to a paint roller or something so the dog's still getting the smell, but they they they're not gonna feel so comfortable mouthing and chewing and crunching those wings.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but again, I would be looking for developing the interest, the confidence, and the pickup and the carry. Okay. So, in other words, if your dog's interested in it, it goes after it, it picks it up and it carries it in a reason for a reasonable distance. It doesn't have to come back perfectly. Dog puppies don't always come back. But if you can run with it and it starts running with it and carrying it, and and it's happy carrying it, that's about all you need for each one of those different species, and then put it away and do more dummies.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, good advice. I appreciate that. Well, Dan, this has been great. I I've actually may have learned more here than I have on anything. It's uh this is gonna be a great podcast. I can't wait for it to come out. Um, and I'll let you know, I'll try to give you a heads up. I always try to do that when it's gonna be released. Uh we're doing two a week now, so we do every Tuesday and Thursday. We have a release.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, great.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and I I I was hoping it wouldn't get overkill and people get burnt out, but so far it's the numbers have keep going up, so uh we'll keep putting them out.
SPEAKER_02:Um, congratulations on your success and thank you for uh for inviting me on the show.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure, an absolute pleasure. I've uh this is such a knowledgeable session. I I'm excited about it coming out, and thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be on here. Thank you. You have a great day. All right, you have a good one too. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation. I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our YouTube channel to check out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation. For$10 a month, you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly we'll do a monthly forum, an open forum where you can ask me anything gun dog related and we'll learn from each other in the community. Should be a lot of fun each month. We will do that. So check it out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation.