Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Brett Browning - How A Pointer And A Map Opened A World Of Ptarmigan, Grouse, And Quail
#64 The map looks different when your dog disappears into the tundra and points white birds against white sky. Kenneth sits down with Brett Browning to trace a wild loop through Alaska, Idaho, South Dakota, Montana, and Arizona—breaking down the birds, the terrain, and the dog work that ties it all together. From 40-covey days on ptarmigan above Nome to blue grouse that vanish into Douglas firs, we dig into how scent really moves, why a pointer might be locked up with the wind at his back, and when to shorten range from 200-yard casts in chukar country to tight, careful work along CRP and corn edges for pheasants.
We get practical about the hard parts: packing for relentless rain on spongy tundra, using GPS when the sky closes in, and protecting pads with simple, proven care. Brett shares a clean recovery plan—water, rest, and getting calories in quickly—plus the training conversations that help a dog adjust across habitats. If you’ve wondered how to turn late-season sharp-tail flushes into chances, or how to pick honest cover for pointing dogs in pheasant country, you’ll hear field-tested answers.
Arizona gets its due with a clear guide to Gambel’s, scaled, and the gentleman Mearns quail that hold like few wild birds do. We talk seasons, elevations, and the rare days you can take all three species without moving the truck. Along the way, expect fresh takes on public access, honest gear, and mixed dog teams that pair pointers with a steady retriever. If you love bird dogs and big country, this one will reset your plans for the season ahead.
If this episode sharpened your plan, follow the show, share it with a hunting buddy, and leave a review so more dog folks can find us.
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I'm Kenneth Witt and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to build a community of people around the world that like to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we want to get our youth involved into the sport of gun dogs, whether it be hunting, sport, or competition. We want to build a community of people united to preserve our gun dog heritage and to be better gun dog owners. Tune in to each weekly episode and learn about training, dog health, wellness, and nutrition. We will also offer tips for hunting with dogs and for competition hunt tests, field trials, and other dog sports that involve gun dogs. Please go to our website, gundognation.com and subscribe to our email list. We will keep you informed weekly with podcasts that are coming out. We also will be providing newsletters with training tips and health tips for your dog. You can also go to patreon.com forward slash gun dognation and become a member. There's different levels of membership on there. Just go check that out. Also, we'd like to thank Sean Brock for providing the music for this show. The introduction and the outro is Sean Brock. He played everything on there except the Banjo by Scott Vestal and the Dobro by Jerry Douglas. Sean is a neighbor of mine from over in Harlan, Kentucky. I'm just crossing mountain in Hyden, Kentucky, and he's a super talented guy. But most of all, want you guys to check out the Creakers. They are also from Hyden, Kentucky. This is an up-and-coming bluegrass and country band, and these guys are hot. They're all over TikTok and YouTube. You will hear these guys because in a year or so that they will be on the radio. They are very talented. Their videos are going viral on the net. These boys are family. Two of the lead singers, one grew up with my daughters, and the other one is my cousin's son. So he's family. But check them out. Check out the creakers. Also, last but not least, if you want to buy a hat, koozie, t-shirt, or even gun dog supplies, go to shopgundognation.com and you can purchase any of those items. Thank you so much for listening. It's a privilege to have people that want to put up with me talking about dogs all the time. I actually enjoy what I do, and I'm so glad to have this opportunity. And thank you. Hello, it's Kenneth Whipp, the Gundog Nation podcast. I'm finally back home today in Fort McCabin, Texas at the ranch. I've been on a two-month hunting excursion. But the guy got on here, I'm actually, uh people said they were jealous of my two-month hunting excursion, but I think uh Mr. Browning here is actually uh doing a lot more fun stuff than even I did. So we're gonna talk about that. Uh this man, uh, I think he hails in Arizona. I'm gonna let him introduce himself, but he has a very for upland hunters, he does to me what is on my bucket list, and I can't wait to get into this and talk about it. But thank everybody for listening to the Gun Dog Nation podcast. Again, we're sponsored by Purina, uh Cable Gangs, Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy, Retriever Training Supply, Folicious uh of Vietnamese foods, and let me think, please let me forget something else. Uh uh that's all I can think of right now. I'm sure I'm sure I forgot somebody, but I have commercials to cover me for that. Brett, uh, thank you for taking time out of your hunting trip, and that's a big deal. I believe me, I know. Uh tell everybody who you are, and let's just we'll get into it a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:All right. It's good to be with you, Ken. Good morning. And from I'm from um originally from Texas, and I'm sitting in South Dakota right now. Um I do quite a bit of bird hunting. I don't uh I don't do any big game hunting. I did as a kid uh there in Texas when you can shoot just about a deer a day down there. And uh it's all bird hunting for me, birds and dogs, uh mainly the dogs, but um I do quite a bit of bird hunting from Alaska to tip of Texas.
SPEAKER_00:No, Brett, what interested me, and and I mean I I I'm I still consider myself a novice uh upland hunter. Uh you know, I I love it. But you know, I t I was talking to you one day via text, and you were in the Arctic Circle. First of all, a guy like me, I didn't I'm from Southeast Kentucky, I've been in Texas 13 years, but I had no clue that there were birds that even lived in the Arctic Circle except maybe penguins or something. So tell me what you were hunting up there.
SPEAKER_01:Well, what we do, we've been going up there for about 10 years, and we've hunted all over Alaska, but uh the the place we've been hunting here the last three years has been north of Gnome. We will actually fly into Gnome and then continue on north up above the circle uh out towards Palmer. And no, no, no, no, Palmer, that's a that's an anchorage. Um uh not the Steese, that's over in Fairbanks, good heavens. Um I forget the name of that highway out of Nome. It's the only highway goes north out of Gnome, but we'll even go further north than that. And what we're hunting is pharmigan, willow ptarmigan. There's three types of pharmigan up there. You got the willows, the rocks, and the whitetailed uh pharmigan. And you can actually find some whitetailed pharmigan in Colorado way up high. But uh up in up in Alaska, uh up out on that tundra, uh there's some incredible upland hunting to be had, and they're very they're not pressured at all because people go up there for big game, moose and caribou, bear and stuff, and they're they're not molested at all, really. And you can really get some really good dog work. And one of the phenomenons up there growing up in Texas and and and even you know, hunting in the Midwest, you never come across a fence. There's no fence. And and it literally that tundra goes over the curve of the earth. And it's just it's like you're out in the South Pacific, because you just never get out of habitat. And you'll you'll be you'll see some habitat oh a hundred yards to your right, you know, oh, I want to go hunt that habitat. But there are creeks and and spots and low spots, swampy areas, you can't get there. It's real deceiving. You can't like um hunting Bob White's and uh around Lubbock, you walk down this fence road, you turn around, and you come, you know, walk down another fence row, and you go back to the truck. It there's so just so many landmarks up there. There's no cattle, there's no fences. That's what and and it's really hard to get used to white dogs on point and white birds flushing.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. So I guess it's real easy for a man to get lost in that terrain.
SPEAKER_01:You can. You need a GPS big time because that it it rains. We were there one year and uh a friend of mine, Tim, Tim Franks out of uh Mountain Home, Idaho, we were hunting up there and it it rained for six days and seven nights. Never stopped. Never stopped. And you you gotta you got a pack for that. Uh dogs and yourself. Um it you it is so wet and so so rainy, and it it th those clouds will sock in in there and everything looks the same, and you can get lost in 20 feet.
SPEAKER_00:Man. Now, when you were there, was am I right? It was in September, wasn't it? Mid-August. Oh wow, okay, that's right. That's you and I have been talking that long. So that's is that is there a season or do you is there just a time of year that's best to go?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a very, very long season. It opens in mid-August and goes to the end of March.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:It's a really long season.
SPEAKER_00:Is it because not many people do it?
SPEAKER_01:No. Well, I've not uh I've I've been up there ten times and I've run into one bird hunter.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. How did you even find out about it? I mean, I don't read about this in my normal gun dog magazines, at least I've never seen it anyway.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll tell you what, it's kind of interesting, interesting story. I was at a friend's house in Roswell, New Mexico, uh, Craig Collins, very good gentleman, uh very close friend of mine. We're having dinner at his table, and Tim Franks, the fellow I mentioned earlier, we're there uh bird hunting there in Roswell, and we pull up a picture of a pharmigan. We're we're checking emails and going through emails and talking dogs, talking birds, eating and and having a great time. And we pull up a picture of a ptarmigan, and I'm like, where can and I and I talk I turn my iPad around to Tim. I'm like, where can we find this? I'd like to hunt a ptarmigan. Where can we find this? He goes, I think they're in Alaska. Like, I think they're in Alaska. And that's where it started, as Tim saying, I think they're in Alaska. And about 11 years later, I mean, we got it figured out.
SPEAKER_00:That's insane. So um in August or when you guys go, and I guess that's the optimal time to go because of weather, or why why August?
unknown:Why?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it it's in it's rainy, which is not a big deal, but upper 30s to mid-40s is a lot more comfortable on these pointers than 35 below. And it and it it gets cold quick up there, and their their winters are are long and hard, and there's so much snow, and the the pointers just work better in mid-August to September.
SPEAKER_00:And you being a bird dog man, I assume for a long time, is the pointer the the optimal breed to have in those conditions?
SPEAKER_01:A uh short hair, uh, a pointer of of any kind, a short hair, an English pointer.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It it's a pointing dog's game up there.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um And I meant to say the English pointer.
SPEAKER_00:I mean I should have s specified that.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, yeah. English pointers, German uh GSPs.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh a pointing breed, uh the setters would be fine.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh there's not any cuckle burrs and stuff like that for them to get, they just get wet.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um so a setter would work fine. Uh, and since they're not jousted all that much, they they really hold tight and it is just it's remarkable. I it's a remarkable hunt, and I feel real fortunate to be able to go up there and do that. What's the daily limit there? It there's areas that have a 10 bird limit, and there's areas that have a 20 bird limit.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And we we the last well, since we've been going up north of Nome, we've been uh I'd say in a seven-day hunt, we'll limit six days. Two of us with a 20 bird limit. That's a bunch of birds. And they're the locals really like those birds. They don't even care if they're cleaned, but we give away most of them. But we s we were at a we're at a facility where we can cook a lot of the birds. But uh 20 bird limit, 40 birds a day, that's that's a lot of dog work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Wow. So yeah, I get it. I mean, that's about like hunting on a preserve, you know, you're getting that many points.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I would yeah, I would say not counting well well, counting the ones we don't even go after. You're we're driving down the road and seeing birds and counting those and counting the ones we encounter out in the field. Uh 35, 40 cubbies a day.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Now, kind of help me picture what this terrain looks like. I mean, you you kind of explained a little bit, but are are you shooting in brush, trees?
SPEAKER_01:What what the shooting uh I call it shinri, everything I just call it shinri. Okay. It's really short shinri, unless you get into a willow thicket, which you don't want to be in, because it gets really thick really fast, and there's other things in there besides ptarmigan. So you don't want you don't want to get yourself in one of those. You work work the edges of that. Okay. But it's short shinri, very good shooting, and the uh the tundra is a spongy um habitat. It's it's like you're walking on a four-inch mattress. You sink down, um you uh I don't know if if this is a sponsor of yours or not, but uh mucks boots are as important as uh keeping your dog safe. Mux is the way to uh your your uh your regular hunting boot is just way too much water. Okay way too much water. And and we'll have gators on up above the mucks even just to stay dry. You you have to pack to stay dry. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:It's um yeah, that's just hard to imagine. No, the chinnery that I think of, and I assume it was I know what I'm talking about, maybe I don't, but what I've hunted in higher elevation, Colorado, it's shinnery, right? Real thick tree, like a like an oak leaf, a type of oak or something, and it's except they're taller there, maybe four or five, six feet. Is that the same kind of stuff? Hello, this is Kenneth Whipp with Gun Dog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training the retriever. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone will be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next, and what to do when problems arise. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com to learn how you can train your retriever. I have used this method myself. I have been through it a couple times with different dogs. I refer back to it lots of times when I'm trying to get dogs freshen back up for hunt test season. I highly recommend them. I have actually been a subscribed member of Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy since 2016, and I would suggest anyone use it. I highly recommend it. They have an app that you can get to on your phone. You can do it from your phone, your laptop. You can't get any more convenient than that. I I've used it, it's proven and tried, and I know literally hundreds of people that have done the same thing that I've talked to. Visit Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy.com and learn how to train your own retriever. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt, and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply based in Alabama. Retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit Retriever Training Supply.com to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leases I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leases are and they source them locally. They have anything you want, fast friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply.
SPEAKER_01:No, uh it's Willows. I forget what the the proper name of that is, but it's Willow. That's where the Willows get their name, Willow Carbigan. But mainly, and some of those can get pretty pretty tall, but you'll have willows and alderwood. Okay. The alders, and and which is a good area to be hunting as well. But that there's there's there's a lot of vegetation there, but it's very, very short. I'm you're you're talking, you know, just ten inches above the ground. And the undulation of that tundra, you it's not like walking on a gym floor. It's constant maneuvering. And another amazing thing is when you see a herd of caribou, I mean, they're just clicking across that tundra like it's nothing. They can cover the country. It's like they're skating on ice. But the you walk and it's you you'll turn ankles and it it's it's one of a kind. It's uh it's a it's like you're on a different planet up there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, how do you because I I know just for me, and I'm I'm I'm 57 and I have a lot of knee issues, but you know, just upland hunting alone is is pretty taxing on my knees. I I'm and you know, it's tough. How do you prepare to walk? Because that sounds like treacherous walking, like really difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's it's hard walking, uh but it's nothing compared to Hell's Canyon in Idaho.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It that that's a job there. Um but it uh it's the undulation and that sponginess is what'll wear you out. There there's very few hills. There's a few hills, but d uh nothing in the same ballpark as Hells Canyon.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Um do you do what do you do in the offseason? Do you how do you stay in shape? Like you have to be in shape. I don't know how you do it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you uh I run ten miles a week. Okay. Uh run two miles a day, five days a week, and um shoot two hundred, three hundred rounds of ski a week, probably. But you would do a lot of shooting and um and run ten miles a week. And a lot of it um a lot of it is desire.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You you gotta you gotta want it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's you know, I I I've never really done DIY duck hunting, you know, until this year up in Montana with a group of guys, and they're from the Texas coast, and they like to kill me. I I don't you know, I've went to places where you just go down there and somebody else has set up the decoys and take you down the decoys, and you're not walking through swamp and waiters to get there or marsh. And I was about to die, and I thought, man, you guys are insane. And they done it for seven or eight days straight, two times a day. So now knowing this helps me to picture what you're doing, which sounds even harder. Yeah, I tell you this, Brett, next year, this chubby guy will be in better shape when I go back. That's all right.
SPEAKER_01:I tell you, it um it it it's it's it's taxing, it really taxing on the dogs. Um if you do get into some snowy weather, which we haven't got into to big issues of snowy weather, but uh your dogs, there's a there's a there's an item called Musher Secret that's really good on those dogs' feet. The it's not like the gravel in Montana, Idaho, Texas, Kansas, Nebraska. It it it you don't have the gravel at all. Um but you the the wetness and the snow, that musher secret really works good on their pads. And I don't I don't I try not to put boots on a dog.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. But you do use it uh the whole time you're in the Arctic.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you you I'll rub that mushroom on them and they don't lick it off. It that that stuff is designed Oh what it's designed for is to keep ice from balling up in between their pads.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it does really good on that. But just like a soothing lotion, like a lotion, you put a lotion on your dry hands, it did things just feel better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and the the dogs really, really take to it and it it it really helps their pads out.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not trying to get too much in your business, but just curious, I assume because of where it's at, the the remoteness of the location, pretty expensive hunting trip.
SPEAKER_01:It it's it's a little pricey. Um we don't have a guide. Um Tim and I figured it out. Um and Tim Tim's an avid, avid bird hunter like myself, and there's a between the two of us, there's a lot of desire there.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So um we we save some money being our own guide, but there there's some people that uh that go up there to spend insane amounts of money to eat to even shoot a moose.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, that's uh I know a lot of folks have killed moose and caribou, and I've eaten moose uh from hunting candle a bunch, but which I thought was an excellent meat, by the way, maybe one of the best I've ever had. Oh, nice. Uh haven't eaten caribou, but anyway, yeah, and I'm like you, Brett. I was a big game hunter too, hardcore for years, but uh now that I've got dogs, I I don't I still love a big game hunt, but I don't have time and I'd rather hunt my dogs. Sure. Oh, absolutely. So now what's in your kennel? What are you hunting with?
SPEAKER_01:English pointers.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Uh well I tell you this, and we'll we'll we'll have this discussion. I I've got an English pointer. It's uh off of that Jimmy, it's a big Naster winner.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And I got it from Chad Norpla up in North Dakota. I love this dog. He's probably I don't know his age, I should know that, but he's under two. Uh he's won a field trial. Oh, good. And uh had some and got some other places. Uh and that's not what I do. But anyway, I've got him, then I've got a Britney I got from Ronnie and Susanna Smith. Okay. And I'm I I'm he's uh a young started dog, and he's really coming along. But um what you know, I don't was it a Texas thing that got you in the English Pointers? What got you, why is that your breed?
SPEAKER_01:My granddad uh got us all, you know, that that that just brings up a whole other subject. Rarely does somebody just get off the couch and go bird hunting. That that's a rarity. You got an uncle or a dad or a granddad that took you. And my granddad took me uh several times, and my dad took me, and they they trained dogs and they had setters and pointers.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's kind of old school, but uh setters and pointers is what I cut my teeth on, literally. And uh I I've stuck with them and they they fit what you you you and uh a a person not in the in the in the dog hunting world, the the first step in in in getting in that world is have something in your mind that you want. And if you can get that and then be satisfied with that and and and like that and love that, there's a dog out there that'll fit it.
SPEAKER_00:Um what does Brett Browning in his mind, what is your ideal dog? You've I know you've got an idea. What's your perfect dog for you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the ideal dog for me is while I I'm 62 and I can still I can still walk and I can cover the country. And I I like dogs that'll cover the ground. I've I transitioned from chuckers in Idaho and Montana just about a month ago in Wyoming uh over to pheasants here in South Dakota. And you gotta have a dog that you have a strong bond with that will adjust. Because I don't need him out there 200 yards like I do in Hells Canyon. But here, you know, you 50 yards, 60 yards is is all you want. And I want a dog that'll adjust to the different different types, because every upland bird is different. Uh a bobwhite hon is different than a chucker hun or a Hungarian partridge or sharp-tailed grouse. That's they're all different, and they're all they're all uh amazing uh birds to follow and chase, but uh you need a versatile dog that you have a very strong bond with because that the these dogs are right here next to me right now, and I spend a lot of time with them.
SPEAKER_00:You know, Brett, that's uh now you're you're educating me a lot here. This year's my first year of true multi-terrain, multi-state upland hunting, not not to the extreme you've been, but you know, I took an English pointer who had been trained in the Dakotas in that prairie grass, you know. Um of course he was in Nastor, so hunting quail, and I took him from that straight to Wisconsin after I grouse hunted with him some with the owner or the guy I got him from, and went to rough grouse. So it was so thick it was early September, and here this dog is hunted where he can run like a deer. Now he can't hardly run three feet without hitting something.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I sure didn't. And my Britney, too, same thing.
SPEAKER_00:The Britney was trained in Oklahoma by Smith, so he'd been in open country, and uh so we hunted Wisconsin a little bit, then went straight to to Minnesota, and it was it just amazed me how they kind of adapted. I thought, oh, you know, they're gonna run so big, but I started just toning them to turn them and noticed they finally started getting it and walking with me and quartering with me. And matter of fact, I shot my first rough grouse in Minnesota and my dog retrieved it at a pretty long distance that I'd given up on the bird, my English corner. I was very impressed.
SPEAKER_02:I think. Hey Hottie Hottie.
SPEAKER_00:I think my there he comes. I think my internet's getting weak as yours. Okay. I I think it's actually mine. I'm on Starlink here at the ranch, and okay, now it seems to be working fine. It's odd.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay. Okay. My wife's here, she may try to adjust it a little bit. We're we're still live, but we can edit this. Um hopefully they edit it. But uh so yeah, I was I don't know if you heard me, but I was just talking about that English pointer I had and how it switched from but uh so so you you're hunting in so many different trains from tundra to to Texas. I'm sure you know you've got to have a dog that that can uh just hit it and run and never even think twice. Oh, what what what is this stuff? Hello, this is Kenneth Whipp with Gun Dog Nation, and I've got to tell you guys about something that I've gotten hooked on lately. It's faux licious. These are gourmet instant faux and ramen bowls that actually taste like the real deal. When I'm out in the field all day, and the last thing I want is a settle for blended camp food. Folishious is what I go to. It's authentic, the flavor, it's real ingredients, it's ready in just minutes. It's perfect for hunters, fishmen, or anyone on the go. And you can get them over 1900 Walmarts nationwide, your local ATB here in Texas, or you can just go online at folicious.com. Trust me, once you try it, you'll keep a few stock 10 in your bag in your pack pack or for your next adventure. I just want to say this, I want to add this to this commercial because I know the owners of this company. They've hunted on my ranch. Uh Joseph, uh he and I who actually met in Colorado on a hunting trip. Uh, that was a real adventure. They are true hunters. They've hunted the ranch, you know, and I've hunted with them. And Ana, she is just amazing. She's the one that came up with this idea. They were both on Shark Tank. They are amazing people. So it's I love seeing people like this have a business. And I just had to say that in addition to the commercial because I really believe in the product and I believe in the people that made the product. Be sure to go to foalicious.com or go to Walmart or H E B and try their product. I promise you you will like it.
SPEAKER_01:Right, exactly. And it it takes half an hour or so for them to figure things out, but you you in in your bond that you build with that dog thing, you you um you communicate real quick on what's going on.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. You know, so you you mentioned a while ago, Brett, that rarity, the guy hardly gets off the couch, just becomes a bird hunter. Believe it or not, I'm almost that guy. I grew up with dogs, grew up learning how to how to train on my own, been to dog training schools, done protection dog work for years, and and fooled that pretty heavy. Um had beagles. But my my dad, my dad didn't hunt. He was a musician, my grandpa didn't hunt, neither one of my grandfathers hunted, you know, and uh but I love the dogs got me into it. Oh, sure. And I I'm sure I'm not the only guy that's or lady that's happened to, but it was the love of the dogs, and then watching a dog work, you know, that's what that's what got me into it.
SPEAKER_01:And I Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um now we're gonna switch gears a little bit. You mentioned Hell's Canyon, but I after talking to you, and I talked to another guy, actually it was the owner of Bird Dog Supply, called me, and we got to talking about the species of grouse in Idaho. And I have to admit, I had no clue. I didn't know there were grouse in Idaho, and I definitely didn't know that there's as many species of grouse as there are in Idaho. Tell me about that, educate me more on Idaho grouse hunting and uh Idaho upland hunting in general.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I tell you what, I'll tie that in back a little bit to Alaska.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:On the very first trip to Alaska, we're going over, we're on the Denali Highway, and we're just going down the road trying to get to tundra habitat, and there are literally within about a half a mile, hundreds of spruce grouse in the road. I'd never seen a spruce grouse. And we're like, what the heck is I mean, what And and it's it's a it's a really good sized bird, like you know, not as big about the size of a bluegrass. I mean, it's it's a pretty good sized bird. And the limit is 15 a day.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And uh we'd get out and get the dogs out, chase them off the road, which they'd fly up into a tree a lot of times, but uh we'd get out and hunt. There were birds on the ground in the tree, birds everywhere. Anyway, that's how I got baptized into spruce grouse. And and that that's right there in Alaska is we were bagging Tarmigan and Bluegrouse. I mean, what a what a hunt. Um Idaho you have the blues, which is that you get some really good dog work with bluegrouse. Uh surprisingly, that uh that's a lot of that's a lot of favorites for for bird hunters is bluegrass hunting with a dog. And uh and the and the a lot of people think the birds are are not all that jittery and and skittish of people, and they're not. But you put a dog on the ground, they smarten up real quick. And you you you but you can still get a a lot of good dog work. And we haven't uh really went after uh solely rough grouse, but they have good they have good rough grouse numbers. We'd get into them as we're hunting uh blues, uh, because the blues will open before the chuckers and huns do, and we'll hunt blues and sprinkle in a few uh rough grouse in there as well prior to the uh chuckers and huns opening up.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Brett, let me ask you this. So my grouse hunting experience right now is limited to rough grouse, which believe it or not, I actually grew up around in in southeast Kentucky, not anymore. I don't think they're there, but they were when I was young. Uh but anyway, I wasn't a hunter. I wasn't hunting them necessarily at that time, but I knew I jumped them all the time squirrel hunting.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And then, you know, so but this year my hunt my hunting was was pretty much limited to sharp tail, and then I hunted rough grouse over in Minnesota, Wisconsin. And I and you know, we obviously know the differences in hunting those types. One is super thick woods, you know, uh young young timber, and then sharp tail was grassland. What how is blue and how is spruce and how are what's different about hunting those birds in the terrain that they're that's their habitat?
SPEAKER_01:Uh the the spruce and blues are pretty much in kind of the same habitat in the pine trees up high. And the blues will reverse migrate. The colder it gets, the the more elevation they gain. And a lot of times with the bluegrouse, if you're if you're you're hunting along and you got it like eight, nine, ten birds, twelve birds, that's is a female with her little ones. Okay the uh the the roosters the will are a lot separate. And if you want a bigger and if you want to hunt the bigger birds, you usually need to move up in elevation to get away from those families. But those uh the the those families, those eight, nine, ten bird groups are get a lot of good dog work with those with those uneducated birds.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, that's so see I can't imagine so they that they're in are they up in trees, like big trees?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh they'll they'll fly up into the uh there's Douglas firs in in Idaho. Um they call them pea pines, ponderosa pines, you'll have some of those. Uh but mainly Douglas firs is what they'll fly up into, and and what they'll do, they'll fly up in a tree and then they'll they'll kind of make their way towards the trunk of the tree. And it is it's you know the bird is there, you cannot see it. Wow. You cannot you'll see a tail feather or a uh the silhouette of a of a head, and you you'll finally find it. But man old man, when they fly up in them trees, they they camo quick.
SPEAKER_00:And then once they're in a tree, that hunt's over for that bird. What was that, Kim? Once they're up in the tree like that, is the hunt over for that bird?
SPEAKER_01:Oh no, not no, not necessarily. You can you can get them to fly. Uh majority of the time. You can get them to fly out of there, but man, it's a tough shot. Now, and when that occurs, you're not gonna you don't have you don't have any um you know there's no dog work. I mean you'll have a retrieve, but a lot of times we just continue on trying to find uh birds on the ground to get some good dog work.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, it makes sense because then they're just retrieving, not pointing.
SPEAKER_01:Correct, yeah. And you'll have dogs, they'll look so I've had a pointer, one of my pointers, they'll they'll tree. They know that bird's up there and they'll they'll treat us like a kid. That's what I was gonna ask you.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe you need to throw some walker coon hounds on that hunt with you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know it. Oh man, they'll they'll just and I've got a pointer that never, never barks. And he'll he'll be up on the side of that tree just barking and barking of like son of a gun, you know. And they these these dogs act different with different birds, you know.
SPEAKER_00:That's pretty neat. I I'd like to see, you know, I was uh hunting my pointer last week, Brett, and and I was sitting there thinking, you know, he kind of for a minute there it looked like a walker coon hound, you know. Oh, because they're all they're all athletic and long and lengthy. Oh so as far as species of grouse, what's the hardest to hunt, in your opinion?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, they're not that really hard to hunt, but a lot of times you're well I tell you what, uh just to take that a little further. The hardest grouse to hunt is probably prairie chicken. Okay. Because you gotta do so much walking. The the birds are just not as plentiful. I I've seen one cubby this year right here in South Dakota, one cubby, and I've I've done a lot of hunting. And that's probably the toughest grouse to hunt is because you just have to put so many miles. You could walk five, six miles before you see a bird. Uh so I would I would think the chickens are the toughest. Now, what part of South Dakota do you hunt in? I'm south of Mitchell.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:What they call East East River.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I just drove through there. I was in Huron opening day of pheasant season.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And then I went to Canada and hunted after I'd hunted there and then came back down through Huron and Mitchell. I actually stayed in Mitchell the night on my way back driving back out of Canada. Okay. That was I don't know when it was. That was early last week. But uh and then I did a canned hunt at the Heartland Lodge before I went home. I just got back to Texas night for last. Uh all right, uh so uh now for me when I Brett when I hunt in South Dakota, I go with a guy that that that owns his own place, and we're hunting corn and and sometimes sorghum or something, you know, but mostly corn. And I didn't use my pointing dogs because those I just to me, and I'm not I'm not a pointing dog expert, you know, he they use retrievers labs, and I have retrievers that I pheasant hunt with too, and I almost got my dogs out, but then I was afraid maybe I'd mess them up because you know, those birds are running through cornrows like crazy and the labs are quartered and flushing and retrieving. And I just didn't think that, and I was talking to those guys who've done that for 30 years there and know their stuff and know dogs, and they kind of even are like, you know, it's probably not probably not the greatest idea. But then I've hunted pheasant, you know, I've my dogs have pointed pheasant in the in the grasslands like in Dakota, it's like you know, up North Dakota and stuff. So how do you pheasant hunt with your pointers?
SPEAKER_01:I am I don't go on a lot of those driven hunts. I'm by myself. I'm completely by myself with two pointers, and what I do, I don't hunt the corn, I'll hunt the edge of the corn in CRP fence rows. And if I was to get those dogs out in a corn, it it it just it just not their forte. They you know, look at all these trails. There's just rows, what's going through the dog's mind is there's rows and rows and rows of all these trails.
SPEAKER_00:And and they're not gonna hold in that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:No, no. Oh, heaven's.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, and when I when I came down to Illinois on the end of my hunt and I hunted pheasant, and they, you know, they were planting birds, and maybe that's different than pheasants in South Dakota that that's been there a couple generations. But but the planting birds, those pheasants held real tight, I thought, because they were in thick stuff, and they'd hold until you get right on them, you know. Uh so different than what I was used to in South Dakota. Matter of fact, I couldn't get a shot off a couple times because I was like, oh crap, you know, I'm not used to that. I'm used to a a bird flushing in front of me 20 yards or so. When you're hunting them, how are they are they holding pretty tight?
SPEAKER_01:I I run Garmin GPS collars on these dogs, and there's a there's an indication on there on where your dog is, how many yards he's out. And these two pointers, I there's a there's an indication on your GPS monitor or your remote for near because the dogs are near. N-E-A-R, near. I mean it's less than 10 feet. And I can't see the dog.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I had I I know I'm near and the dog is not gonna move. I know I'm near, and I that dog, that that bird could come up in a 360-degree spot. So the the the collars are essential, and this is the only place in in the lower 48 that I've hunted that I've had a dog on point with near and not be able to see him.
SPEAKER_00:It's uh you know, my I just have the 550 plus. Mine doesn't have the near, but it has a point indicator when they're they hold long enough and they're pointing. But I didn't know I didn't know that the that that alpha had that function because I use a 550 plus, but I checked that out. But yeah, it is different, you know, like uh even I'll never forget one of the first grout rough grouse is my Britney pointed in Minnesota. I got right on it, you know. My dog was facing here, and I got around where I, you know, I figured it was going to jump up in front of my dog's face. It fluffs way behind us. And it scared me, you know. I was like, Well, heck, and there's no way I'd have shot it, and I I wouldn't. But uh it's it's neat how those things run on the ground. The rough grass to me is a little bit like pheasants, they'll kind of run on the ground, and you you know, they're and they're in thick stuff too. Unlike a sharpshow, they don't really like that thick, thick grass. Hey, it's Kenneth Whipp of the Gun Dog Nation Podcast, and I'm very proud to have as a new sponsor Cable Games. That's built G-A-N-G-Z. Brendan Lander at Cable Games has developed, in my opinion, and I have, and I'm a customer, the best timeout systems on the market. They're easy to pack, easy to store. They can call up just like an extension cord. They use premium galvanized steel cable coated with durable, UV resistant PVC coating. The branding can make custom products, anything you want that's related to a dog timeout system or a cable system or a way to safe and secure your dog. They've even made a system that works with a bicycle so you can go and exercise your bicycles and have your dog running along with you. It's it would be impossible for me to describe to you all the different custom applications they have, so just go to the website at cablegangs.com and check it out. They make dog timeouts a way to safely secure your dog. If you're at a field trial, a hunt test, count competition, whatever that might be, these guys make the best product on the market. Check it out for yourself, cable gangs.com.
SPEAKER_01:No, not a lot. They're out there on the prairie, out there on the edge. They use it for insurance. But a lot of times they're gonna be in that open open country. There's something else I wanted to touch real quick on bluegrass. Yes. It's a bird have the wind completely at the dog's back. And and that that scent is coming over that dog's head and he's on point. And and the dog and it it's amazing how they adjust. They don't have to necessarily have that wind in their nose. There was a there was a bird in in front of well, a dog in front of me, and it was Tim's dog, uh and the the fellow I mentioned in Mountain Home Idaho, that wind was coming right over the top of that dog's head. Right over the top, I mean he was still able to point that bird, and we ended up retrieving the bird, but it was amazing uh to to see a dog adjust to to wind, not in his nose.
SPEAKER_00:Did he point to back towards the wind or or away? Yeah, the bird was behind him. Did he turn around and point back behind him?
SPEAKER_01:No, he was pointing forward because he had sin in his nose, and the bird was was fifteen yards behind him, and he was rock solid looking forward.
SPEAKER_00:And that's exactly what happened in that situation I told you about then. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it'll sure happen. It was a big old rooster bird, and he he wasn't moving, and that that scent, it was just amazing. I said, I was told Tim, that scent was coming over the top of his head, and he still picked him up.
SPEAKER_00:Their nose is something. I've seen those pointers, my pointers found birds that I I give up on. Oh, sure. Well, actually, the rough grouse I shot, I gave up on it. I thought may I maybe I missed it, you know, and it was so thick in there. And he, from the point where I shot Brett, I which was in from the a road, a walking trail that they have, those set-aside places, and it was 121 yards where he picked that bird up. That's crazy. Good. The rough grouse through thick, thick stuff. And how he ever found, smelled, and got on that aisle, never know, but it's it was nice.
SPEAKER_01:Well, um that's why you're out for instances like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, and then I had a a Britney, that Brittany, I I shot a pheasant and just winged it, and he was about 128 yards. He brought it back, it still, you know, wasn't fully dead. But uh, I was like, that's my dog right there. Because that that'd have been a that'd have been a bird that, you know, and it's conservation, right? I mean, otherwise it'd have been a bird that'd been wounded and probably eventually died, but but your dogs keep that from happening.
SPEAKER_01:I tell you what, uh something else, hunting in Hell's Canyon, hunting chuckers and hunts in Hell's Canyon, if you're on a just crest of a hill, you got a covey that coming up, and you knock down two or three birds out of that covey, those birds are you know 20 yards, 25, 30 yards away from you when you're shooting them. They will fall stone dead 150 yards away from you. Because they're what way down in that canyon. What and you don't see them hit the ground because it's uh it's over the hill and that canyon just disappears. And and I've there was one instance this this past year I I shot three birds on a cubby rise and never saw any b any of the three birds hit the ground. It was over a hill. I don't know, because what they'll do, they'll hit that hill and they'll just bounce. And just bounce and bounce. You don't know where they end up. And the this one of these pointers found all three birds.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. See, I've never hunted that kind of terra. And another thing I've never hunted, uh even in Penn, I've never hunted Chucker.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Well at um red-legged, what do they call them? Red legged devil birds, they um they say the first time it's for fun, the next time or your second time is for revenge. They they uh oh my goodness, in that hilly Idaho Hells Canyon country it is just so much work on the on the dogs and your and yourself. I tell you what's refreshing though, hunting the canyon is on the Oregon Trail is is real close in proximity to us. What those pioneers did on the trail, they would plant uh apple groves and plum thickets for the people coming in behind them to fight scurvy. They would eat that there's just an explosion of vitamin C to help combat scurvy. And you're out there hunting with your dog, even though it might have frosted a couple of times, it'll warm up during the day. It'll get hot. And it's real refreshing in that canyon to stop and take a break with your dog and eat those plums and and apples. Those apples really sweeten up after that first frost. And it's just a time of reflection and and uh and privilege that you have out there taking a break, eating eating those fruit that wild fruit that they planted back when they were going up and down that Oregon trail trying to better themselves, find a better life.
SPEAKER_00:I'd love it. I'm a huge history buff. That was my minor in undergrad, so yeah. Oh, nice. I have to that makes you want to go again. So um now let's switch gears a little bit. We've covered pharmigan, covered grouse, and it's something I want to come and do with you uh soon, hopefully, or whenever we we get together. Um until I've talked to you and someone put me in touch with you, and I can't remember who did that. Um I can't remember who put us together.
SPEAKER_01:Wade Bird, gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:How can I forget that man?
SPEAKER_01:Uh Wade Bird, you talk about one of the things.
SPEAKER_00:He's a dandy. You know, he's a very well-like guy and just true, true friend. I think the world of him. I'd forgotten Wade hooked me up with you. Uh I'm gonna try to hunt with Wade here soon. I'm gonna call him and hit him up. We were both in South Dakota, but just at different times. I was actually leaving when he was going. Okay. I'd give anything to hunt with him because we just haven't been able to click the uh to our schedules. But I had no clue, Brett. This shows you my ignorance a little bit of all the, you know, I knew what a Bob Wap quail was. I learned what a blue was when I moved to Midland, Texas, and seen these things running all over the place. You know, they were everywhere. Uh the first year I moved to Midland was 2012, and in 2013 they finally got rain because it hadn't had rain in a year. And there was a lot of blues, you know. Uh and people told me that I was like, you know, I'd love to hum. And I worked with a guy who was a big-time bird hunter, and you know, people said it's hard to hunt them with dogs as they run on the ground. But anyway, to me, that's the only species of quail that I really was aware of. And then I found out about you and talk to you and find about all these other species in Arizona. Let's talk about that. Educate me more. We've well you've given me a little inf information prior to our this podcast, but let's talk about that and hunting those.
SPEAKER_01:Well, in uh the beauty of Arizona, and you've got them in Texas too, but it's not as in the numbers that you have in Arizona. There's three birds. You've got the gamble quail with the black top nut, you got the the scaly or or blue, they they call them blues, uh, where I was from, or cotton tops, and then you have a bird called a Murns quail, and that's M-E-A-R-N-S, Murns. Uh believed. Teddy Roosevelt was instrumental in naming them Murns because of General Murns back in the Rough Rider days. Um but the Murns quail is very, very it's a true gentleman bird. Um dogs go on point and you can position people. Oh, come over here, because the birds aren't going anywhere. And come over here, position this person here, position that person here, they're gonna go right there, and they're still in there. And and I've walked in hundreds of times right through the middle of the cubby, walked right through the middle of the cubby and continue on 10 or 15 yards. The dogs are still rock solid behind me. I'm like, well, and I turn around and come back. And I'm coming back and I'm looking and I'm actually looking on the ground. I'm like, ooh, there's a bird right there. You could see him, actually see him on the ground. And and you're and you're okay, or and he and he's facing, like let's say he's facing north. Okay, he's gonna fly north. And and you're and you're waiting for him to flush, and you're going in, and you're going in, and you're going, and all of a sudden, ten birds around around him flush that you didn't see. And he's still there. And you've already missed out on the first ten that that flushed, and and then he flies, he's facing north, he flies south behind a tree, naturally. But as far as as a true gentleman bird, they they don't run. They will move and hide, but they don't run off like a blue or a gamble. Uh if you if you it really, really polishes up a dog hunting hunting a Murns quail. It it's uh it's a it's a beautiful bird. Beautiful bird. It's the prettiest bird there, quail I think there is, besides California quail. It's pretty close second. But those Murns quail are very, very friendly with the dog.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Now it uh what are are they in all different seasons? Are they in different regions in Arizona?
SPEAKER_01:They're yeah, they're totally different habitat. You're down in country that looks like Fredericksburg.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh they're in Oaks, Rolling Hill Oaks, uh Juniper uh habitat is where they are. Uh about 4,800, 5200 elevation uh uh in feet is where they're at in your your desert birds. We just call them desert birds or murns. Desert you're referring to this to the blues or the gambles, the marns are you referring to the Merns. And that's down around the the border, the the US Mexico border. They're closer to that. And down around Senoita, Senoita, Arizona is is is where I do quite a bit of hunting. And you you seriously, you think you're in Fredericksburg? You totally come up out of that desert floor into the oak and juniper juniper habitat, and that that's where the burns are.
SPEAKER_00:You know, right here my ranch is I'm I'm about an hour and a half from Fredericksburg, I'm in uh Menard. Okay. So kind of what you're describing. This is my elevation here is about 3,000 versus what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01:Well that uh speaking of elevation in Alaska, 2,000 feet, you're above the timber line. It's it's really odd up there. But uh but yeah, that's that's the difference. Now that in really, really, really good years in Arizona, uh, you get all three without moving the truck. That's it's very rare, and we've done it half a dozen different times, but you'll get all three species. When the when the murns are in the mesquites, you've got a chance of getting all three species in one day.
SPEAKER_00:Now, do you guide hunts as well, correct? I do. You probably don't advertise or probably don't have to advertise, do you?
SPEAKER_01:Not much. Because well, I'm retired now and I can do it quite a bit more, but I I don't do the guiding I I used to, but uh yeah, word of mouth in this bird hunting fraternity, it it it's it's like a it's like a forest fire. It's bridge birds.
SPEAKER_00:Now have you hunted with White Bird?
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Does he come out there? Yeah, that's a whole other show. Okay, yeah. Uh he uh I've been noticing he's put he got him a it looks like he pimped up his dog trailer. I haven't got to look at it real well, but I saw some on social media.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he so he he built the first one.
SPEAKER_00:Now, do you do you ever have you ever hunted with Adrian Jackson?
SPEAKER_01:I I've not hunted with him, but I've I've been around him some time.
SPEAKER_00:I had him on the show. Uh we had a good time on the show. Okay, nice. He's a really, really good one. Yeah, man, I like him. He he we had a good time on the show. We I don't know, we we talked forever. But uh I'm gonna try to go up there and hunt those guys. Uh I I met Wade actually at a Ronnie and Susanna Smith training seminar. Okay. Back in actually about spring a lot, this early spring this year. Um So what was I gonna I was gonna ask you another question, it'll come to here in a second. The uh have you do the guys that you hunt with do they use other breeds or are all you guys pointer guys? English pointer guys.
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh pointers and short hairs. There's a gentleman, there's a vet out of Idaho, uh Doug Walker. He he has an incredible team. He's got a lab and a short hair. And he does a lot more duck hunting. He he's he's a he's part-time waterfowler. But I tell you what, that lab and that short hair are are quite the team. And they they fit like like he had a picture in his mind what he wanted. Like I was talking about earlier, he had in his mind the the team he wanted, and he came up with it. And uh the the the lab will heal when that short hair goes on goes on point. It's kind of like the lab is pointing too, but he's not pointing, he's just healing.
SPEAKER_00:But uh Tim and I run pointers. And and the lab, does it flush? Just retrieve?
SPEAKER_01:No, it's strictly retrieved. Strict strictly retrieved. It'll trail them birds up just like a like a pointer or something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Now, the Idaho hunting, is that public land mostly?
SPEAKER_01:Mostly, yeah. There's some there's some other some private stuff we get on, uh, but most mostly it's um it's it's public land.
SPEAKER_00:And then what about Arizona? Is that public?
SPEAKER_01:It's all public. It's all public. There it just goes over the curve.
SPEAKER_00:You know, Brett, until this year, you know, I hunted South Dakota four years in a row. It's private land, but uh until this year, I never, you know, you're in Texas, right? There's no public land hunting. None I'm aware of. If they are, somebody point me out to it. But uh, yeah, you get up there and it's amazing, especially Montana. Do you hunt Montana? I do. You know, they've got that block management system, and someone told me about it. It ducks unlimited or something was telling me about it, but I didn't really uh comprehend it. And then I was driving uh to go, I was actually had been duck hunting and was coming back, and and I saw this sign in this little box, and I thought, hmm, that rings a bell. Maybe that's what they were telling me about. So I stopped and it's got cards to fill out, and you hunt for the day. Uh never date you hunt there, you fill out the card, and I thought, this is amazing. And the the public land everywhere, it was pretty, pretty nice for a hunter. Hey, it's Kenneth Whipp with the Gundog Nation podcast, and we are so proud to be partnered with the National Shoot to Retrieve Association, also known as Nastra. Nastra has a common love for producing the best bird dogs possible. It's a great community that builds and bonds everlasting friendships. I've actually got to meet a lot of the Nastra members and who's taken me hunting and some other crowds hunting and stuff in different places. So I can honestly say I'm a member and I'm proud to be partnered with them. NASTA hosts national and regional field trials that emphasize the working ability of bird dogs. They have been around for over 50 years. There's a reason that Nastra's been around that long. Please check them out at www.nstra.org. And belong and support your local Master Club. They do have national and regional events, and it's a good place to help learn to be a better dog trainer, a better dog owner, and to compete with your bird dog. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it is. There's guys that will go out to Montana before the season starts and work their dogs. Those sharp tails are, you know, and and later on, the the sharp tails, you know, I don't think it's educated because I've I've known of some areas that they're sharp tails, and you go in there in December. These birds have never been hunted. Never been hunted. And you go in there in December and they're flushing 150 yards out in front of you. And I don't think it's pressure that makes them that way. I think it's just what God did for uh to to preserve and give them a defense. I don't think it's pressure that makes them that wild. I think it's just in their DNA.
SPEAKER_00:You know, uh I hunted around Lewistown, Montana. Montana and early season and was pretty successful. But when I got and hunted Montana later in October, I went back up there. They were flushing way out of range. Every single one. Never got a point on a grouse that was shootable.
SPEAKER_01:What time of year?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I went back around October 8th, 9th, and hunted state Montana. I was duck hunting and water and grouse hunting both. And never I never got to shoot a grouse. I mean I s we jumped them, but oh sure.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They're out there.
SPEAKER_00:But uh but now they said that area I was in, it was the northeast Montana, you know, they'd had a big hail storm and the numbers were really down. And everybody I I talked to guys that hadn't even seen a grouse.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And uh because you know, Uh is up up there. You pull in a gas station with a dog trailer or a dog box, there are probably four or five more pulling in there too. And you know, it's a good way to get a scouting report. Uh sure. But uh but no, it's it's really nice. Uh so what I want to do, you know, this year it was a bucket list thing. I, you know, just for your for our conversation purposes, I'm gonna ask you something else. Uh, you know, I did I did Wisconsin, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana. I I ran over to Canada, but I didn't get to Upland hunting Canada's waterfowl only, even though I saw some grass when I was up there in Saskatchewan. But this 26, I'd like to to change that up and like do Idaho, but it sounds like I better get in shape.
SPEAKER_01:Uh oh, if you hunt Hell's Canyon, that uh that that separates the men from the boys there. You put in a three or four hour hunt there, you're um you're stiff the next day. And we'll hunt six, seven days in a row, and it's it's all the dogs can handle. I mean, they and they need they need a couple of weeks after that.
SPEAKER_00:That's do you you know uh I've tried some different products while I was hunting them pretty hard up there. Uh uh I met the guy that owned a tree refuel, and he's been sending me stuff to use. It's it's a paste. It's it smells and looks like peanut butter. It's got peanut butter in it, but I I was using that kind of recovery for the dogs, just trying it out. They seem to like it. It's all human-grade stuff. I mean, if I got down and out weak, I could eat it myself. And uh I didn't do that, but you can. I mean, I don't think it's recommended on the box. But anyway, and then I also tried another buddy of mine gave me some Zoom dog just enzyme tablets, basically for like Gatorade or something. And I would try that with my dogs in their waters, but tablets, excuse me, and let them dissolve. I'm thinking about that and getting thirsty. But do you do anything? You you you're running dogs in hard country and hard train. What's your nutrition regimen? Because I bet you know, have a good one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you go the the trick what a dog needs to do when he's trying to recover is eat. They need to eat. And a lot of times a dog gets so tired they don't eat. So what we do, we'll mix canned dog food with our regular pro plan um high protein dog food that we that we feed them right now. We'll mix that that canned dog food with it in order for them to eat. That's really the only thing that I really concentrate on is to make those dogs eat. And the only way to really do I don't do it straight canned dog food, it gets a little rich. And traveling like we travel in dog boxes and stuff, you don't want to you don't want to have any any issues there. So you mix that with your that pro plan uh food that we're using right now, I think it's like 21, 22 percent protein. It's high protein, you don't want to feed it to them year-round. But when they're burning all those calories, you know, these dogs will go 26, 27 miles a day in those hills. And they just you just it it's like bread and water. It it you just keep it simple. A dog doesn't sweat, so I don't I don't think I I don't really look into electrolytes that that I don't try to give them electrolytes. I they just need to eat and drink water. Water, just food and water, get them to eat.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I keep my dogs on 3020 pro plan uh purena for hunt season. And you know, I I do, especially on my labs, I have to up their food intake a little bit. And my pointer, I've noticed. And I just I just I don't ever measure dog food. I I I mean I use a cup, obviously, but I I watch my dog's waistline and their ribs. That's what I try to do. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just keep it simple. I mean, it um I the quicker they eat after a big like uh played football uh in in high school and in college. There was food everywhere. There there I mean you need to eat. And we had pregame meals and after the game meals, and uh and the quicker they eat after a hard hunt, the quicker they recover.
SPEAKER_00:Where'd you go to college, Brad?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, but kind of all around. I uh started out at South Plains Junior College in Lavaland. And when a year there went over to uh San Angelo State and um down in San Angelo, Texas, went went there and then walked on at University of Texas. And uh and then that was that was I I I needed uh after that experience, I I I need to get me an education. And it's not gonna happen here. But uh went up to um to Arlington, went to ITT and got an engineering degree or degree out of uh there at ITT there in Arlington.
SPEAKER_00:I I'm I'm only probably a hundred and uh not a hundred, I'm only about an hour and ten minutes from San Angelo State. Now through when you I was there yesterday because that's where I have to go shop. Uh but yeah, you come down Christoville through Toneel Trail and my ranch is on 190. Yeah. I see. Okay, great. A mile in Slicker County.
SPEAKER_01:I was born in Slicker County.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, Menor County.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Menor, okay. I hunted in um uh Mason out of Mason.
SPEAKER_00:I'm 50 miles from Mason or less.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, good deal.
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm gonna ask you I will I will get your reaction here. So I bet I was at Delta Waterfowl convention back in the summer uh in Oklahoma City, and I bid on I I don't usually bid on stuff these auctions. It was a fundraiser auction, but um I'll do raffle ticks or something. But anyway, I I I bid on a hunt and won. And only one other person bid, and there wasn't a lot of interest in it, and I couldn't figure out why. And I got it, it was it was a very valuable hunt, and I got for about almost a little over 10% of what it cost. I thought, well, there's a catch here, something right, you know, no one else is bidding on this, and I won. It's too good to be true. Anyway, I won uh uh a hunt at St. Paul Island, Alaska the day after Christmas for five days through New Year's Day of actual hunting. So it's that sea duck, you know, idler. And I didn't know I didn't know where St. Paul Island was. And then I realized, you know, I I did save a lot of money on the hunt, but the airfare, because you got to fly to Anchorage, then take a charter four hours to the island, you're basically in the middle of the Baron Sea, you're about as close to Russia as you are to Anchorage, and and probably listed from the Arctic Circle. So you being a man that's worked up the am I crazy? Is this gonna be a bad hardcore hunt? Or what do you think I should expect?
SPEAKER_01:I it's gonna be raining. Well, you know, by then it may be snowing, but I bet I bet you're gonna have them have have mixed I would I would pack for uh I'd pack for wet. I think that but it could be a lot of a lifetime.
SPEAKER_00:I you know, I almost when I realized what I'd done and what I won, you know, I thought, man, maybe I shouldn't do this, you know. This is crazy. Uh but and that's what I thought. I thought, you know what, I that you only live once, and uh it's as it's a bucket list for a lot of hardcore waterfowlers. And I'm not a hardcore waterfowler. I love to I love to duck hunt. But I'm honestly I'm fairly new to the to the game. But uh Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well you're gonna you're gonna see some waterfowl that they don't see in the lower 48.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's and and that's an what kind of got me interested too, because they had pictures of, you know, on the when they do those auctions, they got uh a movie screen up there. Yeah. So I saw those ducks, and I'd been following uh oh shoot, what is it's the pit his name's pit boss guy, Jeff Coates, Jeff Coates out of Maryland, who's always posted all kinds of sea duck, you know, he he does sea duck hunts. And uh so I had been following him and watching. I thought, man, that is a cool looking duck, and I'd love to do that one day. And I was gonna go with Jeff, and I will one of these days because that's a lot warmer than Alaska, but uh I actually have you can't really see them here, uh some actually I can do this. I don't think it'll mess up too bad, but he he makes decoys too. Jeff Coates makes some really nice decoys, but that's I don't know if you can see those up there. Let's see here. Yeah. Oh yeah. So he made those first two on the right, he made the other one I wanted something, but they're both ducks in that ocean, you know, habitat.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you'll find some very colorful and very unique ducks that I've never seen in Mississippi.
SPEAKER_00:You know, uh the one thing I liked about hunting Montana is there's a lot of different species of duck. But uh in Canada, when I did Canada, we were snow goose hunting mainly, but there were still a lot of different species of duck. Uh but there's so many I've not killed, you know. But uh well, I know you're busy and you're it's hunting season for you. Uh we'll get off here because I want I want to work out a trip through to Arizona. Just just for the record, too, what is the Arizona season? How does that run?
SPEAKER_01:It's like mid-October, I think 17th it opened this year. Mid-October to the first week of February. Now, the Burns that doesn't open until the first week of December. And it'll go to the first week of February.
SPEAKER_00:It's a shorter season but ends at the same time. Okay. Correct. Correct. Well, I definitely like to do that. I I'll see what your schedule's like. The only thing I'm doing in January, I I go every year with a friend and his some of his buddies to uh Lubbock. We sand hill crane hunt up there. And uh you know, it's uh I tell everybody this, and I like I said I'm not a waterfowl expert, but I can't imagine better hunting for St. Hill Crane than Lubbock, Texas area.
SPEAKER_01:I know it.
SPEAKER_00:They they just they just pile in the it's and then I can about say that for Saskatchewan on that snow goose. Uh it was insane. It it they remind me of each other like the numbers of birds, just you know, millions. It looked like millions. I don't know how many there were, but that's correct. Sure. I'll bring it up. Do you ever get to hunt up in there? Do you do that any? Are you strictly upland?
SPEAKER_01:Up in around uh I'm strictly upland. Uh we've done some some waterfowling. Uh did some shows for Working Man's Retriever and some other other shows and stuff, and we actually went up to Canada up around Pontex, Saskatchewan, and hunted Hungarian partridge and and waterfowl both. And but uh the the waterfowling is it's like you know, I gotta take it in small doses because I can get hooked real easy, and and you talk about another rabbit hole to go down because I'm uh I'm pretty invested in upland hunting and that waterfowling, it's it's it's a it's another drug, man. It um you can really get sucked into that. It's a really addicting, that's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's right, and I'm trying to figure out I'm I'm I'm trying to figure out you know what I love waterfowl hunting and shooting, but I also love walking with dogs too. But the thing about waterfowl hunting, you know this better than I do, but you get out and set up for just example sandhill crane or snow geese, you get out and set out 300 to 500 decoys, and those people helping you. And then you take them all back down. If you hunt twice a day, you're doing that twice in a day. I mean, it's you know, it's it's a work, it's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01:I I did, I'll tell you a real quick funny here about I did some shows with American Bird Hunter out of out of Michigan, and there was a gentleman there that originated that show, his nickname was the general, and we would be out setting uh decoys at 4 a.m., 3 30, 4, 4 30 a.m. And you just have to get up so early with the waterfall and you don't have to do that with uplands. And you'd get up so early, and the general was like, Why did we have to go? I gotta grab some one second. No, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:You were saying that you had to get up pretty early for the decoys.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness, you don't do that with upland bird hunting. I mean, you uh especially if you're hunting Hungarian partridge, you want them to feed a little bit, scratch around a little bit, because if the Hungarian partridge is feeding, you're not gonna get up on him. So uh we're out there setting up decoys, and the general is walking around and just complaining, complaining, and complaining about having to get up so early. He'd say, We're not storming the beaches of Normandy. Why do we have to be out here so darn early?
SPEAKER_00:Hey, I agree. Them guys kill me. My my Texas base in Montana, they they like to kill me. I mean, those guys are hardcore. Uh, you know, and they're up and they I think they're they're so enthused, they'll get up like an hour earlier than you need to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, they're they're they have internal waterfowl clubs.
SPEAKER_00:And uh yeah, that's uh, and then we they want you to park four miles, you know, away from where you gotta hunt that. I I'm telling you, uh I was killed. Um but uh and then you know yeah, you gotta get up early. That's why and I love South Dakota pheasant hunting because you can't hunt before 10 a.m. No, I'll get up, not at all.
SPEAKER_01:Well, in those watercolors, I was with a uh the group we filmed a show in out of Spokane, and these guys pull up in a triple axle trailer, completely a cargo trailer, complete, completely full of decoys and all this triple axle. You needed a three-quarter ton or one ton pulled up.
SPEAKER_00:The guys in Canada had a dual axle, and it was huge with those snow duck, snow geese decoys. And then they we put out a few duck decoys in with it, and then they had a Canadian run. I mean, oh it it it was uh it's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01:Uh it's a lot of work. It gets it gets spindy, those decoys, they don't get it. Oh my goodness. I know that's the rabbit hole I was talking about. I don't want to go in that waterfowl route. I'm invested in what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can't imagine what those decoys cost those guys in Canada. I mean, I I it's it's um I can't. I'm just now that you're saying that, I started to think of the numbers. But yeah. Um, if if you want people to reach you, Brett, do you want to tell them how or uh yeah, sure, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Um email address, um it's real easy. Brett Browning at me at ME.com. Uh you're welcome to call uh 520-833-2722. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Now are you on I don't have it no show. Are you on social media?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, not not really. Uh I I just never did warm-up to that. And um email and and cell phone are the best way to get a hold of me.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Well, Brett, it's been a real education. I mean, this is a I've been wanting to do a podcast like this. I hate doing the same old, same old stories on a podcast, and this is definitely one for the books that I've uh the good thing what I love about this job, Brett, is I I learn as much as anybody else listening, you know, about this, and it helps me be a better dog guy, better hunter, and and uh plus it all it it also gets me down rabbit holes.
SPEAKER_01:So Oh, sure. Well I t I tell you what, uh if you want to do another one sometime, I could we could really get in the weeds about uh Arizona, New Mexico, Texas on what these birds feed on, what to look for, and how to uh position your dogs. And if you want to expand a little more, we could go into absolutely let's do that.
SPEAKER_00:Matter of fact, uh we may set a time here in the next two months uh to do that. I'm I'm gonna run to I'm going to Scotland and Ireland for the the International Retriever Championship this month. Okay. And then December is that is December. But it's that Alaska thing. Yeah. But still, in between then, you and I, you know, we're we can do morning stuff too, uh, whatever works, but I'd love to have you on there. That would be a great podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I'd be pleased.
SPEAKER_00:Brett Brown, it's been a pleasure having you on here, and this won't be our last one. Uh good luck up there in South Dakota. And uh when are you coming back home for good for for the season?
SPEAKER_01:I I'm I'll be here through Thanksgiving. Uh you just use I just can't pull myself away from these ringnecks. And uh then I'll then I'll probably head over to New Mexico, hunt hunt over New Mexico. I've got some some stuff over there I want to joust around a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:But Thanksgiving's pretty getting pretty cold up there in Dakotas, isn't it?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, oh my goodness. Yes, I only brought only brought clothes to get me to to the first part of DC.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it hadn't got you know, I always hunt there in October, so it's never bad in October, but that November started I've I've heard I've never hunted November there, but I can remember. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh sure. I I I tell you real quick, uh, the coldest I've hunted up here is uh my truck said 18 below, and I knew not to get those pointers out of the box to lose their heat. I didn't even get my dogs out. 18 below, that was too cold for me, much less than a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:You know, speaking of that, I've got a Jones trailer and it's well real insulated. And you can open the box, open the door, and it's amazing how warm it is inside. And plus the dogs, all the different dogs' body heat helps, but yeah, I I'm real impressed.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I've got hound eaters in my box in the back of my truck. And you you've got two dogs in there and uh hound eaters going, and then you put a comforter over that, and you're gonna be able to get it.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna have to look that up. Uh well, Brett, it's been a it's been a pleasure. I want to get you back. We'll definitely schedule one to get back. And uh good luck up there. Stay safe, have a safe drive back to Arizona or to New Mexico and then to home. But uh anyway, thank you for being on here. We're gonna get you back and we will talk about uh some you know dog stuff about how to position those dogs and and training them and working them in those states.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I look forward to it, Ken.
SPEAKER_00:All right, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01:You bet. Take care.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, this is Kenneth Whitt with Gundog Nation, and I'd like to encourage all you listeners and viewers on our YouTube channel to check out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation. For$10 a month, you can become a member of our community and we'll have access to lots of stuff. Mainly we'll do a monthly forum, an open forum where you can ask me anything gun dog related and we'll learn from each other in the community. Should be a lot of fun each month. We will do that. So check it out patreon.com forward slash gun dognation.