Episode 13: Celebrating Our Baba – Motherhood, Tradition, Values, and Unconditional Love

Everyone needs a Baba and we’ve decided to lend you ours for the next hour. In this episode we sit down with our Baba (our Dad's mom) to explore her incredible journey as a wife, mother, and the child of Bulgarian immigrants. Baba shares stories of the vibrant culture she grew up in, from traditions to values that have shaped her life and our whole extended family. We always leave visits with her feeling like we can conquer the world and we hope you get a taste of that while listening in to our conversation.

We delve into her perspective on motherhood, celebrating its richness, beauty, and deep importance. Baba reflects on how she still prioritized pursuing her passions, including her work as a docent at the art museum, while raising a family.

We also talk about her marriage. Baba and Grandpa's relationship continues to inspire us, showing that love can (and should) be enduring, fun, and life-giving (and full of spice). They’ve never been afraid to forge their own path. We’re grateful to be part of one of their many adventures together.

Join us for this uplifting conversation honoring the legacy of family, strong traditions, strong values, and love.

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

You two look so official, big

headphones and all.

(...) (Laughter)

I know.

I know. So professional. Yeah.

(...)

So professional.

(...)

I like the eye roll. That was good. Thank you.

(...)

Emily, I was saying I was really trying to place where Baba was in her house because of that color. It's like, what room is that color? Oh, you're in your bedroom, huh? Right? Yeah.

(...)

Yeah, I told Kelly, and I'm in a nice, soft lounge chair. My feet are up on an ottoman.(...) I have a little pillow for my phone.

(...)

Great news. Look at her. What a difference from last time.

(...)

I think I was sweating.

I probably had to change my clothes after last time.

It was such a-- I had such a good time talking to the two of you. It didn't make any difference, though I know you wound up for your cob cast. But this was so-- it was so much fun.

It was. Honestly, my favorite part was the FaceTime afterwards, though, when we were just having a nice conversation. Yes. So funny. Yeah.

(...)

Well, should we dive in?

You ready?(...) Absolutely.(...) That's why I purposely didn't watch anything before this. You know what?

I can go back and watch-- listen to them. You haven't listened to any of the interviews? No.

Because I didn't want to be-- I didn't want to be tainted.

(...)

This is fun. OK, so now after we publish your-- after we record yours, you can go listen to all your daughters. I will. I definitely will.

So fun. It was-- it was just so fun. And they're so different, which was like the best part. Yeah.

(...) Oh, just like you all-- oh, I have great-- I have to grab a Kleenex. I'm sorry. Even if you can't see me, I'm not going to be dripping. That is so old lady.

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

Yeah. And you girls will be so different. If someone did this to you later on, all of you will be so different.

(...) Yeah, true. Yeah. And that's a good thing. That is a good thing.

Yeah. I feel like teaching, I always-- I was drawn to the families where I would have, you know, two or three of their kids. And I loved it when the kids were so different. Like that just told me that the parents were probably interesting, you know, if the kids were all-- Yeah.

(...) It's fun. It's a good point. It is fun. Yeah. Yeah.(...) Well, to kick us off, today we're joined by our baba.(...) And I hear that word. When I say it, there's just-- there's so much wrapped up in it. So I just want to briefly contextualize for our listeners.

(...)

Baba is Bulgarian for grandmother.

(...)

She is our dad's mom, wife to our beloved grandpa,(...) first generation American and daughter to brave immigrants,(...) mother to our aunties and uncle, matriarch of the family, protector of tradition, feast maker, intrepid traveler, and champion of art, vessel for more energy and verve than any five people combined ought to have any right to.

(...)

She's truly a force of nature. And the title's necklace could go on for days. But instead of talking about all the crucial roles she's occupied for the people in her life, we're actually just here to hear about her stories today. So thanks for joining us, baba. It'll be fun, I think.

(...) I would also like to add-- and this isn't a negative. This is a positive quality. Baba is the genetic-- she's the genesis of our peasant sweating gene. So whenever I'm slightly

warm and I just start sweating, I fondly think, thank you, baba.

(...)

And it doesn't go away.

Great.

(...)

(Laughter)

Oh.

Yep, unresponsible.

(...)

Oh, it's so funny.

OK, so baba, you are talking to a fresh generation of budding matriarchs.

(...)

What is something that you hope we cherish in the years to come?

(...)

I hope you just cherish being moms

(...)

and just love your time with your children.(...) Sometimes it'll be frustrating.(...) Sometimes you'll be really ticked off. Sometimes they'll be really ticked off at you.(...) But the bottom line is it's just the most rewarding job in the world. And I hope that-- and I've seen you two in action. You are already wonderful moms, and you're loving your children. And it shows. They are well-loved, happy children. Can't ask for anything more. That's it.

(...)

True. Yeah.

(...)

I think-- and to take responsibility. And you're doing that too.

(...)

Take responsibility for which piece of it? There are so many things that we could take responsibility for.

(Laughter)

Well,(...) I think children need guidance. I think they need boundaries.

(...)

And they're happier.

(...)

I don't mean rigid boundaries. You want to accept them for what they are. But when they're doing something that is totally inappropriate-- that was a word I used a lot. That is just inappropriate.

(...)

Inside and out of the home?

Was it-- Oh, absolutely. Catch all? Don't ever embarrass the kids outside of the home. But if they're being inappropriate, they have to be told.

(...)

And it's OK.

I like that word, actually.(...) Yeah.

Yeah.(...) Because it's just not a cool thing to be doing. So maybe you should think about not doing it or stop doing it. And hopefully not throwing a temper tantrum.

(...)

(Laughter)

And if any mother ever tells you their child never threw a temper tantrum, they either have aphasia or they're lying.

(...)

(Laughter)

You know what I just saw this morning was a reel of Princess Kate of her with her daughter. I don't even know her daughter's name. But this reel of her daughter throwing temper tantrums with Princess Kate looking so put together and unfazed and just picking up this tantruming toddler and just holding her arm like, oh, even her kid has tantrums.

(...)

Yes, exactly.(...) Exactly, they do. Yeah.

That's funny. The other thing is to have fun with your kids.

(...)

With all the work and all the responsibility,

(...)

it's still fun. It really is. And I see you doing that, too.

(...)

They are fun. So far, it's been a good run. All 16 months of it for me.

(Laughter)

Oh, 17.

Aren't you at 17? Oh, now it's 16. Yeah.

(...)

And they change so quickly. They really do. I remember thinking that, oh, this child is the most adorable they could ever possibly be. Then a month later, they're different again.(...) I used to think that this is God's way of saying, eventually you have to let go.(...) And they'll be adults and gone.

(...) When did you have that thought? Because you and Grandpa are just, frankly, fun, interesting people that I would be honored to be friends with if you were not my grandparents. But it's a similar sentiment that I hear from my aunties, my dad. You are those people, as far as I can tell, for your children, their spouses.

(...)

So the age of the generation doesn't seem to matter to you and Grandpa, which I think is difficult for a lot of parents of adults to wrap their head around. When did you have that thought of this is so beautiful, this must be God's way of telling me to let go? I would never have put those together.

(...) Actually, I think probably when Mark and Katie, the two oldest ones,

(...)

then I would see it all over again with the other three. Because they go through these phases sometimes where they're just so cute and they're happy and they're just so adorable.

(...)

And you say, oh, OK, next stage.

(...)

So I remember thinking of it really young.

(...)

Well, you were, what, 21 when you had dad?

(...)

No, 20, please. I wasn't that young. I'm 22.

(...) Really big difference.

(...)

I remember I was standing-- I remember which intersection I was standing at on my college campus.(...) And I think you called me for my birthday and it hit me like, oh, oh, oh my god, Baba had dad at this age in her life.

(...)

Are you kidding me?(...) Insanity.(...) And you had just gotten back from Germany too, right?

(...) Yes, I was six and a half months pregnant when we got back.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so you were pregnant in a different country for your-- when did you get married? How old were you?

(...)

20.

(...)

OK, since we're talking about ages and years and chronology, can we just back up and start at the beginning?(...) I would love to hear about--

(...)

You started this. That's a hard thing to say. I know. I was just spitballing. We're loose around here. We don't want to picture.

(...)

I want to start at the beginning for our listeners a little bit. Baba, could you just give a little summary of your childhood? I know that's a hard thing to ask, but you have such a fascinating background. And I know we're going to be asking you about your mom and dad.

(...)

I had, I think, a wonderful and very interesting childhood. Because even though we lived in Toledo,(...) I grew up in little Bulgaria.

(...)

So we had all these Bulgarian traditions-- food, language, name days, getting together.(...) One of the most beautiful thing was that people didn't have telephones.(...) I think I was maybe nine or 10 when we had a telephone in the house. So we had to make physical contact with people. You had to get up and walk to their house.

(...)

And I remember loving all of the Bulgarian traditions.

(...)

I remember someone asking me, not even just one person. I think several people throughout my life were asking, well, wasn't it strange having all these Bulgarian people around you? And wasn't it strange with all these accents and things? Or weren't you ever embarrassed? And the question shocked me. Because I truly felt very enriched by having this culture.(...) And when people got together, they sang, they danced, they talked politics, of course.

(...)

Even growing up, I loved where I was.

(...)

I think that it was-- yeah.

You just really passed-- you passed that on to us. So it's just such a part of who we are. If someone asks me what my heritage is or my culture, Bulgarian is top of mind, right? And then lastly, how Bulgarian are you? I'm like, OK, like a quarter, like a quarter. But really, I'm more like--(...) because you even took us. We got to go to those big dances. And I remember going to Baba Marika's church and the funerals and the celebrations. So you really even passed that on to us. And I'm so proud of it.

Oh, that's how I felt as a kid, too. And all throughout my life, I just really felt that I was enriched and that people didn't have multiple cultures growing up. That, golly, they were missing out.

(...)

But my dad also was an uber proud American.

(...)

And my mom came here-- I think I told you girls-- it was an arranged marriage.

(...)

They exchanged letters. They exchanged pictures.(...) And in 1937, she came over on a boat(...) to marry a man she had never met.

(...) And she didn't get to choose, right?

(...)

She did, but her mother strongly encouraged her to go.

(...)

And the area of Bulgaria she lived in, they were still living like a medieval society, where they would have their homes and then walk out to the fields. And then there was the village center,

(...)

where they could all gather and do things. And the Orthodox Church was a big part of that.

(...)

But no, it was--

(...)

where was I going with that?

(...)

Emily just asked for a synopsis of your childhood with your parents.

I had a wonderful big brother. He was always there for me. And when girls say, oh, I would love to have a big brother, they only wanted to have a big brother if they had mine.

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

And I think that was a big part of it, too, because life was very stressful for my parents. They came here with nothing,(...) absolutely nothing. And my dad was older when he had us. He was in his 40s. And he came here with a junior high education,(...) went to night school to learn to read and write English. He knew more American history than any college American history major.

(...)

But his jobs were tough.

(...)

He would work at the Ordocks. He would work in the shipyards. And sometimes he would get laid off.

(...)

And those were very, very scary times. And he also got seriously injured on the job twice.

(...)

And that was scary. It really was.

(...)

And it was tough for my mother to come here with no language skills or anything.(...) So there was a lot of stress in their lives, too.

(...)

But it still was a very rich, rich growing up for me.

When did God--(...) Oh, so sorry.

(...)

I thought so even at the time.

(...)

Was that something that you think you inherited from Baba Bureka and Daru? When you talk about holding the stress of injuries and layoffs and uncertainty, but also at the time feeling so positively about your situation, was that just part of your household makeup? Or do you think that's more you?

(...)

I think more me.

(...)

My mom,

(...)

life was stressful for her. And everyone on the outside thought she was this happy-go-lucky, loving person, which she was.

(...)

But things were also tough for her, too.

(...)

But she was a terrific, wonderful mother-in-law.

(...)

Never said one thing against your grandpa. Never said one thing against my sister-in-law. Not one thing. That's a great mother-in-law.

(...)

It was total support.

(...)

Plus-- That's actually-- Emily and I have talked about how you and grandpa have been the example of just being support(...) and not saying anything negative about marriage or family or the way that you are parenting or that you're in a relationship. You two just really have been the example of how to only be supportive.

(...)

Oh, I hope so. Because you kids are all terrific, and you have to go your own way. And I don't want you to do what I did. You'll do your thing.

(...)

I don't think we could recreate it if we tried.

(...)

Sometimes I do try, and I'm

like, oh, man. Oh, no.

You all are doing great. I am so myself of all responsibility.

(...)

It's a good feeling, actually. It really is. To have confidence in your kids to raise their kids and your grandchildren to raise your children. It's a good feeling.

It really is. Extreme generational wealth. Yeah. Extreme. You can figure out how to go after money. You can figure out how to get after fitness. Or you can read books about health or how you should be nourishing your body with. But you can't--

(...)

you can do the best for your partner and your children and your friends and your circle, but you really have a huge head start when you're not undoing all of the generational baggage that has traumatized you or your parents previously.

(...)

There's no replacement for a strong foundation of love and support, I don't think.

I think you're absolutely right, Emily. And I have said so often, I really don't know how anyone functions without the love of support of family and friends. I really don't know how they do. And so many people don't have that, which is why we have always tried,(...) even when we were very, very young, to give back in some way to the community. Because we have just been so extraordinarily blessed. We really have been. And it's not because we are these fantastic, wonderful, virtuous people. We've worked hard, but other people have worked hard. And they've just been dumped on. And we really have not. We just have had one blessing after another, after another, after another.

(...)

Tess, we still like each other after 60-some years. That's a big deal.

Yeah.(...) Yes, agreed. I called you last night, and you pick up the phone. And I was like, oh, Baba, how are you? Oh, I'm just trash and grandpa over here.

(...)

Well, they have to keep it spicy. How about when Sadie got engaged, and we're at Camp Sisu, and we're all holding hands. We're all in-- like, you know, little cousins, aunt's uncles, whatever. William was just proposed. And Baba goes,

(...) and I pray for Sadie and William that they have plenty of fights. And we're all thinking, what?

(...)

That they have plenty of makeup

sex.

(...)

I drink all of that.

(...)

I forgot about that.

(...)

I sure didn't.

(...)

Well,

(...)

they did have five children, Callie.

(...)

I can only think of one other instance, and this is really funny, that tap slap, because like your dad, Grandpa did lots of hunting, lots of fishing. And there was one fall when he went off with two men in the Rocky Mountains. They had horses. They got dropped off in the middle of the mountain, set up a tent for sleeping, another tent for cooking and bathing and that kind of stuff. And two weeks later, they were picked up.

Wow.

He was home for five days.(...) And then he took off for two weeks of fishing. So I thought, I'm not going to stay home. I'm invited to these gatherings, so I'm going to go. So I was talking to our dear friend who was older, who has since passed away, but was such a fantastic gentleman, Carter Smith. And he was introducing me to something. And they said, well, where's your husband? I said, well, he came home five days ago for his conjugal rights and took off again.

(...)

And it just came off the top of my head. And I thought, why am I doing this?

(...)

Oh my gosh.

Baba, do you mind putting your collar down again? Your legs kind of--

(...)

Is that better? Yes. I just really want those stories to stay in. I can't take them back.

(Laughter)

No!

(...)

I've never been truly proper, I'm sorry.

(...) So funny. Well, and was that something that was valued when you were a girl growing up? Oh, no.(...) Being proper was not valued?

(...)

Being proper was highly valued. And I was the rebel, because not only were girls rose clearly defined in the 40s, but Bulgarian girl roles were clearly defined.

(...)

And so I wasn't supposed to go out and climb trees or swing on the tire swing and do all these things I love to do. And that caused a lot of conflict with my mom, because she wanted me to be this sweet, quiet, proper little Bulgarian girl that I just wasn't.

(...)

I always liked to be outside. I always liked to do things. And that wasn't what was accepted.

(...)

So when you look at your life now versus when you were that little girl, does it look the same as you thought it would look? Did you dream about where you would be in your 80s?

No. I kind of take things-- I always have had goals,(...) goals for what we're going to be doing as a couple, goals for me, some things I wanted to learn by a certain age. But they were always loose and flexible,(...) because you always get thrown curves. You could only plan so much. And then you get kind of a slap on the wrist. It says, oh, you really think you have this plant? Well,(...) don't think so. So I pictured that--

(...)

I guess I never pictured how re-riching and rewarding it would be to have all of you grandchildren be part of our lives and want to be part of our lives. That is a gift beyond measure. It just is. I couldn't have conceived of how wonderful that is, because I didn't know.(...) And that is-- I'm in a perfect spot. I really am. Grandpa and I still have fun. We laugh together.

(...)

And even if some health issues come up, we're dealing with it.

(...)

So truly,(...) I can't complain anything about my life. I just can't.

(...)

I'm lucky. I'm very, very blessed. Not lucky. It's a blessing.

(...) So--

(...)

When you talk about those goals, even if they're flexible, do you remember what some of them have been?

(...)

Some of them were learning goals. I had certain parts of history I wanted to learn.(...) And then when I decided to become a docent, we had--

(...)

but when I was in college, I was a sociology major and a art minor.

(...)

I started out in the arts and sciences and switched to education.(...) Bad move for me. But anyway,

(...)

I had goals of what I wanted to learn about history.(...) I had goals about what I wanted to learn about art.

(...)

I wanted to work better on my Bulgarian,(...) because my mother was so intent on speaking Bulgarian that she would speak Bulgarian to us,(...) but we weren't expected to speak Bulgarian back. She wanted to speak English back. So I worked on-- I couldn't have a conversation, but it isn't as fluid as listening to Bulgarian. It was no different than listening to English.(...) So goals like that, I think.

(...)

And then we had travel goals.

(...)

That's when we got half-tentable travel. It was wonderful.(...) Pack up the kids and hit the parks. Go hiking, hit the mountains.

(...)

OK, something that I didn't understand until the last couple of years, though-- so we grew up camping. We had a lot of friends who grew up camping.(...) That was weird when you were raising kids.

Yes.

(...) It was.

Kelly. Wait, I never thought of this. Oh, wait, Baba, tell Kelly the lengths you had to go to to just take your kids camping for the first time.

(...) Oh, yeah. There were no camping stores in town.

(...)

We joined REI probably 55 years ago. And then LL Bean had two catalogs-- a winter catalog and a summer catalog. So I had to go through REI and LL Bean to get things. So I called up LL Bean. I said, normally, I know I have to send in a check. And this is what I want. And you'll mail it to me. But I can't get this gear in town.

(...)

Can I send it in the mail by check the mail right now and you can mail it to me? They said, oh, sure.

(...)

Wow.

(...)

You could not get camping gear in outdoor activities, especially for a female.

(...)

I had friends that said, well, when you're backpacking, what are you doing? You have to go to the bathroom. Or what do you do if it rains?

(...)

So you've been born and raised in Toledo, Ohio.(...) And then you're like, I want to go--(...) why did you want to go sleep in a tent in the middle of nowhere with your children? Why was that even a thought if no one else was doing it?

(...)

Well, you know, my dad absolutely loved nature and experiences. They had no money.(...) So they would take us places to have experiences. When my dad came here, he ended up being a waiter at Bear Mountain Inn in New York. So when I was in sixth grade, he took us there.(...) Then he took us to New York City.

(...)

And he took us to Washington, DC, because we're Americans. You have to see Washington, DC.(...) We couldn't afford a plane ride. So to go to South Bass Island in Lake Erie from Park Clinton, Ohio, you got on something called the Tin Goose, this tiny little World War II airplane.(...) And you took a 15-minute ride over to the island.

(...)

And the closest mountains were the Smokies. So he took us to the Smokies. He loved nature and outdoors. And he really passed that on.

(...) Where did you stay when Dad is taking you all over in the Tin Goose? Where do you sleep?

(...) At those times, there are lots of ma and pop, very, very cheap places to stay with the bathroom down the hall. And then you always went to the store and had your own food. You did not go out to eat. And so it was very inexpensive to do it that way. And those modes of travel for families are gone now. It's like B&Bs have become this elaborate big breakfast thing now instead of an economical thing like they were before.

(...)

So yeah. So I guess I'm connecting now.

(...)

Papa Barica and Dada were--

(...)

I mean, in business terms, you just call them industry disruptors. Like they-- you know, I just haven't thought about this. The guts that it takes to choose a complete unknown for yourself or a new life for you, something that you know you're going to build on opportunities but you don't even know what they are.

(...)

I mean, that was kind of built into their DNA as soon as they made the choice to come over here, I suppose. So then for Dada to say, well, I'm going to take my kids to the mountains and do all these things, probably societal norms were less constraining to him. I mean, he just saw the thing, did the thing, figured it out.

Oh, absolutely.(...) And he would get maps out, take us all over it he could. And he loved it. And I think that love of travel and nature, he just embedded in me as-- I know my brother has it not quite as badly as I do.

We both have it.

(...) So did Bama Marika ever go with you?

(...) Oh, yeah. She went along.

(...)

Yeah, she definitely went along. Then after we were gone, they did a lot of traveling through AAA.

(...)

And they met some couples there that they became very good friends with. They'd go out west. They went to Hawaii. They did all this other stuff. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, which was really cool. They just finally had the means to do that after my brother and I were gone and still managed to help us, still managed to be grandparents that accepted everyone with no favoritism at all. It was a wonderful thing.

(...)

So all the grandkids loved my mom and dad because they were just totally accepted and no favorites.

(...)

And that's a beautiful thing.

That is a beautiful thing.

Yeah, it really is.

(...)

So when you-- I mean, you've talked a lot about your dad.

(...)

When you think of the word matriarch, just going back to Bama,(...) what feelings does that bring up?

(...)

My mother was a wonderful, loving person.(...) But for years, she wanted to make me into something I was not. And that caused a lot of conflict.(...) It really did.

(...)

She wanted me to be this very proper, very quiet, very-- she wanted me to be exactly what she wanted me to be instead of what I was.

(...)

And that was difficult.

(...)

And even as a very young--(...) by the time I was in high school, I said, if I ever have daughters, I'm not going to do this.

(...)

So I feel sorry that my mom never let go enough

(...)

that she could become my friend as an adult.

(...)

And just relax. Know that I could do things. It's OK. Because I have a blast with my girls and my daughter-in-law, your mom. I have such a good time with them.

(...)

And she never had that opportunity.

(...)

And that makes me a little sad for her.

(...)

Do you remember when you were a kid the first time you realized that there was friction in what she wanted for you and what you wanted? Or maybe the first time you felt really female in a way that, well, Uncle Donald can do--

(...)

can climb this tree. But is there a moment that you recall realizing something like that?

It just always seemed to be there. Once I became cognizant of roles,

(...)

it was an early grade school.(...) Absolutely.

(...)

So I was-- here was this woman who came from a country with no electricity, no indoor plumbing. She comes to the States, didn't know anybody, no language, no anything, except her aunt who had immigrated here. And she has this rebellious daughter. I feel sorry for her.

Yeah, I was going to say, you don't seem to have any bitterness.

(...) No, absolutely not. Because she was a wonderful woman. She did the best she could.

(...)

And she was so wonderful to everybody. She really was. So no, I'm not the least bit bitter at all.

(...)

I still had a wonderful childhood.

(...)

Really did. Loved all the Bulgarian dancing, all the traditions. And I think if I can--

(...)

Tevye, when he sings traditions in Fiddler, when I went to see that, when it first opened them, when Grandpa was training in New York, I thought, oh, this isn't Russian Jewish. This is Eastern European.

(...)

It's all about tradition.

(...)

Which we have now for you.

(...)

And your parents have wonderful traditions. I remember with your mom's tradition of opening up all the Nativity set, the homonin-tivity set. You all would feel it to try to guess which figure it was.

Still do it, if we're around.

(...) Those are wonderful traditions. And everyone looks forward to it.

It's true, Baba. This is going back to the beginning of the conversation, just that you and Grandpa have always been so supportive. But I just need to tell you that I remember we were in Woodstock.(...) And I was probably eight. So I knew enough to know that mom and dad were going through a rough patch in life. I'm not sure if it was relationship-wise or-- I was eight, but I just knew that mom was having a hard time. And we were just driving somewhere. And you were in the front seat. And I just remember you looking at mom and saying, I just want you to know that you are such a phenomenal wife and mother. And I'm so grateful my son found you.

And I just remember

that after all those years, just being like, what?

(...) That's not mom's mom. Why'd she need to say that? That was kind of weird. And now I'm like, oh, that was beautiful.

(...)

(Laughter)

She is.

She's exactly what my son needs. She just is. And she's been a wonderful mother. How can I not love and appreciate that?(...) And I love being around strong women. She is quietly strong. I'm obnoxious in your face, strong. She is quietly strong.

(Laughter)

Ah!

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

Just a different kind of matriarch, right?

(...) (Laughter)

Well, and we're not-- matriarchs try to rule things. We're not matriarchs. We're just--

(...) OK, that's curious. That's why we've been asking about that word. Oh, it's so charged. Because it's a bit of a hot-- yeah, it's kind of a controversial word right now. So it's just interesting to hear the different-- Auntie Katie was like, well, I just picture a buxom blonde opera singer.

(Laughter)

I

guess I picture someone who wants to be controlling.

(...)

And that's not fun.(...) Trying to control anybody just is not fun.

(...)

So maybe this is taking it back to multigenerational wealth. I think I heard the other day, I think it-- we carry the past of seven generations before us. We carry something from seven generations back, be it good or bad, which I could believe. Absolutely. I don't know how you-- Yeah, that's-- Test for that or get data on it.

That's something-- yeah, that's something new I'm just hearing about. Oh, you've heard about this too?(...) Briefly, yeah.

Yeah, I want to dig in. It was also a brief flitting-- I don't remember where I heard it. It was a couple of days ago. So I need to dig in, because I'm like, how do you track that with data? I'm curious. Anyway, it makes a lot of sense, though. I guess my point is when Callie and I think matriarch, if we go back to the women who were active in our lives generationally, we don't really have the controlling or the negative--

(...)

I mean, you and grandma are so different.

So different.

But yeah, it's mostly positives, which is great.

(...) But I don't think we-- That's good. I don't think you or aunties or mom(...) have had a positive reaction to that word.

(...)

No. No one's liked it.

(...)

So this

is a podcast about women for women, right? So when have women-- are there examples you can think of when women have really shown up for you in a particular way?(...) And or do you have a unique superpower that you think you show up for other women in a certain way?

(...)

I think the--

(...)

I went right from high school to the University of Toledo and then went to Germany right away. And the army wives were not working outside of their home.(...) It was hard to win Germany. But they were still strong, wonderful women.(...) And I had a miscarriage at four months. And the rallying of not only the army wives,

(...)

the bachelors that knew us that came to the hospital to see me. So I think strong women love to support.

(...)

And the women who are not very independent are a little bit weak. I think they're the ones who might want to pull down a little bit. I don't really know. But I've at the point in my life that I only want to be around women who are totally accepting of everyone that they see and want to be friends with.(...) And I have friends now that just will call and support and just are wonderful. And I try to do the same thing back. And it's just--(...) even if it's just a phone call or say, I know you're not feeling well. I'm bringing supper over tonight.

(...)

Little things that-- a connection and a physical connection too.

(...)

And that I know when I was at the Frankfurt Hospital after that miscarriage,(...) which was a nasty miscarriage,

(...)

I was-- I didn't know if I'd ever have children again. And I was crying at night. And the nurse came over. And she just brushed my forehead and hair and touched my arm and rubbed it and said,

(...)

you're going to be OK. I have never forgotten that. That healing touch.

(...)

Because that would have been your first, right? That would have been more than-- Yeah.

And so that just--

(...)

just reaching out all the time is just so important.

(...)

And not just--

(...)

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

No, I think just not living your life, but reaching out, helping other people, being there if they need you, and not judging why they need you. And sometimes that's hard.

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah, I feel like it's kind of predominant in our society right now. I was thinking about this at the beginning of our conversation as well. I think this generation, we're very much in our fields. This is the generation, millennials, where everyone has a therapist, which I think is really healthy in a lot of ways. Because we ought to be-- if that's helping you be a better version of yourself, great.

Yeah.

OK, wait.

Except that-- What? I think I'm going to do a virtual therapist next time. I was at the Nutcracker because I had my children's choir was singing in it this weekend. You ran into your therapist, huh? Oh, no. Not just ran into her. We're in the lobby. I'm with all of my students who are about to sing. This cute woman comes up to me. I haven't had therapy in a while.

She goes, hi, can you take my picture?

(...)

And I said, hi.

And then she put it together. And then that was my therapist for a while back.

It's safe. Please think about all my problems while I'm taking your picture.

(...)

OK, sorry.

(...) That's actually one of the good things, though. I think if you need help muddling through some issues and you have a good person, a therapist, no matter who it is, it could be a friend who could be a therapist. Sure. But anyone who could help you muddle through is terrific. Doesn't make you weak. It means, hey, help me here.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's temporary and you sort your things out or maybe it's a long-term-- whoever you are, whatever. I'm just circling it back to we're in our fields. And I think we're also a little more judgmental as a society in a lot of ways. And I want to go back to your comment where you're talking about showing up for women regardless of why they need it, not judging the why, not worrying about why they need the support.

Right.

(...) It's not your business. Your business is to show up. Your business is to be there.

(...) Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes that's hard. Yeah.(...) Yeah.

(...)

It's kind of like your kids when they're adults. You bite your tongue so hard, you're bleeding.

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

The one thing we haven't touched on that has been a constant since Grandpa and I have been parents is our faith.

(...)

That has truly been a large part of the way we raise our family.

(...)

And moving out to the country where we met other people that are strong in faith,

(...)

it was really a huge support system when we said to our children, well,

(...)

I know what so-and-so is doing, but we really don't think that's a good idea. And that to have other people of faith backing up certain behavior and standards and such, it was such a huge, huge support system. It really was.

(...)

And I think having that faith background and even if you met people of other faith, it's OK. It's just that if you have a common ground there to help each other out, it's really been really essential for us.

Grandpa was raised Catholic.

(...)

You were raised Bulgarian Orthodox.

(...)

Except we didn't have a priest till I was in junior high.

(...)

And my mom said,

(...)

you will go to church. Four doors down was a congregational church.

(...)

So we all would go to the congregational church. And I loved Sunday school. It was all about Bible study.(...) And I loved it. So by the time we got to-- I was in junior high, and we had a Bulgarian priest there all the time.

(...)

It was hard to go from open Bible study and thinking to this very, very strict formula for religion.

(...)

So I can still sing the funeral service, all that good stuff.

(...)

And I still love some of the traditions.

(...)

So I'm a mixture of congregational Bible study, Bulgarian Orthodox, and Catholic.(...) It's all there.

When did you choose Catholicism, though? That's my first question. Second follow up, it's striking me as really interesting that you go from enjoying the seemingly more philosophical Bible study with the congregational church to saying, wow, the rigidity of this Orthodox practice is difficult for me to-- oh, you know what? I'm actually going to go with one of the more formulaic Christian traditions in existence. I'm going to choose that one. It's a really interesting progression.

(...)

Well, there was something missing in the congregational church for me. And I had a lot of Catholic friends in high school. And I started going to Mass with some of them.

(...)

And it just resonated with me. It really did. I think it-- So

this was before grandpa.

Yes. We were barely dating. I don't think you can change a religion. I couldn't have changed a religion for someone.(...) It had to be something I wanted to do.

(...)

So yeah, it was just-- the congregational church was really good. It was very community oriented.(...) But I needed something more. And I loved the spirituality in the Catholic Mass.(...) I love the reverence in the Catholic Mass.

(...)

That's still something I miss today, because it's really not there too much.

(...) But you're also the first to be like, this is a groovy song. We are dancing in the pew. Yes.

(...)

Yes. When you're doing gospel, you've got to act like it's gospel music.

(...)

I'm an anomaly. What can I say? You are.

(...)

There just isn't a strict code. There just is not. Yeah.

(...)

Which I want to go back to-- there are so many things floating around my brain. So let me just maybe outline them, and we can choose one to focus on. I'm thinking about Bama Barica and Dada. She's a mail order bride who comes here when she's 18, speaking English.

No, she's 21. 21.

Oh, 21.

OK. 22, 22, I think.

OK, so 22 to marry a man 20-some years her senior.

(...)

17.

(...)

OK, so my numbers are all off. That's still a lot. That's close. I mean, someone she's never met, she's taking this risk. And then they have this marriage where they do something so beautifully, like no favorite grandchildren. They're just remembered as these loving, supportive people.

(...)

But I know you've said to me, well, they had a different marriage than many do. It was an arranged marriage, essentially.

(...)

So that's part of your experience. And then you choose grandpa,(...) Uncle Donald's best friend at the time, and both of you are chiefs. I mean, both of you are very strong-willed, stubborn, opinionated, have a thirst for life, a curiosity.(...) I mean, it's very much--

(...)

I have strong feelings about this being the right thing or this being the move.

(...)

And then you marry this man, and then you move to Germany immediately for a year where you're cut off from your family and friends, which you've said is a gift, which I believe.

(...)

And then somehow, I'm just kind of contextualizing the beginning, because in 2024 as your adult granddaughter, I'm watching you and grandpa be best friends.

(...)

I mean, you're like an empire builder, right? You've got five kids, a ton of grandchildren, great-grandchildren, cousins who really enjoy spending time together.

(...)

I mean, you did well in your careers. Baba, you may not have had a traditional professional career, but you've been on so many board organizations, docent for years.

(...)

How did you go about laying that foundation,

(...)

I suppose, in the beginning, in that year in Germany?

(...)

Wow.

(...)

I don't think we thought about it in Germany, actually.(...) We married so young, we grew up together.(...) And I think I mentioned you girls before. The only reason this happened is because I knew grandpa was going to be gone totally for two years.

(...)

And there would be no connection. Couldn't afford a phone call. This is pre all this communication explosion.

(...)

And did I really want to have him out of my life for two years?

(...)

So when he proposed, the answer was very easy.

(...)

The answer was, no, I'm not going to go two years without him.

(...)

And fortunately, he didn't want to go without me for two years.

Yeah, had you talked about it? Did you know he was going to propose?

(...)

I wasn't quite sure.

(...)

The first time he proposed was over the phone. Well, he was at boot camp. And I thought, oh, I've got to think about this.

(...)

(Laughter)

Funny. When

he called a week later, I said I would. And he came home. And he was home for a week before he went to Germany.

(...)

He talked to my dad and said, I'd like permission to marry your daughter.

(...)

My dad said,(...) I'll think about it.

(...)

He died. He died still thinking about it.

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

And we were alive when he died. I just want to throw that out there.

(...) He died semi-recently in the grand scheme of things. I remember that funeral.

I remember him.

(...) Yeah, he died in 1998.

(...)

And he was born in 1899.

(...)

Wow.

Yeah.

(...) Yeah.

So I just feel like I've had--

(...)

like I said, we plan things. But I work best under a flexible system and not real rigid.

(...)

But society also unintentionally--(...) or maybe intentionally--

(...)

you absorb some of the traditions and things of society too, whether you want to or not.

(...)

And then you either accept or reject some of them.

(...)

Certainly, the role of women has changed dramatically.(...) A lot of it's good.

(...)

But I think some of it is not so good. I think the role of being a mother has been highly diminished.

(...)

And I think the idea that if someone stays home and chooses to stay home, if they can absolutely afford it,

(...)

that somehow she is not intellectually challenged or growing as a person. And I think that's absolutely wrong.(...) And we really do.

Are there other areas-- you just said you think the role of mother is diminished. Are there other areas of motherhood that you think have been diminished besides the intellect or the personal growth if you choose to stay at home?

(...)

I think the idea of a mother choosing to go back to a full-time career at two months and putting a tiny baby in daycare every day, all day faddens me.

(...)

Because that baby need-- the mother is the one who gives birth. They need a mother and a father. But as a newborn,(...) the baby needs to feel that mother that needs to be held.

(...)

And in daycare, who's going to walk around holding a baby for six hours if they want to be held?

(...)

And I think that's rather sad.

(...)

I think sometimes--

(...)

I think society is giving you an impression that you can have a full-blown career, a full-blown marriage, and a newborn baby all at the same time and nothing has to give.

(...)

I thought that.

(...) Yeah, I was going to say, I don't even think it's that you can have it. I almost think society says that you should have that.

Yes, Kelly, you are absolutely right. And I don't think only a Wonder Woman can do all that.

(...)

And it's impossible. And women are the ones who give birth.

I tried. I tried for two years to do that. And I had a lot of help from Kevin's mom.

(...)

And I tried. And it was hard. It's tough.

(...)

Well, and do you-- It's tough.

(...)

I had seven years of marriage with Kyle, where I felt like we just had it made. And we did. We were so lucky. But we really just had to pour into each other and pour into ourselves. So what were we interested in, which part of our community should be showing up for as a couple or individually?

(...)

So we're married. We can do whatever we can pour into in our careers that we could pour into.

(...)

And seeing a lot of women around me who added a career to that-- or sorry, added a baby to that. And I do think having-- being in this experience is a myth that you can have all three all at once. I think there's trade-off. And there can be different seasons.

(...)

Absolutely. And I think once you have a child,

(...)

that child has to have a high priority. Because kids take--(...) it's a job.

(...)

It's still a job. You girls know now the incredible amount of time, energy,(...) and emotion physically and mentally it takes.

(...)

It really does.

I guess-- let me back up one second, though. I guess I said it's a myth. And there are women around me who are attaining all three all at once. And I truly believe they are.

(...)

So I guess I want to reframe what I just said to put it in my own perspective, which is I couldn't keep my relationship to myself well while working full time pouring into my marriage, pouring into my baby.

(...)

I don't think many people can. And maybe those who do can afford an incredible nanny like Sandy.(...) Right.

(...)

Really?(...) Or a relative who steps in.

(...) And that was part of the only reason I could, is that Kevin's mom did three days a week. Yes, and that was a big deal. Two days a week. But yeah, I know some very wealthy moms that can have an amazing nanny, and they're in the same house as their child, and they can still-- that's probably a different situation. But I did find in my two years that on paper I could make it all work.

(...)

But yeah, emotionally, I mean, I was a robot, I think. Yeah. At a certain point. Yeah.

(...) I love that there's a time and season for everything.(...) And sometimes something has to take the back burner.(...) And it's OK.

(...)

I wonder, Callie, if you just did an experiment

(...)

and clocked all of the hours that you actually worked throughout the week, I wonder if you would get close to 40 with all of your different-- Right now? Yeah, all your different part types. And the only reason I'm bringing this up is because I think in the last year you've felt really empowered to take(...) what is interesting and good for you and fit it into your life where it can fit.

(...)

So I wonder if part of the conversation is how do we just finagle everything into its own little spot if we want to hold all of these things all at once and maybe a traditional nine to five is kind of difficult.

(...)

I'm just curious. I don't know

how much you're working out for moms. I'm just going to say that in front of my baba.

(...)

You said something important, and these are where she can fit it. And if Callie has the flexibility

(...)

to fit it where it's good for her and Kevin and the children, that's a big deal. I mean, I was leaving-- That's a huge deal.

I was a little late to this podcast because I was in this meeting with this woman that is just adding a lot of richness to my life because she's hired me to do a job that is not a ton of time but that I can do really well.(...) And we just had this lunch date to try to brainstorm for the next semester. And I just left it feeling so blessed because she is a mom and she knows that I'm a mom and she wants me in all my mom glory.(...) And that's just-- that's all my employers right now just understand that. And it's just so different. And I still have Kevin's mom helping with child care. So it's such an incredibly different experience than working for a public school. So yeah, Emily, you're right. I probably do work a ton of hours right now, but it's where I can fit it. And it's still more than maybe I want by a little bit, but it's so different. I do feel-- I mean, look at my blazer. Feeling very empowered today.

(...)

You do look official.

(...)

It's cotton. It's like a sweater material. I'd like to clarify.

No structure here.

(...)

Wait, let's-- OK, Baba. Yes. I feel like there's so many pieces of you that kind of surface over the years.

(...)

Auntie Katie was talking about you being a warrior a while ago. And she had a memory as a child of you knocking on doors just to make sure people were aware of some political or initiative.(...) Anyway, I just want to bring it back to your advocating for moms being available to their children, which you were five kids, but you also have done so many things outside your home.

(...)

How do I start?

(...)

She is talking about when Grandpa-- we moved back to Toledo. Your dad was just turned four. Auntie Katie just turned two. And then we had Auntie Megan.

(...)

But he was working crazy, crazy hours. So when he first moved back, I did teach full time for one year. I really did not like someone else a stranger with the kids all the time. And we both made the decision that I was going to quit and stay home with the kids.

(...)

And our life, we were going to be extremely frugal, because we just thought it was best.(...) But then at one point, it was called the Environmental Clearinghouse.

(...)

And this is when the Clean Water Act was passed, the Clean Air Act was being passed. The word ecology was brand new on people's lips.(...) The idea of recycling was brand new on people's lips. So I did go--(...) there was something that they wanted to enhance with the Clean Water Act. So I went around the neighborhood with a petition.

(...)

I also went around with my little red wagon collecting newspaper(...) to take to a recycling center.

(...)

And there was only one in town. So it was all piled in our garage.

(...)

There was a 4th of July storm to end all 4th of July storms.

(...)

And the storm sewers backed up. And our garage was on the lower level.

(...)

So not only did the family room get wet,

(...)

picture piles of wet, soggy newspaper.

(...)

And that's when Grandpa said,(...) I really don't want you collecting newspaper anymore.

(...)

Did he say it just like that in dulcet tones?

(...) Oh, absolutely.

(...)

Oh.(...) So how did you prioritize getting out of the house and doing things for yourself? Because you have such a strong sense of self in your own identity. I recognize I met you when you were in your 50s. But how did you grow that and maintain that while having five kids while helping Grandpa with a super demanding career?

(...)

Well, it was easier because there were more mothers who were staying home. We exchanged children.

(...)

It's someone wanted to-- It's that village.

We're learning. OK, keep going.(...) Yeah.

It's someone--(...) like when I finally-- when I decided that I always loved art and history, OK.(...) When I found out you had a year's training of history as a docent,(...) and then more training every month,(...) every month you had two hours of fantastic classes. I had to go to the museum three times a week for training for a year.(...) And I exchanged with another mom who wanted to do something. So I watched her kids.(...) And then she watched my kids when we were doing it. And so you didn't have to pay for a babysitter. You could still get outside of the house and outside of the role of being a mother and a wife and do something worthwhile.

(...)

But it was much easier then because there were mothers choosing to do-- more mothers choosing to do the same thing.

(...)

Do you recall how you made that agreement with that mother? Do you recall how you found her?

(...)

Mothers would get together.

(...)

There were things-- mothers would have coffees.

(...)

Every few months, a mother would call a bunch of friends and say, come on over with the kids. I'm having a coffee. You would talk about child-rearing problems if someone was sick. Well, what did you do when they had a crooping cough or what you did? There was this network of support within the motherhood community(...) that probably isn't there too much anymore.(...) I don't know. I don't know if you girls have found it or not. But it was there when I had children. And that made a big difference.

(...)

Kel's working on hers. I need to put forth a little effort.

(...)

Yeah,(...) I'm just finding my tribe in my village. And it's funny, right before this, I text coming in over my AirPods because one of my good friends and I are becoming friends with this other mom. And we have this group chat. And my one friend Emily said, hey, I'll just come over. I'm going to stop by, but I'll just help you make dinner. And this other mom we're becoming friends with was like, wait, help me make dinner for my family? And I'm like, yeah, I'm learning what we got to do to hang out right now.(...) But that's new. And it's so fun to be finding that. But I will say I'm the only working mom for the most part in my friend group, which they're being really supportive and amazing. But if we were all working, it would be really hard because they're often the initiators.

(...)

So yeah.

(...)

But it's nice to have that support from other moms and women. It just is.

(...)

And I'm glad you're finding some of that.

(...)

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

(...)

And when Uncle Sean was in school full time, I thought, hmm,

(...)

I'd go back to work. There was a job that opened up at the museum as the volunteer coordinator.

(...)

And I really enjoyed that. They did it for several years.(...) And it was fun. It was a lot of work, but it was fun because I was still doing tours.(...) But we had a huge Rubens exhibit.(...) And I had to recruit and train and place volunteers.(...) So it was crazy hours for a while. But it was challenging and stimulating and fun and exciting.

(...)

And I was glad I could do that.

Did you plan the international tours too?

(...) I planned several for the docents. Yes, we went to Paris first.(...) We went to Spain.

(...)

And then I used a tour agency for Egypt and Italy.

(...)

But the other two I planned. And it was fun.

(...) So yeah, how about that goal? What? That travel goal, you really

animated it. Mom doesn't say it killed. She says you animated it.

(...)

It's so funny because you and Emily both use that goal word a lot.

I'm sitting here just thinking, did Emily

learn that from-- Emily, did you learn that from Baba? I don't think so.

No, I only heard about Baba having personal goals when we were--

(...)

a couple of weekends ago when we were visiting. And you said that you made goals, loose goals. Yeah. And Callie, you brought up goals recently too. And being like, well, how do you--

(...) Just asking because I don't think of that word. I guess I have the structure of how I hope that life will happen or how do I tackle this next thing. But I'm not a good dream or goal setter like that. And I think you two really are. So literally in this computer, I'm sitting in the middle of you two.

(Laughter)

All right, goals. I'm going to take it all in.

Well, I think in a previous episode, we established that I'm a little bit more needy than you. So I think I just see a thing. I get thirsty. I say, I want that. How do I get it? Let's talk about it.

(...)

Hey, Kyle, I want this thing. Oh, you want that thing too? Great. Or, oh, you want a different thing? Sick. Or, oh, you don't want that at all. Well, this is a good conversation.

(...)

It's not like, oh, such a fool's. It's just like, are we aligned to putting our energies towards this thing?(...) And just for a little self-validation, Baba, you set a goal to travel. How many countries have you and Grandpa visited together at this point?

(...) Over 30,

I think. Wow. I think you're-- I think you did that one. I think you could cross that one.

And recent.

(...)

Well, the last one--

(...)

what was the last one? Was it Vienna? We went to Scotland. We spent three weeks in Scotland.(...) Loved Scotland. Really did.

(...)

Can't believe. Unfortunately, we both like to travel.

(...)

I don't want to do it in a tent anymore at all.(...) And that's OK.

(...) Wait, Baba, real question.

(...)

I read a lot of romance novels when I'm postpartum. A lot of them have very sexy Scottish highlanders.(...) Is the vibe there?

(...)

They do look really cute and kilt. They really do.

Perfect up there.

(...)

They actually look manly and kilt. I don't get it, but they do.

(...)

So are there ever goals that you and Grandpa don't align on, where one of you says, I'd like this, and the other one says, absolutely, that sounds like the worst thing I could think of?

Only minor things. We've been very fortunate that when it comes to children or it comes to travel,

(...)

the important things were there. And we had the same type of ideas. And that was really helpful.

(...)

And it's just,(...) even when it comes to how we want the house to look, we have the same-- we want it to be comfortable and open and airy. And he feels this end color. I have to have color.

(...)

(Laughs)

Smart, only thing. Yes, exactly.

So yeah. Do you remember any big negotiations you guys had in the beginning? Think back to Germany years. Were there any big things where you had to sit down and say, all right, we are not-- we are not aligned.

(...)

Let's do some work here.

(...)

It was probably after we came back, because Grandpa was gone about half the time defending the border between East and West Germany.

(...)

And I didn't know where he was half the time. I'd go off and teach in the next village. And I had good German friends I'd spend the weekends with.(...) So we really didn't have time to--(...) but when I had that very awful miscarriage,

(...)

he was just there for me.

(...)

And it was the most wonderful thing to have that

(...)

and to know he would be there no matter what.

(...)

And that's a big thing, to know your partner is there and will always be there for you.(...) That is just a very big deal. And I think the best thing you can give children is a happy marriage, a good, strong marriage with love and respect.

(...)

That is the very best gift for children.

(...)

Mom has said that she-- dad had to teach her to put their marriage ahead of our needs, the kids' needs.

(...)

Was that something you and grandpa learned together or intentionally did? Or did it just work out that way?

(...) We just always felt that we had to have some time alone together,(...) even if it was just walking in the park.

(...)

We needed to have time as a couple to really have a marriage and have children.

(...)

And I'm glad we did because we've always had fun together.(...) And like you said, we're too cheese and we're too strong--

(...)

Oh, hold on. Wait, OK. Oh, there you are. Sorry, repeat that. Can you say that again? I just turned her off.

(...)

Oh, fancy me. You get out of here, man.

There are times when we argued and got into differences because we're too strong-minded people. And I--

(...)

Uh-oh.

(...)

Oh, we lost you. Hold on. That was Auntie Katie. Is everything OK?

(...)

That was Auntie Katie.(...) Here, I'm going to text them quick.

(...)

Baba's recording is a numbers busy. Baba's busy.

(...)

That's just an example. I know you girls have the same relationship with your mom. It's so much fun just to have--(...) be friends and let go of the reins and assume your kids are going to do a good job.

(...)

That's just a good feeling. It really is.

Yeah, it's lucky. I hope for that feeling. It's the goal. That's the goal.

You'll have it. I have no doubt in my mind your kids will do it. And you have two husbands who are wonderful for you. And that's a big deal.(...) It just is. They're pretty great. The marriage is important.

(...)

So when do you feel beautiful or valued as a woman?

(...)

When do I feel beautiful or valued as a woman?

(...)

Goodness.

(...)

I don't know. That seems to be a hard one to answer. Well,

(...)

I will tell you a funny story that's in conjunction with that.

(...)

When Grandpa was managing his office, we had a lot of obligatory things we had to do because his office was representing whatever. A lot of them were black tie events. And I would get all dressed up. And I'd come down.

(...)

And Grandpa would say, oh, you look nice.

(...)

Finally, your Uncle Sean, who might have been 15 or 16 at a time, would say, oh, you look nice. He said, dad,(...) that doesn't work. He just verbally gave your dad, your grandpa, a list of adjectives. None of them were nice.

(...)

That's incredible. He is

something else, Uncle Sean. Oh, yeah. Charmer.

(...)

I've always felt good about being a woman.

(...)

And I think I've seen so many social changes going on. And when you think American women haven't even had the right to vote for 100 years,

(...)

things keep changing. But I love that I was a woman who could produce life.

(...)

That, to me, is a miracle and wonderful.

(...)

And if I take care of myself-- unfortunately, I love to exercise.

(...)

If I take care of myself and I feel good about myself,(...) I feel good about myself as a woman and how I look.

(...)

But you've got to take that time to take care of your body, too.

(...)

That it all-- So

internal validation.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah. I just-- I like that. Yeah, I just know I have a good life.

(...)

I just do.

(...)

So I feel good. I was going through pictures the other-- well, I was going through some old ones that Grandma just sent. And there was a picture of me as a baby being baptized with mom and dad who look like children.(...) And I was looking at my grandparents. It's mom and dad and all three of my grandparents.(...) And I-- blood grandparents. And I was just looking at you and Grandpa. And I was-- I looked at you and I was like, she looks like how old my friends look right now.

(Laughter)

That quite--

(...)

Well,

Emily has older friends than you are.

(...)

How old were you when I was born?

(...)

In my 50s.

(...) Oh, I don't know. You and Grandpa were dressed. And I was just like--

(...)

they're not old enough. Who would those people be grandparents?

(...)

(Laughter)

You know, I do think that being raised at Bulgarian community have a different picture, vision of age because people did not die till they were in their 90s.

(...)

So to me, age is how you think.

(...)

Yeah. I think some people start acting old when they're 50. So by the time they're 80, they really have a down pat.

(...)

Do you mean people didn't die in their 90s on the east side of Toledo?

No, Bulgarians. Pardon?

(...) Or are you talking about in Bulgaria?

(...)

The Bulgarians who immigrated to the states that were in the Bulgarian community died in their 90s.

Wow.

So my vision and feeling about age was very different than the typical Americans(...) picture of what age is like. And my dad was one of the oldest grandparents.

(...)

But he's the one who went ice skating with us. He's the one who went sledding.

(...)

So it's all what you make about age.

(...)

Good point. So what's really, really funny is when your mom and dad got married--

(...)

I'm sorry, when you got married, and I met your in-laws,(...) I'm thinking, oh, they're our contemporaries.

(...)

Same thing with Callie's.

And I thought, wait a minute. No, no. They're not our contemporaries. I could be their parent.

(...)

But you feel like a contemporary. You don't feel like this older person.

(...)

That's funny.

That is really funny. It is very funny.

Oh my gosh.

(...)

I love it. Well, Dadu was almost 100 when he died.

Yeah.

I mean, I was six when he passed away. I remember his energy more than anything else.

Oh, yeah.

(...)

He was-- in fact,

(...)

Max lives with us now. I was telling her that when Dad was in his mid-70s, he would show off to my kids how we could do push-ups. He'd go in the family, and in between each push-up, he would clap his hands.

In his 70s. Yes.

(...)

Yeah.

Wow. I mean, you do have a picture of him in your house. He's in a tank leaning up against a car. He's got some guns. So if you've got print evidence of that, you're going to want to try and maintain that physique. I mean, he was a beautiful man.

(...)

My great grandfather.

(...) He was. Oh, he was. He was very--

(...)

there's a Bulgarian word where you really want to get yourself all dressed up and spend a lot of time on how you look. It's called kutti-kutti.

(...)

What is it? Kutti-kutti. Kutti-kutti-kutti. How I never heard this from you before. I didn't teach Kyle this word. Yeah.

He's over there just doing her kutti-kutti.

(...)

Isn't that a good word? It's so good.

(...)

So my dad loved-- he'd like to always look good and eat and pressed and clean and all that stuff. Even working at the ore docks, it was just very cute. Very funny.

(...)

Wow. Yeah. Emily, I'm going to ask our closing question soon. So do you have any-- I'm the one that edits, Baba. So I'm learning to try to keep things efficient for my sanity.

(...)

That's a good job. Yes.

(...)

It is. It is. Hence why I'm warning Emily. If there's anything else that she wants to get in, this is your time.

You know what? I think that I'd like to ask for a follow-up interview where we just dive into Baba's relationship with Bulgaria(...) and try to love that and food and tradition.

(...)

So maybe I'll save it. And Baba, can we invite you back prematurely to talk about those things? Oh, sure.

Because I loved it. I really did. And Auntie Katie was in a dance group. And I made costumes for Auntie Ligon and Auntie Lisa, which I still have.

(...)

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

A Bulgarian dance group? So for our listeners, whenever an O'Leary girl gets married,(...) still in our generation, there is Bulgarian dancing at the wedding.

(...)

And the music is just wild and wonderful. Really is. You cannot sit still when you hear the music.

(...)

That's true.(...) So without television, when there were all these name day gatherings were a big deal,(...) people would get together and they would sing and they would dance and they would tell stories.(...) And we would ask grandmother to tell stories about Stadakly, the old country. And she would tell what things were like when she was growing up.

Wow. Because was she one of-- well, I guess we'll get into it. But was she one of the more recent immigrants?

(...) Yes, because things shut down. She came in 1937.

Right.

OK. Then after that, you couldn't get out of Bulgaria.

(...)

And even getting in Bulgaria after that was difficult.

(...)

So yeah, she was very fortunate. She was one of the last ones.

(...)

Spoiler for our next episode with Baba, which is going to happen, Callie, I learned this. Grandpa had top secret clearance when he was in the army in Germany because he was a commander of--

(...) How it's her group.

(...)

So he was involved with nukes. He was in protecting the border, which I just learned. So anyways, the first time that Baba went to Bulgaria, he was told by his superiors to try and dissuade her based on top secret information. So we're going to just let that dangle right there.

(...)

Before we go into our next episode of Baba, where we talk about-- I want to know about that first visit, how communism kind of affected Bulgaria, what you saw when you visited next, and all of the traditions that you maintained with your family in America.

And I could finally meet my own Baba, which my youngest cousin said, I am like her.

(...)

Oh my gosh. That is so cool. Yeah, it really

is.

(...)

But I am just so proud of you girls for being doing this.

(...)

This is a way of reaching out to other moms.

(...) It is. And we just realized we just have so much generational wealth that-- I mean, we're just blessed to have you and our aunties and our other grandma. I mean, we just have so many women to learn from. It's just the best.

It is. And strong women are just wonderful to be around. They just are.

(...)

A lot of Yup'er women are like that too.

(...)

Another side of the family we can dive into.

I hope we did not tie with the Finn.(...) OK,

(...)

so Baba, what is a trait about yourself that is aging like fine wine? Ah!

(...)

That is aging like fine wine. Golly.

(...)

I guess I'm learning to keep my mouth shut a little bit more.

(...)

That I can just sit back and listen a little bit more, especially when--

(...)

a lot of these social issues that come up and such and some of the political things. Sometimes it's better just to act down a little bit, which is really hard for me to do. Sometimes it's better.

(...)

I have J.D. Vance's book on my nightstand, Baba. I'm about to start it because we talked about it.

I'm curious.

Have you read it?

I read it when it first came out, way before he ever got into politics.

(...)

And yeah, it's a pretty amazing story. It really is.

(...)

We were talking about it last time I was visiting, which is why I brought it up. Got it?

Yeah.

(...)

But we do. We have all of this extended family to wrap around, which is just a gift that I wish everyone had.

(...)

So wonderful.

I've had so many comments of acquaintances or good friends that have listened and said, wow, I just-- I can't believe how close you are and just how much familial loyalty there is. Yeah, it's amazing.

Oh, and you kids staying there after Thanksgiving was the best present I ever could have had. It was so fun. Well, we had all you girls together in one spot.

(...)

And it was just so much fun.(...) It was just great. It was.

Yeah.

It was. And I just had a fun memory today because I just walked the last of the fingerprints off the sliding door.

(...)

(Laughter)

Not ours. I want to be clear.

I'm a little-- Your children. We have learned.

(...)

Truth.(...) I have learned that at home and at camp when little kids are around, you just wait till they go, and then you just clean them off.

(...)

(Laughter)

You too, man.

(...)

Oh, we missed that. Sorry, you're back. OK.

(...)

Oh, man.

I hope we better let you go. Oh, yeah.

I guess we'll go then.(...) We love you. Thank you, Bobby.

We love you, too. You were those wonderful girls. It really was.

Keep up the good work.

(...)

Thanks. Goodbye, my dimes. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye, Baba.