Episode 17: The One for Dads Who Go First with Kevin Ruhl

In this real and funny episode of The Real Mom Hub, Kevin, Cally’s husband, gets candid about the nitty-gritty challenges and changes of parenthood. From likening newborns to squishy fruit to declaring potty training as one of his proudest achievements, Kevin’s perspective is equal parts hilarious and heartfelt. He opens up about being a younger dad, the loneliness of being the first in his friend group to become a father, and the immense joys that fatherhood brings. This episode is a must-listen for anyone who’s navigated the uncharted waters of parenting.

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

that's so true.

you have another,

like a squishy fruit that you really have to keep with

you, but then like, make sure they stay warm.

(...)

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Kevin. Could you could you repeat that please?

AVR always be recording.

I know.

Successful podcast 101.

(...)

So just create content all the time.

Yeah.

(...)

It is sort of like that living with Kevin role, gonna be honest.

(...)

I mean, yeah, I believe it.(...) Genius.

Yeah, genius comes and goes.

So what do you do with the bad fish?

don't use it, you just get rid of it.

And who gets rid of it?

Callie.

(...)

Yeah, in this case that's correct.

She edits.

Our life too, is this like a big metaphor for our life? That's what I was wondering a little bit.

Anyways, hey, hi. Hi, hello.

Hi, everybody.(...) Hi, Kev. Hello.

(...)

Kevin P. Rule.(...)

Hey, everybody. I'm Kelly's husband, Kevin.

Okay, this is funny because my adjectives were gonna be

my kind,

(...)

Yeah. Yep. And my third adjective was creative husband, Kevin, but now I might not look good for you after that.

How about that? I mean, those are top of mind for me too to describe Kevin Rule, for sure. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would also add that he's daddy to Charlie and Nora. Like he gifted both sides... like Charlie's the first grandkid on both sides, so...

(...)

What can I say?

Phenomenal dad also.

Put a lot of time and effort into that one.

Yeah. Is it time and effort that you love to remember fondly? Look back on and say...

Did you make time and effort in his conception or his upbringing for the last three and a half years?

(...)

Yes.

Oh, I was... I was on the conception. Oh, okay.

Mainly the first one. Yeah, the conception.

Yeah, I think we were all talking about the conception, Kel.

I worked really hard.

(...)

How about that? Okay,

(...)

you know what? To just lead things off,

think we've gotten a very roundabout introduction for you. I'm pleased with it.

(...) We'll dig in a little deeper. Good luck editing that, Kel.

(...)

We'll dig in a little deeper as the episode goes on, but I'm gonna take a...

For those that care to... Sorry to cut you off, Emily, but for those that care to know who are just out there listening,

A couple extra descriptors of Kevin

were missed, but could be said.

Sexy, tall,(...) suave.

think that was a few.

You can keep going.

(...)

I was hoping that was gonna kickstart some more from you guys, but...

(...)

All right, Kevin.

I believe it was geek chic. You had a geek chic summer. It was actually the summer before you got married. You were in your geek chic era, if I recall.

I was, yeah.

Yeah. There's some self-discovery there, some celebration of the geek chic.

I still don't know really what it means, but I went for it. I thought

character Chuck on NBC, that's geek chic.

When I hear geek chic, which actually the only time I've ever heard that was when you said it, but anytime I hear it in the future, you will be the poster man for geek chic.

I prefer poster child, but

just me.

(...) All right, so we're here to talk about patrescents. I'm gonna bring us back. We're talking about patrescents, which that is essentially outlining this identity shift that you go through, this huge change in your life as a human when you become a father.

So when you became a dad,

(...)

I want to know what shook you to your core.

Whoa, right out of the gate.

(...)

I wrote down some sorry for the listeners. That was my paper.

Thank you. Try not to do that. All right, keep going. You're doing great.

I'm sorry. What?

(...)

You gotta stop managing your husband. He's going through some creative genius.

I might mute myself. All right, you go.

Leaving the house.

You become a parent and leaving the house is never the same.

That's a really, that's so true.

(...)

you have another, you have like

it's like a squishy fruit that you really have to keep with you, but then like, make sure they stay warm.

(...)

There was often,

for the people that haven't had like, I think about for myself

I became a dad,

how would I have heard advice that made sense to like my actions that need to be

my actions? I have to say like squishy fruit honestly embodies like you can't let the juice run out.

(...)

I'm actually really vibing with this. Yeah.

You get what I'm saying though? Like there's so much tenderness that you have to have totally urgency to protect the amount of cloths that go around the baby's head. Al and I didn't have a neck support system in our car seat. So we rolled up a towel every time we left our house.

We had a very legal car seat, but we didn't have the newborn insert that like keeps their head from going like that. Oh yeah, I can picture it.

Yeah, we had the legal car seat from the side of the road.

(...)

Okay.

(...)

Yeah, I do remember that. Yep.(...) For folks who don't know, they did find their first sports car seat on the side of the road.

It was the house we moved into.(...) They were finished with their car seat. We like sort of knew the family. It's like kind of almost as ratchet as it sounds, but only almost.

(...) I prefer to tell the story for all people to know that we picked up our first car seat off the side of the road.(...) Okay. Granted, it was the house we moved into. It was on the road though. We picked it up right after the people put it outside, but we were like, hey, this is going to be useful. I mean, we were two teachers that did not have, we weren't in a position to

pay for all of the bills that come with the baby. Okay.

(...) Car seats are so expensive. Really expensive. It's a lot of plastic for

$300 per seat.

Then you expand to two cars and then you get your grandparents involved in childcare and now you're paying for three car seats for one kid for ease of access. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, definitely when

on.

I'm really vibing with you on the squishy fruit. I'm genuinely, I'm picturing specifically peaches in late July, early August.

They smell so good.

Oh, they smell so good. And it's just like you touch them and they're not the same after you touch them. They're so

Anyways, we can move on. We're going to circle back. I want some more things that really shook you, although really liked the leaving the house, but I forgot about that. I genuinely forgotten like what it feels like to just leave the house as your own human. I can't even picture that anymore. So thank you for bringing that up.

It's heaven on earth really just leaving for yourself.

Leaving for yourself.

Just walking right out the door, not worrying about the door closing on something or someone behind you.

Totally.

I am going to come back to this, this shook because I want some more. I feel like that was a taste. We're going to go deeper, but I just, I want to paint a little context because you're quite precocious Kevin rule.

You got married when you were 24.(...) You had Charlie when you were also 24.

Yeah.

I mean you were,

I was still 24 Cal. You were the cougar of the house.

I was thinking about my three months.

(...)

Yeah. Yeah. So you had an unexpected pregnancy, like two months into your marriage. One, one. Great. Oh yeah. There's almost almost a honeymoon baby. Anyways,(...) some, some statistics for you. As of 2022, the median age, age for men entering their first marriage in America is 30 years.

And then fatherhood, first time fatherhood that comes at age 27. So if we talk about, if we're just talking about both of those items, you're way ahead of your time. And I, as far as I know from your friends, very much doing life differently than your whole peer group.

Yep.

And family members.

Yep.

How's that been for you?

I

say like in a sense, it was pretty isolating.

I just like jump into it. It

nobody to bounce ideas off of nobody that was close to me that felt

I could

be able to share my frustration or like my needs,

peer to peer and have them actually understand what it is I'm talking about.

way to alleviate and process that situation

(...)

was probably just left up more to jokes and not really allowing myself to identify like I'm

this is tough. I don't really know what I'm doing and I don't

I don't know. In some capacity, it was a, I don't feel

I have the capacity to go to the resources that I like. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff out there in terms of like how to be a good dad, but

it's just, it's so new and so different. And then it did like, yeah, isolating. There's just not a lot or any people in my life that went through it the same time I did. And Cal and I had to talk about that like right out of the gate of like, we're going to be the first. And in some fashion,

we were frustrated about it. We're like, ah,

this is going to be tough in some ways. But then

I know I had to say out loud for myself, like I can't get bitter about that idea or that concept because A it was our, like our actions created the opportunity.

(...)

But then B it's

our friends are going to have kids and they're going to be at that place and potentially feeling similarly to how I'm feeling. And then it's like, I can be that resource because I've gone through it or I can offer support.

do you think you would have reached out and talked about like dad things? Had there been someone in your shoes?

I think if they were close enough,

(...)

so I'm thinking like, like the close college roommates,

(...)

the like primarily the first person that comes into mind is like, if Gabe side by side was experiencing fatherhood same time

probably would have been on the phone

once a week with him

was also like a sense in my head running through of all of our friends are 24,(...) some younger, some slightly older, like,

most of them were in a dual income, no kid situation of like, we're going through life together. We're seeing them post on social media about all these extravagant trips that people seem to be able to afford and go on. And Cal and I are sitting back buying our first house.

but like nobody else was doing that. Nobody else was like nesting. Nobody else was trying to extend their roots. It's like everybody's trying to launch their career pouring into that, but then also like living life outside of it, going to bars.

And there's just, I would say outside of kids, like there's other situations where like we move back to my hometown against Kelly's wishes. Thanks Cal.

(...)

That also like we didn't have that, that like intentional base of people around us. It was, it kind of felt like it was us

it was all right around COVID and all that fun jazz. So

many different layers, but it's like, yeah, if there was somebody that was my age, Cal close enough to me, I think there would have been more conversation. And truthfully like Cal's met those people much quicker than I have in the Wasa area where we live.

(...)

I'm able to be friends with

dads of those families and these relationships are getting stronger and stronger, but that trust, that camaraderie in a way, wasn't really present in a way where it's like, yeah, I'll call you up and just chat.

Well, and I felt that as a mom, the whole like, well, like I know there are resources,

(...)

I just don't have the capacity to look for them. Nor do I feel like they really vibe with me and I'm not comparing my situation to yours because I had Kelly. So I had, you know, I'm just, I understand that impulse of like, I know there are things out there, but I actually just don't have energy or capacity to look for them and then figure out if they vibe with me. And anyways,

I mean, I feel like the record should be said that the resources were as close as the book was on the coffee table while I was sitting on the couch.

(...)

Yeah, but for me, when I'm tired, absorbing like a full chapter of a book, are you kidding?

Exactly.

Like who is your wife and how does she do that?

I don't know. If I can choose binge watching something or intentionally reading a book about how I want to make parenting decisions and I have four hours of sleep on the docket,

(...)

I'm going to be watching some TV.

(...)

That's just, you know, as long as I'd say as long as they're healthy, happy and safe,

(...)

what else do you need?(...) Maybe a little bit of structure.

(...)

And this is where the complementarity between you and CalPAL comes in. I love it.

I mean, you outlining all of those things, Kyle and I actually talked about that a lot when you guys were going through it.

But you really don't know even a little bit what it's like until you're in it. Like having Kieran made me want to write a like thank you slash I'm sorry note to every single woman in my life that I had watched have a baby to just be like, I didn't know. Like I didn't know what you were going through. Like I'm so sorry. Like I had no idea how to show up for you.

(...)

Like I just didn't. And I don't know if you really can until you go through it. But I want to know how you

(...) how you avoided feelings of bitterness when you were watching those Instagram reels, when you were buckling down to buy your first house and you were talking about all your friends kind of launching their careers, which by the way, you and Kelly also did that when you were having babies. So I mean, you did all these things and you guys are always funny. Like Kevin, you make me laugh all the time, even when Callie's complaining about something you did. I usually think it's funny like nine times out of 10.

So it probably was.

(...)

So like,

(...)

how do you, how'd you do that?

I think I,

how do I say it? My personality,

(...)

I think I show Cal a lot more of the,(...) I'm frustrated a lot more of the,

(...)

I think this is a little bit of bullfish right now.

(...)

Maybe that kind of runs through my head, but it's, it's like a way of like, if I get it out, then I'm not going to sit and stew on it. And sometimes I'll get into a loop. I mean, Cal, you probably know what I'm talking about, but like, it just like it, like I'll fixate on something and it would be a bother or a problem. Or

it's this,

running through my mind that yeah, it's hard. It's really easy to get bitter and be like, gosh, what could have been? And I mean, ultimately Cal, I've said it multiple times, like you ever think about what life would be like without kids right now? And it

it's like you get that almost that feeling of like the dopamine rush of

(...)

no, like that would be a cool life to have. But then like so much emotion and thought memory floods back in right after it of the joy that kids bring.

That's a perfect pivot into

are moments of deep joy or happiness that you can think of that were surprising to you?

potty,

training. I mean, come on. Let's just quickly recap Charlie's journey.

Potty training. Oh my God.

took him like three tries and it was locked in. Yeah.

I think he's three days of many accidents.(...) Yeah.

I mean, that's how I heard it. But to be fair,

(...)

a good chunk of those were spent on a road trip with Cali.

Yeah. Okay. Come on. How can you not have Julian as a parent when you're driving down the highway and your kid goes, Hey, I have to go potty. And you're like, it's go time. Find the nearest exit,(...) whip out the little toilet that you carry around in your car, pop it on the ground. Have your kid just kind of sitting there just like, like waiting for the potty to happen. And we're just all just like vibing in this random parking lot outside of the hotel and the most secluded place that we could try to find. But like,

Something about the potty training is just like, dude, you get it. You're special. You're cool. I love it.

I also... And then dude, you see your son, like Charlie, you get it.

Yeah. Yeah.

(...)

It's just,(...) you asked me like, what brings joy? That's something. Another thing would be,

I think watching Charlie truly express himself,

it's tough because then like I try to join him in the expression and typically he is like, Oh, people were watching me. I'm not going to do any work.

Like you're trying to help Charlie express Charlie or you're saying, cool, Charlie, you're really expressing yourself. Let me express myself. Like what, what do you do?

Yes. Without any of the words. It's just like if he's vibing and he's singing, it's like, I'm going to sing with you and I don't know what song we're singing, but it's going to be fun. Yeah. Typically he gets shut down. He goes, that's not the song we're singing.

(...)

Yeah.

What a little tyrant. She will diva.

Which is so funny. And anyway,

I would say like with Nora, just like seeing the different personalities between the two kids.

Selfishly I wish Nora at, she likes, she's 16 months now.

18.

not quite talking yet.(...) And that to me is

like just waiting for it to happen.

(...)

And I guess like the joy in that when, when she really takes off is it's going to be incredible.(...) But like today I got home from work and she couldn't stop saying dad, dad, dad, dad, dad.

But she also like her dancing. Anytime she hears music, she's got to start twirling in a circle. Like it's just the little things it's like, it's, it's, I don't know what brings joy. It's the perspective of just like a child's mind walking through life and finding things to be curious about.

And they are so different. I love it.

we're here to say honest things. So it's okay if you don't have an answer to this.

(...)

I'm curious if you had any moments of extreme joy or even just happiness that were surprising to you prior to Charlie turning two.

how about when I kept saying shart and he was belly laughing?

(...)

No. Okay. That reminds me. Huh? Pause. Yes, that's funny.(...) But he was like, he started talking. Anytime he would say sit, it was actually shit. Oh, he said that was so funny. And he carried that sucker right into church. And he go anytime we would stand up, sit down Catholic church happens a lot. He would say, mama shit. And he would say it loud and you only stand up and sit down in church when it's quiet.

Fox, let's just, he could not say,

yes, Fox's own special. And the thing is you don't realize how many Fox's are in children's stories until that is an issue.

And then when he gifts the entire extended family with the way that he pronounces coffee.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I forgot about coffee.

(...) That wrecked me.

(...)

So for listeners, he would exchange the F and the C sounds, fucky for sure. Yeah. But it really sounded more like something else.

(...)

And we would say, hey, what's mommy having with breakfast?

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

for the listeners out there, I think our Kalanai's kids are,

don't want to necessarily be a martyr, but like they suck at sleeping. They just are terrible. Like abnormally terrible. And I think that Kalanai made some parenting choices that potentially extended the terrible phases.

(...)

But no,

(...)

he looked right at me. He did.

I don't even know where you are in his screen, but I know he did.

(...)

I think like it's that coupled with stressful workloads

Some of it just feels like a blur. But I know like if I pulled up like reels in my phone, I captured video evidence of joyous awesome time with, with Charlie. And it's just, you know,(...) your brain doesn't really quite mark off memories the same way when you're sleep deprived for nine to 12 to 18 months in a row.

I was going to say 24 months.

I stopped sleeping. Like probably when Cal hit like month six of pregnancy and it carries right on through.

Why did you stop sleeping? I'm confused as well. Like you did not.

Have you heard of the O'Leary thrash?

(...)

Oh, yeah.

And like, no, Cal had restless legs. Cal, this is real. You had restless legs. You'd get up in the middle of the night all the time.

(...)

I would say that she doesn't know these.

(...) Another surprising thing for all the dads out there. Like mood swings are a real thing. And to be honest, I wasn't sure how to process the mood swings. No, it's not surprising, but it's like, you don't really get it until you see your actual loved one who is carrying your child.

(...)

Feel the extremes. And I think maybe for me, it was a little different because Cal is very like she's, she's even Steven, like she can go through life and she can, she can hide a lot. And it stopped hiding.

(...)

When the mood swings came so like that, like month six and beyond was just,

got to be a little extra careful, you know?

(...)

Yeah, she's a machine. And also, I mean, I think the whole extended family just deemed that to be her truth telling era, which never ended. Which is ongoing, which we're grateful for. But what a real shift for you.

(...)

So, okay, on that note, what, what are things that, that future fathers should know that we don't talk about or that you don't hear about or, you know, things that like you knew roughly to kind of expect mood shifts, mood swings, but then when they happened, you were like, what? You know, no one can really tell me that this is coming in a way that I can expect.

(...)

The lack of sleep.

(...)

Oh yeah. Okay. Say more. Cause you, you guys are experts in this.

I would say you just, you don't know what it feels like. You don't know how to process it until you experience it. And the reality is like, I read in one of Callie's books that an infant sleeps for 21 hours a day. And that book was a liar.

(...)

There is no way any of our kids from the beginning of their life have slept for 21 hours in a 24 hour cycle.

Well, it was just like 45 minutes on 45 minutes. Yeah. They just kind of like zonk. Yeah.

Kind of like move around and they like flop, you know?

No, I mean, it's also pretty cute when they would do that. Yeah.

(...)

But I just like, I was expecting this glorious experience of like, no matter what I do to this kid, he's just going to sleep on my chest. I'm going to play video games. I'm going to have chips next to me and I would be like, Oh, Cal, I can't get up because there's a baby sleeping on me.

So you were gamer dad. And no, never like in my head. I was that's what I'm saying.

You were never got teed up correctly. Yeah.

Okay. Well that would have been a brutal awakening for you if that was your expectation here.

It was. And it was sad.

Another thing

you can't be prepared for. And I would actually encourage all dads to do this.

You need to go look at pictures of a brand new baby before you see the birth. Not watching a birth. I mean, that was a part of Kalani's process, but you know what? All of our birthing classes were about the birth. It wasn't about the baby that happened from the birth.

(...)

I say all of this. I saw Charlie and I was so ready for that like wave of like, I'm going to protect him to the end of my days. This is my child.

You knew that might happen to you. Like you were expecting that.

I was so ready for it.

Okay.

I mean, I'm a theater kid, so I'm just like, I've seen all the scenes in the movies.

You were thinking like a Lion King moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Doctor holds up the baby.

Yeah.

(...)

I was like, first born baby. I didn't know the gender at the time.

(...)

And I froze. I like the image still like in my head of like, whoa.(...) First phrase I thought of was, are we sure he's done? Like I know the birth just happened, but

(...)

Charlie, I love you. You had a glow up. But they're the first,

(...)

I don't,

(...)

you can't,

he's still speechless.

I don't even know if the four, here's the thing. Like what you Google newborn baby. Like no, it's you don't look that up online. You just, you gotta like,

can we dig in here?

I don't know.

Are you talking about like, you know, all the goop covering Charlie or

like swollen beyond belief?

(...) Yeah. Okay.

(...) So you see that came out two weeks later, completely different human being.

Yeah.

(...) Completely different.

Can we also say like, I can't claim to be unbiased because I'm not,

but they have like model children. Like they are so freaking cute. Charlie's got these like big soulful eyes and just super expressive face. Like, like they're really cute.

They're so cute.

But now more early two days after he was born. Yeah.(...) Okay. Whenever you came home from the hospital,

(...)

I thought he was so cute that like, I think you were very biased then. No, like when he was just sleeping,(...) like he just, he was just like this perfect little baby who's so cute. He was like really hairy. I loved it. So hairy. Okay. But like the baby that I met on your front porch is a completely different baby than the alien picture that Kevin reveled in sending to the public. Like his co-workers staff. Like yeah. Yeah. Like I, so, so Kevin, like what did you do with that shock? You see your, your son, he's swollen. Are there any other adjectives you'd care to add to that? She was pretty goopy. Swollen, goopy, red.

I mean, he was goopy, but like,

he was curled up. Like, like,

this kid is so cute. Like I just can't stress this enough.

I love him to death. And but, but like, I was so ready for that like magical, like all of the lights shut off in the room and then there's a backlight behind Charlie and it looks like he's like this beautiful gift to this green earth.

Well, you planned lighting for this moment. That is their later kid fog.

Like almost like angels, just like chorus singing in the background.

Yeah. Okay.

We just got so close to describing like the birth of Jesus.

But so Charlie was going to be the second coming. We get it. Okay.

And then, and then you know, we're expecting that. Like it was, it was, it caught me off guard so much. The doctor goes, Hey dad, you want to tell mom the gender of your baby?

(...)

And I couldn't talk. I think I was probably quiet for like a solid three seconds.

(...)

And at that point I had processed enough to say, okay, at least figure out if you have a son or a daughter, but I still, I'm going to be honest. Hey listeners, I couldn't figure it out.

Were you like not capable of looking in the right places? No.

I just, it was everything was so just like, he was just like a little guy, just like,(...) like little squishy football.

A little fruit squishy fruit.

the doctor had to announce it.

(...)

Wasn't ready for that. I was hoping I would be able to say it, but I couldn't.

So when did the moment happen? And you did feel fierce love.

I would say when skin to skin contact happened.

Oh, it's so pretty quick.

Yeah. This is my little guy to take care of.

always been so good with newborns, like small babies.(...) That's true. Just very natural with them. Like way better than I am.(...) Same. Yeah.

I think it's because I really hope if I'm holding the newborn, nobody's going to ask me to do something else.

(...)

You excel Kevin rule.

Wait, that that's another question. Were you around other babies before you had your own? So this is your first baby.

First baby I touched.

I said, what is that real?

Yeah.

I think so.

Yup.

What?

I was like, I have this fear in the back of my head, Emily, and it's still carry, even though I have my own kids and like, I know I can handle a kid. I get the kids thrash. Charlie actually thrashed out of my hands when he was very little,

I was trying to talk on the phone like this and I was trying to put Charlie down on our changing table and he rolled right out of my hands. So Cal here's a thump and then a scream and then I like the scream started and I said, call you back and hung up.

Yeah.

it's all the dads out there. Mistakes happen.

(...)

Your kid will likely bounce back. It's all good.

This is not medical advice. What's the disclaimer that you got to put out there anyway?

Okay.

(...)

So what, what, what was the question again?

I was just kind of curious if you'd been around babies before. If this was, no, yeah, sorry. It's totally new territory for

I grew up in a very like traditional,

scape of

versus female responsibility. And so

though there like wasn't urge

to like hold, hold the baby. Like it's, it's not something I'd pursue

So gender roles were so clearly defined in your mind that you just didn't even step out of your sphere.

Yep. That's not my, that's not my role. That's not my responsibility, but also I was the youngest on my family side, almost the entire side. Yeah. No other babies.

I was the baby growing up

So I'm going to take this

gender role environment that you grew up with and I'm going to raise you one marriage with a strong woman who asks you to show up in a different way. And I'm going to add a phrase that was bandied about quite a lot when you were a young dad, which you still are a young dad, uh, which was very hands on father. He's a hands on dad, cousin's a hands on dad.

So you appear to be showing up differently in your marriage and potentially in your fatherhood than the way that you were raised.

Yes, no. Give me a, how do you feel about that statement?

I'd say yes.

am I allowed to talk about the cheat sheet?

I took notes.

You took notes, Kevin.

Yeah. That's why I keep rustling the paper because I'm trying to read what I wrote down because it's good stuff over here. We haven't gotten to most of it.

I bet it is.

Well, where I was going with this was I want to know what makes you feel valued now as a husband and a father.

So Emily, you're asking different questions than what we're on the sheet. So now you're making me think of it off the top of my head.

what makes me feel valued?

it's in the moments

gives me

duty time.

like for us, our life is very much structured right now where it's like I get home from work and

here's the kids you're on.(...) And

I'm not supposed to, even though I almost do every day,

the responsibility back. But

just, I know Cal needs that little break after she's had them for eight straight hours and plus sometimes.

that value comes in when it's like Cal says like, Hey,

you go do woodshop time.

do you need to go fold laundry? Which for me is a time for me to just like plug in, separate,

chill out.

that's one way I feel value.(...) Another

is when the random church people will come up to me after a church service and

give like that,

nod of encouragement of like,

doing some good work. You're doing incredible things with your kids.

those moments where it's like, I was on by myself, Cal's run a music at the start, like top of church.

And when that successful, even when it's not successful, but somebody else acknowledges like dude, you're going through it and you're doing it well.

That's nice.

So as a dad,

you feel value as a father when people are like, I see you, I see what you did there.

Nice work.

And I think like the other thing to, to kind of wrap around for myself, because it ties back into like, I'm, I'm the first one in my group to, to do this thing called being a dad.(...) And

I had to kind of carve out my own path of,

is this going to look like for me?(...) And I can take my experience with my own family. I can take the experience of what I've seen on media, on TV, take the experience from stories, books,

was a musical theater all through

through high school.

And honestly, those typically your, your average show with the character that needs to do something big and bold has a support system or has a family where either the family stuff's not very good or the family stuff's really good and really supportive. And it's like, you kind of just take what you like, piece it together, put it into the shape of what

want to exemplify.

So back to support, I mean, as you're assessing through all of these values that you're taking or you're leaving or you're celebrating, or they're helping you be the hero in this music theater life of yours or not,

(...)

how are you finding support or are you not like, have you not really found it yet?

Obviously I would say like, I might not have found it fully.

but I don't know if like, that's the response you're going to get from most

I mean, like I'm in

I'm, I'm choosing to not do it the way that it has been carved out. Like you said, like, Oh, he's such an involved dad. And I'm like, isn't this just like what happens

in my mind? Yes, it's exactly what happens. Like previous generations have been shook by your involvement as a dad,

guess like where the support comes from that, that gives me encouragement to do it that way. Not only is from Cal and like the expectation of my like family,

but also like

like you see fun influencers

a meaningful impact at least on camera

a good dad.

couple of that come to mind is this guy that I love watching woodworking bourbon moth. He's constantly working on projects or doing projects for his kid and involving his kid and what he does for work. And like, you see that play between the two of them.

And then like dude, dad, dude's an inspiration. He's hilarious, but also like, it

things he puts out, I think has always been an inspiration for me of like,

only is that funny, which I love to lean into funny, but at the same time, it's like he clearly just told a story about something I was just struggling with, but it helped me feel better about my struggles and I love it.

So like that's,

I get support, but it's just, it's not in the form of like close connection, conversational support.

That is such a funny juxtaposition because we've talked about

how the

social media influences are often negative for you and I, Emily,

(...)

like aspirations to be this mom that is just like not even real, can't be achieved.(...) And Kevin's on this total other end of the spectrum right now

you know, it just like gives him extra juice. It's encouraging. It's funny. It's fun. Like watching these dads online, that is a conversation for another day, but just fascinating.

It's interesting.

So social media for me, a lot of people

think say that they feel negatively about it. I actually don't. When I talk about the negative things that I've experienced and it's only since I've tried to dig into mom culture and it's not because I feel bad or negative. I just am like, this is a confusing lifestyle or image to me. Like I do not resonate. Like this is not, this does not feel connected for me. It's not like

I should be doing this. I shouldn't. I don't think I have any mom guilt on social media yet. There's plenty of time.(...) And I think I actually do behave more like Kevin on social media when I see something I like and I'm like, oh, good for you. You're balling. Like I could, that could be me if I made some choices, if I chose to do that, if I wanted that, but they tend to be more business women who have kids. But anyways, circling back to,(...) sounds like you're getting a lot of support on social media, which is really interesting to

It's something that wouldn't be possible 10 years ago even, I think, or at least not in the same way that it is now.

He really means like funny activities to do, which Kevin loves doing and the kids love it.

So I needed to do a circle back when you said that Callie had put all this time and effort and hours into whatever and parenting and all that. And I am honestly wowed and impressed by all of that and inspired by the work that she does in that arena too. I do just want to give you some kudos though too and just say that the work that you do

(...)

in regards to structuring and intentionally having a family might look different than Callie's, but it doesn't mean it's any less valuable. So I would just like to point out that you are also putting in a lot of hours and a lot of thought and energy. It just looks different and it should look different because you're different complementary people. I'm going to get off my soapbox and ask you

you think that dads are being left behind in our country culturally,

yeah, I guess what I had to say on that is I don't actively feel like I'm trying to look for

backup on what it means to be a good dad.

it ultimately is just it comes down to like dads now have a wider and a broader expectation

most

that have come before just generationally speaking. Being a dad has evolved into something different. And it doesn't mean that I had a bad dad. I had a phenomenal dad.

He's still around Rick.

Yeah.

Shout out to Rick. He's a good one.

(...) And he's taught me so much.

But like his style is different from mine. He's more reflective, more

But it's like when I hear my dad talk, like I know it's time to listen. And like I learned that over time. And for me, my kids are probably going to be tired of me talking by the time they're 10. But

never know when a nugget of wisdom is going to drop. It's that creative side. You know, I didn't come in here expecting to describe Charlie as a squishy fruit. But hey, from now on, that's what you got to think about when you go into newborn stage.

Never going back. Yep.

Are they getting left behind?(...) No.

(...)

Because it's like we're all morphing together. It feels like at least my circle is.

I'd like my full expectation is I'm going to be able to have Charlie be a better father figure than me.

my hope and goal. And I want to be happy and proud of the day that that happens. Not sad that I couldn't have been better because I think I'm doing the best I can right now.

But

it's always evolving. So it's not,

I don't know.

Dude dad all the way.

of always evolving,

(...)

what major changes did you see from Callie and more Emily? Yeah, take her leave me. But for sure, Callie

she was going through matrescence.

(...)

Yeah. Can you give me a definition of that word, please?

(...)

I don't have it pulled up.

So I'm going to like, what's the origin so I can try to spell it.

(...)

Hey, Kevin, have you listened to our episode on matrescence?

(...)

Sure hasn't. Homework for you.

Yeah,

Matrescence is the term for the physical, emotional and social transition that a person goes through when becoming a mother. So it was coined in the 70s. It's very new. I cannot say that it's mainstream. It's definitely more academic these days.

(...) Yeah.

However, I'm obsessed with it because if you compare it to adolescence, like our bodies as women are going through these huge physical shifts, the people we're surrounding ourselves within the things people we need, that's all changing. We go through this kind of crises of values often, like what's actually important to me. I'm evaluating kind of all the foundational ideas I had about my life.

So it's pretty, it's kind of major, you know?

(...)

No, absolutely. And thanks for sharing that, Emily.(...) That was for all of the listeners that are going to be tuning in to Kevin Rule's episode that haven't heard the other ones before. So just gives them more context.

That was the only reason. I

just want to make sure my buddies fully knew

context of my response here.

Great teaching moment. Thank you. Yeah. Great teachable moment.

(...)

So how did Cal change essentially as motherhood came on?

(...)

It's a tough question to ask because like Cal and I didn't get to experience adulthood.

We were living it up in college where we were just like snowshoeing to the bar,

really having responsibility,(...) staying up too late, sleeping in.

Well, Cali doesn't, but you probably did.

On a dime that switched.

(...)

It just flipped.(...) It flipped faster than we were ready for. So

not sure what cadences Cal and I would have fallen into of what our individual needs would have been within our relationship because it really went from

to a six month stretch of being engaged

a pandemic. It's like we weren't really doing much outside of like being together, eating pizza on couch bed.

it's a good memory Cal.

(...)

Somehow it is for me too.

(...)

We went from that experience straight to having kids.

So like how did I see Cal change? I just feel like both of us in a way, our maturity just had to step up and we didn't have a choice not to.(...) And so like

mama bear vibes.

Cal just became a mama bear.

Everything that she

was for the betterment of Charlie. And then when Nora came into the scene,

she was mama bear for Nora specifically.(...) And not that she left Charlie to the side, but it's like, okay, there's a little bit more liberties now automatically because brand new baby Nora is

needs my full attention, needs my full support.

said,

become a parent and your kids become just so important to you.

focus

kind of put in my mind, like if I had to try to summarize it in words, like an unending deep pride and compassion for the kids is what Cal has. Like it's never going to go away. She could be madder than all else, but I know that that's still going to be there.

abundant love.

Cal and I can love each other as a husband and wife,

(...)

but it's a different feeling. I think for both of us, when we refer to the love that we have for our kids.

And like, so that was something that changed because now we're no longer like pouring into each other,

now it's like all for the kids.

That's what flipped in our heads. That's what changed. Now we have to re navigate as parents of like, okay, let's restructure our hierarchy of needs and our relationships. And like we have to intentionally put ourselves, Cal and I ahead of that.(...) And I think it's almost because we know we have to work for that love for each other.(...) And like the kids are like, it's innate. It's just there.

(...)

Yeah, that's real.

(...)

You began this with Cal and then you switched into like us, like our parenting journey.(...) When you think about Patrescents, which if you can think back to, you know, like a minute ago when I shared the definition from Patrescents, it would be the journey of the fatherhood. Do you think that for you, that shift in identity and personal evolution was on par with Cali or do you think it was more, less different? How would you compare the two from your vantage point?

(...)

Less.

Good luck to anybody that wants to try to say that they could compete with Cal's shift.

was there for the kid.

like, keep in mind, like I never knew what parenting an infant baby looked like. I was the baby of my family. I never saw anybody else close to me do it except for like that young family that would show up at church. But I never got that. Like, Hey, maybe that mom doesn't want people touching their baby.

thought that thought never crossed my mind. I never thought that maybe that mom needs some space in the first

months, 12 months. Turns out breastfeeding is pretty difficult and it's like kind of puts you into this phase of like, don't touch me.

Leave me alone. I don't want you breathing on my kid.

(...) Yeah. 100%.

were conversations that Cal and I had of like, to me, like those thoughts never crossed my mind. When we had Charlie, I was ready to like toss them into other people's arms of like, how cool is this? And Cal was like on top of it. Just like, get, stop it.

Like I was, I wanted people running in with balloons into the like hospital room.(...) I also just like probably should have given Cal a little more attention on her needs directly after the birth. But like I was ready to party. I was like, where's the champagne? This is wild.

So we all hustled into Nora's to your hospital room the day after Nora was born. No, I did want that.(...) Yeah. No, you were totally gracious. We all took you at your word when you were like, yeah, please come and Cali you were, I was like, wow, you look great. This is amazing. Good vibes all around. There were a ton of alleris in your hospital room. In K rule, you were like party vibes. And I was just watching you being like, what?(...) And it's wild to hear that that was 100% correct in what you were feeling. And it's so funny because you're like, here's my kid. I'm going to show off every, you want to see my kid? You want to see my kid? Is this nurse down the hall? See my kid? Like, my mind's actually right now.

Have you given my kid kisses yet? You should kiss him.

No, it's not that bad. You're not that bad.

Honestly though, Cal, I like that.

You were leaning into this.

Those thoughts weren't

that like protection wasn't crossing my mind. I'm like, this kid's going to survive it. And this is going to be so awesome to share this joy with everybody else.

Yeah. So Cali's journey into matrasins is like 10 out of 10. Yours is like four out of 10 for patrasins. Like what, what kind of evolution are we talking about here?

In terms of like how I changed.

Yeah. I

it honestly,(...)

guys say I was better with the little baby.

(...)

I'm not sure I agree with that in terms of like, what was going through my head?

(...) Good to know.(...) You're just very good at soothing them.

Well, you're very good at like comforting and yeah.

Like I had it in my head. Like, you know, this kid

they cried. Like Cal had to teach me that like consistent reminders of

need to be there to comfort, said kid. This, this comes back to sleep training and really kind of what I'm focusing on and saying this, but it's like, I was willing to say like, great, like one month in let's do some sleep training. Like let's, let's get this kid sleeping through the night.

One month in Cal's.

I mean, Cal, am I wrong? I'm pretty sure like

I was that it was like four months. You were like, Hey, we need to do this.

I would push it to three, but

the point is the point is like I was pushing for it because I didn't have that same connection that Cal had anytime she heard the cry.

(...)

So like back to like, did it change? I think yes, but I almost feel like my, my change was more for seeing the need from Kelly

than seeing the need from Charlie.

You were taking your cues directly from Cal pal.

Yeah.

(...)

Okay. So last, last little segment, Cal I'm watching the time. Thank you.

want to know how you felt that you showed up well for Kelly during these phases. Cause you've talked a lot about how she's shown up for you. How do you feel that you've shown up for her part, part one, part B, are there ways that you feel you want to show up better? Should you have another baby or things you want to coach future dads on in showing up for their partners?

yeah.

a, that's a deep question. So how did, let's break it down first.

I think,

cause the question is how did I show up for Kelly? Right?

Yeah.

I think I stepped more out of my comfort zone. I'm a very big people pleaser.

(...)

I just, I want everybody else to experience just as much, if not more joy than I have.

And that's just by nature. So I think like the way that I truly showed up for Cal and like the biggest possible

would be

up for what her needs were and helping her build those boundaries as we were navigating this new world. And that, that mainly goes into like protecting her privacy and her need to protect Charlie(...) as an infant.

(...)

So while I had the urge of wanting to pass Charlie around,(...) and I'm pretty sure I did the first time that everybody came over to say hi to him,

she called me on it. And like the way that I showed up is like, I adjusted my expectations to what it is that Cal needed or,

It's like the late night things of like getting up and walking around, especially like right after Cal was all stitched up and had just like given birth. Like I didn't do, I'll get to the, that part, the part that I need to do better at, but like I would try to get out of bed,(...) hold said child, soothe the child back to sleep. I think, um, I was, I was much more well rested with Charlie than Nora, just even going into it. And so I was more willing to say like, Hey, I'm going to take the night shift. When I took that opportunity just to like, this is going to be Kevin time too. So that when I'm awake, it's going to be

out. This is Kelly's time for me to do my best to get her what she needs. And I think there's always going to be a sense that I can do better with that. You know, we're kind of jumping into this journey of Cal identifying like, you know, I might, I might be a little bit prone to distractions.

(...)

And so

how can I do better for the next kid? I think it's identifying and understanding that part of my life and like being in a position where I'm intentionally setting myself up for success,

in better and better ways of eliminating the distractions.

don't get anything in the longterm out of looking at my phone. I get a whole lot out of the longterm of being present with my kids.

just kind of challenging myself to be in the moment.

back to what else I can do better. Hey dads, every dad that's listening out there, if you are a dad, if you were a dad, or if you're going to be a dad, um, or if you know somebody that's going to be a dad, I think I covered it all.

Tell them to let their wife sit in bed for the first seven days.

(...)

I think that's, it's, it's 15 first days.

For the first 15 days, you're gonna, you're gonna

sit in bed.

You're going to keep moving around the house to do all of the things.

I want the number 15,(...) 15, I want the number, no, no, I'm getting to it.(...) 15 days in everyone's brains. The first five days are in the bed. Not even seven, five days are in the bed.

(...)

The next five days are near the bed, not moving far from the bed.

(...)

So like just kind of around the room to the shower, you know, and then the last five days are just like around the house, but still near the bed. And I just need to share those numbers because they are actually linked to a better experience.(...) They are, they are linked to decreasing postpartum depression and promoting faster healing cycles for women. So just, just so we've got, we can, we can cite the numbers. We can look up the data and put it in the show notes, but 15, one, five, not seven, double that plus a day.

You heard it here, folks.

For those that needed to be comprehend that I'm like, yeah, we know

for those that need to hear it the way that I need to hear it is no pooping for five days. Cause you're in the bed.

(...)

Bed pans only. Oh my God. Just no pooping.(...) Well, wait, I didn't.

You didn't.

You don't. I didn't.

This is another thing. Did anybody know that?

Seven days before I pooped.

Yeah.

We've covered that. Is that a real? I think I forgot postpartum. Oh, I couldn't poop after Charlie.

(...)

It was incredible.

Seven days.

Oh, I think I was on a bunch of laxatives because I had a cesarean.(...) I had those 15 days and more, but different story.

I was not good at letting Cal be in the bed

the five days.

Cal, you'd have to make Cal, you'd have to like for sure in there and like buckler. That's the problem.

Yeah, but also like problem is here. Yeah.

Kevin is not the problem.

Cal has expectations for how this world is supposed to work and operate. And it's hard to get that all to be met.

As a small man.

Where she can sit back and just be content.

(...)

That's true.

back to the joy or things that shook you. We got to the shaking branch on the fruit tree. I'd like to move to the trunk that you're shaking.

Yeah.

Sticking with this metaphor.

These might still be branches, but,

So this is just, any of your, your, your list.

Yeah. I had a surprise, the surprises that I had, um, what the baby looked like. We did cover that, but it just wasn't like fully in the section of surprises.

that the baby was squishy.

So squishy. Yeah.

That's not what babies look like on TV.(...) Um, lack of privacy.

(...)

Oh,

(...)

oh, like you don't have privacy.

You don't have privacy. Like you have an infant, that infant sleeping in your bedroom for the next three to six months.

You don't have privacy from the infant. That was, that was new for you. Yeah. I fixed my face. Okay. I mean, yeah, no, that makes sense.

No, these are things Emily, that it's like, I had it in my head like, oh yeah, we got the nursery ready. Like let's put the baby in the nursery. Turns out no. Baby stays in your bedroom for six months.

You built the bassinet. You put it together.

I did, but I thought that was like the 15 day rule of like, Hey, baby's just going to be around for 15 days. And then they're going to start sleeping through the night because we had friends, the Conway's who like had a three week old that started hitting seven dollar chunks. And I just,

proud of them.

Um,

(...)

another thing that shook me was the cost.

Like I'm sorry, but like when you really like bundle it all together with the baby,

that gets up there.

Mm-hmm. Of just the, the birth, the delivery piece.

Um, all of the hospital visits ahead of the birth and the things that they do with those visits, ultrasounds, all that stuff, it gets built separate. It's expensive. The birth itself is expensive.

but then also like you get out of the hospital and all of a sudden you're buying all this extra stuff for your house.(...) The moment baby starts to eat actual food, not like you're no longer

your stuff into the cabinets. It's like the baby gets their own shelf in the cabinet and it's just like the cost keeps coming back.

We have diapers, child care. Ooh. Yeah.

(...) And I think like for a while Charlie was like, he was good at pooping.

So we were flying through those things.

(...)

So

So okay. Hey, when you get to toddler phase, the questions never stop. And that is something where it's like, yeah, that's obvious. That's what they're going to do. You don't know what it feels like. Cause I told myself, I'm never going to say no to a question. I'm going to be that dad. That's just you that answers all the questions. I'm going to be there for it. I think that lasted 20 minutes.

You don't even respond. Kevin just like stares off blankly and then he'll ask me. So I'll have to be like Kevin,(...) Kevin.

Yeah. That's a problem. And I got to get better at it. I'm sorry, Cal.

(...)

Um, Hey, you want to know another thing that threw me? This is what shook me to the core actually. And Cal's ankles.

(...)

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm, I'm having a moment. Do you remember Emily's ankles?

No, she also

or may not have likened me to a very rotund character in the Willy Wonka. Remember the girl that blows up? Yeah, it wasn't in the Lumba spoiler. So she wasn't riding on my height. It was something else. Yeah. Anyways, moving on. So Cal his ankles shocked you. Okay.

Let's go. Okay. Emily, this was before Kieran. This was Charlie

or Emily's ankles.

Okay.(...) Cali went to work with normal ankles and when she came back, her ankles, I'm not kidding.

So to all the listeners also, she was a public school choir teacher. Like you were standing all day long with your huge pregnant belly.

And all she said when I got home, it was like the traditional exchange. Hey, how was your day? She just stood at the doorway and goes, my ankles.

(...)

That was all she said. And it's like my eyes went from her eyes down to her ankles. And I was like, that is not your body.

(...)

And Emily, this was less than eight hour turnaround of like no swollen ankle to completely.

A way to describe it would have been like girthy ankles.

Thank you.

(...)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I can picture. Okay. So we're about to wrap this up. Otherwise I'm going to have an aneurysm.

It also shook me. The joy. Okay. It shook me how Cal is uncomfortable in her pregnancy.

(...)

Yeah.

Like she was genuinely uncomfortable for a good majority of it. Yeah. And I guess like I just like, yeah,(...) obvious. Not to me.

Sorry, I'll fix my face.

Because all of these women, when they are not inside of their homes and they're out in the public,(...) you see a pregnant woman. You don't see discomfort. You don't see frustration. You don't see my back has been cramping for the last 17 days and I can't get it to stop. No, you just see them showing up and doing their thing. Whether they have kids or they don't have kids. And I just think

my feeling of being impressed increases the more kids that are around said individual as they're like wrangling them. I'm like, cause that person never gets a break.(...) Never.

Um, I was just going to give you a one round heartfelt thank you for giving our side of the family, Charlie, the first grandkid ever.

(...)

And also doing so with such grace and humor.

Like we all just love to be around you guys, even when you're sleep deprived and you're figuring it out.

(...)

And Kyle and I get to call you all the time to ask you what the hell to do with our small people.(...) So thank you both. We love you.

You're lucky to have the cheerleaders that we do. That's for sure. Well, can't imagine it without that. Honestly, it's really all we can do when

you're really blazing the path.

So

All right. I'm hearing it's time for round three. Here we go.

Hey, yo.

(...)

have a very blessed life.

It's very rich in so many ways outside of

the physical, it like just the emotions that we get to experience on the day to day.

There's plenty of hard times, but you can have 20 hard times and you get that one joyous time and it's like,(...) hell yeah, this is what it's all about.

I think

my wife's beautiful and she's wonderful and I love her very much.

Love you too. Thanks.

(...)

Me too. I also love.

She's pretty sexy.

We love you too, Emily.

Oh, thank you.(...) Thank you.

Let's wrap this sucker up.

Bye. Love you.

(...)

Love you.

Bye. Love you.

(...)