Episode 18: The One for the Homesteading Mom Embodying Her Values with Emily Swanson

In this episode, we chat with our friend Emily, who is deep in the trenches of mom life, about the wild transformation that happens when you become a mother. We’re talking about the surprising emotional shifts (hello, mom rage), learning how to do something purely for enjoyment without guilt, and why stepping into motherhood means shedding old versions of yourself—whether you like it or not.

We also dive into homesteading with kids, the need for self-preservation in motherhood, and why carving out space for yourself isn’t just nice—it’s necessary for survival. If you’ve ever wondered if you’re the only one struggling with these massive changes, consider this episode your permission slip to feel it all, drop the guilt, and remember that you’re still you. Emily is incredibly thoughtful and intentional in her parenting and lifestyle choices. We walked away from this conversation feeling uplifted and inspired and we’re sure you will, too.

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Welcome to The Real Mom Hub, where we celebrate the beautiful, profound transformation into motherhood.(...) It's a journey that shatters and rebuilds us in incredible ways. And did you know, there's even a word for it. It's called "matresence." We share the voices of everyday moms in the trenches, honing and discovering their natural instincts and superpowers. We air out the hard parts of parenting people don't like to talk about. We talk to experts to help us make sense of our bodies and our minds. Because "metressence" leaves no one unscathed. And let's be honest, it's as hard as it is joyful. So why not embrace it? Lean into the growth, the struggle, the magic. This is your opportunity for complete and utter personal transformation. Come with us. We're so glad you're here.

Ponds? Fun. And you were ice skating on it by yourself.

(...) Yeah, so I prefer to jog or lift. I really like jogging, because I just like being outside to get exercise.(...) But during this winter, it's just nice to, I don't know, mix it up, do something else. So

So we cleared off part of our pond and we take the kids skating down

there. So then I'll just go down there and play music and skate in circles just to get some exercise. I don't know.

Yeah, it's great. It's like, I'm having some best homestead life.

(...)

I'm gonna come over with my skate so nice.

No, I'm really looking forward to when the kids are a little older to having skating parties

(...)

can you just give us a little like, this is my life right now, kids, husband, you know, like what's your day today?

so yeah, so we have, Eric is my husband and we have three kids ages six, four and one and a half.

I stay home with them and I homeschool the oldest, Linda, she's in kindergarten, so it's like not that intense, you know. We just sit and like do a little reading and math every day.

and then I live on

like a homestead farm type thing. So Eric works full time as an agricultural engineer, but we have a herd of beef cattle that he mostly manages. And then I help him with

marketing side of it. And I also grow a huge garden, take care of pigs and chickens,(...) sell eggs to our friends,(...) preserve a bunch of produce,(...) make bread. You know, like I just cook a lot basically.

(...)

I'm just in the kitchen a lot.

And you were before your science teacher? Yes.

I taught for three years full time. When we had Linden,(...) I just went part time.(...) And then after Sigurd, which was awesome, I really enjoyed that. And then when Sigurd was born, we decided to move, we were living in Madison, we decided to move up here.

So at that point I didn't look for work and decided to stay home.

When number two came along. I'm like, I have so many questions for you. I'm gonna really struggle in this conversation to straddle the line between like, tell me everything about homesteading and your life and also like, hey, we're here to talk about metressics. I learned her. She's a mother, but brain's already going to so many different places.

I wanna start with the presence piece.

I'm curious, first of all, what surprised you or was really unexpected for you when you first became a mom?

I didn't know what it meant to be tired, right? Like when you're in college, you're tired.(...) Yeah. But it's so different.(...)

and I had times when I was like, I'm so tired and I don't know when I'm gonna get sleep because I have this test of that thing that like, you know, so there were like moments of like kind of desperation,(...) exhaustion, if you know what I mean. But

it's just nothing like getting woken up every three hours, just like, it's just nothing like that. And a good night. So when I'm thinking like, like the very first thing that surprised me,

but then at the same time, like,

(...)

I couldn't believe how much I loved Linden like the second I saw her. And I realized that I'm lucky and then not every woman experiences that, but

was like a mama bear from day one. I was like, this is my baby.

It was actually kind of hard for me when we were

at the hospital after she was born. And

Eric and I didn't know what we wanted with visitors and

And I

quickly realized I didn't really want visitors, but then

were just people around and it was hard. I didn't know how to like

people what I needed.

now I would be like, okay, I need space. And they knew that that's just it, right?

it was just crazy to have these feelings of like, I need to be with this baby and no one else can be here. I was just like not ready for that at all.

I wasn't either. And I wasn't that extreme. Like I wanted people there, but only certain people. And I had such a visceral reaction to like the idea of strangers or yeah. Yes.

I'm usually such an extrovert. I want everybody to come over and hang out all the time.

It was so weird. And it was very much like, I think,

within a few weeks I wanted people to visit and I wanted people over. It was just like that initial bonding phase. I didn't know what that was gonna feel like at all.

able to identify that in the moment? Or was it you looking back being like, wow, I had.

No, I was like trying not to cry.(...) Like, cause I just, you know, like I just, it was more,

it was just really hard.

by the time we had, well, our second was born during COVID. So no one could come anyway. And I was kind of like great. But then,

parents and Eric's parents wanted to be respectful of, but I think it was also hard for them, which is understandable. They want to come meet their baby, like a grand baby. Like I totally get it.

but I, but I was ready

like more ready for it the second time.

(...)

That's good to hear.

As someone who has yet to experience that.

(...)

I don't know if you guys experienced this, but maybe like a few days into parenting,

(...)

you know, I was sitting on the couch holding Linden and Eric just looked at me and looked at her and was like, I know where babies come from. And I know like you've been pregnant for nine months and I've seen you pregnant, but I'm still just like, where did she come from?

I don't know if you felt like that, but it's just like. Same Eric. Yeah. Same. Yeah, like where did they, I still look at them sometimes. Yes.

(...)

Wow, you're here. This is amazing. You're so cool. Yes.(...)

So what are things that you feel like future mothers should know that aren't talked about?

I really think they should hear how joyful it is. I think a lot of us, I mean, but in a way, right, you either hear, oh, it's so hard or oh, it's amazing. And I feel like day to day, I never experience either of those. Like, right, like, okay, I have had moments where it's often where it feels very, very hard but I never wanna look at my children and say parenting you is so hard. Like, I don't want to use that language in front of them.

But sometimes I have to remind myself

how awesome it is. Like, especially I feel very blessed that I can be at home and be with them so much during the day. And when that's your day to day, it's hard to remember how lucky you are to be able to do that and that not everyone,

know, gets to have children or gets to spend that time with them. So

think I would want mom snow like what makes it so awesome is that it's so hard and that it totally changes you.

(...)

And rather than just saying it's awesome and it's hard, it's like, it's awesome because it's hard and it changes you and you're not the same person afterwards. Like getting back to that matresence idea,

wish I would have like had a better attitude about of like, this isn't something I have to push through.

And when it's really hard, it's also such a gift.

I think if I were to go back and tell my, because there were a couple of years where I was loving my marriage. I was married seven years before we had Kieran, and I was like, maybe I don't want kids. Like I actually might not, I've never really wanted babies.(...) Yeah.

(Laughs)

And I think like after this experience, I think what I would have told myself or wanted myself to know is the transformation is so incredible.

(...) Yeah.

I mean, it's amazing.(...) Throughout the hard,

(...)

really appreciating the person that I'm becoming,

I don't know how you're supposed to show that or talk about it. Like on social media, I think I see a lot of moms complaining or saying, this is hard, we deserve better. Let's be angry, let's be upset about this. And on the flip side, you see,(...) I mean, I think this is where a lot of like the tradwife(...) kind of, I don't know, symbolism comes in where they're just like making the perfect food and everything's beautiful and joyful.

(...)

You see those two things and you don't really talk about, I don't know how you show the hard being powerful and good and I think it is a missing piece of the conversation. Really, it's cool to hear you bring that up.

Yeah, and sometimes it's not even, like I can definitely talk about concrete changes or whatever, but

there's just something beyond words that

doesn't make you feel super happy necessarily, I guess. I feel like that's what we're looking for. We're like, oh, this is gonna be really good. It's like, oh, it's gonna be really fun. It's gonna be really, it's gonna make me really happy, whatever, and it's like, I don't know, it's just not like that, but it still

you.

(...) I feel like being in your kitchen would kind of like, maybe we should do a little doc of Emily prepping all of her food in the kitchen because we talked about how

how we should do a whole episode with Emily Swanson on tradwives. Yeah, oh, I thought you were the homesteading. Well, homesteading and tradwives, right? And she was like, oh, I hate that term. And then I was like, but then I was like, but you kind of are, but my point is like, it's not like you see in social media. Like, yes, you are making all of your food. You're grinding your own wheat and making your own sourdough, but you're doing it like while there's a kid crying,(...) you know, and it's not like this perfect loaf with like wheat carved in the top, you know? I'm like, but you're doing it and you're making all this food and it is joyful, even though it is hard. I just feel like being in your kitchen sort of exemplifies that. You did it, good job. Thanks.

(...)

(Both Laughing)

Well, yeah, maybe I don't necessarily,

I'm not on social media, so I don't necessarily know like what the current tradwife trend is. But when I hear that term, what I think of is like 1950s for some reason. Okay, yeah, and I'm just like, I wanna be like, I'm just earthier than that, I guess. Like I'm not walking in our house in a dress all the time. I don't know.

So in my brain, I guess I would clarify, whenever I say tradwife, it's really hard for me to like take those words seriously. I don't,

guess for me, tradwife seems to be like a frivolous trope

(...)

versus homesteading, I would say, to me is very values-based.

I could see that. I think the other thing I really dislike about it is that

well, traditional means something different for everybody.

(...)

up, my mom worked

time when we were younger, I went to daycare.

(...)

I like definitely grew up in a very career-focused mindset, career-focused environment.

(...)

So I don't feel like what I'm doing is super traditional, if that makes sense. I felt like deciding to step away from a career was really breaking the mold and going against

expectations I had. My parents are now 100%,(...) like they were never opposed to it

(...)

and they're supportive. So I don't feel like I'm like sticking it to my parents or something like that because I mean, I'm literally at their house right now while they're watching my kids, like they're very small.

(...)

(Laughing)

(...) But it still like wasn't what I grew up thinking. So I don't feel like I'm keeping up a tradition as much as like forging the path that works well for our family,

And it sounds pretty counter-cultural. Was that something, that choice that you made to move into this life after you had two babies, was that a surprise to you that you wanted that, that you made that choice? I guess how did you arrive?

(...) Well, it depends on which Emily you're talking about. If you're talking to like 16-year-old Emily, living in Marathon, Wisconsin would not be my goal. Like it wasn't my goal.

I always wanted to be a scientist growing up and I also wanted to be Lori Ingalls. So, you know, I guess I'm doing one and not the other.

I could see a lot of crossover there though. Yeah, you're kind of doing both.

Yeah, like, well,

wanted to be a scientist and I wanted to be a science teacher at different points.

I'm not doing a lot with that right now, but I, so I think that might've surprised my past self(...) to some degree.

What about your freshly married past self? Like before you were even pregnant with Lyndon, would that Emily be surprised or

so Eric and I knew we wanted to farm together when we were dating. Like we both had really strong values in

food and conserving land and resources that way. I mean, it's like his whole job, like his job is to work with farmers to help them conserve their soil and land resources. Like, so he's pretty dedicated.

(...)

So we knew we were going to at some point. I distinctly remember at one point being like, I really don't want to try running a business when we have small children.

(...)

And I was like, I really don't want to move up there until like our kids are older. And then, but then

and more we realized like we're going to get settled in a community and why get settled in here if we're not going to raise our kids here. And then the opportunity came for us to move and we were just ready, I think, to get out of the city. And like,

it's not fun to sit around and talk about doing something as fun to dive in. So yeah. So I think, I was surprised how quickly we jumped into it, but now I'm like, I don't know why we would have waited

(...)

any longer.

So yeah. Though you still love Madison. Like you two share that special joy. I do love Madison.

It is special place.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

And when I go, I'm like, like when we go back to visit, I think I just have such good memories, but I'm also not like, oh, I wish we were still here. Like I haven't had that thought. I wish I could hang out with certain people more often, but that's like it.(...) Okay. But when I say that,

part of that was the fact that when we started,

we had Lyndon and Sigurd and Madison, we couldn't do a lot of the stuff we enjoyed doing in Madison. And maybe you had that experience too with Seattle Emily. Like,

hers. We weren't doing much like we used to. And then it was COVID. So it was just like, so it was just kind of like, we haven't had a lot of fun here for a while, you know.

I mean, that's what I'm saying.

Sorry, I'm gonna say it like that.

(...)

But it

were doing different fun things in Madison, like taking Lyndon to the children's museum and like, I don't know, going ice skating at Tenny Park was really different when we had a baby versus when we just went like at eight o'clock at night. And then it was just different stuff.

Way less romantic, way more like fussy, cold, difficult.

Cold, like, oh, we're gonna do this for a half hour. That's great. Glad we got a house. Yeah,

No, I think about that a lot. It's hard to, you know,(...) be in a community, have a major life shift, and then totally change your whole perception of like what that place is based on your current reality.(...) It's a different feeling of like, oh, I miss those days. It's not like, oh, we could go back and recreate that. It's like, that's gone forever, whether we're there or not.

(...)

Yeah, and that was, I don't know, that was fine. I definitely spent time missing it, but now I'm just like,(...) I don't know, there's different phases of life. We have lots of things now that we enjoy that we couldn't there, so

so we were talking, you've been listening to the podcast and you were really excited to talk about matriarchy because you were inspired to talk about it after seeing the Broadway version of Lion King last weekend, so that's why I really want to hear. Yes, okay.

Let's get earthy, let's go. Right, yeah, so like Lion King, Circle of Life, all that.

whenever I heard other people answer that question on the podcast, I was like, wow, that's a hard question,

hearing people's responses I thought was so interesting,

Are you referring to the question like, when you hear the word matriarch, what comes to mind? Yes. Is that, okay.

That's what I'm thinking of. So it was interesting to hear those responses, I was like, I haven't thought of this, I don't know. And then I'm sitting in the Lion King, which I loved that movie when I was a kid because we're from the 90s, great. And always loved the music, the music in person is like a whole, it's incredible. A million times better, yes. The costumes are incredible, like I just had a great experience. But

there's this extra scene that's not in the movie where

they're like dresses, lionesses, and they are doing this beautiful hunting dance together. I know what you're talking about.(...) So they come on the stage, and I think Nala, like young Nala is with them, and I was like, this is the matriarchy. Like it just like hit me like the lightning bolt because I was like, they're working together with their young. And I was like, that is like what I think of when I think of like women,

that is when we're at our best, is when we're working together, and when we're sharing that with the young. And maybe that means like literally young children, but that I can also think in like workplaces of, like when I was a teacher, like the more veteran teachers like taking me under their wing kind of thing, right? And like working together that way. I also love in the story, the fact that like we see that Nala is like stronger than Simba, like she compounds on him, even when they're grown up. I love that. But so clearly like she could take down Scar, theoretically, right? He's the bad guy. She could be. I never thought of this. Right, but so like if you wanted a more like strictly feminist reading, then lionesses would probably take over, but that wouldn't be as satisfying an ending, I think, than like her going to Simba and being like, this is not your full potential, right? Like Simba is off doing his thing. I know, I'm shook right now. He's like content. He's fed. He's got some friends who aren't really challenging him. And then she's just like, but he's not happy. We see that he's not happy.(...) Then Nala's like, hey, you're meant for something better than this. And like, that's what makes Nala powerful. It's not the fact that she's like physically strong. It's the fact that she like sees the potential in him.(...) I'm sorry, okay.

(...)

So anyway, so I was just really excited about this because I was like, this is what makes women powerful is like seeing the potential in others and helping them reach that potential.

(...)

Okay, let me say it back to you. So you started with women laboring, working together.

(...)

But like if we were to put that in the modern terms, an inclusive workplace, we're going to include the young. Like we're just going to include everybody and it's going to be this holistic community effort. And it's not about like helping people find their place necessarily. It's all just like, okay, here we are.(...) This needs to be done. We're doing it together. We're just doing it. We're empowering those to do it. So there's this kind of physical, I don't know, like social structure, the work, whatever that is. And then you touched on the physical strength,

(...)

which I don't know how we modernize that for women.(...) I mean, we burn babies.

You know, I like just the physical.(...) I think we often try to, we want female strength to be male strength. If a guy can do that, then a woman can do that. And I just don't like that. I guess fine, whatever. But I just like, look, no, we have a physical strength that men can't even fathom.(...) Right? Like they don't know what that's like to carry a baby. And what's like, I remember telling Kelly after Hazel was born, even though it's like my third child, I breastfed him. It cannot explain how exhausting breastfeeding is. Like you wouldn't think it, but it just is physically draining. So anyway, so our bodies can do these amazing strong things that is a part of us. And just because like, right, I'm not pregnant or breastfeeding right now, like I still have that capability, right? And that's part of me, my womanhood.

You also probably still bleed every month, which is frankly offensive to me. Having like after popping out a kid, I'm like, we're just brainwashed into like submission and to just be like, oh, it's normal. We're not gonna talk about it. From ages 12 to 30, like below, like this is so stupid.

Every month, for the bad. I know, like I'm still like the first time I found out like a period was a thing. I was like, really? Like really that has to happen every month. And every month, like literally every month, I'm like, do we have to do this? Like why are we doing this?

I just got asked in the question for like a decade. And now I'm back on the question. I'm like, okay. Like you accepted it for a little bit. I did. And now I'm just like, listen, I want my body to be natural. I want my body to do what it's gonna do. But like, I'm sorry, if this happened to men, I don't, the workplace, everything would be different. The whole world would be different. Anyways, that was existential. Back to the lighting. That's fine. Because I'm still stuck by this. I am so shook. So then you bring it, so we just covered like work, labor. We covered like the physicality. And then to bring it all home, we've already, A, we've already created a better world in this matriarchal lion king world. To bring it home, you're like, oh, also we've got like the emotional, psychological challenge to fulfill your full potential. Like we can see that and challenge you to do that and do the work yourself.

(...) And that's what I think, I think oftentimes matriarchy, can be a like foil to patriarchy. And there's all this like power associated with that for better for worse.

(...)

So then

just don't like it when it's like, well, women have to have power too. Or like,

or that can happen like with careers. Like my husband has a career, I wanna have the same career. Or like, if he's getting this, how can I have that? I don't know, I just

I really like it when I, I can get myself out of that mindset and I can really think like, what's best for our family? Like what's going to help Eric be his best self? What's gonna help me be my best self? What's gonna help our kids grow? Like what's gonna make our home feel like a nurturing place? Like that's when I feel like I'm in the right mindset. And that's what I think matriarchy is about.

That is beautiful.

Yeah, I can thanks for that.(...) Yeah, I think we're gonna have to link the dance. Cause when you visualize it too, like with the music and the, Yes, I don't know what it is.

(...) Yeah, it's beautiful.

and especially like my mom even commented on this without me like prompting her or telling her any of these thoughts. She was like, it's so cool that Nala's there. And I was like, yes, there is something so powerful about young Nala being on the stage. Like, because Nala's like a kid at this point in the story. That's having that young girl with like the women in her life, like bringing her up. And for me as like a homesteading mom, that's a huge region. And then I want to be home with my kids and doing these homesteading things. It's not because we need, you know, freshly milled flour for bread or whatever. It's like also because Linden's like over there like helping me need it and like learning how to make bread with me. You know, like that's what it's really about. That's what the gardening is about. That's what like, and I have to tell myself this 50 times a day when a kid like steps on a plant that I'd spent 10 weeks growing or like, or you know, just like messes up my plans for the day because that happens all the time. But I'm like, well, this is what we're here for. Like we're here to learn together. Like that's the point. I'd love to act like I actually act like that all the time. I don't, but that's like,

(Both Laughing)

I tell myself I should be, you know.

Okay, I'm gonna circle back to you talking about the transformation of motherhood and

there any traits that you could describe that you've gained or that you've honed since becoming a mom?

(...)

Anchor.

(...)

(Both Laughing)

(...)

Rage.

(...)

So bad. Like I would love to be like gentleness patience.

(...)

But this really, okay, Kelly and I are in a book club together with other moms, which is such a gift. And someone said the other day, like, I didn't realize I was an angry person until I became a mom. And I was like, that, I just feel so seen and heard.

(...)

Because like, yeah, there's just nothing like mom rage either, right? There's nothing like mom love. There's nothing like mom's age, I don't know.

So like, I- Wait, that was it. That was it right there. That's the clip we need. There's nothing like mom love. There's nothing like mom rage.

Just how it is. So it's still something I'm like learning a lot about. Like, and that was something kind of like, but like day one of, I didn't know I would need to bond with this baby intensely. And here I am, like with all these feelings. So I'm like, I've had times where I'm like, I just had no idea. I could get so mad about something so little. Like I had no idea I could do that. So then, and then all of a sudden you're flustered and mad because you're mad. And that's, you know, like that happens.

(...)

So yeah, I would like to have something more poetic to say, I'm just gonna be honest.

(Laughing)

Is it anger? So anger, I think for me, lives pretty close to the skin and I can pop off pretty quickly and then settle quickly and move on.(...) I'm not proud of it. It's just kind of a reality.

(...)

The mom piece for me, it's like certain things I thought would really piss me off. I'm actually really chill about. So it's like, Oh really? That's great. The mom, no, no, but then there's the mom love and there's no anger. We just skip anger. We just go straight to mom rage.

(...)

(Laughing)

I thought it was well-acquainted with anger and then being a mom, it's just different. It's different.

It's just different.(...) Yeah, and I wonder if like, I would love it if in, you know, however many years when if someday my kids become mothers,

I wonder if there'll be more research because I feel like there must be some kind

different chemicals in our brain that change the level or just a different feeling

anger.

(...)

sometimes things that are legitimately upsetting, but at the same time,

(...)

it's so easy for me to step back from someone else's two year old and being like, oh yeah, they're being a little whatever.

Yes.

They do that. They lie.

(...)

They don't listen. Like what, you know, it's so easy to shrug that off when someone else's kid.

(...)

And then when it's yours, like getting that perspective has taken me some time. Especially because I didn't spend like any time around

small kids like at all. So like part of that, I just needed more time around Linden and Sigurd. And now by the time we get to Hazel, I'm a little more like, okay, I've seen this before.

hopefully, I mean, Hazel's not really an age where she can make me mad yet, but I'm hoping that

little more perspective.

think, see, this is something I would tell moms. Like, I really thought if you like made sure they left and made sure they had like good snacks with like some protein maybe,(...) your kids weren't gonna have tantrums. You said the right words. Like I had no idea that you, isn't that funny? Like it's such a joke. Like as a formula. No, like I really thought like when kids had tantrums, it was because like you hadn't managed something right. And I had no idea that it's like, that's just how, that's just something that happens, right? Like, and unfortunately I think this is a cultural thing when people see their kid having, another kid having a tantrum in a store, they're like, oh, the parents aren't, why is that kid having a tantrum here? And now I'm like, oh dude, sorry that happened to you right here right now. Cause obviously you can't do anything about it.

Like, I just couldn't help. Like it's like judgment on the parents or like I'll watch people like avert their gaze. Like don't look at the screaming kid. When it's like, can we just normalize this please? Like it just, yeah.

Right and I find like moms like, give me a look like it's all right. And I'm like, thanks. You see me. You see me, you know. Or they'll just like, give me a little smile and I'll be like, yeah. Or like kind of laugh with them. Like, yeah, look at this kid, isn't it ridiculous? Like I just don't have that perspective.(...) When I became a mom, I had no idea.

(...) So you weren't around little kids a lot. Did you always know you wanted to be a mom?

I think so. Like I definitely always saw it happening somewhere in my life for a long time. It was like, oh yeah, like that'll happen sometime after I get like established in a career.

that perspective changed in college when I realized like, when I was deciding if I wanted to pursue like a really hefty science career or not,(...) part of that piece was I think I just realized I would much rather be teaching. Like I think that just fits my personality and skill sets better. But another big part of that was like, I don't think I can be the mom. I want to be and build the community. I want to build and live the lifestyle I want to live and like keep working the way I'm working right now. Like I don't like this.

I think like one of the big things was(...) I was chatting with a professor

and talking to him about like him and his wife's work, life balance. And she also worked

like he had a job in like conserving water resources. She had a job protecting rivers, like very cool high level environmental work.(...) And he was talking about how they balance that. And he made the comment that if they only order out once a week, they're doing really great.

And I was like,

make an active point

to cook my own food and to not order out. I was like, I'm not going to do that.

know. That was a moment when I realized

type of career isn't going to work with the way I want to raise kids.

yet. So I went into teaching and I think I wanted to teach also because I liked being around kids, but you know, I wanted to be around like 12, 18 year olds.

(...)

(Laughing)

I definitely like never thought of having an elementary school teacher.

It's interesting, like so many of the things you're talking about right now, like your previous self before even meeting your husband, sounds like you were considering all these values and holding them close to you and deciding that that's what you wanted to pursue.

(...)

Yeah, but I also was like, if I never meet the right person,

I say the right person, I don't necessarily mean a person who's going to live in Marathon, Wisconsin and raise cows, right? Like it wasn't necessarily, I had to move on a farm, but I knew I wanted to like have quality time with the kids, not have my career be first, to make sure we had time together cooking and doing things together at home. Like that's what I mean by that.

(...)

I also knew I could be happy teaching if like that person ever came along.

(...)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you think, cause Linden was like, you experienced matrescence with Linden, but you were still teaching.

Do you think that that would have,

like your vision of homesteading and having your kids involved and all of that(...) would have been a lot harder had you not been working? And just thinking like you wanted to do this work with them together,(...) but that could have been so frustrating if you decided to stop working then and had this baby and then like couldn't get anything done. I don't know, it's just like amazing how life works out.

That like really summarizes how I felt though, because it was interesting. Yeah, letting go of the teaching thing because we were still in Madison, but I was like, we did have a community garden plot that I, and I was trying to preserve food. Like I tell people this all the time, like you think you need to get a homestead and like live out in the country to like do this stuff and you really don't.

we would grow some of our own food, we would get produce from the farmer's market and we would like do a lot of freezing and canning and our house in the middle of two busy streets. Like we would go to the park across the street, we would go hang out by the lake,(...) so we'd have that time outside.

(...)

We did the backyard chickens thing.

I was trying to balance a lot of that,(...) not even thinking of it as, and this was what made it so stressful for me I think, I wasn't thinking of that as like an extra thing. To me, it was always like, this is going to happen.

(...)

So I didn't realize I was putting a lot of myself trying to do that and trying to work part time because it was only part time, right?

I was like, I'm not trying to do this full, like I just didn't know how little,

(...)

you just can't, at least for me, I couldn't balance that much. Or

was balancing it, but I didn't think it would feel like that much, but it really did, yeah.(...) So, and even now, like I have to remind myself all the time that like homesteading, the work I'm doing is a part time job. Like, I am a stay at home mom and I get to do that work with my kids all the time. I kind of make a point of like trying not to do that type of stuff if they're

having their quiet time, I try to do other things, but

it's hard to remember that not everyone who sees it with their kids is also trying to balance all this other stuff with it. A friend's a farm. Yeah, exactly, like when I say it out loud, it's like, oh yeah, that does sound like a lot. Sounds like a lot. Yeah, but to me it was just always

I don't know, like this is just what I'm gonna do.

I never thought to, like again, like when I was making decisions, I never thought

you know, should I have this type of career or should I

to raise a lot of our own food for our family or should I try to spend a lot of time in the kitchen with my kids? It was always like, that is going to happen if I have children, like that is how I wanna raise them.(...) So, and luckily I married a man who really loves to eat and so that's good.

(...)

(Laughing)

It's

And Drew's beer.

Drew's beer. Really good beer. I think. I think just self-sustaining, basically.

Yeah, I mean the grain is like shipped to us. Okay, all right, all right. Like we're not, I don't know.(...) You can get, like I think you can also, it can be unhealthy to

to get too much until I have to do everything myself.(...) And like we're constantly reevaluating every season of life.

what we should really be doing or not. Like a big thing for us is I always thought we'd have a dairy cow or a dairy animal. Like that was like kind of the pinnacle of the Foamstead experience for me. And like, you know, kids and I would milk the cow together. We'd make cheese or whatever, but more

now I'm getting milk from another farmer who has grass-fed cows, which is awesome. And right now it's like, you know what? That's fine.

is still great. We're still making cheese. We don't have to go milk the cow, it's okay.(...) So.

You're making cheese. Sometimes, like. Okay, I want to do another episode with

you in like a few months and just dig into like what. I'm just dabbling with it. I don't know how to make a lot of cheeses or anything, but.

My husband did it a few times in our

our downtown Seattle apartment. Like had to go out of his way to get this raw milk and the rennet and whatever. And I was less than impressed with his results.(...) Mostly because he like, he like, he did it or whatever the heck, like the brie he was making, he made in my wine fridge and I was like, Oh my goodness. "Listen, buddy, all right."

Yeah. That's my wine fridge. Yeah, come on.

I have not tried anything like that. I've like made ricotta very easy. Oh,(...) amazing. You're like, like you make, you add an acid at curdles, you take out the curds. So yummy though. So good though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, basically I would like to have like a couple things like that and then like know how to make like a melting cheese like Colby or something like that. Cause that's what we use all the time.

Cool.

That'd be great.

Yeah,

wanna come visit. I'm just fascinated now. You're very welcome.

Yes. I love it.(...) Okay, so like I'm clocking you now, like you were talking about your ideals and everything. It's kind of amazing. Like you seem to be a unicorn. Like the more I'm chatting with you because the

more-- Linda would think that's the greatest thing ever. She loves unicorns. We'll make a clip. She's like, "My mom's a unicorn."

Yes, totally.

(...)

You just seem to have this sense of self and your values. And I just heard you say a few times, this is going to happen. This is what it's going to be. And this is before you met Eric, this is before your mom. You just have this really strong sense of like groundedness in the way that you wanna show up in the world. Which is incredible.

But I wanna say,

I feel like it's easy for me to show up and be like, "These are my values and I'm doing them, yay me." But like,

to like remind myself of those values, especially through some seasons of life. Like constantly, like why did I choose this?

summer, like the fall is always hard for me because it's super busy on the farm. It's like back to school with, you know, like homeschool stuff. We were like involved in a homeschool group that I teach science for. So there's a little extra work there. And then everybody else is going back to school. So it's like another school year that I'm not teaching. So the fall was hard.

even though I knew this is what I wanted to be doing, I didn't think, you know what I would love is 30 more hours of work every week. Like I didn't really want to go back part-time teaching or anything. But like, I didn't feel it. Like I wasn't feeling like this is great. I love my life right now for whatever reason.

so it's not like

living your values makes you feel great all the time.

I'm not happy all the time.

It's not easy all the time. But I kept coming back to like, no, this is what I want. And I'm going to keep pushing through it. And now I'm to like, you know, now it's winter, we're not nearly as busy.(...) I'm getting work done around the house that got pushed off for several months. And I'm like, okay, you know, like I feel more rejuvenated, but I don't want to make it sound like

(...)

I just followed my values and everything was great. Because I still mourn

a lot. Like I really love teaching. And I may or may not go back to it someday. I still don't know. Because I don't know what our family is going to need. But yeah,

(...)

so that's also a real trade off, I guess.

Well, you beat me to the punch because I was going to ask you for some trade offs or something.(...) Sorry.

(...)

No, it was perfect. Are there relationships or like cultural social shifts that have been more difficult for you or that you feel like you had to let go of?(...) Either in the dressing.

Because of motherhood or homesteading? Yes, both and either or.

Okay, well, since we were talking about homesteading, a big thing that I talked to Callie about a lot is like we're more geographically isolated than I would probably prefer. Like in my ideal world, we would live close to our community. But like most of our good friends are, like Callie are in like Wausau. Or like Eric has a really good friend from work who lives like an hour away

Right, so that's not an ideal.

I'm trying to think with motherhood.

well, obviously everyone's like relationship to work changes. So

I don't know, my workplace wasn't, my workplace was interesting because people were very much pro-motherhood. They like felt moms were an extremely important part of society. But because of that, me working as a mom wasn't valued. Oh. Which is a little weird. It was a weird situation.

My whole body just reacted negatively to that.

Yeah, it was unfortunate.

And I say,

(...)

a few individuals probably. I'm not saying like the whole,

and maybe that was something I sensed that I projected on people. I'm not sure. But that was how I felt. Like I felt like I needed to show up professionally the way I had before.

(...)

And I think it's important to,

like if you are in that sort of workplace where you do say you value mothers, like just from experiencing my workplace right now where they do say they value mothers and

just seem to be like congratulating me all the time like, oh, you have your kid with you at work today. Great job. Like, oh, you need to make a little more money to support your family. Like seriously,(...) honestly, like I feel so supported. So I do think you can say you support mothers, but unless you're like going out of your way truly to say,

don't know, thank you, good job. Like giving affirmation and- It should be like letting the kid be there. Yes, yes. Like supporting having that child there.

Because that's not professional. Yeah.

If you're not doing that, you're not really supporting them.

That's how I feel. Great, but that's like the matriarchy, right? That's what I was saying earlier

bring the kids. Like that's great. And a big part of it was like, I wanted,

don't know if I would have brought Linden if I had the chance. I think this was the case for you too, like wanting to have, like, I want to go work

But at the same time, learning to do those things together can be really beautiful.

(...)

And hearing people to say that's okay.

(...)

Yeah, like the workplace trusting women to do their job and do it the best for their family, which will look unique for each situation.

Yeah.

Rather than saying, here's my vision of, let me like love on moms, but the way I think it ought to

you know, saying, hey, what do you need? How can I best support you?

the more I think about it, I think I also, it was a lot of me putting on myself,

because I'm a mom now doesn't mean I don't show up just like I always did and I'm the same person, right? Like I had no concept of matrescence. I really wish I would have known that word. I'm really glad you guys are putting it out there.

so I think a lot of that was me too. Like I felt like I had to perform as a teacher the way I always had.

Based on what you were saying about your response to work, you say that you were expecting yourself to bounce back and how do you think about, how do you

feel about that phrase? So I didn't hear that phrase before.

to you in that episode, I have a big gut reaction against it because now I'm just like, no,

am a mom now.

I went through a huge life change.(...) In fact, this makes me think of one time I was at work, pretty newly postpartum after Sigurd.

(...)

I was sitting and having lunch with one of my coworkers and watching the kids at recess, like we did every other day of that school year. And I was just sitting there looking out and I was like, wow, it's all so different since I left. And she was like, actually, I think you're different. And she was 100% right, because there was literally zero, there was nothing different about those kids running around playing the same game they probably played all year. But I was like, oh yeah, like, yeah, I'm different now. I'm Sigurd's mom now.

Which was baby number two. Which is baby number two, but each baby, like I do think you,(...) the first time is like, you go through matrescence and that's a different change, but every time you're also like, now I'm this person's mother. Like, and that's another change.

yeah, I used to have a sense of like, I wanted to go back or whatever. And I'm like, I don't wanna be the same person. Like, I'm really glad I'm not the same person.

(...)

And obviously

I don't know, when anyone has a life-changing experience, we're not like, well, that was great, but when are you gonna be the person you were before that?(...) You study abroad, right? Like that changes your life, but you tell people about it and they're not like, but when are you gonna be like, it's the real Emily.

no, like I'm just like transformed. So yeah, so that concept is really problematic. I didn't have an understanding of that, I think at the time and I wasn't ready to be transformed

(...)

by motherhood, I think. Right, that was very focused on like, still balancing all the things, still balancing the job and still balancing the home life and the homesteading interests and my other interests or whatever, but

I think like, instead of bouncing back, it's more like, I wanna dive in. Like, I don't wanna bounce back to where I was, I wanna like dive into this like new phase of life with this new person in it.

I keep thinking like, dig deeper, similar, like same thing, for some reason, like going down, going deep, like, sussing out the core of the situation is my fault.

Especially when you were talking about like, maybe bouncing back is a useful phrase if you're looking at someone who's very freshly postpartum(...) and you can, like, I think you can ask like, has she

from that physical event from some?

gonna like start thinking like, well, has she like dove into this, right? Like if I'm checking on a friend at when she's postpartum, it's like, has

Embraced this. Yes, like maybe her house is a total mess and she still has some like pelvic floor issues, like maybe a lot of pelvic floor issues or maybe this or maybe that, or maybe like has an issue with the older kid or whatever.

(...) But like,

when I see a woman in that situation, often I'm like, well, but she's really dove into this. Like she's holding that baby and she loves that baby. Great.(...) That's such a good reframe.

Like I love that.

It's so much better than like, has she bounced back?

Yes, like is she here for it? Is she present? Is she like getting your hands dirty, like on purpose?

Is she sobbing? Really?

(...)

Yeah. Like what kind of, or even like what kind of sobbing is that? Is that a sobbing? Like she knows I'm here for her? Is that a like actual desperation, right? Like that's something to really look for.

I would want someone to look out for me that way but not ask me if I would bounce back because that's helpful. Yeah.

(...)

I want to quick, I'm just like thinking about the fact that you were ice skating before this. You given your, like you fully dove in, dive 10?

I don't know. I don't know. In the deep end. She's in the deep end. You're in the deep end.

You embraced motherhood. Like you love on those children and your husband in this life at home.(...) So I think I just want to know, especially for listeners who don't know you as well, like how do you feel like you're staying true to yourself, even though that self is new and different? Yeah.

Well, motherhood really helped me.

I'm just like so interested in so many things. And I always had so many ideas for things I could do in life outside of a, I don't know, just whatever. It just really helped me focus. And it also helped me understand like what it actually means to prioritize things. Like I had heard like, you make time for the things you prioritize, but I always had my checklist. I was always organized, but I never like sat down and was like, and I always thought like family is important to me. Eric's important to me. But motherhood made me go like, okay, like if Eric is important to me, that means I need to do certain things to like make sure I'm building my relationship with him.

relationship with my kids is important to me, like what does that, so it really helped me. And then when it came to things, that's like, well, I don't have time to just pursue whatever I'm interested in anymore. So now the question is more like, well, what are, I think it's important for me to have time to rest and rejuvenate. So what activities are actually important?

(...)

And I ended up settling, like one of those things was something I hardly even did before I had kids. And then I ended up making time for because I realized actually this is really important to me, which I think is unusual.

You know, usually you hear moms about like making time for this thing they used to love and spent a bunch of time doing, and now they just have a little, but for me it was

I love the natural world.(...) And nature journaling was something I always enjoyed doing. I shared it with my students, like Naomi, your sister had to keep a nature journal.

(...)

Yes, I think mom made us do that also.

She can tell you all about it. It's different points. Yeah, it's a very classical school thing. But anyway,

so, but then I was like,

like this is gonna rejuvenate me as a mom and a teacher. So like when we lived in Madison, I started taking like, I think an hour every Sunday to go nature journaling, and I still do that now.(...) And then like at this phase, I can like spend time like doing some, like I enjoy like just trying birds or just, Kelly knows this.(...) Like I just, I really enjoy drawing or painting

from the natural world. Like now I can make time for that every day, even if I can't like go on a walk. But that was something I didn't know was important to me until I had to like, I had such limited time. And I was like, if I'm gonna make time for something, like what is it gonna be? You know, so.

Kind of the create the constraints there, bread, deeper curiosity or creativity.

Yeah, yeah, it did. Huh, cool. And it also helped me like,

before it was also like, if I had spare time, I wanted to like work towards some goal, but like nature generally isn't something you can like make a career out of or like start an Etsy shop for or whatever. And it was really helpful for me to let go of that kind of mindset and literally just do something because I enjoyed it. Like, I don't know if I knew how to do that since I was like in middle school without having some kind of like external goal. You know, I had like other hobbies, but they're always like

involved or like, like, you know, for like music, like there was this performance we're working toward or whatever, it's so nice to just be like, I'm just gonna go draw this bird because it's beautiful. And I like it. I'm not even good at drawing it, but I just want to go draw it, you know?

You're probably gonna draw him out, bud.

Yeah. I'm not starting an Etsy shop any time soon. Right.

(...)

I think I'm gonna be doing some self-examination surrounding this topic. I know. Roughly until Sunday at least.

So really trying to think what I'm doing for--

Okay, but this was, part of the reason that got me on this was one of the people I taught with, who I would almost consider like the matriarchal teacher,(...) was like really encouraged us to spend time resting on Sunday. She was like, don't work on Sunday. And I didn't really take that seriously for a while. But she kept saying, she was like, you don't just like stop working. Like if you have, she would always say, like if you had tickets to the Packers game,

(...)

Sunday's out, you wouldn't plan anything on Sunday. So she's like, imagine you have tickets to the Packers game on Sunday.

so like you don't just say I'm not working on Sunday. You say, I'm gonna go nature journaling. And I only did it for an hour. I didn't do it all day, because obviously I had a baby. But like, I was like, okay, for this hour, like that's just it. That's what's scheduled during that time. I'm just, it doesn't matter what else needs to get done. Obviously I'm matriarchal, I had Linden, but like, yeah.

(...) (Laughing)

And I would go like probably when she was, like when I was breastfeeding, if she, like she didn't take a bottle well. So I'd probably go when she was napping or something, you know, but yeah.

I love that.

What makes you feel beautiful? Or if that's too hard to answer, what makes you feel valued as a woman?

(...)

Or mother or wife?

Probably Eric, that's kind of old fashioned, but being around Eric really makes me feel beautiful. Cool, that's so cute. I don't know.

(...)

(Laughing)

Well you know what Emily's husband said? He said sex, so.

(Laughing)

To the beautiful one?

(...) You know he wants to value, yeah.

(...)

Which is, yeah. You know, I don't wanna speak for Eric, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said that.

(Laughing)

I'm like, yeah, no one here is surprised, yeah.

(...)

(Laughing)

(...)

Well, thank you for just being such an amazing role model in my life. I've said that you two met.

Me too.

Yeah, I feel like we could talk for like hours next time Emily comes to us.

Yeah, I really think Fall Fest is gonna be lit.

(...) Can we do Spring Fest though? Just cause that's sooner, you know? Oh that's true.

I keep telling Kelly, like you know how you guys have the tradition of lighting the candles on the Christmas tree and having people over.

(...)

I was like, I wanna do that for Easter. I was like, I wanna take one of our little fruit trees outside that are only like 10 feet tall and like put some like dorky paper decorations on it. Like sit around this tree and sing songs. This is like a vision I have, it might happen this

Well thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me. This was beautiful.

(...)