Episode 20: The One for the Mom Seeking Resilience & Joy with Elise Hoogendyk

Show Notes In this heartfelt episode, Cally and Emily welcome Elise Hoogendyke, a mother of four whose story spans decades and embodies two profound journeys of matrescence. Married at 19 against everyone's expectations, Elise's first transformation began with her oldest children, now 23 and 20. Years later, she experienced a second matrescence with her younger children, now 6 and 4, with her youngest facing extraordinary medical challenges including heart surgery and feeding difficulties. Through hyperemesis pregnancies, NICU stays, and learning to tube-feed her son, Elise's journey showcases the incredible resilience of mothers. Her story beautifully illustrates how motherhood can both shatter us and forge us into something entirely new. This episode offers powerful insights for mothers at any stage and anyone seeking to understand how we can find profound joy even in our most difficult seasons.

Main Topics & Discussion

Finding Your Path:  Elise's motherhood journey began when she married at 19 – a decision that went against her family's expectations and her own previous plans. As a student valued for her academic potential, choosing early motherhood left her without support from friends or family who understood her choice. Through creating community with mothers who validated her decisions, Elise eventually found her footing and built confidence in her path, teaching an invaluable lesson about trusting yourself even when your choices don't align with cultural norms.

A Second Matrescence: After raising two children into their teenage years, Elise experienced what she describes as a complete "second matrescence" with her younger children. The birth of her son Remy, who was born with Down syndrome, FPIES, a collapsed lung, and a heart condition, transformed her understanding of motherhood. Through NICU stays, learning to tube-feed, and countless medical appointments, Elise discovered a new dimension of maternal strength. The lesson: every milestone is a precious gift, and despite extraordinary challenges, ultimately, she experienced a deeper joy than she had ever known before.

Cultivating Marriage: Throughout Elise's two-decade marriage and four children, her relationship has remained a cornerstone of stability while continuously growing stronger. Elise shares practical insights about staying connected. During their son's medical journey, they became even closer when many couples would have fallen apart. Their story shows how a strong marriage isn't about perfection but about creating rituals of conn

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Well, anyways, this is Elise.

(...)

Good to meet you, Elise.

Hi, you too, Emily. Thanks for everything. Can you guys hear me and everything?

It's great.

Okay, good.

Well, thanks for being here.

I'm excited. No problem. I'm excited too. It's been interesting because I haven't listened to all the one, you know, the previous podcast, but even just listening to the ones I have, like brings back so many memories of early motherhood.

I can just go back there. Like it happened yesterday.

(...)

So I don't want to, I don't want to spoil your whole story. Okay. I'm so fascinated to hear about that because you're sort of a unique situation with your stages of motherhood.(...) So can you just fill us in, like, you know, your lifestyle, just how many kids you have, just a quick background.

(...)

Okay, so I have four kids. One is 23 and married. His wife is about to have a baby any day now.

they've asked me to be at the birth. So I'm like,

(...)

so,

(...)

long, long ago I did doula training and was a doula for a while. So they were like, do you just want to be our doula?

(...)

So that's a big thing. Like it's like at night, I'm not sleeping that much because I'm just like, okay, this is going to happen.

(...)

So that's number one Jude. And then as May is 20 and she's still at home, she'll head off to college next year. And then I've got Jane who's six and Remy who's four. I've been married for 25 years and I got married when I was 19.

(...)

Yeah. So, and had a baby 10 months later.

and that was someone who said, I will never get married and I'll never have kids. No,

(...)

that was me. I was going to get married.

Like at all. You were not married. You're like marriage is not for me.

No, I didn't. I never did the, that my wedding's going to be like this. Then I'm going to have this many kids. And I wanted to actually, I wasn't even Catholic, but I wanted to go to India and work with mother Teresa.

how did we get to that from that to your 19 and married? Because it's not that long ago. I mean, it was, that's very young to be married.

Yeah, it was really young and I looked even younger. So it was really, I mean, to walk around pregnant was actually embarrassing. Just the looks that I got and the

way I was treated. But

so one of my best friends, I'd met him when I was 14.

We had been friends for a long time and I was always like the first time I met him, I told my sister, I was like, I would marry him if I was going to get married. But

was older, you know, a couple of years older, he was going to college.

And when I graduated from high school, he was like,

I'm in love with you.(...) So we were like, well, we'll get married someday, but I'm headed off to college. And he was headed off to Israel to study for three months.

and my parents were like, there's no way you're getting married till you're done with college.

all my friends said they would disown me if I got married.

we were the smart girls, you know, like, we had PhD plans and, you know, all of that. So

be just because after like a year of a long distance relationship, we were just like, you know, we've, I mean, our whole relationship was writing letters. And we were just like, we're just going to get married. And(...) we did it. So and the thought was, I've done a year of college, but I don't, I'm not interested in what I'm studying. Whereas like he had three years of college and wasn't interested in what he was studying. So I was like, I'll work while you finish and then you work

I go back to school.

that was kind of the plan.

I mean, we had like a box, like a giant box of letters we had written to each other. Wow.(...) Yeah.

I feel like at this point, that's like grandparent level. Like it's, it's so rare that you were in a situation.

(...)

Yeah. That was

really rare.

(...)

And even our kids have said,

it's just really hard for them, like thinking about

relationships and finding someone because they're like, your story is so uncommon. You know, it's so weird.

like, you're so in love. You know, what if we can't find someone like that? Or, you know, whatever. Now they were young during our hardest times, because I would say right around like seven years was a really, really hard time.

Just because

change, you know,

I thought I'll have a kid and then even then I'll still go back to school and just finding out what kind of a mother I was, was kind of a surprise to me.

(...)

It

I don't want people watching my kids and I don't want to

be breastfeeding or, you know, just things like that. I didn't know

strong those things would be. So

was just a lot of

changes.

(...)

you think about that time, was there something specific or like a handful of things that jump out at you as just totally shaking you to your core?

there were two things that shook me to my core. And that was the first one was getting pregnant, actually,

(...)

um, shook them to my core. That was not planned at all.

was so far from my plan. And then, and even so, like, I think there was a part of me that really wanted it, but I knew there would be no like family support or excitement.

So that was,

(...)

you know, it was just like something

(...)

I had to kind of like keep quietly in for a while and figure out like, how are we going to tell people? And

You know, like, I think my mom started crying and not for joy.(...)

And were you near family at this time? Like

support from them possible outside of the hardship?

we were in Holland, Michigan, which is about three hours from Chicago where the rest of my family was.

and then, um, my husband's family was about an hour away.

I remember like my mom came up a month before my son was born and like, we did some shopping and,

(...)

you know, just like, I had no idea what I was doing. She's like, you'll need this and you'll need that.(...) Um, but it was definitely like, and your life is over.

(...)

Wow.

So yeah, this is so

like, what a wild time. Cause we're thinking, if I'm thinking about matresins and how that process of just becoming a mother for most women can change your values or your expectations of how you thought your life would live or what kind of mom you'd be, your relationships with your spouse, with your friends, you kind of checked all of those boxes in terms of huge change just by getting married. What you did, right? You already had been barked on(...) a lot of difficult transition.

That's crazy.

Yeah. It was, it was pretty, pretty crazy. And then on top of that, it turns out like I'm one of those people that get, um, hyperamesis when I'm pregnant.

I don't know that what is that?

So, so it's not like to a medical level,

you throw up like 20 times a day and yeah, do anything

all your pregnancies or that first one?

So for the first two, it ended around like four months. Um, and then, I

mean, some people the whole time. Yeah.

Well, for my third one, it was the whole time. And so that was like a new level

yeah, like I just remember like,

because I would get a really horrible migraine.

I'd be in the bathroom, like throwing up and have this migraine. And I just remember like laying on the floor and my husband just like coming in and like picking me up, you know, getting me back to my bed.

(...)

So yeah,

is, is so many, so many layers for me, but thankfully the pregnancy part is

months. So that's it.

Still long time in your end. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. So

had Jude, you had that horrible pregnancy and it was like accidental. Then was it a choice to have Esme?

(...)

Yes.

So I knew after we had one that I never was, I didn't want like just one child, if that makes sense. So I just, I grew up with three siblings and my sister was my best friend.

I just, you know, it was like, well, we're doing this, but I also knew already, like I get really sick and I want to go back to college

and I don't want to homeschool.

so

when Jude was two, I got pregnant(...) really sick and I did, you know, four months of morning sickness and then I lost that baby.

So then after that,

I realized

cause you know, I went from a place like I'm 19 and I'm pregnant and I

even have to try to get pregnant.(...) And then I'm pregnant again.

this is just what happened, you know, this is just my life. And then losing that one, I realized like, no, life is a gift and nothing is a guarantee.

and then, you know, they were like, you need to get your health back and that kind of thing. But once I was healthy and strong, um, six months later, then I told my husband, I was like, I really just want to have a girl.

So, and you did, I did.

but then there was the decision.

I think even for him, like it just really shook him to see how sick I would get.

I love running and I love hiking and I will chop wood and we'd go camp it, you know, so it's like for him to see me completely debilitated,

you know, it was like,

I think we're done.

(...)

so it, it took me a really long time, but as the older kids got older and

my faith grew and my understanding of

and how precious it is and what a gift motherhood is and coming to a place where I was surrounded by people who valued motherhood.

and a husband who like loves kids so much.

(...)

It just, it was like I had the support I needed to say, let's try again.

So we did.

(...)

that's a journey. I don't even know if we've gotten to the part where you said it was just really hard at year seven, but I'm curious,

you mentioned

sounds like there was not a lot of support familiarly or from friends even at the time when you were telling people you were pregnant and wondering if that ever shifted or, you know, where you found support.

So that's actually something I wrote down because it's a really important part of me becoming who I was.

we actually, so we moved from

the Midwest out to Canada and then to Washington state.

And when I was in Canada, I surrounded myself with like midwives and doulas and learned how to be a doula. That was incredible.

And then,

my kids would have been,

think Esme would have been one and a half and June would have been five. And my husband was finishing his master's degree because I had decided I don't want to go back to school yet. I,

build his career and stuff, we thought it'd be better. Like you go a little further.

so we were living in Bellingham, Washington and yeah. So when we were there initially, it was really hard because we were living on Western college campus.

So that was weird because we're on this huge college campus, like an apartment right off of it. There are no kids, you know, nobody in those apartments has kids.

And my husband's actually driving up to Canada for school and I'm working, he's working, but we're never having anyone else watch the kids. Like we're just tag teaming. So this was year seven. This was the hard year.

Um, and we have one car

um,

I would get on the bus and go downtown Bellingham, take the kids to the library and do all this stuff. Well, Esme was still breastfeeding

and she was a pretty aggressive breastfeeder. What does that even mean? I told you more. You know, when she wanted it, she wanted it and there was no putting her off. And so I'd be on a bus just like crammed with college girls and guys, I'd be sitting there breastfeeding and the dirty looks

cause what I was thinking, like, when was a time that like society did not support me? I'm like, I would think of that. Wow. Like just how, and I was thinking like, you know, everyone here is going to be crunchy granola.

Yeah. Especially Bellingham.

Like, right.

(...)

But I think it was just the college students. And then, so I had sent Jude to public school kindergarten and that was a total fail.

So I'm like, okay, I guess I'm going to homeschool.(...) And I found, you never would, though I never would.

Were you homeschooled?

Yes. Part of the time. Like I, you know, I had done everything like homeschool, public school, private school, boarding school, like boarding school. And I was like, homeschool is out.

(...) Cause your parents were missionaries, right? Yes.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Okay.

I was like, well, if I'm going to homeschool, we need to do social stuff because that's the thing for me. Like,

if you're going to homeschool, that means you're just

learning some stuff at home, but you're out doing stuff a lot.

And, um, at the time I was very,

not living any kind of faith or anything. And I really did not want to be stuck in like a religion based homeschool bubble.

I just found

random group of women. I actually met them on the library lawn there. A lady was like breastfeeding her child and

my person, we

started talking and like her son who was older than my son started

playing chess with him or, you know, something like that.

she just gave me her phone number and she's like, we have a Wednesday park day. And those were my people for the next 10 years. So, and what was amazing is all the women in that group had, they were 10 to 15 years older than me.

So they had had careers, they had had travel, you know, they had had it all. And all of them said, we wish we would have started motherhood younger. So that really

to me, like they valued my choices so much

and they valued what I was doing and what I had to bring to the group.

know, they just liked everything about me and what I was doing and how I was raising my kids. And so I felt, you know, it's like by the time we moved back to the Midwest 10 years later, I felt really great about the choices that I had made.

So that was, I mean, that's the happy part of this story is like we did find our place.

you have any home friends your age or were they all? They

were all older because,(...)

the, you know, the friends that I had in high school or my year of college, like none of them

I mean, they're having kids now, like

but they did, I mean, they were intellectuals, they got their PhDs, they got, you

a very different path.

were you able to keep in touch with any of them or most of them? What did that look like for you?

there were a lot of people that I fell out of touch with during that time we were in Bellingham, kind of like I got married and, you know, a lot of my friends didn't understand that. So I was like, okay, friends didn't understand that choice

my family didn't understand it completely.

so I think that's why we had to get some distance and kind of figure out who we were. And then I found a lot of people,

as time went by would reach out

I have a friend, a Danish friend who,

I had gotten to know in Africa when I was growing up. And even just a few years ago, she got in touch and we FaceTimed and everything. So I feel like

now any of those people I have an amazing time with,

know, or have connected with, it just took that time of

out.

I don't know if it was the era too,

women, I mean, my parents were both feminists and

like it was always very clear. Like what was great about me was my brain. It was not my uterus.(...) You know,

(...)

that is what's awesome about you. Okay.

(...)

Which what a gift for some women or, you know, how many women maybe would benefit from that perspective? You don't get it in today's world. However, there's a flip side.

Yes. And I love the way I was raised. Like I love it that my dad was having to memorize Shakespeare at age five.

love it all,

but I feel like now there's

maybe I'm wrong or have a rosy view of things or something, but I feel like I see young people making all different kinds of choices and it's not so much like this is the one choice that you're supposed to make

It just seems like there's a little bit more openness for saying, oh yeah, maybe you should take a gap year or

you should go travel or maybe you want to learn a trade. You know, like I just don't feel like there were discussions like that happening 25 years ago.

(...)

I mean, I'm thinking about myself in high school. Like if one of my friends who I was sure was going to go, you know, get their masters and get like, like at this point, I'm the least educated of my high school friends.

Okay.

With a four year degree.

I would have been judgmental. Like if they suddenly got married, I would have freaked out.

I would have judged myself. I mean, I always think like if that was my kids, I would have really struggled.

Okay.

But not now. Right. And I'm curious, like what there must have been some sort of presence of self that was strong enough to

you take the path of most resistance. I don't know.

(...)

I think

because I was thinking about this, you know, just thinking about like, why did I make the choices I made? Why did I have the strength to go against,

what everybody thought I should do?

first of all, I think because I had never really had a home, like we were always moving around.

I think when I found somebody who was home to me and then went on to have children who became home and wherever we lived, they were with me, you know, like, I think for me, it was like, I've never had a home. I've never felt at home anywhere. And now when I'm with these people, I have a home.

So that, I mean, that's one thing I think about

because my husband represented,

you know, kind of the first person that I felt like

comfortable with all the time.

I just, I didn't have a clear enough life plan to do anything else. There was nothing better.(...) Like I had gone to study linguistics for a year downtown Chicago and I was like, I don't like living in the big city right now.

I don't really, I'm not that interested in my classes.

(...)

So I was like, I'll try something new.

Wow.

(...)

I love that. I'll try something new.

(...)

It was very new.

(...)

So when you're talking about having your husband as your home, which is so beautiful and your kids,(...) how during that time are you,(...) or did you, were you unable to like stay connected to yourself or figure out what made you,

what defined your personhood and your identities?

I think that was the struggle that I went through kind of like those 10 years when we were away. And it was, it was pretty significant. And there were times where,

even like maybe at the hardest times, like that year seven when we weren't really seeing each other much because of how busy we were. And

one of my kids was just at a really intense age.

You know, I would have thoughts of like,

I should just find a different life, you know, that kind of thing. But

think for me,

I was an avid reader. Like I would, I would read when I was breastfeeding. I would read when I was cooking. Like I just always had a book.

audio books.

And then the other thing I would say would be walking, running and hiking. Like for me, so at one point we rented a little house. It's like at the base of Chuck and up mountain. I don't know if you, yeah. So as, so here's our little house, it's kind of like in the middle of nowhere. And then there's this

steep, like huge hiking path, like one of the steepest hiking paths in the area. And my husband would get home from work. And if it was a hard day, I'd just be like, Hey, bye.(...) And I was just hike up there, you know, as fast as I could, as far as I could, and just

you know, think like, who am I? What am I? You know, where am I going?(...) What's my plan?

And then one thing that also unfolded during that time was I

working for a company from home.

know for my parents, it was a really big deal for them because they knew my boss. And he said to them, he's like, yeah, this, you know, lady studying, you know, getting her PhD in linguistics, like we tried her,(...) and she didn't really wasn't able to do the training.

But Melissa's doing fine, you know, so I started doing that, it was actually

Caledon Bible translation. So I didn't have to learn Caledon, but I had to learn,

how to use their,

their method or whatever for editing. And I think for my parents, they were like, okay, she has a real job.(...) And then for myself,

was making good money.

(...)

So that my husband was like, do whatever you want with it. I don't care, you know, it's like,

that's your thing. And so I think that was a real shift, like having a job that my family thought was prestigious, that I could do from home,(...)

now, like I struggle with the fact that for the past seven years, I haven't made an income, like I loved, I always loved having money that I could kind of choose what to do with it, or like buy a present for someone in the family that was really for me. Like I really struggled, like around Christmas, I'm like, I want my own money to buy Isaiah something.

(...)

so yeah, that was a big piece of it too, just like having something that I could succeed at.

know, still, still mother in a way that I felt good about,

that's what I discovered about myself is just that I'm a hundred percent hands on.

I think in one of the other podcasts, you guys were talking about like fierce mothering.(...) And that, you know, that's like where all my fears have come.

(...)

Did you feel that right away when Jude

did it develop?

It was right away. It was absolutely right away.

When you were doing the Bible translation, had you, like you mentioned that you were very anti-religious,

religion, had you

a faith that you were

into at that point? Or was it just a job that was interesting?

It was just a job that was interesting. And in fact, I'd always have to read like the English,

(...)

you know, so I have like,

you know, it's like you have the four squares on the screen and you have the Chaldean and then you have, I think the Arabic and this and then the English.(...) And so I'd be reading through the English and I'm like, all this stuff makes me so mad.

(...)

You know, cause I grew up hearing it all. And I just, at the time, like I really just like turned my stomach, some of it, I was just like, I don't get it.(...) But, you know, that was just where I was at at the time.

(...)

And this was after the doula work? The doula work came before?

Yes.

So that was another thing that you seemingly really at a young age, because you were so young when you would have been in Canada. Yeah. But to this learning, this teaching, this community.

(...) Yes. And that was amazing. And I had done several births and then one of the births I was at, I actually had to leave. I didn't know I was pregnant with Esme yet.

(...)

And I had to leave because I got really sick. And so when I got pregnant with her, I was like, okay, you know, that, you know, probably, and in fact, my midwife said, you can't do all night births or you could lose another baby.

So, you know, again, that changed. But at the same time, like, I had a lot of confidence from the births that I had attended. And then so my first was born in the hospital, but Esme was born at home.

And a friend of mine who, and we're actually back in Chicago when Esme was born.

And a friend that I did doula training with was in New York. And I called her when I went into labor with Esme. She got into a plane and she caught,

Esme when she was born.

Oh my God. That's so wild. Wow.

That's so cool.

So, and I had known it. She's just like, just, just in case, just call me, you know, when you go into labor.

So yeah, that was so cool. And my, my first labor had been like two and a half hours. And then with Esme, it was a lot more gentle and slow.

So she, I'm sorry, I just heard what you processing that still too.

(...)

For your first birth.

(...)

Yes.

bad. Was it a well birth? Were you okay?

(...)

Okay.

I mean, I would, it was safe. You know, it was fine, but I was actually two weeks overdue and scheduled to be induced that morning and my water broke.

mean two and a half hours from that moment. So when the contractions started, like there was nothing in between contractions. It was just

right there. And then he came and I remember, so I tend to handle pain like by getting really quiet.(...) And I remember after my son was born,(...) my husband was like, that wasn't so bad.

(...)

And I just looked at him and I was like,

(...)

if getting stabbed repeatedly with a knife and run over by a truck.

(...)

Everyone listening to this is just cringing right now. You know what not to say.

(...)

So the good part is that when I was becoming a doula, I was reading all these books, you know, like, I don't know if you guys have read like spiritual midwifery or I'm a guest. Okay.

my husband just like sit there reading it. This is so cool. You know, like he got so into the doula stuff. And then my labor with Esme was 12 hours and it was like really gentle.

But I had read so much and I had visualized so much.(...) So I would visualize, you know, what that birth was going to be like. And

really was. It was what in my head I kept visually because I kept hearing like, just picture things going really well, things being really peaceful.

was and that's not to say it wasn't hard or painful or you know, you're still going to reach transition and throw up and say, I can't do this anymore.

But I could be present. You know, I could realize, okay, this is what's happening and I'm a part of it

and I'm gonna.

So yeah.

So this is the big question that I think Emily and I both have for you after hearing your story. Do you feel like matrescence happened for you like the one time or was there like the second matrescence years and years and years later when you had your next two kids?

(...)

Well, I was really stuck on, you have a four year old, right? Yeah, that's like, okay, you're about to be a girl. A few years, you know, or like 10 years between kids. Do we do matrescence all over again?

Right. Well, that's actually, that's what I was thinking about a lot. So I would say that I did have two matrescence.(...) So first I'd say my first one took, I'd say it took me about five years to adjust to motherhood, you know, so it's like a long one.(...) And then what's interesting is the second time it was a second,(...) it was a second matrescence because the first one, you know, the term that everybody hates and probably doesn't, you know, you guys were saying bounce back.(...) I did with the first two.

(...) So speaking physically, so you speaking like, which physically,

know, probably down the line, maybe mentally, physically, emotionally,

I realized I didn't bounce back as fast as I thought I had. But in terms of like,

wearing my normal jeans a week later, not having varicose veins, a week. Yes,(...) yes.

(...)

know, not having anything, no stretch marks, no varicose veins,

And then not only that, but

Esme was born,

I was like cooking dinner for everybody three days later.

Oh my gosh. Wow. So not like,

you know, so I always thought like, well, I paid during pregnancy, but afterward, everything's fine.

But that's not the case

So with Jane,

don't know how this is even possible, but while not being able to eat much or throwing up constantly, I gained a huge amount of weight. And I think it's because I couldn't be active.

and I was borderline diabetic during pregnancy. So

and it didn't, the weight didn't come off by itself at all.

took well over a year.

But the biggest thing was that right after she was born, I got a blood clot.

(...)

So yeah, which I didn't even know, I don't know how in all my doula studies or whatever, I hadn't heard much about blood clots.

So the night after she was born, I was laying in bed nursing her and I had just like this extreme pain in my leg.

I did not have a very good midwife for that birth. Like that was my one kind of like negative birth experience.(...) And so I had called my midwife and she was like, oh, well, you know, it's probably fine. Maybe just an external vein.

And so I was just limping around for a week. And my mother, yes,(...) my mother in law saw me and she's like, you could have a blood clot.

And then it was like,

to the emergency room,

immediately on injections for blood clotting, you know, like,

and on top of that,

I had so she had been on my tailbone. So my tailbone was really kicked out and twisted. So that took a year of chiropractor, you know, so it's just like,

was just a hot mess.

(...)

it was such a long journey back

the idea of bouncing back would be the furthest thing from my mind.(...)

one thing I, I felt after that year that I had learned in that year was that you can be way out of health and you can be

overweight and all that. And if you do tiny steps, you can get well again,

So I learned really just not to judge other people

was one of the things. And I also learned that going on a walk for five minutes is a hundred percent more than not going on a walk at all. Like I always been like, I'm going to go on a five mile run, you know, that kind of thing. And in so learning, like,

I'm going to take a five minute walk was enough, you know, for that day or that time. And then I could get where I was going, but the steps were going to have to be so careful and so tiny.

And I was going to have to not care what people thought of me for a while.

(...) That would be a tough lesson to learn and tough pillow swap. After having done it multiple times before and have it be so different. Do you have other kind of lifelines that you can think of during that time that really helped you?

So when I think of

that period, like having Jane and having Remy,

there weren't any lifelines other than my faith, which by then was really strong because that's what keeps you alive. So that was the only lifeline. You know,

I had the blood clot, it was really scary because I'm looking at this brand new baby, you know, that I'm the one feeding, I'm the one taking care of and feeling like

I could die, you know, that.(...) And I remember the first night home from the hospital, I'm like, okay, we've started the injections, but this is, you know, there's still like, if you feel this, and if you feel this, come back immediately.

(...)

So I just, I actually had

book of Psalms and I had someone before they even knew about the blood clot, about two days before, had given me this icon of Mary and it was our lady of protection, who I had never heard of. And so she's holding a mantle and I just would hold, I would sleep with that

and have the Psalms near me.

And I felt so protected and so safe. So that at that time, that was my lifeline, I would say.

Wow. Well, and it, how old are Jude and Esme at this time?

So Jude would have been, Esme was 14, Jude was 16 when Jane was born.

So I'm a 16 year old, a 14 year old.

have it. You always have difficult pregnancies. You have Jane. How many years between Jane and your

Remy?

almost exactly two years apart.(...) So he came a week before they would have been two years apart. And with him, honestly, so the other really interesting part of this is women in my family tend to be done with their fertility by age 38.

Oh my goodness.

So I was in perimenopause when I got pregnant with Jane. Hello with Jane. Yes.

when I got pregnant with Remy, we're like on a timeline. Right.(...) Wow. So it was very intentional. I mean, I was like, I don't want Jane to be alone.

we've got, you know, maybe one more.

I was going to ask what drove you to have a second pregnancy. Yeah. Perimenopause after the blood clot situation.

Yes.

thinking that would have been maybe I got pregnant, got pregnant with Remy

January.

And then my oldest moved back in, in March. And that's when all the COVID stuff was happening.

at the last part of that pregnancy, I went on blood thinners. So I had really wanted to have a home birth because that was the time when like sometimes babies were being separated from parents because of COVID.

And you don't separate me from my baby. So

I was going to have a home birth. And then at the end of my pregnancy, I realized that I was probably tending toward blood clots. And so I made the decision to go on blood thinners, which means you have a hospital birth.

Oh, wow.

So I'm thinking like, you know, how do we plan this so that we're never separated from him or we didn't know if it was a boy or girl.

And so I went into labor a week and a half early.(...) And it was a really gentle labor. Like

would every, you know, it was like four o'clock in the afternoon and I'd squat every time I had a contraction. And then

like maybe around midnight, I laid down and took a nap and then I woke up and I was like, I'm going to go out in the birthing ball. And immediately it was like, okay, I was sleeping because I was in transition and this baby is coming.

Oh my goodness. So we did the like movie drive where you're like the lady's breathing,(...) you

know, like could you even buckle or were you like doing the backwards?

No, I was just, I was just kind of like to the side. And so

don't even know where we're going. Cause we've never been to the birthing center at Aspirus. Oh, this is like, so we're like driving around the hospital and finding my husband's like, there it is. So he lets me out and I go

to the elevator. I realized if I get on the elevator, I'm going to have the baby there. So I'm just going to stand here and wait.

(...)

finally he comes running in, we go up in the elevator, they hand me a mask

I throw it. And then they're like,

(...)

they like lay down and I said, no. And so they just pulled down my pants and he was born.

Right. Like getting off of the elevator.

Well, right when we walked into the room, so we walked into the birst center, into the room

he was just born like that. Do you know, I was kneeling on the bed. They were like, we're going to check you. And I said, no way.

They were like, take off your clothes. I was like, no way.

(...)

So he's born, you know, I catch him, the doctor comes in and I'm holding him. And I realized he's stone cold and blue.

So he gets taken away from me anyway, because he had, so he needed oxygen. So they just take him, you know, immediately.

my husband went up to the NICU with him because our thing was like, our baby's never alone. We had already decided that because of COVID.

So he went up to the NICU and I'm left alone in a room

no baby.

What did I don't even know? What did you do?

(...)

You just, you weep.(...) There's nothing else you can do. And the nurse says, you know, we need to make sure so, you know, they start checking me out and getting me, you know, they say, well, you can't go up until

you know, things that they've checked or they make sure you're not hemorrhaging.

So it was about three hours.

(...)

And finally I went up there

I walked into the room.

(...)

And, you know, by this point, like he's an incubator, he's got the arterial line, nobody can hold him, nobody can touch him. And my husband looks at me and he goes, he was dancing.

You didn't know.

We didn't know.

I had asked them when I had my ultrasonic, I didn't do other testing. So that's on me. But when I had my ultrasound, I was like, nothing's on you. Right?

(...)

Like, wow. That was like, you know, his nose is so little and his head is so little.

you know, is anything wrong? And they're like, no, it's all totally normal. But honestly, my appointments when COVID was going on,

they were sold, like not

they should have done at all. You know, it was like, this is not about the woman who's pregnant. This is like,

I mean, they would sit there and like talk about new COVID protocols and stuff like that. And then they're like, oh, yeah, you look good.

can't even I like, I can't like, I think I would have blacked out the three hours without my baby.

It's let alone there is nothing. And then you go up there. And then of course, the main thing after that becomes pumping.

my God.(...) Yeah. So right away, as soon as you realize that you're not going to be able to hold your baby for a week is what it was.

What do you mean? Because of COVID or what?

No, because when they have an arterial line, if you bump it,

you they could die.

So you get to look at your baby for a week.

So that was my second matraseth.

(...)

I would say

it was with Remy because I learned that when our children can eat and breathe

do all these amazing things that they do

I thought, you know, somehow were just, you know, because I was such a great mom, or I mean, I didn't think that, but it was like,

we have these beautiful birds and I breastfeed. And

that everything is a gift.(...) Every single thing.

(...)

Nothing

just a given.

of the nurses, she told me that first night he was on like full oxygen CPAP.

(...)

And she had been called in just to sit there and watch his monitor because they were so concerned.

So eventually what had happened is he had a collapsed lung.

And then of course, what we didn't realize at the time was he also had a pretty significant hole in his heart.

know, you're finding these things out in the leaks that follow.(...) And then what really saved his life was nitrous oxide.(...) They were able to give him that.

(...)

some people weren't saved from COVID with that.

But what happens is they give them that and it kind of expands their lungs.(...) And then once they're expanded, they really slowly wean them off of it. So it's like an extremely slow weaning process.

And if they're breathing after worse, then it worked.

(...)

oh my goodness. You had a two year old

you're spending all your time in the NICU.

Yep. So six weeks,

six weeks.

And because it was COVID, none of my children can meet their brother for six weeks.

(...) Oh my gosh. And they were old enough to like really,

really,

(...)

really, and like Esme's fear was that he would die and she would have never met

So it was like, because we had kind of, you know, with COVID, we're like worst case scenario, you know, one of us gets COVID and, you know, the baby gets taken away with another one can be with.

the real person who suffered the most was my almost two year old because we had, I mean, we were, I had weaned her in June and this was September.

Esme was just pulling up this video of Jane's second birthday, which I wasn't there. And there

was a cake and there's like grandma and grandpa and siblings,(...) and she blows out her candles and then she just starts bawling.

I would think, okay, I'm going to go home and see Jane. So my husband would come and we'd switch.

she would hang on to me so tight when I had to go back, even if she was asleep, she would have her arms around my neck.

You know, and so, but I was on a time limit because I had to pump. And then once we could hold him and start trying to either breastfeed or bottle feed,

you know, that's just what you're doing around the clock.

and then it's a waiting game. Once they start eating and breathing, then you can get them home.

And then he was on a G-tube for how long?

Yeah.

So in order to get home, we ended up getting him a G-tube because he wouldn't, he couldn't eat for all practical purposes.

So like the first time I breastfed him,(...) his latch was perfect. I was so excited.(...) And the nurses come in and they're like, well, he, he was to Kipnick while you were nursing, which just means they're breathing.

but a respiratory rate goes way up. So she's like, so you can't do that again.

I had no idea we were going here. I'm sorry. No, I'm just processing. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm really,(...) thank you.

(...)

And I'm sure it'll be so helpful for so many women to hear. And I'm just sitting in so much gratitude and

But here's what I have to say. Like knowing you, Elise, I want to know how you, that's what Emily always says. I want to know. Right now I really want to know

I would see you from afar and I didn't know you at all, my first thought was look at that beautiful, stylish, peaceful mom. Like those were my things that those were the adjectives in my head. Like you obviously care about how you look and you love dressing yourself. You're just so peaceful. And like, there's this like quiet joy that reminds me a little bit of my mom.

(...)

And that was before I even knew you. So how

you get to that place?

So I would say, and this is actually what I would say was the outcome of my second matrescence was joy.

(...)

Because I don't think I had joy until I had Remy.(...) And the reason that I, like, I mean, I had happiness and I had moments of joy that I didn't know.

It's hard to describe,

you know, I just think about waking up with my husband next to me and Remy between us

way that feels.

(...)

I don't, you know, like I had never

so much gratitude and joy.

hear one thing recently, it was that someone was talking about happiness and finding happiness. And it said, if you want happiness, either you can get all the things on your list that are going to make you happy or do those things. Or you can make your list really short.

And it made sense because I thought, well, all I wanted at that time was for Remy to live.

And he did. So why shouldn't I be joyful?(...) You know, and then, you

what if he did it?

I think I'd still be joyful from knowing him.

(...)

You know, so it's just, it's like this really,

you know, I don't know. It's the hardest point was at six months he had to finally have his open heart surgery.

(...)

That for me, because I was more not taken up with birth and, you know, all of that, that was a little bit of a distraction, like just trying to

recover from having a baby.

We all crying now.

Sorry.

(...) Are you the only one not crying?

No, I'm crying.

(...)

I didn't even write any of this stuff down to talk about.

so before heart surgery, it happens really suddenly because what they do is they're watching him, watching him. And then it's like, okay, he's getting lethargic. He's not able to eat, you know, whatever. It's time, you know, so,

you find out like two weeks beforehand.

Oh my gosh.

(...) So they're like, okay, it's time. It's time for heart surgery. So that means scheduling,

you know, going out to children's in Milwaukee during COVID, getting our COVID test, getting him a COVID test, grandparents coming to stay with the kids.

and then

go and,

(...)

you know, so it's just me and Isaiah and Remy and we stay at the Ronald McDonald and,

know, you bathe him the night before

sleep together and take pictures that morning,

you know, and then you go and you hand him to someone

you see him six hours, you know, you sit there for six hours,

what was amazing. So we go there the morning of, and the nurse who walks in, um, is wearing a bracelet that says pick up your cross.

(...)

And then the anesthesiologist walks in and he's like, so I hear he's got a touch of the down syndrome.

(...)

And he was just talking. It turns out that he's Charlie Barron's dad.

That's funny.(...) Okay. Can I tell you something? I mean, this is so creepy.

So I'm pretty sure he lives two blocks away from where I'm recording this right now.

(...) Charlie Barron's.

Yeah.(...) Okay. And I'm saying that because my husband sees him walk on our street pretty frequently and he recognizes the house from videos. I don't, I like, I'm like taking his word for it. I don't know. I just feel like it says it. Oh, so we saw our brother. Okay.

All right. I'm sure. I'm sure you're right. I mean, he has to live somewhere. Right.

(...)

I just have to say like, what a blessing it sounds like because I mean, you lived in, you know, outside of Seattle, you've lived in some very cool places. You moved back to the Midwest, which I'm sure has a lot of perks, I'm sure, but also a lot of things that are kind of a bummer, but that is such a beautiful Midwest moment. Yeah. Your hour of, well, there's not even a word for it. Six hours.

Well, and then it gets even better. So the nurse that I ended up having to hand him off to is like six foot four, this huge, muscular, beautiful man. He could have been Jesus.

(...)

So I hand my baby over to this man and he just like wraps him in this warm towel and he's walking down the hall. He actually fought the woman nurse to carry him.

(...)

So the last I'm seeing on my son, he's just like

this guy's arms, you know, and I just felt like, okay, God's got this.

(...)

Six month postpartum hormones, like on top of(...) just the hardest journey for most people's lives ever. Like aside from postpartum anything.

(...)

Plus, which I finally put the pieces together later, I was

you know, very,(...) very advanced pair of menopause. So I'm having hot flashes and anxiety attacks.(...) Yep. So I'm having hot flashes, anxiety attacks. My periods are like one week apart and then two months apart.

You can do this like right after you have a baby and your breastfeed.

(...) And I'm pumping.

What?

(...)

That's right. Have they studied you? I don't know.

I'm not making these things up.

So then, so I don't even know, like maybe you guys shouldn't even post this show, but

of my most challenging moments when Remy was nine months.

(...)

I mean, I have to say at least we will post whatever you are comfortable with. Okay. I can tell you anything you're comfortable with is just a gift to the whole world.

So, yeah.

you know, again, like I know I'm at the end of my childbearing. Okay. This is it.

so right around nine months, I, you know, was running. So I had pumped for nine months. You know, that's all he had gotten was my breast milk. And because of the stress around the time of heart surgery, my supply was just like really

dwindling.

So when he actually, he would have been about a year because it was September, I got pregnant again.

And I wanted to, that's the crazy part. I really wanted to, because I wanted

have a normal birth. I wanted to breastfeed my baby. I wanted to have milk for Remy. I mean,

this is how crazy I was.

(...)

And

didn't get sick that time.

(...)

And so when I went in and eight weeks, you know, for an ultrasound, I wasn't surprised that there wasn't a heartbeast.

(...)

But then you have to wait for the miscarriage. And so Remy had been scheduled for a surgery at nine(...) months where they were going to go in and

out why he wasn't eating. So they were actually going to do a triple scope. So they were going to check out his esophagus and his lungs.

what the, like sinuses, ENT kind of stuff.

we actually brought him down to Madison that time,

(...)

stayed at the Ronald McDonald house. And that night before his surgery, I started having a miscarriage.

I wake up that morning and I'm in the shower and I'm just shaking because I know like Remy is going to have surgery again.

(...)

And I'm losing my heart. I'm losing this baby.

(...)

And this is the beautiful thing. Okay. And this just, I remembered. So the day before

had to take him in for a swallow study and they always ask, are you pregnant?(...) And there was this lovely speech therapist that I had met with once before. And she's in there and she's pregnant, very pregnant. And she says, you know, we just always have to ask this, are you pregnant? And I said, well, I am, but it's, you know, I'm losing the baby.

(...)

And so she's like, well, you should probably, you know, just, we should go in the other room because we're pregnant. And so

the next day I had seen her after his surgery. And of course, now at this point, like, I'm really actively losing the baby now.

And she wrote me the most beautiful letter

(...)

that I could, you know, here's this doctor who doesn't know me, you know, and she, but of course, obviously is like on the verge of accepting a child into the world.

And she just, she wrote me a note and she just said,

know, I want you to know that my thoughts are with you. And I can't imagine,

know, what this is like. And just, I mean, that note was,

it was, I want to be the person writing people notes like that, you know, someday when they're in a hard time, people that I don't know or

and I'll remember that to this day, you know, I'll remember that forever. And I'll remember her and I'll pray for her. And

(...)

So your life looks a little different than you thought it was.

(...) Yeah. And where's Remy today? What is Remy's, what does Remy do today? It's a Friday.

(...)

So Remy today went to the movie theater for the first time and was, terrified. Oh no.

(...)

So actually my six year old went with her school to the theater, but she's never been to a movie theater.

And she goes, why is it so dark? Why is it so loud?(...) But by the time, right. So by the time Remy was upset enough to go, it was like 10 minutes and she was totally settled in.

(...)

So Remy and I walked and there

but there's a children's museum of sorts right next to the movie theater. So we just went in there and it was awesome.

do a great day. So Remy is, Remy's doing

well. Yes. Remy, Remy learned to walk right after his fourth birthday.

So he's walking. He is now talking. He knows like 200 signs

sign language,

which I'm assuming you must also know if you can communicate him.

There's most of them, not all.

(...)

So that was new. I always learned with the other ones, oh, you should learn sign language. And I was like, or not.

(...)

So yeah. And he, so he had his G-tube taken out in June.

He ended up,

wasn't, so the second surgery he had was at a year and at nine months he was diagnosed with something called food protein, food protein induced endochoelitis syndrome or F-pies.

If you've heard of that,(...) there will probably be some mom listening to this whose kid has had F-pies.

(...)

And what that is, is there are certain foods and most of them are all the first foods that you introduced to a baby. So sweet potatoes, rice,

oats,

banana.

And what happens, so when we started speech therapy, because after the heart surgery had a oral aversion,

so like if you put,

know, a bottle or breast or spoon near him, he would just you know, violently turn away.

So we started speech therapy and,

know, of course the things that were, speech therapy then is feeding therapy. So it's the, it's under the same umbrella.

think the first time I gave him sweet potatoes,

he, I thought he had gotten a flu, but it was kind of weird.

(...)

So he got really, like his hands and feet got really cold and he was vomiting and having diarrhea.

And then he basically just went comatose for 12 hours.

we were scheduled to go to a woman's house who had invited me over

she had adopted two little boys with Down syndrome.

(...)

And so we just kept saying like, we should get together, we should get together. Well,(...) the day of, I think the third time this has happened, had happened to him, I called her and I just said, we can't come like

son is throwing up and having diarrhea and screaming. And then he passes out

she goes, Oh, he has F pies.

Wow.

Which is so the food protein in those foods actually causes, you know, intestinal distress to the level, like they have to empty their body before

okay. And their hands and feet get really cold and like they'll lay there, but then it's 12 hours later, they'll wake up smiling and completely normal.

So because he had a G-tube, we weren't having to go to the emergency room because I could hydrate him during that time. Like if a kid didn't have a G-tube, it would usually be like a trip to the emergency room.

Wow. So

was kind of the why it took him so long to eat.

Because once I ran out of breast milk, there was one formula that they had recommended for him because it can't have anything that's going to cause that.

So we had put him on that. And then that formula was recalled.

So we learned that on a Friday, we looked at our cans of formula. They were all in the batch that had to be tossed.

So

a weekend where we didn't have any food for him

because the only formulas, you know, so I called, I called Madison. I said, you know, we don't have any formula. None of the stores have formula on the shelf of these kinds.

And then they had recommended two others and those were all thought out. And we called the emergency room here and they said, we can't give any formula away. There's a formula shortage.

don't have milk anymore. He's over a year old.

this is where Facebook comes in. Like, I finally had Facebook and so I posted that night, I don't have any food for my child.

You know, if anyone has any ideas, like this is the situation.

And women started bringing breast milk to my door.

And then our entire life was just finding a rounding up breast milk(...) for about, I think it was about nine months.

And then nine months.

Yeah.

(...) Because rounding up breast milk.

Yes.

here, you thought you were going to get your PhD and your full time job.

Yes. Well, I'm still going to write a book.

I know you will.

It's going to be amazing.

(...)

So we're rounding up breast milk and people, I mean, we're finding, like we have two freezer tests in the basement now because of our whole breast milk

that was amazing in itself. And then the process of finding out what foods he could eat. So there was a time when it was, so I started with blueberries

then we did quinoa.(...) And so over time I developed an entire recipe that I could give him that had like all the nutrients that he needed. So it had molasses for calcium.(...) It had, so it usually had like blueberries,(...) vegetables, a lot of vegetables are usually a trigger.

(...)

So berries tend to be pretty safe, but every food that I would add to his blend was like

scary thing to think like, could this trigger something? And sometimes things would,

which killed me. That was awful.

(...) Because you knew that you put it in his food.

Right.

But also you need to put it in his food. So you know.

Right. I mean, I'm force feeding my time. Yeah.(...)

so we're doing all this. You know, I have this blend that I can give him. I'm faithfully blending every day.

And I mean, that was my life, you know, is blending food and feeding him.

And then

Eve. So this would have been maybe two Christmas Eve's ago, I get a call from a friend just out of the blue.

we're talking and she's talking about her that she finally went back to her OT practice.

She had taken, you know, a lot of time to raise kids and she had two daughters.

her specialty was in feeding.

Wow.

(...)

And she knows nothing about Remy. So I started telling her about Remy and

we were getting to the point where we were looking

I had just done a phone interview with a program that will do help you with tube weaning.

$20,000 out of pocket kind of thing.

Yeah.

(...)

So,

(...)

you know, so I mean, because that's how desperate you are. Your child doesn't eat.

(...)

They don't eat and there's no medical establishment that that can show you how to get them to eat.

so she says, I will take you on as a client. And we start meeting every week for, you know, zoom appointments and she starts sending me books.(...) And she actually goes and gets a month of training with the program is called Thrive. So with these specialists, you know, just top of the line,

(...)

she sends me, there's a podcast called Tube to Table

they do. And so last Lent, that was, I love, you know, like, like I listened to podcasts while I'm on the treadmill and I would just listen to the story after story. How did these parents wean their child from the tube?

And slowly, we did it.

And, and that, I mean, that's a whole that's too long of a story to tell. But it does one of the things I wrote down.

I think you were talking about this in a different show, just like, kind of when you're in the work world, there's a lot of,

like, everything is very measurable, you know, so when I worked on the computer, it was like, I got a lot of positive feedback, I got a paycheck.

And

wasn't, and this is why, again, that it was a second matresence, because it took me that long to learn that my greatest triumphs, the things that make me who I am,

and make me

in a way

you know, could say something like tube feeding, that took me

of research,

(...)

hours of time, you're just

thousands of hours, you know, and nobody knew about it.

And nobody will ever know about it, you know, so it's like, my greatest triumph,

which is that my child is not still on a G2.

Nobody knows about.

also, nobody can really understand, because I'm listening to you say these things. And some things are clicking for me like, Oh my God, that's got to be so difficult. And I'm sure you're giving us 5%, maybe 2% of the whole story. And we're still just like, what even is this? Like, what is right? I know, I'm still processing what it would feel like to have my child be nourished in that way. I haven't even made it to the step where we're talking about adding things in, watching him get sick, taking them out and to hear that there's no support, and there's no research for this. I mean,

oh my gosh, there are

certain things like you were saying. So all this, and all the struggle and all the successes, I still can't think about the fact that I couldn't breastfeed him. That's too painful.(...) When I'm on a bad day, when I start to go down that road, I can't do that

that was a gift that I could give my other children.

But then there are other things. So with the other children, anytime we snuggled, and all kids are different, but especially like as my nurse, so she was over three. And for her, it was all about nursing.

Remy was the first baby that I had that just was 100% comforted with a snuggle.

(...)

And I mean, we took so many naps together, just crawl on the bed. And so that was

that I would have asked for or would have preferred, but it was still a gift to have that experience of like, I'm holding this child at all they want is just to be helped.

So, you know, there are these like little gifts along the way that are completely

(...)

know, you look at your other kids and you think, wow, I worried about this. Or I worried about that. And all they were were just like these fat, healthy kids running around, you know, eating and

all their stuff.

think you've definitely gone through two matrescents.

(...)

But this is a little extra is even beyond matrescents. I mean, it's like walking into a kiln and coming out completely reforged.

Yeah.

I think I felt shattered. The shattered was the word Kelly.

Yes, I love that word. I love that word that shattered new mom. Look, I think you guys said yes.

(...)

Perfect.

(...)

And she said it and we were both just like, yes,

(...)

but shattered is different than completely incinerated.

would always think about the refined like gold. Yes.

I always feel like when I look at a life story, there's always something and I always feel like it's maybe late 30s, early 40s. There's a defining moment.

it's different for everybody. But I always feel like there's a defining moment that sends someone in either a new direction or kind of solidifies the direction that they're in.

And one thing, you know, we had been told is, well, this is really hard on marriage. You know, a lot of the nurses were like a lot of marriages don't make it through the whole NICU

needs.

(...)

And for us, it

I mean, it was hard, but it like

us like nothing.(...) And it changed our family. It changed my older kids.

just, it was our moment of redefining. And I did feel like we can either become better or we can fall apart.

Those are the only two choices, you know, it's like, yeah, and, and we don't have the strength ourselves necessarily to become better. But we have a lot of gifts that we were given, you know, we have, we did have a, you know, supportive families at that time, like you were saying, when did things shift? Well, my husband went from being like the least favorite son in law to

favorite son, just because he's so faithful.(...) You know, he's so loving, like,

know, I think my mom always, he's kind of ADT, and he might be a little aspy. And so she would like,

think like,

he doesn't, he doesn't do maybe all the things that she was looking at that a husband should do for his wife or, you know,

it might look like he's ignoring me. Like, let's say he's playing the piano and I say something, he won't stop. You know, and then my mom's like, he's ignoring me. I'm like, he knows exactly what I said. He's going to answer me in five minutes, you know. So just like, you know, there's certain things where it's like,

is a defining moment.(...) And

because I was at a point too with the older kids where I was actually thinking of going back to school. And I was thinking of,

know, finally writing all the books that I had drafts for, you know, whatever. I'm like, this was my time.

(...)

And somehow, it was very intentional, we decided to have more children.

and then all the things that you can't decide that come along with that actually have, in some ways, broken me and shattered me. And I, I feel maybe more fragile than I used to

I feel more vulnerable. I feel like I have less to offer the world

terms of feel

less to offer the world after you just made it through.

Well, I feel that,

mean, before like music was always such a huge contribution or

I always was knitting and making things. And, and I don't do any of that. I mean, I've just started reading my first book for pleasure in five years. All the books I've read, I mean, I was an avid reader. And then all the books that I've been reading now were on tube feeding and blending your own food and how, you know, all these things. So it's like,

I, in some ways, I do feel like I've lost myself, but I also have something really new,

I'm still uncovering it, if that makes sense.

So it's those physical acts that you can't, that you used to do, but your wisdom is invaluable,(...) but you're probably just uncovering because you probably haven't had time to process, but like, you're just going to be a mentor to

women. I just know it already.

(...) I don't know. Kelly, is Elise here sourdough friend? Like you came into her house.

Oh, my husband. Yes.

Okay. So Elise, I remember when I heard about you, Kelly, I think you called me in her car or something. She was leaving your house and she was like, Emily, I just met the most amazing woman in family. And she's like, I don't know how to describe it. You just, you walk into their house and it just, just feel like you're in this incredible place. Like I walked in and she was like, do you want some coffee? And there was just sourdough that was just like coming right out. Like Kelly was trying to like describe to me this like intangible

Okay. So here's something interesting.

after you left that morning, I thought, wow, I must just come across as like the stupidest old lady.

But then, okay, so here's the other piece.

(...)

But then, okay, so here's the other piece. And this is something. So up until we moved,

well, up until we had Jane,

(...)

we always had like tons of people in the house.

Just so homeschool things we have to do like homeschool choir and homeschool Roman banquet. And you know, so then there was that. And then when we got involved in music at church, it was like all the college kids came over after choir practice. And

thing, and this is one thing I'm trying to figure out,

to gain my confidence back is when you have so Remy's tooth and I blend his food, you know, not now, but up until recently. And then Jane,(...) because of me being taken away so abruptly, stopped eating. So she had been like my best toddler eater, you know, eating, trying new foods. And I was like, this is going to be, you know, great. I'm actually doing it right this time. And when I disappeared for six weeks, she went to eating one food, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

and then when when we were teaching Remy how to eat, mealtime had to be a very specific thing. So there's a few rules. You never compliment a child for eating. You never reward them for eating. You never tell them to eat.

You never even look at them when they're eating because they can sense your anxiety and your excitement, you know, so you just have the food there.(...) And you pretend like nothing's happening.

And you can't really have people in the house and people over for dinner.

When you're trying to do it, like even with my family, I had to send them, you know, countless printouts, please don't ask about Remy's eating in front of him. Please don't talk about food in front of him and food goals, you know, and all of that. So(...) it's a very specific thing that you're doing. And, you know, I remember,

I have a video of it, I had offered Remy something to drink probably 3000 times.

And one day he drank a cup of chocolate milk.(...) You know, that was less than a year ago.

And I have it and it's the first time I had really heard him swallow

being born, which is like the most beautiful sound.

(...)

And so he's just sitting there with his straw and his chocolate milk. Like,

it's just so it's the most beautiful thing, but I have to act like nothing's happening, you know, so you have family around, they're going to be like,

Oh my gosh, he's drinking,

you know, and as the mom, you just have to act like this happens every day.

And how do you explain the struggle? Like, you can talk about the right, it's not the same thing. It's not going to resonate with most people as the way it does when you live it. Like the magnitude, I don't think you can grasp

necessary this work is.

Right. Like this is so important. But so now, but the point is, like, I haven't had people in my house. And one thing I'm really struggling with is gaining the confidence to have people in the house

to see

our mealtime is so really weird, you know, so because Remy doesn't like to swallow solid food. So this is still a work in progress. Like he fills his plate and he'll chew things and taste things, but he always spits them out.

You know, so not everybody's comfortable with that.

So for me, it's just I need to figure out like, I want to start living a normal life again.(...) But I don't know how and I don't,

I'm newly confident about some new things. But I'm also really confident because of five years of like living in a cave,

Yeah, it was magical.

(...)

Okay.

(...)

And I

can vouch for it. Oh, really? I was like, this is the friend, right? I'm pretty sure Lisa's that friend. She like had to call me because she was just so excited to have like, a met you and be well, that

means a lot because I tend to feel like people must come into this space and be like, I just went to crazy, you know, because it's like, I can't explain to people what's going on with Remy too, especially when he's there.

But it's,

it's a messy process.

I know that Callie has to edit this. Okay. I don't know.

I can't even think about that. I'm still this is

I honestly, I'm a different person after this conversation. I just thank you so much for sharing, Elise.

(...) Well, you're both so beautiful. And you've inspired me Callie, especially because I know her more. I look at her and I think I want to be like that when I grow up.

Me too. Oh my god. Me too. Crying again. How?

Okay, to avoid or cry.

There's something that I've been wondering this whole conversation. I didn't

been wondering this whole time how you and your husband dealt with the changes.(...) I think in the beginning you were talking about your kids viewing your marriage as this sort of maybe not unattainable, but a very high bar is the sense that I got from, which is beautiful. And so then I hear about you getting married at 19, having all of you now standing in bed. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh, definitely had dreadlocks a few times. Okay. Bellingham makes so much more sense now. Not been a day before.

I had the nose ring. I want to get the nose ring back so bad, but here it says so much. Do it. It's like there you can have it.

I probably will. You have the right nose for it. You can do it. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, do it.

How did you two stay connected? How did you cultivate this marriage? This is my question before I heard about Remy. So we could talk about your time as a young couple or now, both, whatever you're comfortable sharing. I want to know how you cultivated and grew this relationship that your kids revere.

It's interesting because I've been thinking about that, just with all the possible questions. And I've been thinking about,(...) especially while we were in Bellingham, that was one thing I discovered about myself. I'm not comfortable with other people watching my children, unless it's family and we didn't have family. So we didn't do date nights. We did stay at home date nights.

We have a lot of really similar interests.(...)

get into the Dula and midwifery thing, he just wanted to hear about all of it.

(...)

we're reading, we read, not now, but we used to read books together.

And from the very beginning, so I would say when we got married, we would be considered kind of anti-materialist. So from the very beginning, we were like, things don't matter.

you know, probably things matter to us more now than they did then. We own a home.

But I think that was actually a really big piece of it because none of us were, like neither of us were really

for some big thing we wanted or some big achievement. So many things are interesting to us and beautiful and exciting. And everything our kids got into was always really beautiful and interesting and exciting.

we did stuff together with them, and then we'd stay up late and read books or watch movies or whatever.

when, so I kind of had a reversion, not a reversion, but we became Catholic about 10 years ago. And since that point,

(...) both of you together.

(...) Yes. Yeah. So he was practicing his Orthodox faith.

And I wasn't practicing anything. And then about 10 years ago, I had a convert, you know, just a personal conversion. And then together we came to the Catholic Church as like looking for a place where we could land.(...) And since that time, we've always prayed together.

he always brings me coffee in bed in the morning. That's one thing that's worked out really well for him.

(...)

But, you know, somehow like he brings me my coffee and we just sit there and say prayers. And that goes a long way,

I will say.

(...)

And then just having like,

I do think like being interested in the things that your spouse is interested in

just really fun,

you know, and it makes you feel important if somebody else is interested in what

think is interesting.

(...) Kind of going through my brain, like the Rolodex I have of the strong marriages, the strong partner, that's where I'm just like, yeah, what, and I, that does seem to be a through line in my 22nd examination. Like, oh, yeah, these people do just show a lot of interest in each other's interests, share hobbies.

That's cool.

We love to walk together. Like that's been, sometimes it'll be like 10 at night and we'll go out for a three mile walk, you know, because we have the, we have Esme here. So we're like kids are down and we can go walk and

we'll just talk.

you just have so much spirit and joy. And I just hope that we can all get a fraction of that.

Well, everyone you've had on this show so far are all amazing. I've been inspired. I've been walking around just like with little tidbits. Like what I think, Callie, you said,

your heart breaks, your, your heart's,

heart breaks with underhood every time, every day, every minute, but the heart's a muscle and it gets stronger.

Your brain makes new pathways so that things that happened before, you know, you have a place to put it,

It's like, okay, I can do this.

(...) Yeah. More amazing.

(...)

Oh my gosh. I also just love how you have found support just from other women. Like your whole journey has just been, I feel like women, whether it's the homeschool moms with library(...) or the nurse, you know, just like the nine

months of breast milk supply. Yeah. Just incredible.(...)

I guess.

So there

was one young woman, I have to, I have to tell this story because it was so beautiful. So when she heard about my situation, she goes, I have a chest freezer full of breast milk you can have.

what had happened is when she had had her first son, she had had milk supply issues.(...) And so the minute she had her second son, she started pumping because she was so worried that she wasn't going to have milk for him. But then she ended up having an abundance of milk.

So she gives me all her, you know, little bags of breast milk.

And what's so cute is, you know, you write the time and the date and so I would look at the time and be like 2am.

(...) And then she'd write little notes. She had written notes to herself. You're beautiful.(...) Smile on, you know, so I'm getting all these like sweet notes.

know, oh my gosh. Wow. Just, and they weren't even written to me. She had written them to herself,

know, and that is a really good thing. Like when we love ourselves and we support ourselves, it really, it's not a bad thing to do. Like it spreads.

more we nurture ourselves and our own children, it does spread.

love that.

Yeah.

Wow. So what makes you feel beautiful?

Well, my husband makes me feel beautiful.

He makes me feel so beautiful, even when I don't feel beautiful.

(...)

Just when you really need it.

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah. The way he looks at me, you know, with now I was going to say one of the big things is with Jane and Remy, I got really bad varicose veins. And so like summer is stressful to me.

But

have someone who, when they look at me, just

to kiss me, you know, that's just awesome.

(...)

So in that were a good pair of jeans that fit perfectly. I love it.

(...)

Well, it was just a delight meeting you first of all. And I'm just deeply grateful for everything you shared. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. You're both amazing and you're doing such an amazing thing for women. So keep doing it.

Thanks.