Episode 27: The One for the Overwhelmed Mom with Brooke Heinzmann: Permission to Let Go of the Guilt, Have a Laugh, and Create Intentional Family Culture

Join us as we welcome Brooke Heinzmann, a 33-year-old mother of three from Chicago, to The Real Mom Hub. With refreshing honesty and humor, Brooke shares her unfiltered motherhood journey—from the shocking reality of life with her firstborn to finding her rhythm as a parent of three. Brooke offers unique perspectives on finding community, letting go of guilt, & embracing the beautiful mess of motherhood. Her candid stories about breastfeeding struggles, co-sleeping "hacks," & learning to trust her instincts will resonate with any mom who's ever felt overwhelmed by conflicting advice or parenting ideals.

Main Topics & Discussion

The Shock of First-Time Motherhood

Brooke describes her first three months with her daughter Willa with brutal honesty, & she shares how she and her husband called those first eight weeks the "Angry Plant stage"—having a baby that could scream but gave about as much affection as a houseplant. While everyone asked if she was experiencing the bliss of new motherhood, Brooke struggled with a difficult baby, painful breastfeeding, & sleep deprivation. Her experience highlights the disconnect between expectations & reality for many new parents, especially when your first child happens to be particularly challenging.

Finding Freedom from Parenting Guilt

One of the most powerful themes in Brooke's parenting journey is her evolution from anxiously following "rules" with her firstborn to giving herself permission to parent in ways that worked for her family with subsequent children. From co-sleeping to contact napping, Brooke shares how she stopped stressing about what she was "supposed" to be doing & instead focused on what made sense for her family. Her insight that "you get the kid you get" challenges the notion that parents can control their children's temperaments through specific techniques, offering liberation from the weight of parenting guilt that so many mothers carry.

Creating Family Rhythms Through Faith and Tradition

Brooke's journey to Judaism provided her family with meaningful structure and community. She describes how Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm of connection & rest for her family—a deliberate pause from technology & outside pressures that fosters deeper bonds. Despite the preparation involved, this sacred time creates space for family togetherness & personal renewal. A great reminder that intentional traditions, regardless of faith background, can anchor family life & provide children with security & identity in our increasingly disco

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

The plan is checked. What's happening?

(...)

Hi,

We have Brooke.

Brooke Heine's been with us today.

Thanks for being here, Brooke.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on The Real Mom Hub.

The Real Mom Hub. Can you just give us a quick overview of your live, typical weekday, how many kids, that sort of spiel?

Okay,

am 33 years old. I live in Chicago and I have a husband and three children. I have an eight-year-old Willa, a five-year-old Ira,

(...)

and a two-year-old, well, she'll be two on March 31st, Zipporah,(...) and

All three of my children were born in Chicago.

So we've lived here for a decade or so.

I'm a stay-home mom. My husband works in tech.(...) And I, well, I was in the military for a year after my daughter was born, but I was in the military for a total of seven years, but I did my first pregnancy and a year postpartum in the military before I was a stay-home mom full-time. So that's kind of my work background.

That's so hardcore.(...) And thank you for your service.

Oh, well, thanks. You're welcome.

(...)

For the listeners and Kelly was like, "Oh my gosh," and Brooke was like, "Oh yeah, Willa is eight."

(...)

That's because Brooke and I went to high school together

(...) with the fact that you have an eight-year-old.

Yeah, that's shocking.

No, it's weird to me too. The other ones, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm definitely old enough to have children that age," but Willa is just like, "No, she's eight. She's a real kid." That is weird.

You're like a big kid.

So is there anything about motherhood that shocked you to the core?

first child is in a movie, like a war movie where a bomb goes off and all there is is that ringing sound for a while.

(...)

I feel like that was the first three months

(...)

of my daughter's life.

(...)

And I think it was that way for her too because she seemed pretty shocked to be alive.(...) Was she going here? Yes, she was a very difficult baby.

(...)

We loved her so much, but we called it, the first eight weeks, the Angry Plant stage, where it was like having a plant that can scream at you and it gives you about the same amount of affection as a plant. And I think that was really hard because everyone's like, "Aren't you in love? Isn't it the best thing ever?" And I was like, "I love her and I'd die for her, but I don't know."

(...)

She's so pathetic. I have to take care of her, but dear God, please help.

(...)

Wait, I have a question already. So many questions. But the most pressing one for me right now, okay, Angry Plant stage.(...) Was this coined during the Angry Plant stage or looking back at it?

I think we made it up during, we made up a lot of weird stuff because she was awake a lot. She had no sense of day and night for a long time. I came to find that this was not normal when I had too much easier babies after her. She would just stay up till like 2 a.m. Just awake. She was just awake so much compared to my other two babies.

(...)

We had so many feeding issues.

Nipples were just cracked and bleeding forever. And everyone was like, "Have you tried this? Have you tried that?" I'm like, "No, I've just tried suffering."

(...)

And that's just kind of how it was. And I just kind of accepted that. It really didn't get easy or comfortable to feed her until

she was maybe like four or five months old.

(...)

And I just white knuckled it, which I was really only able to do because she was my first and it was just all I was focusing on.

Were you using white knuckled? Were you trying to fix her latch, do different things? Were you just trying to breathe through the pain?

Yeah, I did a lot of that. And I just, every day would Google when does breastfeeding get easier?

(...)

And got a bunch of different answers. And everyone would just try this and try that. And I basically just kind of faked it until I made it with breastfeeding her.

get one bottle a day

because then I would go pump in the bathtub by myself when she was really little because that would just, I needed that time off.

In the water? Take a bath.

Yeah, I would just use the hand pump in the bathtub and just kind of like sit and try to relax

the pressure off, like Nick is feeding her right now, don't worry about it.(...) She will eat food. There's just this weird kind of cave woman feeling of like, I need to feed my baby.(...) And I think that I felt that very acutely with all three of my children.

(...)

But it kind of is just very arresting with your first child. And she just was a very,

(...)

she was a really difficult baby. And on one hand,

really cruel to imagine two dumb 24 year olds with this really difficult baby. But on the other hand, it would be really hard to have two really easy or normal babies and then have your third one be a really, we like to joke that Willa is the head of the children's union and that she collectively bargained for baby rights.

(...)

Everything I tried to do, don't go sleep and don't do this and don't contact NAP and blah, blah, blah, blah. All the stuff that I tried not to do with her, I just did right away with the other two because I wanted to live my life.

(...)

And I was much happier and I'm much less stressed

(...)

with my son Ira's birth and even with Sephora, when I just was like, no, I'm not gonna stress about co-sleeping. I'm not gonna stress about giving him a bottle now and then. I'm not gonna stress about holding her while she naps. Cause when Willa was little, we would do all this bouncing and rocking and whatever and then set her down in the crib and then stand by the crib. And then after 20 minutes, she'd be like,(...) and like wake up.(...) And that was just like my life until I gave up and just would be like, oh, I'll just,

(...)

with my son, I was like, I'm just gonna hold him while he sleeps or I'm just gonna put him in the baby carrier while he sleeps and just accepted that he was permanently attached to me. And I was much happier. Like I was just like not having that pressure.

And the funny thing about that is, everyone is like, you're never gonna sleep again. Like, they'll never learn to sleep and all that kind of stuff. And I can tell you right now, I did all of the wrong things with both of all of my children.

(...)

And Ira is still like, he's always been an easy, good sleeper. Like he goes to bed, like has always slept in his bed, like easily and fine. And my oldest like still will be like, mom, like, you know, and there's just, you get the one you get, you know? Like so many of these things that like people like to attribute to like something they did, you know? Like people brag about like how good of a sleeper the baby is. I'm like, oh, do you brag about like how many diapers your baby makes a day? Do you brag about like, you know, like how many times your baby blinks in a day? Like that's what you sound like when you brag about how your baby sleeps. Like this is a biological function that is like, is going to happen or not. Like, you know, it's nothing you did, Karen. Like it's just, you're just lucky that you have a baby with a decent temperament that sleeps.(...) Some of us don't. Some of us have a baby that's like a bomb that went off and you can't hear anything but ringing from David Prime Ryan for like three months. And that's just how it is.

Ever considered standup? Like I'm picturing your sharp brain kind of like processing through all these thoughts and kind of like really crafting a really good. I don't know. I mean, it's just a stream of consciousness. Okay, I also think about that. I also have other questions. So when you're saying, you know, they say, don't do this. They say, don't do all the things you're not supposed to do that you're doing. Who were the loudest voices for you? Or why did you think, oh, I ought not to be sleeping with a baby on me or whatever?

Well, I got like a book about like sleeping,(...) about like baby sleep habits. Like when I was pregnant

my cousin

(...)

and I'm convinced that she just had all easy babies, good sleepers and she has six children. And I had talked to her about this and she's like,

I was like, how did you like do this? Like, and she's like, well, they're six because they all slept well.

(...)

Like, you know, and I was like, okay, that's fair. That's really fair.

It could be so hard during the day and then you get a good night of sleep and the next day is totally new or it could be just actual health.

Or it could be the same day for 20 days or more.

The same day.

Yeah, no, for sure.

(...)

You know, my dad was all like,

don't spoil her like letter, you know, and you hear grandma like be like, it's good for her lungs to let her cry. And I'd be like, is it good for her veins to bleed? Like, you know, that's what you sound like grandma, like with all due respect.

(...)

All due respect.

You know, like that's what that sounds like to me. Like, you know, and now like, I'm just very like, mm-hmm, like it's much easier.

(...)

I think

quickly with Willa, I learned

like one or two places that you take advice from and don't listen to other things, you know, like just like focus on that. And I think like University of Michigan had like some really good

and postpartum kind of things that I like latched onto

(...)

and that was one of them and I don't remember the other. I know, so random.

Yeah. No, but I mean, you went there too because when you're Googling in the middle of the night, you wanna find something that's like kind of credible. So you just go to University of Michigan, you're like, yes. And then algorithm just keeps throwing University of Michigan at you. Like I think the same thing happened to me with University of Michigan.

Funny.

(...) Yeah, no. And so I feel like I was just like, okay, like if you Mitch says it, it's fine.

(...)

Oh, and then there's a infant sleep lab out of Notre Dame about co-sleeping from an anthropological point of view. And that really was helpful to me.

(...)

That's really cool.

That like was talking about like the science and like safety of co-sleeping.

(...)

And that just kind of like helped me. I didn't really legitimately co-sleep with Willa until she was like four months old. Like it was kind of like, I thought it very hard.

But then it just

we started just co-sleeping, life was much, much better. And for a while,

when the baby's really, they're really little and like, you know, you worry more about like a lot of the safety issues.

I would have, I had, we made this like crib(...) that like could like hook up to the side of our bed. And I would like literally like sleep in the crib on the firm mattress, like half on the crib, like with the baby like next to me, like, you know, like with the other two.

(...)

So I did all the like, you know, unsafe bad mom co-sleeping hacks, but like whatever.

(...)

and it just like improved my life.

I feel like that was like a really nice,

moments of connection with my children. I mean, Zippora still sleeps in bed with Nick and I.

you know, I think around three will probably like put around like a crib mattress in our room and see how that goes. You know, all of my children, like it's been a very gradual transition to their own rooms and independence, but I can tell you they eventually do it, you know, and it's all been very peaceful and no tears or, you know, whatever. And it's,

I think that that's been really nice. Just like taking away the stress of like what I'm supposed to be doing versus like what works and what makes sense for our family

(...)

and getting rid of that like, you know, guilt.

oh, another thing people talk about is like when you're breastfeeding, they're like, oh, they're using you as a pacifier. And it's like, no, like I'm not a pacifier. I'm like, the pacifier is mimicking like the breastfeeding relationship here. Like I am like comfort to them and like warmth to them. You know, like I'm not a pacifier.

Don't like, you know, reduce me to that. You know, I don't like that. And obviously like when you have, you know, all three of my babies like struggled with weight gain in the early days, of course you need to like understand the difference between like nutritive and non-nutritive sucking.

(...)

But like--

I've never, so how do you tell?

(...) You know, you can tell, yeah, like the swallowing, like the suck suck swallow and like, you know, just like all of that kind of stuff, like tell whether they're actually like vigorously nursing versus, you know, just, you know, comfort nursing.

sure mine comfort nursed exclusively.(...) Like they never did the vigorous nursing. They just snacked all day.

Yes, mine were all day snackers too. Like I would nurse them in the baby carrier like all the time.

Okay, I did not get that down yet. Moms that can do that, it's a superpower.

I think it's an anatomy thing. Like I have really saggy breasts so they can just kind of go everywhere.

(...)

Thanks for the visual.

(...)

(Laughing)

It's like a windsock kind of situation.

Oh yeah.

(...)

Ira, I only nursed on one side,(...) like one breast because he just like wouldn't nurse like on the other side. Whoa. It was just like weird. Like so he just like nursed on one side and it was fine. And I was just mega lopsided for like three years.

You did that on the back, are you still super lopsided?

(...)

My right side is still like a little bigger, not like as pronounced as before, but like it is definitely like a little bit bigger.(...) And I don't know if that's because of the nursing or not, but I have one nipple that is just like a better nipple.

(...)

You know, so.

Because like a specialist told you or cause your kids told you or cause you like it better. Like what makes it a better nipple?

I think it was just easier to latch. And then I also think like, because I'm right-handed, it was just like more comfortable for me. So, and that was another thing I just stopped stressing about, I was like, whatever. Like that's the nice thing about like being a second time mom is like while

are still like new and every baby is different, every pregnancy is different, every birth is different, blah, blah, blah. There's still things that you're just a little more like, okay, like I understand what is happening right now as opposed to the bomb going off. And you're just like, what is happening?

(...)

So, have you always wanted to be a mom because when you're talking, you're just so like confident and like, yeah, I can't believe, like it's blowing my mind that you were just okay with breastfeeding on one side. Mine too actually. I would be like, I'm gonna die of mastitis every day. I don't know. I just like can't believe that you are so chill with that. So have you just like always felt like you're gonna be a mom and it just like was natural? I have always wanted to be a mom.

Fun fact, when we did like career day in high school, I actually shadowed your mom and said I was going to be a homeschooling mom.

I forgot about that. You sure did.

I did, I did. And I tell Nick about that and he's like, well, it's like half right. You know, like I definitely couldn't homeschool.

you know, that was like 15 year old me, you know, being all like into the concept of like being a stay home mom and whatever. That's kind of what I always wanted to do.

And for better or worse, you know, it's definitely, you know, what I

to do. I think there are difficulties.

(...)

It's very like relentless in that like,

you know, when you have little kids at home, especially you just don't get any time. I mean, this is not, I'm getting time away right now from my child, which is cool, but normally.

To talk about, bring it at your children.

Yes.

(...)

But,

normally I am with her right now, you know, and

She stays up super late. She doesn't really nap.

She's like a weird kid.

(...)

This is number three.

Yes, number three, Zippora, Sippy.

she's kind of like, it's almost like she's like a college kid. She'll like sleep in and then not take a nap and then stay up till like nine, nine 30. Whoa.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, no. She'll sometimes fall asleep in the car or like sometimes fall asleep in the stroller,

I, once again, I just was like,

I stopped caring. Like I was like, well, like if you're gonna have a nap, get it in girl. Like, you know, that's on you. Like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like orient my day around your nap. Like, you know, like it's just, it's not gonna happen. Like you have to get, you have two older siblings. Like we have things to get done. Like it's just not gonna go that way.

I wonder about that. I have a violin student who has seven other siblings, I think. And I was texting her mom to like reschedule a lesson today. And I said something like, well, Nora will be napping, but I'll still have the other one, but I like need the lesson at my house. I can't go to where we normally go. Cause Nora is napping and she was great about it. But I thought like, wow, eight kids later, she's probably like naps. Are you kidding me? But it only took what two or three for you to be like naps.

(...)

You know, it's just like, I think at three, like they outnumber you. And like on one hand, I always hated the idea of like, well, you just stop caring about things. That's not true. Like I do care.(...) And I do like acknowledge her as like, you know, an individual and like, you know, give her my attention.

But there are things where it's like, you know, with Willa, like Willa could sleep in as late as she wanted. And like, if my husband's gone, like Zippy's got to wake up because we got to drop the bigger kids off at the bus. You know, like that's just like the reality of it. You know, she was born into a house with two older siblings. And so it's different. Like my husband and I joke that your first child is like,

you form like this weird cult around like your first child. And like, you're just kind of like obsessed with your first child.

you're weird. Like you're genuinely weird about them.

(...) That tracks.

And then with the subsequent ones, you still even like,

it's never quite the same. Like it's never quite the same.

And you know, even the second one, you're still like, you know, you're seeing your first become like a sibling and all that stuff. And that's, you know, it's just, there's nothing like the experience of having your first baby because

you know, with more children and subsequent children, like

coming into this already very like established dynamic, you know, of like the family and that dynamic changes because, you know, the family's growing,(...) but there's already like, they've had the baby collective bargaining happen and like, you know, like the, they get inducted into the baby union and they're like, you're allotted this many breastfeeds a day. And like, don't let her put you down. That's not in the agreement, you know, like that's the, at least just that's how it felt like with my subsequent children is

And that taking that stress away though, the stress of like what I was supposed to be doing or whatever, it just might, it made the experience of mothering a lot better and just not having that mental, like that kind of white noise in the background of like all(...) of the conflicting advice and things that people say.

And then the other thing that I think is just once again, people undersell is like, you get the kid you get like, and you have to parent that kid. And that holds true from when they are a baby to like, you know, beyond, you know, you can't parent like an idea of a child. You have to parent, you know, the child you have.

you're acutely aware of it when they're a baby. Like you can't make them sleep. You can't make them eat.

But you know, as they get older, like there's other things you can't like make them, you know, do things. You can't really make them do things that you don't want them to do. Like not really, you know. And

think that people maybe undersell that babies have their own personality and temperament, like right away, that you, and we choose like these environmental factors like sleeping and feeding and, you know, clothes and rooms and white noises to feel like we have this illusion of control over our baby and the temperament when really you're kind of just along for the ride,

especially in those early days. But you know, some of that does like continue as they get older and they form into their own like, you know, person.

(...)

son and my husband really clash like personality wise. Like they just like.

Ira is five.

Yes, Ira is five and Ira, you know,

(...)

he's a lot like me and, you know, my husband was just like, he has a lot of your qualities that I love in my wife but do not like in a five year old.

(...)

(Laughing)

And I think that's really fair.

(...)

Like, you know,(...) I think that's really fair.

So I've been listening to, like, I feel like all of my podcasts right now, it's like these different experts trend. So like three different podcasts, one of them's a mom podcast, two of them are not. All recently had guests on talking about personality changes in adults and how

things like, isn't that funny? Things like personality changes as we evolve? Yeah. Or okay.

my question is, are there traits since becoming a mom that you feel like you like have changed for you personality wise or even just like things are really good at? Cause our kids like obviously have these huge personalities, but I don't feel like we think about ours often.

Yeah, I feel like I've really,

(...)

I've definitely mellowed out, you know, I've become a less

person.

(...)

I've definitely learned to like manage my emotions better.

I do like, you know, I definitely like holler at my kids more than I would like to.

(...)

But you know, they'll be like, you're yelling mom. But meanwhile, I'll be like in the kitchen, I'll be like, kids come down for dinner. And they'll be like, stop yelling. I'm like, I'm yelling over the Pokemon, you know, I'm not yelling at you like, but noted.

(...)

I think that I've definitely become a more like whole person as a mom. I definitely feel like becoming a mom

(...)

really like started a process of just general like healing and self acceptance for myself.

And I've,

out toxic things that, you know,

(...)

weren't serving me. Like it was more easy to do that after I became a mom.

relationships and whatever.(...) It was easier to be like, I'm not gonna like model that for my kids. And you know, maybe that's sad. Maybe I should have been able to like, you know, do things just for me and stuff like that. But you know, it's neither here nor there. Like when I became a mom, it was easier to see the things I didn't need.

(...)

And I feel like that has helped me grow into a more

person.

(...)

And I think that I've gotten a lot more empathetic and better at like that perspective taking, you know, cause

and I noticed this the most with my first like, who once again, like, you know, just crazy things she would do. She would sometimes like when she was a baby, she would just wake up at 2 a.m. and just be like awake for like two or three hours. And she would do that well in the toddler hood.(...) And so the rule, what I'd do is I'd get up with her and I would put on Mr. Rogers, like the OG Mr. Rogers, because he would be like, he would like parent me.(...) Like, and Mr. Rogers would like teach me to like cope

(...)

at 3 a.m. or whatever.(...) And I also felt like, you know, cause you know, I'd be so tired and I'd just be on the couch and like, Mr. Rogers would be on, Mr. Rogers isn't, it's not like mega stimulating. So I was like, you know,(...) if the, you know, I'm like, okay, well you're going to be up at 3 a.m. Like you're getting Mr. Rogers, you're not getting like curious George or, you know, whatever like, yeah, you know, you're, you know, you're getting like the calm Mr. Rogers and like the trolley and you know, There are many ways to say I love you There are many ways to say I care about you

(...)

I haven't seen that in so long.

It's really good. And I watched a lot of Mr. Rogers with Willa and I feel like he really like helped me like regulate, you know, like I felt like Mr. Rogers was parenting me as like a young mom at those like 3 a.m. times. Like sometimes I would like, I, you know, I'd be like off, you know, we've watched Mr. Rogers, not just at 3 a.m. but like during the day to every now and then and you know, while I'm cooking dinner or whatever. And like, I'd catch something and be like, yeah, like that's right Fred, you know, like,

(...)

you know,

(...)

like I would just get things from him. So, you know, that just like helped me like, you know,(...) calm down.

(...)

Were there any other thing, that's brilliant, which is why I'm asking, were there other brilliant things that you did to like stay connected to yourself during that crazy phase that you can remember eight years later?

(...)

I liked to write stories a lot. I always needed to like do like a creative pursuit of some kind, whether it's like cooking or sewing or, you know, writing, not for any economic pursuit, but just because I'm someone who likes to make things and you know, likes to do things with my hands, like painting a room or like, you know, doing a wallpaper project or, you know, like that kind of thing. Like I would say that's, I really like to, you know, make something every day.

(...)

And that kind of helps me.

(...)

I would say that that's still pretty consistent.

(...)

And then it can kinda, you know,(...) Sephora was kind of like afraid of my sewing machine for a while. So like that went away for a little bit. Like I would put her in like the little like, I don't know, baby seat thing. And like, I would put her right there and then like try to sew and she'd be like,

(...)

(Sings)

(...) Sad.

(...)

I know, it was like really sad.

(...)

But, you know, just general creative pursuits. Like I'm not a master of anything, but I just like to do things, you know, I like to do creative things.(...) And I think that's always been very good for me to do.

(...)

You know, I like to all call people on the phone just to like talk while I do laundry or whatever. That like helps.

(...)

But yeah, you know, I think that helps keep me going.

(...)

Makes sense. I wanna go back to when you were talking about

(...)

becoming a mom helped you identify like toxic things in your life and like A, identify them and B,

(...)

for whatever reason choose to cut them out, whether it was you had the courage or just felt like it was necessary to protect your family, whatever. That's a pretty huge realization. We're pretty huge, I would say like turning point in someone's life, or at least I've had a similar experience with becoming a mom. It's just a different perspective on things.(...) So I'm not gonna ask you to dive into Yuck unless there's some-- No, no, totally.

(...)

But I'm also curious like while that was happening, if you had this like a realignment of values or a shift in perspective that's influenced your lifestyle, how you want a parent.

(...)

Yeah,(...) you know, I guess like when it comes to like having like a bad relationship in your life,(...) I was like, I have a kid now and I can't let her see me treated badly by this person because then she's gonna think that that's okay. And it's easier to like shift your thinking and being like, well, I wouldn't want someone to treat Willa this way. How could someone act this way to Willa? It's easier to shift like that, like when you become a parent to like really see like how bad a situation is when you imagine your child in that situation.

(...)

I'm thinking like, what would I tell Willa if Willa was in this situation? I'd tell her to leave, like I'd tell her not to tolerate this. I would hate to see her as a mother

(...)

going through this kind of relationship.

(...)

And so that made it easier to just like,

(...)

cut that kind of stuff out pretty quickly.

(...)

And it would be nice if we could do those kinds of things for ourselves, but sometimes it takes that like perspective shift to really understand like what needs to be done that way.

(...)

The stakes are higher.

Yeah, definitely.

You didn't know that they existed and now we have all the stakes.

(...)

Yeah, no, 100% because kids,(...) they're innocent and they don't know what they don't know.(...) And I remember like during the pandemic one time in Chicago,

(...)

there's like people who live in tents like on Lake Shore Drive, there's a great deal of homelessness, like whatever. And Willa was like, why are people living in tents? And I'm like, that's a good question. They don't have work, so they don't have money, so they can't afford a house. And then Willa would see like an apartment complex being built and be like, why can't they live there?(...) And they just like keep asking questions like that and you have to like eventually get to the point, like it's illogical, they can't understand it. And you just get to the point where you're like, I know, it's really sad, that's really hard. And I think that kids as they encounter these things about the world, just generally, you have to kind of, it shifts your perspective because like you're like, huh, like this is normalized to me.

(...)

I've built up walls, I'm a hardened, jaded citizen of the world.

It's so cliche to say, but like, yes.

(...)

Charlie asked me why dinosaurs were extinct and what that meant this morning and I was like, oh shit, he was a giant, I have to tell him, but then I was like, so then I tried to tell him and then he's like, but why did that happen? How did that happen? And I was like,(...) hmm, the unify, like I guess I don't really know and he was so confused. It was a whole ordeal, I'm gonna have to revisit tomorrow.

And then you're like, but don't worry, there's no chance it'll ever happen to you, right?

That's really what I was thinking is I'm like trying to explain it.

(...)

tell me about your choice(...) to become Jewish and.

Oh, so that's a whole podcast episode. That's a whole podcast episode in and of itself, but I will try to like keep it focused like on my children.

(...)

Knowing you a bit, I know that you have a really counter cultural lifestyle in a lot of ways in terms of being an American in 2025. Lots of things are seemingly like status quo, but you do have some lifestyle adjustments that are going to be different from many of their peers.

(...)

Well, my kids go to Jewish school where most of the children are like religiously pretty aligned with our family.

But they won't always like when they're out of your house and they are holding the values that you created as a family.

If they choose to, no, for sure.

But there's still part of their nurture, you know?

For sure, for sure.

They'll have these forever.

(...)

For sure. So I met my husband, Nick, when I was 17 at band camp and that is the dating advice I always give people is when people are having issues finding a significant other I say you should go to band camp when you're 17.

(...)

Too bad. Oh, you're 35, sucks to suck.

Maybe you should try band camp.

Was it interlocking?

Yeah.

Okay, so like,(...)

okay, well not even know is the interlocking is prestigious. It's not like you're out of your band.

But I think band camp, yeah.

Yeah, no, it's scary.

(...)

met him and he was probably the first Jewish person I'd ever really met besides Mrs. Schneider, who was scary.

met him and he's like, oh, like I'm a cashew, like my dad's Catholic and my mom's Jewish.

And he didn't really grow up with like a really strong like religious identity either way. But the more, we went to college and whatever and like, I had like some Jewish friends and the more I

the more I realized that like, if I was with him, like my children, because of the way Judaism works, like would be Jewish in some way, at least like ethnically,

whether I was or not. And

a little after we got married, I was basically like, I wanna be Jewish so that our kids are Jewish because you're Jewish. So like, I want that for them. And that, I was like, I love you and you're a Jew.(...) And he was like, yeah, I guess.

So that was like, when I was

with Willa,(...) I did my first conversion to Judaism, which is a whole process and whatever. And I did it through the reform movement.

you know,

I guess like seven years of life, I did another Orthodox Jewish conversion when I was

weeks pregnant with Sephora.

I've had two conversions to Judaism

and both of them occurred while I was pregnant, which I think is really interesting because conversion to Judaism

ritual immersion in a bath called a mikvah, which involves like natural water.(...) And, you know, it's like a pool of some kind, but it has to have like, there's a lot of specific requirements that make it, you know, a kosher mikvah.(...) And,

know, a lot of times, you know, people say that like, you know, converse to Judaism(...) are born with Jewish souls, but conversion gives them a Jewish body. And that in the process is in many ways, like, you know, like birth and like when there's a specific way to immerse in the mikvah, you have to like lift your legs up and like be like completely surrounded by the water. And it's very fetal and it's very parallel to like the waters of the womb. And I felt both times very much connected with my daughters, like through that process of, you know, a spiritual, physical ritual

(...)

that mirrors like the intimacy of pregnancy and birth.

And I think that, you know, it's just interesting that I've, I guess experienced that, you know, both with, you know, both of my daughters in a way.

(...)

And I would say,

I really believe in, you know, living this way and like living this life.

you know, my children are very proud and very

you

rooted in their Jewish identity because, you know, they live a Jewish life, which,

entails, you know, a lot of things that,

know, I guess people find,

they, it affects your diet. It affects like the way that you like conduct yourself. It affects

things you can do, things that you're obligated to do, things that you shouldn't do.

You know, there's like a rhythm to your day. Like you have morning prayers, you have, you know, prayers that you say before you go to bed.

there are just lots of, you live a Jewish life, you know, it's not just something you do like

you know, to live like a Jewish life, you know, it is like a marked difference.

(...)

And that is like, you know, most keenly reflected in just like, you know, the way that we spend like Shabbat, which is the Jewish Sabbath day, which is, it starts on Friday night and goes on, goes into Saturday evening, you know, it's 25 hours. And, you know, there are prohibitions on, you know, work, cooking and, you know, making things. And, you know,

travel,

(...)

there are a lot of other rules,(...) but, you know, it's like a marked difference in your week and the things that you're doing.(...) And my children are very like

in on that, you know, that's like a part of their life is Shabbat.

So that is definitely a way that I guess our family

(...)

looks different than maybe a lot of other families.

And, you know, the way that our family observed Shabbat, like, you know, isn't going to look the same as the way other families do, you know, and that is

know, all well and good. But, you know, that is just, you know, part of what we do, you know, and has been for years now.

Willa, my oldest is,

(...)

she's like a very, very spiritual person, you know, like she is very, she's very holy,

she was actually born on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year.

So I always tell her that like you create, you share a birthday with creation,

and that's why you're so holy.

And I think that that's true. You know, she

And she's just a very like holy little girl.

You know, she, you know, cares a lot and like cares a lot about like her prayers. And, you know, she cares a lot about Shabbat. And she's always quick to tell Ira when he's violating one of the 10 commandments.

(...)

You know, he's not honoring his mother and father, you know, and she, of course, of course, like if she violates something, you know, like whatever, but like, you know, she's quick to tell Ira.

But yeah, you know, that's kind of like a, you know, my Jewishness does relate a lot to my children and being a Jewish mother and raising Jewish children. You know, it's very like tied into that.

And it's very important to me and it's always been important to me because like becoming a Jew has always been about in some way having Jewish children(...) and raising Jewish children and learning with them because, you know, it's difficult to be Jewish, be an observant Jew, and have not had like a lifetime of Jewish education, you know, because it's a lot to learn.

(...) And I have just always accepted that I'm going to learn along with my kids. You know, it's not like, you know, like my daughter has classmates whose parents are rabbis,

it's okay if I'm learning along along with them, you know, I think it's good for them to see me

not knowing everything and having to like think about things and having to try different things, you know, I think that generally that's like a positive experience for them

think it's good for kids to see their parents learning and growing and pursuing things,

Have you found a lot of community then within like your Jewish culture, like their school or?

Yes,

we have, we have very close friends that we spend every Shabbat with, you know, we go over to their house and our kids play every Saturday and then, you know, we go to synagogue most Saturdays

and we have a community there that's very supportive and very lovely.

I, we don't have any family in Chicago, so that's been really important to us and just like,

there's, you know, meal trains when you have babies and all that kind of stuff, you know, just classic things like that, you know, it's just like very nice and very comforting. And then like in times of hardship, you know, it's been like a really difficult, like, you know, last like, you know, over a year now and having that community to like lean on and be a part of has been really helpful.

and seeing my children be like, you know, very safe and very proud, you know, and having our children's school as like a partner in like parenting and like growing our children has been like a really wonderful and rewarding experience. You know, I say that I like couldn't homeschool and part of that is because like, I just don't feel like, I feel like my kids school is like a part in like raising them. They're like a partner, you know, we collaborate.

having that support, knowing I'm not like in it, like alone has been really invaluable, you know, and I view that relationship with my children's teachers as like this collaboration. We're all like on this team to

grow these humans.

we go back to Shabbat for a minute? Because I--

(...)

and when I rather gracelessly led off this conversation about

faith, I've categorized your lifestyle as countercultural.(...) And I mean that

in the sense that, I think, in America, to live a devout life, or a devout-- a life full of faith where your lifestyle is aligned to that is countercultural, unfortunately, in 2025.

But I remember in our family growing up,

we always had to be home for Sunday dinners.(...) You could do whatever you want. You could bring whoever you wanted, but Sunday dinners were it. You could make no plans.

And our bosses were unhappy about it.

(...) Yes, down to our work schedule. That was the demand. And I remember in high school, people thinking, oh, that's so strict. You're so strict. And now I'm thinking about your celebration of Shabbat.

And as a parent, I'm thinking, wow, what a gift to have that structure built into every single week just as a family. So I'm curious if you can speak to what that looks like for your kids, how that shows up in your family time together.

it's what they're used to.

with the time change, the sun is setting later now. So usually, I'll give them all a bath before Shabbat, because you can't heat water on Shabbat.

(...)

There's a lot of planning involved. You have to cook everything in advance. And it has to be all heated up a certain way. So the kids are used to that. But then that frees me up from cooking. And they know that we'll wake up in the morning, that we'll always have some kind of special breakfast, whether it's like bagels or coffee cake or, you know, one of those things. Like we'll always have like a special breakfast on Saturday morning.(...) And then we'll go to synagogue and we'll go and like synagogue for me is kind of like me time, because like the kids go off to like the child groups. And so I get time and then it's an Orthodox synagogue. So men and women sit separately. So my husband is off like where he with the men and I'm with the women. And like, you know, it's really time for me to just kind of like exist as an individual.

Which I really enjoy.

(...)

And then, you know, my kids will be off like learning or, you know, doing prayer and doing the kids groups. And then we'll go to lunch at synagogue. Like where there's usually a spread for lunch and we'll eat that and do that and socialize with people. They'll play with friends and talk. And then we'll come home and,

know, on Shabbat you can't do things like draw or write or color, you know, and so, you know, you shouldn't watch TV shouldn't, you know, so usually like a lot of times like Nicole play backgammon with the older kids.

that's a little hard, like, you know, with the two year old, she wants to like get in everything.

we'll get there. That's it. You know, that's an important lesson that you can learn from Shabbat is like, just because things aren't exactly where you want them. Like that this Shabbat doesn't mean they're never going to get there, you know, so like someday what I love if we're all just like playing like board games together and like spending all this time together instead of like the two year old, like, you know, Godzilla, like destroying like whatever they're doing, like, yes, but like, you know, like, we'll get there. We'll get there someday, you

basically it's just a day for connection and family. We don't spend money on Shabbat. We don't drive on Shabbat. Um, you know, so that really does limit activities to like, you know, being at home.(...) But a lot of times it is a day for kids like, you know, have play dates and play with their friends and whatever. Like, you know, when you have like a community of people all like doing this thing, doing Shabbat, like it doesn't, you know, it does. It feels like the normal thing to do, you know, so like, you know, you have like Shabbat play dates, you know, with other kids. Um, you know, it's just kind of a day of, you know, people go, everyone, when the weather is nice, everyone's out for like Shabbat walks in the neighborhood.

but you know, it kind of like forces some of those activities that you probably like wouldn't do, you know,(...) um, when you don't have

limited things that are lit, when you have limited things that you can do, it like allows you to like,

connect in different ways.

and I try to focus more on like the spirit of the day. Um, you know, there are sometimes things that you're like, Oh, that's just not a Shabbat activity. You know, like,

know, you're not supposed to think of like weekday things, you know, you're supposed to, it's supposed to be like an elevated day.

You're a mother of three kids and you can't get hot water.(...) No, how do you make coffee?

So you, you heat, we have like, you have like a large like urn that you fill beforehand that like heats up like a bunch of hot water that keeps it hot for like the thing. But we, we also put our coffee maker on a timer. That's allowed.

Kelly's relaxing. Yeah. I was feeling like, I've been like thinking about this for like five minutes, like this whole day. And like, that's perfect. Except you don't have coffee.

Yeah, no,(...) no, no, that would be a problem for me too.

I was really stuck. Thank you.

No, I drink like six cups of coffee a day. That would be a huge problem for me.

I'm feeling like, like when we went, went on those camping trips for two weeks, I was just thinking that we all had our tasks and everything had to be really different. And you were like yanked out of your environment. And it was just, it's like that a little bit of that every single week. And we always get out of those camping trips.

were like down the army.

(...)

And it's just a day that you have,

not trying to ignore the spiritual reasons at all or the cultural significance, but on a parent podcast, I mean, what an incredible gift

your whole family.

(...) Yeah, no, I mean, I think it is really good. And we all engage with it different ways. Like my husband and I have different levels of like, you know, we're, we're both different(...) Jews and, you know, do things differently. But I think that's also really good for our kids to see is just like,

you know, that mom and dad like do things differently. And you know, that's, that's okay.

I think that's good for kids to see is, um, you know, difference in how their kid, how their parents like navigate things and still like treat each other with respect and like understanding of one another. I think that that's generally a positive thing.

and I think it's, you know, helps keep them from getting too dogmatic.

Yeah, that's yeah. That makes sense. Speaking of

tell me about how your relationship changed with each other when you became parents. You met really young, you were together for a while. Like you're very intentionally married together. Then you have this baby.

I

we like clung to each other for dear life.(...) Like I think we with Willa, especially like we were just like really trying to like survive,

we didn't like have let anyone visit us for at least the first like four weeks. And I think that was largely because we felt like we need to prove to ourselves we can do this. Like, and I'm like, we just had this mindset of just like, and honestly, like it,

I kind of,

I admire us from then because let's be honest, like a lot of those early visitors aren't particularly helpful. We did my friend Sarah came, my friend Sarah came early on and she like got a hotel and came and did the good parent, good friend thing where she literally just like cooked meals and like, that's it. And like, you know, she didn't like fuss or do it. She literally just like cooked and cleaned and like stayed out of the way because you know, we were navigating all these like breastfeeding issues and sleep issues and whatever.

But like other than that, like, I think we both just had this feeling of like, we need to prove we can do this, you know, and that was kind of, it really brought us like really close together. Like we just, we were like all

three were all we had in the world.

(...)

And I think that that is

that was how it went the first time. And I, as difficult of a baby as it as Willa was, like, I look back on it really, really fondly. And I really, really like,

am grateful for that time. And I can't say that it was the same with our subsequent children, just because it's so much harder to be parenting other children while you're postpartum, you know, there's much more like tag teaming, like Nick, take the older ones out, like to go do something while I stay home with the baby. And that's isolating and really hard. And like, whereas like when Willa was born, it was like, we're in this together and we have each other where, you know, I'd say that's definitely the hardest part about adding children to your family is just that, you know, feeling of like kind of having to divide and conquer is just really difficult, you know, and like, that, yeah, that's just like, how, like, that's where like the postpartum period really differs. Like you're wiser, you, you know, things are less shocking to you in a lot of ways. But, you know, you don't have the same like laser focus on just like this one baby or, you know,

that is, it's a really different experience. And I feel like the postpartum period was just more of like a blur in a lot of ways with the other ones. Whereas like, while having Willa, you know, was so hard, and it was just really, it was also like, I felt like Nick and I were like extremely close through that experience of having her and like when, when Willa was born, Nick had like never even really held a baby before, like he like had no experience, like, and he very quickly became like a really hands on like very good dad. You know, he just, you know, knew that like,

she and I needed him like we really needed him, we needed his help, we needed his care and his support. And he like really rose to the occasion when Willa was born, you know, and he really grew, you know, and I remember with, you know, Port, Port Nick with Willa, I'd had an epidural with Willa, she's my only baby that I had an epidural with. And I remember it was at that time where I still couldn't stand up and walk, like yet.(...) And Willa was just, baby Willa was just like screaming her ever loving head off and like Port Nick is like, oh, like, and he just like picks her up and like, like held her like, you know, like, and he's like trying, I was like, bring her to me, like, I'll try and latch her like, you know, it was just like a total mess. Like the first like, that first night in the hospital was just like a total like, absolute mess. And then I, and then I had them like, I'm like, take her to the nursery, like, I need to sleep, like, you know, whatever. And then they're like, she's hungry. And I'm like, well, I don't know how to feed her. So thanks.

(...)

was, it was an intense like bonding experience,

I think that, you know,(...) for dads, like, you know, it's

the idea is so abstract to them. Because like, when you're pregnant, like, you're getting used to this, like idea of being a mother, like, you do have this connection with the baby.

Whereas like, when the baby's born, suddenly he's a dad, you know, and they have to like, all the baby really wants is you. So he has to like, like, his job is kind of just to take care of you while you take care of the baby, like,

you know, and that was kind of

name of the game. And I think, yeah, we definitely like grew a lot closer through that, you know,(...) once again, like,

were, you know, 24 and clueless, but I look back on it very fondly.

just nice. I wonder how many couples would say the same. Yeah. I mean, it's hard.

Yeah. I look back fondly too. I suppose we were watching massive amounts of Chuck, the TV show, and I had gone to try to get rid of Charlie's colic. Like I thought maybe it was a dairy. So I was eating massive amounts of Oreos because they're dairy while we were watching this. I loved it. Honestly, it was like the most disgusting time of my life. And I'm like, this is really fun.

Yeah, no, we, we watched like a bunch of TV too. Like we watched just like random shows, like with all three of my kids, like I have like shows that I like associate with like being on the couch nursing with like each of my children,

just like at 2am, like,

like a night feed. Like, cause I would usually, my babies were like kind of like sleepy, not good nurse, or so I would, when they were really little, I would have to take them out of the bedroom to like really wake them up to get them to nurse well, like in the early days.

(...)

So I would like put on like a TV show and like, you know, strip them down to their diaper and like really get them like, you know, like I'd have to change their diaper to get them to like, because they'd just be like, like fussing and like not waking up enough to like really eat.

You're like, this is go time.

We have to, yeah, no, exactly. It's just like, we're not going to do this.

Okay, I'm gonna wrap this up and ask the question. She's always like,

(...)

what,

(...)

and this might, you might have to take a second answer.

(...)

What makes you feel beautiful or valued as a woman?

there are certain rules around intimacy in Jewish marriages.

And certain times of the month that there are there's separation between a husband and wife, and then you go to mikvah, the same thing that you do for conversion, and you immerse in the mikvah, and then you come home, and then you're allowed to be intimate with your husband again. And when it's a mikvah night, you know, I'll usually come home and the house will be like perfectly clean, and the kids will be in bed. And sometimes there'll be like flowers or like, you know, they'll be like, my candles, like, you know, like, and they'll be like, super nice, you know, not every time, but a lot of times, and I just feel like, so like, queenly.(...) Um, you know, that just feels so like nice to me, you know, and then, you know, we can like, you know, be more physically close, like we can

be more free with like, physical affection, like hugging and like holding hands and like all that, you know, we can kiss again and whatever. And that, you know, always makes me feel really special.

but more so just like the appreciation of just like,(...) I can't like, really like relax and like experience like intimacy, unless like, I'm not worried about like a million things. Like there can't be like, you know, like dishes in the sink, you know, like, you know, like I,

this is why hotel sex is the way to go.

(...)

Just leave it all behind.

Yeah, no, for sure.

(...)

And so that feels so nice. Like, it's like, oh, like that. And then that makes me feel just like very like, I feel like connected, like with my femininity, like, you know, after like, you know, going to mikvah, like, because very like kind of like a spa like experience. You know, so I just feel much more like grounded as like a woman in person after that experience. And you know, I'll usually like, I'll pray about my marriage, I'll pray about my children, you know, so I feel like in like a mental place, like to receive like, you know, like love and acceptance, you know, so that like puts me in like a good like headspace.

(...)

Generally speaking, but you know, just those

like the thought that he like, you know, like spent time like juggling the kids and getting them to bed and like cleaning the house like that really is like, I'm just that's, it's really sweet.

I love it. Yeah, that hits so many buckets. Yeah, right there. I'm like, good on you, Nick. What if like, Kevin did all those things while I was recording right now? Like you never know. Yeah.

(...)

Thank you so much. This was so fun. This is so fun. I think you think stand up within the future. Yeah, first little snippet there. I mean, yeah, it was good.

Thank you for having me. No, I mean, I don't know. Like, I hope you get something that you can, you can make out of this.

So good to chat with you.

I hope you're(...) firmly sleeping. Yeah, we should.

Oh, I see. For is not asleep, but we'll get her to sleep now. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Well, unless she's, unless she's asleep on the couch with Nick, that's possible.

But gosh. All right. All right.

All right. Thank you. Bye.

(...)