Episode 31: The One that Validates Us All with Katie V, CNM: Designer Pacifiers, Preeclampsia & Identifying Coping Vs. Suffering

Katie, Certified Nurse-Midwife, brings the laughs and the energy as she gives us expert tips on navigating new motherhood and postpartum life and also opens up about her own journey through motherhood - from her unexpected battle with preeclampsia to the day her daughter declared "me llamas mujer" at the dinner table. This episode peels back the curtain on what happens when even the experts struggle with postpartum emotions, breastfeeding challenges, and the identity transformation that comes with becoming a mom.

Finding Yourself in Motherhood

Katie shares her surprisingly delayed connection to her maternal identity, revealing how it took until her second child to truly feel like a "mom" rather than just "a person who had a kid." With refreshing honesty, she discusses how postpartum mood disorders and trauma can disconnect us from the transformation of motherhood, and how proper treatment opened the door to experiencing real joy in her maternal journey.

When the Expert Becomes the Patient

Despite being a nurse midwife, Katie found herself downplaying serious symptoms during pregnancy until she was literally "coughing up blood." Her story highlights how women often gaslight themselves about their own health concerns, and offers practical advice about recognizing preeclampsia symptoms that don't fit the textbook description. Her professional insight combined with personal experience creates a powerful reminder of why women need to advocate for themselves.

Rebuilding Relationships After Baby

From "mom rage" over mismatched baby socks to struggling with a partner's cereal-crunching habits, Katie gets real about how pregnancies and newborns test even the strongest relationships. She shares the wisdom gained through her own marital challenges: "Overlook the shortcomings and compliment the strengths." This episode offers solidarity to any mom who's wondered if she's the only one whose relationship hasn't magically improved after having children.

Links & Discount Codes:

Kindred Bravely: THEREALMOMHUB15

Forward Beverage Co: REALMOMHUB10  (valid April 29-May 29, 2025)

Links & Discount Codes:

8Sheep Organics: Click this link for 10% off your purchase!

Kindred Bravely: THEREALMOMHUB15 for 15% off!

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

Like what you hear? Let us know!

• Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts & Spotify – Help others discover the show!
• Join the Conversation – Join us on social (Instagram, Facebook, TikTok), or send us a message at therealmomhub@gmail.com to let us know what you'd like to hear more of.
• Share this epis...

Transcript

Hi.

Oh, it's better.

Oh, good. Is it better? OK, great. Yeah.

I was texting you, because a lot of times people need a little hand holding, which is really understandable. Yeah. And you're like, I'm chill and ready. And I was like, all right.

(...)

Well, I haven't done anything else today except express my breasts. So--

(...) (Laughter)

It's kind of great.

And drink a very large amount of caffeine.

(...)

And water? Or are you only caffeine?

OK, good job. I love the strawberries.

It's still full from this morning, though.

Oh, OK.

That's your assignment over the next hour.

Yeah, work it after it. You're breastfeeding.

Thanks for joining us. We're so thrilled to have you.

Are you Kate or Katie these days?

You know,(...) I respond to many things.

(...)

(Laughter)

(...) Most people call me Katie.

Except my husband, who calls me Catherine and refuses to call me anything else. That's funny.

Your husband called you Catherine?

Yep.(...) He's very formal.

(...)

Can I tell you? OK, I need to tell you-- so for our listeners,

Katie and I went to college together.

(...)

And I just need to tell you how you are on my phone right now. Katie Megalodon Vanderbilt

is what you are in my contact.

I don't even remember when that came up.

I think that we had a weekend

somebody had access to cable television and the Sci-Fi channel was playing very bad movies. It's when Sharknado made its first appearance.

then there was something about a swamp shark. It was a shark in the bayou, but it was an alligator shark.

(...)

It was armored.

(...)

So then I thought a good movie would be a Megalodon gator shark. And so we just said that too many times. Yep.

Yeah. OK, you guys, I don't know what a Megalodon is.

It's like the predecessor to the shark.

(...)

Oh, yeah. Way back in the--(...) I am not a paleontologist, so I will use the wrong-- And it's a giant.(...) It's terrifying.

(...) Oh my gosh. This is like one of those things like Nessie that I would just look up to scare myself.

Except I think Nessie might not be real, and there's evidence that this thing was real.

(...)

Except if you talk to a Scottish person, they will tell me Nessie is real.

That's what I'm saying. I read

enough of Scottish historical romance when I'm postpartum

that nothing's real to me.

Oh my

OK, welcome to the pod. We're thrilled

to have you.

I

love if you could just tell our listeners kind of what a standard day looks like for you. You could choose your current period and tell us a little bit about that or your status for the future in the next few months, whichever you prefer. How about both? I love it.

I recently had our second baby.

My husband and I live in the Twin Cities.

(...)

And prior to having my second baby, I was working as a nurse midwife at a hospital. So a

day for me would have been getting up, trying to help my husband get our toddler out the house into daycare, although I am not a morning person. So I wait until the absolute last second to get out of bed, which is

a fatal flaw of mine. It's really not a good look, especially when you have children.

And your husband's getting your toddler out the door. I kind of love it.

Yeah.

He would prefer that I work on that, I think.

(...)

(Laughter)

And then I would run off to work. And

it ends up being about 75% of the time I'd work in the clinic setting. So

prenatal care,

gynecology care,(...) annual exams,

(...)

helping people navigate family planning, things like that. And then the other 25% of the time I'm on call at the hospital

24-hour chunks. So there'd be large amount of times, periods of time. 24-hour

chunks, is that what you just said?

Yeah. So there'd be long periods of time, and I wouldn't be at home.(...) And my husband is a trooper.

One of my professors in graduate school when I was studying to be a midwife said that all of your partners are getting their PNM degree, partner nurse midwife. And I don't think it's just nurse midwives. It's all midwives. Any partner of a midwife is signing up with them for the schedule, because it's not a great one.

And then the rest of the time is either catching up on sleep from that whole not sleeping for 24 hours part,

(...)

or hanging out with my kid.

I had a wickedly wild pregnancy with my second kid who ended up getting really sick when I was 14 weeks pregnant and was actually in the ICU. And so I haven't really worked since October-- well, September.(...) And it's now April. I just went back to work last week.

(...)

And I have no idea how it's going to unfold with two little kids, but we'll see. How old is your second?(...) She's 12 weeks, but she was two months early. So I just dropped her off at daycare this morning for the first time and had a moment, because she's like the equivalent of a month-old baby. And I was really sad.

But-- Oh, my goodness.

Our daycare provider sent me tons of pictures already. So it made me feel a little better.

Wow. Is it the same-- Thank you for being here on that day. Wow.

I actually thought it'd be a good distraction to remind me that I do really like being a mom.

(...)

I hope so. We'll work on that.

(...)

Yeah, the points when the motherhood just breaks you and you're just so

sad.

Oh, that's like most--(...) Most ace.

(...) Yeah, but I would guess it's particularly pointy.

There's kind of an unsympathetic mom in the lobby, too, as I was dropping the baby off and crying. She's like, oh, it's fine. And I was like, I don't know. I'm just really feeling it. She goes, ah, it was easier for me the second time, and then she just walked away. I was like, oh gosh. Hopefully she just really has to get to work, because that was not the validation I was needing in the moment. So I appreciate--

(...)

Oh my god. Here, guys.

(...)

It

is someone that drops two babies off at daycare. Well, I guess, yeah, the first one's daycare. The second one was homecare. I was visiting Emily and Kyle last summer, and I was just in this random Starbucks, and this mom came in crying. I don't know. She must have looked at me. I think I had my kids, and she just told me, this is the first day I'm dropping my kid at daycare. So we're both in Starbucks crying. It'll be worth it. It's OK.

(...)

It's hard. It's really hard.

It's really hard. But our two-year-old-- well, she's 2 and 1 half now, but she freaking loves that place. She walks in. She's

hi to everyone, all the staff, giving people hugs, high fives. I'm like, well, she likes it. She's like, oh, it must be OK.

Yeah. I think it can be really good for kids.

(...) Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, it's a whole ecosystem, right? Like, the women that you care for are so lucky to get your care.(...) You've always had a big brain and curiosity. So for you to be able to give that to your community--

(...)

Yeah. The ecosystem, all people have-- I mean, all the pieces of the ecosystem have to do what's needed for-- Totally.

(...)

That whole thing.

And I would say-- That's really the reason

there will be more babies.

(...)

Well,(...) it comes down to something a little bit that I'm not involved in, Kelly.

(...)

Yeah, but if you have terrible care, that plays a role in, will I have another one?

That's true.

Honestly, I didn't think about that.

Yeah. And also, as a woman,

(...)

I will never go to a male OBGYN, frankly. I've actually never heard-- I've never heard-- If there's a male midwife. And I'm not trying to be sexist. I'm just like, listen, if you haven't even had a period, I don't want to hear from

you.(...) And you're going to see me a couple of times for visits for a specific reason. Cool, cool, cool, cool. But if you're going to walk with me on my whole journey,(...) I actually have no interest in what you have to say to me, no matter how educated you are. That's just my personal opinion.(...) Yeah. Even if we want moms-- we want women to be doing this work and serving other women,

it's really helpful when they're moms themselves.

(...) Yeah. Or at least really understand

morphing into a mom.

(...)

It's funny that you say that, Emily, because actually the reason why I became a midwife is because of a male midwife. So I worked-- What?

Whoa.

Yeah.(...) I worked as a tech on the labor and delivery floor just by chance. I kind of fell into this job when I was thinking of becoming a nurse and there was a male midwife that worked there. And he was

(...) I was like, I didn't even know that nurse midwives existed, first of all. I didn't really have a lot of exposure to them. And then I saw this person just providing a different kind of care than I had ever really been exposed to in the medical system or really just anywhere

to these families. And I was like, I want to do that. That's what I want to do. And so

I just--(...) I think we have a few similarities, Emily. I was like, I'm going to-- I don't want to do that. I'm going to do that.

(...)

(Laughter)

I love it.(...) See, I said I'm going to be a nurse midwife. And then I realized how much school it would take. And I was like, I'm out.

Was it cool? Or was it because you watched too many episodes and called the midwife?

Oh, that was probably part of it. I actually know it was working as a CNA in a nursing home. Between that and the school, I was like, nothing.

(...)

I'm so glad you're here to do it, Katie.

(...)

So I'm feeling really lucky about this convo today. Well, lots of reasons. First, I get to catch up with my friend Katie. But also, for our listeners,

like a two-fer, two-for-one. Because we get to hear about your motherhood journey, which you're in the thick of. And then I want to get into the expert side of you and hear about your work. So let's start with the motherhood. And then we can kind of weave around like spaghetti as conversations usually do.

(...)

I want to know what shook you to your core, what was shocking to you about motherhood.

Is the answer all of it an option?

(...)

I mean, top three, I don't know.

(...) I always knew I wanted to be a mom in some capacity. I didn't always know--

I did not think that I would find a partner, which is really funny because I met my partner and got married pretty quickly.

(...)

I think we hadn't talked

Yeah, in the span of three years, I met my partner, we bought a house,

married, and had a kid.

So I just knew right away. But I always would-- I don't know. I would talk pretty regularly about when I have kids kind of a thing. But I never really thought about when I become a mom. Those two things weren't separate for me. But my experience was pretty, very separate.

I had my daughter, but I did not feel like a mom.

part took a long time for me.

How long?

I would say until I had my second child.

(...)

There were moments when I would say-- I knew I was her mom, but I wouldn't say I felt like I had undergone my matresence, if you will.

(...)

I was just a

person who had a kid. And I think it was because I experienced--

there isn't a way to quantify it. But I did experience some postpartum mood stuff in a way that I think I was just super dissociated from that transition process until I was in a spot to experience it differently.

So it's funny. I'm like, wow, it took you that long till you had a kid. And then as soon as you said,

just felt like a person who had a kid, I'm like, that's actually the only way I feel right now. So it's still not

So what about having a second kid made you feel like a mom then?

I think I

to work through a lot of trauma around the birth of my first child and then have my postpartum mood and anxiety disorder properly treated, which we can talk more about later because that influence is definitely how I'm midwife now.

really get back to me as myself and not

person who is experiencing

this trying to protect myself from--(...) I was in fight or flight all the time. Like I was running away from a bear. I couldn't be running away from a bear and experience metressence at the same time. I don't know, my brain wouldn't let me do it. So once I processed that stuff and kind of came down from that fight or flight response, I think that's when I started to feel more like a mom.

But it almost was like flipping a light switch after I had my second. I was like,

oh, now I feel it. I don't know how to describe it. It was a very different experience.

(...)

So has postpartum been more uplifting than we could say this second?

I mean, it's had its challenges. I wouldn't say it

been

thought it would be the first time,(...) daisies and roses and just snuggling my baby.

But it definitely has been a more positive experience and had a lot more moments of joy. And I think I've just also let myself sit in

moments of discomfort of this is a transformation and viewing it like that kind of an experience too.

(...) It's honestly kind of heartening to hear that you were a nurse midwife before having a child and still were so unprepared for how emotionally taxing postpartum can be.

Oh, yeah.

And then like, you know, even yourself who like diagnosis these things and other women, right? Like, did you have a hard time noticing that you were actually having those symptoms?

kind of, I think I felt like people around me were maybe downplaying it themselves a little bit just to like try and protect me maybe like, oh, yeah. Like, if we just like pretend this isn't as bad, like she'll feel better. That's how it felt to me. But I think they also--

It was just like my baby, I joke that I like just ate only for seven months because both my babies were born right around 32 weeks due to preeclampsia.(...) And the first time, it was super unexpected. The second time, we were like really prepared for it just because we had been through it before.

But everyone around me was traumatized. And so I don't

it took a while to like have the people around me, I think, understand the extent to which I was not feeling myself.

(...)

And you had shared on another episode, Kelly, about Deemer. I also experienced Deemer.

All

these moms are coming out of the woodworks. Yes. When you have a Deemer expert

on.

I think people just think it's normal, especially if it's your first time like breast or chest feeding. And you're like, I guess maybe you feel terrible while you're doing it.

But I had

heard of one other of my clients having it. And I was like, this can't be a thing. No way. And then I would be pumping in the NICU with my baby. And I would be having these really disturbing intrusive thoughts and feeling utter despair

when my milk would let down. And I was like, this can't be right.

And I will say, probably like you, I spent most of my time educating my own care providers on what it actually was.(...) And it was pretty hard to find someone who I felt like was helpful. Most people's advice was just go on the website about Deemer and just read what the symptoms are. And that should help you feel better.

And I was like, whoa. And then I was like, what do you-- some people are like, have a cold glass of water by your side. I mean, there's no-- I haven't come across any solutions.

I had an OB with my first. And she just literally said, oh, I've never heard of that. And like moved right along. That was it.

Yeah.

Excuse me.

Yeah. There isn't a ton of research on it. And I'm sure as you both know, you're both

who take it upon yourself to learn things about different topics. And there's a lot of things in women's health that we just don't have a lot of information about.

Such as preeclampsia.

Who cares? Just like one of the highest mortality

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

And then we say to people at the time, we don't really know what causes it. But this is our best guess. Oh my god. That's like pretty much everything.

(...)

Yeah.

That's wild. So I mean, I'm just thinking back to your experience of

being someone who is in clinic and talking to postpartum moms about having

hormonal disorders, et cetera. And being so in the tunnel yourself,

it's hard to know with the first especially.(...) Totally. And also the people around you are so traumatized and in the tunnel from you. I mean,

How long did it take you to get it treated?

it definitely impacted my breastfeeding journey. I was so miserable. And every day, it was like a conscious decision to be like, I don't want to do-- I would think, I can't do this anymore. And then I would choose to keep doing it.

Were you exclusively having a pump at this point?

At the beginning, I was just because my baby was being fed by an NG tube.

(...)

But once she started feeding at the breast, then I was using a shield because she was premature. So I never had that skin to skin contact of breastfeeding. And once I was able to do that, it was better. I think there must have been more oxytocin release or something because it was less distressing for me or my symptoms weren't as bad with actual skin on skin breastfeeding.

But then I went back to work. And I

the gift and the curse of being able to hyper-focus on things.

(...)

And I would just work through my pump breaks because I was like, I'm just going to get this done. So then my supply was an issue to nobody's fault, but just logistics.(...) Anyways, I worked so hard at breastfeeding. And then my baby decided that at six months of age, she was not going to latch on the breast anymore.

(...)

And I tried all the things.

You're a midwife.

Yeah. It was not a nursing strike. She was just done.

And then I pumped for a couple more weeks. And then she started refusing my pumped milk too. And I was like,

(...)

the nerve.

(...)

Honestly,

you supplementing?

(...)

So she would take that?

Yeah, just fine.

What a weenie. Yeah, and you know what? It is totally her personality now. I was just going to ask that. Fiercely independent. And if you-- you cannot make a decision for that girl. She will do it herself. She's extremely petite. And you would think that--

if you just heard stories about her, you would think that she was such a large being. She's not. She's the world's firecracker. Oh, totally. She goes to a Spanish immersion daycare.(...) And for listeners, I am not a fluent Spanish speaker. So oh my gosh. You're probably hard on me. It's OK. Spanish speaker.

(...)

But I'll try my best.

I'll paint the picture for you-- sitting at the dining room table. And we try really hard to sit down and eat as a family on nights that we're together.

We're sitting down and we're eating. And she just looks at me and wags her finger at me. And in the sassiest voice says, me llamas mujer. OK, OK. Which I believe to mean you call me woman, OK?

(...)

(Laughter)

(...)

I mean, OK.

(...)

She also has curly red hair, which makes everything she says way better. That's incredible.

(...)

Is that from the other side?

No, we don't know where it came from. Which is really funny because I also-- this is embarrassing to say on a podcast-- kind of had a thing for redheads.

(...) (Laughter)

(...)

You didn't know about this, obviously?

(...)

Yeah, I had a thing for redheads. And I was like, I just want a redheaded kid. And then I married a guy who one of our other friends thinks I look like, which is a little creepy.

Emily and Kyle look similar, too.

Yeah. But we do get siblings are married all the time.

so my husband has brown hair and hazel eyes. We have a strawberry blonde, curly-haired kid. It's great.

A woman.

She's a woman. She's not a kid. She's a-- yeah.

(...)

I need to meet her. That's so incredible.

She's very funny.

she self-weaned herself. And I worked so hard to breastfeed.

I had D-mer. I was totally dissociated from my body and just my emotional experience, because I was super traumatized from my pregnancy and my birth.

I'm going through this NICU experience. I felt like I should be an expert on what was happening. And not at all.

I totally underreacted to what was happening in my body

before or after, during.

(...) I know all of the symptoms of preeclampsia, right?

Just ignored them until I was so sick. Really? Couldn't breathe. Yeah. Coughing up blood. It was not good.(...)

And I was just like-- And you went home during this

period? Yes. Yeah. I worked two days before then. I attended a lovely water birth two days before it and was like, pregnancy is so hard.

How are all these women just walking around 38, 39, 40 weeks pregnant? Do they not feel like they're dying?

But I just thought that was normal.

I was the world's biggest wimp. No, it turns out I was sick, right? So like--

Yeah.

At this point, were you with a midwife team? Or did you have a midwife care?

I was getting midwifery care in the practice that I worked at, which was actually an out-of-hospital practice. So I was

really exceptional care. It was no fault of my care team. It was 100% just

trying to convince myself that this is just normal to feel this way. And I hear this a lot from people.(...) I just thought this was normal, right?(...)

see people in the clinic, and I'm like, why was this happening? And they're like,

oh, I just thought this is how you feel.

Not just a-- Can you give us a quick checklist?

(...)

Oh, sure. This, this, and this, and this. Tell your care provider.

Yeah. And then, Kelly, maybe you can edit in. None of this is medical advice.

(...)

Yeah, I'll just leave that in.

Yeah.

(Interposing Voices)

Medical advice.

(...)

Yes. And anything that I say is not the opinion of my employer. Opinion of my employer, either. It's only my-- solely my own. But

things that can be signs of preeclampsia are a sudden, drastic change in your body weight that happens in a short amount of time, because that can be a sign of swelling.(...) Swelling in your legs can be normal, but swelling can also not be normal. And there are a lot of things in pregnancy that

are like that.

a headache. What mom doesn't get a headache at some point in her pregnancy, right? Or every day for some--

(Laughter)

Or even shortness of breath

can feel really normal. Exactly. Yeah. Totally.

(...)

Coughing up blood.

(...) Oh, that's when I went in. But you

know what's funny, you guys? I still did not think I had preeclampsia. I was like, oh, I must have COVID pneumonia.(...)

I have the ability

to completely overreact and

to trivialize an actual mental health disorder, be a little bit of a hypochondriac, or completely downplay what's going on.

(...)

Just the experience. Yeah. I mean, that's

much everything about my personality, though.

Your daughter doesn't surprise me as much.

Yeah, I know.

I'm no one's stocks.

(...) I'm either awake or sleeping.

There's no in between with

So yeah, shortness of breath is another one. Having a headache that doesn't get better when you take medication to relieve your headache. So if you're a headache-y person and you normally take Tylenol and your headache goes away, and then this time you took Tylenol and it didn't go away, that would be a reason to reach out to your care provider, too. As well as a host of other things, too.

Turns out I was experiencing all of them, and I would keep checking my blood pressure, which is one of the things that we know about preeclampsia as having-- also having high blood pressure.

(...)

And it would always be normal, but just under the cutoff for what is considered abnormal.

(...)

So it was a little bit of an atypical presentation.

(...)

Because I literally just think of preeclampsia as super high blood pressure.

Yeah, most people do. And honestly, even some care providers probably look at it that way.

(...)

And Kelly, you are also in the Midwest, correct?

Yes.

(...) We're really lucky in the Midwest to have pretty good obstetrical care

pretty good outcomes when compared to the rest of the country. But if you go some places in the southern states of the United States, the outcomes aren't as good. The care quality isn't as good. The culture of the care is just different. And so we're really lucky in the Midwest to have a lot of very aware and very competent OB providers, whether it be a nurse practitioner, a midwife

of multiple kinds of obstetricians, too.

blood pressure is part of the diagnostic criteria, but it's not really the whole disease process. It involves all the systems of your body that are affected by your vasculature. Mainly your kidneys and your liver.

(...)

So you can have issues with those two systems and have blood pressure that's not that crazy high.

Oh, weird.

(...)

So I'm curious,

(...) because women are gaslit all the time in the medical

system, you really gaslit yourself. You know? It's super common. I think we all do it.

(...)

I'm pretty sure women have a much higher pain tolerance, discomfort tolerance than most men. I think we've proven that. I don't have any studies that I can link

here, but I'm pretty sure I have read about this.

Are there other common themes that you see your clients or your patients ignoring or

are missed by a lot of care providers? I'm just looking for a little bit of validation for our listeners.

I think there's a lot of things that women-- not just even when they're pregnant, but even outside their pregnancy. I see a fair number of people who are experiencing

endocrine disorders, like PCOS, for example.

And not everyone with PCOS-- it's kind of like a misconception that all people with PCOS may struggle with their body weight(...) or struggle with trying to change their body size or having a higher body weight.

That's not always the case. But often people are like, oh, I should just try harder. Or care providers will just tell them, well, eat less and move more. Obviously, that's the solution to changing your body size.

just not true. It's such an interconnected system. Sometimes

to change your body size and not being successful in the way you want is a symptom of PCOS because you have insulin resistance. Your body isn't going to utilize energy the same way.

I think that's a big one.

It's very complicated. And we often just tell people, well, this is normal. Or just do better. And it's not a matter of willpower for

anything.

Well, I sometimes think women don't

acknowledge symptoms or try to get them diagnosed because we're trying to power through and not put people out or not in front of the care provider or so many reasons.

Or you're like, I don't have time because I don't have time to be sick or I don't have time to be uncomfortable because my priority is taking care of my kids or I have to go to work or

who are parents, but anybody. You have so many other things to do.

But really, if we did address it, it would do everybody a favor.

(...)

Not that I do. Back to the gaslighting thing, if you go to a care provider or your partner or your mom or your sister, enough times and say, I feel like something's wrong and enough people tell you you're fine, eventually you're just going to stop saying anything. Or at least that's been my own experience. I'm not like the people around me are trying to harm me in any way.

(...)

But it's like fool me once,

shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, something like that.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, like you only-- People who don't care about you are good people-- Yeah. Might just discount it.

But learned behavior, if you get discounted enough, you'll just stop doing the thing.

(...) Well, and it's interesting. I've noticed-- I think it's a generational thing too. I think millennials and younger,(...) there's a big theme where women are fighting for better care.

think we're more willing to take up space and use our voices to say we would like better. And I've

noticed women in their 50s and 60s in my life(...) are being like,

well, why every woman goes through this? I made it through. I did. I didn't have the resources that you have now. Why do you think that this is something that you-- it's just really fascinating. It is a cultural

Yeah, where people do that in labor all the time. I don't know if you have heard--(...) women have been doing this for 1,000 years. I can suffer. And I'm like, OK,

have a big soapbox about the line between-- OK, tell

me, because I told myself that for sure in labor.

If that is a helpful coping tool, then it's a great thing to tell yourself. But if you're telling yourself that because you want

be OK with suffering and you feel like you're not, that's when I have a problem with it. There's a line between coping and suffering. And once you cross that line, that's when I think we get into an area where we could be potentially putting ourselves into a situation where we might have some trauma around the situation later on.

Really interesting.(...) And also, since we started off this conversation with you being in a tunnel and the people around you being in the tunnel,(...) do you have good--

with you.

Not metrics, but do you have

tells or do you have things that you look for or you have your clients look for when you're trying to figure out, hey, you're straddling that line between coping and suffering. What are the differences? When are we crossing over into suffering from coping?

Oh, I just ask people.

(...)

What do you know? I use that terminology. Or I'll see that the person has

to a different place in a way. They're not responding as much when I'm talking to them.

(...)

They are staring off into space.(...) They're not hearing what's going on in the room. They're disoriented. I am not a trauma specialist by any means, but I try to be trauma informed just in the way I move about the world, not just as a midwife, but just as a human being. But

are times when I say,

(...)

it seems like you're no longer coping.

What I just ask-- I mean, that's kind of just my way as a provider in general. Just ask people.

(...)

It seems like you're not coping. What's your experience?

(...)

So what's inter-- OK, so I'm just thinking about my own delivery, which was 54 hours. And I have a history of migraines that are so insane that I--

(...)

sometimes I don't know where I am or who I am.

(...)

Vomiting, can't keep water down. I don't really get

them that bad anymore. It was mostly when I was a kid. My whole point is I learned how to build pain castles inside myself and kind of just disappear into them.

(...)

Kyle knows-- it's like a meditative state to manage the pain. Kyle knows not to-- if I'm into migraine, he knows to give me water, make sure the room's dark, whatever.

That was where I was for most of this 54 hours. I had no idea the labor was going that long because I was in that place.

(...)

And at the time, and until you just said this, I would have said, well, I was just coping.

(...)

I was coping.

For you, may have been coping, right?

(...)

But then I had medical providers,

(...)

multiple, separately after the delivery say to me, just so you know this was a medically traumatic event. And at the time, I was like, why is that helpful? Why are you telling me this?

Yeah.

So I'm just putting these pieces together right now.

Was it the pain that was traumatic, or was it the not getting to make choices around your care and being told what was going to happen to you and having a C-section and not having that be part of your preferences?(...) Was that traumatic, or was it the pain? Because those two things are really different to me.

Sure. I don't honestly identify any of it as a trauma.

Yeah.

But I'm more curious about why they felt it was-- does that make sense, like why multiple providers felt the need to identify that for me

I was just coping? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting, probably because I don't know. I don't want to-- I don't know your whole story. But

a such thing as secondary trauma either that care providers experience, where they are traumatized by somebody else's medical experience.(...) I'm not sure.

my husband is actually a trauma therapist. And so he's probably better at explaining it than I am.

(...)

Yeah. It makes it really hard.

You're formidable as a couple.

It also makes it really hard to have an argument.

(...)

(Laughter)

He's so wonderful. But sometimes I'm

like, would you just spar with me, please?

(...)

Just want to fight about it. I want to fight about it.

(...)

Stop using your coping skills.

(...)

Probably helpful for you, though, in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

(...)

Transcription Pending

I'm just hearing you talk about all this wishing that I had you as my midwife, but also just thinking, honestly,

(...)

I know it's hard to have your kids in daycare because I've done it. But your girls are going to-- you have two girls?

Yeah.

I mean, they're going to know what you're doing someday. And they're going to be like, thank God for my mom.

(...)

Truly.

(...)

I wish I had that kind of care. And I haven't yet. I'm working on it. But

Just to feel seen by a provider and really listen to and have more than a 20-minute long appointment sounds like pampering.

(...) And some of that, too, is just structures of the system.(...) That's what-- sometimes I'm like, I wish I had more time. This person needs more time. And then we, of course, get graded on our care. And it's like, this person was running late. And I want to call them up and be like, listen. The person before you really needed more time today. We don't know what's going on in their life. But I can't tell it. You can't tell anyone.

(...)

Yeah.

That's a good reminder for me.(...) Because I'm waiting 25 minutes past my appointment time. And it may be awesome.

(...)

Are there reoccurring wins or joys in your mothering journey?(...)

There's a lot of joy.

I had an art therapist that I encountered in my early to mid 20s

that would talk about--

not like gratitude. Because sometimes

have to seem really big to make it on your gratitude list. But you would call them ordinary moments of joy. And so I feel like I have a ton of those things that I'm really trying to tune into

my children especially.(...) And one of the big ones is seeing them learn new things.

just brings so much spark to my life. I love it. Even--

I don't know if you guys are familiar with those love every boxes of Montessori toys.(...) We were graciously gifted a subscription to that. And every time she figures something out, my older one, she goes, Mommy, I did it. I did it. Look it. I did it. And I just

get enough of it.

So I try and look to those things. Because there are a lot of things about motherhood that I'm like, I'm not cut out for this. That's a common theme for me. I can't do this. This is really hard.(...) It is the hardest thing I've ever done is be to mom.

Yeah.

And I think because part of it is that I don't want--

I spend a lot of time talking with other moms to them. How do other people do this? They walk around and make it seem like everything's fine. And it's really easy, especially when you see them at Target. I always see other moms-- And you're here to keep dreaming.

Yeah. Or you're there because it has to be your safe place

for the next 20 minutes. And you're going to lose it. And then I see someone walking around with four kids in their cart. And they seem like everything's fine. And I'm like, everything's not fine.

Yes.

(...)

But they've been in that same moment.

Totally.

The more we do this, the more I realize it's such a universal experience of heart.

Yeah. Or when you're walking out of the park with your kid in surfboard pose, a.k.a. under one arm screaming and their entire body's swelling, and all the other parents just look at you like,

been there.

(...)

Good luck.

That's one of my joys. I've actually really been

soaking up every minute of breastfeeding my second. It has been a vastly different experience this time. I just can't get enough of it.

So have you not had the Deemer?

I've experienced it like little hints of it a couple of times, but nowhere near the first time.

I'm already sad about the day she weans because I'm just enjoying it so much, which is a weird thing to say. Also, I should listen back to this in like six months if I'm still breastfeeding and remind myself that I said that.

It doesn't feel healing.

(...) Totally.

know this is not supposed to be a birth story podcast, so I don't want to make it be like that.

I think yours-- I think yours, too, are my trust sense.

second.

And I say our because I've been checking in a lot with my husband, too. How is this going for you? You're his trauma therapist. Yeah.

(...)

We both have therapists that we pay to help us, by the way, that are not each other.

(...)

The experience this time, on paper,(...) a health care provider would be like, this was medically traumatic. And it's actually been incredibly healing. Our actual birth experience was so beautiful. I've looked back on it so fondly.

I think we were also just so relieved that she was here and safe, and that I was safe, given what we had experienced earlier in the pregnancy.

But it was just so different. And I wasn't scared about-- I wasn't scared. I think that's a big thing.(...) I felt really hurt by my care providers.

(...)

didn't feel dismissed. I didn't feel like I needed to expend every last bit of energy I had advocating for myself, because I knew they had me.

Were there actions

that you took leading up to that point to get you to that place in that relationship, or did you just have an exceptional team?

I guess I'm wondering about two

things. First, the fear, if there are actions you took to help mediate the fear. And then also,

to trust your care team.

Lots of therapy on the fear piece.

(...)

And

really OK with saying what I needed

my care team. Or even voicing, I'm feeling scared today.

I'm feeling anxious.(...) I need to be seen again. And my care team was amazing.

And Sami Weekly, after my episode of pneumonia, just to check in and make sure I was OK.

Which is like-- Just starting at 14 weeks, they saw you weekly?

17 weeks, yeah. Wow.

Not standard of care at all. And I also knew that I was having a pregnancy that needed-- like my second pregnancy that I needed OB care.

That I likely was going to have a surgical birth again by my choice. I wanted that.

And so I sought out a specific OB provider that I knew

just--

I don't know. I hesitate to even say it, but she's super midwife-y.

(...)

And I went to her on purpose. Like it

who was assigned to me. I sought her out. I would drive

times, like 45 minutes, to go to my prenatal visits. Because that's where she was that day.

And I wish it wasn't that way. But I also just feel so thankful that I had access to get care from her and all her partners.(...) Sometimes I would be at the hospital in triage, or even the day that we had the baby. And she wasn't there. She wasn't on call. And we got care from someone else. It was equally as phenomenal.

(...)

And I mean, I don't want to make it sound like I have all of my fish together.

(...)

I don't know how to say you guys say fish on this podcast.

(...)

I don't even remember how or when that started, but yes.

But I did not have all my fish together, because the day I came home from the hospital, I definitely hit a wall. Like physically took my flat hand and pounded on the wall, because I was so overwhelmed emotionally.

(...)

I clearly

had reached my capacity of being able to cope with what was going on. So did not have everything together at all.

OK, so when you have those moments, how do you get connected with yourself again? How do you get out of it?

I'm laughing only because that's my biggest struggle. It's really hard.

(...)

I mean, my husband is so sweet. He's like, maybe you should take a minute.

Do you need to take a bath? Yeah.(...) I love to take baths. I'm a bath person.

When I'm not pregnant, exercising would be my way of

a good release and getting some healthy, helpful

circulating and not feel like I wanted to physically hit a wall.

I mean, did that help, though? That counts.

I felt great after.(...) Everyone around me was terrified.

You're way more efficient than a bath, honestly.

(...)

OK, so what would you tell your clients, like

you see someone struggling enough where they're, I don't know, like-- Hitting a wall? I guess if it's that, you're like, all right, here's the therapist number.

(...)

Totally. Are there things that you recommend that women normally do, and do they work for you?

OK,

sidebar. I just want to speak for a second about rage.

Oh, please. Yes, please.

In pregnancy and postpartum. So outside of the perinatal period, people, perinatal being during pregnancy and then in the postpartum time, like up to a year postpartum.

Outside of that-- That's all perinatal?

(...)

Even that year postpartum.(...) That always makes sense.

All right.

They would identify rage like maybe not under the umbrella of depression and anxiety.

(...)

But rage or intense irritability are symptoms of

depression and perinatal anxiety, kind of the umbrella of perinatal mood disorders.

And so it can be its own thing, but it's often a symptom of something else that's going on. And so I have to regularly remind the other people that I love in my life.

of postpartum-- can be part of postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. Can't be. I want to specify again. Again, not an expert, just familiar with it.

Yeah.

I have a question. OK, the checklist, the standardized checklist. So most women, they give birth. They go back for a single postpartum, right? Which is the biggest bullshit.

At six weeks. Six weeks. Yes. A lot happens in six weeks.

Yes. Yeah.

I'm honestly obsessed with trying to figure out a way to make postpartum healing and better for women because it's actually just absolute

I think. And it's always going to be hard, right?

There's never going to be a world in which it's not hard. But how is it hard in a beautiful transforming way, and not in just like, I need to make it through? Right.

Totally. Right. And I'm not going to get into soapbox right now, but I do want to circle back to my initial--(...) the sheet. Do you know what I'm talking about with all the questions? We're like, do you feel safe at home? Do you feel like all of these things?

Like the mood questionnaire.

I think that's the stupidest thing I've seen in my entire life.

I like that it asks you, are you sleeping too little or sleeping too much? I'm like, this is a trick question.

Like, did a man write this? No, I love that. The first time I had to answer it, I asked the nurse how to answer it. And she was like, I don't know. Just guess.

Are you overeating or hungry all the time? I'm like, yes.(...) I'm healing from having a baby.

(...) I think it's one of the most useless pieces

There is one-- Like, they care out there.

There is one very helpful question on there. And it says, are you having thoughts of wanting to harm yourself or others?

(...)

Which some people may not feel comfortable answering that question verbally. And so I have had people

that question on the paper, which

had no idea. I would never have guessed. And so that can be a helpful moment for people to check in with themselves about that one.

By the time we get to

that point, though, aren't we a little farther along than we ought to be? Most of the time, yeah. Isn't that just super escalated?

Yeah, we should probably have talked about it before pregnancy even ended.

Right.(...) I'm curious what you would add to that. What would be more helpful?

(...) I mean, I think that every

that's going through some sort of parenting journey, whether it be

the pregnant person, their significant other, their partner,

or

people are building their family in any way, so

also through adoption-- any way that this is transforming for people, they should have a therapist

some way. Having an objective party that you can regularly check in with, I think, is

beneficial. And somebody who is familiar or specializes in some way in a parenting transformative

So there are a lot of therapists who have a designation as perinatal mental health providers. That's a great opportunity.

There are free online support groups for people who are pregnant.

For mental health, we can link it in the show notes too.

The one that I utilized was

Postpartum Support International or PSI. It's literally postpartum.net. It is so helpful. They have free online support groups for people who are experiencing mood changes in pregnancy during and after. Oh, wow.

great. You have to sign a little waiver and disclose your name and your address, just so if they have safety concerns, they know how to contact you. Sounds good.

(...)

But they're peer-led, which is really cool. So it's often people who've experienced these things before, which can

allow you to feel super seen.

(...) This is cool.(...) I've never heard of this before.

They have really specialized groups. So they have--

I'm sure there's always room for improvement. But they have groups for spouses of people who have Postpartum Anxiety and Depression.(...) They have groups for the spouse if they have Postpartum Anxiety and Depression, which is also a thing.(...) NICU families for families who unfortunately have lost a baby in any capacity, things like

that. Did you just say-- It's an amazing resource.

And so really, we should be asking that not-so-helpful questionnaire to both people when they come to the visit.

And have them fill it out for each other if they're-- Oh, yeah, maybe that's-- Honestly. I'm more honest.

(...)

It's like Emily's goal-setting nights, but with the mood questionnaire.

(...) Wait, that's a good idea. That is a good idea.

(...)

First of all, we should create a better checklist, and then we should-- Yes. So outside of the useless checklist and the really useful resources you just provided us with,(...) what are some top things that you would recommend moms(...) do to heal?

I mean, physically, are there supplements you like? Would you make dietary changes?

(...)

I'm only-- I'm laughing because I am the worst person at feeding myself regularly.

(...)

It's the first thing to go for me when I'm stressed at all, or tired, or taking care of another human being. I'm like, oh, it's been a really long time since I fed myself.

(...) I cannot really--(...) that never works for me. Yeah, never ever.

That's probably a good thing. Actually, that is a good thing. It's at the bottom of the hierarchy of heat.

I actually think that if you and I, Kelly, just weren't eating, our husbands would force feed us. I think they know it's a better time for minutes.

I think it contributes to my rage.

(...)

Totally.

(...)

I mean, it would be better if we all have that village, right? Like how people used to do it, and we weren't trying to go back to work right away, and we actually gave ourselves long enough to heal from such this wild, physical, and emotional thing that's happening for both people(...) and the baby.

(...)

Not to mention this other thing that's having its own emotional transformative experience of existing.

lucky to work in a practice before the one I work in now where we had the gift of time, just because we had a smaller patient base, and so we got to have longer visits.

But we would have a whole visit just talking about postpartum planning, which was awesome.(...) That was amazing.

so we would get to talk about who are going to be your 3 AM people you're going to call if you are needing more support because you

having a lot of intrusive thoughts, or you're feeling like you need another person around, or you just can't do it anymore and you need somebody to come sit with you.

(...)

Or you just need to sleep for two hours or something like that.(...) Who's going to help you with food, where you're going to get your meals from? Are you going to make those meals? Are you going to have to order Instacart and make those meals after the baby comes? Can you make them before?

(...)

Who's going to help you with laundry or yourself? Just thinking about that stuff ahead of time so you're not waiting until it already needs to happen to be thinking about it.

Who's going to be the person that you're going to talk to if you are starting to have thoughts that aren't consistent with how your thoughts normally are, or you're having symptoms of postpartum depression?

Who you're going to talk to for feeding struggles for your baby?(...) They're probably going to come up,(...) even if you've breastfed successfully before. Every baby's different, right?

Are you going to call a lactation consultant? Who is that lactation consultant? What's their phone number? Are you going to want to search for it when you're super sleep deprived?

(...)

That's incredible.

Most of the things that you just mentioned,

(...)

I didn't even think about until I was in it.

Right.(...) Or do you have diapers at home?

(...)

I think of that, and I'm like, "Well, of course you need diapers for your baby, right?" But sometimes babies come two weeks before we thought that we were going to come. Or how many for you?

Eight?

(...)

Mine was socks. I had prepared everything, and I started getting contractions in the morning, and I was like for my first time, I was like, "I don't have any baby socks." For some reason, I didn't think they would let me take Charlie home if he didn't have socks. So I'm in contractions, running around Target, hoping my water doesn't break on the floor.(...) And I couldn't find baby socks.(...) If they were out of baby socks in

Lasso, Wisconsin.

You were in the beginning of labor, and you were running around at Target?

(...)

Oh, yeah. TJ Maxx, Target, Old Navy, socks. Yes.

That was probably a good distraction technique in labor, though.

It was actually a long labor.

Yeah, but time passed real well while you were shopping.

I don't think I have any socks for newborns. I actually don't think that--

Kelly, I commend you for looking for the socks, but also probably the most useless piece of baby clothing. No, they don't keep them on. They fall off. Yeah.

And people were telling me that as I'm calling, "I think I'm in labor. I'm buying baby socks. Why are you buying baby socks? I need baby socks."

I also have--

(...)

So there are several things that I start to get really angry at my partner about if they're not totally in order. Yes. Mismatched baby socks is one of them.(...) Because it's not about the baby socks, right, you guys?(...) No, no. No, I was never about that. And logical me, who has now taken a nap today because my baby's at daycare for the first time,

knows that it's not about the socks. But when I'm mad and ragey about the socks, I really think it is the socks. The other one is the pacifier, my poor husband.(...) So I'm an overresearcher.

I don't know if you guys can relate to that at all, but I have to like-- especially when I'm feeling anxious,

optimize things. So I have to find the perfect pacifier, the perfect baby socks, or the perfect Muslim baby blanket that the baby's going to throw up all over and it's not going to matter. Yes. And then if I'm really trying to control everything, it gets down to like, is this eco-friendly? What's the packaging like? Is it made in an equitable facility? Totally. Which I want to be able to have those things all matter every second. But the reality is that then I'm really unpleasant and I get ragey.

(...)

So I found the perfect pacifier that the pediatric dentist approved of for us, for our new baby, and I bought four of them.

Did you have a pediatric dentist for your baby?

I did because my baby was tongue tied and I needed to have a dentist do the procedure. Yep.

Which, by the way, gaslit about that too. My baby was clearly tongue tied and they kept telling me like, oh, it's fine. It's just because she's little. She'll get stronger. She'll get stronger. I'm like, it feels like someone has a vice on my nipples, but OK, I guess it's normal.

Got the tongue tie release, gained a pound and a half the first week. Oh, wow. Yep.

(...)

And it was instantly better. And I was like, oh, so they don't matter, huh?

Also, that was traumatic for me to have a part of my perfect, pure, incredible baby, like literally snipped.

Yeah.

So I'm just so wildly impressed with you for knowing that you had to advocate for that because I was told that that was likely going to need to be the solution. And I don't know if I would have had the wherewithal if someone hadn't directed me towards that solution to go seek it out.

Yes.

Yeah, I hear you.

You can take it.

I'll take the kudos.

(...)

I was just like thinking, like, should I share that with my first child,

I could see her lip was tied, which is like not super uncommon. But I had-- it was painful to breastfeed all the time, and I didn't do anything about it. And she had trouble even drinking from a bottle. And then she fell on a pacifier when she was like

months old and took care of it herself.

(...)

And that was really traumatic. That experience was like-- and my husband remembers it so vividly because it was messy.(...)

I'm sure it was incredibly painful, like mouth stuff, ow, you know? So I was like, I don't want that to happen again.(...) Yeah.

cried when the most recent baby-- when she had it done at the

our provider, kind of controversial,

did want us to do some stretches for the tissue so that it didn't re-heal. And that was horrible. But the outcome was really great. And I would do it over again.

happier. And I'm happier. And then because of the rage, I just described everyone's happier, right?

(...)

And now you have a pediatric dentist--

Now I have a pediatric dentist recommended. And she--(...) The pacifier. Oh, every time we can't find one of the four pacifiers I ordered, which are disgustingly expensive,

totally flip out.

(...)

tantrum. Super embarrassing.

(...)

Honestly, I totally get it.

And I'm glad that other people are going to be able to hear about this.

(...)

You're giving them a little gift today.

Like people who trust me.

(...)

But then my husband really, really calmly said, it seems like you're having a really emotional experience about these pacifiers.(...) Why is that?

And did you say fish, you?

I didn't have a good answer.

(...)

I tried to fight back for a second and then just stopped because I was like, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think the crucial thing here is self-awareness, right? Like this is why it's funny.

(...)

It's really funny now in the moment, I think.

Being getting that angry is not comfortable though. I will say that if you're getting that angry, you should reach out to your care provider.(...) They might be able to help you. I don't.

Every single mother is about to be really focused.

Yes.

(...)

Sometimes we need a little help.

We do.

Yeah.

I wish insurance always was good about paying for it.

Totally. And that's why those free support groups.

That is an amazing resource.

Yeah. I don't get any kickback from them. I just utilized them.

That's incredible.

Very helpful.

That's awesome. And then besides mom rage, are there any other new traits that you've developed?(...) They

this has been like actually a really beautiful way to reconnect.

So I've loved it.

I

like really struggled with some mental health stuff when I was younger. And I think that this was like

not younger,

(...)

but like before I was younger. So I was. I think it was like four or four kids.

that. I've like really had to like make a concerted

effort to work on my own stuff.

And that's thanks to my partner. Also my husband,

does really push me to.

(...)

I think that's, that's what I'm doing. I'm doing a lot of work. And I think that we both continue to work on our own things that are going to help us bring more.

To our marriage in general, which for the past two years has been really difficult.

(...)

I've had to work on all of that stuff.(...) The other thing is like letting go of control. I am like a huge control freak. Which I think makes me good at what I do. Right. Like.

I want to make sure I'm getting all the information about something so that I can use all that information in a way to like make informed decisions.

But I've like had to let a lot of that go just in my own life. And as a mom. And I think some of that was like the circumstances of how our first was born. And then I still thought it, you guys. And I think that's what I'm doing. I'm like,

going to

try and like do all these things to like do it perfect. The next time sort of a thing.

eat the right foods and take the right supplements and exercise the right way and. Modify my body size and it's all it's going to fix everything. And then the universe is like, I'm going to get control over getting pre-eclamps here when my baby was born. But I'm going to try and like do all these things to like do it perfect the next time sort of a thing. Like I'm going to like eat all the eat the right foods and take the right things. And then the universe was like, I don't know if you heard me.

(...)

You can't control everything. Or actually we don't have control over much of anything.

(...)

And then I got pneumonia when I was pregnant and like was so sick from a cold

almost dead like critically ill.

Something that should never have happened. Not on my radar at all. And then I still tried to control everything.

And then again, they were like, no, no, no. I really don't know if you heard me.

(...)

Like this baby is coming early too.

(...)

I don't think it's corny at all. When you say my husband and I, the core value of our marriage is to help elevate each other and be our best selves.

I think

marriage that I look up to and I, these are people that I, in my community that I grow from as individuals and also grow from learning about their relationship. That's a core tenant of why they're together.(...) Yeah. And I think when you're strivers, when you're,

know, always in pursuit of better for yourself and each other, that's just part of your personality type.

Yes, it's a control issue, but it's also like, okay, well, I have to take responsibility and agency for what I get out of life. Right.

Totally. Yeah.

They're, they're definitely connected. So it's not necessarily just a control thing. It's like, what am I just going to like sit back and let it happen?

Yeah. And I mean, I think there's some things that I've learned to sit back and let them happen. Not about my marriage because to be honest, like after two Rocky pregnancies, it needs a little TLC right now.

my relationship. Yeah. Cause I have not been the easiest person to be around. Like,

I experienced perinatal rage. That doesn't make it like pleasant for the other people around me. And so like, there's definitely some rebuilding and some

up that that means and some love,

And with parenting too,

I would have loved for my kid not to fall on the pass fire, but also now she knows,

know, fish around and find out a little bit.

(...)

Like there's some things that just have natural consequences that you just have to

it ride. Yeah.

Yeah. And thanks for

normalizing the relationship piece. I just, I don't know anyone, anyone who says that their relationships like just fine or better after their

birth, I'm kind of like, are you delusional or lying?

both. Yeah. It's really hard because I think one of the things that like, I spent so much time now after my second,

(...)

I wish I would have maybe acknowledged it sooner, like acknowledging the huge transformation that it is to become a parent.

myself that I forget that it's also happening to my partner.

and that it's. A huge transformation for him too. Like his life has also changed and probably a little more suddenly than mine. Like I had a little bit of a buildup in like the ways that my body was changing or a preview to be like, this will never be the same again. Things are pointing in different directions.(...) Um,

Okay. Can I tell

you guys a funny story? And maybe a listener listening

to this will know who gave it to us. But the day I came home from the hospital, there was

a cooler bag on our front porch of pulled pork, like home smoked pulled pork. Like this was not bought at the grocery store. It was also like an insane amount. Like I don't know if they bought half a pig and smoked it, but it was like so much pulled pork and King's Hawaiian rolls and a huge Costco thing of barbecue sauce. Like it was clearly

intentional that this person was bringing us food that we could freeze so that we could nourish ourselves,

which is really sweet and no card, no text, no phone call. We have no idea who the mystery pork is from.

Did you eat it?

Oh yeah. It was, I mean, did we smell it a little more like keenly than we would have if we knew who it was from? Yes. Did it cross our minds that this could be tainted mystery pork? Yes. It's terrific.

(...)

was this intended for someone else? And I just stole somebody else's mystery pork. Like.

I'm still worried at times. Yes.

Amazing. That is great.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That is great. Thank you.

guessing it's from someone in our neighborhood who doesn't want to take credit for it, but thank you for the mystery pork.

oh, the other thing that having kids has taught me part of my matrescence is like realizing that the world's very interconnected in a way that I didn't really understand before. Like it's provided me a little bit of like spiritual realization and I didn't grow up in a house that really

that in any way. And so it's been kind of cool

be experiencing that tied into my matrescence.

I didn't like obviously share with my neighbors that I wasn't feeling super connected to my husband. Like that would be, I didn't really told anybody that not even my husband.

And I was going for a walk and this like really magical neighbor of mine who

very in touch with the stars.(...)

hippie.

(...)

She's like talking to me about her daughter who just had a baby and then starts going into like her advice from new married couples who had difficult pregnancies. And I'm like, how did you know this? Like you didn't even know I had a baby or that I was pregnant.(...) And she starts telling me, she's like, yeah, like if I could just give people who are having a hard time in their marriage some advice, it would be to overlook the shortcomings and compliment the strengths. And I was like, started sobbing because the reason I was on a walk is because I was raging at my husband.(...)

So

it was like,

I was like, you don't know how much I needed to hear that today. So when my husband's eating cereal and crunching way louder than I think is an appropriate amount to crunch the cereal, I tell myself to compliment his strengths and to overlook his shortcomings

in a mantra like fashion.

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

Transcription Pending

(...)

Okay.(...) Katie, what makes you feel beautiful?

Okay, I've thought about this question a lot.

(...) Whoa. Good.

Because I don't have an answer.

(...)

Why do we keep asking this?

Because it makes people think, and I think it's a good reminder to maybe think of the things that make you feel beautiful and make them happen.

feel like... I'm going to be making this tonight.(...) Does that make you feel beautiful, Kelly? I think so.

(...) Until it starts to chip and then I get rageful.

(...)

Yes. And we're back. Sorry, back to you.

So like a kind of superficial thing that I can do to feel beautiful, like on the outside is I like to get facials from this one specific lady at a place that does facials quite far away from a house. But it's worth the drive because I look so fishing glowy after.

(...)

But I can't afford to do it very often.

So I love to get a facial to feel like materialistically beautiful.

But what makes me feel beautiful as

whole human, like holistically, even on the inside is when somebody else can take something off of my mental checklist without having to ask them to do it or having to tell them that it was on my mental checklist.

(...)

So it's really unrealistic because I'm asking them to read my mind.

So I'm learning that I might have to

on my own thing that makes me feel beautiful and just tell

people what's on my mental checklist and that I need help with it.

Yeah, but that's a heavy hitter. So like if you tell the right people enough times, they just intuit it and then you don't have to say it anymore. And then it's like magic in the future.

That would be my preference.

(...)

Does it manifest that way? Probably not.

I mean, yeah, we can manage expectations here, but you never know.

totally.

That's a good one. I love that.

Oh my gosh, this is too fun.

You guys, I'm going to say thank you and sign off. You guys keep chatting. My four year old is done with this

matresin's conversation. So, yeah, he

Yeah. Thank you, Katie.

Bye.

So

nice to meet you.

Bye.

(...)