Episode 32: Crunchy, Scrunchy or Silky? + Wisdom from the Women Who Shaped Us

Ever wondered what makes Cally and Emily tick as moms? In this episode, they flip the script and do a deep dive on some of the questions they usually reserve for guests.  They get vulnerable about their mothering  experiences (what else is new around here) and also take a listener question. Is your money on them being “crunchy," "scrunchy," or "silky" moms? Tune in to find out, and stay for the actual meat of the episode: multigenerational wisdom from their mother and grandmothers.

Main Topics & Discussion

Hosts in the Hot Seat: Motherhood Styles Revealed
Why are the topical categories of “crunchy”, “scrunchy”, and “silky” defining parenting philosophies and social behaviors of millennial and gen Z moms everywhere? The crunchy vs. silky mom debate is tough for some, but easy for them to decide where they fall.  Their honest admissions about motherhood expectations versus reality will have you feeling seen and validated in your own parenting journey.

Generational Wisdom: A Motherhood Legacy
The *fish* that truly matters in this episode is the highlight reel from conversations with the women who shaped our hosts. Cally and Emily share precious moments with their mother and grandmothers, revealing how these matriarchs influenced their own parenting approaches. These intergenerational perspectives on motherhood show just how much (and how little) has changed across generations. 

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Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Hi, all. In this episode, Emily and I answer a listener question and then a few of the questions that we ask many of our

guests when they're on the podcast. And then we've pulled some of our favorite clips from the amazing mothers that have shaped us. So you'll hear from our mom and you'll hear from our maternal grandma, Nancy, and then our paternal grandma and O'Leary. So we hope you enjoy and we will list the episode numbers before each of those clips. Happy Mother's Day.

Hello.

(...) Hello.(...) How's your day? Oh, we are prepping for a birthday party. So exciting.

Charlie bear.

So cute. I know. I'm so bummed we won't be there.

(...)

You know what? It's just one of those things we have to start ripping off the band-aid. I know. Can't be at every niece and nephews everything. But we'll try. Forever and ever. Forever and ever, amen.

(...) Absolutely.

(...)

So this episode will air after Charlie's birthday

and right after Mother's Day.(...) Happy Mother's Day, everybody. Happy Mother's Day. Thanks for being here.

Yeah. Thanks for being part of this community.

And

for being the best mom for your kids.

(...) Yeah. Which we all are. We are all the best mom for our own kid no matter what kind of mom we are.

No matter what kind of day we're having. A.k.a. Emily's day today.

(...)

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's go into what we're loving and what we're. Is difficult about motherhood because

mean, listen, what I'm loving is I just had a phenomenal morning. We went to this garden center and just he just wanted to smell all the flowers and like touch everything. So so cute. He was so sweet. He was flirting with everybody there. Busy because it was like before Mother's Day,

you know, you know what Nora does. She rips the dirt out of the pots. She goes for the dirt. Yeah, like she goes past the flowers right past him. Charlie flowers. Nora dirt.

(...) I mean, that's check out. So he's like, let me touch the foliage. Let me like so much my little face and I just loved it. It was just he actually has opinions because he's like, oh, this looks way cooler than Mac. We go see that. You know, it's just so cute. So it's from loving

is difficult is coming home and making him a lunch. Like I actually put sugar in his lunch today, which I don't do. I made a bit peanut butter and jelly quesadilla. Yeah. No cheese. But like between tortilla. Right.

never gets jelly. He doesn't get sugar from me. And he wouldn't. It was one of those lunches where we totally just like

twenty five minutes, dumped the plate, cleaned the tray off,

started over from scratch.

(...)

How rude. Just so rude. It's been happening more and more. Some days he'll surprise me and eat spicy things and love it. Like he's into kimchi. But other days,

hello, you don't like sugar. I mean, I'm glad.

Except for no, because sometimes you really need a peanut butter and jelly. Next time you're on a hike, you're going to want a peanut butter and jelly. It's actually exclusively

the only time I want a peanut butter and jelly. So good. So gross. But on a hike. So good. 100 percent. OK, I just did both of mine. So what are you loving about mothering and what is difficult this week?

I'm just loving the weather, like the fact that the kids can just be outside and so muddy and dirty. And as much as I hate when I have to deal with that in the house, it's just so happy. We're all just here. So yeah,(...) that's fine. Yeah. Kids. I do think what's difficult is probably all of the mud and the dirt and the outfit changes and like ruining clothes and you know that I mean, you do have a

little in between between the backyard.

I mean, you have multiple stairs.

We strip down in that little mud room.

Yeah.

Yeah. We strip down. Then we proceed. But you're just like changing clothes all the time. My kids have just been in pajamas all day because they already got them dirty right away because they had to be outside. I was going to like stop them. I'm trying to make breakfast. No. So now they just have dirty pajamas that they've been in. Oh, no, I take that back. Nora's been wearing Charlie swim trunks.

(...)

And they keep falling off her butt

like today. Four year old Charlie swim.

Yes. No, he just got them and she likes them so much that she had to wear them. And how is Charlie doing with this? You know, great. Actually, he thinks that's funny. Oh, yeah.

A prince. He's such a prince. He had the first grandchild. I know.

So today we're going to start by answering a listener question.

(...)

Yes.

(...)

And so those of you who've been texting us, we love it. Thank you so much. It totally makes our day. A reminder to all you listeners who don't know about this feature. If you any platform for me, you're listening on Apple, Spotify. There's a little like send us a text. If you click that you can text us text us suggestions for

or like, hey, I'm running into this difficult thing and my mother and could you address that or send us recommendations of who we should interview.

(...)

Constructive criticism always accepting that too. So we love to hear from you. And this listener in particular from Oshkosh, Wisconsin. These are anonymous. We can't tell who they're from. We just get the little city. So

one from Oshkosh is big. This one from Oshkosh has been fun. We've gotten a few texts from this mom. I assume you're a mom. Sorry if you're not.

(...)

But you go if you're not. We just stick with it. Totally.

oh, first of all, she said that you really remind her of Amanda Seyfried. Oh, thank you.

(...)

I couldn't agree more. 100%.

Oh, and quick note, links don't show up. So if you want to email us links to articles, et cetera.

please email us. I don't know why they don't show up on the text, but the email is the real mom hub at gmail.com.

The question for us.

Are you a silky mom, a crunchy mom or a scrunchie mom, which

we had to look up because we weren't quite sure.

Yeah, I had to I had to get some help from Chachi P.T. on this one,

which was like a fun like, yeah, it was a fun like almost like those quizzes used to take and like 17 magazine, you know, sitting on your friend's bed, like in middle school to do that.

Yeah, actually, like I kind of want to take one for what kind of mom I am now.

There's got to be one out there. Okay. Send us a what kind of mom are you quiz? Scrunchie, silky, crunchy. They'll take it. I love it. We've sort of self-diagnosed, though.

Yeah, yes, totally. I'm just going to go through the definition that Chachi P.T. gave

quick. So a crunchy mom,

(...)

she's the queen of compost and colloidal silver,

(...)

breastfeeds until kindergarten, makes her own elderberry syrup and considers epidurals a government conspiracy.

(...)

Where's her baby and her values on her sleeve, usually linen, sustainably sourced and hand dyed with beet juice. The beet juice, a little extreme Chachi P.T. That was a little, little extreme, but I think we get the picture.

Yep.

(...) A silky mom is formula fed and fabulous, lives for a stroller with cup holders, a scheduled C-section and a glass of chilled rosé,(...) thinks sleep training is self-care and wouldn't be caught dead with cloth diapers unless they're on somebody else's baby on Instagram.

(...)

So savage.

(...)

And then a scrunchie

mom is just in between the two. So a scrunchie mom is stuck between a rock and a Costco, loves essential oils and epidurals, might pack a bento box for preschool, but also microwaves dino nuggets without shame.

(...) She's a

little crunchy, a little silky and a whole lot of just doing her best.

(...)

Raise your hand.

(...)

Okay, this is what I realized after we sort of did our like, you know, deep dive into what are we,(...) I think, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, I started like I entered motherhood on the crunchier side. And I have balanced out to be more scrunchie, but I definitely like gained more silky traits than I thought I would. I think you approach to motherhood silkier side. Yeah. And I think you have adopted some crunchy traits.

Yeah. Isn't that funny? It just fun. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're saying we're both scrunchie.

Right? For sure. 100%. 100% just doing your best. I think most moms.

Yes.

(...)

Yeah. But I think I was a silky individual more so before I had Kieran and then I had Kieran and I was like,(...) I'm sorry, what's in that? What's in that skincare? What am I? No, no, thank you.

Like, I--

(...)

We won't do it for ourselves. No, maybe he's not getting sugar.

No, maybe he's not getting sugar.(...) Yeah.

Jelly?

(...) Jelly? Are you kidding me? He doesn't need that.

(...)

Yeah.(...) Scrunchie it is.

I also love Costco. I love Costco. So-- Oh, this is what moms can text me. I'm so jealous you have one. Text me your favorite things to buy at Costco.

Especially convenience foods that aren't terrible for me. Yeah, I will say-- Text me that.

Yeah, my scrunchie, just parameters for my scrunchiness.(...) If it's like this long, I'm sorry, you can't speak for too many-- You're on a podcast.(...) There are too many ingredients.

(...)

I'm not buying it. I'm not even going to read them.(...) And if I don't understand what they are, I'm also not buying it.

That's it.

(...)

So if you have some convenient foods from Costco that have short ingredient lists that are clean, you can go to Costco.

(...)

You just let me know. I'd love to hear about them. That's so funny.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so we're going to answer another little set of questions pulled from what we often ask moms in our interviews.

(...)

Just like a little Happy Mother's Day.(...) Let's do this deep dive on ourselves because we never do it.

I mean, like we ask our guests to go really deep and then we're just kind

of like sitting on the side.

Yeah, we're like, oh, tell us all your stuff. Yeah.

(...)

It's easier that way. Okay, so Emily, what shocked you about motherhood?

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(...)

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(...)

I did not know that I was going to come home from the hospital and not recognize myself for two years.

(...) I didn't know. Physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally,

(...)

all. All of it. Two years. I mean, I'm still-- But you're not quite at two years yet.

No, I'm not.(...) She's still building. So we are reworking. We are reworking. We are two years people.

(...)

Yeah, but I didn't know. I didn't know how insane that first year of motherhood was. I didn't have a normal recovery, I think.

(...)

I

I was crazy for a whole year.

(...)

I had no idea that was coming. I had no idea that I would reevaluate, renegotiate, redefine all of these different pieces of myself that I had been confident in for years.(...) Yeah. So still working on it. Yeah.

What shocked you about motherhood? Mine shook you to your core.

I think mine really shines a light on the fact that we didn't really plan to start as soon as we did. Mine was purely like the huge responsibility.(...)

came out and I was just like, I'm just floored. I felt suffocated. I'm like, I am in charge of keeping this human alive and flourishing for the rest of my life. I mean, to a point,

(...)

that was astoundingly overwhelming for me.

Yeah. I mean, you watch moms do it, but I mean, until you come home from the hospital with no manual.

Yeah. And it's--

It's constant.

(...)

And you don't, like when they're in your belly, like it's so different. It is so different.

I'm just a little lost for words.

I remember being pregnant and choosing where I parked differently downtown in a city than before. Sure. Sure. Yep. That's true. So you get a little taste of

self-preservation.

(...)

Yeah, that's true. Or even like it's already affecting your sleep and like, yeah.

But yeah, totally different when

bring that sweet thing home from the hospital.

A little anecdote. Charlie was asking me how babies come out this morning. Oh, good. Out of bellies. Sure. I mean, great question. Yeah. I mean, I just said, I said, actually, they come out and you have a vagina

he's heard that word before, but I don't know. Like he's almost four. And I guess it really, he loved it today. So he's been saying. What does that mean? He loved it. Oh, he just loves to say it all morning. Oh, he loves the word. Vagina.

Vagina. Vagina. Oh, and how many people are you having over tonight for a birthday party?

Like, oh, I think over 30. Good. Good. He's going to have a good stage. Good obvious. Yeah. But then he like wanted to know, like, he's like, well, what's a vagina? And I was like, oh, it's a canal. You don't know what the, um, it's like, it's like a, it's like a tube. It's like a tunnel from your belly tube.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

All right. Anyways, that's not what we're talking about.

(...)

It's that I'm glad you had a kid first.

(...)

All right. Ready? Next one.

(...)

What reoccurring joys or wins have you experienced in motherhood?

think the joys are constant.

(...)

My life got so much harder when I had a kid. Like I, we've talked about it before. I'm less happy. My happiness skills going up now that he's a little more

but

definitely was deeply unhappy,

which made the spikes of joy throughout the day. Just so

Yeah. Incredible. And the joy was new. That depth of joy, just watching him exist was insane.

(...)

Also, as I was just, I've been sifting through these pieces of my self and figuring out what stays and what goes, what I'm, what I've forgotten, what I'm rediscovering.

All of this fish that just really didn't matter is kind of go into the curb. It's like a big old spring cleaning. I think that's a big win. Big trash day. Big trash day on my personal audit. Oh yeah.

(...)

If it's not serving my family and me, it's out.

Yeah.

I think mine is just like forcing me to, hmm. Cause I don't know that I'm winning at this. I think the joy though is like forcing me to slow down and just try to experience that childlike joy. Cause that's so outside of my personality.

I mean, it is. Am I wrong? You're laughing. Am I wrong?

just such a doer. I don't like stop.

You are a

doer, but you love to cultivate the joy for your children.

Right. That's yeah. Why it's so good for me. Yeah. I mean, I love being joyful around other people, but like just for myself, the only thing that I do that's just like joyful and on do something for myself is like

Nature's like the only thing that could really get me there before kids. Okay.

I think.

Interesting.

(...)

I know. Maybe I'm just like talking out of my butt, but I think it's true.

So are you saying that you now experience more joy full stop or are you talking specifically about the childlike joy? Like you experienced those

things.

It's that one. That's the one that I'm like learning how to experience. I feel like with my kids. Like I would say I had moments of like glee and happiness and joy before for sure. Like I'm an extrovert. Like with the people I love. Yes. But just like in a quiet moment, like that childlike joy, that's what I'm like really sort of coming into with my kids.

(...)

that's cool.

(...)

We're working on it.

For forever and ever. Amen. Yes, we sure are.

All right. Here's the hardest one.

Ready? Okay. Can we talk about why is this so hard?

(...)

For everyone to answer. Like this of all the things we've talked about with our guests, this is the one that stumps them. Why do you think that is?

I mean, it's hard for me because

there's like societal expectations of external

internal like validation and self worth, I think. And so most of our guests and I found myself doing the same thing stumbled over like,(...) well, this person does that for me. But is that the right answer? I don't know.

That's my take. What do you think?

I don't know. I think I've noticed it's I used to really prioritize looking good and feeling good. And that was great self-care for me.

(...)

And that was nice to have jobs I had to show up well

(...)

And

I think

I have to set aside time to put myself together and also invest in a place or an activity where that's necessary.

(...)

And that's just not where most of my time and energy goes these days.

So it's like a free frame on that experience.

Yeah, but and we're so focused on nurturing others.

Okay, if you're not a regular listener, can I please say the question?

(...)

Yeah, what's the question?

(...)

What makes you feel beautiful?

Yeah.

I mean, I think in motherhood, like it forces you to look internally and figure out what,

feelings of beauty versus outward

beauty because,

frankly, it's not always possible to look.

Glamorous put together.

You know what I think it is. I think it's what you expect out of your lifestyle and the kind of support you ask for.

You don't always feel like you look beautiful.

Not 24 seven. That's what I'm saying. But I also could be making different choices right now.

So like,

what are things that make you feel beautiful, even if you couldn't put on makeup?

Oh, I mean, in that case, Kieran does. He's in this phase where he just reaches out for my face all the time and he smashes his little face against mine and he just grins.

(...)

Kyle makes me feel beautiful, of course. And honestly, it happens more in moments where I haven't done anything to put myself together because he's so great at recognizing those. But I'm always like, yeah, thank you. I know. But, you know, it's the

times in between when I feel terrible and he'll say something that I just,

(...)

that really does it for me.(...) I feel beautiful.

when I'm around my sisters and my mom and I think

it's because I. That is a good one. These are faces that I love so much that are similar to mine. That's so true. So when I'm surrounded by my family, like my genetic,

(...)

we look similar. And so I just love my sister so much that when I see myself in the mirror, I'm like, oh, similar. You're part of this. And I feel beautiful then. That.

Is fascinating.

(...)

I feel the same way.

I also feel really good when I put an effort and I look good.

You know, yeah, I mean, honestly, when I have a little bit of time to really put into how I look and feel like it honestly makes my whole day different and often a good way. Just like in a self worth like I'm showing up for the world. Remember in grandma's episode when we asked her why she how did we ask it something like you're always so stylish and like put together like how have you, you know, maintain that in this like crazy life of yours. And her answer was like, oh, it was never for myself.

(...)

I just feel like that's respecting other people, too.

(...)

I mean, it's definitely for myself when I feel good. I can't say I'm as altruistic as that, but. But I do think it's yeah, just like showing up and.

Respecting everyone around you and yourself as a mom and.

I think a huge one for me is just being strong physically. Yes. Yeah. So like when I do a workout or when I'm taking a long walk or going on a hike with my kids and like when I can baby carry like that just makes me feel super powerful and beautiful.

(...)

Beauty.(...) Inner beauty, outer beauty.

(...)

Everything in between.

(...) Mom's is so complicated. Mom's are beautiful.

(...) Yeah, we are.

All right. Every mom go listen to Bette Midler's I'm Beautiful rock out feel good about yourself.

That's our that's our Baba's pump up song. Oh yeah.

I just heard a huge crash and I'm hoping it wasn't my dog eating the cupcakes.

(...)

So wrap this one up. Okay. Okay. Good luck. Thank you. Got you. Love you. Bye.

Transcription Pending

(...)

So you are talking to a fresh generation of budding matriarchs. What is one trait of womanhood that you hope we cherish?

(...)

I hope you cherish receptivity, receiving, receiving babies, receiving people home,(...) receiving new ideas.

(...)

I'm taking it all in.

You're receiving it well. That's a great question.

(...)

Yeah, I'm just sitting with your response, too. Why do you think that was top of mind for you?

I think it's an essential quality of the feminine genius of womanhood that we are designed to receive. It's just part of who we are uniquely.

(...)

And Emily, can I handle it?

I just went on that. And I was back to hieroglyphics of like, the womb is a vessel.

(...)

Yes, I mean, she's not wrong.

(...)

That was such a beautiful thought. And I'm sorry, I wrecked it.

We should have left it at the what a great question. Thank you. Here's the next one.

(...) A theme in my marriage right now is I think there's just so much going on. We're a little overwhelmed. We're in a new season. We're not always receiving each other's words at a most basic level. And so I was just wondering if you're in a season, mom, where you're focusing on receiving more, if you feel like you're a master receiver.

Am I in a particular receptive season? Oh, yes. And yes, and that there's more quiet in my life. Okay, for sure. I can process. I can be I think more open because it's a quieter season.

(...)

Overall. Yeah. I think it's a reality all the time for women. Well, I think at some point, John Paul to send something to that effect in his writings on some genius, and he wasn't wrong.

Like, okay, we've received and received and we're receiving and you know, what do you what do you do with it when you have it?

Sometimes like,

you're nothing nice things. Why?

Sometimes you just receive and say with whatever it is. Sometimes you make a connection that helps you see what someone needs or what to do next. Or sometimes you reflect back what you received, because someone needs to see it. They can't see it in themselves. I mean, babies, you receive them, you take care of them. That's what the real mom hub is about right now. But you receive the other moms you're building into this community, wherever they're at. Sometimes you respond.(...) Sometimes it's enough just to receive.

But the amazing thing is I look at the way that I was parented and think, "Gosh, I hope I can do it that well."

You are doing so many things better than we were able to do.

(...) But that is our wish, right? I mean,(...) that's our wish for the world.

(...) Right? To let go of the junk and the baggage that is harmful,(...) and just to run in the freedom of who we truly are and are made to be.

How do you feel that you show up for women?(...) Or even has there been a time that you can think of that you show up really well for other women? On the flip side, is there a time that you can think of when women have showed up really well for you?

(...)

Yes, both and.

(...)

I think it is natural for me to be aware of what others are struggling with or carrying, and to be encouraging and supportive. I think I'm able to not dodge hard things,

(...)

but acknowledge those with friends or other women. And so I think that is one way to be able to check in and say, "I know you're struggling. How's that thing going? What are you learning?(...) How can I pray for you?" We have a great charism for hospitality as a whole family, and that's something that's been wonderful to see that transfer generation. I mean, somehow grandma was like that. You all are great at opening your door and coming up with a great meal and having people feel at home in your home. So I think that's a great way to show up for women, even if it's not necessarily having them here, but just saying, "Let's be together. Let's just sit over here and be together." That's a good one.

(...)

Homeschooling was a great way for me to support and share strengths and talents with friends and other women. Yeah, and likewise, there have been people that we've never lived by family. So whenever we had babies, it was friends who brought us food, friends who took the older ones where they needed to go. So we've always had to cultivate and rely on. So part of cultivating a tribe, I think, is that vulnerability of leaning on people and letting them sacrifice for you.

(...)

And that's hard.

Transcription Pending

to do a belly.

(...)

Did Grandpa buy you that?

He wanted firewood.

(...)

Wait, you have the record player. Didn't you just say the record? I got my record player, yeah. Yeah, Sabi needs the record.

(...)

I met your New Year's Eve outfit,

(...)

but what are you talking about?

(...)

It's good exercise. It is, that's true.

(...)

That's so funny. Okay, my question is, what makes you feel beautiful? I don't think about that.

(...)

What?

(...)

You're so...

(...)

Yeah, that was one of the ones. I think what makes me beautiful all the time. Yeah, but I do smile and I'm not on the bed. Look at you see. Sorry, I do, it's not hard.

(...)

You're so silent. You have a belly dancing.(...) You've always been so stylish. Thank you, I appreciate it. Yeah. So why were you doing that then? If not, to feel beautiful.

To dance?

(...)

No, we know that was for exercise.

(...)

No, you're cool. You've always been so put together. Thank you, I appreciate that. Thanks, guys. So weird as I come from. Loni goes through my class and I have a lot of time to do. I have, so many times and I love it every time.

(...) Thank you.

Come again.

(...)

Well, so how do you put that much energy and you have such a good eye and all that time and effort into making yourself so presentable? Why do you do it if it doesn't make you feel beautiful? If you're not thinking about feel beautiful.

I'm not thinking about being beautiful.(...) Whatever I do, I do because of the people I'm going to be with also. It makes me feel good if I present well to them and I thought I remember that they are human beings. I have fun in like lobbies downstairs. Most of those people don't even think that you're going to do anything or be anything or that you're even there. And if you speak to them, you know, they just most of them just brighten up and they're so excited to think somebody recognizes that they were here. So I don't think about the other aspect of it.

(...)

And we've talked about the word village, wanting to build our village of women and people, but women specifically, and how we're not as good at that in our generation(...) as I think your generation was. Because I think we have a harder time being vulnerable with people. And so it's just our generation, and I don't know about yours, amounts in the background.

We did not have television. I was out of high school, and we got a television set at our house.

We did not have the cell phones that they have now. You had to get on the public phone and ask the party

line to get off, so you could make a phone call.

(...) It was just a whole different world than your children are growing up in. And I don't know how you can build competences with people that you're not having really just a one-unit gathering with them that's not going to go home and get on the phone, or the phone's not going to call in the interim, or you're not going to pick up the computer and think, "Oh, we talked about that this morning. I don't need to talk about it now." I don't know if you live in a whole different life of electronics than we do, and it's not just you.

It's your whole family.(...) I mean, it's everyone you're associated with has this whole interruption of life that we

did not have.

(...)

So it's, yeah, I can see it would be very difficult

to build a family of women like that. I don't know if you're blessed to have sisters

(...)

that you can discuss things with, and you know that

they're background, and they're somewhat similar to yours, not completely, because each one of you have had different experiences and handled them different ways. So you have a different interpretation of life. So you are blessed with that. To find a very dear friend and everybody moves a lot now, which they never used to, so to develop and retain that relationship,

How did you find your pre-group?

We had children at St. John's High School,

So we were put together actually through having our children together in high school. It was six women at that time,

So you, I mean, these women just walked with you through so

many things in life for so many decades. Oh, absolutely.

(...) Did you have things in common with them, do you think? Like, I'm thinking about friends you'd call

up for a good time to go to the pool with you.

We ended up with-- That relationship, were these women, did you have friendships outside of the prayer group too? Absolutely, because the women I went to high school with, we had a group of women from high school, and there were five of us in that also, and we always celebrated New

Year's Eve together.

If we had a husband by then or didn't, had a male friend or didn't,

(...) it was the men and women who gathered in this group, from this five women, that gathered every New Year's Eve for New Year's Eve celebration. It was a formal dinner, we had a standing rib, the men wore tuxes if they had them, the women wore

beautiful gowns. I love it. And we did it every, you didn't have to worry about what you were gonna do on New Year's Eve, because you knew you had it gathered and you

had that outfit that Grandpa bought you. A crop shop, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was black. It showed the way.(...) It was a little like a lollipop.

It was.

Gorgeous. Yes.

(...)

Beautiful. Yes. He picked out for you, and you

said, "Well, we'll have those for New Year's." And I was like, "Well, that's not the kind of New Year's "I usually have."

(Laughing)

One had a jacket.(...) Oh, okay.

(...)

(Laughing)

(...)

It was gold, broke a jacket.

(...)

I don't know what I did with the jacket. What, it was a jacket? I don't think I ever saw the jacket. No, but oh,

I always see you. She did that. You didn't see me on New Year's Eve, that's why.

I did. But you knew if it was gonna be at your house, that this is, you do it with this tan, it was a standing wrap up with them.(...) Always the same menu.

(...)

It always, it was just very, very comforting and

easy.

(...) But you didn't have to think about reservations or where we're gonna go or who we're gonna be with or where you could be with anybody.

(...)

Because some people are,

I have found later in life and just in

the past maybe five to 10 years, that there are so many lonely people in the world that we live in.(...) And I think because of modern technology, they

can only become lonelier because they don't have gatherings

like they used to have,(...) the afternoon bridge groups, the afternoon teas.

(...)

And I'm just, I feel very sad that they are lonely, not even within the group of people their age, but within families. I go out to take care of your aunt Marmar.

She is in a place of, she has dementia and she's in a facility.

(...) And they have happy hour every Thursday. And you know where your grandma is on Thursday afternoon.(...) Absolutely. She said happy hour at St. Clair.

By going out, Aunt Marmar has been there four

years. By going for four years,(...) some of these women and

men, men and women at happy hour have become my friend.

(...) And because I am the only odd person they see, the only person they

don't have family visiting because I've been there at different times and no one's ever in their room. There's never any sign of activity in these rooms.

(...) So it was about, I don't know, a month or two because of not feeling well, I missed the afternoon, Thursday afternoon gathering. And I was amazed when

I went back the following week, how many people, where were you?

(...)

We missed you. So looking in, there are a number of people, as soon as I walk into the happy hour, I wait and give me my wine later. But I speak to each and every one of these four people in wheelchairs that

I feel are lonely. How can you be in a community with people

and be lonely?

(...)

And they are, because they don't have any family coming. There's not a lot of interaction between the young people that are working there and the people that are residents

there. And most of the residents

are not at the age or in the disposition to be friendly with the other people there. Yes, so I just, just the past number of years, it makes me feel sad because there are so many lonely people and there's no need to have that many lonely people. But I can't send my friends because half of them are dead.

(...)

(Laughing)

(...)

So when you look at your life now versus when you were that little girl, does it look the same as you thought it would look? Did you dream, you know, about where you would be in your 80s?

No, I always have had goals.

(...)

Goals for what we're going to be doing as a couple, goals for me, some things I wanted to learn by a certain age, but they were always loose and flexible because you always get thrown curves. You could only plan so much and then you get kind of a slap on the wrist and say, "Oh, you really think you have this plant?" Well, don't think so. So I pictured that, I guess I never pictured how enriching and rewarding it would be to have all of you grandchildren be part of our lives and want to be part of our lives. That is a gift beyond measure. It just is. I couldn't have conceived of how wonderful that is because I didn't know. And that is, I'm in a perfect spot.(...) I really am. Grandpa and I still have fun. We laugh together even if some health issues come up, we're dealing with it. So truly,(...) I can't complain anything about my life. I just can't. I'm lucky and very, very blessed. Not lucky. It's a blessing.

(...)

When you talk about those goals, even if they're flexible, do you remember what some of them have been?

Some of them were learning goals. I had certain parts of history I wanted to learn.(...) And then when I decided to become a docent, we had... When I was in college, I was a sociology major and an art minor. I started out in the arts and sciences and switched to education.(...) Bad move for me. But anyway,

(...)

I had goals of what I wanted to learn about history. I had goals about what I wanted to learn about art.(...) I wanted to work better on my Bulgarian because my mother was so intent on speaking Bulgarian that she would speak Bulgarian to us, but we weren't expected to speak Bulgarian back. She wanted to speak English back. So I worked on... I couldn't have a conversation,(...) but it isn't as fluid as listening to Bulgarian. It was no different than listening to English.(...) So goals like that, I think.(...) And then we had travel goals. That's when we got half-tentable travel. It was wonderful.(...) Pack up the kids and hit the parks. Go hiking, hit the mountains.

(...)

Okay.

Something that I didn't understand until the last couple of years though. So we grew up camping. We had a lot of friends who grew up camping.

(...)

That was weird when you were raising kids.

Yes.

Can you? Kelly. Wait. I never have thought of this. Oh, wait. Baba, tell Kelly the lengths you had to go to to just take your kids camping for the first time.

Oh yeah. There were no camping stores in town.

(...)

We joined REI probably 55 years ago. And then LL Bean had two catalogs. A winter catalog and a summer catalog. So I had to go through REI and LL Bean to get things. So I called up LL Bean and I said, "Normally, I know I have to send in a check and this is what I want and you'll mail it to me, but I can't get this gear in town.(...) Can I set it in the mail, I check the mail right now and you can mail it to me?" They said, "Oh, sure."

(...)

Wow.

(...)

You could not get camping gear in outdoor activities, especially for a female.

(...)

I had friends that said, "Well, when you're backpacking, what are you doing? You have to go to the bathroom." Or what do you do if it rains?

(...)

So you've been born and raised in Toledo, Ohio.(...) And then you're like, "I want to go...(...) Why did you want to go sleep in a tent in the middle of nowhere with your children? Why was that even a thought if no one else was doing it?"

Well, you know,(...) my dad absolutely loved nature and experiences. They had no money.(...) So they would take us places to have experiences. When my dad came here, he ended up being a waiter at Bear Mountain Inn in New York. So when I was in sixth grade, he took us there, then he took us to New York City,

(...)

and he took us to Washington, D.C. because we're Americans. You have to see Washington, D.C. We couldn't afford a plane ride. So to go to South Bass Island in Lake Erie from Park Clinton, Ohio, you got on something called the Tingoos, this tiny little World War II airplane.(...) And you took a 15-minute ride over to the island. And the closest mountains were the Smokies. So he took us to the Smokies. He loved nature and outdoors, and he really passed that on.

Where did you stay when Dad is taking you all over in the Tingoos? Where do you sleep?

(...) At those times, there are lots of ma and pop, very, very cheap places to stay with the bathroom down the hall.(...) And then you always went to the store and had your own food. You did not go out to eat. And so it was very inexpensive to do it that way. And those modes of travel for families are gone now. It's like B&Bs have become this elaborate big breakfast thing now instead of an economical thing like they were before.

(...) So I guess I'm connecting now. Baba Bureka and Dadu were, I mean, in business terms, you just call them industry disruptors. Like they, you know, I just haven't thought about this. The guts that it takes to choose a complete unknown for you yourself or a new life for you something that you know, you're going to build on opportunities, but you don't even know what they are. I mean, that was kind of built into their DNA as soon as they made the choice to come over here, I suppose. So then for Dadu to say, well, I'm going to take my kids to the mountains and do all these things, probably societal norms were less constraining to him. I mean, he just saw the thing, did the thing, figured it out.

(...) Oh, absolutely. And he would get maps out, take us all over it. He could. He loved it. That love of travel and nature, he just embedded in me as.

(...)

When you think of the word matriarch, just going back to Baba, what feelings does that bring up?

(...)

Wait, no, my mother was a wonderful, loving person.(...) But for years she wanted to make me into something I was not, and that caused a lot of conflict.(...) It really did. She wanted me to be this very proper, very quiet, very...(...) She wanted me to be exactly what she wanted me to be instead of what I was. And that was difficult. And even as a very young...(...) By the time I was in high school, I said, "If I ever have daughters, I'm not going to do this."

(...)

So I feel sorry that my mom never let go enough that she could become my friend as an adult.

(...)

And just relax, know that I could do things. It's okay, because I have a blast with my girls and my daughter-in-law, your mom. I have such a good time with them. And she never had that opportunity.

(...)

And that makes me a little sad for her.

Do you remember when you were a kid the first time you realized that there was friction in what she wanted for you and what you wanted? Or maybe the first time you felt really female in a way that, well, Uncle Donald can climb this tree. But is there a moment that you recall realizing something like that?

It just always seemed to be there. Once I became cognizant of roles,

(...)

it was an early grade school. Absolutely. Here is this woman who came from a country with no electricity, no indoor plumbing. She comes to the States, didn't know anybody, no language, no anything except her aunt who had immigrated here. And she has this rebellious daughter. I feel sorry for her.

Yeah, I was going to say, you don't seem to have any bitterness.

(...)

No, absolutely not, because she was a wonderful woman. She did the best she could. And she was so wonderful to everybody. She really was. So no, I'm not the least bit bitter at all. I still had a wonderful childhood. Loved all the Bulgarian dancing, all the traditions.

But my dad also was an uber proud American.(...) And my mom came here, I think I told you girls, it was an arranged marriage. No, they exchanged letters, they exchanged pictures.

(...)

And in 1937, she came over on a boat to marry a man she had never met.

(...) And she didn't get to choose, right?

(...)

She did, but her mother strongly encouraged her to go because in the area of Bulgaria she lived in, they were still living like a medieval society where they would have their homes and then walk out to the fields. And then there was the village center where they could all gather and do things. And Orthodox Church was a big part of that. And I had a wonderful big brother. He was always there for me.(...) And when girls say, oh, I would love to have a big brother, they only wanted to have a big brother if they had mine.

(...)

(Both Laughing)

(...)

And I think that was a big part of it too because life was very stressful for my parents. They came here with nothing, absolutely nothing. And my dad was older when he had us, he was in his 40s. And he came here with a junior high education,(...) went to night school to learn to read and write English. He knew more American history than any college American history major.

(...)

And, but his jobs were tough. He would work at the Orthodox. He would work in the shipyards and sometimes he would get laid off. And those were very, very scary times. And he also got seriously injured on the job twice. And that was scary. It really was. And it was tough for my mother to come here with no language skills or anything.

(...)

So there was a lot of stress in our lives too. It still was a very rich, rich growing up for me. I thought so even at the time.

Was that something that you think you inherited(...) from Baba Bureka and Daru? When you talk about holding the stress of injuries and layoffs and uncertainty, but also at the time feeling so positively about your situation, was that just part of your household makeup or do you think that's more you?

I think more me.

(...)

My mom, life was stressful for her and everyone on the outside thought she was this happy go lucky loving person, which she was. But things were also tough for her too. But she was a terrific, wonderful mother-in-law.(...) Never said one thing against your grandpa. Never said one thing against my sister-in-law. Not one thing. That's a great mother-in-law. It was total support.

That's actually, Emily and I have talked about how you and grandpa have been the example of just being support and not saying anything negative about marriage or family or the way that you are parenting or that you're in a relationship. You two just really have been the example of how to only be supportive.

Oh, I hope so because you kids are all terrific and you have to go your own way. And I don't want you to do what I did. You'll do your thing.

(...)

I don't think we could recreate it if we tried.

(...)

Sometimes I do try and I'm like, oh man.

Oh no, you all are doing great. I absolve myself of all responsibility.

(...)

It's a good feeling actually.(...) It really is to have confidence in your kids to raise their kids and now you grandchildren to raise your children. It's a good feeling.

It really is. Extreme generational wealth.(...) Yeah, extreme. I mean, you can't, you can figure out how to go after money. You can figure out how to get after fitness or you can read books about health or how you should be nourishing your body with. But you can't, I mean, you can do the best for your partner and your children and your friends and your circle, but you really have a huge headstart when you're not undoing all of the generational baggage that has traumatized you or your parents previously.(...) I mean, there's no replacement for a strong foundation of love and support. I don't think.

I think you're absolutely right, Emily. And I have said so often, I really don't know how anyone functions(...) without the love of support of family and friends. I really don't know how they do. And so many people don't have that, which is why we have always tried, even when we were very, very young, to give back in some way to the community because we have just been so extraordinarily blessed.(...) We really have been. And it's not because we are these fantastic, wonderful, virtuous people. We've worked hard, but other people have worked hard and they've just been dumped on.(...) And we really have not. We just have had one blessing after another, after another, after another. Plus we still like each other after 60-some years. That's a big deal.

Yeah.(...) Yes, agreed. I called you last night and you pick up the phone and I was like, "Oh, Baba, how are you? Oh, I'm just trash and grandpa over here."

(...)

(Laughing)

Well, they have to keep it spicy. How about when Sadie got engaged and we're at Camp Sisu and we're all holding hands. We're all on like, you know, little cousins, aunt and uncle, whatever, William was just proposed. And Baba goes,(...) "And I pray for Sadie and William that they have plenty of fights." And we're all thinking, "What?"

(...)

That they have plenty of breakup sex. Or not break, sorry, they have plenty of makeup sex.

(...)

I forgot about that.

(...)

(Laughing)

I forgot about that.

(...) Oh, I sure didn't.

(Laughing)

Well, they did have five children, Gallen.

(Laughing)

(...)