Episode 33: The One for the Mom Ready to go from Burnout to Breakthrough: Tapping Into Your Inner Wisdom with Caitlin Ruby Miller, LPC

Do you struggle to find to your inner truth? Feeling burnt out but can't pinpoint why? In this episode, licensed professional counselor Caitlin Ruby Miller joins us to explore the messy, beautiful journey of transformation. Caitlin brings a refreshingly authentic perspective on healing that doesn't require a therapy session (though would highly recommend). Grab your earbuds for this one – it might just be the permission slip you need to finally put yourself first.

Main Topics & Discussion

Finding Your Flow State in Motherhood Chaos

We dive deep into the concept of "flow state" – that magical place where time melts away and you're fully immersed in what you're doing. Caitlin reveals how this psychological sweet spot isn't just for artists or athletes; it's accessible to moms too. Flow state just might be the mental vacation your mom-brain desperately needs. 

Recognizing Burnout Before You're Toast

Doomscrolling before bed? Feeling disconnected from who you are beyond "mom"? You might be experiencing burnout. Caitlin breaks down the warning signs that are specific to motherhood burnout and offers practical ways to recognize when you're stretching yourself too thin. Discover why resilience isn't always the answer and why the "just push through" mentality is actually making things worse for modern moms.

Accessing Your Inner Wisdom 

Caitlin introduces us to Internal Family Systems (IFS), a transformative approach to quieting the anxious voices in your head and finding your authentic inner wisdom. Caitlin shares accessible ways to start healing—the path to transformation might be simpler (and more enjoyable) than you think.

Connect with Caitlin: Professional Bio, Psychology Today, Inclusive Therapists, Therapy Den | Instagram/Substack: @femchantment / Femchantment.substack.com | Podcast: Counselors Craft a Curious Path /

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Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

but we're closeted boomers.

Oh, my God.

Okay, I need to introduce our listeners to you. We have Caitlin Ruby Miller with us. She's a licensed professional counselor.

(...)

I'm so excited to dive into her expertise surrounding transformation, helping people go through transitional periods, which with matresence and our whole theme, like becoming moms, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, this is a heavy hitter." I'm just realizing, "Oh, I think for the rest of my life, I'm in transition as my kids transition." That's what I'm mostly curious

about. Big oof. We're going to talk about all

kinds of things related to mental health and for the moms out there.

(...)

Maybe you don't have the time or resources to apply to therapy weekly.

(...)

Join us for the next hour or so as Callie and I go on a little therapy tour ourselves. Thank you so much for being here, Caitlin.

Yes, I'm so excited. Thank you.

Would you tell our listeners a little

bit about what your practice looks like, what your work looks like today?

(...)

Yes.

(...)

I came from a music background and opera.

(...)

I decided to transition to doing therapy. A lot of my clients have some artistic inclination.

I joined a practice a few years ago that I absolutely love called Effective Artistry.

We are based in Illinois, but now I'm

serving clients in Illinois and Wisconsin. I live in Wisconsin now.

(...)

Effective Artistry,(...) which is insinuated by the name, we usually work with creative people,

which can

lawyer,

(...)

activists, union folks, all the way to like, "I'm an artist and it's my full-time thing." But a huge thing at Effective Artistry is we focus on neurodiversity, which is essentially the concept

doesn't exist. Mental sickness, mental illness doesn't exist, and it's the natural diversity in human beings in their behavior versus anything that is inherently wrong with them and will be wrong with them forever.(...) It's a way to

against the stigma that people-- and I could talk about this for like seven hours, but the stigma that people carry inside of themselves when let's say they're diagnosed with bipolar or major depressive disorder or things like that.

Most of our clients identify as being neurodivergent, but I think neurodiversity affirming therapy helps everyone.

so I personally work with--

usually the youngest would be like 14-year-olds up to like 65, and people who identify as neurodivergent usually have some creative backgrounds.

(...)

It's interesting after interviewing more and more guests, and I do a fair amount of podcasts listening, a lot of motherhood right now because that's my phase. My face.(...) So many people have said motherhood

brought out this desire for creativity and this spark for creativity,

(...)

I don't know why that is or what the science of it is, but it's a common theme of even non-artists just like wanting to get creative from that transition.

(...)

Yeah, I'm thinking

might be a little bit of like a heady segue, but the divine feminine about like creativity and that the ultimate creation is the act of like getting pregnant and carrying a child and birthing a child. And although that's not like a scientific study that shows why mothers get creative. I love it.

I'm feeling like earth mama power.

(...)

Yeah,

Yeah, I think there's something so creative inherently in women,(...) and I think it's a thing that everyone can tap into, but I feel like there's a power in that that is really special.

Yeah, I mean, I think I don't remember which episode it was, but Kelly, you and I, I remember I was in Seattle recording with you and I was just like, "Yeah, if I'm not creating something, I'm not interested in the activity since having Ciaran."

Mm-hmm.

not even manufacturing, but if there's no creative process, if something

not been transformed by the work I'm doing,

(...)

yeah, I'm just not super interested as a mom currently.

I wonder if that's like a shift in values after feeling like everything changed after having your child. I don't know, like the values are like, I want to make a difference. I want to create something and I'm not interested in something unless it's making a difference in some way. Hmm.

(...) Oh, I never connected it to difference, maybe. Like if we're creating, we're taking multiple pieces or disconnected things and we're creating something new. So there is, we are creating a different, I never thought about that,

What are some of your favorite ways that you use creativity with your clients? How is that helpful to you as a therapist? Yeah.

(...)

In sessions, because we, I primarily do talk therapy,

there's a creative approach to therapy called IFS, which is internal family systems. And it's essentially talking to parts of ourselves.

(...)

So I would say that's the most like explicitly creative intervention, but then we talk about how to integrate creativity into their lives and how that can intersect with identity is that feeling of like, there was always this thing that I wanted to do since I was young. And maybe I like tried to play by the rules and went to college and got the job and did the thing. And now I feel more like empty and my identity is transitioning and sort of like a quarter life or a midlife crisis. And then it's like, well, what do you want to create in the world?

then a process of kind of integrating that into their lives.(...) So I feel like there's an identity in it of like accepting that it's something that you want and have wanted for a while. And then there's like the practical element of it of like implementing it. So what does it look like to start integrating creativity into your life? And I've seen clients like recover from burnout and transform like their daily routines and also work on, I've worked with like a new mother in particular on,

now that everything has changed and you're not working and you're pretty much a single parent, like what could spark joy in you and activate a part of you that

you a lot of meaning. And

actually re-approached doing watercolor. And I can just see like the brightness on her face after showing me a piece that she's done of like this level of play(...)

and making art feels so good as like a part of her week outside of

care of a child.

(...)

What's the brain chemistry? Like what happens when we are creative? Why is it so good for us?

One way to describe it is we get into a flow state, which is a type of

focus that all human beings benefit from and flow state is thought of as an intersection between skill. So it has to be something you're skilled at and also focus in the moment. And so that for many people is like one of the most joyful states you can be in. So like for example, I have

formal training in singing and when I'm singing and also very focused on singing, it feels like I am as present in the moment as I possibly can be as like a conscious being. And

so much relief in that to not be in the past, to not be in the future and just to be present. And so flow state can happen for people who might not identify as being creative, but it's typically associated with

and creative people.

Yeah, it's getting a lot of press the last handful of years.(...) Flow state, I mean, it's just in common vernacular, I feel.

can be really healing. Like if you're worried about the state of the world or you're like doom scrolling on social media, if you can kind of get back into your environment, be present,

access some sort of flow state, like whatever feels authentic to you, that can just be

really nice sort of like restorative thing to do with your day.

So I have a funny story about this.

I've always thought about flow state is something you would need to do

on your own, kind of like an individual. But as you were speaking, I think I feel that when I teach choir to a group that is working well with me, maybe not public school, but like of this current part, that's great. Yeah, I did that.

(...)

And

past weekend, we had a concert and I've like been really dramatic about this story, but it is funny. And I think I was in a flow state while you're saying this.

an hour before this concert, I find out that long story short, I need to sight read and conduct sight read, sing and conduct string ensemble.(...) While my choir is singing, I taught them a little bit of it, didn't know the whole song. Your choir who by the way, like, can we get an age range here? Six to 13 year olds. Oh, they're like, it's through music school. So they want to be there. But like, hey, that's my age range, right? High school string players plus a couple of ringers.

(...)

The song is in Hindi.(...) It's in seven, eight.(...) So an hour before all this comes to light that like, not only do I need to conduct this thing, I also need to like sight read part of this duet in Hindi. I don't speak Hindi. I didn't take Hindi diction. Like I didn't take it. No, that's not. Yeah, that's not a part of the curriculum. So it happened. And honestly, like, you know, when better than it could have in the moment, it was fun. It was like that adrenaline, like creative energy of like, I'm skilled at this. I can do this. It's great. I didn't realize what a flow state I must have been in until after when all these moms come up to me. And the first thing they have to say is, I can't believe that. Like, what? This boy pulled wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, pulled his tooth out.

(...)

Middle of his performance.

(...)

And then turned around and is like showing all of his friends. I had no idea. I was in my flow state. That is amazing.

(...)

Wow.

(...)

Yeah, I feel like I feel like certain choirs, you could probably only know this if you like interviewed each person in the choir after the performance, but could be like a communal flow state. That's true. That's real.

Because they say your heart beat sinks.

(...)

Seriously?

(...) Yeah, not wild. That's amazing. When you sing together.

That's cool. But yeah, and what an amazing thing there because it's like being in community with each other, connecting with other people, which is like great regardless of being in a flow state and then adding a flow state to it. And then if you're performing, like sharing the beauty of all of that with an audience, that's like amazing.

(...)

Wow. I'm going to stop complaining about it. Lucky me.

Well, also how powerful that

you access to flow state, even in that context

that child was so inspired by your flow state that he was like, it's time. I'm taking out my tooth.

(...)

We're here.

We're here. Get the tooth out.(...) Okay, so creativity, I think we'll talk about this a lot. It sounds like I'm just jiving with it. I think we can exhaust the whole episode on this, but I do want to come back to(...) the transformation piece. So what I was hearing when you were describing using creativity with your clients is they come to you and they're saying, this has been my life up to this point. This is where I thought I'd be. This is where I actually am. There's a big gap.

(...)

So are they coming to you saying, I am in a phase of transformation. I need help with this. Or are they coming to you typically and saying, I don't know what to do with this gap between where I, my ideal state and where I am currently.

(...)

Actually, it's usually sort of a third, which is I'm incredibly burnt out. I have no idea what to do. And I have been trying to just push through this and force myself to continue my life this way, which usually, usually the burnout is from like a job or career, but sometimes it's from a relationship or co-parenting. Motherhood. Yeah.(...) Motherhood. Yeah. And,

(...)

and I think they usually come to me hoping that there's a solution where they can keep giving everyone around them what they want and just like sort of magically summon the energy to be able to do everything. But usually it's a process of like grieving the limitations of their energy and process. Yeah, it's heavy. It's heavy. And then figuring out,(...) usually there's like an identity development piece, like what do you want? And I mean, women are not taught to even distinguish what they want, let alone track it, let alone ask for it, let alone ask for it multiple times, like all of that.

all of that, then making like tangible changes that sometimes like disappoint the people around them. Like it could disappoint their like husband or spouse or partner or it could disappoint their workplace.

(...)

It could disappoint their idea of what being a good mother means and what it is, you know,

So then processing that. So I think the word that usually starts it is burnout. I think transformation is like a much more empowering way to frame it. And I think it's a useful way to frame it, but transformation isn't usually like causing the level of distress that they're like, oh, I want to find a therapist.

They're not like, I'm in transformation. Help me. They're like, I'm so burned out. I have no idea how to wake up in the morning. I mean, yeah, that makes this a much more painful place to be. Could you

me some classic

for burnout?

will go with like how I perceive it because I think clients sometimes perceive it differently. But usually the things are

they're working, they barely make it through a workday. And when they're done, they're pretty much just like sleeping or vegging out or doomscrolling.

less sleep or too much sleep, usually like using substances more. So like if they like to drink, they're drinking a lot more.

feeling isolated socially from other people,

feeling tired almost all the time, not feeling connected to their identity anymore. Like I don't even know who I am. I just keep doing this. And this could apply to like matrescence as well. Like I just keep doing my daily routine of taking care of my child. I don't even know who I am. Like who am I?

for women, there's more like sadness and like beating up themselves. Usually for men, there's more anger and blaming it on others.

(...)

But so sometimes, particularly with

like femme clients, I'll be like, hey, maybe your life isn't just about you just need to be better and then it'll get better. Like maybe you live in an environment, whether it's like systemic racism or something like that. Society, your neighborhood, it doesn't always mean like your husband or whatever. But like an environment that I don't know could be contributing to this.

and I think burnout, like the way clients usually identify it is like, I just really want these things in my life and I just can't make them happen and I feel broken.

It's interesting. I think I had a brief foray into the corporate world and before I entered, I thought of burnout as being like, oh, you went too hard. You were working 60 hour weeks. You just literally burnt yourself out with too much.

Notice the word of you. You burnt

yourself out.

(...)

Yes. And then

I think there's the company I was working for was putting a lot of resources into like kind of a conversation. And I think I was scrolling LinkedIn more and my definition of burnout kind of changed to like, maybe you're working less. It's not about output necessarily. It's about

is taking the wrong kind of energy. Whatever is draining you of your sense of self, how to turn that around,

Yeah, not all hours are created equal. And for some folks, the process of being like,

oh, this aspect of motherhood drains me the equivalent of like five hours of this other aspect of motherhood. So I think part of it too, like when you mentioned energy is like,

that can happen in a minute can take as much energy as something you enjoy doing takes like three or five hours. So yeah, I think that's part of

from it and figuring out like a sustainable path forward is usually getting other people to do the things that are draining you or no longer doing them. And sometimes that's changing your standards. Like maybe you aren't going to be the type of mom who looks this way or does this thing, or like maybe you won't be the type of worker who achieves in this way. Okay.

let me kind of summarize. I'm hearing symptoms of burnout are basically apathy or not being able to enjoy other pieces of your life outside of this thing.

Yeah, that's, that's often how clients would describe it. And to me, it's more of

no energy and the radical acceptance of how little energy you have, and then rebuilding how you manage energy, which involves like behavior, emotions, as well as like, sometimes it can be spiritual as well, identity.

But yeah, apathy is a very good word to describe burnout.

(...) And so what's causing the burnout in most cases is that two individual(...)

the most general answer that I've found is usually an extended period of time where when the person looks back, because sometimes there needs to be like a reframe that their energy lowered and lowered and lowered and lowered and lowered until it hit a point where other people started to notice. And then usually it hits another point where whatever their behavior is significantly changes. So like you used to

this amount at work, and now you do 10% of it and you get put on like a performance improvement plan and you get threatened to be fired or like your significant other is like, I feel like I don't even know you anymore. Like, who are you? You know, like,

So usually to me, it's like a decline for some people to decline is steeper than others. And I feel like matresence and having a baby can would be an example of that, like an extreme change in routine identity energy to be like,

whoa, what just what just happened? But typically, it's over time

of it. And then it looks different for different people. So

think I have something here that's like helping me process.

I don't know, just stick with me on this.(...) So I used to be a public school teacher. After COVID, they started us on this book club that we always had to do during in service, which is when like teachers have work time, they're supposed to, but it's often like BS meetings, whatever.

So they were like, here's the limited free time that you have. We're actually going to dictate how you spend.

Yeah, you actually need to read this book outside of school and then you're going to meet. And this book was all about resilience and how that's actually what teachers need is more resilience. And that's how you're going to be happy and fulfilled. And that was honestly one of the first times where I was like, I'm super about resilience. I'm like a very gritty person. I'm very much about like self help. This is a load of bullfish. Like that's the first time I was really realizing like, I don't think this is sustainable for me.

It was so easy for me to look at that and realize that was wrong

and realize like it's not sustainable. And look at all the older teachers who are about to retire, who are angry and don't care anymore and just like see all of the problems. And those people are all caretakers. I mean, especially the elementary teachers, like they are caretakers, right? Every day for eight hours without any breaks.

(...)

But now I'm thinking about it. It was so easy for me to say this is not an environment that's sustainable for me. But motherhood often looks a lot like that.(...) And we tell ourselves like we just need to be resilient. And a lot of that is true still. And obviously like you're not getting paid, but what can we do to change that environment

(...)

to make it work for you? Like just hearing you say that just really hammered home, like, you know, help and village and just like actually saying this is not working for me, even if it's working for that other mom and I am as resilient as I can be. And maybe some other help would be good.

sense, but it was good for me.

I love that so much. I think

it's worth highlighting a couple of things from like your experience as a teacher. So

think the concept of resilience is useful in some contexts, but in that context, essentially they were saying,(...) teachers, you're the problem. You need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and like be better because the system has nothing to do with how hard it is on you. So like that to me is a really disgusting way to use the concept of resilience. I feel like, yeah. And so I think it's amazing that in that moment you were able to acknowledge like something about this feels really strange and maybe it is the environment. Because I feel like as women were like trained, it's like always us. It's always us. We could do better. So and that's another thing about the teaching profession is like the kind of abuse of the way patriarchal norms are taught.

So yeah, so resilience within some contexts, I think, can be a really helpful

tool. But within that context, it's essentially like nothing that we're doing as a school system is wrong, but you just need to be stronger, Callie. And then you'll really enjoy being a teacher. Yeah, you can just figure this out.

it's interesting with motherhood, how

(...) you know, maybe almost every mom, I don't want to say literally every mom, but it's not a job you can leave.

I think in that way, sometimes it can be even scarier to like admit that, oh, it's not just about me like being more resilient as a mom, like maybe to a certain degree, that concept helps me sometimes. But like, it's not just all that. It's not just all me.

yeah, essentially, like the two different concepts are one, lowering the energy cost of the things you're doing every day, which is more like practical, it might be like cutting things down, automating things that relate more to like you and just your behavior. But then the other part, which usually almost always has to happen in tandem with lowering the cost is being in more community with people. And if it's

community with other moms, or you're just feeling like validated, and there's like a catharsis to that, but usually it is literally other people helping you with the things that need to happen to like keep the household running to keep you in relative health to take care of the child or children. And so it's been interesting with clients to see how hard it is to acknowledge that more help could even be useful. Like not even the sentence, I need more help with the sentence like, oh, more help would be nice. Like sometimes even that can be hard. And then to implement asking for it can be really hard, particularly when people get the answer. No, like, oh, I thought my mother-in-law would babysit once a week. But when I asked her, she was like, well, I'm not going to walk into that messy of a house. You know, like things like that where it's like you finally like ask for it and then you don't get it.

it even when it feels good to get help. Sometimes there's also that feeling of like, well, I could have just been doing this on my own and then maybe this person wouldn't have to help me and then processing that. So, yeah, it's

are very much conditioned that

we should be able to do everything on our own and any unhappiness or dissatisfaction is the thing we should fix ourselves.

And look at where that's gotten us in modern society.

(...)

Not so great.

(...) Yeah.

talking about tweaks that you could make to your lifestyle is what I'm hearing. Number one, like what can you automate? What can you outsource

what could you simplify

(...)

Also, you know, how can you ask for help? What do you need? You know, how help sustaining in terms of your own wellness.

So those things sound kind of constructive to me, like you're constructing a new reality.

So is this all moving us towards a sustainable way of living? Is that the end goal? Are you redistribute if we go back to the energy conversation because the burnout happens when our energy is not used correctly? Are we just redirecting, reimagining? How would you?

Yeah, sometimes I think of my work with clients as like being an energy director, but that can sound woo, which it honestly is.

(...)

But yeah. And one of the beautiful things about building more community and like redirecting energy is that there are ways that then those clients give to others that feel sustainable to them. So maybe they like have a huge heart and they this this is the example coming to you, but like they love to just go like all out on holidays and it brings them joy to do that. Like they find joy in creating a space where family comes to celebrate a holiday and they just have a blast. Maybe if they're redirecting their energy, so the things that cost them a lot that burn them out aren't happening anymore, they're being done by other people, then they can go back into that identity of like, I love to create an experience for people I love to celebrate. And then those other people benefit from that person giving. So that's another beautiful thing about it is like,

you stop giving in ways that are unsustainable and like take almost everything out of you, then you can shift to giving in ways that other people really enjoy getting and is sustainable and much more joyful. So I

I think because women usually over focus on how can I give, that's a thing that usually happens later and work with clients because we just give and give and give so automatically.

(...)

But yeah, that's a thing of like what brings you joy in giving and giving energy and how beautiful that can be for the people around them to be like, wow, you have like that spark back.

But yes, Emily, that was a great summary.

I think that I love your channeling energy to give to others because

the end of the day, I think we're losing a little bit of that in 2025. I don't think it's a value. I think it's a value that more grandparents find important universally

it's important to do, to be part of society.

(...)

and giving and the joy of giving

beautiful and necessary. I think what you're describing is like we've tilted way too much one way, so now we're trying to correct it, but we're like over correcting and then it becomes,(...) I think what you're picking up on is like, oh, my grandparents do this differently than how my generation is approaching this. Plus Gen Z.

I was just gonna say we can tilt, I

think, too

far. Like when we look inward too much and we focus too much on ourselves and we don't shift the lens to then look at others,(...) what's the point? Oh, so you have a really great understanding of your inner self and you're doing all the self discovery, but what does that do for you if it's not helping you show up better for the people? Oh, yeah. Isn't that the whole point is being better to be around for the people around you? Like if we're just limiting it to myself, me, me, me, me, me, my needs, my wants, my boundaries,

(...)

that's when Gen Z tropes start rubbing me the wrong way.

(...)

you're describing the therapies industry version of over correcting, which is like, we've said yes, yes, yes for two logs and now we have to say no, no, no. And we're saying no, no, no with the concept of boundaries and like, but yeah, I think it's a different form of over correction that Gen Z just happens to be encountering in society because they're the young ones right now trying to figure out how to be like young adults. But

think they really want to be in community. They're very lonely. They want to feel valuable. I mean, not all of them are very lonely, but many of them are. And feeling like a loss of identity of like, what am I even going to do in this world? How could I ever contribute? And then getting so apathetic that it's like, I'm not going to contribute anything. Like, there's nothing's worth it. And so I feel like healing some of that

apathy and sense of like, like total isolation, even if they're around other people, just like a total isolation is part of like, oh yeah, I actually do want to help other people and make things and be in community. But it takes

getting out of that apathy and sense of isolation. And this is me trying to get you to like Gen Z more. I know I find it more compassion.

I have

Gen Z friends that I love deeply. We have two Gen Z sisters.(...) There are a lot of phenomenal things about that generation. And God, did we come under fire when we were entering the workforce. You remember millennials back in the day and now we're running the world. So whatever.

(...) I don't know, but I don't think we're running the world. Not really. I know. We are. But I think if you wanted to talk about it more, you could skip the Gen Z part and you could just say something about like, our society has been overcorrecting to like me, me, me and no, no, no.(...) And now we're going to like a middle of like no and yes and me and us. So that would be a way to like talk about it. That doesn't involve like Gen Z.

(...)

We love you Gen Z. We do.(...) I would you describe there too, as tension. If we're saying no, but yes, but no in a way that's good for me, but yes to you because I know you need it. That's just tension. It's tension. It's give and take.

(...)

Yeah. Holding both, which isn't that just motherhood all the way. I mean, music and creativity, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's always tension or a little bit of a rub, I think, before we get to a breakthrough or where the goodness is in life.

I think burnout when you're in the middle of it can be really, really hard to

(...)

figure out that like that's what's happening to you. So you described kind of characteristics or behaviors that might cause you to realize you're in burnout or cause others to realize you need to seek help.

Do you have a rubric or kind of a framework for helping your clients identify which pieces of their life are using up too much energy?

Sometimes I'll give them sort of like exercises and I try really hard to not say like you have to do this and you have to come back to the next session, like with this like homework done, but more of like, this is a thing to consider before the next session. And it'll be like, as you go throughout your day, check in with your body like once an hour and see where your energy levels are at. And if you see a big change note, like if it's a change a lot higher, what did you just do? If it's a change a lot lower, what did you just do? Notice what tasks are the hardest for you to do. Notice what conversations with people in your life are the most draining. Like, are you taking a nap afterwards? Are you more likely to like grab a glass of wine? Like, are you doing things that you'd like to do less of as a way to cope with the stress?

(...)

And then usually with prompts like that, for some people it takes multiple weeks because even like tuning into their bodies is hard, which is totally understandable.

But they get to a point where they're like, okay, I've noticed that like this person conversations feel the most draining. This work task

the most draining. This aspect of motherhood feels the most draining. And then to start pinpointing like, okay, how can we reduce that? And often that's how can we do more of something that you enjoy, as well as

can this task be done by a different person if it's a task that like needs to happen.

we'll play around a lot with the words like want versus need.

And then also standards of like, a house should look like this, motherhood should look like this, a good worker should be this good, an intelligent person should sound like this.

I guess that would be like some version of a rubric. And I've had some clients take it like really seriously and come up with like numbers, which has been really fun to be like, oh, this was like the like, one person did a spreadsheet.(...) And I think we said something like if we arbitrarily say there are like 100 joules of like internal energy, which is completely subjective, but like energy per day, like talk about like plus 10 minus 40, blah, blah, blah. And like, they had a spreadsheet. I loved it so

much. Yeah.

(...)

And then they were like, okay, this was negative 40. And then they had it in categories like this was like negative 40 to negative 80. This was like negative 20 to negative 40. This was zero to

negative 20. And so

I'm going to prioritize. I know they're, I love my clients so much.

(...)

And then like, this is what I'm going to prioritize because these were like the energy like suckers. And then also the ones that were plus 80 to plus 90. This is what I'm going to try to replace it with. And that doesn't mean it'll happen, but like it helps with prioritizing.

(...) So, but it depends on the person. Like for some people, an intervention that's that specific can be like really overwhelming. So I just kind of figure it out based off of where the client's at, how specific to get.

I kind of do it now.

Yeah. I want to do, I know I love to say, yeah,

I definitely am experiencing burnout. It's getting better, but I've known that for a while. One of my(...) cues is like, I will listen to trashy trashy romance on audible.

(...)

And when I'm in my energy, like that's how I zone out. And that's how I kind of disassociate frankly, and numb.(...) So if I'm feeling like in my life, I'm honestly like that writing is terrible. Like we know how the plot ends. Like I actually don't want to consume it when I'm in a healthy place. That's true. When I'm not in a healthy place, I'm like, you know, what's great about this book is it's a standard romance plot. And if I fall asleep in mixed five chapters, I won't miss them. You know, that's how bad it is. So anyways,(...) I know I'm on the, I'm in a better place now, but I still experienced some of it. And so honestly, just having a simple, okay, every single hour, I think I'm going to put on my, I have a whiteboard in our kitchen. I think I'm going to do like a plus or minus every hour. Yeah. I actually, two or three things that are associated with that. And that's it. I think I'm just going to do that for a few days.

I think this would be a really good hand, like thing for moms to have. If there's some sort of chart that could be a printout or a laminated with a dry erase marker. Honestly, no, I think Caitlin, like, oh yeah, that you can just hang on your fridge and throughout the day, like check her minus or something super simple because we don't have time to put in a spreadsheet, whatever they could be so valuable.

And part of that exercise is reminding yourself that you have a body and you are a person because you're checking in, what are you checking in with your own energy? But really, we are like not taught to do that.

One thing I'll say, cause this can, there's one part of this exercise that can open a can of worms, which is that if you're identifying certain people in your life being super draining, that does not mean you have to cut them off. That does not mean you immediately have to make boundaries.

and I've actually been like on the verge of tears and sessions with clients being like, Oh my God, conversations with my mom used to like spiral me and now conversations with my mom feel loving and joyful. Oh wow. So just to like encourage people that you don't have to lose hope in relationships that you identify as being draining and that it can actually be empowering to identify them as being draining. Cause then it gives you something to work with.

I am so not about the cancel culture that we just implement as a society. Yeah.

That was a pretty counter cultural thing. I feel like,

Oh yeah, that's, I'm subtle countercultural.

I just, let's get deeper. This is totally perfect. So you are a little woo woo, or at least you wear one. Oh yeah. I'm assuming that's bone deep. So let's just, it's actually,

it's actually probably much more now because now I have like all these frameworks that I've been like geeking out about for 10 years.

Let's go. We don't have to talk about string theory, but I

talk about inner wisdom. I feel really comfortable going here because it's in your bio. So let's say that we've done the foundational work of identifying the burnout or identifying the difficulty we're in

and let's just go seven layers deeper and, and look for,

we find the inner wisdom, the inner voice,(...) the thing that kind of drives us, if we tap into the core of who we are, a, how do we identify it? That could take us a couple hours. And then B,

(...)

how do we make sure it's not just anxiety? How do we know it's the voice? You know the voice.

You know what I'm saying?

thing that I like to point out

cause this is sort of like an intersection between psychology, self-help, and like a spiritual journey is that

can only afford to do this when likely your life has gotten better because it takes energy to do this work. So

just, for anyone listening, if you're like in burnout, the first stage of processing it is like what we've already talked about. And then this is something where once you have more freed up energy, you can be more conscious of like voices and tapping into different voices and processing voices and tapping into inner wisdom. So that's just a thing. Cause like, I remember a time in my life when I would judge myself, I was like, I can't get in touch with my inner wisdom. And my life was like,

very extremely stressful. I would say my life was extremely stressful. So like a metaphor that sometimes people use is like the inner voice is a very quiet voice. So you can only hear it when the other voices start speaking softly enough that you can hear the inner voice. And that's just kind of like a metaphorical way to talk about you have the energy.

So with all of that being said,

one way to tap into the inner voice, and it, it doesn't have to be this way. And I do it in multiple different ways with clients. But one way is through IFS internal family systems. And the idea is IFS has the concept of a self. And so if you think about

a good enough parent, which is like a psychology phrase, essentially about like,

goal is to be good enough not to be good,(...) which is a whole rabbit hole. But

parent is like, Okay, kids, I hear your feelings, I validate them. And also, I'm still the one calling the shots. And I'm still going to guide the way the next thing we do. So you aren't the one that's going to decide the next activity we're doing, but also your feelings matter. And you having like a temper tantrum that matters, like, I'm not just going to ignore it, but also you don't get to run the show. And so the idea of self from like a practical standpoint is that it's like, there are all these voices in us trying to tell us what to do. And often those voices are coming from fear or anger, like so anxiety, for example. And they're trying to run the show. And it's being able to look at those other parts of ourselves and saying like, I know you want to try to run the show. I know you're trying to help me. But actually, you can trust that I as the parent, as the person who's going to call the shots will be the one making the executive decisions, which actually similar to like, parenting, it frees up the child or like the other parts in ourselves to be really honest, because then they

actually don't want to call the shots, if that makes sense. Like they don't want to be the parent.

(...)

So one way to do this is like through IFS work. And usually it's starting with the voices in you that are trying to run the show that are really like intense and emotional. So

example would be like a client going through a career transition.(...) Maybe they need to make like half the amount of money they made in the last job to survive. But there's a part of them that's like, if you don't make just as much money, you are a bleeping failure, you have not reached your potential,

(...)

you're not going to be able to retire, you're going to be a loser, you want so like all of these like very like mean things and to talk to that voice and to be like, okay, so where are you coming from? And maybe that voice ends up saying, you know what, I'm just terrified that someday you won't be able to provide for yourself, which means you might have to like rely on a partner or rely on your parents or do things that you feel really uncomfortable doing. So I actually want you to be totally independent. And that's like the wisdom sort of like what I'm trying to show you. But the way it's manifesting is you are a loser and you just need to get a better job. And if you don't, like,

good luck in on this planet. And so usually with like within the IFS framework tapping into inner wisdom, you start with talking to the loudest voices, and then you eventually get to a place where the client is practicing like, okay, as as self, like as the good enough parent, I hear you other voices, I

you, but I'm practicing calling the shots. And then usually self in people's bodies, like when you were saying, how can you tell the difference between anxiety,

(...)

or like inner wisdom, usually self feels calm. So like if a tell for anxiety for you is like an increased heart rate or sweating a little bit or getting like a little dizzy, sometimes there are things that different people can track in themselves, you would not feel any of those things. Or if like sadness, if you usually feel on the verge of tears, usually if you're tapping into inner wisdom, you would not be on the verge of tears. And if it's tears, it would be like joyful tears like, Oh, I feel so much relief.

So yeah, that's a way to tell.

And then as you practice listening to inner wisdom and making like observable changes in your life, as you listen to the inner wisdom, your life continues to get better and your inner wisdom feels stronger, and it's easier to tap into it. So like, a thing I like to encourage clients to think about it as is like

on a muscle that you've always had, but you're trying to get stronger, because I think it's really important the concept you've always had this inner wisdom, it's not a thing that like you lost or something, it's always been inside of you. So usually, over time, like tapping into it more and more, the clients will start to allow that voice to make like most of the decisions in their lives.(...) And then

like to go back to burnout and energy management.(...) Usually that also helps with all of that. So that it's like trickling down on multiple levels between like burnout, energy management, improving relationships, feeling more confident in yourself feeling like you have more of like a compass.

Because people need purpose, they need to like contribute to feel good. Like that is such a human thing to contribute to a community

show up in the world.

Yeah, I'm just sitting with this. So I want to say it back to you.(...) Okay, hi Emily.

(...)

Yeah, an IFS system.

(...)

You take on the role of parent.

(...) AKA self. Self.

Yeah. And you relegate all of your emotions or voices or feelings or physical manifestations to the toddlers in your life

children, whatever. And you engage in conversation with each of them, starting with the loudest.

Yes, I'm not sure what you mean about by relegate in that circumstance.

So like I'm, I'm picturing my emotions as small children if I'm a parent.

(...)

Well, sometimes self can get emotional. So it gets a little bit more complicated, but usually the emotions of like a lot of anxiety, a lot of sadness, burnout, apathy, usually those are like parts of you that need some like time to be heard and to be worked with.

(...)

So I'll picture them as different characters in my life, maybe like inside out, like, Oh, I haven't seen that.

You've never seen it inside out. I haven't either, but I think it is similar to that.

(...)

So, but the whole purpose

is to be able to identify them as their own

silo, their own thing, taking up space to then be able to have this conversation to get to the Y to the kernel.

(...)

Yeah, like the loud here, you kind of deescalate through conversation with yourself to get down to this level of peace and quiet.

(...)

a thing that came up for me when you were describing that is having these be separate like voices in your head. It also helps with how shameful some of these things can feel. So like if a voice in your head is like, maybe you shouldn't have ever been a mom, like maybe you made a mistake and now it's too late because you're with this kid for the rest of your life. Five kids, actually. Yeah, five. Yeah, five kids. And so like that example, I feel like it can be so scary for people to even say it out loud and acknowledge it that if you say, okay, this is a part of you, this isn't all of you, like this is literally a series of thoughts. And if we call it a part of you, then we can talk to it. And it doesn't mean like shame is going to take over your entire life and you're going to like stop, like leave all your kids, but it like allows a dialogue. So that's also part of like the utility of it being separate parts of you as well.

That's a really good example because I hear that.(...) Maybe you shouldn't have ever been a mom and my whole body just goes, Oh, like gut punch for a mom to think that.

And it's, and I'm sure that happens to like almost every mom correct to different degrees.

(...)

don't think I thought it that drastic, but I definitely have thought like,(...) I'm not equipped to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I as you're talking, I'm just feeling inspired because like, you know, maybe it is woo woo. But I think, but I think like what we're

also missing is just that sense of spirituality, whatever that looks like for you.(...) And I'm thinking of really like self-actualized people. I know Maslow isn't like proven anymore, whatever, but like, I think there's still something to be said for once you've reached self-actualization, like you've reached, you know, happiness, the highest level of like being in the world.

(...)

And we forget that we have to do that. But in order, like, you know, for me, like in order to pray well, which frankly, I suck at right now, like you have to acknowledge all of those voices and you have to get down to that piece and like actually to have that prayer life, you have to practice doing all of those things.

(...)

And like even for me right now, I'm at a point where sometimes I just like have to practice even though I know it's not going to go well, because it can be so hard to slow down and do that. But right now I'm reading this book by Madeline Langle. She wrote A Wrinkle of Time and some other great books. And I'm just struck by it's kind of a memoir.

(...)

She talked about how during early motherhood and she kept it on her whole life, but I was so inspired. She required an hour at the piano every single day. Whoa. Like without Yeah, they like owned a business and her husband was an actor and like they were piecing things together. Somehow she made that happen every day. And it's just striking how much creativity. She's also deeply spiritual, like how creativity plays a role in all of that. I'm still stuck on that. I love this.

(...) Yeah. Well, and I would say I'm a pretty confrontational person. I don't, I don't, okay. I don't like to start confrontation. It doesn't

bug me though. As long as there's a constructive end, you know,(...) there's, there's a point to it. But in your example, like maybe I never should have been a mom. I, they just hearing that and feeling it. My instinct is to run the exact opposite way.

Yeah. And zone out on my phone. I would so much rather scroll, scroll, doom, scroll or whatever, then face that question.(...) So what you're describing is work. It is so much real hard, difficult work to get to that softer voice.

(...)

Yeah. A client once said this to me. I thought it was so beautiful. She was like, I feel like part of your job as my therapist is to hold out hope for me that things can get better. And that I can get to the place I'm looking to get to. So when I feel like like the flame of hope is like really dim or even doesn't exist, that you as like another human who cares about me can say like, I still see this. Like, and so when you were talking about, yeah, like doom scrolling, I'm like to have someone with you to be like, Emily, I know you feel awful right now. I can still see something past this for you.

Yeah.

(...) Or we're not supposed to do this alone.

I know you don't feel anything at all, which is what you're going for. Maybe it'd be better to feel awful

if we're talking about.

Oh, that gets tricky because then it's like helping people afford the cost of like approaching how awful it is because like that's also very costly energy wise. And that can be like more of the toxic side of the self-help industry. Like, well, if you just faced all of your awful for the next week with these like five exercises, you would just be like over this voice, you know, seven days people let's go. Yeah. But then like, how much could you take care of your baby in those seven days? You might literally be like in bed sleeping the whole time. And I'm guessing that's literally not

an option for you. So like,

(...)

so, so that's part of it too is like tie trading it, like tie trading the looking at the darkness and then being like, okay, I can go back to regular life and that's okay.

if regular life is apathy and doom scrolling, like that's still a reasonable choice.

I really, that was really funny and I loved it.

(...)

Because you have to like,

if you're functioning for

yourself and the people around you, you still have to maintain that level of functionality, even if you're embarking on a really tough journey, that's ultimately going to be better for

Yeah. So maybe choose like a voice every few days or something.

Well, also doing it with other people too. And it doesn't have to be a therapist. And I'm, I'm very much

the whole thing in our culture of like, all you need is a therapist and you'll feel better is like ridiculous.

I think there are other ways to like experience catharsis and process shame and like being community with other people that does not look like therapy at all.(...) But I think it's interesting how

I guess it's more of a vibe I'm picking up in your response, Emily, that a lot of it is like, okay, well, I'll approach this voice by myself.

Like, it's not like I'm gonna do this work with a different, like with another person.

I didn't think about it at all. So thanks for drawing attention to it. Totally. That's the only way I pictured it.

Yeah. Yeah. Therapies.

So if we're talking about non-therapy options, which I think is also going to be really helpful for our listeners to hear because a therapy is really expensive, potentially,(...)

for most people. Maybe you have great coverage, maybe you don't. Yeah. But if it's not a financial issue, it's also a time issue.

(...) It can be hard to gear up for that session. Yeah.

(...)

And I've had a, I mean, I think you and I have both had great experiences in therapy at different

points, but- But it was still hard. I was like, I don't want to go. And then it was always good.

Yeah.(...) So what are some other ways that people can start engaging in this kind of work without therapy?

hard to answer because everybody's different. So I think a different way to ask that question would be, what is a sustainable way for you to be in more community with other people? And if that's like, if they go to church, maybe they go to church an extra day a week, or if they have a really close friend that they FaceTime with once a week, maybe they FaceTime with them twice a week, or if there's a thing they love to do, like, I don't know, get a massage, maybe they get extra massages.

(...)

So like, it really depends on the person, but like the sort of therapy version of that question would be like support groups, online communities, some of them are free, or there's like a lower,

much to pay for, where there are like discussion groups and places to be in community with maybe like other moms or other people going through similar transitions.

Also things like getting out into nature with like one person.

Like, I think there's something really healing about nature. And I've found like some clients are like, wow,

(...)

I don't know, going on this hike felt similar to a therapy session.

essentially building upon community that you already have,

purposefully engaging in community that you already have, and sometimes challenging yourself to engage in it more vulnerably, like maybe your husband is more open to having

conversation about this thing you're feeling ashamed about, but you're not quite letting yourself like access that. And that depends on the person again.

And then building new community, which is the hardest because it's the highest cost, but that can be like

groups, online communities,

things like that. So that would be like

community building piece, and then the sort of

from burnout piece. It's so hard, but

back the amount of things that you do in a week as the first step, and then seeing what happens. And then after that, the things that you add, challenging them all to be restorative. Like when you start this thing, you feel x amount of energy. And when you end it, you feel more energized. Like those are the things you add to the space that you've created. When

you say

cutting things out,

How far do you go?

Oh, yeah. Like back to when we were talking about kind of like energy management. So like, what are the things that are taking the most energy from you? Is it possible to either stop doing these things and no one else has to do them or stop doing them and someone else does them?

(...)

But you have to make space before you add things, which is the thing that like nobody wants to.

Like you have to audit. You have to audit your schedule.

Yeah, yeah, that's tough. I mean, that is

change on yourself right there.

And it could be something

like,

(...)

like, I don't know, you have a sister that you tell this podcast about and you do it with them. I just it's so helpful to have other people to talk about it with, but it can be like another person, almost like having like a gym buddy where it's like, okay, we both have the goal of going to the gym at this time, these days of the week. And it seems like it makes it more likely for us to go to the gym, having this goal. It doesn't mean it's always going to happen, but it seems more likely to happen than me doing this on my own.

I'm thinking of the basic

burnout check-in every hour. How does your body feel?(...) You know, I mean, how simple would it be to just text someone at the end of the day? Hey, I did it.

Well, and I'm even thinking there's days that I tell my husband,

(...)

like, I need a break. And he's like, all right, what are you going to do? And then I'm like, I have no idea. I have no idea what I need right now. But that could be something that's a really good, like go to a coffee shop with your notebook, take your inventory.

(...)

And then that might inspire some deeper thought and just some restorative action, or at least it sets you up for the next(...) time to be able to answer that question.

Well, and a thing for clients that don't know, like when they get the space and they're like, I don't know what to do with this.(...) Sometimes the prompt of like when you were a kid or like before you had a

child, what did you enjoy? And like, what did that feel like? What parts of yourself? So I think this is where it kind of can loop back to creativity. Like I remember I loved making collages as a kid. And so like, maybe I'm going to do a little bit of talking to a kid. And so like, maybe it's making a collage for 30 minutes outside of the house where you like can't hear your family. You're just like, but

so yeah, that's another kind of prompt for like, I don't even know what to do now that I made this space.

Yeah, I love that. And I would love, like when you do get those windows, because they're not always possible. So when you do get it,

I would love a little list of things where I know, Hey, I'm going to come back better, not just neutral, not like how I left, but better because I did this activity.

Because I feel stressed. And then I'll like spiral or like, I'll go try something and it's not working. And then I'm like mad at myself because I wasted that time. You know, I gave you a break and I fished it up. Yeah.

(...)

I have a quick question way back to the beginning. When you were talking about creativity and when it's restorative, you were talking about like, usually something that you're skilled at.(...)

What if you're someone that

does not identify as a creative or artistic person? Like what do you know?

Yeah, yeah.(...) Yeah, most people, even if they're skilled at something, like what I would identify as skilled at something, they won't say that. So then usually the prompt is, what do you like doing the most? And then if they're like, I don't like doing anything, like, which usually there's something if you ask enough questions, like, oh, yeah, like five years ago, I did like that painting

class I took for two hours or something. But like, if they don't have an answer to that, then it would be like, what is an easy thing that you could have like in your environment you can engage with? And then it might be like, oh, yeah, we have like a keyboard or we have like knitting needles and yarn,(...) like, and I'll just try that for 10 minutes. So also just like what is immediately accessible to you?

(...) Because flow state is in some ways a privilege, because there's the intersection of

focus and skill. And so then that person can build up the skill to get to that flow state eventually.

And it's still quite useful. Like, it's still very nice to do creative things.

that's great.

Going back to the very beginning when we were talking about transformation. So your clients who have identified the burnout, addressed it, done the deep, deep work of

A, like

identifying the timbre of their inner voice,

(...)

and then also cultivated the practice of listening to it consistently. I mean, so many levels and layers there, right? But your clients who have done all of that work, what kind of results are they seeing across the board? What are things you're hearing from them?

Yeah, I'm thinking of one client in particular, they have almost become

like a leader in their community, which is really interesting how

kind of like what we were talking about, it goes from like the inner pain, inner turmoil, working through it, integrating wisdom. And now like, they're not only quite joyful most of the time. And when difficult things happen, they have lots of like tools and frameworks to process it. And they have the energy to like, bounce back faster, which is also part of the cycle. But also they, they almost feel like

can start

back

joy and the liberation that they now have within themselves to sometimes the greater world, like sometimes it's online communities or(...) content that anyone can access. Other times it's

really deep conversations with a parent or a friend. But I feel like it usually ends up being some sort of leadership. Because once you can like access it more often, it's like, oh my gosh, I want the people my love that I love to be able to do this too. And like, I want

to like,

spread joy and like, oh my gosh, the world is a really

(...)

difficult place right now for a lot of people. Like I want to do something about it.

yeah, usually I see a lot more action and like action that they are tracking as creating change that

pleased to see and feels meaningful.

(...) Isn't this just what we all want?

(...)

It's also what the world I would say needs.

It's the world needs

balanced leaders who are like humble and human and joyful and also realistic and able to like hold pain and joy.

And frankly, I think a lot of that, you know, like there's certain generations that don't understand therapy.

you know, it's a broad statement.

(...)

And while Emily was trying to be all you know, not hate on the Gen Z. I was like, well, I can't hate on the boars. We're not hating on anybody, but just as a stereotype.

(...)

But I

mean, what you're talking about was so much easier for them. They didn't have so many barriers that we do. And so we have to like relearn how to create what you're talking about, which makes a lot of sense. Why?

Why we need help sometimes.

Yeah. That's why it's interesting. The question of

how can people get therapy without going to therapy when I was like, well, how can people build community and how much community was like built in to everyday life?

Yeah. Because yeah, I and just to be clear, too, for people listening to this, like not all therapy is the same. And there are, I think therapists out there who have internalized

deficits and like pathology so much that

I think usually they're doing their best to try to help people. But sometimes people leave working with a therapist thinking like, okay, I'm going to have depression for the rest of my life. But now I have a toolbox, or like, I'm always going to be like broken. But now I have tools like,

and that means I'll be okay. And it's like, no, you aren't broken. Like, and that is really hard

But yeah, that is a story that I kind of tell myself about boomers versus millennials, where it's like, yeah, a lot of community was built in. And there were a lot of contextual differences where therapy wasn't as

I want to say needed. I don't know.

when there's a lack of

guidance and community, then yeah.

Therapy.

Well, I already want to have you on for another episode where we

talk about. I want to be on for another episode. Let's do it. Because I have so many questions about

neurodiversity, which we didn't even touch on.

And it's so great. Oh, just the bees news.

I'm an amazing former student that

(...)

Amazing. Okay. So we're going to have Caitlin back on, but for now, are you ready for a lightning round?

Okay. I'm actually excited.

Yeah. Self-care to you

Transcendence.

(...) Okay.

(...)

Nice. Casual.

(...)

Yeah.

I've always been casual, Emily. You know this. So true. That was the word that came up and that's why I paused for so long. I was like, I need a different word and I was like, nope.

Got to be authentic.

I love it. I love doing an amazing start. I'm so bummed I only have five of these. Favorite creative outlet at the moment.

(...)

Composition.

(...) Oh,

(...)

musical.

I want to hear it. I'm following the rules. I only had one word.

(...)

Yeah. No, I need, I want to start sharing it. I have started very,

(...)

very, but yeah.(...) Yeah.

I want to start sharing it. I'm excited for when I get to hear it. I'm excited for when I get to hear it.

Share it with all y'all. Therapy is.

(...)

Co-journying.

Oh,(...) I see what you did there. Is there a hyphen?

(...)

That's why I was very specific.

(...)

A dream opera role for you would be.

(...)

It's so funny, Caitlin.

(...)

I don't want to sing opera.(...) Oh, okay.

(...)

Violetta.

La Traviata for context, but Violetta is one word.

(...)

But not opera. So actually bad question.

Sorry. Well, no, if I like, if someone was like, the only thing you can do for the rest of your life is sing opera, you have no other options, then I would be like, okay, I'll be Violetta.

But you were trained as an opera singer.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

There's, there's context for that question.

Yeah, totally.(...) The most joyful part of your day is.

My partner.(...) Oh, yeah. I love him so much. Wow.

(...)

Yeah. Just, oh, the type of joy that's like full body, soul, heart, joy.

feel joy. Yeah. But it's technically

interacting with, like spending meaningful time with him and not all time is the same, you know, feeling, but like those like meaningful connections. And like my first thought was like connecting through love with other human beings. But then I was like,

it feels, it's very special with like a partner.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm so inspired on so many levels after this episode. I love it.

Can you tell us about your project you're working on?

Yes. Because I think everyone's going to want to hear more.

talk about the project I know you're referring to, but there's other projects.

Where can people find you? Where can people, if they want to connect with you, tell, tell your listeners all of the places.

Yeah. Effective artistry.com with my bio. Psychology Today, Caitlin Ruby Miller, inclusive therapist, Caitlin Ruby Miller, therapy done. Caitlin Ruby Miller, Instagram,

fem enchantment, which is F E M C H A N T M E N T fem. It's a word I made up because I just love words. Yeah.

And then the things I listed include like an email address, but I guess I could share my email, which is Caitlin Ruby Miller at gmail.com. Just in case there's someone who's like, I don't want to go on those pages. And

yeah, I want to invite people, like you can ask any questions. It doesn't have to just be about like seeing a therapist or working with me or like, I'm happy to provide resources. And part of the reason why I wanted to go on this podcast and I'm also launching my own podcast is I'm trying to help more people who don't have the opportunity to work with me like one on one.

Tell us more about the podcast, the upcoming podcast. Yeah.

So Olivia and I, um, who Olivia is a coworker of mine are launching a podcast called counselors craft, a curious path. Um, I have a background in the arts. So like opera music composition, ceramics photography, and Olivia was an actor, director, voiceover, actor,

musician. And so it's a combination of like therapy, including like drama therapy, expressive arts therapy, talking about our like work as therapists, like what's a theme that's coming up for us this week and how is it entering like the culture and what can we do about it as well as like our personal stories. Cause I think a big thing that is missing from the therapy industry is like therapists are people too. And by sharing their lived experience and what they've learned and also what they're working on and what they're struggling with currently, like as human beings, it can be like really beautiful for people to kind of come along the journey with us. And then, um,

(...)

yeah, so we're, we're going to be hopefully publishing stuff weekly. We still haven't published our first one, but it'll be video as well as audio. So we're hoping to just put it anywhere you can find podcasts as well as the video might be on like a combination of sub stack and YouTube. We're trying to figure it out.

I'm also in the process of launching multiple groups and by the time this episode airs, they might have changed. But like for now, there's one about helping people work on creative projects that I'm doing with Sarah, who's an executive functioning coach and also an artist. There's another group, um, called neuro tribes for trying times. And it's catered towards like people who identify as neurodivergent who, what is happening in the world is like deeply impacting them and trying to find a space to build community. And I'm co-facilitating that with my colleague Margaret. And then the third group is with, um, Olivia, the same person I'm doing the podcast with. And it's exploring the tarot, like the major arcana of the tarot. This is so woo. I love it. Um, with like drama therapy and prompts to explore identity and like transformation. So I guess the thing that's the closest to what we've been talking about today is the third group of like identity exploration and creative ways and utilizing the tarot.

yeah. And then I see individual clients.

for now I'm putting a pause on couples, but I can refer people out to other couples therapists. Um, and yeah,

the thing. Oh, and then hopefully starting to like share my music at some point. And that'll just be on like Instagram and other things. I'll try to make that easy to find, but that would probably be on like some enchantment.

I'm chanting.

I have to check it out. What I'm hearing is that not only do you dish out the advice, but you also follow it yourself and follow all these interesting curiosities of yours. You've cultivated work around these different energy giving topics,(...) practices.

(...)

And I heard so many colleagues mentioned, you're clearly tapping into a very large, at least professional community in your work.

You can't do it alone. Yeah. And then my dream is to run a nature-based retreat center where people in like modern life can come and find like solace and healing, but that is quite an endeavor and will likely take time to like build. But that's kind of my dream is to have nature help heal us all.

envisioning like a full campfire right now under a full moon with like naked women just dancing.

That's

what people always say to me, but they're like, oh my gosh, there are so many beautiful ways to connect with nature that aren't just like caricatures of paganism. I

love that your response to that was, yeah, that's what everyone says to me.

It is. That's true. That is funny that there, I mean, maybe I should, I don't know. I feel like that could be a session that could be a mini summer camp.

(...)

This has been delightful.

I'm much more energized. Can I ask her the last question that we ask moms usually? Oh yeah. Great question. Okay. Caitlin Miller. What makes you feel beautiful?

(...)

Oh

(...)

It's really hard for everyone to answer so far. So we keep asking.

I think it's feeling energized and happy. I think I could look exactly the same on one day versus another, but if I feel like joy and love and energy, I'm like, oh,(...) I feel beautiful versus a day where I might look exactly the same, but my energy is like low and I'm like, oh, I just feel tired. So I feel like my sense of when I feel beautiful, because it wasn't one, do other people find you good when I feel beautiful is like the energy.

(...)

And I hope to carry that throughout my entire life as we age and

(...)

the world tells us we're less beautiful as women age, which is another, so that sense of like, I have this energy, I have this flame that feels good and people can't take away my sense of my own beauty.

(...)

So that's my goal.

(...)

It's one of my favorite.

Do you hear my dog? Yeah. We meet him.

Oh, we actually have to. She is so cute.

this little nugget.

She's so cute. Is

Yeah. She's such a good girl. We've been on a journey together.

she's so social. She's helped me be more social. Oh, yeah. She wants to be everybody's friend.

And everyone wants to be her friend. Everyone does want to be her.

Legit people take photos of her. Like she's like a movie star.

This was lovely.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

And I really want to come back because I would be happy to like just deep dive next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

Incredible. I think we've proven we could for many more episodes. So yeah.(...) Thank you. Thank you so much.

Love you both. Bye.

(...)