Episode 36: The One for the Mom Ready to Stop Outsourcing Her Power with Natalie Bowler: Ancestral Wisdom, Blue Zones, Breaking Generational Cycles & Pain Free Childbirth

What happens when a therapist realizes she's been outsourcing her own maternal power? Natalie, a trauma therapist and mother, transformed her approach to motherhood after experiencing birth trauma, postpartum anxiety, and a life-changing miscarriage. Listen now if you're ready to stop outsourcing your maternal power, break generational patterns that no longer serve you, or simply want to hear why a therapist thinks behaviorism is the thing we all need to unlearn. This episode is equal parts vulnerable storytelling and practical wisdom—with just enough wanderlust to make you want to book a ticket to Costa Rica.

Main Topics & Discussion

From Trauma Therapist to Intuitive Mothering Expert

After a traumatic birth with her first child, Natalie found herself disconnected from maternal instincts, googling everything, and desperately seeking external validation. A profound miscarriage became her turning point—teaching her to trust her body's wisdom and reclaim power from those who didn't serve her best interests.

Blue Zone Adventures: What the World's Healthiest Cultures Teach Us About Motherhood

Overwhelmed by American parenting culture, Natalie took her family on a five-month journey to blue zones. In Costa Rica, she discovered 70-year-olds who looked 45 and communities where 100 people show up to help build your farm. In Okinawa, she witnessed everyone from teenagers to 90-year-olds genuinely celebrating children—contrasting sharply with the eye-rolls American families with toddlers often encounter.

Mother Hunger: Understanding the Generational Attachment Wound

Drawing from Kelly McDaniel's work on "mother hunger," Natalie explains this deep attachment wound from inadequate nurture, protection, and guidance. Running support groups for mothers with mother hunger, she emphasizes that breaking generational cycles isn't about perfection—it's about repair and genuine accountability.

Redefining "Pain-Free" Birth Through Hypnosis and Mindset

Natalie shares her incredible home birth story using self-created hypnosis scripts and visualization. She breaks down the fear-tension-pain cycle and how examining belief systems about birth can transform the entire experience.

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Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I'm excited to chat with you. Yeah, of course.

There's so many things to talk to you. There really are

a year.

(...) I'm curious about.

The website is chock

Could you tell our listeners a little bit about what you do? You can fill them in professionally because there are so many

that you address professionally, but you're also a mom. So tell us a little bit about what your life looks like.

well, I have been a therapist for about 10 years and I specialized in working primarily with adult women with trauma and attachment issues. And then I feel like I had children and I used to see really complex cases. And after I had kids, I just couldn't really handle the level of acuity anymore. And I also wanted to get maybe more on the prevention side of things. And so I felt like, you know, catching moms either while they're pregnant or really postpartum can prevent a lot of the attachment issues that I was seeing that were causing people a lot of challenges.

so that is something and I actually, I had a group practice in Nashville and I just closed that in January. So I am still practicing as a therapist, but I only see like 10 clients a week now.

and then I also,

I'm very passionate about pregnancy and if women want to have a natural birth, that it doesn't have to be, you know, excruciatingly painful because I feel like that's often what we're told.

(...)

Um, and so I have a course that I just released on that, but I also work with holistic sleep. So if people,

need support around sleep, you know, that's like a very challenging time. Yeah.(...)

and so I do that. And then I'm also a

hunger trained facilitator. And so I don't know if y'all know what mother hunger is. It's basically like when a woman doesn't have, um,

adequate nurture, protection and guidance in childhood. And so then as adults,

they can struggle. I think men have mother hunger too, but the author like writes about women cause she's worked with women primarily.

(...) Sure.

I have lots of pins dropped in all of the things that you just outlined, lots of questions for you where we dig into your work. But first I want to hear about your

matrescence.(...) Sounds like you had this almost decade long career as a therapist. And it sounds like things changed for you when you became a mom. So let's start with what surprised you or really shook you to your core when

I mean, I think I actually,

(...)

as I was getting ready to have my first child, I was having a lot of anxiety just about what it was going to look like. And I had a pretty rough birth with my son.(...) And I would say I left that experience with some birth trauma and so did he,(...) but I also, I think that probably contributed to this, but I felt very disconnected from my instincts and intuition. And I think was a little bit in this period of what should I be doing and am I doing it right? That sort of thing. And(...) I went back to work in the office actually as a therapist when he was probably four months postpartum. And I felt like I was lucky to have that long of a leave, but I think when I had my daughter, I was much more connected to myself.

(...)

And

I had probably been a little bit of like a workaholic.

(...)

And so it was

interesting having her because when it was time to go back to work, which was at about four months too, she refused a bottle.(...) And so I was just like, what am I going to do? And again, I'm very fortunate in a lot of ways where I sort of was at this crossroad and decided like, I think I'm just going to work from home. And so I was able to not try to get really creative and force a bottle. We tried some things, but it was just this is not really working.

And maybe in our case right now, and we have the ability to do this, the best thing for her would be for me to stay with her. And so I would still do sessions, but I was able to breastfeed between them or hold her and just be with her quite a bit. And so(...) I feel like she was just born this very wise little baby that was just not one of those high needs babies, but was just kind of like, this is who I am. This is what I need.

(...)

And I think I was more connected

to my mothering instincts too.

It's so interesting hearing you say that you were disconnected from yourself with your son, because when I look at all of the courses, you offer the therapy styles or focuses that you're working on with your clients, they're so intuitive. I mean, you're so curious about ancestral wisdom,(...) intuitive mothering. So to hear that you had this personal experience of fully lacking that,(...) I'm wondering,

(...)

A, what did that look like for you? Not being able to access that, and B, when you realize there was a deficit for yourself.

probably realized that I had a miscarriage between my two kids. And I think after that miscarriage is when I really realized it, because I noticed with the birth of my son,(...) looking back now, I notice that there were certain things where I was like, I don't want to do that intervention. Or that's not what I want.

This doesn't feel right to me, it doesn't fit. But I was

probably outsourcing my power to the provider and just thinking, oh, you know best.

And it ended up not being the best thing. And so I feel like there were inklings of that.

(...)

you know, it's funny, I'm a therapist, but

I think I very much had postpartum anxiety after having

son, because I was also googling things, or just again, looking to people outside of myself, which not all of that is wrong, but in a very anxious way of like, somebody tell me what I need to be doing, what should I be doing,

that's kind of what that looked like. But then when

had a miscarriage, it was a mis-mis-courage, I was like eight and a half weeks along. And when I went into the doctor, I went into the same doctor that I had had the traumatic birth with. And that's like a really good sign that I was out of touch with my intuition, because it was definitely a situation where I should not have been going back to the same provider.

But I sort of like figured out through that experience.

think that was kind of my entry into more of the holistic world. And

really had this thing where I really wanted to hold my baby.

(...)

It was just something that I like felt very deep in my body. And so

just waited and I waited for a really long time.

And I ended up just like having the baby at home and getting to hold her. And that was really like healing for me personally.

I feel like a lot of times people don't give you that as the option.

At least I was not given that as an option of something that I could do. And it was really, you know, it's very, very sad, but it was also this very empowering experience

It was very sad. But I sort of learned in that experience to

think about things more as like, that is somebody else's experience, I can have my own experience that could very well be different.

Because I think that kind of thing can bring up stir up a lot of fear in people.

I love you said outsourcing my power at the beginning of that story. And that just stuck with me

I have this internal power that I'm not tapping into. I'm outsourcing. I mean, that is so powerful.

such a hard thing. Thanks for sharing. Yeah,

(...)

yeah, of course. I feel like it's something that like we don't talk about enough. But I know it was so nice for me because I talked to a bunch of women that I actually didn't know at all who had had miscarriages during that experience, because with a miscarriage, missed miscarriage, you're just waiting for it to happen if you don't get a DNC or take the pill right away. And so it was so beautiful to have women that were willing to share with me what their experience had been

So it's crazy to hear you. So if your oldest is not even four(...) and you had such a dramatic experience with him and then you have this profound grieving period where you find your power with your miscarriage

now you've dived so deep into ancestral wisdom that you've traveled with your family to find it. That's a jam-packed three years.

(...) That is so much.

(...)

That's probably like a little bit of like my personality.

Can you quick give like a little synopsis of that journey? I think Emily and I are both so curious about the ancestral wisdom.

my dad is Vietnamese. I'm half Vietnamese and my grandmother's Vietnamese.(...) And so I feel like I grew up with some ancestral wisdom, primarily probably more around

food and taking care of your body and that sort of thing. And so I think I was curious about it already, but there's also a lot of war trauma in their background too. So some of that also, I think, has had a trickle down effect. And I've really tried to focus not just on the trauma pieces, but also just like the beauty of the ancestral wisdom that I've received from her.

But I feel like I

kind of feeling, honestly, like a little overwhelmed and disheartened by the way that we do things in America around parenting. I mean, for one, just like our lack of maternity leave is one thing. But then

I don't want to speak for everybody, but I feel like a lot of people have that experience with their first child of like feeling kind of anxious and like, like not being able to really reach within themselves. And I do think it actually sometimes is because of a lack of ancestral wisdom

culture and other cultures, I think have a little bit more of that built in.(...) And so I had this thought actually about

blue zones. And I was like, I bet that

they treat their babies really well there and that babies and children are just like really valued. And so the first place we went was Costa Rica. And we went to the blue zone part of Costa Rica.

actually were able to sit down with this couple that I think they were in their 70s and they no joke look like they were like 45.

(...)

And they were only speaking to us in Spanish. We had somebody translating for us, but they told us all of these things about how they do things. And,

know, I was like spanked as a kid. Like, I think that's like very much a norm for some families and that sort of thing. And here were these like 70 year old, like grandparents telling us like we never hit children in our culture.

We talked to them and(...) they were talking about how I think on Saturdays or Sundays, they would have these family meetings where the kids could bring their complaints to

adults in the family. And I was just like, this is so fascinating. I'm holding court. I love that idea. Yes. Yeah.

And like, so when we were meeting with this couple, we were actually doing like pottery making. And I just because I'm into parenting was asking them all of these questions and they were answering. I don't think that was the point or they knew that was why I wanted to talk to them.

So I'm like making pottery. And it was also just so nice because

wasn't like something that was designed for kids, but they were just like, set up this little table for a son to play with clay. And they had this instrument that my daughter

the time, it was her first birthday actually. And she, the woman just had her up on this stool and she was like barely sitting, like toddling on the edge of the stool.

And they're like the most calm humans I've ever sat with. And they're just like, and I'm like inside like, oh my gosh, they're gonna break the pottery with these like sticks and stuff. But it was just very cool how they just like jumped in. And it makes sense why other cultures have more of that village that I think that we are often looking for because,

people are just like helping us, taking my kids over with their dirty clay hands and they don't like ask, it's just like they just pitch in, which was very cool.

there was like this structure. I don't know what it's called,

but that we were sitting under, it was all open, but it had a roof over it. And the guy was like, when we built our farm here, I think he said like a hundred people showed up to help him that were like a part of,

the Trotega people. And he was like, yeah, like we just help each other. That's like just what we do. But I was like, wow, a hundred people.(...) I don't think I would know a hundred people.

(...)

Oh, like not only that, but like a hundred people who would be like, oh, totally right. Yes. Yes. I'm all the time. I'll show up. Let's do it.

Early this week, we were on a walk and someone in our neighborhood is flipping a house and this, he looks like he's about our age. He's been pouring his own concrete and creating like a front porch totally by himself. And my husband on our walk said, this is so weird. Like we should all be showing up to help him. Like the whole neighborhood should be with him pouring this concrete. And that's just not how we function. Yes. Yes. Yes. Definitely.

So I'm really fascinated by this constraint of yours, of the blue zones,

blue zones being super healthy places. Yes. Yeah.

So like, it's like, um, they have the largest number of Cintarians, I think is what they're called, but people who live to a hundred or older.

I just like, now I want to travel all those places. I was kind of Googling it on the side. I know what you do. And then Italy, Sardinia specifically.

I mean, they're like such beautiful places.

We went to Okinawa too.

And that was like also same thing.

they were just so welcoming and so kind to our children. And you're like walking past somebody on the street and everybody acknowledges your kids.

And it's like, I'm talking about like, it could be like a teenage boy is acknowledging your child or, you know, this 90 year old woman is acknowledging your child. And it's not, I don't know how to really describe it. It's more than just like, hi baby. It's like this whole drawn out interaction,

that people have with you. And, you know, I mean, we're just tourists basically there.

Yeah. It sounds like it's just such a vibrant culture and all these blue zones that you visited. Yeah. And like that makes so much sense that they would see a child who's like the epitome of vibrancy, right? And just be drawn to that. Yes. Yes.

(...)

I will say, so the only place we've traveled internationally with our child, he was one, we were in Tuscany, Italy, and it was the same thing. And I, they're not on the list. There is, it's not Sardinia, Italy, where it's a blue zone. It's not a blue zone, but it's not the USA.

Yes.

Yeah. Your birth rate is lower than hours. Yeah.

(...)

And they were, they just responded to my husband and me and our child in such a beautiful way. And I'm talking about like adolescent boys in restaurants. Yes. Like, how do you know what the baby needs? Yeah. It's just this celebrating of the magic of this tiny person, which was I'm like, wow. I mean, here we treat it often as a nuisance when you see a family, um,

(...)

it's an inconvenience in many ways is the feeling that I get.

Yes. That's definitely the feeling that, that I have gotten to.

like, it's always very shocking to me when a, like a little tiny, like one year old is like toddling towards you and somebody like scowls at the baby. It's just very interesting to me.

How is that possible?

(...) Yes. This is the cutest things objectively I've ever seen in my life. What is wrong with you? If it was a puppy, you might, you might be excited. Why not the one year old kid?

Yeah. So then how did you cope with that? I mean,

you come home, like you're living here.(...)

How did you,

decide maybe to embrace your life here? Like, I think I would have thought, okay, I'm moving.

Yeah, five months away.

(...) But instead, you're helping moms and you're on a mission to, I think make that more of a reality here. What did that look like?

Well, there were a bunch of sicknesses that culminated in three of us getting pneumonia.

(...)

And

is not my strength. I think if we had planned better, it would have been fine. But we were kind of always like, where are we going next? Okay. Let's book that flight that is happening in like two weeks or something. And so it was like a very chaotic experience. We learned a lot along the way,

we traveled a little bit longer after that. And we came back here at the end of March, I think. Yes. Oh, wow.

You've not been back long at all.

No, no.

Wow. I, so my husband and I definitely were like, Oh, two weeks we can book up like very chaotic people prior to kids and having just the one. We need to change some things around here. This is not, this is not going to go well.

(...)

I think my first year postpartum I was like, what do you mean? Oh no, we're just going to have our same life, but like with the baby, it's going to be fine.

And you know, he's almost two now. And I'm like, okay, no required on our end.

Yeah. But there will be time again. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

And one amazing five months.

(...) Yes. It was, it was such an amazing experience. And you know, it's funny because now that we're here, my husband's like, I'm really feeling like an itch to travel. Like, yes, me too. A couple months. Yep. Yep.

So back to the ancestral wisdom, how do you separate like legitimate generational healing

you know, maybe you would categorize ancestral wisdom differently. But for me, it's what I think of is, is this wisdom that comes from many, many generations. We don't know how far back it goes, but it's passed from one generation to another and it's consistent and we keep it around because it's good

because it works.

Maybe science doesn't tell us exactly why it works, but there's respect and dignity and actual results attached to these wisdom through these teachings. So I think ancestral wisdom and kind of looking backwards is so trendy right now. You can find all the pieces and making memes. And I'm not trying to invalidate all of it, but it is a buzzword. So how do you separate what you're learning

from these cultures that you're actually visiting from this kind of trendy ideal of, oh, this is just curious. Why do we, you know what I mean?

(...)

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(...)

I mean, I think what I was doing when I was traveling is really looking at like really all the generations and just how they interacted. So like they treat

the two countries, the two blue zones that we visited, they treat the babies and the elders like very well

you just see

90 plus year old men and women out to get like couples out together in their garden. And

like bending over, they're getting up and down. And so just seeing the,

guess the generational health

Costa Rica, there was a man that I talked to that was probably, I

know, maybe like in his thirties, early thirties. And he was just talking about

I think he said like Costa Rican moms are

I don't know if he used the word extra, but like something like that, like that they're just like very like involved in their children's lives and that sometimes, and he was like, he was like, this isn't seen as a bad thing,

there's just like a lot of familial support.(...) And so that's something that I want to provide for my kids when they have kids, because

live far from family, but I think even just

the perspective of my parents on the postpartum period.(...)

when I was postpartum with my son, this again goes back to my disconnection from my instincts. But my mom came

visit

I think it was like right after I got out of the hospital. So I'm out of the hospital that day. And she's like, let's go to Target. And I'm like, okay, that sounds great. And I had literally broken my tailbone in labor. I didn't know that that's why I was in so much pain. But I was like, okay, let's go to Target. And it's the middle of July, I'm sweating, I'm in Target. So the air is on and stuff. But I feel all of a sudden, like I'm going to pass out. And I like look down and I have my baby in a carrier, I look down and his like face is bright red. And I'm just like, I we have to go right now. But it's just like that kind of thing. And in Vietnamese culture,

something similar to I don't know if y'all are familiar with that book the first 40 days.

(...)

But it has like a similar sort

of time in Vietnamese culture where you're like very much taken care of by your mother or by your grandmother, you're given like nutrient dense meals, like you're not up and getting around. And my mom like meant nothing by taking me to Target. But I think that's like what I think of as ancestral wisdom. And what I want to give to my kids one day is like to, to be in touch to actually be in touch with my intuition and instincts,(...) and be able to like help my kids do that. If they decide to have kids.

(...)

Sure. Because it does take someone saying, at least for me, like, no, you're not allowed to get up, because you want to be doing those things, especially like here, you know, where it's a go, go culture, it's really hard not to. You need someone firm that you trust like your mom.(...) Yeah, lay down that law, I think,(...) here, especially where it's counter cultural to take time.

(...)

And that's like, you know,

my mom's perspective of like, let's just go to Target. Like, I know that's how she handled her postpartum periods. And she had very little support. So it's like, there is generational, I wouldn't even call that like generational trauma, but maybe like generational, like disconnect of like what women need and that sort of thing. But she, I think like after she has four kids, so like after having my brother, her youngest one, like I know that she was taking care of three kids, and a baby by herself. So it's like, that's just what you do. And so, you know, in supporting me, she just thought like, Oh, this is a fun thing. Let's go do this.

That's a good segue.

really curious about generational patterns.

(...)

And the work you do both personally and with your clients to break generational patterns that are not serving you or your kids.

think like in working with my clients, I was seeing the effects of,

I mean, and I have worked with like severely traumatized

and people who have a lot of attachment wounding. And so like, I have seen like(...) probably like the worst of the worst that there is. And that is not necessarily my experience, but it like highlighted things

that I wanted to make sure I didn't pass on to my kids. So

I personally wanted to

to parent more from a responsive place or a place that is in the best service of secure attachment rather than it being like, I have to push you away so that you'll be independent or I need to punish you. So trying to like avoid punishing to get wanted behavior or get rid of unwanted behavior and instead try and get

through connection.

And I mean, I think I learned so much through parenting my first child because again, I feel like I have constantly been

trying to be creative to figure out what he needs. And so I think that's part of the responsiveness piece too, is not doing some

manualized technique or program of like, let me try to employ this thing with him that somebody has told me to do.

I've tried that. I think it often doesn't work. He's like, just needs a lot. And I very much am still figuring that out. Like I don't anything I say, like with clients or on here, it's like,

I do not have it all figured out. So I'm definitely still learning.

would just like to have a really solid relationship with my kids when they're adults too, because,

like it has sometimes been a struggle for me with like my family members at times, because

think another generational pattern that I is really important to me is like the repair piece or apologizing.(...) So like if my kids when they're adults come to me and they're like,(...) Hey, mom, this thing that you did really hurt me when I was a kid.(...) Yes. Like I hope to be able to be like, okay, I want to hear more about that and try and repair that and apologize

something like that.

like, it's not actually good for kids if we like never made any mistakes, cause they're going to make mistakes and

So I think that repair piece is just so important.

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(...)

That was one of my questions, especially around the mother hunger topic, just from the little bit of reading, I'm like, I'm reading through this thinking, oh boy,(...) am I providing that attachment to my children? Like it actually started to make me anxious reading it.

So what are you talking about her website?

No, I was on the author of the book. Oh, Kelly, Kelly McDaniel. I was just reading like a letter on the page that makes a lot of sense, but I was like, oh boy, you know, it did make me anxious. So what are your tips and tools for that? Like, you know, as mothers are really digging into this.

And maybe why don't we even start with mother hunger? What is it?

mother hunger is,

(...)

she describes it as a very deep attachment wound. That is from the mother when a child doesn't get sufficient nurture protection and or guidance. If they don't get enough of all three of those things, which is like a really kind of serious situation, she calls it third degree mother hunger, sort of like comparing it to a third degree burn. And just like the ache around that is it's it's really a significant heartache that I think people live with.

I actually am doing a group right now for moms with mother hunger, because I feel like it is information for mothers that needs to be presented very gently because we do have that tendency to be like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna like screw my kids up now.

so I think that(...) those things are really important to provide to our kids. But when I work with adult women, the one thing that I hear over and over and over again is that their parents just like will not take accountability or responsibility for anything, and they will not apologize in any kind of genuine way. And I think that's the missing piece

that,

if there's a conversation going on, and the parent said, you know, I'm really sorry that I did XYZ or could even receive a criticism and then apologize,

(...)

it would change everything.

(...)

And most adult children are very forgiving of their parents if it's like coming from a genuine place, I just think it doesn't happen a whole lot.

And I feel like that's one of the things when I work with bombs with mother hunger, it's like there's so much guilt.

(...)

think because it's like, I really don't want to repeat this cycle, but it's like, we're not gonna ever not react to things. Like, I feel like that's just part of being a mom. And like most of us don't have like a ton of support. And we might be

solo parenting at various points.

Yeah.

I really like that you frame mother hunger, you or Kelly McDaniel frame it as kind of a third degree wound.

(...)

And to me that makes it more valid. Like, yes, it's okay for you to feel this. You don't need to feel guilt or shame around it. It's a real thing. It also doesn't mean that your mom's a terrible person. That kind of separation that third degree is kind of kind of softens the blow, I think, because no one wants to think that about their parent. You know, so yeah.

And I feel like what she says about

hunger in general, I think the thing that's hard and makes it hard for people to recognize it in themselves is a lot of times it's not what happened, but it's what didn't happen. So like, if you didn't get certain elements of nurturing, you didn't get certain elements of protection or guidance, you didn't even know it was missing because it's not something that happened. It's like the lack of something that I think can make it really hard to identify.

So for moms who might be experiencing maternal(...) mother hunger,

what are some ways, I mean, you mentioned how they could identify that they might have it, but then what are some first steps in trying to break that pattern?

I think probably the first thing is just having,

you have that and you're trying to break the cycle, just having a lot of grace for yourself because you don't have, it sounds like you all in the family you come from have some real wisdom or

to pull from, I guess you could say.

But if you have a woman who has mother hunger and she was never held as a baby,

it's going to be very difficult because it's going to be triggering to have a crying baby.

To not have also somebody that can offer some helpful guidance.

(...)

So being told, leave the baby,

mean, that's a huge one that I think is just common in our culture is, don't hold them too much or you'll spoil them and stuff like that. I can't believe that's still around.

Oh, I was told that with my first. You're going to spoil them. Yes. Yes.

(...) Yes.

think that just knowing that there's so much that you're doing for your child. Also, I just tell people, there's no way that you're going to break every generational cycle.

(...)

You're going to pass some things on. Your kids will probably have to work on some things or be self aware and do those things.

(...)

Because I find that with mother hunger, people just put so much pressure on themselves to make sure they don't repeat any kind of thing that their mom did and be very, very different.

Yes.

I mean, I had an amazing mom and I went right there. Oh my gosh.

I bring up our family, we all got problems. No one's perfect. So I'm not saying that by any means. I just bring it up to say, hey, we can see how powerful it is if you make this choice for yourself and for your child.

(...)

the two women that you mentioned who made some really conscious choices to break patterns. I think that is encouraging for people to hear that you all can notice that in your family, because if it's a mom who is trying to break that cycle, she could be that woman in her family.

Your kids will know.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

(...)

They'll come into adulthood and you'll be able to talk about it with them and they will say, wow, that took such courage. I mean, it also empowers, I think, the next generation to make those same choices. Maybe they're smaller.(...) I'm just a really different woman than my mother is, which is hard for me sometimes because she is a phenomenal mother, is a phenomenal mother. So I know there are certain things. I'm just not going to mother the way she does because it's impossible.(...) Yeah. But there's this power to choose, make that choice. It's a possibility. It's not,(...) well, how was I raised? There's encouragement to(...) take your own path, choose your own path.

Yeah. Just powerful. Absolutely.

So I think like definitely starting with like just being gentle with yourself is the best thing to start with. And then also just like identifying like how things affected you and what you might want to change. For some people, they might need to do like trauma therapy.

back from all these travels. You've done this unofficial research of

kids and being in a supportive environment. And so you have a lot of resources on your Instagram and your website. One of them is

labor, right? Like the very start of your matrescence. Can you start there and talk about like the wisdom you've learned about that?

And then hopefully we can also get into

tools that you hope that we can develop as a culture to become more like these blue zones or these places where mothers and babies are valued and loved

and when I say pain free,

(...)

I think birth is intense. Like I don't think that there's any way around that.

I am also trained in hypnosis. So I think there's also a piece there with being able to have a birth that's free of pain. My first birth was like, I mean, I had an epidural my first birth,

so I actually

the hypno babies program before my first birth. And I think like I had in my head that I could have a birth that or maybe what I was hoping for was that I could like have a birth that I didn't feel anything, which that, as far as I know, is not possible. Like

I don't think you can just feel nothing. No, no.

(...)

I also went into that birth afraid. I don't know if you all felt this way, but I always grew up hearing that birth is very painful. So maybe the worst pain you'll feel in your life.

I was scared of having a baby and

like I was like, you mean like that thing has to like come through like my vagina? Like, yeah, how is that? Like, how is that?

(...)

So it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then you hear(...)

like, I don't know. I feel like it's like a cultural thing. We all like share our horror stories about birth to. And so like a lot of times if you haven't had a baby, you've already heard some horror stories about tearing, ripping, like, you know, all those things. Sometimes you can get competitive.

Yes.

(...)

Yes. Yes. Why? Stop.

(...) Stop.

(...)

It really does.

just think about those stories and like my whole body kind of like tenses and titans. And that is part of

I teach in my course is the fear tension pain cycle. So when we are afraid of something, our body is tense, which then contributes to pain.(...) So that's like a big piece that I try to get people to stay out of. And I have people just examine their belief systems about birth. Like, what do you currently believe about birth?

does that support having a peaceful birth or would you like to change that belief system? I mean, I grew up being told

just have kind of a small frame. And so I was always told by lots of family members, like, you're not going to be able to deliver a baby vaginally. Like, you're going to have to have C sections. And I have an aunt who is built very, very tiny and she had to see sections.

So I mean, even my first OB appointment, when I was pregnant, I was like, do you think I can have a baby?(...) And she was like, yes, you can have a baby.

(...)

And I ended up with an induction. I don't think it was needed, but again, I was not very in touch with my intuition. So I just kind of went along with that plan.(...)

but

feel like that miscarriage kind of like gave me this experience of like, Oh, everybody told me that it was going to be the most painful thing. And I didn't feel any pain. I felt like cramping, but not like I wouldn't call it pain.

say this, I get really painful periods and it was not as bad as that.

and same with,

my birth of my daughter. I did have a home birth, which I do think there is something to like being in your own home, feeling very safe. I do talk in my course about how like, I do think whether you're in the hospital, a birth center at home or somewhere else, like you need to feel safe to have a peaceful birth, potentially free of pain.

I had just done a lot of visualizations of a peaceful birth experience. I did a lot of hypnosis around,

like numbing your body. So that's like a part of it too. And then,

I really did not like, I, I could feel that I was having contractions, but they like really were not painful at all.

I just like laid myself over,

know, those exercise balls every time I had a contraction that came and just like melted my body in the like as relaxed, uh, position as I could. And I did that for like almost every contraction. And I didn't even really know if I was in labor.

and I did have this moment, like, as I transitioned where I was like, so the sensation changed, got more intense.

And it was like, so interesting because I had this like,(...) part of me that felt like this, like older, wiser self that was kind of like, all right, get it together. Like the baby is coming. You can do this. Your body is built for this. Like you got this. And so I just kind of like refocus myself. I think what happened is I like came out of trance, which is part of hypnosis. And so I started like

this moment of panic. And then I like went back into trance. And then I feel like 20 minutes later,

her head was out. But I feel like the funniest part of that story is, you know, they talk about the ring of fire.

Yes.

(...)

I always am like, why do we call it that? Like it's so descriptive. And I've always like cringe just hearing it.

And so when I would talk about it, my husband sings and so do you always sing that song, the burning ring of fire.

(...)

And so literally like, I'm like, oh, that's happening right now. And I just hear that song in my head and my husband's voice.

(...) And it actually really helped because I was like, you know, there's something to like laughing while you're in labor. And so I was like

laughing to myself about this.

And then I was like, oh, it's over because her head came out.

And then she the rest of her body slipped on out. But I was just like,

wait, that's it.

Is that really what I was thinking about when I was the ring of fire, I was thinking about the fires of Mordor.

(...)

That's hilarious. Which was not funny in the moment. I didn't know it was unmedicated, but not peaceful.

(...) Okay, okay. This is wild. Because you're talking about like, Oh, this is not very comfortable. I don't think I like this. Like, are you? Yeah. That was what your transition was. Oh my gosh.

so you like you trained yourself in hypnosis. That seems to be a really big piece of this.

So I'm trained as a therapist in hypnosis, but then I kind of created my own scripts for my birth.

And so a lot of it was just so for ring of fire, for example.

I was like, I'm gonna imagine I see hot instead of throwing a fire.

that was more helpful for me.

talk about the gap in

for women during the prenatal period, we can start there. Definitely want to get into the postpartum period.

I'm definitely working a lot on just the mindset. Like what are you afraid of, um, with new motherhood, but also what are you afraid of with just like having your baby and going into labor and that sort of thing.

I think actually mother hunger can show up for a lot of people while they're pregnant.(...) And what I often see is just people feeling like, kind of like I did very anxious and sort of like, okay, I know what I don't want to do, but I don't know what to do.

Also trying to prepare people for what they might encounter if they're having a hospital birth, because I know I felt very unprepared for that. I was like, Oh, I'll have my birth pillion and we'll just follow that and it'll go that way.

so I'm trying to help people with that.

also, I really love helping people to know what to expect around sleep before they have the baby.

(...)

Because I think, I think if you would have told me, I would have been terrified.

(...)

Yeah. Yes. Well, I think so many people think like, Oh, I'll just like have the baby and maybe I'll like not sleep quite as much.

And I don't know if either of you had a baby like this, but my first baby would not sleep.

and so there was like a lot, a lot needed to support him. And I was not prepared for that.

which I think has a lot to do with temperament. But I like to let people know that if your baby is not sleeping, you're not doing something wrong. Like some babies are just this way. So we have to do a lot to like take care of ourselves.

if that is the case.

not they like tips for taking care of yourself when your baby won't sleep. Like, I don't know, three to five things. What would you suggest?

Yeah.

my biggest tip, honestly, is like,

does get harder. I think if people are working full time, but a big thing I would say is like, if you can go to sleep when the baby goes to sleep, especially like in the early days when you're waking up a bit, a bunch to nurse and that sort of thing.

(...)

it's your first baby nap when the baby naps, and if you need to like, let the dishes be dirty or the laundry go undone, just like let go of some of those things.(...)

I do encourage people and I think it's hard to do this when you're tired, but trying to get out

in the morning sun, and this is also very hard in the winter, but in the morning sun as soon, well, within 15 minutes of waking up, because it helps them to start to like sync their circadian rhythms.

(...)

And if you can be out there for 20 minutes, that's great.

and,

making sure you're eating foods that are nourishing to your body and making sure you like drink enough water and have fluids and that sort of thing.

it's like so, so important to take care of your body when you're not getting enough sleep.

you have a village, these are the things that would be great for them to show up and do for you. Yes. Absolutely. Make sure that they know what you need to be nourished and making that food appear for you when you're trying to,

(...)

you know, maybe your baby's screaming during the hours of noon to two when you are trying to get out in the sun and it's a heroic effort to get out of the house, to be out in the sun, to sync their circadian rhythm. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's your lunch time. And could somebody please just bring you lunch, you know?

Yes. Yes. Or take the baby outside. Or take the baby to you.

Right. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

you know, I feel like people have different feelings about this because some people are like, I don't want to be away from my baby, but, but sometimes I think if it feels right for you, if somebody can come hold the baby for an hour while you take a nap, like that's great.

I don't know if you all feel this way, but I think

reminds me of the story you were telling of the concrete and, oh, we should all be helping him because I can also see him being like, no, no, no, it's okay. Don't help me. And I think we can do that as moms too, is like when people offer

because that's, I feel like it's just like common in our culture to just over function and do things for ourselves. I feel like to accept help is a huge thing too,

or ask for it.

All amazing things.

Okay. Natalie, are you ready for a lightning round?(...) Sure. Okay.(...) Self-care to you is

sure that I have adequate hydration,

(...)

gentle movement. I'm not one who's doing a lot of strenuous working out, but just walking and eating just nourishing foods. I love cooking. Those

also tangible. I love it.(...) If you could give one piece of advice to a woman who's grappling with the way that she herself was mothered, what would it mean?

probably the best thing that you can do is be gentle with yourself. It's like one side or two sides of the same coin. Be gentle with yourself and just being willing to look in the mirror and take responsibility if there's something that you need to change.

I

What's something you're currently unlearning?

like behaviorism.

(...)

That's broad.

(...)

It's big. I feel like it is in all

aspects for so many of us. I think we're maybe on the third or fourth generation of being parented behaviorally. It's in all of us unless you have

non-mainstream upbringing or something, but that's what I'm trying to unlearn.

(...) Okay. I know it's a lightning round, but just give us a general breakdown of what behavioralism is. Yeah.

If anybody wants to do a deep dive on this,

(...)

just look up John B. Watson and the things that he said about children.

I remember thinking about him in school and being like, "What?"

Yes. I did too, but when I got some direct quotes from him, he said some things like, "Only pat your child on the head. Never kiss

them or hug them."

Some really extreme things, but almost all of what we do from at least our parents' generation and back a few generations is influenced by him.

(...)

Who is this guy? Most of us have that in our parenting.

(...)

He was tied to Pavlov, right?

Yes. His idea was you could train kids like dogs. A lot of the

rewards and punishments things that we do just are from that.

(...)

Yeah. I remember in college being like, "Whoa."

Yes. I catch myself sometimes saying stuff to my son like, "If you do this, then this." I'm like, "Oh, there it is."

I sworn I never will and I do it.

Wow. Okay. Rabbit hole for Emily to go to.

(Laughter)

If every mother had a billboard on her road to healing, what would yours say?

for me, probably just like keep going.

Really realistic. I like it. Yeah.

(...)

If you could make one practice or treatment mandatory for all postpartum healthcare professionals, it would

Greer, Kirshinbaum, and Rocio.

(...)

I don't remember her last name off the top of my head, but they have this new

neuroscience practitioner training. I wish every practitioner could take that.

The most joyful part of your day is...

I have coffee.

(...)

Having just my kids around, because they're just so sweet in the morning and they both want to sit on me. I feel like before I have coffee, I'm like, "Please, I just need a minute." But after that, I just...

You too. I'm glad to hear that.

(...)

Yes. Yeah.

(...)

So I feel like just having their little snuggles after that.

(...)

So good.

Okay. Last one. What makes you feel beautiful?

I think I don't have a strange answer to this question, but motherhood, I just feel like motherhood has made me feel more feminine and I've slowed down a lot.

(...)

I was always going, going, going all the time. And so I feel like what I'm actually able to be slow and purposeful

(...)

in my day, that.

sit with that because that's what I struggle with right now.

(...)

I struggle with it too.

Yeah. I think everyone struggles the whole time.

(...) But that makes Natalie feel beautiful. I love that.

Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. This has been so fun. I want to keep talking about traveling, but...

(...)

Well, before you go though, where can our listeners find you?

On Instagram,(...) my handle is safehavenmama,

(...)

and my website is...

safehavencnc.com. I was about to give you the wrong, the wrong... I was about to say the safehavenmama.com. Nope, that was already taken.

(...)

Well, thank you so, so much. This has been fun.

Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye.

(...)