Episode 46: The One for the Mom Ready to Stop Playing Small with Bernadette Catalana: Lessons on Raising Daughters & Dreaming Big

Motherhood challenges all of us, and it invites us to expand. Meet Bernadette Catalana, the author & powerhouse lawyer who took the LSAT seven months pregnant, aced law school with two babies at home, & now lives her best life in NYC just minutes from her grown daughters. This conversation will make you question everything you think you know about motherhood, ambition, & what's actually possible when you stop playing small.

Main Topics & Discussion

When Motherhood Becomes Your Superpower: Bernadette shares her journey into motherhood, & how becoming a mom at 23 gave her confidence she'd never had before. While most people thought she was crazy for applying to law school with a newborn & another on the way, she knew she wanted her daughters to be proud of her. We dive deep into how the right kind of pressure can transform you, why some of the best decisions look insane to everyone else, & how trusting yourself as a mother extends to trusting yourself in every other area of life.

The Art of Intentional vs. Reactive Parenting: We talk about the shift from parenting out of childhood wounds to parenting from a place of strength and joy. We dive into how she broke family cycles & the crucial role forgiveness plays in creating the family dynamic she wanted. Her approach to difficult conversations with her daughters will change how you handle the tough moments in your own life.

Raising Daughters Who Actually Want to Hang Out With You: Bernadette and her daughters are so close that one lived with her as roommates in NYC, and they still vacation together with their partners. She shares the mindset shifts that made this possible & the writing project that helped her process her mother's final years & created a beautiful legacy for her family. 

Connect: Instagram | LinkedIn | Website | Get the Book: Daughter Lessons

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Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Yay. Hi, everyone. So good to be back.

We have Bernadette Catalana. Is that how you pronounce your last name?

Catalana.

Catalana. I should have asked you earlier.

That's OK.

we are super excited to have a conversation with her. Would you mind, Bernadette, telling your listeners, just

us a little snapshot of what a week looks like for you.

Well, I'm a lawyer in New York, so I can tell you what I did today. First thing this morning, I was down at the Eastern District of New York, Federal Courthouse, being sworn in there.

(...)

And yeah, you're probably wondering, at this stage of my career, I'm a lawyer. I've been a 29-year lawyer.(...) And I'm still doing new things. So I did that. I've had a bunch of Zoom calls and team calls, getting prepped for trial. And just, you know, it's call after call after call.(...) That's kind of my typical work day.

(...)

And then I have my other duties as the head of my family,(...) helping my daughters and helping them with their young families.(...) So it's fun. And living in New York is just like-- that's a whole thing

Just a big, big job for sure.

You haven't always lived in New York?

(...) I haven't. I moved here full time six years ago for a job, to take a job.

Wow. That's recent.

(...)

it is. It is.

What led you to the big city?

My girls.

(...)

So isn't that quite an appropriate answer for this interview? Yes, my daughter, Carly, lived here. She went to college here.(...) And my younger daughter, Courtney, at that time was a professional dancer. And she was auditioning and doing all the things. And honestly, my career had really taken off.

(...)

And we're kind of jumping in in the middle. But I think this will come full circle to this.

(...)

When my kids were younger-- so I went to law school after my girls were born.

(...)

And really, when they were young, I focused as much as I could on being home, not traveling a lot. But by the time I was 45, both of them were launching into the world. And I was able to have a really renewed sense of-- and a new focus on my career.(...) So at that point, my career really grew. And I was getting bigger clients. And it just made sense for me to move to New York because I was doing so much business here and flying in and out of New York. Before then, we were in Rochester, which is where I raised my children, Rochester, New York, which is a lovely, very little city in upstate New York. So Courtney was talking about moving here. And I just thought of my beautiful daughter in some crazy small apartment with 10 roommates. I thought, do I want that for her?(...) So I thought, well, no. If I live there and have an apartment there, then she'll have a nice place to live. So it was really--

(...)

it was kind of that logic. And now that I'm here, it makes so much sense. Because we're still-- we all live very close together(...) and are really enjoying each other. And I'm enjoying being a mother in a different way as they're adults.

So you lived together.

(...)

Courtney and I did live together. We were roommates.

(...)

And we say to each other-- and she even says this in front of her husband-- my mother is the best roommate I ever had.

(...)

And I say that to my partner as well. I say, Courtney is the best roommate I ever had,

(...)

for sure.

Oh my gosh. Well, OK. So there is so much done back there, something I'm curious about. But for our listeners,

(...)

Maria is here because she has a lot of questions about raising daughters. So she has successfully raised two daughters to adulthood.(...) And they all like each other and even wear each other's favorite roommates.

(...)

Absolutely.

But there's also so much more to your story than that piece. So I'm really excited to unpack all of it.

I want to go back to the time when you were a fresh mom. If you can

back to that first year.(...) Because that is when you made the decision to go to law school. Is that true?

(...) That's very true. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

What went into that? I had this tiny daughter and actually got pregnant with my second daughter when Carly was five months old.

(...)

Oh my gosh. I know. So Wowsa, right?

(...)

So this was happening. And I was fresh in it. And one of the things that I will say is becoming a mom and being a new mom was probably one of the most intoxicating times of my life. And I was sharing this a little bit with you before. It really was the first time in my life where I felt confident,

(...)

the motherhood and the experience of being pregnant and giving birth and really having--

(...)

I feel like I had a natural connection with Carly that gave me confidence that I never had before.(...) And I was looking at her thinking, I feel like I want her to be proud of me. I really had this burning desire inside of me. Like, I want my child, so this little tiny baby and the one on the way, I want them to think of me and think of their mom and think, wow,(...) I'm really proud of her. And also just the financial aspects of it.

(...)

It's such a commitment. We all know that.(...) But until you're in it, you don't realize, wow, it's like the meter is running in a cab. And you realize that by the time you arrive at your destination, it's going to be a huge number. And I thought, I know I'm smart.

(...)

I know I'm a good writer.

(...)

I'm going to apply to law school.(...) So I took the LSAT when I was, oh, seven months pregnant with Courtney. Could barely fit in the chair, like that old fashioned desk with the wraparound thing, so my big belly.(...) And I came home and cried because I was probably really hormonal. I should have relied on the fact that I'm a Catholic school girl all the way through. I went to Catholic school from first grade until 12th

I mention that because usually Catholic school,

say what you want. You come out of that as a good test taker, like standardized tests. I mean, those nuns drilled us.(...) So I should have just relied on that, I think. But I came home crying. I almost canceled my scores for whatever reason. At that time, you could cancel your LSAT scores and then start again at another time. But I thought, no, I'm going to-- I brushed myself off and said, you know what? If this is meant to be, it's going to be.

(...)

And I just said, let universe take over. And sure enough, I got my scores back. And it was better than I could have ever dreamed.

(...)

I got into law school. I think the day I came home from my giving birth to Courtney-- so I had Courtney in February.(...) And waiting for me in the mail was my acceptance to law school.(...) So it was-- Wow. Yeah, it was. It was really amazing.

so I really can thank my daughters for the fact that I became a lawyer. Because I don't--(...) and those-- and the nuns, yes. Can't forget the nuns. But really, my girls inspired me and also helped me feel confident that I could do it.

you're a lawyer. And when I think lawyer, I think so on top of it. You planned out your life. You know what you're going to do. I imagine you, as you are right now, beautiful, put together, the strong, confident woman.(...) Before motherhood, what did you think motherhood was going to look like? Or did you have any career aspirations?

Honestly, from the very small--(...) as a small child, I was one of seven children. I have five sisters and a brother.(...) I'm number six. So big gaggle of geese. And my mom was a single mother for much of my childhood.

(...)

So I always knew I wanted to be a mom. I felt like I was always one of those girls that had, oh, give me the baby. I always wanted to babysit. And plus, my older siblings had their kids when I was in high school. They started having their families. So I knew I wanted to be a mother.

(...)

I guess I just didn't realize the impact that it would have on me. And I was smart. I had a four-year degree. So I had a bachelor's degree.(...) I graduated from undergrad,(...) got married six months later, had Carly a year later, had Courtney 14 months later. So things were happening in rapid succession. And as I look back now for me, I think that might have been the only way for it to unfold.(...) And no, I really didn't have any big career aspirations until I had my kids. And then I realized, I don't know. I think the confidence aspect was one of the factors. And I think the fact that I had to get practical,(...) yeah, I need to have a good job in order to support these children. I think that was part of it. And then part of it was the confidence. They gave me confidence. It was just a huge boost for me and just all the positivity that you get when you have a small child.

Can you say more about the positivity? You mean like the dopamine hits from the cute baby? Are you talking about--

(...)

I think a lot

of-- yeah. Yeah. I think that for sure.

(...)

Just the-- I mean, don't you wish you had a dollar for every time you looked at your baby and said, oh, they're so cute. Look at this adorable baby, this adorable child. I mean, I know new moms. For many of you, there are those hard days. And there are those times where all you're doing is you're wiping butts. You've got kids in diapers. You've been in your pajamas for 37 hours straight. We all have those days. But on balance, I did feel--(...)

I felt such a boost.

I felt that real like I'm doing something I was meant to do. And I was just super happy.

So I'm listening to your story. I'm hearing so much beauty and nobility of intention at the time. Let me do something that will help my family financially. Also, I want to be someone who matters to me and my daughter.

(...)

I'm also thinking about the timing. And it's insane. Did anyone around you think about-- Did anyone tell you? Did anyone tell you? Yeah, in the moment. This is a little crazy.

My mother. My mother. Yes, of course, my mother said, why would you want to do that? I told her I got into law school. And her reaction was like,(...) why?(...) Why does this make sense? It makes no sense at all. And I think my mother-in-law said that, who I love and admire even though I'm not married to her son anymore. To this day, my mother-in-law was someone that I was extremely close to. And she thought I was nuts. Yeah, I think they all thought I was nuts.

(...)

But it really wasn't that big of a deal. Was it easy? No. Was it crazy? Maybe a little bit. But it wasn't ever that hard. It was just like I had to be disciplined to do it. And we did it. And my girls cooperated.

(...)

I will say, I lucked out. I had two really content babies. So I wasn't dealing with colic. I wasn't dealing with babies that didn't sleep. And I know that for mothers who have those things, because some of my sisters had those challenges,

(...)

that can be a whole different ballgame.

This is making me feel slightly better. I'm like, OK. So she had a little grace as well.

(...) I did. My girls were like little angels. They really were. They were very, very good babies. Yes, they were. They would sleep 12 hours a night. We would put them to bed at 7 o'clock. And they would get up 7 the next morning. And they did that really throughout the time I was in law school.

(...)

So I was lucky. And also, my husband worked at night.(...) So once I put them to bed, he was working. And I was able to study. So like I said, discipline. But it really wasn't all that hard.

There were some higher powers going. She needs to be a lawyer. Yeah. You know

what? There's a little of that. Like I said, the universe takes over. Once we get on the path that we're supposed to get on, I do think that the universe conspires to help us get where we need to be.

(...) So I'm hearing so much confidence from having babies. Was there ever dysphoria between how you were mothered? I mean, it sounds like your mom had a very different mothering journey than you did. Was that hard for you?

(...)

Yeah, I think, well, just being the sixth child alone, I mean, you could dedicate a whole episode to birth order. Because when you are the sixth child, and you're one of this gaggle of geese, and you have a single mother, you're not going to have a lot of one-on-one time with your mom. So that right there made my relationship with my mom different.

(...)

And I think probably just sharing with you that little bit of an insight of her reaction when I said I was going to law school, and she said, well, God, why would you want to do that?

(...)

That was really emblematic of, I think, her misunderstanding me or not kind of being able to relate to who I was. I was a very bookish child. I had a book wherever I went. I loved to read.

(...)

And I would say, was I naturally smart? Well, I really like to read. And I think that contributed to my ability to take a test and get through school and do all of those things. And my mom was probably the opposite of that.

married to my dad, who was super bookish, super smart.

(...)

And then they broke up as divorce was different in the 1970s, I will say that. It was my dad leaving us.(...) We were obviously a very Catholic family. They had seven children together. And honestly, I had no idea what was going on until one Friday afternoon, my dad said to me,(...) look, you know I'm leaving, don't you? And I thought, wow, where are you going? I literally had no idea. And then I saw him talking to my little sister. And probably the only time in my father's life I saw him crying, telling my younger sister(...) that he was leaving.

(...)

And we were sent into this orbit of sorrow.

(...)

So definitely dysphoria between my motherhood, which was very joyful.(...) And from that moment on, my mother was sent into this universe of sadness. She was so, so sad, depressed.

(...)

And at that time, it wasn't like people didn't have therapists. I mean, I am a huge advocate of therapists. I think everyone should have one. I mean, it is a friend who can never diss you. They have to listen to you. And it really does help organize your life. So at various times, I've had a therapist, and they help. It's great, great to have someone. But that's representative of when I grew up. My mother, such a taboo to go to a therapist. So she had to deal with the fact that the man that she loved, and she loved him until her dying breath,

(...)

had decided to leave her and their children.

(...)

We didn't have a car. My dad left, and no one in the family knew how to drive, including my mother.

(...)

So not only did she have the emotional

to deal with and that wound, she had a practical challenge every day. How am I going to feed seven kids? I can't even go to the grocery store.(...) So that was such an astute question, because yes, there was a huge dysphoria. And I think that honestly, I carried my mother's sadness so that when finally I emerged into my own motherhood and felt this euphoria, this joy of having this tiny baby and then having another tiny baby 14 months later, I felt unstoppable.

(...)

I really did. I felt unstoppable. And I also felt guilty that my mom probably was never going to get out of the sadness that she had.

that's an incredible story.

how amazing are women? I mean, the fact that she even got you through school, private school, without a car, kept those children. I can't-- Yeah.

My mother was a lovely, lovely person. She died two years ago in October.(...) And here is probably the most heartbreaking thing.(...) I was not with her. My older sisters were with her. My sister Kathy is a nurse. My sister Mary was the only one who stayed in our hometown of Endicott. So she was there. The two of them were there.(...) And my mother's last words were to no one, but to the angels,

(...)

Tony, which was my dad's name, we're going to make it.

(...)

And when my sister told me that, I thought, wow, that really says it all. And I thought, I hope my mom in her next life(...) can find some peace and have some fun. Because in this life, she had the sorrow of the man she loved, leave her, and also the stigma that goes along with that, especially if you're a Catholic. Because for her, her job was to be married and to have children and to kind of keep the home fires burning.

(...)

But I will tell you, she did get her driver's license eventually, which was amazing.

(...)

My little sister and I would stand on the porch and watch her take her driver's lessons. And it was dicey. We were scared.

(...)

But she knew how to drive enough that she could get to the grocery store, get to work. She had to go out and get a job to get to church.

(...)

And so she did those things. She had a lot of girlfriends, a lot of friends that really rallied around her, other mothers who were the mothers of our friends. So she was resilient. And she did have some happiness.(...) But it was a long road for her, for sure. It was a long road for her.

Feeling shattered after that.

Oh, no. Don't feel shattered.

(Laughter)

Yeah, let's turn this around. Because I've been reading some of your posts, which are just so fun and a little raw sometimes.

(...)

But I would love to hear you talk about how your writing served you in your mom's last days and served your family.

(...)

Yeah, I was--

(...)

here's how it unfolded. So my mom, her last four years were really rough.

(...)

She caught some kind of virus and actually almost died. She was on the brink of death,(...) last rites, all of it. And she went septic. And if you know what that means, systemic infection in your whole body. Very few people recover from that.(...) If you're over a certain age-- and at that time, she was, gosh, in her late 80s--

(...)

the chance of recovering your faculties, so

prescient,

slight. So she did physically recover, but she was never quite the same after that.(...) She started having hallucinations about my dad.

(...)

She was seeing him everywhere. She was seeing the woman that he left us for also. It was really kind of nuts. She was working through it. Every time she saw my brother, she was thinking it was my dad. And she would get very angry. So we were seeing this. And it wasn't constant. It would pop up.(...) In her very last days, one of the caretakers, who was this beautiful man who would put my mom to bed every night, he would get her ready for bed and put her to bed. One day, I came in for my shift. So all of my sisters and I took turns taking care of my mother. We were there every single weekend for four years.

(...)

And it was my shift. And I got there. And this caretaker was so sweet.

(...)

I said, how's my mom doing? And he said, well, she'll be around for a bit. And I said, oh, so is she doing better? He said, she's really angry at someone named Tony.

(...)

And he said, in my experience, people who are angry, it takes them a long time to actually find enough peace to die,(...) to leave us.

(...)

And I thought about it. And I had that in my mind.

(...)

And then I realized, talking to my mom and listening to her and trying to put the pieces together,(...) I realized part of it maybe wasn't angry at herself, but she felt like a failure. Because again, as a Catholic,

(...)

her essential purpose was to be in this marriage that was for her till death do us part.(...) And the fact that here she raised her children largely by herself, it hurt her. It hurt her confidence.(...) And I thought, my poor mom, she probably doesn't want to leave the Earth because she feels like she didn't do her job or she failed.

(...)

So I took it upon myself. And I knew my mom would never be able to even understand if I could read them to her.(...) But I thought, you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm going to rewrite my mother's story.

(...)

So starting probably-- she died in October. Starting in May,(...) every morning when I woke up, I rewrote a chapter of my mother's life. And everything that I could remember about her, stories about her childhood, stories about her being a teenager, of being a young mother, of being stories that I remembered with her. And we did have some fun. She and my little sister and I,

(...)

for a long time, it was just the three of us because my older siblings were a little bit older than the two of us. So it was the three of us for a long time. And we did have some fun. So I rewrote those stories. And in every story that I remembered,(...) I made my mother the heroine of the story.

(...)

And it was cathartic for me. I felt like I was offering her a wonderful gift.(...) And that even if she couldn't hear these stories or understand them, it didn't matter.(...) I was rewriting her story and just sending it out to the universe.

(...)

And what was so beautiful is during her funeral, we had a luncheon afterward. And my siblings all brought photographs. And I brought my stories. And I printed them out, like each chapter I printed out. And then where they scattered their pictures on the table, I scattered my snapshots, my little stories of my mom on the table as well. And I could see people picking them up, reading it, putting them down, and really getting(...) a feel for who my mother was. And what a very valiant woman she was surviving on her own. No car, hadn't been out in the workforce, and raising seven children. And you know what? She could have just given up, thrown in the towel.

(...)

She didn't. And she did a great job.(...) We all made it to adulthood. We all have educations. And we've all become parents and, in my mind, very good parents based on the example that she gave us.

(...)

That's truly incredible.

Yeah. What a legacy. And just the fact that she-- just her ending days, it's haunting.

(...)

It is. It is haunting. And I would encourage all of us--

(...)

there's nothing better than having a strong love for the father of your children, right?(...) But we also have to love ourselves. And how we love ourselves cannot be dependent on our partner loving us back, because we don't know what's going to happen, unfortunately.(...) And the only person that we're going to be able to count on to love us is ourselves. And we have to do that and have to have that confidence, because we lead our children that way as well, right?

(...)

For sure.

Yeah. And I think you've written about motherhood before. "Uneasy is the head that wears the crown."

(...) (Laughter)

I love you.

(Inaudible)

(...)

Yeah. I think I wrote it when Meghan Markle had her first baby.

(...)

And I wrote it because I thought, oh my gosh, this poor lady, this poor girl-- here she is. She has this baby. And everyone has something to say about it. And also, with her position being married to Harry,

(...)

I thought, this poor woman is going to be absolutely vilified, because that's what happens to all of us. Everyone thinks they can do it better than us or has something to say about how we are mothering. And the advice I give every new mother is nobody's going to know how to love your child the way you love your child. That is something that happens.

(...)

And you don't have to get a degree for that. That's not something that it takes years to earn. You have that baby and that baby that you, in most cases, carried, that baby that you dreamed about and longed for. And you have that baby. And you know what? You are the key to every decision. And you truly know what's best for your child. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. So I don't care if you've been a mother for a nanosecond. That is good advice.

(...)

Yeah. Did you feel that through most of your motherhood journey?

I did.

Were those days that you had to remind yourself?

(...)

Did I-- no. I think, like I said, I just became such a different person.

(...)

I didn't have a lot of confidence before I had my girls. I really didn't. And there are times where I might not be the most confident person in the world.(...) But literally, I feel like I became that tiger mama.

(...)

More or the mama bear, I just kind of knew. And I remember, I feel like I knew the moment.

(...)

I was in the hospital after having Carly, horrible birth. We all have those stories. For the first year after having her, someone would ask me about it. And here I was already pregnant again. So it would make it even worse. And I would start crying, remembering how painful it was. So much, so terrible. So I remember just being in the hospital. I had her right before Christmas.(...) And you have this baby. And you're like, oh my gosh, they're going to let me take this baby home? Am I qualified?(...) I mean, I had that. OK, so it was maybe like 24 hours into her being on the Earth.

(...)

But I was there. And I was waiting for my husband to come get me so we could go home.

(...)

And this very ancient man, ancient man and his wife, were walking. He had a walker. She was walking very slowly with him, walked by the hospital room where I was waiting with Carly. And I was holding her.(...) And he looked over just very slowly, and he looked over.

(...)

And like, you know how older people do? He said, oh, mother, look at that little girl with her baby. So I was the little girl. And he said, isn't that grand?(...) And then he walked on. And I thought, wow, isn't that grand? And it just-- it was like almost like he was an angel giving me a blessing.

(...)

That moment, it's like a page turned. And I thought, this is going to be magical.

(...)

In the hospital.

In the hospital, yeah.

Two men,(...) I feel like, really make a difference in sort of a spiritual journey. Like with your mom dying, like her caregiver.

Yeah.

And then in this hospital,(...) you must be a pro at forgiveness.

(...)

You know what I'm saying? Your dad left you. And you have so much grief and baggage and anger about that. And yet you let these two men touch you that you didn't even hardly know in that way. That is amazing.

(...)

Well, I will tell you, I loved my dad. I loved my dad so much. And I was my-- and I'll say it, my siblings know this. I was my dad's favorite, hands down. I was the second youngest. So the youngest is always mom's favorite. So a consolation prize, the second youngest, OK, dad gets to have that favorite. And I really-- I was close to my dad. I was like my dad.(...) And when my dad left, I was completely heartbroken.(...) And I will tell you, my friends, I'm still close friends with my grammar school friends. So from St. Ambrose Grammar School, I'm still friends. We all went to the French Open a couple of years ago. I mean, we talk all the time.(...) And they gave me a wonderful gift. They said,(...) we felt so bad for you when your dad left because we were all ordered to hate him, including you.(...) And we knew you loved him so much.

(...)

And that really-- like that acknowledgment helped me. And it also helped me forgive my dad.(...) So when he was diagnosed with cancer and dying, I made it my business to connect with him in as meaningful a way as I could.(...) And again, this is where writing served me very well. I got a bunch of postcards.(...) And every single day, I wrote to my dad. And I told him, you don't really know much about me or my life.(...) So I'm going to tell you. So in this series of postcards, I sat down and I wrote to him. And I told him about my life, about my work, about what I love.(...) And it was really incredible. And I did express my forgiveness to him and his significant other who is not the woman he left us for, by the way.(...) Someone completely different who I absolutely adore.

(...)

My dad's funeral said, you gave your father a tremendous gift.

(...)

But the funny thing about forgiveness, it really is the gift we give ourselves.

(...)

Forgiving someone allows us to let it go. And you truly can let it go. And I will say, I feel close to my dad.

(...)

He missed a lot of my life. He missed my kids' lives.

(...)

But even though he's not on the Earth anymore, I feel him. I feel his presence. And I do feel his love. Because I've allowed myself to feel that. And you hit on something incredibly important. Forgiveness, we all need it. Doesn't matter if you grew up in the most idyllic family in the world.(...) Forgiveness and compassion are really important parts,(...) I think, of being a human, but definitely of being a mother. Because our kids are going to break our hearts. You know that. Even though your kids are tiny, I'm sure there have been moments where they give you an ouch. And you're like, you know, as a mother, you just have to let it roll off your back, right?

(...)

I'm shattered. Emily, you--

(Laughter)

(...) Yeah.

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(...)

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(...)

I'm trying to--

like, I'm feeling a lot of aspiration to get to that point. Because there's so much

you to-- I don't know if you needed to undo or make different choices from the way you were parented

I mean, I'm just imagining that that has to be--

has to have been such a journey for you.

(...)

And you seem so self-reflective. You've done a lot of work.

Therapy, girl.(...) Therapy.

(...)

A lot of it is that.

(...)

So you have a good fight, and you're like, lost? Well, that's it.

(...)

Yeah, I know. Sounds crazy.

(Inaudible)

Kind of like personal parenting begin, where you were parenting based off of the wrongs done to you in your childhood or whatever happened. You were parenting from your newfound confidence. Do you remember when that started?

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah, that is really--(...) that's a very insightful question. So I'm going to give you high marks for that. Because that really-- no one has ever asked me that question before. And that's so valid, because it's true.

(...)

When does parenting go from reactive to intentional?(...) And I do feel that I did get to a point where I did have to forgive my dad. And I mean, there were a lot of questions. When my children were small, I remember calling my dad and saying, now that I have these kids, and I love them so much, and I would literally die for them or throw myself in front of a train or a car or a lion or whatever to protect them.

(...)

And how did you leave us?(...) How did you leave our home?

(...)

I asked him point blank. I do have a gift for having difficult conversations. I think maybe part of that-- maybe I'm meant to be a lawyer.

(...)

But part of my work as a lawyer, I have to have hard conversations with people. That's how justice is advanced.(...) And I had that hard conversation with my dad. And I literally made him give me an answer.

(...)

I don't know that it's satisfying me, but it started--

(...)

I looked at him as a human being.(...) And once I realized that, wow, my parents are people, number one. And two, maybe they didn't have such great parents. Ouch.(...) I mean, love Grandma and Grandpa, but were they the best parents in the world? Or what was their parenting like? Or what happened there? What was the dynamic? And I think once we have that sense of, OK, our parents were people, I have to stop blaming and realize that I can change things. And I can change it in one generation. I just have to choose to do it. And I feel like that came fairly early on for me.

(...)

But I was committed to doing it. And I did have this boost of one confidence that came with just maybe getting out of the sorrowful environment with my mom and getting to this very happy place with my husband and my children and being an adult. Being an adult is fun. I remember thinking that just even doing the adult things can be fun. And I remember going to the grocery store with Carly. And Carly said,(...) Courtney, when we're adults, we get to go to Wegmans by ourselves. Go to the grocery store. And I thought, she's so right. Just going to the grocery store can be fun.(...) So I think I try to be joyful about the things that I do. I think it makes life better. And I've taken that stance. I took that stance on parenting fairly early on. And I tried to always find the best,

(...)

concentrate on the good stuff, because there's so much good stuff, right?

(...) Yeah,(...) which is a great segue to hear about your wins with your daughters. You wrote a whole book about raising your daughters.

I did. I did. And I have it here. And I know it's hard to-- oh, wow. Your studio is good, because it shows up really well here. So I wrote this book, Daughter Lessons. And I wrote this as my girls were kind of over time.

(...)

I came to a couple of realizations. And I know you two are really far away from this, because you have tiny children. And you even have baby in the belly children that haven't even emerged yet.(...) And it seems a million years away. And I remember my older sister. So my older sister was kind of like my little mother, my oldest sister. She named me. My mother didn't even name me. When you have that many kids, you get to a point where you're like, yeah, OK, I'm not even coming up with another name here.

(...)

My sister named me.(...) So I always loved her and looked up to her like a little mother.(...) And I remember when I had Carly, she said, don't blink. It's going to go really fast. And I was so mad at her. And I thought, how fast could 18 years go?(...) Well, ladies, I am going to tell you, time flies. It really does.(...) So when I got to the point where my girls were--

(...)

they were not just launching. They were officially launched.

(...)

I thought, wow, they're not going to live with me anymore, which is kind of heartbreaking.

(...)

But then you come to an even more sobering realization,(...) there's going to be a day when I'm not here anymore. And they're not going to have me.

(...)

And I felt like I didn't really know my mom. I would have loved to have known so much more about her.

(...)

I knew a lot about her sorrow and her heartbreak. I didn't never know about her hopes or her dreams.

(...)

So I thought, what would I want to know? What would I want to know about my mother? What would I want to know about her life? What would I want to learn from her? And I thought, I'm going to get up every morning for a month, and I'm going to write down one lesson for my girls. And then that became a thing. And I ended up starting the website, which I got sidetracked from it because publishing the book is so much work.(...) But now that the book is out and I'm doing a lot of speaking engagements, et cetera, I've kind of re-engaged with that a little bit too.(...) And it's been amazing. And just the feedback that I get from other mothers who read my book. And what I love about it is people say, oh, I just leave it by my bed. I pick it up. And literally, you can read a chapter in two pages. Because that's all the time. I wrote it that way, one, because I didn't want my girls to feel bogged down with a lot of heavy stuff.

(...) (Inaudible)

Right, yeah, exactly. From beyond the grave, that would be horrible.

(...)

But I wanted it to be light and bright and just one thing. I'm going to pick it up. There's no order.

(...)

And read something. And then just a little nugget to think about.

(...)

And I think people have appreciated that the most.

Your life sounds a little bit like a romantic bee treat.

(...)

Not in a fluffy way. Just in such a romantic, beautiful-- someone wrote a fictional book about this. No, it's real.

Oh, you're so-- one of my clients, who I'm his lawyer. He is a lawyer. But he's in-house at a company. Told me that my life sounded like a sitcom.

(...)

And I thought, OK, I'll take that. Sitcom is good. Nice and light.

(...)

(Inaudible)

In a week in New York, where you live, within 30 minutes or less between both girls.

Right.

Like, what are your most joyful moments with them?

(...)

Well, right now, we've got a lot of really good things going on. Carly has two little girls.(...) OK, so we only do girls, obviously.

(...)

So she has two girls. Blake is three.

(...)

Gemma is two. And I feel like I'm living my life over again. The two of them remind me of Carly and Courtney so much. Carly is so happy. I've never seen her so happy. She's busy working.

(...)

In fact, she is. So I am on Lexington between 51st and 52nd in my office right now. Her office is on Fifth Avenue between 51st and 52nd. So we are so close that way, work proximity-wise. And then I can get to her apartment. I can walk there in probably a half an hour from here.(...) 25 minutes. I can get there on the subway in five minutes. So it's really fun. And so there are times-- one of the really fun things about us all being in New York, I was walking to work a couple of months ago. I think it was right before Mother's Day. And all of a sudden, I hear, Mom! Mom! It's Carly. She's across the street. She's walking to her office. And I'm walking from my apartment to my office. And it was so-- people were looking at us like, wow, this probably doesn't happen very often in New York.(...) So just seeing them. And we do get together quite a bit. Blake is potty training right now. So we're doing a lot of positive reinforcement, a lot of FaceTime about that and forgiving her lots of cheers.(...) And Courtney is expecting.

(...)

So that is lovely. And she's having a girl.

(...) So you really actually only do girls.

So we only do girls.(...) And we are super excited about that, too. So yeah.

(...)

I mean, life could not be better. And she and I are so close. Like, if she left her apartment and I left my apartment, we would be together in five minutes. So we do yoga together a lot. Or well, now that she's pregnant, we're not doing yoga. But we will meet for breakfast or coffee or whatever.(...) And we see each other all the time. So it's great.

That's so cool. I want to know about the times when your daughter's choices or situations in their life scared the hell out of you. What did you do?

(...)

I can. You've been on cloud nine just a little. Yeah. No, I can. I can remember certain situations where--

(...)

particularly with Carly, I have to say. And she will back me up on this.

(...)

I just remember one time her telling me some dilemma she was facing with a boyfriend. I had to-- like, inside, I was coaching myself. Don't react. Don't react. Listen. Keep your ears open and mouth shut. And I was trying so hard. Because inside of me, it was everything I had in me to want to say, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. But I didn't. And I listened. And I said, this is what I'm hearing.(...) And it sounds like you have a choice to make. And I have every confidence in you that you're going to make a good choice. And wow, that was hard. But then you've got to reward yourself as a mom. Because you're going to have a lot of tough moments. And I don't mean to paint it as, oh, like everything has been just a joy ride. Because we have had a lot of tough moments. Families do.

(...)

You think about just the hazards of daily living going through 9-11 with my children. The two of you might not have even been alive. My kids were small. At the time I was pregnant, at the time I lost that baby,(...) that was hard. And I do think the trauma of 9-11 may have impacted me.

(...)

So we do have those things. I've gone through breakups with my girls, both their breakups with significant people in their lives, my marriage to their dad.

(...)

Talk about heartache. I mean, that is heartache.

(...)

But they also know me as an adult.(...) They know me as a human. And I think that has been wonderful, not just for our relationship.

(...)

I have given them an insight and permission to see me down, to see me fall, to see me be fallible,(...) to see me struggle, to see me sad.

(...)

And they've also seen me come back. And they see what a happy person I am.(...) And when we take our own personal happiness seriously-- and I want every mother out there to do this. Because I think as young mothers, it's very easy to slip into this martyrdom of motherhood. That can happen because we have a lot going on. We're the CEO of our jobs, so of our professional selves.

(...)

Most of the time of the home, of the kids, of the--

(...)

you're eventually going to be helping your parents, taking care of sick parents. You're going to have all the things going on.

(...)

But we cannot compromise our personal happiness and our personal satisfaction. Because when we do that, I think we set an example for our kids that happiness can be given away, or that, oh, it's OK if they're not happy.(...) If your kids see that you put your own happiness as a priority, then you give them permission to do that as well. And right, isn't that what we want as parents?(...) We want our kids, no matter how small, we want them to be happy at the end of the day.(...) And that doesn't change. Our children's happiness as a mother is--

(...)

that's kind of the top, right? Or maybe I should say the bottom line.

(...)

I don't know who said this, but I love the saying, you're only as happy as your least happy child, right?

My mother said that to me. My grandpa-- oh, yeah.

Right? I mean, isn't that true?(...) It so is. So there's never a moment when you're not going to want your child to be happy.

(...)

But I'm going to tell you this, as the mother of adults,

(...)

your kids want you to be happy too. I promise. They do.

(...) I believe it. Because I think that we're two of four girls.

(...)

And seeing our parents live a rich, fulfilling life together(...) outside of us just brings me so much peace. I'm happy for them.

(...) Yes.

(...)

Absolutely.

I see. I have all the friends who are not in the same position.

(...)

It's horrible. Because you're only as happy as your least happy kid. It's not quite the same when you think about your parents. But your parents' happiness affects you, even as an adult, so dramatically.

That's a great point. So true.

(...)

so many different ways to approach it. The one thing that I think can be dangerous-- some people look at their kids as their happiness project or their achievement project. Got to get them into the On the Travel Talker team. Because if he's not on the Travel Talker team, oh my god, the world's going to end. Or I've got to get them into this preschool. There's the pressure of that in New York a little bit. Oh my gosh, if Blake doesn't get into this preschool.

(...)

I think I did set a good example for my girls that way too. I just wanted them to be happy. I really wasn't-- I wasn't married to any particular path for them. I just wanted that path to be their path.

(...)

Just wanted them to be happy.

(...)

Is there any wisdom or advice that you would give yourself as a young mom raising small girls that you know now?

Enjoy. I think that's my biggest mantra.

(...)

I am asked often, what advice would you give young parents? And I say enjoy your children. Because think of that. We give our children a gift when we enjoy them. We're not checking them off the list. OK, got to do this, got to do that.(...) Your kid shouldn't be a gatta. It should be I get to. I get to do this. I get to drive you to school. I get to make your lunch. I get to tuck you in bed at night.(...) And I think when they see the enjoyment we get from being their parents,

(...)

I mean, what better gift is that? Like someone who delights just in the fact of your being. Think of the person in your life. When you were a child, probably a grandparent. Until I had my kids, my grandmother was my favorite person on the Earth.(...) And just hearing her laugh and seeing her look at me knowing that she loved me so much,(...) it was amazing. And we can do that for our kids. We can do that every single day. Because we love them on their best day and their worst day. We're there. We--(...) this is our job.(...) And in my mind, it's the best job I ever had. And the best job-- I won't say I'm fired. I haven't been fired. My job descriptions changed. I'm just-- I'm kind of like a remote worker now who is alive sometimes when you think of it.(...) But it's wonderful. And all of it is--

(...)

it's all worth it for sure. All the lack of sleep--

(...)

I was telling Courtney the other day, she said, oh, I didn't get a good night's sleep. She's starting to get uncomfortable.

(...)

And I said, well, this is how nature gets you used to it. I think I went for 25 years without actually getting a full night's sleep because you don't.(...) Like, do you?

No. No. No. Not yet. That's for sure.

(...)

Not for a while.

(...)

Anyway.

(...)

Wow. I feel like we could talk to you forever and ever. But I want to be cognizant of your time. This has been so incredible.(...)

Are you up for a quick lightning round for today?

Yeah.(...) Let's do it.

(...)

What can you do that your daughters always pull their eyes out?

I don't know. I wish they were here to tell me that. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of things that they do it. But you know what? They're so sweet. They do it behind my back. So I don't even--

(...)

I'm not even aware that they're doing it, but I'm sure. I know that I'm a little bit of a stickler for-- like, growing up, they would say the word "like," and I would find them. I would find them. I would call it the "like police,"

I broke them. I broke them of that.

(...)

That's OK.

Biggest surprise about parenting grown daughters?

(...)

How much fun we have. Like, I never envisioned we would have so much fun. Courtney and her husband and my partner, Robert, and I went on a 10-day vacation together.

(...)

And I always-- I traveled a lot with my girls. We did a mother-daughter trip every year for a decade, and it was fantastic.

(...)

And we had lots of fun. But I didn't know it would be as great with the significant others. And we had such a good time. We just went on that trip in June, and we can't wait to do it again. It was really fun.

That's so good.

(...)

Worst advice you ever got about raising girls?

There is probably a whole-- we could do an episode on worst advice for girls,

say that one of the things that having granddaughters-- I'm trying to be very cognizant about talking about how beautiful they are, because they are beautiful. And they are just delightful. But I don't want them to think that how they look is important or has any relation to how I feel about them or their worth. And I think that's something that just societally, we've done that to little girls and big girls, right? Little girls turn into big girls.(...) So I think that's something we all need to be careful about. And I'm trying to really make sure that I do that. And we talk about it.(...) Carly and Courtney and I do talk about, wow, raising these girls, it's very different. It's very different than even just me raising them

(...)

and the generation. The phone, what do we do about the phone? People are giving their babies phones. Here, have a phone. This will distract you. And what message does that send? And how often are we on their phone? I'm also very cognizant. I'm a lawyer. I'm getting emails and calls all the time. I have to be careful. When I have Blake and Gemma, I put the phone away, because I don't want them to think that anything is more important than they are.

OK, our closer. What makes you feel beautiful?

You know what makes me feel beautiful from the inside is looking at these girls that I raised and the girls that we are raising, because now we're daughter lessons next gen, right? And I'm thinking of the legacy.

(...)

And the one that I got from my mom who handed it to me, that I handed to my girls, that they're handing to their girls,

(...)

being part of that makes me feel very proud and very beautiful.

(...)

Wow, that's a good one. That's usually a question people struggle to answer.

never know what we're

walking into with these. We know some about what we're going to interview. And I didn't expect to just be fully shattered in the best way during the interview.

(...)

So incredible. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to tell my girls about your podcast and so that they will listen to it because they're young. Now, when are you both due? When are you having your babies?

(...)

End of October.

(...)

October?

And you-- And

then like Christmas, which I didn't do on purpose.

So Courtney's having her baby at Christmas too.

(...)

Right, right. Another one, all right. I know, yeah.(...) And she's so excited. And so it's amazing. Oh, I'm so happy.

So last item of business, where can listeners find you?

Amazon.com for the Daughter Lessons book.(...) Very easy to get it. You can connect with me on LinkedIn.

(...)

You can reach out to me at daughterlessons.com, Bernadette at daughterlessons.com. If you want any advice, if you have any questions, anything like that, I am happy. I am happy to respond if you reach out to me personally.

(...)

Amazing.(...) Thank you so, so much.

(...) Thank you. I just absolutely adored. That was the best conversation.

And I will say, I've been interviewed by a lot of people. And that was probably the best interview ever.(...) It really was.

(...)

It really-- That was the weekend thing.

(...)

It really was. You two are skilled beyond your years.

Have a wonderful weekend, ladies.

(...)