Episode 49: The Richness of Interdependence with Dr. Deon Cox-Hayley: What Geriatric Medicine Can Teach Us About Motherhood

Dr. Deon Cox-Hayley is a geriatrician, author, mom, and grandma. Her career treating elderly patients gave her unique insight into who ages well—and who struggles. The fiercely independent approach American culture glorifies often backfires. This conversation explores how interdependence shapes both aging and motherhood, and the richness that happens when we prepare for needing help instead of pretending we never will.

Main Topics & Discussion

The Responsibility No One Warns You About: Dr. Deon remembers early motherhood's shock wasn't the love—it was the weight of responsibility. That sense of responsibility, she now realizes, prepared her for the full-spectrum caregiving she does today: writing, caring for her 89-year-old parents, watching her grandchildren. The thread connecting early motherhood to eldercare is that same feeling—profound responsibility for people you love.

What Chicago's South Side Taught a Geriatrician: Working at the University of Chicago in a predominantly African American community changed how Dr. Deon understood aging. There were no nursing homes in the area—multigenerational caregiving was the cultural norm. Families cared for bed-bound relatives right in their dining rooms, with teenage grandchildren learning to troubleshoot medical equipment. One 102 year-old woman lived independently despite having no family or financial resources because she'd spent decades building chosen family through tutoring, mentoring, and church involvement. When she needed help, that community reciprocated. Dr. Deon contrasts this with patients who insisted they could do everything themselves—until they suddenly couldn't, and found themselves isolated.

Three Themes for Aging Well: Dr. Deon's book outlines three patterns among people who aged well: cultivating interdependence rather than clinging to independence, living in the present moment, and staying other-centered rather than self-absorbed. The measuring stick for "aging well" isn't perfect health—it's contentedness versus deep dissatisfaction. The parallel to motherhood is striking: accepting help, being present with your kids, serving your family and community—these aren't just survival strategies for new moms, they're lifelong practices. 

Links & Discount Codes:

8Sheep Organics: Click this link for 10% off your purchase!

Kindred Bravely: THEREALMOMHUB15 for 15% off!

Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together.

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

Like what you hear? Let us know!

• Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts & Spotify – Help others discover the show!
• Join the Conversation – Join us on social (Instagram, Facebook, TikTok), or send us a message at therealmomhub@gmail.com to let us know what you'd like to hear more of.
• Share this epis...

Transcript

Well, we have Dr. Dayan

Haley is really your official name.

But

are family friends, so I know Dr. Dayan is Dayan.

Yes.

That's how we're... They call me. She has a whole lot of

accolades and training, and there's just a lot there that I forget about when we're all just hanging out on family vacations. So for listeners,

Dayan is a mom. She's a grandma now.

(...)

She specializes in geriatric medicine. You were a professor and most recently an author.

So we are so excited to have you. We're going to talk about interdependence and how that looks for aging, but then also we're hoping to get your wisdom on how that looks for early motherhood and

can you just give us like a day in the life of Dayan today?

working on writing a book, so I do spend as much time as I can in my free time sitting down at the computer here and writing. I'm trying to work on a website and

a platform and helping people hear my message. But I also spend a lot of time helping my parents. My parents are 89 years old, and so quite a bit of my responsibilities my day are growing grocery shopping for my parents, making them dinner, going over to their house and doing things for them. And then thankfully, I also

have

daughter and son-in-law and two grinsons here in town. So I also go over there and be able to watch the kids a little bit and spend time with them too.

It's like a full spectrum village community.

It is. It's wonderful. It's great joy.

if you can go back to early motherhood, which was a long time for you. But can you remember something that just shocked you to your core about becoming a mom for the first time?

the feeling of responsibility. I was expecting love, and I always wanted to be a mother. And of course you have this overwhelming feeling of love. But the responsibility, I just wasn't anticipating that.

It's kind of a circle for you too, because talking about your week, you have so many different responsibilities in any given day now.

Yeah.

It's not just the infant, the newborn.

(...)

It is, as Callie said, full spectrum.

That's a good point. That's really interesting for you to say that, because you're right. As soon as you become a mother, it really is the first step in the rest of your life of having a different level of responsibility.

Were you already a doctor practicing when you had your first?

I was just finishing my training right about at that time.

So how did that look for you? Did you know you would be a full-time working mom? Did you want to stay home and all of that?

(...)

So my husband, Roy,

laid off right about the same time our first child was born.

(...)

So we had right before he got laid off, we were looking for daycare and different things like that. Then he got laid off and he goes, "Well, I guess this means I'm supposed to be home with a baby."

(...)

really felt like I had been called to be a doctor. I didn't feel like this was something I wanted to do. It was just a calling. So it worked out well, because Roy wouldn't have ... He wouldn't use that language that it was a calling for him so much, but I think it was. I think that

just the way things were supposed to be.

For him to remain home with the kids?

Mm-hmm.

That's a ... I mean, so give us a decade. When was this?

(...)

The first child was born in 94.

So, I mean, obviously not that long ago, but it's still really rare to see dads show up at the library storytime at ... You know, that's just a really counter-cultural ... Yeah. And there are all these mommy wars now between, "Well, daycare is damaging your kids." Actually, there's no data to back that up. All of these things a woman should or shouldn't be to her kids, it's pretty loud now. I imagine it was potentially even louder in the 90s.

That's a pretty radical choice.

The funny thing is, I don't know, it didn't feel as much of a choice. It just felt like this is how it's set up for us. This is just the way it's supposed to be.

he's not that influenced by what people think, but he homeschooled the kids. And so, yeah. And so he would laugh about, "There's all these homeschool moms and then there's me, and they always want me to teach Jim."

(...)

That is

Okay. So you're writing this book after this very full career. You're just entering a new chapter of this career. And the focus is on interdependence and how that helps people age more gracefully, correct?

I would say that's one part of it. I mean, the whole ... The book is

"Mad About Aging, How I Learned to Soften the Blows of Old Age." And so the first part of the book is just talking about all the things that happen when you get old. And I've seen both responses. I've seen people that do well, and I've seen a lot of people that get mad. And so the second half of the book is talking about the people that do well, what is the formula for doing well. And one of the things that I think that we can really spend a lot of time working on is that being interdependent.(...) When you get old, you just can't be as independent as you want to be. We value being so independent, and that's great, and it helps us when we're younger. When you get older and you just can't do everything for yourselves, you become so apparent. I need other people. And some people have a hard time accepting that. So I think if you could earlier on start preparing yourself and thinking,(...) "I'm going to have to ... I need other people."

I'm hoping for a brief definition on interdependence, because I think I know what that word means.

I don't know how to have codependence floating around in my brain.

(...)

So could you just give us and listeners a definition of interdependence specifically?

So as opposed to independence, the concept of independence is, "I can do it all myself." And interdependence is, "I can do it. I can succeed with the help of others."

So it's not like being completely dependent, but you need others to succeed.

(...) Sure, including other people in your

sphere. That makes sense.

So this seems so appropriate for motherhood,

I think people are realizing that we need more community or interdependence. I think those words could be used synonymously for that, but

really hard to accept it. Even though we know

we need it, actually doing it and taking action is just not something

we're used to.

I'm wondering if you remember that from your matresence.

And or the people that you're seeing really embrace this in their older age.

If you have

any stories of them being better at that early in life too,

is interesting. This is one woman that succeeded with old age. I met her and she was 102 and she was living by herself. And then the crazy thing is she goes on to tell me that she didn't have any family. She didn't have any kids. She didn't have anybody. She didn't have much education. She'd been a domestic worker. And so she really didn't have any retirement fund or pension. Didn't really have any money. But she was able to live on her own because she built up the support system. And so she had kind of taken on people as like a surrogate daughter and this guy that kind of a surrogate son that she gave to them. And then in her old age, they were wanting to give back to her. And then she'd been active in her church and the church people were helping her. And she tutored in an after school reading tutor program for years until she was 86 years old.

(...)

And so those those kids were giving back to her.(...) So I know you guys talk a lot about motherhood and motherhood is wonderful. But I also think about these people that don't have children and how can they like build up surrogate families and you know,(...) or things happen. Sometimes your kids. I see a lot of people that their kids are just not there when they when they get older. And so the ones that are successful are the ones that have just built up a big system around them. They know I know I need other people.

I'm thinking about our grandparents.

And we're so lucky that we have four still living.

And they're very, very different human beings. But one thing one thing they all have in common is they have super robust communities. They're

mean, my grandma curses the heavens for COVID still because

she lost dinner parties.

It really grew up

and I mean, it was huge. It was catastrophic for her.

But she's still making things happen. And I remember also my whole life being fascinated by these people.

just interesting. They're interesting to talk to. They're interesting to learn from.

And yeah, they're just they're so active in various communities. It's not just one. It's multiple.

(...) So it sounds like you have good examples to look to. You guys are

And they all live states away, too. So it.

Oh, yeah.

(...)

Food for thought. So as you're writing this book, I'm wondering if there's a moment that you can go back to

really sparked your curiosity. I mean, writing a book is it's a really big investment. It's a really big time commitment. So on top of your busy week,

was there a moment that spurred you on to dig deeper?

Well, it wasn't one moment, but I would say that I spent a lot of time listening to my patients. I was fortunate that I always had a set up that I had long appointment times and had these patients longitudinally for years. And so I got to really know them well and hear their stories. And I would say the thing that really was eyeopening for me was when I realized these stories that people are telling me are different than the stories we hear kind of culturally. Or this is different than what I learned in medical school that old age is supposed to be like.

And it was repeated themes. And so in my book, I'm talking about these things. And a lot of them are amalgamations of stories because I'd hear the same story over and over and over again.

I just felt like, wow, this is not what people said old age is really like.(...) We should know that people should know that this is what it's really like instead of I use the kind of extreme example, like if I just eat right and if I just have the right balance of, you know,

micronutrients and keto or whatever, you know, and if I exercise every day, then life will be perfect. Hopefully that will prolong your good health and your life. But everybody is still going to hit a time when

start declining.

So in these stories you're hearing these patients that you're seeing, can you give us a sense of

your work looks like at that time?

was really

dove into what you specialized in.

am a geriatrician, which is sort of the opposite of a pediatrician.

there, I mean, I'm just assuming there's an element of people that accept this aging process and people that really resist it. Is that true? Okay. And then you talk about just like what you've seen as far as accepting

changes in your body and your mind and your identity, just because I feel like there's going to be so many parallels for our listeners and where we're at right now.

(...)

Well, I think, like I said, there's that one sort

that people think, if I just keep trying harder. And that might correlate with that fierce sense of independence. You know, like, if I just keep working harder, if I just keep doing, I can do it, I can do it.

(...)

And that's great. You can for a while. Hopefully that helps you succeed for longer.

(...)

But everybody, everybody, everybody is going to hit a certain point where things are failing. And those people that just haven't accepted that sometime, either, you know, my mind is slipping or my body slipping or, you know, something is, I'm not able to do it anymore. If they don't accept that that's going to change, it just makes it hard on themselves or on their family.

do you think that comes from? It's really common. I'm thinking about four. Well, I actually remember.

No, I remember four great grandparents.

That's amazing.

Two passed when I was in high school.

so those are the ones I actually have probably reliable memories.

(...)

So even in just those four circumstances, I can think of totally different energies, totally different experiences of age. I think two of the most stark opposites were married. I mean, I just,

(...)

I'm wondering

you've been able to find some commonalities for the people who are struggling, like if you found any cause to that.

(...)

Yeah, that's a good question.

I would say there, I could think of one woman who she was a successful professional and had never been married. And then when she got to the point where she had to mention she, I told her you can't drive anymore. And she was just broken. And I realized she didn't have anybody. And it became apparent to me that she had just powered through life, you know, like, I can do this myself. And then when she couldn't, it was horrible.

(...)

She just got in the car. She didn't have a driver's license anymore. She got in the car and drove to Idaho and was like looking for some long lost cousin or something. And the police ended up calling me and saying, do you know this woman? And she's here trying to find somebody. And it was so sad.

(...)

If she just had friends or, you know, just been able to say, I'm going to need some help. She would have done better.

Because we glorify independence.

Yes.

And I feel like all stages, I mean, we glorify, you know, a dependence for toddlers,

(...)

which makes sense. Like they're learning it. I get that. But then in motherhood.(...) And then I would say adulthood on. I mean, it's just really the gold standard.

And it's hard even for, you know, Emily and I have been doing these interviews for about a year now.

And the common theme is just how important community is. And even after so many people say that it's still hard for me to ask for help and for me to not be fiercely independent or to admit that I'm not okay.

It's such a cultural shift.

I think it is a cultural thing. So

when I first started out, I was at the University of Chicago.(...) And that is located on the south side of Chicago, where it is primarily African American community. And I learned a different culture than what I was raised in. And it was such it was more of a culture of interdependence. And I think that's also what you were asking about Emily, kind of the time that

that I can really remember that I really started thinking more about this is that I realized there were all sorts of middle aged women taking early retirement so they could take care of their parents. And that wasn't the that wasn't the case in the culture in the setting that I grew up in and all. And they moved mom and dad in with them and there wasn't any there weren't any nursing homes at all on the south side of Chicago when I first started out. It was just a culture you just took care of your mom and dad. So I do think there's cultural overtones to a lot of this. And I suppose even in different countries, you know, there's, there's more.

(...)

Interdependence than Americans tend to be so fiercely independent.

were talking to a woman that kind of made it her mission to visit different blue zones. Have you heard? Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, so she had gone to these different blue zones. When she had kids, she just felt like we didn't treat children culturally the way that she wanted to. And what was her heritage?

I thought she was she had Vietnamese Vietnamese. Yes, like I think her parents might have been first generation, but they were like fiercely independent, which was counter cultural for them and she learned that it was this really interesting thing but she was just saying in these blue zones that she traveled to very young children, and then very old people were treated with so much respect and love and joy and dignity.

Interesting.

And just how inspirational that was for her.

(...)

And that was shocking to me because I was a CNA in college and in high school a little bit. And I wasn't working in the really nice facilities. I mean, I was working in, you know, federally funded in it was not good. I mean, it was just, it was really really sad.

(...)

And it makes a lot of sense why people wanted to be independent because the kind of care that they were receiving wasn't quality it wasn't good.

(...)

And I think there's some tie into that too with motherhood.

(...)

Maybe the resources or again just the acceptance or the cultural joy and love and respect that could be so helpful for these two major transitions. In life.

(...)

I don't have any solution. Just makes you think

I'm, I'm not saying it's easy but I think that if with an

of giving back to your older family members.

(...)

That a lot of people don't have to end up in nursing homes and facility, not everybody of course there are going to be exceptions but we could take care of more people at home just with that attitude of like family giving back and and like you say that respect of.

(...)

Well, I think about that a lot with my parents I'm helping my parents with things and my dad is that they're very thankful and my dad saying thank you for all you do and I say well I think of all the things you all did for me and I think it's just feels like a natural to give back to your parents when they have porn so mentioned you.

(...)

Does it feel challenging frequently.

(...)

Usually,

not usually, I mean sometimes.

(...)

Most of the time not.

(...)

Really set you up.

(...)

Well that's true mentality yeah I mean it is sort of a service mentality if you're in that mindset to know, take care of it like you're taking care of your kids you're gonna take care of your other family members.

So I'm going back to your days in the clinic.

(...)

And you've got these different examples of people doing it really well sad situations probably a whole spectrum in between.

(...)

How did you land on interdependence as the solution, or as the defining factor

I mean because doctor, you could be talking about different procedures different Medicaid right

like yes that's true therapist is amazing.

(...)

Something that's so non medical, I suppose.

Yeah, that's a good question because you're right it is sort of non medical.

(...)

But I really saw that is that the reason that there were no, or the reason there were no nursing homes on the south side of Chicago was there.(...) People take care of each other to me, the way it was kind of shocking because as a geriatrician we spend a lot of time in nursing homes and there. There weren't any and wow.

(...)

That's the oh I can tell you another great story so there's.

(...)

I got a phone call from a family member there, they were taking care of their mother, who was bed bound she was in stage dementia bed bound, getting to feeding, you know really nursing home level care, but they were taking care of her at home. And

the, and I had made a house calling them before and got a phone call that they were having some trouble with the tube feeding.(...) So, I said, Okay, I'll, I'll come over on whatever day and so I showed up at the house, and this teenage boy answers the door and I said, you know, I talked to your mother about your grandmother and she's not here and I just about turned around and left and he said but I know everything about this tube feeding situation I can tell you about it.

And there's probably 15 and walk in and here's the grandmother in a hospital bed in the dining room, just in the middle and their whole life was just circulating around her some of the other kids come in and they're playing and playing all around her hospital bed and he's telling me about the problem they're having with the tube feeding and I that was like, wow, can't believe this 15 year old boy

is he's involved in his grandma's to be and he knows all the problems that's going on. He, he's problem solving.(...) I just, I, that I think Emily just kind of. Wow.(...) How can this happen. This is wonderful.

They just kept living their life they were living normal lives I mean it wasn't like they I don't think overall they felt burdened or bogged down by taking care of their grandma that was just a life.

I

just had a flash forward to like, you know if that was in my house at some point and I was throwing a dinner party because you said dining

sounds nice. Honestly, I mean, if someone is just kind of perched in half your living room. I mean hopefully you have space, which we haven't a few friends over for dinner. I mean doesn't impact anyone really.

But only positive impacts everybody right.

I mean, there's a deterrent and then right.

(...)

You know, great community I would prefer it to kind of a structured game of charades in the nursing home if I were the one in the hospital.

(...)

Right.

Right. Let's let's let's let's observe something normal around me. Oh, a normal dinner dinner party. That's how nice.

Yeah,

I feel like my CNA training just did not set me up for this mindset because it just was really hammered home that oftentimes it's better for the loved one to be in a facility.

Because yes so much abuse and things that happen and well

some families are terrible and I'm sure some nurses are terrible, you know, it just humanity.

I don't know. I'm just really having a shift right now perspective because I really that's been what I what I believed it when I've been told.

I don't know if this for sure but this is just kind of my thoughts on the subject is that it was kind of a cultural thing that developed like when I was growing up in the 1960s particular like I know my parents have told me that they started out with not many things at all. They both started out in homes that, you know, hardly had indoor plumbing and and then throughout their lives all these modern conveniences come on you know you get all these great things you get all the appliances you know you're, you don't have to cut wood and have a wood burning stove anymore and you have electrical appliances and you start having this life of these. And that was really happening right in the 60s. And I think at the same time, culturally, people were thinking, we've got time for ourselves we can do whatever we want we can. And then they sort of bought in at the same time nursing homes were just,

(...)

you know, they're the whole nursing home thing, there weren't a lot of nursing homes before that. And in the 1960s all these nursing homes start becoming a bigger deal, and people were buying into yes I can have this great life of these and oh it's too bad but this beautiful place we can put grandma in here and she'll be taken care of and I can keep living my life and.

(...)

And so it was just kind of a mindset like I can I can have it all I can have. I don't have to be bogged down by all of these things. And that was part of that whole idea about like nursing homes are actually going to be better for people.(...) And I bought into that until I until I saw it on the south side of Chicago until I saw that the difference of family members can take care of people and maybe they're getting a lot. Maybe they're getting better care.

I think about that when I'm thinking about motherhood right now, because it's kind of trending on social for moms to name their villages. I've seen a few reels where they're like yeah,(...) people who say the village is dead in 2025 don't know what they're talking about.

I have Instacart.

(...)

Oh, I see.

I have. I mean, they're like, great. If you have those resources.

(...)

What kind of dopamine hit or whatever did you not receive.

(...)

Picking up off your porch with zero human and rack whatever.

(...)

Thinking about the fact that I don't feel community is necessarily made space in America for babies.

(...)

Okay.

And I think the same is true for our elderly.

(...)

So it might be kind of a similar similar occurrence.

(...)

We don't

have patience to wait for the toddler. We don't see as a culture the joy in the toddler testing the reins of freedom in the park, or not being able to regulate emotions because that's normal for a two year old.

(...)

We don't have time to wait for someone who's pushing a cart really slowly down the aisle in the grocery aisle like people are not offering to help reach that thing on the high shelf.

That's parallel there for me.

That's yeah.

(...)

I mean, I think that on one end being kind of annoyed by American culture

my baby, like if I'm in a very family friendly space I'm like, Oh, this is phenomenal. People get it. We're good.

I'm in an adult space with the baby though I'm like, Okay, people like, Are you really, do you not see what's going on here.

(...)

I'm like, Oh, I'm going to have to go to the other end to now, you know, like,

And the people in the middle, honestly the ones still participating in the workforce and making things run

probably the ones who are less patient with both ends.

(...)

Both like what are some

that you've seen of people

this kind of alternative life in terms of their well

I think they're they're older their elderly dignity.

(...)

I think a couple things that come to mind and I think it would apply for children as well as older people is the whole patients thing I mean, it's easy to say patients but as you know, it's, that's hard to practice.

(...)

And

of where people are at. I mean, I think I thought you made a good point when you were talking about you have that two year old that doesn't know how to, to regulate their emotions yet accepting that's, you can't expect this two year old to act like a 15 year old there, you know, they're, they're not an adult they're a two year old.(...) And the same way to be the case say with somebody with dementia or something like they're, they can't operate in the same way you've just got to accept.

So, putting this book together.

Are you doing a lot of research on like are you tracking data, what can people expect from this book.

are some, there are some data that will be in the book but a lot is based on these stories that I've given you guys a few of them that kind of the stories and like I said the repeated themes and organizing those in a way that people can see that this is, this is what I've I've heard people really say these are the things that I've seen that are dysfunctional and these are the things that are positive adaptations to the changes that happen with age.

three themes for success.

Interdependence, I'm in was is a really big one.

thing is living in the moment. If you live in the moment, then you're going to be less likely to

all all freaked out when your life is short, you don't have a lot left, you're happy in the moment instead of worrying about I don't have anything to. Look forward to in the future.

And another thing I would say is that theme that people that are successful happens with them as are those that give to other people, the people that are giving, and instead of being self centered their other centered are the ones that end up feeling happiest and old age.

(...)

So you're measurable for like a success or a wind story. Do you have

things that you're that you've identified that they've aged well is it is it an attitude is it a sense of contented like what is the measuring stick I suppose that

you're

that's an excellent question.

It's more of that. Like you say, that sense of contentedness. I would say that

to me is disturbing when people are so discontented and they would come to me and keep saying, you know, I'm so depressed. I have no energy. I don't have nothing worth to live for. And of course, there's depression and you're trying to teach the depression, but you realize it's more than that. It's deeper than just that, as opposed to the people that say it just made me happy to have these people are I think it gives everybody happiness to say, I realize my I'm in my twilight years, but I have a lot of good things I can give to other people. I there are things that I'm thankful for. I think thankfulness is really good. There are speaking of data, there are studies on gratitude, the people that did gratitude exercises have happier lives.

That is also a common theme with our guests. Just gratitude journaling, starting

motherhood, even if you can, or however gratitude practices look for you.

Hearing you talk feels like an anecdote, an antidote to a conversation Emily and I were having yesterday because she's having some health things with her pregnancy.

That's causing her to have to work with the hospital system, and she did a birth center before it was a very different experience.(...) Phenomenal.

Loved that birth center.(...) Yeah. And hospital, I'm wearing a fight.

(...) Yeah.(...) Oh, I'm sorry.

(...)

One of my kids that

I'm trying to get answers to and I just don't feel like I'm getting, you know, the acknowledgement or the concern.

(...)

I'm just honestly hearing you say,

really writing a book from a place of storytelling and feelings and just human connectedness is

and doesn't sound like the medical field that I know at all.

Good. I'm cool.

Do you feel like you're an outlier.

Yes.(...) Yes.

(...)

I'm so frustrated because for

a lot of different reasons, medicine has partially become very robotic.(...) It's just,

(...)

you know, right.

(...)

You got to check off the list. I was talking to my dad about that yesterday. He was trying to tell somebody on an appointment something I said, you didn't really care that much. They just have to check off the list, you know, yes or no.

I feel that as a patient.

(...)

And I hate that. And so I am thankful. I was really blessed that I was able to have these longer appointment times and in a time when there weren't as many checklists and you know you could you could address what the patient really wanted to address instead of the 20 required questions that you have, you know, all those other.

You know what I'm talking about.

(...)

Because Kelly brought up agreements. I do need to say publicly my midwife team still phenomenal. The individuals that I'm working with on that team, phenomenal caretakers,

but the hoop jumping.

It's the system. The system.

What do I need to check off so that my boss knows I'm not going to get a suit? Yeah. No, I'm not a fan.

So, thinking back to all these examples of

who had really healthy interdependence, or who were aging really gracefully.(...) Do you have a handful of examples or gestures that their community were regularly making. I'm looking for tactics that we could be employing or that we ought to be doing for the elders.(...) And I'm going to guess there's some parallels to moms too when they're kind of the laundry list of things we're considering in terms of our elders and caring for them.

This might be full circle because I'm just thinking about this, that sense of responsibility and you asked me at the first and I was talking about that feeling of responsibility with my first baby but I think that family responsibility, and you know if there are people that don't have families in the older adults, if there are people that don't have families being aware that I need to step up and be like a family to this, everybody in their families died or whatever that. But that sometimes it's hard and you don't want to do it, but I think having that mindset of response, we're responsible for each other. We're responsible for,

(...)

yeah, grandpa who, you know, takes a long time to take him anywhere or, you know, whatever you're in. But that's, we're going to do that because that's what we're here to do. And like you say that probably applies, it's the same feeling you have with your children, right? But sometimes you don't feel like doing it, but you do it because you're responsible for this little one.

Yeah, there are also some hormones bonding you to make some little ones.

That

is, yes, that is true. But

I bet you have done some research on just the psychology of giving or you know you've read it.

And I imagine that it's not fully altruistic you know when you're giving

to your elders to that generation to your baby whoever it is, like, yes, it actually will benefit you as well, even though in our culture I need me time, you know, and sure you you do, you might but I think we ignore the need to also serve others and how that benefits healthy individuals in midlife.

(...) I agree 100% with you.

(...)

One thing I was thinking about when you were saying that is also the just bringing up the old people get so lonesome. There's so much lonesomeness.

You know, it's just not as easy to get out of the house anymore.(...) And a lot of people are really old people are not driving anymore or, and their friends have died and their spouse have died and things like that. So, when you're talking about doing these things, not completely altruistically but partially just because I, you know, I would, you know, you just do them you just go through it. And I would bring up the whole idea about just reaching out to older people can just make a huge difference to a phone call, stopping by and visiting people.

(...)

I've seen a lot of people that live in facilities nursing homes assisted livings and family go Oh they got lots of things going on there they got people around them, but they still just yearn, there's still a lot of downtime and they yearn for for family connection.

(...)

There's a lot of downtime and also, I'm thinking about the many visits that we've made

growing up to family members in these places and I'm like,

(...)

you know that people are being paid to set up these activities there's there's something transactional and it's kind of like, as, as myself in my 30s, would I even pay to show up to one of these structured act, no I would not spend my money on that is this supposed to be good care and good entertainment for people like they're adults, they live full adult lives. This is not toddler arts and crafts. I'm sorry.

(...)

I'm just going back to your image of grandma being in the dining room and I'm like, Yeah, I would actually way rather be at a dinner party in that stage your life. Yeah, if I'm not, I don't even need to say anything I can just be a fly on the wall I would so

prefer that to

be a fly on the wall. Yeah, some of the activity and I and I people who are doing these activities it's I think they're doing a lot of good.

(...)

They are but manufactured. But I did. That made me think of another funny story is there was this arts and crafts thing activity going on and one of the assisted livings, and it was about this time of year, and they said, Oh, we're going to do a day of the dead, you know, we're going to decorate these decorations for day of the dead and of course, the old people there didn't even understand what the day of the day was really good.

(...)

And one of the ladies goes, can't we just paint pumpkins.

(...)

I know they were trying to do something fun but I think also you know kind of knowing your audience taking the extra time to, and you were talking about that like being known have somebody just really spend the time to know you and the things that are important to

And I'm just saying about a bunch of skulls.

(...)

They're

close to the end of their life and they're going day of the day.

(...)

I'm hoping to know what you hope leaders will take away from your book.

I hope that people will recognize that they can prepare for old age, but they may not know what it's really like and if they understand the realities, they can be fully prepared going into it.

So are you outlining realities in the book.

(...)

The first half of the book is setting up what really happens in the second half of the book is how can you respond to those.

(...)

honestly thinking, like, this is kind of the work we ought to be doing in our 40s.(...) You know, this is not a book I'm going to feel really good about getting from the library in my 80s.(...) Yes, doing it in service of a family member who's at that point in, you know, when you're seeking greater understanding for what they're going through.

(...)

That's, that's just so valuable.

mean, we prepare for the motherhood transition, at least like the birth, we talked so much about that you take a class you take. Is that even common for

know.

So that that would be my dream for the future is that people would talk about like you say you hang out with people your your age and you'd front talk about motherhood. And so what if people middle age start talking about. I mean, people do. But I think that that's unrealistic. You know, they'll say, I can't believe my mother didn't you know, I told her to do this and she didn't do it. And I wish that it would be more,(...) oh, maybe my mother's having a hard time with this because and if I prepared or if I thought about this in advance, I can do better when I'm her age.

Anything else, Diane, that you really want to leave our audience with from your research,

from your work, from your book, anything that we

Well,

would say some of this is kind of can get depressing. And so

pastor is really good about he always talks about just stay in the game, stay in the game. And I think that's a good message to tell people that are getting older and really struggling with things is just that perseverance and stay in the game.

Literally.

(...)

That's not funny.

I'm to laugh some right. I suppose.

(...)

Are you ready for lightning round.

What's one piece of advice you'd give your younger self about accepting help.

to realize that they're really, there's beauty in that interdependence.

(...)

And it's actually

like dysfunction, if you try to be too independent when you get old.

Finish the thought graceful aging and graceful matrescence both require like

less about the changes that happen,(...) thoughtful consideration of accepting others and what they're going through.

What's the most ridiculous thing you believed about motherhood before becoming a mother.

(...)

I hope that I could do it all.

(...)

Like when

Okay, one word to describe what you hope listeners take away from today's conversation.

say

(...)

our closing question. What makes you feel beautiful.

People. I love people I love being around people interacting with people.

You're gonna age so gracefully. Thank you.

(...)

There's so many things that you do that you realize deep down or because you're just like preparing yourself for, you know, I'm sure I do this because to prepare myself.

Where can our listeners find you,

I'm at day on Haley.com.

Thank you so much. Great hearing from you. And I love the parallels.(...) And I'll be thinking about them into the night, Kevin will be like, why aren't you sleeping again, and another great interview I'm sorry.

you all for having me I this has been, this has been a great joy talking to you.

Thank you so much. Yes, too. Thanks so much, Dan.