Episode 69: Enacting Change: Why “Matrescence” Still Isn’t Recognized, Why the Push to Get it in the Dictionary Matters, and How You Can Help

It’s hard to understand something you can’t name. Harder to explain why everything feels different. Harder to give yourself grace, when you can't put your finger on exactly what it is that you need grace for. Because things that are not named are often invisible to the people outside of the direct experience. 

Language isn’t just descriptive—it’s directive. It tells us what matters, what’s normal, and what deserves attention.

We have words for adolescence. For burnout. For midlife crisis.
But the transition into motherhood? Still largely unnamed outside of buzzwords like 'postpartum depression', or the expectation to 'bounce back'.

We’ve named countless human experiences into legitimacy. Becoming a mother isn’t fully one of them.

That’s what matrescence is trying to change. Matrescence explains so much of what women experience when they become mothers: the identity shift, the emotional intensity, the reordering of everything that once felt stable.

In this episode, we’re revisiting one of our most important conversations on matrescence—why it matters, why it’s been overlooked, and why having language for this season changes how we move through it.

There’s also a growing campaign to get “matrescence” officially added to the dictionary and  WE ARE IN!

If you’ve ever felt like motherhood changed you in ways you couldn’t quite explain, this episode will likely put words to it.

And if you believe this experience deserves to be named, recognized, and understood.....add your name to the petition.

👉 Sign the petition: It's Time to GAF About Mothers

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Host & Show Info

Hosted by: Cally & Emily O’Leary

About the Hosts: We’re real moms and real sisters. We may look and sound alike, but our motherhood journeys are uniquely ours. We all do Motherhood differently, and thank goodness for that. Let’s learn and grow together. 

Podcast Website: https://therealmomhub.com/

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Transcript

Okay, I'm very excited about this episode.(...) Really need to get your thoughts on it. I came across this word a few days ago and it hit me like a gut punch. I was like, I felt so seen and it crystallized in my mind everything that you and I are trying to do here on this platform. There's so much power for me in language and in perspective. And you and I started this because we're already debriefing with each other all the time, learning from each other's experiences, each other's stories.(...) We're here to tell our stories as well as the women around us so that we all feel seen. We all feel more heard, understood. So that's what this word did for me. And it was a word that I actually came across in pregnancy. It was not a new word for me, but something about the way it was presented was really what hit me, what said to me like, Hey, I see you like me too.

Here's the word. Are you ready? It's mattress sense. You said it really weird. Can you try it? Okay. So I've been saying matressence. Matressence sounds way better to me. And then I, since this word came into my brain a couple of days ago, I've been listening to some Ted talks, some interviews. Matressence. That's ugly. Okay. Well, I didn't come up with the word. I'm we can say, make sense. Like let's say, let's say, let's say, let's say, let's fine. No, we can't. Great. We're going to do that right now here and there.(...) So I'm going to start with how this word came to be and then why it hit me in the gut recently.

(...)

So Dana Raphael was an anthropologist in the 1970s and she's the one who coined this term,(...) which is the rite of passage where changes occur in a woman's physical state, in her status within the group, in her emotional life, in her focus of daily activity, in her own identity,(...) and in her relationships with all those around her through new motherhood. So this is highly complex topic. And when you just read it off like that, that's kind of how I held the word like a year ago. And I was like, yeah, of course it's a lot new motherhood. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like too much to process. Yeah. I'm like, okay.

Yeah. Thanks. Moving on.

Yeah.

What I recently saw was that, and this is part of her original paper, I believe. Um,

(...)

one of the women I fell on Instagram and I should have saved the post and I didn't, I couldn't find it today, but she, she juxtaposed matressants against adolescents and that's when it changed everything for me because we've all gone, gone through adolescence. Like as a society, if you were to ask anyone in the country, well, what is adolescence, they could probably tell you and they would have some feels.

They would say, we say the puberty word.

Oh my God.

(...)

They would have a lot of feels. Um, it's normalized. It's everywhere in society. It is understood.

Yeah.

All of the challenges.(...) Yes. Exactly. You go through it together in school. There's resources together. Yeah.

You're afforded certain. Great. So that is what I deeply want from a trust sense for someone who I don't know on the internet to say, do you remember that time when your whole body changed? You didn't know who you were when you looked in the mirror anymore. And at the same time you had the most massive hormonal shifts of your life. Your skin was breaking out. You didn't know who you were in relation to your friends anymore based on changes. You didn't know who you were in relation to the opposite sex. Your relationship with your parent figures are changing with your family.(...) With the women in the grocery line, like all of your workplace.

(...)

Yeah. There's no part of your life that's not touched by that.

No.

Yeah.

And then to, I just got to thinking about what society, how they normalize and understand that a lesson. And that is deeply what I want for a trust sense.

So when 1973, okay. So it's been around like, I mean, okay. The concept has been around literally forever. Right. But the word, like actually trying to explain it and make it something that is normalized started in the seventies, which was a while ago. I mean, it's almost 2025. Yeah. And I hadn't heard that word until becoming a mother and was listening to a mom podcast when I heard that word for the first time.

What did you think when you heard that word? Do you remember?

Did it strike you? Yes. I do remember being really excited that there was a word, but it was pretty early on, like, I think it was only a couple of months postpartum. And so I, I don't think I fully understood it because it, it's like pure word. I mean, it takes a long time. I'm not really sure when it stops.

(...)

You know, like I don't, we probably haven't even done enough research on it. And it's one of those things where it's going to be different for everybody. But I just remember feeling like a sense of awe and permission to just totally be transformed, which is funny. I mean, that's such a me thing to say, like I needed permission to feel transformation in motherhood, but yeah, but I didn't understand it then. So I'm glad you're bringing it back up because I think I might have a new way of really connecting with it.

Yeah. So I think we should debrief so far listeners. We debrief all the time. A debrief is like, you know, how did you, you know, let's talk about this thing that happened at the family gathering or

literally all the help that starts with like, so blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. That's the debrief. That's the loose structure. I actually have more of a structure for this debrief, but I just want to make it clear that neither of us are experts. And as I've sat with this word for the past few days and looked into it, there are so many experts on this topic who are writing books, who are giving TED talks to her. And so we're going to definitely link those in the show notes and I highly encourage you to go and check out the actual experts, our focus, and this is what we do on the podcast here is just to talk through our own lived experience, kind of process in real time together. But please go check out the experts as well. And that brings me to the next piece of the journey of this word. A psychiatrist, Dr. Alexandra Sachs is the one who really popularized the term more recently. So she was talking to a lot of patients who were experiencing postpartum depression symptoms and she would take them through the clinical diagnoses. And they didn't always have postpartum depression in the way that she understood it clinically.(...) And this happened so frequently that she was like, Oh my God, what is happening? Like these women, just because I'm not diagnosing them with this clinical condition doesn't mean that they're not all feeling the same really difficult thing. How do we talk about this? Is there a word for this? Nothing exists in my medical training. And that's when she came across this paper. Um, and so I do encourage everyone to check out her TED talk. There's so many views. We'll link it in the notes.

That was, so her essay, the birth of a mother was in 2017. So it was brought to the public's attention recently, like in 2017.(...) That's wild to me. Yeah.

Yep.(...) Zoe Blasky in the UK is doing a lot with much, she runs mother kind. She's doing really good work there. Again, we'll link these women. Go women. I know. I know. Here's what I'm thinking for today. I think we should talk about the similarities between adolescence and matressence, and we can talk about how they're different.

(...)

And then I do want to dive into just the postpartum depression conversation a little bit too. I think they're adjacent. You'll love it. Okay, great. So I have a little table drawn up because what I don't know what I think about something, it's helpful for me to go girl, a little grid. So the similarities, I have like five columns, okay, or different like categories for us to talk about.(...) Adolescence and matressence, they both have transition periods. It's like a both a period of change. It's a period of extreme biological change as well. It's accompanied by emotional angst, turmoil, high highs, low lows.

(...)

And you're essentially just reshaping your identity during both of these periods. And then there are cultural reactions or expectations associated with both as well or misunderstand. We'll start with transition periods.

And I want to giggle because on my like AI Google search of the word right at the way at the bottom, it says, it just says some ways to ease the transition include self-care. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Wait, I'm done dividing responsibilities with a partner. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Resting when possible, getting help from a loved one.

Do you feel rested right now, Kelly?

I don't know. Like none of them are wrong. No, it's just so funny that like there's this big transition and like that's what they say. And it's like, but how, how? Okay. So they're both. So adolescence first. Okay, you go.

Well, they're both a major transition of like who you are and what you're supposed to do in life and you're, you're like redefining who you are in with what terms you'd like to operate in the world.

But I think the nice part is adolescence, you really like don't have the brain fully develop. So you really can't make sense of it. And it's just kind of a mess.

(...) It's totally a mess, but there are constraints put around that for your safety. You have parents. Well, I was going to say, if you are lucky enough to have reliable parents or parent figures, that's a big one. If you're, you know, if you, you have school,

you

know, what you're going to be doing Monday through Friday at a bare minimum, what's expected of you during those hours.

And like, you know what you need to accomplish to be successful in society. Like, you know, you need to do your homework and show up. And yeah.

And if you choose to not do those things, I mean, you're at the point in life when you can kind of make that choice. And you're also old enough to understand there are repercussions, but they're kind of laid out for you. It helps. I think that you're all in it together

at the same time. Well, I mean, in a general chunk of time.

Well, and that's the other thing. Adolescence, you're like, it's kind of between the ages of like 10 and 20.(...) It usually doesn't take that long for everybody. But yeah, you you kind of know like, okay, this is going to be over at some point. My body is changing, but I know it's going to be over. And when it's over, this is what I can expect.

Yeah, I always thought of that as just my adult body. Like, I thought, yes, that was like the end. And then until you start, what's the point when you actually start like dying?

(...)

Like deteriorating, right? Like, don't tell me my body or it until I hit this age and which kid and that's what I'm going to start. Whatever. And it's fine. That's the circle of life. I never thought, oh, I'm going to do this again.

No. And it's like really awkward when you're like 18 and you're like, this is my adult body, which I think I did. Yeah, when I was a whole.(...) Yeah, it's not really adult body, but you know, like it's still a weird gray area. I get it. Like I would take matrasins frankly over adolescence any day of the week.

But yeah. Which is a beautiful thing because it's really hard. It is.(...) Yeah. And I'm trying to think back to adolescence for you versus me. Like for you, you were the first sister. So you had a bit more of the spotlight situation, I think. Oh, it was deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. And then when it was like it had become kind of a joke when it got to me. Yeah, like it's like just tricky for every kid. It just is. And every parent, I'm sure.

Oh God, I don't want to think about that.

Boys. I don't know. Like boys. I've always heard that's easier. So we'll see. Well, you got, oh, funny. I do. Yes, I sure do. Yep. So both

there's like a period of time, but I do think adolescence is like, okay, the cutoff is kind of college. Do you only go through matrasins once and it's the first time you have a baby or do you go through it every time a new with each kid?

Well, I, I think it's once, sorry. I need a candle. It was available.

(...)

I'm like hot box. It's a nice candle. Okay. Do we go through it more than once? I don't think so. That's my hot take. Okay. I think it's different every time, but I think that first child, first becoming a mother, I mean, that's earth shattering in every way it could be. Then nothing can be that earth shattering again. Okay.

Here. So that's my hot take as someone who's had a single child also. So my, I'm curious if you could please do a little market research for me. I'll ask mom what she thinks because there are 11 years between Naomi and me or youngest sister. Okay. But I know you have a couple of moms in your circle who also chose to get pregnant or didn't choose whatever, have a child much later. So I'm curious what their take is. Like, do you go through it all over again? Or you mean like spaced out kids? Sorry. Yep. Oh yeah. Curious. I'm just curious. I want to know what do they think?

I want to know. Okay. I want to know. So do you do my trust in smarter than once?

Yeah. Oh, people text us. Let me know what you think. Are you well? No.

Look at my pen. What is happening over there? Sorry. I'm a hot mess. It was feeling pretty actually together today. Okay. All right. On my to dos. Yeah. That's it. Cause I do have a couple of friends that have like berries, like we're talking 20 years based. Yeah. Wild. I know. But yes. No, that's wild. I really, I mean, I've had two and they were close. Together, but I just, nothing can be like the first time. Thank God. It's my hot take. I don't know. We'll see.

(...)

Let's go back there a little bit with biological changes. Like you remember bad skin or difference between being friends with a guy or maybe like for me, I always use too much logic. So I thought my friends crushes were like really silly at the time, which is like so annoying to be that girl. Like, why was I like that?

You know, did you really not have any crushes?

I don't recall actual, like I definitely noticed a shift of like, Oh, he's cute. Oh, I'm actually like really nervous around him.

Okay. Okay. But you just like, didn't let yourself call it a crush. Totally.

Or like, I didn't embrace the daydreaming or the, like, I just didn't think that it was like when I was 14 and I had a high school boyfriend, like, you know, through most of high school, I'm not saying that I'm just, when it first started.(...) And I was noticing those changes. I was very cognizant of the fact that I was still a kid. Like we were only play acting at mature adult romantic relationships. It wasn't like the real deal.

And I was a romantic, like I was laying out, you know, romantic love scenes in my head. I did that.

Okay. But they were mostly like made up care. Like I was more likely to do that with the character of a novel than like a real person. Are Christian Bale and newsies.

He's in newsies. Oh, he is the guy in news unit. Oh, I know. Oh my gosh. Him singing. He's got like his cowboy hat on. He's singing Santa Fe. Oh, and he can dance. What? His singing is like fine, but it's fine.

(...)

That was my, I can tell you 100%. That was my first crush. Maybe my only like real celebrity crush and I was head over heels. Whoa.

Okay. How funny is that? That's a crowd. Now I have to watch newsies.

It's really good. It's really, really good. Okay.

Okay. I believe you. I've heard this feedback from others also just having

a great based on a true story. Everybody should watch newsies. Okay.

All right. Shout out.

(...)

So I guess, you know, we're kind of hopping into like redefining relationships in this one, but it like those hormone changes were what was affecting that like they're strong enough to affect your daydreams, who you think about your fascination with others. And I mean, like kind of crazier with a baby.

(...) Yeah, definitely less acceptable. What do you mean? I mean, you like in adolescence, everyone just assumes you're going to have these crazy hormones and have crushes and, you know, yeah. In motherhood, that's not like an assumed thing. Oh, she has a new baby. She might be feral. It's like, Oh, she has a new baby. She has this beautiful open motherly heart.

(...)

Oh, or like the assumptions are potentially incorrect. They're not one size fits all like, Oh, the myth that when you have your baby, you're going to bond immediately and the baby is going to be your everything. And it's going to be so joyful and so happy. And you're going to enter this so gracefully. Like that's a bald face lie.

(...)

Which I think we have kind of acknowledged that part, thankfully. Yeah. At least women,(...) it seems at least our generation maybe. Sure.

Well, I think the attachment to the baby too, like that urge to hold them and get the oxytocin hit so constantly. You can talk about the hormones. You can talk about postpartum hormones, but I think there's something deeper there in terms of like leaving your baby or how hard that is. That's something that I think societally we don't necessarily recognize. Like something in your body is urging you screaming to not do that. Screaming for you to be in physical contact with your baby.

And at the same time, you might be legitimately physically screaming at your partner to take this baby because you need a fishing break.

(...)

Yes. Well, your body isn't screaming at you that you need to be holding this baby. Right. And that is crazy making. And I'm laughing because it's crazy. Yeah. It's not something to laugh about. I'm just laughing because it's so wild.

I never felt crazy as an adolescent ever. Oh, yeah. No, like I never questioned my mental sanity or like adjustments I needed to make in my life based on how I was feeling or reacting or responding to my environment. It is a fresh mother. I'm like,(...) oh my God, do I need help?

Yeah, because in adolescence, we're not cognizant enough to do that. Like that's not even really developmentally appropriate versus motherhood. Like depending on how old you are, like you can your prefrontal cortex is developed.

Sure.

You have the ability to do that. So then it's almost like worse when you feel like you can't.

Yeah. No, like I have X number of years of data built up by my own behavior and ability to exist healthily successfully. And I it's like that's all irrelevant now. I can't access any of those tools.

(...) Mm hmm.

Yeah. Also like when you're going through adolescence, it doesn't hurt. Oh, you know, and when you've just had a baby, like regardless of how it came out, like your body just hurts like like intense pain,(...) which is just like a surprising thing to deal with. I mean, you know, what's going to come, but it's just especially when you're young and pretty healthy, like not used to having your body be just in pain. Like, sure.(...) Yeah. No, you're right. Weird. Yeah. I feel like I'm underplaying it and I don't mean to be when you're saying it's weird. Well, it's not just my tone of voice. It's just, yeah.

Well, like when you do a hard thing for me, at least I think it's good to talk about it and set some expectations. Yeah. Or just because you've done it once doesn't mean it will be the same again. As a society right now, I think we're actually reveling too much sometimes, like exploring all of the difficulties and talking about all of it. And I'm like, if that helps you great, but I don't know if that's necessarily something we that's helpful to have.

I don't know. It's not we're talking about today, but it's a thing. Yes.

Yeah. Biological changes. Okay. We're talking about hormones. Also the physical, like my body's never going to be the same ever again. No. Because you can fit into genes again. Doesn't mean that you're shaped the same or that when the genes come off, you look the same. Like, I think you show up to work or wherever. And, you know, eventually at a certain point, people couldn't tell that you just had a baby, but like swimsuit season will never be the same.

For some women it is, but just not all. I do just feel like I have a more stereotypically maternal shape now. Those birthing hips are real.

(...)

After number two for you though. Yeah. More so than number one. Yep. Yeah. I feel like once you do adolescence, like you're so awkward, but when you start to get over the awkwardness, you should feel kind of hot. You know, you're like, Oh, I'm, you know, a sexual being now. And I wasn't before. And this is cool. But I actually feel that way in a different way, but just as empowering after having birthed a child, like it's more of a goddess feeling or like a hear me roar feeling. Especially with my husband. I think it just gave me more body confidence in some ways because it, my body is so purposeful. So even though I look different,(...) it's for a purpose and it's for a reason. And it did something incredible. And I do think it made me feel not hot, but I don't know. I don't know if beautiful is the word. Just strong, powerful. Just yeah. Yeah.

I feel that it's like an internal knowing.

(...)

And for me, it's not, I feel like when you're young, it's in your past puberty and you're going out to a bar, you're like,

(...)

right. Did he notice me? Cause I look really good tonight. Yeah. If he didn't like, sorry for you.

(...)

Now I'm like, couldn't care less. And like sometimes me and maybe you're looking at me and I feel great. And if this person doesn't see it, like it just doesn't even cross my mind anymore. Like I literally don't care. Like if you, if you can't see it, that's your loss. Because like this, this body has given me and my family so much richness that like you can't even fathom unless it happens to you. And God, I hope it does, you know? Well, and like the,

the young men, you know, we look young enough where sometimes it'll be like all of a high school boy, for instance, that will like give me the once over. And it's just hilarious.(...) It's so freaking funny now. Or even like someone that's my age, but that's not a dad, you know, even that to me is just so funny because they just don't

have a collude. Like you don't even know why sexual attraction is the fishing coolest thing. Yes.

Yeah. It's just so funny. Like you think it's all about sex buddy.

So funny. I think we got off topic, but I loved it. That was fun. So, okay. We talked about physical changes, emotional turmoil or angst. There's both in both adolescents have been trust since there's a whole lot of that high highs, low lows, feeling like pressure or stress or anxiety meeting what you think life demands of you, whether it's getting into college or like high test scores or that competition or that game that you desperately want to show up for. Well, in adolescence or as a mom going back to work or honestly, just maintaining relationships with other friends can be so yeah, there's a lot there emotionally. Both are different, but similar.

Yeah. But again, like when, I mean, my trust and sake, there's a little being depending on you. Yeah. So you, you just have to figure it out.

Yeah. And again, with the timing, I think when adolescents it's like, Oh my God, this one thing didn't go well and it's going to ruin my whole week. It's very short sighted, but at the same time, you know,(...) that you're going to read to adulthood and you're going to exit this phase versus matresence where it's like you're watching a baby scream and you can't figure out why. And it's the end of your life, but you know, it's going to end. It's going to be fine. You're going to come out of it. My whole body. Like, but you're like, but when does it, but it's like, when does it ever end?

Does it end? Does it just change? I was at a mom, I just asked her how her newborn was the other day.(...) And all she had to say was, and she said it very calmly. Well, she's pretty colicky. And I was like, Oh, so sorry. That's horrible.(...) Yeah.

And it's one of those things where you're not going to like come to tea and be like, my baby is so colicky. Let me unload all of this on you because you literally don't have time. You don't have time. You don't have energy. Like all your energy is going to just holding it together. So you are going to say, Oh, she's really colicky.

Like that's it. You have to. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. There. Have you ever seen those like social media, a little post where it's like when, you know, you're 38 weeks old, you're like, oh, I'm going to get it. Eight weeks pregnant and you could become a mother in two hours or two weeks. I've not seen this. And you just don't know. Like that's the craziest thing, especially with your first one. Like matresence is not like this slow burn where like, you know, you get your first armpit hair and then you're like, Oh, that's a good point too. Like it literally could be two hours or two weeks and you will suddenly be a mother. I mean, I do think you are when you have that like baby in your belly of 38 weeks, but it's not the same. I mean, no, it is not

insane. I'm getting stressed. Okay. Let's go on. Let's go into identity reshaping. That's our fourth.

Have you had her here? Yeah. I mean, I just don't think you give a fish an adolescent so much. Are you serious?

(...)

Everybody's doing it. What do you mean? No, it's like, I don't think I thought about it that much. Like life was hard. I cried, whatever. Like I was dramatic, but it wasn't like how, what can I do to be my best self? Like how is this shaping me? How can I reshape my life to fit this new mold? Like I just wasn't thinking deeply about it.

I wasn't thinking deeply, but I was having a lot of feels like, yeah, because you're entering adulthood. You're supposed to be getting more responsibilities for yourself. You're supposed to be making more choices for yourself. There are less boundaries set for you by your parents at least. And by the time you're in high school, it's kind of all ramping up to, well, in a few years, I'm going to be out of the house.(...) Like detaching or defining my own sense of autonomy was pretty top of mind for me, I would say.

Yeah, I guess. I think though it was so selfish. Maybe that's the difference for me. Like in adolescence, it's completely self-centered and it's supposed to be. And even if I thought it wasn't, it still was. Oh, it was totally self-centered. Like even if I like wanted to change the world and do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's still self-centered.(...) Yep. Versus motherhood, it's how can I shift my identity to stay true to myself? And I mean, top of mind is how can I be the best mom I can be? Yeah, adolescence. This is a big statement, but I guess I have a lot of faith in people. I think every mom kind of feels that. Like I think we have this biological thing that just like wants you to be the best mom. And we don't always have the support of the resources to get there. But I do think that's a universal thought. Maybe that's really wrong, but

I don't know. I would think so. All the moms in my circle, 100%.

(...)

Yeah, it is interesting. We spend time as adolescents fully detaching, working on our self sufficiency, and then matrescence is all about defining that support and foundation for another human. Like being dependent on giving so much of yourself. It's really a beautiful full circle actually. Like I kind of love this parallel because I was telling Kyle this last night as we hung Christmas ornaments. It's such a beautiful picture. Oh, it's great. Christmas to me is so healing every year. And it's not that I'm healing anything broken. So I don't know why healing is the word that's so pressing on me, but it is healing. And going through parenthood is the same for me. Christmas is healing to me because we had a really idyllic childhood where the Christmases were great and I recognize that's not true for everyone. But parenthood I think for me is the same because I'm viewing my relationship with mom and dad so differently. When you're seeing the world through the eyes of this tiny person and their needs, how can that not intrinsically change you at your core?

I would say even before coming a mother, but being an adult, I cared deeply if I got good presents. I really wanted some great presents for people to give you. Oh yeah, I just was so excited. It wasn't like a you better give me a good present. It was like I can't wait to open up my gifts, which I think is partly because I'm not a big like I'm a thrifter. I get anxious about overspending. Like I don't like I don't treat myself frequently. True. So like Christmas, I just know like mom and dad always do a great job. Like Kevin usually goes overboard, you know, like I just know I'm going to get nice things since having kids. I can't wait for them to open up their gifts. I just love it. And that's just like that little change with Christmas where I'm so excited to gift them.(...) And I guess it's fun to get presents, but you just give

more. You're hardwired to give.(...) And I think when so we're talking about identity reshaping right now. I think we do need to also address not the death of your old self. That's so dramatic. But you know, like you kind of wake up after giving birth and you're in a different place than you were a few days ago. And so every day to not lose that woman, like how do you embrace the changing identity? How do you accept it? How do you say, yes, this is me and this other person is also me. Because if you let go of that person and relinquish that person completely and just sole service of your kids, that's not healthy for your kids.

No, but I actually had to let go of some stubbornness of like, well, this is what I used to like to do. You know, this is how I used to have me time. And I had to start to let that go and realize that it's okay if that changed. And then I was more peaceful.

I'm still in that fight. I relinquished a lot of fight, but I'm still in the fight of what, what am I owed? Yeah, me too. By myself. And I'm not even, I'm not even like asking other. It's like, what, what is my human dignity as a mother entitled me to outside of my children and spouse? Do I care? How much of that do I care about and how much of it do I have energy to put into maintaining? I mean, I'm still in the fight mode. I'd love to get into further into the peace mode.

Hmm.

(...)

I just need you to know it is so beautifully snowing. I mean, I'm just like looking at my window, thinking these very deep thoughts. It's just beautiful with your candle, my candle.

(...)

Well, I haven't set up my podcast studio yet. And so I'm just on Kyle's like office downstairs, which is really cluttered. Like I can't work in a cluttered space. I'm sorry. It rips my mind. Like I'm just sitting here. Like I can't acknowledge what's around me right now. I'm just really moving on. So moving last pillar, social and cultural reactions. Yeah, this one I think is a little more depressing.

Tell me, tell me about it. Why? Well, I mostly think about workplace.

(...)

Because when I was going through matrescence, I was working. And as much as people want to be there for you and acknowledge, they have no idea.

This is why I feel so strongly about this word gaining attraction, this concept. I want it taught in schools. I want our five year olds to understand what matrescence is. I want them to understand what patrescence is, which is fatherhood. I think you and I should examine that in our, in with our husbands. I think that's, we haven't talked about that, but that's crucial as well. It's not just a time of transition for women. So I want kids to know this term. I want them to recognize it when they see a mom with a new baby or a dad with a new baby. I want children to know they are going through some shit.(...) But I mean, do you?

Because no, I don't think a five year old needs to hold that burden.

It doesn't need to be a burden. When you're five or six, you know that high schoolers are different than you and adults are different than you. I think it's a really normal thing to say she's a new mom and she's going through matrescence.(...) And it doesn't need to mean a bad thing. You don't even put a burden on a five year old, but you can say this is a huge piece of her life right now. We're going to treat her with more care.

Like, why are you making dinner? Well, she's going through my trestence. Exactly.

It should be a casual word for everyone. And then as it becomes more crucial, you can examine it more deeply.

(...)

Everyone should know about it because also I think something I'm grappling with is there are women in my life who are choosing to never have kids, which is great. And I love that we in 2024 can do that. But it's like this fork in the road. In adolescence, all your peers go through it. Everyone who's an adult has gone through adolescence and matrescence. You choose it. It's a fork in the road. Many women are never going to experience this kind of growth. They will grow in other ways. It's not to say they don't grow, but it is very different and there's no way for them to understand or for you to understand them, frankly. It's really a fork in the road. And I think we're stronger having both types of growth in our community, but it is different.

I do think women have an easier time understanding it and acknowledging it than men, even if they have not gone through it.(...) Like, I just think it's something that is more innate. I mean, obviously for women, but yes, it is something that I want to understand it more myself. I think it's something that's been really interesting for other people, but as someone that's already gone through it, I'd still like to know more.

(...)

Yeah, I think just like right when you say social cultural expectations, I do. I just think about men in the workplace and expecting women to be at work and thinking that you're giving them grace, but really not giving them enough grace.

When you're a little shithead 15 year old and you make a dumb choice or you lash out or you rebel, you are afforded a lot of grace. People are like, "Well, developmentally, this is kind of appropriate." There's no space for women in which matresence is like, "Well, that's developmentally appropriate." And I think that's a phrase that I've ever thought in my head when I see a new mom struggling or asking questions or behaving in a way that doesn't make sense to me. My go-to is not, my go-to is, "Is she okay?" But it's not, "Well, that's developmentally appropriate." It's not my place to judge whether or not she's okay. It's just my job to show up and say, "Oh, this struggle is developmentally appropriate for your position right now. How can I help?"

(...)

Yeah, and I think it is our job with other moms to just say like, "This is going to happen."(...) And it's healthy. I mean, it's hard. It's so hard.(...) But it is healthy and there can be so much growth. So good.

(...)

Yeah. Brings me to the last thing I want to talk about or get your thoughts on is just the postpartum depression. That is something that I think we've done a better job of talking about. And it's crazy to me that it has taken so long for us to normalize it. And I mean, that's a whole other episode. The fact that as far as I can see, and you let me know if you have a different experience, but my experience of motherhood is there's on one hand, the beautiful social media accounts where she's graceful, she's well dressed, she's putting food on the table, she's snuggling her newborn and she's saying, "Enjoy every minute." It is fleeting. It goes so fast. I'm loving this. I'm going to be so sad when it's over. Which is true.

Right?

It's not wrong. No. Yeah. And I have moments of that.

(...)

But there is, I think, this ideal or this social upholding of that mom, that mother. Where it's natural. It's in two. Oh, she's a natural mother. She's a natural nurturer.

(...)

There's that on one hand. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's postpartum depression. Are you sad? Are your hormones so imbalanced that you need medication? Do you have anxiety? Do you have thoughts of self-harm? You get that little chart at your checkup appointments and you have to answer all these questions. Six weeks.

(...)

That's the most, I think it's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It's like,(...) anyways.

So they didn't even read it. Like, I remember going to the pediatrician and like filling it out and I don't think they read it.

No, it's just something you do. And the questions are dumb. Yes. They are not holistic. They are not all encompassing. So anyways, my point is if I'm trying to figure out if I'm okay or if I'm well or what to ask for or how I should see myself, why am I just on a scale between joyful, intuitive, graceful motherhood and you have acute hormonal mental illness.(...) Why am I somewhere in the middle of that? I think insulting, it's insulting to women to say you're either an okay mom and it's kind of hard, but you'll figure it out. Or you actually have this thing called postpartum depression, which is misdiagnosed all the time still.(...) And if you think you have postpartum depression, you know, or a little bit of it, you know, who knows where you are on the scale. If your medical professionals putting you there, if you're putting yourself there, you're most likely to, you're more likely to engage in like depressive tendencies than if someone says to you, adolescence takes roughly, you know, from the ages of 14 to 20. That's a big, long spread. You're doing that in three months. Yeah.(...) I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? I just went on a rampage.

I guess I just.

(...)

I don't know. I don't want to normalize depression, but I do think it's very normal.

(...)

So I'm not trying to say that it's okay or it's the goal, but I just think it's, I think every mom probably goes through at least a little bit of it because it's just such a shock to the system. Like just on a mental, emotional level. Yeah. But then, you know, physically, hormonally, it's a shock to the system. So I just do think it's very normal.(...) I also think that it's really hard to know what your baseline is when you're a doctor that only has seen you since you became pregnant. You know, maybe they did your pap every year. Like sure. Like they have no basis for that. So unless you're already in therapy, like nobody really knows,

(...)

which is really difficult.

(...)

And mental health care is really expensive.

(...)

So a lot of Americans can't afford it or aren't choosing it.(...) So I mean, and I also think like, I remember on that stupid sheet thing,

(...)

the first time around my OB was like, so you're at the point where we can refer you,(...) like, do you want to be referred?

(...)

And I don't even to a mental health, like psychologist, psychiatrist.

(...)

And I don't even think that's an appropriate thing. I think that should be,(...) we're going to refer you.(...) Ah, yeah. Like, like, I'm not, I wasn't in a position to say, yes, please, please refer me.

Sure. And I straight up lied on that sheet and I thought I was telling the truth. Yes.

(...)

I, so that's the piece where I think if there's better language, it will help the conversation be more fruitful for everyone. Because while I was filling up that sheet, I would see a hard question and I would say, Oh God, yeah, it's really hard to wake up every morning or, but I'm so sleep deprived. I'm not sleeping. Right. Or no, I can do my job. I can totally do my job. I am showing up every day and I'm doing X, Y, and Z. I'm putting in over eight hours or whatever and everything's fine. It was a dumb question because I mean, when I saw that question, I was like, Oh my God, how lucky am I? I'm so lucky. There are women who are so much worse off than I am. That was my thought every single time. Oh, this sheet isn't for me. I'm so lucky.

(...)

I can handle this.

(...) And I guess maybe my point is I don't think that it should be as negative,

but that's why I want matrescence in there. It's not a negative adolescence. You have so many feels about it, but it's not like, Oh God, that's awful. It's like, Oh God, that was hard. Some people will still tell you high school were the best days of their lives.(...) I questioned their commitment to personal growth outside of that. But you know,(...) I'm just, adolescence is a mixed bag.(...) Post-plan depression is negative. Matrescence is a mixed bag. Yes.

(...) And there's just adds complexity to the issue. Yep. And adolescence is a necessary thing. Yes.(...) Having matrescence for a lot of women is a necessary path to growth.(...) You can still be a human and a functioning adult, but you're not going to grow in those ways without this. Because who would choose something that hard if you really knew how hard it was going to be?

And you never will until you're in it. Right. But let's normalize it as a phase of womanhood.

(...)

That's beautiful and really hard.

(...)

So the first step is talking about it. The second step is saying I see you to the women who are going through it in your life and giving them additional dignity, grace and respect.

(...) And trying to help. Yeah. I guess I'm just on a mission to help adult men understand it.(...) Yes. And really, there's a fire in my belly about that one.

(...)

Men that will be fathers and father-in-laws and be somebody that's in close proximity to a woman going through that. It's such a fragile, beautiful time.

It is. And it ought to be handled with grace and respect. And respect. Yeah. And I don't want this to sound whiny. I don't think we're whiny. I think language is just so powerful for me personally.(...) The difference between us, like when we were evolving into the species that we are today was that we could imagine things that did not exist. Our imaginations are huge. Perspective is huge. So I think having this deeper understanding, I think will make motherhood or the choice to become a mother if that's what you want easier. And I think it's something that hopefully by the time our kids are old enough to vote, they will see matresins in legislation. I would love for that to be our reality.

(...)

Don't talk to me about getting paid on disability leave. Yeah, when you have a baby. Yes. Which is what the wording is when you have a baby right now. Don't tell me I'm disabled. I've just done a harder thing than all of the men in politics.

I had like a weekend at a spa on you.(...) Right.

(...)

And some paid leave. Right.(...) And I'd like you to realize when I get back that I'm actually going to be better at my job. Yeah. Because I just went through this whole growth.

Anyways, it's not a disability. It is matresins.

(...)

Yeah, I think I'm all burned out. I'm feeling real feisty, but thanks for going on that journey with me.

(...)

So fun. Okay, so listeners, please just text us. Whatever you're thinking, if you'd like us to respond to you, please shoot us a little DM on Instagram or Facebook or an email. We love emails. Please weigh in. I think this calls for patrescents. I think we need to. Yes.

If we're going to ask. We need to have our husbands on the pod anyway. I know. It's about time.(...) I know.(...) Love you. Love you. Bye.

(...)

You've been listening to The Real Mom Hub. Our music is by Naomi O'Leary. You can find us on social at The Real Mom Hub. We're not the authority or even very educated on the medical issues discussed. Do your own research. Talk to an expert. Make your own decisions and call us if you learn anything new.

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