Resilience Matters
A podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of trauma and the pathways to resilience. Each episode offers expert insights, personal stories, and practical strategies to help listeners foster healing and growth.
Resilience Matters
Resilience & Resistance: Sustaining DEIB Efforts
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In this powerful episode of Resilience Matters, we dive deep into the evolving landscape of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) and the growing pushback against these efforts. Across the country, DEIB programs are being dismantled at the governmental level and threatened at the corporate level. Policies that once aimed to create equitable opportunities and address systemic inequalities are now being labeled as “divisive” and “harmful.” But who really benefits from this rollback? And what does it mean for marginalized communities?
Our guests Kenneth Ponds, Erin Madden Reed, and Candy Guyton-Pendergraft, all members of Starr's Glasswing team, explore the complexities of DEIB initiatives and the cultural and political resistance they face. We examine the performative nature of some corporate DEIB programs, the broader societal implications of these policy shifts, and the importance of sustaining hope and transformation in the face of systemic challenges. This episode is a call to action—not just for policy change, but for critical thinking, community engagement, and personal transformation in the fight for equity and the Oneness of Humankind.
Greetings. I'm Ken Pons or Kenneth Pons. I serve as the Vice President of Oneness and special advisor to the president of Star Commonwealth. We're kind of challenged with the idea of creating a uh seven-word story of ourselves. And so this is my story. I am a son, brother, husband, father. That's my story. And I'm sticking to it.
SPEAKER_02:I'm Candy Guy and Pendergraph, and my seven-word story is Divine Light, Alchemizing Pain for the Collective.
SPEAKER_01:My name is Erin Madden Reed. My story is devotee of truth, love, liberation, and compassion, writer, and yogi. And so here we are. And we are gathered here today to um, we want to have a chat in response to some of the things that are happening on the federal level and some of these mandates that are coming out of the current administration in the in the White House. And I'm just gonna share a little brief excerpt from a fact sheet from the current president of the United States entitled Protecting Civil Rights and Merit-Based Opportunity by Ending a Legal DEI. And all three of us serve as members of the Glasswing team and the facilitation team for racial healing and oneness, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So this is something that's a big part of our collective work and our individual work. So this hits all of us right in our hearts. And so this is a little bit of the preamble to this document, which was released by the White House on January 22nd, 2025. Today, President Donald J. Trump signed a historic executive order that protects the civil rights of all Americans and expands individual opportunity by terminating radical DEI preferencing in federal contracting and directing federal agencies to relentlessly combat private sector discrimination. It enforces long-standing federal statutes and faithfully advances the Constitution's promise of colorblind equality before the law. This comprehensive order is the most important federal civil rights measure in decades. It terminates diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI, discrimination in the federal workforce and federal contracting and spending, federal hiring, promotions, performance reviews will reward individual initiative skills, performance, and hard work, and not under any circumstances DEI-related factors, goals, policies, mandates, or requirements. And it goes on. And we will link this document in the show notes so that you can read the whole thing yourself. I just wanted to kind of give a little context to what it is that we're discussing and responding to today, amongst a lot of other things that are going on really quickly. When we hear that, what comes up? What feels important to respond to?
SPEAKER_00:One of the things that really strikes me is that the assumption is being made is that our society has always been one of equity, equality, fairness, lack of discrimination, uh which in reality is not. If this was true, that it was a society that really was fully one of equity and equality. If that was true, then we would not be also attacking the historical perspective that underscores the very things that this uh that the president's proclamation is claiming that we are a fair and equitable society. Uh in reality, we really are not. And history bears that out. So the challenge is not so much, in my opinion, to eliminate those opportunities or vehicles that we have to work towards uh uh an equitable and fair society. The challenge is uh not to eliminate those, but how can we enhance them even more? Uh how can we support them even more? How can we uh first of all be honest with ourselves and say that we are not a society that is fair and equitable, but we are a society that has wrestled with many, many things, one of which is being a fair and equitable society. And we have worked our way towards towards that. So why are we choosing to stop that progress uh at this point in time? And I would argue there's other things behind tackling uh or challenging DEI than what is presented even in the president's statement.
SPEAKER_02:Just really building off of everything you just said, Ken, because it does read as a response and a reaction to something rather than just something that has been put out. And it feels like the reaction to the request for critical race theory to talk about, you know, our history, to be honest about it, to have people be held accountable, to be real about um the systemic effects of you know these like kind of long-held truths that we don't want to, I don't want to say we, but you know, that a lot of our country doesn't want to face and acknowledge because it is uncomfortable and there's a lot of fear. So would this have come out? Would he have even written this had, you know, people who are in a privileged position were not feeling, I don't know if threatened is the right word, but like threatened to have to reckon with that privilege, where it comes from and who is hurt by it. Like if they didn't have to be uncomfortable to acknowledge those truths, would this have even come out? I don't know. It just feels like a reaction to that privilege being, you know, kind of push back into.
SPEAKER_01:And I feel so much like I've like I grew up, you know, being taught by my teachers like, don't see color. Like, and you know, I'm a white woman, a cisgender white woman, I'll identify that now. And I don't speak for all cisgender white women. And growing up, though, that was definitely the ideology of like be colorblind, don't see color. We're all equal. But as I grew up and saw how that played out in my interpersonal relationships, that was causing great harm, which meant I don't see, like, don't see the structural impact, like structural racism and structural inequities. Don't look at those. Just look at, and then it's it's like more like don't look at how those are impacting people who have different skin colors, people of color, black people. It was more like, let's be blind to the structure, is how I've come to understand colorblindness, right? And blind to how those structures are impacting my brothers and sisters of color. Like that's really what that meant. And also what it gave me was this oh, I don't have to feel uncomfortable because I don't have to talk about what whiteness means and what those privileges are. And so I I agree wholeheartedly, Candy. I think like this is in response to calling people towards their growth, right? Like it's uncomfortable to grow. It's uncomfortable to unlearn things that you've been taught. That's uncomfortable. And, you know, it is it is it is a response to like what was DEI always asking us to do, to reckon with and lovingly be accountable to each other, you know? And there's a lot of power in that when we can come together and do that. And I think, you know, that's really threatening to administrations like the current one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of the assumptions it's always made is that our Constitution created a colorblind society. Well, our constitution has never done that. We have never been a colorblind society. We have placed a lot of there's a lot of value uh and weight given to what color you happen to be. It's not only in the greater society itself, but it's throughout all of our communities, even within the black community, there's there's some weight placed on uh colorism. So for our for the uh executive order to to refer back to a colorblind uh constitution, a colorblind society, that is never a reality we've ever uh experienced in this country. The first major immigration act of our of our nation was very clear that if you were not a white person, what was someone deemed as a white person, particularly as a white male, you were not really welcomed to immigrate into the country. So very from the very beginning of the founding of the nation, uh the idea of color was inserted. When you go back to uh historical uh incidences like Bacon's Rebellion uh that happened in the in the uh sixteen hundreds, where groups of people, primarily groups of indentured servants, enslaved people, Native Americans, uh all joined together and really rebelled against the government at that point in time. Out of that rebellion, uh it was very, very clear that in order to deal with people and keep people separated, uh, the whole idea of color was inserted into our into our national thinking where people who were deemed white were given their freedom coming out of the rebellion, and people who were deemed as black were enslaved for life. Uh and so right away at at the at the very foundings of our nation, if you will, uh the idea of of uh this being a society that recognized, acknowledged color uh was there from the very beginning. So for the executive order to refer to us as a colorblind society, uh colorblind constitution is disingenuous at its c at its core. And then I think in some ways it was proven with the unfortunate accident that happened uh where uh the two planes collided over the Potomac and our and our president came out and said, Well, uh DEI was at fault. And what he was basically saying is I want you to take a close look at this because uh people of color and and within I would I would be venture to say within the black community at least, uh we did not miss the message of what he was saying. That that black folks were at the at the uh core of of the failure of of uh what happened when the two planes uh crashed. So once again, for him to uh make the statement that he made uh in the executive order is disingenuous.
SPEAKER_02:I've always said too that it's not necessarily a lot of people had a lot of fear um with this year, with you know, our election and what's going on in politics. And initially I said that it wasn't so much from last time the things that were written into law, it was how culture was impacted, that that was the most significant part that I felt, anyways, um, that was difficult to live through. And saying things like that on television for people to hear has such a direct impact because now I'm running around trying to understand what people think when he says DEI is responsible. Like what does that even mean? Um, because the first thing that I felt was, you know, will my work because we all work on Glasswing together, which is always we've always called it racial healing, but it falls under the realm of DEI B or DEI B work, DEI work, diversity, equity, and inclusion. So when we're hearing that it's said in a way that this is like something bad, it's something illegal, it's something that you know is hurting people. I feel all these like defensive, like you know, things come up for me and wanting to explain and understand. But every time that I hear it mentioned through this new administration, it is always used in a way um that is kind of referencing like affirmative action as something that is a threat. Um, it's not actually referencing, definitely not what we do in Glasswing or any of our, you know, workshops and how we work with people. Um, but every it's always mentioned and it's always mentioned in a way that is not defining it and telling people what it means, but rather just making it into like an all-encompassing label for you know practices that are stealing privileges from the majority. Like that is what I'm constantly hearing it framed as. Um, and I really wish that somebody with a bigger platform, with a bigger voice within this administration or somebody up there would really define it. Like, what do you mean when you say DEI is responsible for, you know, this travesty that just happened? Like, tell me exactly what you mean by that, because otherwise it's just up to the people who are willing to be critical thinkers and to look things up and know how to look things up and find that type of information because not all of us have that privilege of being taught how to navigate the internet and dig through news articles and find factual information. Um, and a lot of what we're seeing too that's built into what you had read, Erin, is kind of like that book burning. Like, we don't want you to find the real information, the real history. So much is being suppressed, and there's so much to that. There's reasons behind it. It's very intentional, in my perspective.
SPEAKER_00:I think a good place to even begin is to ask the question define DEI. Define what it means to be woke. Unfortunately, our leadership or people in power just throw that out. Like DEI and and wokeness, and nobody ever asks them to define it. What do you mean when you say DEI? What do you mean when you say woke? What do you mean when you talk about critical race theory? Define that.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:What do you mean by a colorblind society? Yeah, what do you mean by by uh equity and equality? Ask the people to define those terms, you know, and we don't ever ask them. We let 'em just throw people throw that out there and shape it. Not define it, but shape what they want people to hear and understand and set up people really saying, What do you mean by that? You know, what are you saying by it? Uh what do you what's the purpose of why you stated it the way you did? Uh I think only one uh journalist asked the president when he made that statement about DEI, what does he mean by it? And how do you how do you determine that? And the president said, Well, common sense. My understanding of common sense was that I did not hear any common sense in that presentation that was made, because nobody really challenged uh just the concepts that would be thrown out there and and asked for better clarity. I think it would be would have been good for the people in the present present in the room, and it certainly would have been good in terms of clarity for the overall population. What are you really talking about when you when you say what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01:That is such an important question that to direct at people who are throwing those specifically those kinds of terms around DEI and colorblind racism or just colorblindness. It was interesting even in the executive order to use the word civil rights for all. You know, it's it's this, it's it's it's like not defining it on purpose because then it can be demonized and turned into something that it's never been. It's never been that. And, you know, ask, you know, we've all had the opportunity to facilitate a lot of experiences with people where we are directly looking at the systems and looking at how they impact us as individuals, how they impact us as collective. And it's really this ability to say, like, whoa, is this our system? Like, look at our system. How is that impacting you? How is that impacting you as a human being? And what and the and it is that huge block of fear that comes into place that we always get blocked at when we're trying to change. And what we talk about in Glasswing was we talk about transformation. Like, what how can we transform as a culture to realize oneness? And that's why it comes all the way back to that moment of Bacon's rebellion. When people come together, they become really powerful, you know, and they come together in their spirits, they come together in curiosity, they come together in compassion, they come together in dialogue, and that's really what DEI spaces are offering people is spaces to talk about what's happening around us and how are we being impacted by it. And then, you know, dreaming our way forward. That's really powerful. But if like what we're seeing right now is a lot of like fear-based stuff, scared people don't dream about the future. Scared people don't evolve and change. And especially, you know, like this is for especially particularly for white folks, it's saying, like, hey, go ahead and go back to your comfort zone and stay the same. So it's it's also, you know, to me, taking something that used to be quite like white supremacy, you know, we use that term. This culture is based on white supremacy and has been built that way, as well as colonialism and capitalism and patriarchy, all of these, these structures that are in place to marginalize people. We we use these terms and we explore these terms and we look at how they impact us. And it's like that that's really scary when you support people to think critically in that way and then make choices that return them to their souls and their power and their interconnectedness. Like I it is it is on purpose very vague that they don't that they just demonize and dehumanize um this is all being radical left ideology. You know, that's all really purposeful. And it's really important that we take, I mean, it's so powerful when we come together to dialogue about it. And that's that's terrifying to the powers that be.
SPEAKER_02:We're seeing that with Target and Walmart and um all these like large corporations that are like all those places. Yeah, but all of them, too. I think as critical thinkers and as you know, people who really want to look at it, their DEI initiatives were also born out of a reaction to, you know, please the powers that be, you know, and so yeah, like let's be super clear about what DEI is, because what some of these large corporations have implemented and made their definition of DEI still doesn't really encompass what you know it truly embodies, at least not within our work and you know, within our communities. So if it's diversity, which just means that we're all showing up, that everyone is invited, everybody is there, um, nobody is being excluded, equity, meaning that everybody is being considered and is having the same opportunities that within those spaces that they're you know, they're different cultures, their different um abilities, everything is being considered. Um, and then the inclusivity that, you know, we're all we all belong. We all feel like we belong in that space. We're all included. It's not just that we showed up, it's not just that they threw, you know, um decorations up that showed our heritage or something or made a little celebration. It's that I am wanted in this space, that I am included and appreciated in this space. I'm seen here just as much as everybody else. Um, and so what we did see, I remember back with Walmart after. You know, everything that went down in 2020 with George Floyd. Um, and you know, our country started talking about Juneteenth. Well, part of their DEI initiative was to unveil a Juneteenth ice cream that was and it was like, this is so like tone-deaf. Like, what it how how is this helpful? Right? Like, did that help everybody? You know, like how how was that helping? What was the purpose of those kinds of DEI initiatives?
SPEAKER_01:Did the ice cream flavor like really help you reflect? Did it really help you reflect on your accountability and your relationships and how you show up? Like when you ate that ice cream, did you feel a sense of transformation? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And then a lot of those jobs that were born out of DEI were still being held by white men, the majority of them. And so, you know, all these different places, like they brought on DEI directors, and um that was kind of what because I was excited. I'm like, I work in DEI. Let me start looking at some of these jobs. And it was, it felt very performative. It was like, here, let's have somebody come in and like host the Cinco de Mayo um celebration at our office, you know, and I don't think that, you know, having tacos at your office equates to equity in your office.
SPEAKER_00:DEI requires work. You know, a a fair and balanced society requires work. Uh democracy requires work. And part of if I was going to look at this more critical than I already look at it right now is what's going on, is that people don't want to do the work. And so Amen. And one of the ways of addressing it was through uh and still is through uh diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. But that requires work. You can't just put a program in and say, hey, you go make this thing, you make us more equitable, uh, and we'll go ahead and do our thing, and then uh uh but the burden is on you. No, the burden is on everyone. You know, if you wanna, if you wanna, if we want a democracy that works for everybody, the burden is on everyone. And I think people have forgotten that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I just want to underscore that with you, Ken, because like all of our ancestors in civil rights, because civil rights is mentioned by name in this executive order. Mart Dr. Martin Luther King, John Lewis, that coming off the top of my head, and many more that currently live today, um people who are fighting for real civil rights, they always are reminding us like this is democracy, has always been work. Democracy, any amount of of civil rights that we have have been fought for and people have died for. You know, it's just like to keep that in the in the lens. And this for me in my 40s, like this is like my first time in my lifetime where it's like, oh, this is something that we are gonna have to really work for, you know, um uh more than ever. So just to underscore how much I feel that with you.
SPEAKER_00:That's always been the case, and I think any uh democracy, any fair and equitable society has always required a lot of work on the part of uh the majority of the people. And to kind of like diminish that, which I think the executive order does, it really I think it diminishes the the amount of work required to have a fair and equitable society by just saying, well, if we get the get rid of this and do this and do that, then we'll have a fair and equitable society. If we re-establish merit, that's a whole nother discussion in and of itself. Then we'll have a fair and equitable society. Well, in reality, we don't. Because once again, uh the people in power, the people who determine, uh who have always determined rights and privileges in this country, are also the ones who determine the value of merit. And so for us to say we're gonna re-establish a merit-based society, to me it's just screaming racism with a capital R all over again.
SPEAKER_02:And then it makes you ask like who benefits from this anime, and when we look at it as all of these are just reactions to uphold the foundation that has always been, right? Nothing that because we just kind of like broke down like the whole DEI response, didn't really benefit. I mean, in some ways that it did, but in the overall, the way that these larger corporations had like implemented DEI, it didn't have the impact that it probably should have with the amount of money that it was put in. It's like who really benefited it from all of it and then taking it away. And I think that that cultural impact um is the biggest part because again, no one is really understanding and like looking at you know, how is this yeah, how is this like playing out other than this is bad? This was always bad. The concept of DEI, all these initiatives were always wasteful, they were always um, you know, going against the greater good. Yeah, so it's always back to that framing piece. But if that's true, then who benefits from us thinking that? Who benefits from society thinking that DEI and DEI initiatives are harmful?
SPEAKER_00:Well, the well, the reality of for me for DEI as well as for things like affirmative action is that they are made to seem as if they are terrible concepts and ideas and give people who have been marginalized their entire lives an advantage over the larger community. Well, in reality, affirmative action uh and DEI have have really percentage-wise have not really benefited marginalized communities. The people who have benefited from uh affirmative action and from DEI have been the larger white community, and and that's so if you want to get rid of DEI, not that I would support it, but I would say, hey, knock yourself out, and what you're gonna find is that you're not hurting uh the marginalized communities as much as you think you are. You're really hurting the large the white community ultimately because the white community, as with affirmative action, uh has benefited the most from DEI.
SPEAKER_02:And when you say that, Kenneth, you're saying those DEI initiatives in corporate places.
SPEAKER_01:Ken, you have this like long career of working for racial equity, healing, social justice with before we had acronyms like DEI. Can you kind of take us back to some of those experiences and how through you know your lived experiences, like you, you know, what was it like back then? Like we what have been these cycles that you've seen happen with this work? Because obviously with or without an acronym, it's happening.
SPEAKER_00:Well, when I first started at STAR, there was like uh there was five or six other black uh folks working at SAR and and also working in in excellent positions, actually, positions of authority. So you have to credit STAR's leadership uh with realizing that there are people who are gifted and talented that could really impact the lives of young people and their families in a positive way. And one of the things I would argue that DEI does is that uh DEI exposes people to uh to others that have gifts and talents that can be utilized by the by an organization and by a community, by so uh in a sense while those terms were not used at STAR, uh they they were uh ultimately in the minds of the leadership at STAR at that time, of really working, commit making the commitment to begin to diversify staff, uh and the st and the student population, uh, which at that time when I began working at Star, I believe all the young people on campus in the residential program were were white. And then we had, including myself, probably about five black staff, six black staff. So if you look at it back then, as you look at it during uh Star's residential heydays later on in the in the uh 70s and eighties, where many of the set probably uh staff worked uh star worked very hard to fully um diversify its staff and fully diversify the student population and the clients that we served. Um so in that sense, uh I would I would argue Star has once it made that commitment, uh did not back away from that commitment and saw itself become more and more diversified in in every aspect. But it it's it's something that you have to be committed to, it's not something you can do for a while and say, okay, uh let's go do something else. You can't do that. She had to be committed to it for the long term. And I believe STAR is. I think the ultimate uh goal for STARS diversity program is to achieve the uh beloved community, and that's what Dr. Uh King talked about. That's the ultimate goal of all of this effort is to achieve the uh beloved community uh where people are welcomed, people are invited, everyone has a seat at the table. Uh we all are are there uh because each and every one of us are gifted and talented, and our gifts and talents make uh make for a better community.
SPEAKER_02:I think this is a good thing to bring up because we're talking more so about the DEI of like larger corporations or DEI programs like within like public universities and school systems, um, because that seems like the greater threat that you know is being given attention through that executive order, but like what does DEI be? Because we use diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. What does that look like within STAR? Like, how does our DEI program, our DEI B team, look compared to what we're hearing about, compared to how it is being framed by administration?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think one of the things that really sets this work apart for us is that we all like we come at it from this healing perspective. And Candy, I know you're always reminding us, especially me who can get really fiery, like, you know, let's be healers and warriors in this work. And it's sustainable. And I think the long-term commitment. So like I got to come in and be trained by Ken and Christy Barrett and you know, be mentored by them to hold and facilitate these spaces, where ultimately, like, our guidepost is healing. Our guidepost is like alchemizing this trauma that's been um put, you know, put upon us by these structures of inequity and harm, and being able to come together and recognize our oneness, our shared oneness, that like we are gonna get free together, that inherently my liberation is intrinsic to my brothers and sisters, and be able to like get into dialogues and um using the five shifts for transformation, like moving from the material to the spiritual, moving from you know, the cognitive to the compassionate and and moving into curiosity from needing to be certain and getting to go into these dialogues that really like expand my heart and reconnect me with my soul, which is ultimately like what we're doing is like to me, it's soul work, it's the attempt to heal the tear and the fabric of humanity. It's it is it is certainly not shame-based for you know anyone. If if someone comes into the space and feels shame, that belongs in the compassionate container for the space. We work with that, but it's not like certainly saying anybody is better than anybody else or any, you know. Um, and there is like the love of accountability and starting to understand loving accountability that if I love myself and I love other people, then I need to be able to like tend to impacts that I'm having. And it's really reflective work. It's really, yeah. It's not, it's never like beating anyone overhead. It's like causing, I mean, we definitely are rooted in this deep intention of not causing harm, further harm.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think it's all about how how do you see people? I mean, that's one of the shifts. How do you how do you see people? How do you get curious about people? Not certain, but become curious. I think one of the things that our society sometimes drifts away from is that we lack curiosity. How do you become curious? In some ways, you want people to kind of be a little curious about you, otherwise, people kind of lock you in to a certain way, and this is how he or she is based on their gender or how they look and that kind of stuff. In reality, we are all uh complex individuals, and it's hard to see some of that complexity if you stereotype people into certain roles and and how you view them. But how do you become curious about uh folks? How do you uh approach them from a heart perspective that get it at the heart and and and out of your head? That's one thing I've always appreciated about Star is that it has always emphasized a heart overhead in terms of how you interact with people.
SPEAKER_02:I love how you both like brought up how this like work plays out because I feel like both of you said that it's just this ongoing thing. It's like it doesn't arrive. And even Kenneth, when you were saying like that this was a commitment that you saw when you started working at Star, you know, 50 years ago, that it is a commitment that has been ongoing. It's not like y'all like reached this part where you began to diversify and it was like, all right, we did good and like now we're all done. Because here in 2025, we still have a DEIB team at Star because there's always more work to be done. We always have to continue to get more curious. And what I, from my understanding, because I don't work directly on that team, um, but I am a pusher against her, you know, and I am always ex looking, I'm always curious about how can I love somebody better, how can I show up better. Um, but I'm a pusher against her to say, well, how can I feel, you know, like I really belong here? And how might you show up and love me or see me better? Um, and I'm grateful that we do have that team that allows for anything that might come up ongoing to be addressed and seen, not just from the perspective of one person within power, but from a team of people who are all committed to, you know, creating our culture of oneness. And that is an ongoing thing that's never going to stop. We're never going to arrive. And a lot of what we see in the greater society of when we look at DEI is I'm gonna unveil this new Juneteenth ice cream and it is our answer, and now we are no longer racist, and everything is good, and there's never gonna be an answer. There's never going to be a solution, which is why we believe in that shift of we we don't go to solutions, we go to transformation. Like this is always going to be ongoing. And having things come up that need to be addressed, having you know, mistakes made, or you know, skipping over our words and just not, you know, responding in this like perfect way, um, which is a big fear because in this like idea of like we live within a cancel culture, like we have to be so perfect, we have to know how to like address everybody and what terms to use, like mistakes will be made. But when we have a team that is committed to embracing everybody and creating that culture of oneness, it allows us to continue on in that transformation that keeps everybody, um, that includes everybody. Everybody gets to be part of that transformation received and understood. So it's very different than what we're being taught.
SPEAKER_01:DEI is so you just bring up like the core of the matter and why it's hard. Why is it hard? What like why is it like why why would it be easier to be like, cool, DEI is illegal, let's never do it again, or cool, we're all done, which is not like it's just not how it works. Like, and this has been going on, you know, since the since this country has struggled to, like Ken was saying, it's oh it's never been equitable. And as we've struggled to fight for democracy, um, like that it's ongoing. It's and it's like moving at that slow pace. So maybe we could all just take a minute and share, like now, as we see this kind of um executive order and this kind of rhetoric coming out of the voices in some really powerful people, what is our individual commitment to this work of realizing one oneness?
SPEAKER_00:You have to maintain hope. Once again, hope is not something that, oh, I'm walking around, I'm hopeful. No, you have to do some work with hope also. You know, you gotta you gotta take action. Uh and and I think part of what seems to be happening is that people are inundated with so much stuff that that it it paralyzes you initially. You could almost argue that's kind of a normal human reaction. It's that sometimes when you get overwhelmed with so much stuff, it's kind of like, what do I do? You have to be hopeful, you have to believe that as difficult as it may be, as as we sing in the black national anthem, Stony the Road Roads We Troad, well, the the roads are gonna be difficult and they're gonna be full of a lot of stuff. But that doesn't mean you don't keep uh moving towards uh the I that doesn't mean you don't stop moving towards a better a better place. Uh it doesn't mean that you uh give in to uh despair. It doesn't it doesn't help, you know, uh it doesn't help at all. I I lately I've been reading some of the the prophet Isaiah and there's uh in Isaiah 6 is to me is one of the more powerful uh descriptions of when the when the prophet gets receives his call to be a prophet, and it's just overwhelmingly phenomenal. It's a beautiful picture. But most of us and and and and as a pastor, I probably have uh preached on uh on uh Isaiah six, the first few chapters, uh first few verses. We very seldom ever preach on the last verses of that of chapter six, which which is where God tells Isaiah, you know what, you're gonna kinda have to you're gonna work yourself hard. And a lot of people aren't gonna be listening, nobody's gonna be paying attention. Uh don't don't give up. You have to you have to persevere, you have to keep pushing. Even though it seems like there there is nothing going to happen. There there is a uh a shoot that comes out of a stump that that signifies that there is there is life, there is hope. And that's that's the way you have to approach it, you know. So if if uh vehicles like DEI are are taken away from us and replaced with uh other vehicles that supposedly are gonna work, well, okay, that's let's uh see if let's see if merit really does work this time around. Yeah. Now does it really uh lead us to where we want to be? Uh but in the meantime, don't Give up. Don't don't don't let hope go away. You know, don't lose your hope.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for orienting us back to hope, Ken, because that is just so important.
SPEAKER_02:I love everything that you said, Kenneth, because I think the hope is a really big one that we all feel dwindling right now. It can feel very draining and disorienting when everything seems to kind of be against that. And I think that my commitment comes more definitely from the hope. But what's behind the hope is just the belief in oneness and that that cannot be shaken. Right. Like even in the face of darkness, even eye to eye with you know oppression and the oppressor. I have to be able to look in that person's eyes and believe that we are the same. And that is really, really hard for a lot of people. And I think the other part that is included in that is for one, just the belief in oneness that is absolutely unshakable, that it is a faith that we are all part of the human family, that we are all the same at our core, no matter how it's being expressed. Like that cannot change for me no matter what, which is constantly, constantly, constantly being battled. The other part is my critical thinking. I am so committed to being a critical thinker and not listening to what any mass amount of people or any, you know, group is telling me. I'm always going to look into it for myself. I'm going to question the media that I'm reading. I'm going to question the voices of people that even I respect. And I'm going to look into it for myself. And I'm going to come back to my truth and my values and question how does that feel to me? Um because you I can listen and I can listen to the best of our leaders who are fighting social injustice. And but even they might say some things where I'm just like my truth in oneness doesn't line up with that. And that is my commitment. There's always work to be done. I'm always going to be questioning everything. But that I think within this, we're going to constantly be told that there's bad guys. And you know, there's not, people don't always have great intentions. But in that oneness, we have to remember that we are all in the same human family and that everybody has some sort of pain. Right. And just like, how do we all come back together? Not how do we separate ourselves into good and bad, and how do we, you know, just think from this concept of survival and protecting ourselves, but the greater image of what do I want in the end? What reality am I trying to bring in? It's the one where all of us get to go. It's the one where all of us get to go, even the ones who yeah, are you know are inflicting the pain right now. I want them to be there too, and I want them to not be in a place where they don't get to experience my love because they're missing out too at the end of the day, right?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:My sister-in-law just sent me a postcard that said, like, to love beyond division is to love like an outlaw. And I just love that. Like, just to, just to like, I just hear that so much and and your commitment, Candy, like your commitment to loving bigger than any of this like fear that's being pushed out right now so intensely. Um I feel, I feel incredibly committed to this work more than ever. I have like a promise that I made to myself as a little girl. You know, I remember learning about Ruby Bridges and about um schools getting integrated in my American history. That's American history. We live in a country that had to fight, you know, that's was built on slavery and dehumanizing black people and then having to fight the having to fight for civil rights. And and I I've always looked to Martin Luther King as um a hero and a teacher and a prophet in many ways. And um I just remember learning about that as a little girl and being like, if I if that was happening now, I want to, I would want to be a part of that. I would want to, I would want to to be a voice, to be an ally, to be support, to to just amplify that truth. So like as a young kid, I've I knew that. And I think this just, you know, this is a time of backlash against progress, towards realizing oneness. And as an infinite being, you know, I I just am like, all right, I'm in this time cycle and it's time for me to work. It's time for me to work like I've never worked, to find parts of myself I've never found. I'm really committed to um putting my energy towards movements and communities that are in that realization of oneness, in that real, like who are who are envisioning that future together. And like you, Candy, Ken, Christy, who's not with us, you know, you guys are a big part of that for me, where I can find hope is when I get to talk to you, um, when I get to be in dialogue with you, and I get to, I get to hear, you know, like just our we share our hearts together. So to me, this commitment to continue to continue the actual work. And one of, you know, Ken, one of the quotes that has always stuck with me that you shared an African proverb and it was like, when you pray, move your feet. And to me, you know, like this is a real it's it's like a spiritual revolution to me. So, and I and a lot of in all revolutions, and this is another great quote, but from Venobah Bhave, um, who is an Indian um revolutionary in his own way and and was supportive of realizing oneness um in his work, is all revolutions are spiritual at the core. And um, my work is to realize a oneness of hearts. So I want to be a part of that. I've known that since I was a kid, and the commitment, it just feels more important than ever. My work has not changed. Um, it just has gotten more galvanized to realize and create spaces for that expansion of hearts and consciousness.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you say too, that you know, part of your commitment, like how it shows up in action is within community, because none of us can do this on our own. And we can't do this work just with people who look like us or the same as us. We actually get to put it into practice within community and being in action, being a living experience of that diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And I agree, I love you know, our team, our glasswing team, and being here and having to have these difficult conversations and look at things in a way that's broad and holding each other accountable in love is you know, is life-changing for me too. It's very special. And I appreciate both you and Christy so much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Shout out. So, knowing that this is like a long-term commitment, maybe where we could wrap up this conversation is like, how in the world are we going to sustain ourselves in this work, knowing this is a lifelong journey? What what are what are the practices that we do to take care of ourselves and each other when we're constantly being dehumanized and threatened and feeling unsafe?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you have to be honest with yourself. Where are you in all of this? For me, I find myself getting back more to the spiritual. Um not as a as an escape. I think sometimes people kind of ignore the the aspect of spirituality that that really almost demands that you stay in the world. You're not escaping. You know, but how do you how do you uh uh embrace your spirituality in such a way that it's reflected in how you live your life so it impacts other people in positive ways. So for me, uh you know, I have turned more to the spiritual. I also know that you have to you have to take the long perspective, you know. A lot of what's going on today is not something that just happened overnight. This has been in the progress for uh many people would argue ever since 1954 with the Brown versus the Board of Education decision. And a lot of things that we are dealing with now began to germinate and to expand over time to to what we have today. And so the same thing, you know, you have to understand historically, this is a cycle that our country has always gone through because democ democracy is hard and it's hard work. And so we go through these periods where people make a lot of progress, our society makes progress, and then people, for lack of a better way of looking at it, people who are in power feel threatened and then they make efforts to to roll back the progress that's being made until people once again say no. We want to continue to go forward, and then and then people take the steps to do that. My prayer is that it doesn't take 50 years for that to happen. My prayer is that it only takes a few more months, and then people are ready to say no. We're not we're not gonna accept this. Uh we're not gonna spend the next 20 or 30 years getting ourselves to the point where we're ready to push back. Um my hope is that it's it it happens soon. One of my favorite uh spirituals is is heaven. I remember as a camp counselor that you know people would sing it was uh I was the one I was the only uh person of color as a camp counselor in this particular camp I worked at for a couple of seasons. And uh they would sing uh spirituals as part of the camp songs that we would sing and and and uh until one day I just said that's that that's enough. These songs are as powerful as the hymns that we sing in your churches, you know. So but there's there's one spiritual I've always loved, and that's uh heaven, you know. I got shoes, you got shoes, all God's you know, children has shoes. When I get to heaven, I'm gonna put on my shoes, I'm gonna walk all over God's heaven. That's a phenomenal, powerful statement that's being made by people who were enslaved, who were who were constantly reminded every day that they are less than. All right, the same message we get today in our communities that are marginalized, that we are less than. Uh, in reality, we know better. We fight against that. That's part of that hope. But also part of that song is a very powerful part, too, when the people singing that song could turn their eyes to the White House and say, everybody talking about heaven ain't going there. All right? So those who think that that they are the ones selected and chosen, well, got some got some news for you. And that's that's part of that hope you have also is that you know that everybody talking about heaven, everybody that has all this power, everybody that's doing all this stuff, are not are not gonna end up where they think they're gonna end up, are not who all that they think they are. Um that the real the real people are the ones who who are putting their shoes on and walking all over God's heaven and rejoicing. Uh and that God has established them as uh fully human and created in God's image. So can I just sermonize again, so please forgive me? No, I got good swinging. Forgive me for doing that.
SPEAKER_01:So when you said the words like Al God's children have shoes, and I just like I could feel my arms just like just like tingling from my heart down my arms, just like the power of collective lifting up their voices and putting faith in the big long cycles of this of this human journey. And yeah, it's beautiful. Thank you for that, Ken.
SPEAKER_02:I'm always down for always want to hear the sermon.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was yes, exactly. Because it is, I mean, I would say too that you know, how am I taking care of myself? How can it be sustainable? Well, there are some like really practical things, you know, coming from that really spiritual place. Um like I'll get there too, but I think also too, just some things I've been doing lately is like really looking at like my attention is a gift. My attention and awareness where I'm placing it is a gift. So if I'm I don't want to be directing my attention and awareness to the divisiveness, I don't want my energy to get to get spiraled down into that. Um, I'm gonna look, like I'm gonna read some of this stuff and I'm gonna take it in in a way that my nervous system can digest in a way where I'm not doing it from a reactionary place. So that means, yeah, like migrating from the metaverse, moving on, like getting my news from places that uh new places and reading it and digesting it in new ways. It's been incredibly helpful to me to feel like the sustainability because the way that social media has worked for me and I think it's designed for many of us is to be like really jarring to the nervous system and really, and that's why, you know, the you know, CEO of Meta is right there with the the current administration because they know that they have a lot of power and where we're placing our attention. So I'm really discerning right now about where my attention is going and where my energy is. And again, I want to say, like, just like Ken, and I'm not trying to bypass it. I'm gonna need to acknowledge what's actually happening and stay abreast of what's happening and take care of myself by like, where am I choosing to put my attention? Like where our attention and intention goes is where our energy goes. So my energy really needs to go towards community care and community building. And it can't constantly be in that spiral. So, how am I aware of what's happening without getting like completely hijacked by it is a big thing that I'm doing that's like right now helping me sustain. I think, and it is then, but I have to get to that it and so it does mean, right? Like listening to voices like Jasmine Crockett, Angela Alcelbricks, you know, Ayana Presley, Ilhan Omar, Adrian Marie Brown, the artists, the writers, um, Rob Bresney, these are people that are like giving me so much like hope for what we can build together when we come together. Um, and there's so many more that I didn't name, but like, how am I getting their blogs? How am I reading their stuff? Um, and joining these and moving towards these movements. Um, and then to me, it is really to like daily spiritual practice, like bare bones basic. How is my body? You know, did I eat enough today? Did I have some water today? Like, you know, Trisha Hursty's another really great advocate for rest is part of the revolution. So I I'm I'm orienting towards those leaders. And um, then also just taking care of my body. Um, and I think what I'm doing in terms of what I'm where I'm putting my attention is taking care of my mind and helping it to be sustainable. Um and then also just like trying to spend some part of my day like in wonder whenever I can, in awe. Like this is, I just like have been watching the birds, you know, and and just things like that that just like bring me back to the long cycle of the earth. So yeah. Um, those are just some things I'm doing. Candy, what are you up to? How are you staying grounded in this chaotic time and to sustain yourself?
SPEAKER_02:Am I sustaining myself? I am, I'm trying. Um, I know earlier we kind of mentioned the concept of the healer and the warrior, which is the work of Fania Davis. And I do take that with me everywhere. I think right now, where people find themselves the most drained um is in watching the news constantly and like hearing all these like threats to our safety and programs that we need. And it is like just very disheartening and overwhelming, and it's hard to sustain yourself in that. Um, because a lot of people feel like I need to take to the streets, I need to go and fight this right now. I need to go and do something. Um, but it has to be balanced with taking care of yourself um while also not bypassing or even spiritually bypassing was very real in the world because part of that is yeah, like not everybody has that great privilege of being able to not pay attention and then not feel the impact of it. Um and so, in all the ways, you know, I'm a social worker, so that like advocacy and care is always there. Like I always want to go and like stand up for people. And in all the ways that I, as a marginalized person that's also with a lot of privilege, like is impacted, I do want to like go out and fight for myself. Um, but I also want to go do it for all the marginalized people that are within my life or you know, that I work with. And so that's heavy. But also when I can't fight the world, when I can't dismantle um these systems of oppression um and these systems that are constantly telling me that I'm not worthy or good enough or deserving, um, or the people around me aren't worthy or deserving or good enough. I my healing work allows for me to take the space to dismantle that within me because that's still very real. And so even in my rest, which I'm allowing myself, that is like me as the healer, it is still for the greater good because it allows me to separate myself from this like dominant narrative that's going around to really look at how have I ingested this, right? If white supremacy is the water and we're all swimming in it, right? Like, how have I soaked this up? How is that within me? And a lot of the times it's in the hustle culture of like you need to be out there, you need to be working right now, you're not deserving of this rest, you don't care if you know you're taking the time um to do for yourself or to feel good or to have joy. Um, you know, and I think that that is important. I heard somewhere else someone tell me that like during the um AIDS epidemic, that um people would like protest all day long, and then they would in the evening they would spend time like loving and nurturing their loved ones who were sick, and then they would dance throughout the night, and that is how they sustain themselves, like the dance was still so necessary, so yeah, all of that to say that my rest is my resistance. Um, but even in that rest, I am dismantling that that is within me that has allowed all of this to be upheld for so long. Nothing that's happening is new. This has been our entire lives. There's not any of us like there are black men picking cotton in Louisiana, head and goal of prison. Like, that is our truth, and it's not something that is happening right now. Like, we have all lived in a society that has upheld white supremacy, and so we all have a role in all of that. to be dismantled within us. So allowing yourself to find that time to when am I going to turn the news off, that rest has to, in order to sustain you, has to involve dismantling the impact of white supremacy and the patriarchy that has been born into us because that is the thing that is going to keep you from caring for yourself and maintaining your fight in the long run.
SPEAKER_01:I just hear so much in that like how we call back the divine feminine, which is actually the soul, right? Like how do we come home to our own souls at the end of the day and call all the pieces of ourselves back to the center and give them space to be held in compassion so that we can walk forward in the world and compassionate and be compassionate warriors. Like without our without our tending to our own souls that will never happen. I'm so grateful for both of you and all of the time that you have dedicated to our community and you know all the wisdom that you share with me on a regular basis. I just couldn't be more grateful for these relationships in my life and I know that like these dark times are afoot. And um but I I just am so grateful for your light and your time. So thank you.