Civilized Warfare

When Liz Tilberis relaunched Harper's Bazaar in 1992, the fact that she was Anna Wintour's former right-hand—and her polar opposite—fueled press stories about a feud between fashion's top two editors. Some of it was drummed up, and some of it wasn't. 

In this episode, cohosts Dennis Golonka and Cynthia True talk to friends and colleagues, including Grace Coddington, Paul Cavaco, Tonne Goodman, Susan Magrino, and Isaac Mizrahi, about the truth of Anna and Liz's complicated relationship and about how Liz remains Anna's only real rival to this day. 

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Transcript

Isaac Mizrahi

The perspective of Vogue is a very, very, very kind of bitchy kind of thing. Bazaar was not. 

Annemarie Iverson

I mean, the elephant in the room—haha—is Anna Wintour. I mean, she’s defined as the flip side, right?

Susan Magrino

I think Liz would have wanted to be friendlier, but she knew Anna well enough that Anna was having none of it.

Grace Coddington

She walked in and she did take all Vogue’s photographers. She loved giving Vogue a run for its money. [laughter]

Dennis Golonka

When you say the name Liz Tilberis, the name Anna Wintour is rarely far behind. When you talk about the fact that Liz was famously nice, treated her staff like family, or struggled with her weight, it’s partly because it goes against the stereotype. The inscrutable, cold-blooded fashion editor who ends careers before coffee. A type famously embodied by Anna, who was once Liz’s boss. 

Cynthia True

Bazaar being rebuilt to take on Vogue was, as we’ve talked about, the biggest media story of the decade and the fact that Liz was Anna’s former employee and comic-book opposite helped rumors of animosity between them ignite. Of course, that was irresistible. It played into a good witch / bad witch paradigm and all the clichés about female competition.

Dennis Golonka

Liz and Anna refused to participate. But no matter what either said about it being a friendly competition, the story of them detesting each other just wouldn’t die.

Cynthia True

Because there was some truth in it.

Dennis Golonka

I’m Dennis Golonka. 

Cynthia True

I’m Cynthia True. Back in 1992, we were brand-new assistants at Harper’s Bazaar and witnessed firsthand its remarkable return from newsstand oblivion to its former status as America’s most innovative fashion magazine.

Dennis Golonka

The Nineties were the era of celebrity designers and supermodels. Magazines were at their peak influence. And suddenly, no magazine mattered more than Bazaar, a hip alternative to Vogue. And no one was more celebrated than its effervescent editor, Liz Tilberis.

Cynthia True

This is Blow-Up: When Liz Tilberis Transformed Bazaar. 

Dennis Golonka

You’re listening to Episode Four: Civilized Warfare.

Cynthia True

As gossip about them flew, Anna invited Liz, who was getting settled into her new job at Bazaar, to Vogue’s one-hundredth anniversary party at the New York Public Library. It was the party of the year, and Liz was grateful for the invitation, even if she was anxious about seeing her former Condé Nast colleagues, some of whom had recently cut her dead at the Paris Couture previews, where she’d been seen with Fabien for the first time. Walking up the steps into a place as huge and hallowed as the Library must have itself been overwhelming. 

Dennis Golonka

But Liz was greeted warmly that night by Anna and Si Newhouse, who were aware that everyone who mattered in their world was watching. Anna, wearing white beaded Geoffrey Beene, posed smiling with Liz in a black belted Chanel evening suit for photographer Bill Cunningham in the arched marble lobby. As Liz later put it, “We both knew it was strategically important. She had to be perceived as above the fray, unthreatened by the competition. From my point of view,” she added, “the more people who knew about Harper’s Bazaar, the better.” 

Cynthia True

The photo op didn’t exactly dampen the story. In fact, the photo, which flattered neither Liz nor Anna, turned into the slightly lurid April 27th cover of New York Magazine, which was running an in-depth piece on the Anna-Liz rivalry under the cover line, “War of the Poses: Bazaar’s New Liz takes on Vogue’s Anna.” The story, which was written by the respected fashion writer Michael Gross, introduced American readers to the tangled professional history of Anna and Liz, as well as that of Vogue and Bazaar, which many readers were unaware of thanks to Bazaar’s recent forty-year dip. The piece was juicy, reporting the recent mass firings at Liz’s Bazaar,—despite her prior reassurances—Anna’s plan to keep her team by offering them large salaries, and the fact that Patrick Demarchelier and Steven Meisel were still deciding who to work for.

Dennis Golonka

But ultimately, it emphasized Liz and Anna’s cordial relationship, and even included a picture of the two laughing together at a recent Oscar de la Renta show in New York. Gross noted that as the big Vogue party started to wind down, Liz and Anna ended up at the same table with their mutual friend Karl Lagerfeld. “‘It’s warfare,’ one fashion writer said, ‘but very civilized.’” Here’s former Vogue fashion director, Grace Coddington. 

Grace Coddington

Most of that whole nastiness was somewhat in the press and obviously it got to Liz at times, you know, uh, but that’s the business and that’s, that’s how it works, you know, you don’t go out and be nice to your competitors but you don’t go out of your way to speak nastily about them and she certainly didn’t. Anna, I mean. 

Cynthia True

Here’s Isaac Mizrahi.

Isaac Mizrahi

You know, I will say this, from my perspective, this is what I felt in those days, right? Anna had people that were foe, you know what I mean? But Liz was never one of them. 

Dennis Golonka

Liz’s former assistant, Stephanie Albertson.

Stephanie Albertson

I don’t think that they were bitter enemies or rivals but, you know, that was her competition. You know, I remember I once said to Liz, as a joke, I said, “You know, I think the best ad campaign for Bazaar would be a bus, as it drove by and said, ‘If it’s not in Bazaar, it isn’t in Vogue.’” And she said to me, “Oh Steph, that’s the worst thing I’ve ever heard.” 

Cynthia True

Liz’s former publicist, Susan Magrino.

Susan Magrino

I mean, Liz, I think Liz would have wanted to be friendlier, but she knew Anna well enough that Anna was having none of it. So, I think that, um, you know, that part of it was, you know, they’d see each other, they’d acknowledge each other, um, but she knew Anna too well. 

Grace Coddington

You know, I think it’s upsetting when you read what supposedly the other one has said when they probably haven’t, you know.

Cynthia True

Hearst declined to officially comment for the piece, but Liz and Anna gave Michael Gross careful interviews. Liz met with him in the Hearst dining room, not about to let anyone see what she and Fabien were doing. When he asked about Vogue’s embargo on photographers who chose to work for Bazaar, her butter-wouldn’t-melt response was, “I think it’s an unfortunate thing to do, because it’s possible it may have an adverse effect on the photographers’ attitude toward Condé Nast.” And when Gross asked Anna about Liz trying to recruit Vogue photographers, Anna replied evenly, “I don’t blame Liz for wanting them. I wish she didn’t.” Nothing to see here.

Dennis Golonka

But for all the very British manners, behind the scenes, Anna was furious about Liz. 

Grace Coddington

Yeah, she was mad when Liz went to Bazaar, of course, because, you know, she could see the progression of, then bring her over to America, to American Vogue, blah blah blah, you know, so I mean, she walked in and she did take all Vogue’s photographers.

Dennis Golonka

A top Vogue editor at the time later told author Jerry Oppenheimer for his unauthorized biography of Wintour, Front Row, that Anna had no respect for Liz’s work, thought she was way behind the times, and couldn’t believe she’d worked such an incredible deal for herself. The anonymous editor even added, “Anna put out the word, ‘Destroy Harper’s Bazaar at any cost.’ She wanted to see Liz Tilberis embarrassed out of her job.”

Cynthia True

Anna was so aggravated, in fact, that, according to Oppenheimer, she ended a relationship with a Vogue contributing editor, Georgina Howell, who interviewed Liz about her new job in the British newspaper, The Telegraph. In a way, not surprising. But in the pre-internet days, American readers were highly unlikely to read anything in a British newspaper. Magazine writers, myself included, considered these two completely separate markets. That’s why Howell thought nothing of accepting the assignment. She was so unconcerned, in fact, that when she stopped by Anna’s office to say hello, she told her about it. According to Howell, who died in 2016, Anna reacted angrily to what she felt was an obvious conflict of interest, and Howell’s contract was not renewed. Howell, who considered herself a friend of both women, like Grace or any dozen fashion journalists, was surprised. It’s not as if the profile wasn’t going to happen if she didn’t write it. But Anna wasn’t going to put up with anyone on her team helping to celebrate Liz’s success.

Dennis Golonka

What is also true is that despite Liz later saying that she and Anna privately begged editors to lay off the personal rivalry story, the feud angle was a major element in the marketing of the new Nineties Bazaar as a sorely needed agent of change.

Cynthia True

The unsubtle idea was that if Vogue, as embodied by Anna, was the stick-thin, bitchy establishment figure, Liz’s Bazaar was the kinder, curvier upstart. In fact, Liz led with that when she recruited key figures to join Bazaar. Her magazine would be a cozy place where staff were treated warmly as creative equals.

Dennis Golonka

As Liz recalled it, “Anna Wintour’s style, as I knew from working with her, is prescriptive. She tells people what she wants, and they have to come back with it. I kept repeating that Bazaar was going to be far more democratic.” Here’s former beauty director Annemarie Iverson. 

Annemarie Iverson

It was a smart move of Liz to present herself that way and I think it was New York Magazine wrote a big feature on them. I almost think Liz relished that because it elevated her. Instant, instant elevation. 

Susan Magrino

She was definitely mischievous and she was—there was definitely rivalry and I’m sure you’ve heard that from other people. I mean, she had this amazing group—you know, Paul and Tonne and, you know, Annemarie and people but Paul and Tonne in particular, who had really been in fashion for a long time and knew how the game was played and how it worked and I think she had great delight in having such real stars.

Cynthia True

The bad blood between Anna and Liz stemmed from the 18 months that they worked together when Anna was editor of British Vogue. In 1986, when Beatrix Miller retired after 22 years, Anna was brought in from New York to replace her. Anna had most recently been fashion director at American Vogue, and her mandate was to make the whimsical British Vogue slicker and more pragmatic like its American sister. As Liz put it, no more Wellington boots and Scottish castles. Anna’s British Vogue was all about working women suited up and hailing taxis. Liz and Grace, who had been at British Vogue for some twenty years, and were largely responsible for the romantic escapism Anna planned to eradicate, were horrified. They believed in pulling the reader deep into a gorgeous anything goes fantasy to inspire their own fashion creativity. Whereas Anna wanted British Vogue to be a beautiful catalogue of sorts, full of pages that you could tear out and bring to the store. It felt like an indictment of everything they’d worked for. “Grace was very much the queen of fashion in London, and here I come with a lot of attention on me,” Anna said later. “Obviously, it was very difficult for her.”

Dennis Golonka

Liz later admitted that she couldn’t believe what Beatrix Miller had allowed she and Grace to get away with. "I’m astonished," Liz said, "when I look back on what Grace and I were doing. Our pages were a high-wire act that narrowly avoided toppling into pure eccentricity. Faces doused in powder paint, hair set in plaster, yellow lips, red eyes, clothes that were upside-down, inside-out, lashed together with bondage straps." 

Cynthia True

The story both Liz and Anna told about their immediate creative clash occurred on Anna’s first day at British Vogue. As Anna recalled it, Liz came into her office to proudly present her latest work, a series of black-and-white photos of young women wrapped up in bandages, looking, Anna said, as if they dropped from Mars. “This is very new,” Liz said. “Oh God,” Anna groaned, “I’m back in England.” Still, when Anna fired most of the staff, Liz and Grace were spared.

Dennis Golonka

In fact, Anna even surprised Liz with a big raise. When Anna called Liz to tell her, Liz was so surprised that she stammered, “I don’t know what to say.” “You could say thank you,” Anna replied. Liz called it a retort actually. What’s interesting about this exchange, which is from Liz’s recollection, is that you could see Anna’s response as a little bit of teasing. An attempt at a joke, even. But Liz remembered it as a pointed comment, the kind that made her extremely anxious in Anna’s presence, a feeling she would come to resent.

Cynthia True

In any case, their personality clash was far worse than their aesthetic one. Liz had known Anna since the early Seventies when she was at British Vogue, and Anna was at Harper’s and Queen, the British version of Harper’s Bazaar. They both covered the lingerie market and often met up at showrooms and events, where they recognized each other, in Liz’s words, as “two ambitious neophytes.” But they drifted apart with Anna’s early career taking her to New York. And over the years, Liz had heard lots of stories about her. One from their mutual hairdresser, Charlie Chan, who gave them both their perfect bobs. He enjoyed talking to his clients about their astrological charts while he worked, and he said that Anna had told him to put a sock in it. 

Dennis Golonka

Just after taking over at British Vogue, Anna had asked Liz where she stored her furs. Liz, who was typically found in a rumpled linen shirt, sleeves rolled up, struggled to keep a straight face. She was also put off by the way Anna hid behind her dark shades in staff meetings, tapping her pencil on her desk when she didn’t like an idea. Liz told people Anna was “dictatorial,” a person who “didn’t let anything so mundane as courtesy get in her way.” For someone like Liz, for whom good manners were a religion, Anna’s interpersonal style was shocking. 

Cynthia True

But what really stung was the way that Anna had waylaid British Vogue culture. It’s worth noting that while we think of Anna Wintour as English, the British Vogue staff considered her American—she’s one half—and resented what they saw as her “New York intensity.” Senior staff were used to gliding into Vogue House around ten. Anna now had town cars pick up top editors at an eye-watering eight a.m.

Dennis Golonka

And the days of collaboration were over. Anna knew what she wanted, and that was it. Grace and Liz were expected to check in with her on the smallest creative decisions, but she still ordered endless reshoots, rarely liking what they brought in. Worse, Anna thought nothing of just shutting down a sitting and sending the crew home if she didn’t like the Polaroid test shots they messengered to the office. 

Cynthia True

It all made them feel like misbehaving teenagers, not valued senior staff. When Anna felt Grace was taking too long at lunch, she tracked her down at her favorite restaurant, San Lorenzo, and demanded she return immediately. On the morning of Liz’s father-in-law’s funeral, Anna called her at home to tell her she was spending too much money and couldn’t bring her assistant on an upcoming shoot to New York. “Hire someone when you get there,” she told Liz. It was a highly unusual edict for a cash cow like Vogue. One editor at the time called it “harassment, pure and simple.”

Dennis Golonka

The tension came to a head when Anna joined Grace and Liz for New York Fashion Week. One morning, the three stood inside a work suite at the Algonquin Hotel, looking at a double-layer Ralph Lauren coat. Grace deemed it fabulous, and an absolute must include. To Anna, it made no sense. Who on earth would want to wear two coats? For the sake of the look, Grace said. Liz felt like she couldn’t say a word. As the argument between Anna and Grace grew sharper, she started to feel like she couldn’t breathe and had to run out of the room. She was later diagnosed with asthma, which Liz believed was triggered by this moment. She started carrying an inhaler to what she called the horribly tense editorial meetings with Anna.

Cynthia True

Unsurprisingly, Grace soon decided to leave British Vogue. She had accepted a position as Calvin Klein’s design director and was moving to New York right after Christmas. “You don’t need a fashion director,” Grace told Anna. “Because you’re it.” 

Dennis Golonka

Liz burst into tears when she heard that Grace was leaving. But then she washed her face and asked Anna if she could have Grace’s job. She was in line after all. Anna didn’t answer her right away. Liz wasn’t surprised. She had been openly fighting Anna’s vision every step of the way. But then Anna took her to lunch. She told her that if she wanted to stay and become her number two, she’d have to stop complaining. “I’m tired of hearing about the good old days,” Anna said. 
 “You know how to do what I want. The question is, will you?” 

Cynthia True

Anna got through to her. Liz realized there was no reason Anna should put up with insubordinate behavior. She wouldn’t if she were in Anna’s position. So even if she would never be comfortable with Anna’s approach, Liz realized she owed it to her own future to set that aside and become a dependable second-in-command. Anna made Liz fashion director in January 1987, and things got slightly more relaxed between them. Liz felt like Anna was starting to trust her a little more, although she certainly didn’t “enjoy” working for her as it was later claimed in the “War of the Poses” piece. In fact, she continued to feel hugely stressed out in Anna’s presence, and unexcited by her vision. Most of all, she missed her partner-in-crime, Grace. 

Dennis Golonka

Fortunately, Liz’s profile had raised enough by this point, and perhaps word of her discontent had sufficiently spread, that she began to get outside offers. The first was from Ralph Lauren, who called her personally one morning and asked if they could meet for breakfast at the Plaza Hotel when she was in New York for the collections. He offered Liz a job on the spot. He thought having an editor on his team could be effective. Liz said she needed to consider it. After they parted, Liz called Grace at Calvin Klein to find out what she thought, and of course, swear her to secrecy. Liz was confused when Grace didn’t have much of a reaction. She was oddly quiet, in fact.

Cynthia True

When Liz got back to her hotel room, there was a message from Calvin Klein. “What would you think about coming to work for me?” he asked. The salary he was offering was five times what she made at British Vogue.

Grace Coddington

 And she said yes, she was certainly very interested. But it was head of the younger department at Calvin, CK or something, you know, so she realized that once again I would be over her, you know, and it was that thing of always trying to escape from being under me. So she sort of said she would take the job and then she called me and she said, “Are you sitting down?” and I said Yeah, and she said, “I’m not going to Calvin, I’m going to Ralph Lauren.” And I’m like, “Oh my god.” She said, “Yeah, I got the same job as you at Ralph.”

Cynthia True

Ralph Lauren even matched the two-hundred fifty-thousand Calvin Klein was offering, about seven-hundred thousand in today’s money.

Dennis Golonka

Liz and Andrew put their home up for sale, and after her deal with Ralph Lauren closed in June 1987, Liz went into Anna’s office to resign. Anna’s response was not exactly what Liz was expecting.

Cynthia True

“Why didn’t you tell me?” Anna asked. She told Liz the job sounded ridiculous. For someone who wanted creative freedom, she wasn’t going to get it at Ralph Lauren. “Don’t you realize you won’t be able to change one shirt button?” she added. Liz worried Anna might be right, but she tried to focus on the enormous salary waiting for her in New York as her friends planned a going away party for her at the Savoy Hotel. 

Dennis Golonka 

Two days later, however, Anna had news for Liz. In a closed-door meeting, she informed Liz that she was leaving British Vogue. Liz wasn’t totally surprised. She’d heard that Anna, who was being treated brutally in the British press, and whose husband was based in New York, longed to return there. But what came out of Anna’s mouth next shocked her: “Do you want to be the editor of British Vogue?”

Grace Coddington

At that point, I think, they realized if she was gone and I was gone, it would be very difficult for them, and they, you know, Anna didn’t want to stay at Vogue forever—British Vogue. 

Cynthia True

Liz was speechless. She had never considered this a real possibility for herself. Yes, she was the magazine’s number two, but it was, as Liz said, a huge leap to the number one spot. She said yes immediately, which was a big deal because Andrew, who had rigorously negotiated the Ralph Lauren contract, had had the entire house packed up. Their belongings were in boxes at Heathrow. She didn’t know how she was going to tell him, but after he processed the shock news, Andrew once again stepped in as Liz’s agent and made sure that Condé Nast covered the cost of reversing their plans and paid Liz more money than she’d ever dreamed of.

Dennis Golonka

When Liz called Ralph Lauren to tell him she was staying at British Vogue, he was as gracious as could be. Liz had to also ask him to please stay quiet about Anna’s leaving, because it was still a secret. Even so, reporters tracked Liz down in Long Island where she was doing a cover shoot with Naomi Campbell. They kept calling the inn Liz was staying at, and an assistant kept saying, “Sorry, she’s at the beach.” Finally in July, Anna was announced as the new editor of House and Garden magazine, or HG as it was now called, and Liz was announced as the editor of British Vogue. Liz and her family celebrated with takeout fish and chips and a bottle of champagne.

Grace Coddington

So that’s how it all slotted in and Anna came here and et cetera, et cetera. And, so she, I think she thought, “That’s it.”

Cynthia True

Before Anna left for New York, she called Karl Lagerfeld in Paris and asked him to take care of Liz. It would be Liz’s first time ordering serious couture to wear to the office, and she relished the fit of their meticulously structured suits. Liz later said that when Karl began sending her endless handwritten faxes, with his thoughts on fashion, elegance, and craft, that Anna may have felt his care was too good. Stephanie Albertson again.

Stephanie Albertson

He would draw her little sketches and they would sit behind closed doors and have long conversations with each other where they just giggled. I would just hear her like howling and giggling and I can still hear her voice. You know, she had a very twinkly little voice and I do remember sitting at my desk sometimes thinking, how can two people talk for so long about a pant leg? You know, or like the hem of a skirt, or the way that the shoulder was, you know, cut on a jacket. They would spend so much time dissecting this. 

Dennis Golonka

Liz loved their long phone calls and her trips over to Lagerfeld’s Paris atelier, the nerve center of fashion, where she felt very much a part of his inner circle. Karl was known for hiding behind his sunglasses, too. But he had other qualities, including an eighteenth-century mansion in Paris, where he threw fantasy dinner parties under eighteen-foot ceilings.

Cynthia True

Years later when she was at Bazaar, Liz sometimes brought her top editors, like Annemarie Iverson, with her to Karl’s world. 

Annemarie Iverson

One year, I think it was her last trip to the Couture, Liz—and I didn’t normally go to Couture—had me come to Paris. And I remember sitting next to her. And when the lights went down, it was Chanel and Karl, her friend, I could just feel her going into this magic world. It was like she took a breath, and it was just, she just transported herself, and she believed the magic. She believed these clothes. She knew what it took to create these incredible costumes. Dinner was very fabulous and people would come in at different times in crazy outfits and, you know, it was his staff and cat and at some point I was in the bathroom with Karl and he was talking through his fragrances with me and gave me one of his personal fragrances, you know…talking about it now, it sounds surreal. But being there, I mean, it was hilarious. It was really hilarious. You know, it was like, it was really like an eighteenth-century maison particulière. And it really was out of a different era. 

Cynthia True

Karl once sent Liz some of the “different era” white powder he used on his famous ponytail, but customs thought it was cocaine and confiscated it. Never, Liz later said, has any man been so connected to royalty, photographers, models, artists, club-goers, everyone who makes the fashion world spin.

Dennis Golonka

But as Liz settled into her glamorous new existence, balanced by her sweatshirt-and-leggings life as a mom, the magazine musical chairs were not quite over. After less than a year at HG, Anna was announced as the new editor of American Vogue.

Cynthia True

And Grace, of all people, was joining her. She was a little bored at Calvin Klein and she wanted to come back to editorial.

Grace Coddington

And I love Calvin and we had a good, and still do, relationship. But I just wasn’t so good on that side of the business. Um, so when Anna went to Vogue, I called her and said, “Could I have my old job back?” And she said, “I’m starting on Monday. Do you want to start with me?” And I said, “Okay, fine.” So we started on the same day.

Cynthia True

It was a fascinating turn of events, but Anna wanted to bring back a bit of Grace’s romanticism. And her brilliance. As Anna later admitted, she had tacked a little too hard to the right at British Vogue. For American Vogue, she was looking for a balance of escapism and accessibility.

Dennis Golonka

Anna must have thought she had things sorted out. She was now in the top job in fashion. Grace was by her side, and Liz was likely to happily stay at British Vogue for years to come. Maybe even the rest of her career, like Beatrix Miller. And on some level, Liz must have been aware of Anna’s promotion of her as somewhat strategic. A vote of confidence, but also a kind of tucking away.

Grace Coddington

Well, obviously, they were both competitive. But it is true that Anna championed her and, you know, she’s the one that said, “I don’t want to stay in England forever. For God’s sake, get her to be editor-in-chief now, before she disappears,” you know. And she had done all those sorts of things for me, too. And, you know, if she respects you, and—mmm, I don’t know about likes, but likes, yes—you know, she will, over the years, do everything and anything, you know, she is, she doesn’t just drop you or anything like that.

Cynthia True

Regardless, it had to have been pretty satisfying when Liz found herself the hot new arrival in New York, with solid backing to take on her ex-boss and her worldview. And if Anna was pissed off about colleagues like Georgina Howell celebrating Liz’s big move, she chose to accept the fact that her own fashion director, Grace Coddington, was the one who recommended Liz for the job. It was probably relief enough that Grace had turned down the job herself. When Hearst president Claeys Bahrenburg called, she had told him she was very happy at Vogue before giving him Liz’s number. 

Grace Coddington

 I was just beginning to get a real good foothold at American Vogue, and you know, and they were very good to me. Um, in every way, financially too, so, uh, but not just that, you know, Condé Nast was somehow a bigger fashion thing than Hearst. Hearst in a way just had Bazaar but then this call came from Claeys to me so I said, “You, you have to call Liz Tilberis and I happen to know she’s at home now because I’ve just put the phone down on her.” And so we laughed, and he indeed called her right there and then, and I was, you know, really excited because she was coming over. 

Cynthia True

And even as both sides fed the feud story, Anna knew that Liz and Grace’s friendship would continue to be as close as ever. It was a lot for any boss to deal with, their Number Two being personally devoted to their professional rival. Susan Magrino again.

Susan Magrino

I mean, think about it. Grace Coddington was her best friend. I was like, “Are you sure if she’s not going to say something?” And she goes, “Don’t worry.” I mean, you could imagine when the two of them got together.

Grace Coddington

We’re grown-ups, we could navigate it without, you know… We obviously remained very, very close friends, and it was a funny relationship because I couldn’t really—well, firstly, I couldn’t discuss anything I was doing, and she couldn’t discuss anything she was either. 

Cynthia True

Liz and Grace were also careful not to stoke the flames by being seen together in public.

Grace Coddington

You know, if we were seen having lunch together or something, it would not have been too good. 

Dennis Golonka

When they went overseas to the shows, however, they insisted on booking seats together for the overnight flight across the Atlantic. They called it “sleeping with the enemy.”

Grace Coddington

But the other thing I did, which was very funny, because at that time I was staying in the Ritz when we went to Paris, and so was she. So we got like adjoining rooms. [laughs]

Dennis Golonka

Love it.

Grace Coddington

And at the end of the day we went and raided the minibar and stuff like that. 

Isaac Mizrahi

The perspective of Vogue is a very, very, very kind of bitchy kind of thing, you know, and that’s, that’s, that’s what fashion is, you know, that’s what, that’s what fashion has always been. Bazaar was not. Bazaar was just this incredibly beautiful thing. 

Cynthia True

Here’s former Bazaar fashion director, Paul Cavaco.

Paul Cavaco

We competed not against each other, but against kind of what the world was in fashion. You know, so we were like, we have to be better. We have to do this better.

Cynthia True

There was actually a good side to the renewed rivalry between Bazaar and Vogue. Former Bazaar fashion director, Tonne Goodman.

Tonne Goodman

I remember running into Arthur Elgort at the Crillon in Paris during the collections. And he said, “Tonne,” he said, “I can’t thank you enough.” He said, “It’s just great, you know, you’ve really, the ante has been upped with Harper’s Bazaar. So we’re all working, we’re all working, you know, harder and with more enthusiasm than we were before because we have a challenge now.” And it was, you know, it was very well expressed because that was, that’s what was happening.

Dennis Golonka

Yeah. Yeah, it was a real movement and you felt the change.

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hm. Oh, it was great. It was great. It was a great thing. I mean, I remember we did a cover with all the Gucci, I believe it was, bathing suits. And there was a fight to the finish to get those bathing suits. Because Vogue had, you know, their hands on them also. And but by that time, I think the designers, first of all, the designers loved Liz. They absolutely adored her. And I think that they loved what she was bringing to this new arena, this whole challenge for everybody. And I think that they wanted to support her. And in the end, I remember I got all the bathing suits. 

Dennis Golonka

Of course you did. [laughs] I love. 

Susan Magrino

I mean, I have to say, the one thing I felt is that she did get up every day—she knew she had to hit, you know, zero to sixty pretty quickly. There, there really was, you know, other than that summer of getting that first issue out, there was no coasting after that. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah. 

Cynthia True

Right.

Susan Magrino

And the world got more competitive, you know, they were taking notice. Liz was very aware of what she needed to do to keep up. 

Cynthia True

Vogue and Bazaar were dealing with a shrinking marketplace that included Elle and Mirabella, and it was a constant competition for rare talent. In 1995, Vogue’s highly regarded celebrity booker, Maggie Buckley, defected to Bazaar just as actresses were becoming crucial to newsstand sales. And then, a year later, Paul Cavaco left Bazaar for Vogue. That one was really rough for Liz, losing Paul to Anna.

Dennis Golonka

Paul called Liz from a shoot to tell her. She later said that what bothered her about it was that he told her over the phone. But of course, she was upset because he was a big part of the magazine’s identity. And she adored him. It wasn’t a total surprise. Paul and Fabien had been having creative tension, which was a shame because Fabien had worked so hard to get Paul. It manifested around a controversial story called Smile. 

Paul Cavaco

It was the whole issue. It wasn’t a story. That’s what the problem was. 

Cynthia True

Right, the concept was an entire issue, with everyone smiling in every single story. Bazaar had been getting heat for what some were calling a heroin chic vibe in the magazine. Liz and her team took exception to that, of course, but there’s no question that disaffected youth was having its moment. It was a post punk thing, but it was also a reflection of the way depression was a major part of the zeitgeist. In the spring of 1994, Kurt Cobain shot himself at the height of his fame. A few months later, Elizabeth Wurtzel’s generation-defining memoir about atypical depression, Prozac Nation, came out with a beautiful and forlorn young author on the cover. 

Paul Cavaco

So I thought we should do the whole issue smiling. And Fabien was completely against it, saying, “you can’t do a whole issue smiling.” I said, but you can do a whole issue sad, why can’t you do a whole issue smiling? Because everyone, it’s kind of perverse. 

Cynthia True

It’s hilarious, yeah. 

Paul Cavaco

Also then people say, oh it’s happy. Because everybody wants happy. But everybody else was on board, so we did it. All the editors did smiling pictures, and then the pictures, you know, go to the art department, and he starts putting it together, and rather than run them as stories, he starts breaking it up, which at the time was actually very revolutionary. But he would take like a picture for one, you know, like for my story, juxtapose it with a picture of Tonne’s story. And then do a picture from the runway with another picture from my story. But you didn’t get the sense of people laughing, obviously, because he was trying to stamp it out. And I have a very big ego, and I got furious, and I was like, you know. He had never ever messed with my stories. He was always—like I love Fabien, we had always gotten along really well. He always did good by me, like he loved my stories. And I just thought, I don’t think I can do this anymore.

Cynthia True

Of course, it wasn’t just about that one story. Paul felt like he was giving Bazaar everything he had. And it was frustrating to have Fabien, who was often away at the Baron and Baron offices, per the terms of his deal, then show up and change everything. 

Paul Cavaco

I was used to having my own company, so I kind of walked around Bazaar, like, you know, because no one leaves their office. I walk around everywhere. I would walk into the art department, you know, when Fabien wasn’t there, and the all the poor, like, art directors were there, and they’d say, we don’t know what to do, and I’d start with them, just say, do this, do this. I didn’t know. Then Fabien would come and change it to be, you know, a thousand times better, but at least I felt like I got things in motion. 

Cynthia True

As a widely respected visionary himself, Paul was not accustomed to feeling less than integral.

Paul Cavaco

I’m gonna be completely honest here, you know, I, I had thought, well, you know, Liz has to choose between us. 

Cynthia True

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco 

And Fabien’s contract was up and, she chose Fabien in the end and it was like, and at the time I was like, What, she chose Fabien? My God, I’m the one that’s here every day. And I got, you know, upset about it. And I had told her I was going to leave if she did, so I left. And then years passed and I thought, of course she chose Fabien. The look of the magazine is Fabien. You know, I think, I provided something different, you know, but they had Tonne who’s a brilliant editor, Sarajane’s a great editor. You know, there’s only one Fabien. That’s what made Bazaar different. I, of course, didn’t think at the time I had an ego. [laughter] You know, duh. And then, of course, like years later, I realized, oh my god, that was so egotistical on my part, you know, to think that I was, you know….

Cynthia True

Was it tough decision for you to leave knowing that Liz was going through something big?

Paul Cavaco

Yes. It was. Yeah, I mean, you know, I had just gone through a whole, you know, my daughter’s mother had just passed away, my dad had passed, you know, I lost my entire family within three years for the most part. And so it was, I didn’t, you know, I don’t know if that played into the fact that I just, I don’t think I could have watched it again even though I did see Liz, when she was sick, I did visit her and stuff. We always remained friendly. But not, you know, to the same extent, because I did leave, and it was not, you know, I don’t think it was pleasant for her. It was like a family. Like, in a family, when someone leaves, I think, there’s a loss to deal with. But Liz was also very sick. 

Dennis Golonka

Not long after Paul left, Liz was working on her memoir, No Time To Die, which was a candid account of facing an ovarian cancer diagnosis. She was equally frank about her dislike for Anna, a one-eighty from her position four years earlier during the height of the feud stories. It was here that Liz blamed Anna for triggering her asthma. She added that it had only gone away when she started chemo.

Cynthia True

The truth is, it was a pretty tough public takedown. An unusual move for Liz. But of course, she was going through an unimaginably hard time. Whatever her reasons for departing from her usual diplomacy, she clearly felt burnt and saw no need to gloss over a topic her publishers were undoubtedly happy to include in the book. Some of the stories were light, gossipy, but in total it was charged. It was personal. Liz wanted people to know exactly how she had been affected by Anna. The healthy competition hadn’t been all that healthy, even if it was sometimes fun. Next time, we discuss the cost when two highly creative women are thrown into a corporate structure in which exceptionalism is a thin cover for misogyny. Just kidding. We’ll talk about how Liz faced sudden new budget realities at Bazaar and the age of the celebrity cover. 

Dennis Golonka

We’re going behind the scenes with Paul Cavaco and Linda Evangelista again to talk about their incredible—and slightly torturous—Peter Lindbergh shoot, Sheer Nights, with Hugh Grant. I’ll also talk about the time Liz asked me to help prepare for a meeting with our first cover star, Daryl Hannah, and how it went very wrong. 

Cynthia True

Blow-Up is independently produced and ad-free. If you’d like to support us, please visit our Buy Me a Coffee page. The link is in our show notes. 

Dennis Golonka

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate, and review us. Wondering what some of the images discussed in the episode look like? Follow us on Instagram or TikTok @blowuppod.

Cynthia True

Blow-Up is hosted and produced by Dennis Golonka and me, Cynthia True. It was written and edited by me, Cynthia True. Original theme song is by Stephen Phillips. Sound design and mix, Erik Wiese. Sound and music editing, Tiger Lily Biskup. The episode was recorded at VoiceTrax West, The Cutting Room, and Digital Arts New York. Special thanks to Clay Morrow and Matthew Saver