The Reunion

For the first time in decades, the supergroup that made Harper's Bazaar the coolest fashion magazine of the Nineties—Creative Director Fabien Baron, Co-Fashion Directors Paul Cavaco and Tonne Goodman, and Accessories Director Richard Sinnott—reunites with former colleagues and co-hosts Cynthia True and Dennis Golonka to talk about how working with editor-in-chief Liz Tilberis was lightning-in-a-bottle.

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Transcript

Cynthia True

This is Blow-Up: When Liz Tilberis Transformed Bazaar. I’m Cynthia True. 

Dennis Golonka

And I’m Dennis Golonka. Welcome to our final full episode, a Nineties Bazaar reunion with former creative director Fabien Baron, co-fashion directors Paul Cavaco and Tonne Goodman and accessories director of Richard Sinnott. It was the first time they—we—had been together in decades. It’s something I’d never imagined experience, and it was so wonderful. We hope you enjoy it. How are you? 

Cynthia True

This is so nice! 

Richard Sinnott

Oh my god, it’s so nice to see you.

Dennis Golonka

So great. 

Dennis Golonka

So Tonne’s coming, and then Paul and Fabien are gonna be on the Zoom. Fabien’s Zooming from Paris and, uh

Richard Sinnott

Chic.

Dennis Golonka

Paul—I know. 

Richard Sinnott

And Paul’s waking up early? 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah, he’s in LA. 

Cynthia True

Paul got up at five AM.  

Richard Sinnott

You know, I love that man. 

Cynthia True

Oh look, I think he’s on. 

Richard Sinnott

Hi, Paul Cavaco. 

Cynthia True

Hello, Paul Cavaco. 

Dennis Golonka

Hello Fab. 

Richard Sinnott

Hi Fabien! I miss you! 

Cynthia True

It’s great to see you guys. 

Richard Sinnott

Paul, are you gonna brush your teeth? 

[electric whirring]

Paul Cavaco

No, I, I’m making coffee. It is five fucking forty-five in the morning. And I’m dressed and showered and combed. 

Richard Sinnott

Tonne’s downstairs. 

Dennis Golonka

Oh Paul, put the headphones on. 

Paul Cavaco

I don’t have headphones. 

Richard Sinnott

Do you have ear muffs? 

Paul Cavaco

I have a muff. 

Dennis Golonka

[laughs]

Richard Sinnott

She’s here. Tonne’s here. Here she is. 

Tonne Goodman

Rich, Rich, Rich, Rich. Paul, you’re looking awfully well, I must say. 

Richard Sinnott

Mmm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

It’s all blurred out. What can you tell? 

Tonne Goodman

Oh, Fabien. 

Fabien Baron

I have music in my—

Tonne Goodman

You have music? 

Paul Cavaco

[laughs]

Fabien Baron

I have fucking music in my—like, why? 

Cynthia True

This is Blow-Up: When Liz Tilberis Transformed Bazaar. So my first question is, when was the last time you guys were all in the same room together? You can go around if you want. 

Tonne Goodman

Woo. Fabien, you start. 

Fabien Baron

Oh my God, all together? I don’t know, like probably on the last issue of, of Harper’s Bazaar that we’ve done together, which was the White Issue. 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah.

Fabien Baron

I think. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah, but Paul wouldn’t have been there.

Paul Cavaco

I wasn’t there in the same room. I think probably Liz’s memorial. 

Dennis Golonka

That’s what I was thinking. 

Tonne Goodman

Right. 

Richard Sinnott

That makes sense.

Cynthia True

Because you guys haven’t really had occasion to work with each other again since that time, have you, even though you’re— 

Tonne Goodman

Well, Paul and I work together all the time. 

Fabien Baron

I’ve worked with Paul and I work with Tonne separately.

Paul Cavaco

I used to see, I used to see Fabien dropping his daughter off at school. [laughs] We would see each other and I, you know, I’d see, I see Richard, you know. 

Richard Sinnott

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

I saw him this summer. I saw Tonne this summer. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

So, yes.

Fabien Baron

I run into Richard a couple of times as well. 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Dennis Golonka

Everybody runs into Richard. 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

Where, is the question?

Dennis Golonka

[laughs]

Tonne Goodman

But Fabien, where are you? Are you in Paris now, or are you—you’re in Paris? 

Fabien Baron

Yes, I’m in Paris.

Tonne Goodman

Okay.

Richard Sinnott

Chic.

Fabien Baron

I live in Paris now. 

Tonne Goodman

And did you sell the apartment, the house on 9th Street? 

Fabien Baron

Yeah. 

Tonne Goodman 

You did? Mm-hmm. 

Richard Sinnott

For how much? 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah.

[laughter]

Cynthia True

I wanted to ask you, um, from what we can tell, none of you really knew Liz well prior to Bazaar, and correct me if I’m wrong about that, but was going to work for her sort of a leap of faith or did she just have that great a reputation?

Tonne Goodman

Paul, you knew her. 

Paul Cavaco

I actually knew her. We, we met ‘cause  we used to work with Patrick Demarchelier, Bruce Weber, and Alex Chatelein. So I had met her in London with Bruce. We had had dinner together and then we one time shared clothes. 

Cynthia True

But you didn’t know her well. 

Paul Cavaco

I didn’t know her well, but I knew her well enough to know that she was a nice human being.

Fabien Baron

I knew her out of her reputation myself. That’s it. 

Tonne Goodman

Me too. 

Fabien Baron

But, like, the reputation was great. She had a good reputation of being nice, which was something not common in this industry at the time. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

And so it was nice, you know, and when I met her, it was exactly what people had told me about her. She was charming and nice.

Cynthia True

And what about you, Tonne?

Tonne Goodman

I had not met her before and I knew her by reputation and it spoke for itself. 

Paul Cavaco

Were you interviewed, Tonne, actually? 

Tonne Goodman

Um, I don’t think so. I don’t think I was.

Paul Cavaco

Because, I mean, I just called her and said, I want this job ‘cause Fabien told me to do it. 

Dennis Golonka

So you called her? 

Paul Cavaco

I called her. Fabien said, “You should do this.” And I called her and I said, “I wanna be your fashion director.” And she was like, “Oh. Oh my God. I just offered it to someone and I’m waiting to hear back. I’ll let you know.” 

Tonne Goodman 

And who was that? That was…

Paul Cavaco

It was Carlyne. She had asked, I think, Grace first. 

Cynthia True

Paul’s referring to Carlyne Cerf de Dudzeele, at that time a Fashion Editor-at-Large at Vogue. By Grace, he means, of course, Grace Coddington, who was then Fashion Director at Vogue. 

Paul Cavaco

Grace first, and then Carlyne. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Cynthia True

Tonne, how about you? She approached you? What was the connection, do you recall? 

Tonne Goodman

I, you know what? I don’t—Paul, how did that happen? 

Paul Cavaco

Paul Wilmot. 

Dennis Golonka

Paul Wilmot was, at that time, the Senior Vice President of Public Relations and Communications at Calvin Klein.

Paul Cavaco

Paul Wilmot called her. 

Tonne Goodman

Oh. 

Fabien Baron

It was Paul Wilmot and me actually as well with Steven because at the time when you were called, you know, I was telling Steven we should take Tonne, right? And Steven was supposed to come with us, and now I get a new piece of information I never had about this Carlyne Cerf. No wonder why she showed up to that lunch.

Tonne Goodman

Which lunch? 

Paul Cavaco

What lunch? 

Fabien Baron

The lunch we had with Liz. Tonne, you were there. Were you there? 

Tonne Goodman

I believe so. 

Fabien Baron

Yes. It was right downstairs at the Pierre. And it was Steven Meisel, myself…right? And Carlyne showed up in the middle of lunch. 

Tonne Goodman

Okay. 

Fabien Baron

And we were talking about Steven for his contract, to get him under contract, and she basically stopped that conversation, Carlyne.

Tonne Goodman

Mmm.

Paul Cavaco

Really. 

Fabien Baron

Because I said to her, “What the fuck is she doing here?” 

Cynthia True

Fabien was asking Liz what Carlyne was doing at their lunch. 

Fabien Baron

Why is she here? 

Tonne Goodman

Well, I wasn’t there actually. 

Fabien Baron

And now I get it. Because also she felt she could be maybe part of it because she was proposed— 

Paul Cavaco

Yeah, she was proposed the job. Yeah.

Fabien Baron 

Fashion Director. There we go. But she probably was the one convincing Steven not to go. 

Tonne Goodman

Ah. 

Paul Cavaco

Really? I thought it was always that Franca— 

Dennis GolonkaFranca is the late Franca Sozzani, then the editor-in-chief of Italian Vogue, where Meisel had done his most groundbreaking work

Paul Cavaco

Franca told him that he would not be able to work for Italian Vogue and therefore would end up losing all his, you know, Italian—

Tonne Goodman

Creative— 

Paul Cavaco

Advertising.

Tonne Goodman

Ah. 

Paul Cavaco

And you know, that was the one place where, you know, ‘cause Vogue was—

Fabien Baron

Yes, there was that as well. It’s probably more that.

Paul Cavaco

It was probably weighing all of those factors together. 

Dennis Golonka

One of the things about Bazaar was that we had so many great nights out: the CFDA awards, the Met Gala, Liz’s Christmas parties. But what’s a highlight for you? 

Tonne Goodman

I remember your birthday, um, Fabien, that you held at that church. 

Fabien Baron

Oh, that was fun. Yes, that was so much fun! 

Tonne Goodman

And you had, you had Tito Puentes, isn’t that his name? 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Tonne Goodman

You had Tito Puentes playing and you had guys, I mean, there were, there were, um, dancers that were on the dance floor that were professional dancers that pick people to dance with. Isn’t that true? Because I ended up dancing with this one guy—

Fabien Baron

I have no idea because it was all organized by my office. 

Tonne Goodman

I ended up dancing with this one guy, he was so fabulous. And that was when I was wearing, you know, fishnet stockings, kitten heels and pencil skirts. That was my uniform. And we were wheeling around the, um, dance floor, having so much fun. And you said to me, “Tonne, I didn’t know you could dance.”

Cynthia True

[laughs]

Tonne Goodman

It was great. 

Fabien Baron

And Richard was crazy that evening. 

Richard Sinnott

I don’t remember. 

Cynthia True

Yeah, you’re a little quiet this morning. 

Richard Sinnott

I’m listening to the legends. Like, don’t forget they inherited me back in the day. 

Cynthia True

I know. I—so, okay, this leads me into a question. The three of you were all Richard’s bosses—Paul and Tonne, you most directly. 

Tonne Goodman

No, not really. 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Fabien Baron 

No, not really. He was the mascot. 

Paul Cavaco

[laughs]

Cynthia True

What is it about Richard—

Richard Sinnott

Oh no. 

Cynthia True

—do you think that allowed him to get away with so much? 

Tonne Goodman

Oof. 

Richard Sinnott

Did I get away with a lot? 

Tonne Goodman

Oh…

Dennis Golonka 

All of it. 

Paul Cavaco 

The reason he got away with it is ‘cause  he’s really funny. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

And sweet in the most deranged manner possible. And he made it fun to be at work. Richard and I shared an office for a while. 

Richard Sinnott

We did. 

Paul Cavaco

When we first got there, we didn’t have enough offices for all the people that were coming in, but I had the biggest office, and so I said, Come sit with me. And Richard sat in the desk across the way from my cousin, Elaine, who was my assistant. So I watched Richard in action for a very long time. [laughs]

Richard Sinnott

[laughs] 

Cynthia True

I think you told me a pretty funny story about him and his first computer. 

Paul Cavaco

Well, he didn’t have a computer. 

Richard Sinnott

I had a keyboard. 

Paul Cavaco

Yeah. So he would just type. 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

People would call and ask him if he had returned some jewelry or some purse or some shoe—

Tonne Goodman

[laughs] 

Fabien Baron

“Oh, let me check!” [rapid keyboard clacking] 

Paul Cavaco

Exactly. “Let me check.” 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

And you would hear [rapid keyboard clacking] 

[laughter] 

Tonne Goodman

I forgot that. [laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

Well, you know the environment there, not only because it was filled with geniuses and the top talent in the world—aka you guys—but you guys brought a sense of humor, um, to the office, as well as Liz. And so it just felt so free, um, to say and do what you wanted to do within reason.

Paul Cavaco

Or not. 

Richard Sinnott

[laughs] So everyone had a sense of humor, including Liz. You know, when Liz found out I did a striptease in the back of a pickup truck down Sixth Avenue going to Balthazar—

Cynthia True

[laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

Um, you know, she made a joke about my size by using a French fry.

Paul Cavaco

[laughs] 

Dennis Golonka

Which we have documentation of photographically.

Richard Sinnott

Yes, yes. 

Cynthia True

Oh, this is the first time I’m hearing that. 

Tonne Goodman 

Um, that is the first time I’ve heard that. Actually. Mmm-mmm. 

Richard Sinnott

But it was the most exciting time, I think, not only in terms of the pictures, um, the art direction, the magazine, but the personalities and the group of people that she assembled, I mean, you know, it was kind of like a Camelot in a way, you know? And we all kind of are bonded on some level from that. You know, when I bump into anyone that I worked with at Harper’s Bazaar, you see them and you just get like a warm feeling, you know? And that doesn’t really happen, that doesn’t really happen with—  

Tonne Goodman 

Anything. 

Richard Sinnott

With other—yeah. 

Tonne Goodman

No, it doesn’t. It really doesn’t.

Richard Sinnott

Yeah. 

Fabien Baron 

I think we were all like, so taken by the moment and like the, the work we were supposed to do there, I think like we just like lived the moment, did work so hard and just enjoyed it for what it was and—

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Fabien Baron

Not even realizing really what we were doing, to be honest. I don’t think we were, I think we were doing a good job and we, we were thinking we were doing a decent job, but we didn’t think that Bazaar would become this—such an important thing. 

Tonne Goodman

You know the thing, the other thing was that Liz really encouraged everybody to do what they wanted to do. I mean, the freedom of expression—

Fabien Baron

Yeah. 

Tonne Goodman

—that Liz gave all of us was really remarkable. 

Richard Sinnott

Mmm. 

Tonne Goodman

—and you have to remember at that time, we were the producers. We didn’t have any outside help. You know, if I decided I wanted to shoot on an aircraft carrier, well, you know, I had to find the air—you know, I had to produce the entire shoot, the way we all did. And I think that enabling us to do exactly what we were compelled to do emotionally or from our lives or from whatever was uh, happening to us and translating into, to our work, was something that Liz really encouraged.

Cynthia True

I’m sure that allows you to be extremely present. Because Paul, I know when I asked you about, did you have a sense that you were in a moment, I remember you said we were just working, we didn’t have a sense that we were changing anything. 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. 

Cynthia True

And Fabien is, that’s how you feel also? 

Fabien Baron

Oh, totally. I feel totally the same. I feel like I was there and I was just like, work, work, work, work, work. Do the thing, do the thing, do the thing. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

And just like move on. And just, I think we really lived the moment. 

Paul Cavaco 

Yeah. 

Fabien Baron

Without realizing really what it was, a part that, you know, like, we were so into every single moment of what we were doing. Really pouring everything you have in you to do it the right way. Of course there were tensions sometimes, but at the end you felt like you were part of a family. 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. Remember at the Prada shop when my credit card was declined? 

[laughter]

Richard Sinnott

And you and uh, ‘cause  you would take me around in your car with your driver, I forget what his name was, Julio or something, but at the Prada shop—

Fabien Baron

Yes, exactly. 

Richard Sinnott

Yeah. I was denied and you just stepped right up and paid for it for me. And I remember it was about a month of my rent, and I remember giving you a check at some point years later, but you never cashed the check. 

Cynthia True

Wow. You owe him so much money. 

Tonne Goodman

Mmm. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah, you, you do! That nine thousand. 

Richard Sinnott

Nine thousand and nine hundred dollars. 

Cynthia True

Nine thousand for Lucky Cheng’s and another nine hundred at Prada? 

Richard Sinnott

Uh huh.

Cynthia True

[laughs] Sometimes when you’re working on a project, even though you’re very in it, you can sense the wind at your back. You know: “This is gonna actually be something.” Did you have a sense of that? 

Paul Cavaco

When the first issue came out, one of the comments to me was, “You’re getting there.” 

Tonne Goodman

Who said that? Who said that? 

Cynthia True

Yeah. Who said that? 

Paul Cavaco

It was [BLEEP.] 

Richard Sinnott

Ugh.

Tonne Goodman

What?

[laughter] 

Tonne Goodman

[laughing] One to talk, one to talk….

Paul Cavaco

But I think that’s the thing ‘cause  who do you talk to? Most of our circle is people in the fashion industry—not usually the most generous to give you a compliment about things. You know, maybe they say something like, “I like your story,” or da da da. But it was so new looking that I’m not sure people actually knew exactly what they were looking at, a lot of people, ‘cause  they were expecting, you know, Vogue Light. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

So when they saw this thing and, you know, I have to give it up to Fabien. If it wasn’t for Fabien, visually the way the magazine looked, you know, it would’ve been really nice pictures, but it looked like something different.

Fabien Baron

C’mon guys. I mean, you brought amazing—what was great is we had really good photographers and they were really willing, and you guys did amazing stories. 

Tonne Goodman

But Fabien, you, you married typography with the whole thing. That was so much part of the, the magazine and that was all you. All of it. 

Paul Cavaco

And you didn’t ruin the pictures. Like Vogue, you know, they were putting type on pictures ‘cause you know, but Fabien used handwriting, he used, you know, everything. It made the magazine exciting. So I think initially we didn’t know, because—for me at least, ‘cause I mean, comments were made like that to me, like, you know, and people would say, “What’s going on with Linda’s head?”

They weren’t saying that it was the A was falling in her hand. They thought she had a headache. 

Cynthia True

Wow. 

Paul Cavaco 

So people were not especially kind initially—

Richard Sinnott

Wow. 

Paul Cavaco

—to me at least. 

Cynthia True

Right. So you weren’t on the receiving end of gushing or— 

Paul Cavaco

Eventually, yes. 

Cynthia True

Yes. 

Paul Cavaco 

You know what I mean? 

Cynthia True

Yeah, 

Paul Cavaco 

Eventually. But I think initially I would say you weren’t. 

Fabien Baron

You know, when CNN did a portion on magazine covers throughout the, the history of magazine covers, that Bazaar cover is one of them.

Cynthia True

Oh, of course. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Cynthia True

It’s amazing, 

Fabien Baron

You know, um, Annie Leibowitz, the Beatles and like, you know, uh—

Richard Sinnott

Iconic. 

Fabien Baron 

—things like that. 

Cynthia True

Fabien, you had obviously done Italian Vogue, you had done Madonna’s Sex book. You were, you know, a design veteran, very well known, of course. Was it exciting for you to see the Bazaar cover on the side of a bus, or were you sort of inured at that point?

Fabien Baron

YEAH!

[laughter]

Fabien Baron

I think, like I said, like I think like every one of us was so excited to have the possibility in America to work at a magazine the same way you would work at a magazine in Europe. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Richard Sinnott

Yeah.

Fabien Baron 

With that freedom of expression. 

Paul Cavaco

You were initially the cheerleader—

Tonne Goodman 

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

—that got us to go to do stuff. It was Fabien saying to Liz, “Maybe we should have this, maybe we should have this person. Da da da.” So it was—I, I think we all just wanted it to be great. I mean, even though people made fun of the cover to me, I mean, I still love the cover. I still loved what we did, so it didn’t really matter. 

Tonne Goodman 

Oh, it was amazing.

Cynthia True

I can’t imagine what they would make fun of. Wow. 

Tonne Goodman 

What would they make—no, what? 

Dennis Golonka

No. It was brilliant. You guys, you know what stands out to me about every one of you in all the interviews? You are all so modest and so giving of credit to each other, and that is very rare in this business, and it comes across loud and clear.

Fabien Baron

You know what, Dennis, to be honest, I haven’t worked in the magazine where I felt the team—because it was a big magazine, it was a big team where everybody felt part of that team. 

Dennis Golonka 

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

And like I said, that family vibe was there. 

Dennis Golonka 

Yeah. 

Fabien Baron

We had conflicts, we had fights. I had fights with Tonne, I had fights with Paul, Paul had fights with me. You know, like we had, we had moments. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

But deep down we really loved each other. In fact, we can be in the same room and really enjoy each other. And I think we really wanted to do something great and I think now when you look back, you, you say like, Wow, that was really a special moment. 

Richard Sinnott

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

You know?

Tonne Goodman 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

It was, I think we were like very compassionate towards one another. I think we were very generous towards one another. 

Tonne Goodman 

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

And you know, to be honest, I give all the credits to Liz to have accepted this team to be the way it was and letting the people, like Tonne mentioned, letting the, the best of the people shine.

Richard Sinnott

Mm-hmm. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

Well, I think the fact that we were all allowed to go from department to department, I could go in the art department, you could come into the fashion department, Tonne could go in—we could go everywhere and talk to each other and be welcomed. So you had a say in everything. You may not win, you know what I mean? I could go into the art department and say, “Fabien...blah blah blah…the layout.” And he would say, “Well, I think it’s better that—” And you were heard at least. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

And I think—

Fabien Baron

Yeah, of course, we could discuss everything. 

Paul Cavaco

And I think that permission to speak, to be part of the magazine as a whole thing—not just your little job—made a difference.

Fabien Baron

You cannot think only about yourself and the way you do your own work because you don’t grow. To have you guys coming and telling me this, this, this, you know, I’ve learned so much myself, I feel. I’ve learned things and I changed my way of doing things and of even doing some layouts, I changed entirely because I believe like you don’t know everything. And the beauty of it is at the end, I really feel that this magazine was a teamwork. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Fabien Baron

It was not like this person versus that person, or this person is strong here and not strong there. I felt like it was really a teamwork, like everybody had a say, like you said. 

Tonne Goodman

Well, one of the interesting things that was important was Paul’s insistence that there never be a credit as to who the editor was on a story. Do you remember? That was the first thing. 

Fabien Baron 

Oh, that’s right. 

Tonne Goodman

Right? You never knew who was responsible for the story, so— 

Fabien Baron

Because he didn’t want to hear anyone telling him about the cover anymore. 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

The reason I said it to Liz—’cause we were gonna have it. The thing to know is the reason that stylists and editors have credits on their stories is due to Kezia Keeble, who was my ex-wife and partner, and Bryan Bantry, who fought for it because they never had it before. And little by little, we start to get it and eventually people start to put it on. But when I got to Bazaar, I thought people will look at the magazine in pieces then. They’ll go, “Oh, like Tonne’s story is this, Paul’s story’s that,” you know, they start to take it apart and it would stop feeling cohesive. 

Tonne Goodman

But not, not only that, but competitive. Because editors in general are pitted against one another. That’s one of the, you know, MO’s of magazine life. 

Paul Cavaco

Yeah. 

Tonne Goodman

And that eliminated that.

Richard Sinnott

And you could feel it in the office.

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. 

Richard Sinnott

I mean, you could just feel that camaraderie. 

Dennis Golonka 

We are in an age now where when people aren’t credited, for example, when we’re Instagramming things and we don’t have the stylist from Bazaar back in the Nineties because we don’t know who styled what, people come at us. 

Tonne Goodman

Really? 

Dennis Golonka 

And I get it. Of course, you wanna be credited.

Tonne Goodman

Well, now you do because now that’s what it’s all about, right? 

Dennis Golonka 

Right. Right. 

Cynthia True

Tonne and Paul famously, co-fashion directors, many people, including Linda Evangelista, said to us that was unheard of, you could not do that today. “But those two, they were Team Liz.” And you’ve also, of course, were known as being best friends. My question is, did you know each other very well before Bazaar, or was it the Bazaar experience that, like, cemented your friendship? 

Paul Cavaco

We knew each other. I think it cemented our relationship. 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah, I agree. 

Paul Cavaco

I think we knew each other well enough to have, you know, good feelings about each other. 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

You know, like I knew that Tonne wasn’t gonna come at me. I knew she wasn’t gonna steal something off my rack. I knew she was integrous as a human. 

Tonne Goodman

Well, but the other thing, Paul, is that I have always followed in your footsteps. I was coming from Calvin Klein. And my sensibility was so close to Calvin’s sensibility that I was kind of locked into this perfect world for a long time working with him. And then when I went into Harper’s Bazaar, all of a sudden that was absolutely exploded. I mean, I could work with different designers, with different, you know—the whole thing exploded the same time that I got married and had two children in three years. So it was a busy time. And I have to say, Paul, [laughs] that, that—and you moved into my office with me—the better office, of course, the corner office. And you had a sympathetic pregnancy a lot of the time that I was pregnant. Do you remember? You did gain a substantial amount of weight! 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

I used it as my excuse. When Tonne got pregnant, I had quit—just quit smoking, and I wish I could say it was because I was kind and didn’t wanna smoke in the presence of a pregnant woman, but it just happened that I could smoking then. 

[laughter]

Paul Cavaco

And Tonne would turn to me—well, I would turn to Tonne ‘cause I was always hungry, obviously, cause  I wasn’t smoking and I didn’t know what to do, you know, ‘cause it is an oral fixation so I needed something to do. 

Tonne Goodman

[clears throat]

Richard Sinnott

[clears throat]

Paul Cavaco

And around Tonne, you can’t chew gum because that’s not what people of any—

Tonne Goodman

No, you can’t. 

Cynthia True

[laughs] 

Paul Cavaco

It’s just you don’t do that. 

Tonne Goodman

Bad comportment.

Cynthia True

I agree.

Paul Cavaco

So I would say to her, “Don’t you think it’s time to eat?” It’d be maybe 11:30 or something, she’d go, “Yes. And don’t you want like a peanut butter—" We would have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. 

Tonne Goodman

And jelly sandwich. 

Paul Cavaco

And then I would say, “Don’t you think we have to wash this down with a vanilla milkshake?”

[laughter]

Dennis Golonka 

[laughing] Yes.

Paul Cavaco

And so then we’d order, it would come up. Tonne would have half the sandwich and half of her milkshake, and I would eat the rest of it. I gained more weight than Tonne did. 

Tonne Goodman

It’s absolutely true. 

Paul Cavaco

She gained 20 pounds—how many pounds did you gain? 

Tonne Goodman

I gained, I think, like 15, you know. 

Paul Cavaco

I gained 50. 

[laughter] 

Cynthia True

And you told us, Paul, that that was part of the reason that you were in a trench coat for Angels. Although Tonne took exception to that statement. 

Dennis Golonka

Cynthia’s talking about the 1993 Angels shoot Tonne did with Peter Lindbergh and Amber Valletta, in which Paul made a special appearance as a troubled man walking through New York City at dawn.

Tonne Goodman

That was not the reason, Paul. The reason was because you— 

Paul Cavaco

Well, the reason I chose it—so they choose me to do this—

Tonne Goodman

[laughing] Oh god. 

Paul Cavaco

I am—I mean, I am, you know, very, very short. As we all know.

Richard Sinnott

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

But I was very rotund. And what was I gonna wear? So they had an Armani coat. So the Armani coat was for a model, ‘cause  it was, you know, a sample. So the coat is practically hitting the ground, if you notice. It’s really long on me. 

Tonne Goodman

Very chic. 

Paul Cavaco

But I’m normally a 34 suit. This was a size 40. So the shoulder is out to here, but I’m filling the whole thing out in the round. 

[laughter] 

Cynthia True

Oh my gosh. 

Paul Cavaco

And so it was, yeah, I mean, it was perfect for what we were doing.

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

It was chosen because it was—you know, it wasn’t like I said, “You have to give me this coat.” Tonne found the coat. I put it on. 

Cynthia True

Right. 

Paul Cavaco

And because I was chubby, it fit me. 

[laughter]

Dennis Golonka

Hey, here’s an off-the-cuff question. Who remembers what our receptionist’s name was? 

Richard Sinnott

Yvette Starr with two r’s!  

Fabien Baron

Oh my God. That’s so good. 

Dennis Golonka

She was there the whole time we were all there. 

Richard Sinnott

“Your food is here and the phones are dead!” Remember that? Running through the corridors. 

Tonne Goodman 

What did she say?

Richard Sinnott

“Your food is here and the phones are dead!”

[laughter] 

Paul Cavaco

The thing that was interesting about Yvette that she told me, she told me that every time the photographers would come in to meet with Liz or Fabien or one of us, they would greet her by her name. And she said in all the years she had worked there that nobody had ever greeted her by her name except for when we were all there, including the photographers. 

Dennis Golonka

Wow. I love that. 

Fabien Baron

We were working with nice people. 

Richard Sinnott

It was the kind of atmosphere where you actually loved going into the office because it was gonna be the most fun you were gonna have that day. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah. 

Tonne Goodman 

Yeah. Totally. Totally. 

Richard Sinnott

It really, truly was. 

Dennis Golonka

You were with your friends. 

Cynthia True

Richard, you are the only one in this room—

Richard Sinnott

Mm-hmm. 

Cynthia True

—who was there before Liz

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Cynthia True

—and then after Liz. So you were really 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Cynthia True

—there for three eras of the magazine. 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Cynthia True

Talk about the change because you were an assistant 

Richard Sinnott

Yes.

Cynthia True

At the old Bazaar. So you were still a kid.

Richard Sinnott

When Liz came in, I was in my, uh, probably late twenties. Yeah. You know, it was really something, and if I can put it into words, it was—you know, when they all came in, it seemed intense, but what you saw from where I sat was the top brass of anyone that worked in fashion, you guys particularly. So it was a combination of a little intimidation—um, but that kind of wore off really quickly. It was kind of like a finishing school in a way for fashion. I learned so many things that I never knew that I should know, but it also felt, um, after that Linda with a headache cover, [laughter] um, it’s funny because, you know, my life completely changed when you guys came. Not just professionally, but socially. Suddenly, since you guys were there, and Bazaar was now Bazaar, I was invited to everything. You know, the minute I said, “Oh, I work at Harper’s Bazaar” like the rope would drop, you know? And I was like in my twenties. And it was incredible. You know, the power of you guys in the business and I took advantage of it fully. You know: “This is for Tonne, this is for Paul.” 

[laughter]

Richard Sinnott

“Tonne wants those. Paul wants those,” and they would move mountains for these people! It was a complete one-eighty on every level, socially, professionally, and personally. I mean, I didn’t know what top-stitch on a belt was until I worked for Tonne, you know? There were these things that they were so particular and I had never really gone down in the weeds, um, with such detail as an accessories assistance as to what I needed!

[laughter] 

Richard Sinnott

And, um, and I was like, Holy shit! This woman thinks the top stitch is two millimeters too wide!

Tonne Goodman 

[laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

What the heck? So it’s, it was stuff like that and I just, I just took it all in and made it happen.

Tonne Goodman 

But don’t forget that was Diana Vreeland. 

Richard Sinnott

Well, yeah. 

Dennis Golonka

Diana Vreeland, who left Harper’s Bazaar in 1962 to be editor-in-chief of Vogue, mentored Tonne in the Seventies. She hired her as a fit model at Vogue. Later, Tonne worked with her on several exhibits at the Costume Institute. 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah, no, that was Diana Vreeland training. And I remember at one point, Richard, there was one of the hat designers—do you remember this? 

Richard Sinnott

Yes. 

Tonne Goodman

Who did not know what a tricorn was. 

Richard Sinnott

Yes! 

Tonne Goodman

And I was appalled. 

Richard Sinnott

 [laughing] Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. 

Tonne Goodman

I just, I just thought, how can you be [laughs] a designer of hats and not know what a tricorn is?

Dennis Golonka

What is a tricorn? 

Tonne Goodman

A tricorn is the, is the three-pointed hat. Tri. Corn.

Dennis Golonka

Of course, I knew that! Just for our listeners. 

[laughter] 

Tonne Goodman

But we also were very strict, Paul, do you remember? Because we did have, you know, you were not allowed to wear open-toe shoes at all in the office during the summer. That was unacceptable. Remember? We had a dress code—

Paul Cavaco

Of sorts. 

Tonne Goodman

It was—no of sorts. Because it just was not appropriate to wear open-toed sandals to a workplace. You know, period, the end. 

Richard Sinnott

There were a lot of things like that that, you know, looking back made total sense and it’s like Miss Porter’s for fashion, you know, it’s the Bible. You know, what you guys wanted, what you said, what you felt, um, it was like the golden rule. You guys raised the bar so high. You know, you guys had such standards and—what’s that thing…ethics? You guys had—

Paul Cavaco

You wouldn’t know.

Richard Sinnott

[laughs] You know, and it was fun, you know, like no one, I remember being in Paris and you know, it was a lot of fun. I’d get to go to every party and like the next morning, or actually later that night, um, I’d miss a couple of morning shows. 

[laughter]

Richard Sinnott

You know, I just didn’t make it. And I remember one of the editors would get up and say, “Where’s Richard Sinnott?” My seat would be empty, and Liz would look and say, “Oh, as long as he’s out having fun!”  And I had been at a Gaultier party till like five that morning. 

Cynthia True

Doing your job. 

Richard Sinnott

Doing my job! And, um, yes. And— 

Cynthia True

But it is part of the job, in fact. 

Richard Sinnott

It was, yeah, uh, it truly was, you know, because that’s that’s

Paul Cavaco

[laughs] I’m glad, I’m glad you’re pushing that narrative. 

Cynthia True

Paul’s not having it! [laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

Especially because I was— 

Paul Cavaco

No, I think it’s part of the job. I think then there were things—you know, what do they call it?—the outer perimeter of the job. 

Richard Sinnott

Yeah. 

Cynthia True

So to speak, yeah. I remember, Paul, you telling us something really funny—that you had a child, so you weren’t really going out as much as everybody, and that you would sit and watch as Richard made reservations in your name, 

Richard Sinnott

[laughs] 

Cynthia True

and he was like, “I never thought it was gonna work, but it would work!”

Richard Sinnott

It does!

Cynthia True

“I’d say it’s Paul Cavaco from Harper’s Bazaar” and he’d get that table at Balthazar. 

Richard Sinnott

“Table for six!” 

Paul Cavaco

The thing is, I’ve never done that. 

Cynthia True

You’ve never used your own name? 

Paul Cavaco

I’ve never gotten anything from it. 

Richard Sinnott

Oh, I did it to all you guys!

Dennis Golonka

Well, you know, Richard likes to say that when he was at Bazaar, he lived like a Kardashian on forty-five thousand a year.

Richard Sinnott

That’s true. I, I didn’t know what budget was. I mean, a rent-a-car maybe, but there was no budget, Tonne, remem—at least as far as I—

Paul Cavaco

Well, we didn’t have to do the—you know, when I’ve been other magazines, I had to work on the budget. 

Tonne Goodman

Right. 

Paul Cavaco 

And keep it at a certain number. We didn’t have that, but I don’t think we were very extravagant. Although we probably were, you know, I mean—

Cynthia True

It was, it was just a more extravagant world. I don’t think—you know.

Paul Cavaco

Well, no, I think that, you know, we produced like the, you know—how did we get, you know, the, you know, Tonne got a—whatever it was called, that boat, that giant boat that you did the shoot on. 

Tonne Goodman

Aircraft carrier. 

[laughter]

Tonne Goodman

Aircraft Carrier. 

[laughter] 

Fabien Baron

No, to be honest, compared to the other magazines we were, we were good.

Paul Cavaco

That’s what I think too. Yeah. 

Fabien Baron

We almost behaved like a new European magazine. Sometimes.

Dennis Golonka

As we come to a close, could you talk about your most vivid memory of Liz? Tonne? Do you wanna start? 

Tonne Goodman

I was awed.  I really was awed by Liz. And then, you know, Liz did have, you know, she got cancer and our whole world got, you know, very, very changed by that reality within the workplace. There was a lot going on. And then I got cancer also, so

Cynthia True

Oh my goodness. 

Tonne Goodman

It was like, it was pretty wild. 

Cynthia True

While you were at Harper’s Bazaar, Tonne? 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. I did. You know, Liz’s compassion and her humanity throughout all of this, the fact that she was present, you know, throughout it all, she really was. She was never absent in our existence there. Was she ever? Never. 

Paul Cavaco

Never. Never. 

Cynthia True

Richard, what about you? What’s your most vivid memory of Liz? 

Richard Sinnott

Well, um, they’re mostly about her sense of humor, actually. And um, her practical jokes that she would play on me. 

Tonne Goodman

Name one. Name a good one. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah. 

Richard Sinnott

Oh gosh. All right. Well, I don’t know if—you might wanna edit this, but there was this woman [BLEEP] that worked in [BLEEP], and I kind of wasn’t a fan ‘cause she would steal people’s seats and get all dressed up and try to get into the shows. Anyway, I would call her [BLEEP] and 

Tonne Goodman

[laughs] I didn’t know that!

Richard Sinnott

Yes, I did. 

Tonne Goodman

Ah. 

Fabien Baron

Oh my god! 

Cynthia True

[laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

So it was just kind of like an inter-office, you know, private little joke. But one day, I think I was doing a still-life shoot or something and, and the phone rings and I’m like, “Hello?” And she says, “Hello. It’s [BLEEP].” 

Dennis Golonka

It was the show-crashing seat-stealing colleague using her extremely offensive nickname to announce herself.

Richard Sinnott

And my heart stopped.

[laughter]

Richard Sinnott

Because I thought, holy shite, she found out. 

Paul Cavaco

[laughs]

Richard Sinnott

And then after a little bit of laughing, it was Liz calling me to prank phone-call me. 

Paul Cavaco

But think about the fact that this was our editor-in-chief—knew all of our names, would call you direct, like she’s calling Richard directly and pranking him. 

Tonne Goodman 

Mmm-hmm. 

Paul Cavaco

There was something very democratic about it. 

Richard Sinnott

I, I don’t remember a time where I talked to Liz about a bag or a shoe. It was more just about, you know, who was doing what, 

Paul Cavaco

[laughs]

Richard Sinnott

and, uh, what I saw in like dark rooms in Paris and things like that, 

Cynthia True

[laughs]

Tonne Goodman

Mmm-hmm. 

Richard Sinnott

you know, and she just gobbled it up.

Tonne Goodman

Mmm-hmm. [laughs] 

Richard Sinnott

You know what I mean? She loved it. And when she was sick and she missed the shows, I would end up, what do you call it, drunk-dialing her, uh, from a restaurant in Paris and just breaking it all down. And she just loved it, you know? 

Dennis Golonka

What about you, Paul? 

Paul Cavaco

At that point, my daughter was going to school by herself. I think she was 15 when I started working at Bazaar. So I would get up with her, you know, you go to school early, so I would be early and Liz would be early. So we’d sit in her office, I’d come in with a cup of coffee and we would smoke cigarettes. And that’s all we did. We just, we talked about our children, sometimes the shoots. It could be anything. 

Dennis Golonka

What about you, Fab? What’s your most vivid memory? 

Fabien Baron

The first time I met Liz at the restaurant, when we were deciding, you know, what was Bazaar. What, uh, I remember vividly is that we stayed about two hours for lunch and we talked about the magazine probably the last five minutes. Basically, we spent the entire lunch, talking about life, talking about children, talking about New York, London, the life here, where she’s gonna live.  Everything but talk about Bazaar. And at the end she told me, “Oh, what’s your idea of Bazaar?” And I said, “Well, what’s yours?” And she told me, “I wanna do the best magazine in the world.”  “Well, that sounds like something I want to do too.” But that was it. She was so generous and so beautiful. You understood very clearly ‘cause  she was diagnosed with cancer quite rapidly. You knew pretty much that what you were doing was just a moment and you had to grab it and to live it fully because you knew it was not going to last. When she passed away, my decision was made that I would not touch another picture without her being around. So I resigned. But you know, like, um, all the time in between those two experiences, beginning and end, it was just pure joy and happiness. And good work. 

Dennis Golonka

One of my most vivid memories of Liz is about how expressive she was. She had all these Liz words she used when she loved something. Heaven, genius, divine.

Fabien Baron

These words were also very much Paul Cavaco, to be honest. 

Dennis Golonka

Yes, we would all use them. My favorite was “heaven.” 

Cynthia True

That’s what I remember. Everything was heaven. 

Fabien Baron

You know what? We were all in heaven. It was fantastic to be at Bazaar and to be with Liz. She was fucking brilliant and it was the best time. The best time.

Dennis Golonka

It was. 

Richard Sinnott

Yeah, it was. 

Dennis Golonka

Thank you. 

Cynthia True

It’s been a dream to have all of you in the room together. We feel really privileged. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah.

Tonne Goodman 

It’s been really fun for me. And also, Fab, to see you. 

Fabien Baron

Same here, Tonne. 

Tonne Goodman 

Really, I haven’t seen you in a long time. 

Fabien Baron

And you, Richard. Really.

Richard Sinnott

Oh, it just feels so natural to be

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. 

Richard Sinnott

in this group of people. It feels so good. The love I have for all of you and the respect is incomparable. You know, I’ve never had this at any job. It didn’t feel like a job. It just felt like a lifestyle. 

Paul Cavaco

It was, you’re right. 

Richard Sinnott

You know? It really did. 

Tonne Goodman

Mm-hmm.

Richard Sinnott

And it was Camelot, you know? 

Fabien Baron

 I feel the same. I feel the same. 

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. 

Fabien Baron

You guys are family really.

Tonne Goodman

It was the best of the best. 

Richard Sinnott

Yeah. Yeah.

Tonne Goodman

It was the best of the best. 

Richard Sinnott

Yeah. 

Dennis Golonka

Yeah.

Tonne Goodman

Yeah. 

Cynthia True

Well, thank you very, very much and, Paul, especially to you for getting up at five am and Fabien, thank you for staying late with us. 

Paul Cavaco

Thank you. I wouldn’t have missed this. I would not have missed this. 

Cynthia True

Thank you. 

Dennis Golonka

Thank you guys. Have a great day. 

Fabien Baron

Thank you so much. 

Richard Sinnott

Fabien, I’ve, I’ve got the check in the mail. 

Fabien Baron

Don’t send it because I might cash it. 

[laughter]

Richard Sinnott

Ohhhhhh. I love you. 

Cynthia True

Bye guys. 

Dennis Golonka

Bye guys. 

All

Bye. Bye guys. Bye. 

Dennis Golonka

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate and review. This was our final full episode, but please stay tuned for more special bonus content. Also, please be on the lookout for our YouTube version, coming soon. 

Cynthia True

Blow-Up is independently produced and ad-free. If you’d like to support us, please visit our Buy Me a Coffee page. The link is in our show notes. Blow Up is hosted and produced by Dennis Golonka and me, Cynthia True. It was written and edited by me, Cynthia True. Original theme song is by Stephen Phillips. Sound and music editing Tiger Lily Biskup. Sound design and mix, Erik Wiese. The episode was recorded at Voice Trax West, the Cutting Room and Digital Arts New York. Special thanks to Clay Morrow and Matthew Saver.  I’d like to dedicate my work on this podcast to my stepfather, Robert Young, who made everything possible for me. He was the most elegant person I ever knew.