Snip & Sip Podcast
Welcome to Snip and Sip, the podcast where hairdressers and industry professionals come together for unfiltered hair talk!
Snip & Sip Podcast
Breaking the Salon Cycle: Can Apprenticeships Save the Industry?
Ever wondered why some hairdressing apprentices disappear as quickly as they arrive? Join us as Gabby and Danielle along with Emma from Abbey Hill Collective, Blair from Pura Holistic, and Jade from Prive, uncover the hilariously unpredictable world of hairdressing apprenticeships. With stories ranging from wild disappearances to candidates clueless about salon life, the laughs are plentiful, but there’s a serious undertone highlighting the need for finding the perfect salon-apprentice match.
As we navigate the serious side of declining apprenticeship rates, particularly in Australia, the cultural push for university education over trades is scrutinized. We explore how societal shifts towards higher pay and better work-life balance, alongside the rise of salon suites, are reshaping the landscape. The conversation touches on the allure of new vocational courses like makeup and lash artistry that are pulling potential candidates away from traditional apprenticeships, challenging the industry's future.
Finally, the changing mindset in hairdressing comes into focus, advocating for a more hands-on, inclusive approach to training. By valuing apprentices as key team members, we emphasize the benefits of hiring mature-aged individuals for their rich work ethic and diverse perspectives. Strategies for attracting younger generations, such as school collaborations and creating fun, educational environments, round out our discussion. This episode is a celebration of the passion and potential apprentices bring to the industry, and a call to adapt and thrive together.
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Find our guests:
Jade Crosland from Prive Hair Organics
Blair Lewis from Pura Holistic Studio
Emma Mcglone from Abbey Hill Collective
Welcome to Snip and Sip unfiltered hair chat for the other 95%.
Speaker 2:What does that mean, Gabby? The other 95% means that we are for everyone. We want to hear everyone's perspectives in hairdressing, not just those super popular, massively famous hairdressers or those really great award winners. We think that everyone is so valuable to the industry and we would love to hear from you all.
Speaker 1:So today we'll be covering apprenticeships, and who have we got to help us with that today?
Speaker 2:Today we have the incredible Emma from the Abbey Hill Collective in Albury-Wodonga, we've got Blair from Pura Holistic in Canberra and we've got Jade from Preve in Melbourne. Thanks, we've got Blair from Pure Holistic in Canberra and we've got Jade from Preve in Melbourne. Thanks, guys, thanks, thank you. So, as we said, today we're going to be talking about apprenticeships and I thought we would begin by just having a little bit of a little chat about what is the craziest thing that you guys have experienced about apprentices, in your apprenticeships or as an apprentice in the salon. Jade Want to start with me?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, there's so many. I'm just trying to think like crazy stuff when I was an apprentice, but crazy stuff in Australia and it's got to be not too X-rated. By the way, I can't think of the best example. No, there was an awesome girl that came in. We interviewed her. You know, she was so enthusiastic. She'd expressed that she was really passionate about, um, blow drying. She was second year so I was like do you know what? If you feel comfortable, would you like to blow dry my hair, literally just to give her the. And she was like, yep, I will. She was amazing. I was like this girl's brilliant.
Speaker 3:Anyway, we got her cb and because she came into the salon and like applied, and then we did a reference and they were like, yeah, really nice, but a bit unstable. And I was like, really, I was like I've just spoke to her, she's so nice. Anyway, they said, yeah, like she's awesome, like slayed it, and then two days later just disappeared off the face of the earth, hadn't been paid left. All that stuff in the salon was like the weirdest thing ever and we never heard from her. And I was like right, okay, that doesn't, that doesn't align, I'm gonna go with what I think, um, sure enough, the same thing happened. Right, I'm not joking, her north face jacket is still in the salon to this day. Um, yeah, it was the weirdest thing, like. And we were fully booked and we were like thank god, we got this person just when we need them in December. And then Friday morning and the girls were like you don't reckon she's done that thing? And I was like, nah, I was like she wouldn't, she'd only been with us two days.
Speaker 2:Yep, so did she ever get paid?
Speaker 3:I think we did. Yeah, we did do the right. No, eventually we got hold of her and she was like oh yeah, something really awful happened and I just couldn't come and I was like, but you kind of just like, didn't like what, like I don't know, it's just the weirdest thing. So we were like, yeah, cool, whatever on your way, yeah you can't just not come to work.
Speaker 3:No, it was the most honestly. I was just like no, not after two days, and it was legitimately what the reference had wow, yeah, that's weird hectic, yeah, I mean but, she was, so she's like I'm so passionate about being here.
Speaker 2:It's just like I had a really similar experience happen in our salon. Um and she left. Um, she literally just walked off the face of the earth and we never heard from her again. We were just like that is just so weird. Oh well, I kid you not. Two years later she calls. She said I am so sorry about doing that. I was in a wild time. And my boss said you know what? That is actually so fine and I really love your being able to come back and say that.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to rehire you, so we rehire her and you'll never guess what she does. She left again. Yeah, just completely, just stops coming to work. Just completely stopped coming to work weird yeah so weird? Yeah, yeah, what about you, blair? I?
Speaker 5:have people not coming to work? Well, I have some wild ones, but we won't share but, I, think like a few. Interestingly enough, you know, we um I don't know if anyone else does apprentices like trial, like see how they feel, and not just for them but for yeah, you know, for like for us not just for us but for them as well, because sometimes people come in they don't really know what hairdressing is and you know they get a feel for it.
Speaker 5:But, honestly, within the space of two weeks, because we were doing a few apprentice trials more probably 80 percent of them like half an hour to an hour in, oh, one of them was so when can I sit down? Because my legs are hurting or so I've got a headache. Do I get to go home? Now, like these are like, honestly, trials, and I was like, yes, you get to go home Forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and never come back. We actually had an apprentice once and we'd walked into the back room and she was just standing there looking at the dishes like just staring at these dry like dishes on a dish rack and our boss said what are you doing? She goes, I'm just waiting for the dishes to dry. She was just standing there waiting. Oh gosh.
Speaker 5:Gabby, actually that reminds me. I think we had a similar story we one of the ones we had on um well, she actually wasn't on trial, she was there for a few days. The girls watched it just to see if she could get it Opens. The dishwasher tries to put the biggest thing in the top, it wasn't closed. So then she tries to move it around, can't get it to close in the top tray. And they just watched it for a bit and someone ended up saying I think you know, maybe if you put it in the bottom tray where it's bigger, it might fit. Oh, I didn't think of that. She says, and then we went out the back in the washing. There was bubbles out the whole back. Now we use soap nuts in our thing and apparently there was only soap nuts in there, but I swear there was just. The whole laundry was full of bubbles it was the same it's the responses that are hilarious.
Speaker 3:We had one recently and everything I said I was like you know the lateness it's really I don't want to have to say, and she go, oh beautiful. I was like okay, cool. And then, like anything ever, said, I'm like you know, we just want to have to have a chat about appearance and you know, we did discuss the uniform and it's really important as a brand. Oh beautiful, I'm like, so is that an? I understand, or I don't give a sh1t, I don't know. Like that was the response to everything I said so funny.
Speaker 4:What about you, em? That just reminded me of a story just before about you having a headache. Can I go home?
Speaker 4:When I was in my first year of my apprenticeship, 2009, back in the old pandemic of swine flu, oh yeah, I had gone out on the Sunday night on the Saturday night, walked home without any shoes on middle of July, it was absolutely freezing. Woke up the next day and I was like, don't feel great, but, you know, self-inflicted, yeah, yeah, you know, didn't cover my kidneys. And so I went to work on the Monday and I was like gosh, you know, they really do say like hangovers get worse. I was 19 and, um, yep, just feeling horrible. We were closed on Tuesdays. Um, so worked the whole Monday. We closed on Tuesdays. I was at my Nana's house for dinner. I was on the couch like shivering, ridiculously high temperature.
Speaker 4:Went to work on Wednesday. My mum was like, oh, and my mum and dad have always been those kind of like just go to work, go to school, go to work, you know. And school, go to work, you know. And so, yeah, went to work, couldn't let anyone down. I was, you know, infesting the population with swine flu, but I am. So I went to work on the Wednesday.
Speaker 4:On the Wednesday night I think, we're working till nine. I said to my manager at 730, can I please go home now? Like'm really really starting to feel quite ill. And I said but I'll come in an hour and a half early tomorrow to make up the time difference. Um, and then mum came to wake me up for work and she was like she works at the hospital. She said you're coming to work with me now or I'm calling ambulance? And I was like no, I have to go to work. I have to go to work. And I'm like like trying to crawl out of bed to go to work, get to the triage and I have, you know, like a 140 heart rate, like resting heart rate and stuff, and I ended up being in hospital for three days on a drip.
Speaker 4:I had. I thought we did it in the good old days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 4:Do you want to go? Um, we did it in the good old days, yeah, I know, and I think, right, yeah, and I think even then, um like I couldn't even stand up to brush my teeth like I was, so I was so exhausted because I had, I had swine flu. And um, my boss calls me 10 days later and she's like so when are you coming back? We've got training, like this week, and I was like, okay, came back.
Speaker 4:Day one I my immune system was shot. Day one I had, um, I picked up a like a tummy bug, and I was so ill all that night back in hospital till five o'clock in the morning. Um went to work the next day and mum called the salon at lunchtime and she goes oh, just like wanting to see how em is. You know, we had her in the hospital till five o'clock in the morning. My boss was like, yeah, she's fine and yeah, you, just you, just you just went to work. I look at covid now, though, and I'm like, oh my god, but I used to work all the time with laryngitis, I had absolutely no voice.
Speaker 2:But no joke, no voice and I was still walking around the salon just like a gremlin just nods to everything I was trying to talk, it was actually worse.
Speaker 2:Um, well, today we're going to be talking about a decline in apprenticeships and hearing these, like hearing these stories, honestly, to me there is no wonder. Like actually there is no wonder, because this is what people hear about apprenticeships and you hear I have to go, you have to go to work, even if you have swine flu, or sometimes I feel like we expect that because we think I went to work when I had swine flu. You've only got COVID, you'll be fine, come on in. Um, well, I mean, that's kind of my thought. What do you guys think about the decline in apprenticeships? Why is it happening?
Speaker 3:I think a really big thing from coming not from Australiaralia yeah right, perfect um which I think is probably controversial, but interesting is that the cultural trend is that you have to go to uni. Here it's very, very um, looked down upon and like not common to finish school and go into an apprenticeship. And it's not that parents don't let you do it, it's that it's like, well, no, go to uni first and then when you finish your studies, then if you really want to do it, you can do it, whereas in the uk it's not that people don't go to uni, it's just that there's so much more acceptance around it. You're not a failure if you want to go and do an apprenticeship, and so people at the age of 16 and 18, it's very and even though I was encouraged not to for the sake you know it is not, but I did it and it was like not a weird thing. But I think here you know by the time you've worked out that you don't like what you're studying because your mum and dad forced you to go to uni, and then you're harder to mould you. Also, you need to be paid more, you're less mouldable and so going straight in at a younger age is better for the salon, better for the actual person who can really develop and grow.
Speaker 3:And I think it's just in a bad place. Like if my mum and dad had forced me to go to uni to settle some codswallop which I wasn't even interested in, I'd be probably really hard to manage too, because I'd be like I've already wasted all this time. Really hard to manage too, because I'd be like I've already wasted all this time. Do I really want to be the like bottom person in the salon now, which is that you know which is what you are, right, that's what you're there to do. So I think for me, being from England, that's why loads of people were sponsored, because there's so many English hairdressers that are just like I'll just work, I'll do whatever's required, and there just isn't that influx of Australian ones coming through because you just put off it left, right and center yeah, yeah, you're so right.
Speaker 5:It like, culturally, it has been seen as that oh, if I don't know what I want to do with myself and I want to quit school, so I'll go and do a hair apprenticeship, um that, I think that's a huge part of it. I think the other part of it is where we are in society at the moment. People coming out of school, um, their pay expectation, their life flexibility, all of that is much different.
Speaker 5:Yeah, um, so they don't necessarily, um, I say they, but you know, whoever don't necessarily want to come out and be paid x amount, they want to be paid x amount without having to work from home literally because, and obviously like not not just like since, obviously after the covid shutdown, but even prior to that that flick like the flexibility, um, perhaps the saturday work hours, um, the, the pay rate, all of those things, um, I think like there's a generation of um. You know, like I think my parents aged they were like work hard. You know, like this you gotta work when you're sick, you you've got swine flu, you've got to work. But then some of the there's a huge lot of people in sort of that generation under that that are like sort of get handed everything and potentially it could be from that. Oh, I didn't. You know, it was hard for me growing up, so I don't want to make it hard for my kids.
Speaker 3:You know, whatever it's wrong. Kind of overcompensate, overcompensate.
Speaker 5:And so then they're like want all this extra stuff without having to work for it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What about salon suites and single operators? A lot of our industry in Australia is now moving more towards that.
Speaker 4:Do you think that is um affecting the apprenticeship rate as well? Can I just jump like into that and back out of it? Um, so I think about like the uni thing, huge thing which will, I think we'll talk about but I think, um, I would say like in our generation, the options for particularly girls not not just girls, but particularly girls if you wanted to leave school was hairdressing, beauty, um, child care, yeah, um, and then a lot of people then went on to do nursing and stuff as well, whereas I think now, if you want to leave school, you can do all of those. But you can also do a brow course, a lash course, a makeup course, and so those girls that would be interested in that beauty fashion you know industry can now go and do a short course, and so those girls that would be interested in that beauty fashion you know industry can now go and do a short course in makeup and go and like make 120 bucks per person on a Saturday and only have to do that.
Speaker 4:So I think that's a really big decline in the options, um, and at the same time, I too I think that um the options for genders as well. So I think you know the amount of girls that I know that did. I know a couple of girls that did mechanic apprenticeships, but now I know that there's a lot more industries, you know, changing and becoming more diversified and there are a lot more female plumbers and electricians and carpenters and stuff like that I feel like it's so cool when a female does like a male-dominated thing I'm like.
Speaker 2:I just need to have like, not a screwdriver.
Speaker 3:What's it called like? A? Oh my God.
Speaker 1:A wrench.
Speaker 3:A spanner. I've seen a spanner and some oil smeared over me and I'm just going to feel like the female action man.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think that there's obviously a lot more females, which is amazing for us as a whole going into so many other industries and trade-based things that you know are probably paid a little bit better and things like that as well. But yeah, I think that that has been a massive part of the decline in hairdressing apprenticeships.
Speaker 2:That is so, yeah, because hairdressing now, if you like hair or beauty, it's not the only way you can do your lash course. You can do your makeup course.
Speaker 4:I'd be really interested to see if it's if there's a decline in apprenticeships or if it's just a decline in hairdressing apprenticeships. Yeah, so yeah, and I think now, jumping into that point, I think the fact that again we're taking on our time, time again, I think so many hairdressers I know are burnt out. So we're, we've got smaller businesses, we've got smaller salons, like more widely, whereas it used to be, you know, 14 chair salons and that was, you know, that was a thing um, and we're doing smaller work and we're not as busy as we used to be because we have to do everything else as well, and so now we have no need for the tea and tidies who turn into apprentices, who turn into junior stylists, that turn into, um, yeah, senior styles. So, yeah, I think that that the the suite model um home salons, um, and rent a chair is great for the industry, but definitely putting putting a block in the industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I know like in America, let's say, most places are like suites and things like that. Now, However, they'll still they have their beauty school and then they go do their assistant. So like it's just a little bit of a different model. We've gone one way with the suites, but we haven't followed the other training area yet, so we've kind of just got this like disconnect is there a lack of skill there then?
Speaker 1:because I would worry that if you haven't got those people working their way up, that they don't get them to actually learn from more experienced people. Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing that I would be worried about. I feel like apprentices are important because people actually will value your time and creativity and everything you don't really get to nurture that without having done a full apprenticeship.
Speaker 3:Is this like the fast track courses? Oh my God, you can learn to be a complete, all-round hairdresser in just six months. It's like no, you can't, that's right. So now they do have a 12-month course where you can learn to be a complete, all-round hairdresser in just six months. It's like no, you can't.
Speaker 2:yeah, that's right so now they do have a 12-month course where you can learn to be a hairdresser. We were talking about this the other day, actually, because I completely understand why people are doing it. Because, let's say, you've just had kids, you've maybe moved on from the profession you were doing and you'd like to try something else, and you go I'd love to be a hairdresser. No one's going to hire me because I'm 30, I've got two kids at home, I can't do these crazy hours and get paid not that much. This is a great option for me, not realizing that you leave not skilled enough to be a professional hairdresser, not confident, yeah, and it's. It's a shame because I completely see that point of like I want to be a hairdresser, great, I can, yeah, and I've got all these other barriers that are stopping me. But it is unfortunate that I leave it after 12 months and they aren't ready for the salon.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think there has to be that balance between like um, the salon experience though, so like if they, if they're working in a salon and getting the experience and getting training at the salon at the same time as doing this, I think it's a much better scenario. But also like culturally. We spoke about culturally and it's probably different in the UK, I don't know but like the apprentices, um, and it's not everywhere and it's definitely changing, which is amazing. But that attitude of well, that's how I got treated when I'm an apprentice.
Speaker 2:That's how I'll treat.
Speaker 5:So you know like, so people are apprentices, are leaving, um, because they're kind of just not learning hair. They're just there for tea and tidy or cleaning the toilet or whatever. And unfortunately in Australia you actually get paid more to be a tea and tidy than you do to do an apprenticeship, and I know that obviously there's benefits of an apprentice I think we're going to talk about that anyway, what they get outside of the money. But from a salon owner's perspective, they're hiring apprentices with no intention to train Not everybody. But you know this has obviously happened.
Speaker 2:Broadly speaking. Yeah, broadly speaking so this has obviously happened.
Speaker 5:So obviously losing apprentices at the same time and then having someone who might have been an amazing hairdresser and loved the industry, but because they've had such a sour experience, so I don't know that it's necessarily one thing Like. I think studio and suites are awesome It'd be great if they could. You know, if they had the need to have someone to teach them but at the same time, there's salons that are hiring apprentices not for the right reasons anyway and they're not training them. So I think there's that We've got to look at the whole picture.
Speaker 2:I actually, when you said, jade, before, that they are, like you know, the bottom in the salon, I actually see it the exact opposite. I think they're the top. They are.
Speaker 4:they are the ones they run the salon.
Speaker 2:They run the salons. They're running around. They know absolutely everything that's going on. They know every single client. They also I couldn't do my job when I was in the salon. I could not do my job without them. There was been no way that I'd be able to make it through my day without that apprentice behind me making sure that we're doing it all. And I think it is really a shame that we have that cultural thing as hairdressers going. Well, you're the apprentice, so it's your job to do the washing up.
Speaker 2:Like no, it's actually everybody's unavailable and I should be doing the washing up, because you have just been running around like an absolute mad woman. So it would happen when I was like early, early on in my apprenticeship, everyone would sit there and watch me clean. Like what are you guys doing?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's right, they'd have the magazines out into that room, exactly.
Speaker 2:And they're like well, I've been working, I'm like so have.
Speaker 3:I.
Speaker 2:We've all been working today Like and I just don.
Speaker 5:I think what we've got to look at is not everybody's going to have different skill levels, and even we might all be hairdressers, but some people are going to be better at color and some people are better at cutting or whatever but as human beings, everybody's equal and so what I think needs to happen from a mentality perspective is switching that it doesn't whatever Some people answer the phone, some people whatever they're doing in the salon, but equally human beings, beings and equal responsibility.
Speaker 5:So like. Unfortunately, sometimes when you know stylists are back to back, they don't necessarily have time to do this because they're like back to back, and so maybe somebody that doesn't have exactly back to back they do it, but when they, when you do have time, you do it like I sweep the floor all the time in the space, I clean, I pack the dishwasher all the time. So I think that that kind of mentality has to change and that's really just a cultural thing. That's happened and I do know that it is changing. There's so many more salons that are changing that, which is amazing, and I hope it keeps going up. But yeah, I think it's necessarily a studio problem uh, you know an RTO problem.
Speaker 2:It's like it's a whole lot of stuff, I think. In that, um, it was like, well, that's what we had to do when I was an apprentice, so you have to do it too. I think it's kind that's a little bit of our mindset as well. When it comes to this 12 months course, it's like, well, I had to do four years, so so do you. And it's like well, do you? I don't think 12 months is the answer, but I don't think we have to have everything's changing. Life is changing and we should embrace that instead of saying, well, just because I did this 20 years ago, you have to do it exactly how I did it just has to be salon experience, that's the thing isn't, it, it's not about the amount of time.
Speaker 3:It's actually based on the individual and where they're getting this course where. Where is the course and what are they teaching you? Because I know that most of the the apprentices we've ever had, which isn't many that have gone to school.
Speaker 3:When they come in and we do in salon training, which we're really big on and we commit to, they're like never will learn this at school and I'm like, yes, school are literally teaching you the basic minimum, and the people generally that are educating at the schools got educated years and years ago, haven't been on the floor and a little bit dated yeah, not everyone, you can't say, but you know. Then you have all the stylists and salon that are on the floor every day with the latest trends and these. That's what they need to be doing, and then they need to be experiencing the runnings of the salon, and that's the problem with 12-month courses. It's not, it's where they're getting educated, who's educating them, and the lack of exposure and experience also.
Speaker 5:So much of hairdressing is not actually just the physical stuff you're doing, it's how to communicate with people, how to speak to people, how to build rapport. So sometimes you know like, depending on the individual, they may have that well above somebody that's done four years of an apprenticeship straight up, because they've got that life experience, they've got that personality, all those things. So I think there's so many things to consider and it's not like a one size fits all.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As business owners, do you put emphasis on hiring apprentices? Do you feel like that's an important part of not only your role in the industry, but just for your business? I do yes for both.
Speaker 5:I do it because I think for the greater good, because I want it also because I want people to have a great experience in the industry and change the industry as a whole. So you know, bringing those people in that have that amazing, wonderful experience. But also we need them in future and from a business perspective, yeah, I think like absolutely from a profitability. They they add to the profitability because hairdressers can work back to back if they've got an assistant, wincing their colors and teaching at the same time. I'm also somebody as well that I don't like the apprentices to just be sweeping the floor for the next two years. As soon as they come in, we're going to start on shampooing and everything straight away color and ribbon. Then we're going to start on blow waving because, if I can, if, if the apprentice can also generate income for the salon, that's better as well.
Speaker 1:On the flip side, when you say it makes money for the salon, I believe I could be wrong. But mature-aged apprentices are they a little bit more expensive? Do you feel like you want to be employing them as well? How do you feel not only about the younger apprentices, but mature age apprentices? Do they have a spot in here as well?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think so. Anytime, it comes down to the individual. Like you know, your higher 15 year old sometimes they struggle to show up for work and the other times they're just like in there, motivated. So you know, and it can be the same for everybody. So I have recently employed a mature age apprentice and she is amazing, I have to tell you. She actually was a fashion teacher at an RTO and always wanted to do hair. She had her own sustainable fashion brand and she actually came to us and said can I have a job? I'm in that place of my life, I've always wanted to do hair and now I can afford to do it and afford to do an apprenticeship and so. But then on the other side, there there could be, there's definitely some that just struggle to get to work, but it's the same for the younger people. So I think, yes, they are more expensive.
Speaker 3:Um, however, I'll always just hire on personality and like personality and work ethic and all of those things first, regardless of how old they are yeah, we had a a negative experience, but it wasn't because she was mature, but but I think it's really about the person. Like you said, it's personality, but they were things that would be more attributes of someone that was mature. So, just having your own life, like the expectations times, hours were set out, everything's sweet, great in salon and said you know, from this date I can start doing the late nights which you need your apprentice on the late night, right, it's a really busy time. And so I think it was a few weeks. She said, in three weeks I can commit to that. And I was like that's fine, we'll make it work for three weeks. Then it was four, and then it was five. And then she was like I'll just have to let you know. And I was like do you know what you're so good, I'm gonna. I'm gonna like take my foot off the pedal. If you can't do the late nights, we'll make it work. That's fine, um.
Speaker 3:But then you know there had to be a few meetings and uh, like, literally at the end of the day it'd be like, right, um, this still needs doing, but I'm gonna run now, I've just got to go and pick up my daughter and I'd be like, yeah, I've got to see my kids too at some point, but like we're all here, we're all cleaning, still, yeah. And she'd be like I've got commitments. And I was like, okay, well, I have commitments too, you know, um? And then it got to the point where there was a conversation of, yeah, I just can't, I just can't work Saturdays anymore. It's not working for me. And I was like right, so you can't do the late night and you can't do Saturdays. And then we just had to basically equally say you know, this isn't working, but she, she really wanted the job and wanted to stay, but just had to. Just wasn't like. When I say mature, I think she was in her 40s.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And was just like, yeah, I've got to get my daughter, now I've got to go. And I was like you can't like no one here is going yeah.
Speaker 2:It's such like a mindset shit. I saw it in Kmart randomly at Christmas and it was absolutely crazy like you can imagine the limers out the door, it was just wild and there was this little 17 year old on the register and they just looked at their watch and they were like lunchtime yeah, and they just left and I was gobsmacked like I could not believe what I was looking at and I said I said, can you believe that just happened? And whoever I was with was like, well, I probably had to go on lunch or they'd miss it.
Speaker 4:I said well, you missed it, they just don't get it. Hey, they're like, of course I will say something to my friends one day about, oh, lunch breaks. And they're like, they're entitled to lunch breaks, emma. And I'm like no, I know that.
Speaker 2:But well, it's time to go, so I'll be going. Of course. You are then going to do that, whereas if you've got that 16-year-old and you're teaching them from 16, like we all do everything together, we're a team we chip in.
Speaker 3:I was just shook.
Speaker 4:And I was like look at that poor little girl, she's running around now by herself. And they were like well, that's what happens, it's the manager's fault, they should have had more staff, yeah, and I'm like I could never imagine that, ever, ever.
Speaker 2:And I'm still in that here in the office. 12 o'clock on the dot is lunchtime and everyone comes down and they're all eating their lunch. And I always miss lunch because I'm like, oh, I'm not hungry yet, I'm not finished my work, I'll come down to 2.30 maybe and eat, but yeah, I miss lunch every day because I'm like oh, I'm not finished, it's inbred in me.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it is Like, I'm just like I don't know it's a flexible understanding of reading what's happening and going, you know like oh no, hang on, I'll get lunch, but I'll just have to. I'm just going to help you for the next half an hour and because I can see that this place is busy, or you know.
Speaker 5:I'll just quickly help everybody else to catch up and then, yeah, yeah, I think I think of, obviously, with hairdressing people, there's a lot of times out there where lunch break isn't in there, which it needs to be, because I think it's very important, very important. But you got to have that flexibility. If you don't go at 12, you got 12, 30 like whatever yeah, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:So on that note then, because that sounds awful not having lunch. How are we attracting apprentices?
Speaker 2:because you don't get. Yeah, that doesn't. Yeah, that's right that doesn't sound very amazing.
Speaker 1:Um, what do you guys think that, uh, we could do or should be doing to attract apprentices? Because they are changing and although it's uncomfortable because we are all from a generation where you got up and you worked and you stay behind and maybe it's we don't think it doesn't sit right with us because we're not used to it yes Whereas it's changing, and maybe for the better, yes. How do we sort of adapt to what the new generation are coming through with and make it desirable for them to want to work in?
Speaker 3:the salon. We have to move with the salon owners or as an industry.
Speaker 1:Everything.
Speaker 3:All of it. Yeah, both.
Speaker 5:We have to move with the times. I think Some people are so stuck in the way we used to and you're like well, how is that working for you, right?
Speaker 5:now yeah exactly, we're not like this anymore and even though you know, like we said, joked before about flexibility and things like that, I think we do actually have to be flexible, you know, with those kinds of things and have that balance. But we also have to make it fun. People want fun because all they see on social media is fun. You know, like it's not very often that the not fun stuff is shared. So we have to make it fun. And, yeah, knowing what they like, I guess, showing them what the end looks like, so you know, really selling what kind of things can happen at the end of it, like, maybe you want to work in the movies or maybe you want to, you know, like that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5:I think one sort of strategy that we all we really do is, I think, when I try to hire, um, and just put lots of uh emphasis on, you know, job ads, it hasn't really worked because then you just get everyone applying that doesn't necessarily want to do hair and I think more of that.
Speaker 5:Um, well, I kind of just went. I'm just going to wait for the universe to deliver. This is what I need and they delivered. It delivered right, um, but you know we do have to be a bit proactive as well. So school-based apprentices, for example, I wrote out this email to and, you know, said what pure has to offer and what it's like to work for us and all those things, and we sent it to the local schools and that's how I got my school-based apprentices and they're amazing, um, you know. So I think we have to have that proactive, but we also have to make it like let them know what all the what they get out of it, you know, and what's the opportunities and you know in their training time, and then post that, all of those kinds of things, and make it fun because they all everyone wants to see fun yeah, that no one wants to go anywhere.
Speaker 4:That's boring yeah, and I think too, like there's there's such a. You know, we talk about apprenticeships. We talk about apprenticeships. An apprenticeship is a form of education and so when we actually look at it as education, um, I've done a fair few talks with uh different like high schools around town and stuff, and one of the biggest things that I say is, like tafe isn't here to teach you how to be a hairdresser. I'm not here to teach you how to be a hairdresser. You're here to learn how to be a hairdresser. I am going to provide a space where we will provide you knowledge and you can practice and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:Tafe is this really safe space for you to like go and make mistakes.
Speaker 4:You know you're learning on mannequin heads and all of that kind of thing, but like you have to want to be a hairdresser. So if you are in TAFE with, I want to say, 30 apprentices, but there might be like 10 now, um, then and you can't, and you come back and you're like I don't know how to do a solid form haircut, you can google it. Like, if I don't know something, I find it out. It's not, yeah, it's not someone else's job to teach me. Yeah, it's up to me to find out what I don't know. And is it? I don't know because of I've only been shown how to do it, but I actually need some audio on how to do it, or I need to be you know, I need videos or I need like photos of step by step or whatever it is, and so I think we need to be flexible in, like, how we engage with each apprentice. Yeah, um, but I also think it's really important to remember that an apprenticeship is a form of education yeah, I think they have to be have to be.
Speaker 4:So many apprentices are like, oh, I wasn't taught this in TAFE and it's all they say.
Speaker 3:I've got a model for tonight, but can I go early? And I'm like but that's why you're here, so we're just. The main reason that you're here is so that we can teach you. So could you want me to help find your model?
Speaker 2:and hammer right when I was at uni, like with the model. Let's say, when I was at uni, if I hadn't you know, you do an assignment and if I said to the lecturer um, oh well, you didn't teach me that, so I didn't write about it fail it's up to you.
Speaker 5:You don't, totally. Don't start that back making coffee and expect to learn how to do a solid form haircut. You go out the front and you go. You're doing a solid form. Can I watch you? Can you explain to me what you're doing as you're doing it, right? You know again for like us.
Speaker 4:You know, being a regional town, if I wanted to learn something, well, I wasn't even allowed to go to TAFE. Tafe come to us, so we were all. We were taught on our day off um in the salon by our boss and then the TAFE would come to us and do our testing. I think we have to know the the roles of everyone in the salon so we go back to those tea and tidies. If you need to hire someone because you're so busy to clean for you, do not hire an apprentice that's right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, hire a team if you need someone that just wants to be booking appointments, selling retail, being the phone person, being, you know, stock manager. Hire a salon assistant or receptionist. If you need to grow your team, then that's maybe when you can look at an apprentice, and I think it's really important for us to know that we're not hiring cleaners we're hiring future hairdressers and that is so important for them to know that too.
Speaker 4:I even started um hiring a cleaner, and so you know it was really important at the end of the day. You know people call it cheap labor like that, and that's what I think broadly. People like oh it's, it's $12.50 to hire a first year apprentice. Yeah, yeah. She should be mopping the floors doing this, doing that, but in four years time I'm going to be able to charge that person out at a lot more money than that. So I sort of thought it was $75 an hour for a cleaner to come in.
Speaker 4:And she came in two hours a week and the salon was spotless because she came in 16 year old, scrubbing, yeah, but she, she came in when the salon was closed and that's why it was more like, yeah, quite expensive, the salon was closed, she could move all the chairs around, like all of that kind of stuff, and it's like I have a problem at the moment. The salon's not clean enough. I'm not going to hire an apprentice, I'm hiring a cleaner Because I want my apprentice to be practicing blow waves, yeah doing hair Like at the end of the day.
Speaker 4:And again, talking about this is what you know we did. Yeah, we all hated our apprenticeship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like don't do that again. Yeah, like don't repeat the mistakes of that. We've got to let the industry know that, we've got to let the industry know that and the apprentices. So we've got all the right thoughts, but I think, even like what you were saying about the talks in schools, like why is there not a platform where different trades can go in and talk about apprenticeships, in from the, the good bosses and the right outlook, like the right lens in schools?
Speaker 4:but I think they are. They are definitely. I know, yeah, they need to start like all these things like career days and things like that, where you can go and you can yeah, 100% yeah, no, but I think I just yeah. I think it's really important to make sure that we're actually attracting apprentices to be hairdressers yeah and not to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cheap labor. So what are the options for apprenticeships? And I genuinely mean that is that. Is it actually only TAFE, Like what? Can they only go through that option? What is available? I think that's the base.
Speaker 4:It used to be, but there's so many more amazing things now.
Speaker 5:Like we personally use a different provider where they come in and they actually work one-on-one with the apprentice and I think that's an amazing model, they work one-on-one. Then they also yes, you have to learn things in a specific order. For example, you, you're not going to necessarily learn, um, how to bleach, put bleach on someone's hair if you don't know color theory. Like, obviously there's some order, but then it's flexibility too. So, like I know, for example, in the um, the TAFE model, um, you know, I used to find because we used to use tape I used to find a couple of things. Firstly, they were learning like styling and up styling at the end and I'm like, no, let's get that, because that's something that I can get you doing earlier, um and so, and you can undo it unlike a cut or a color like if it goes wrong, take it out and start again absolutely so those kinds of things.
Speaker 5:But also, you know the classes, they start big but then they people drop off and they get smaller.
Speaker 5:But you know, for example, like they would go in and they would have, um, perhaps only one model for the whole entire class, because you know people can pay and then they put in one foil each and then their foils would get marked off and that's not ideal, right? Um, it's like, well, actually you can't foil because you can put one foil in. It's like there's so many things as we know to foil. You know parting and angles and all the things. So, um, so I find that this model we use is so much better because I, we can see exactly where they are, we can make it, um, they're one-on-one, so they're getting all the attention, um, and like.
Speaker 5:Another example is when I went to um to tafe at the time, like, both my sister and my mom were hairdressers, although I don't remember my mum working in a salon, so I was actually pretty savvy. Like my sister used to teach me stuff. So I remember one time I was 17 years old and I heard the teacher say I'm too busy to help you. Go and ask Blair, she'll show you how to do it. Right, like, I'm like a 17 year old, I'm thinking I need to because I was like pushing through so fast.
Speaker 5:But I find that that's what would happen is, and then the ones that are moving fast too like because they understand it and fast in a way that they're able to not, you know, just trying to move fast they're getting held back. This is what I found, because they have to wait for the whole class to then be taught that next step, whereas when they're doing one-on-one, they can just move to the next thing because they don't have to wait for the teacher to teach the whole class that. So I'm finding that this is a really awesome um model for us specifically. Might not be for everybody and it might also just be different in different cities, but I find that this model is the best for us that used to be my job in the salons was I had eight apprentices that I would train every week.
Speaker 2:So every Monday everyone would come and we would do our training. We had, because there were so many, we would split it into two sections of the day, and what was great about that was if we could identify look, this person's really struggling with cutting at the moment. We're going to hone in on cutting for you. Everyone else is going to move on. Like you know, they can move on, and you're just going to take a little bit longer doing that. That's totally fine.
Speaker 2:Yes, the other great thing about it was we use a color brand. That at the time was very different. It was ammonia free, um, and all of the tapes they don't. They did not understand that in the slightest, like they just had absolutely no comprehension of that. So we were actually able to teach them our color brand, how we color and why we do it this way, um, and it was just so much easier for everyone, and then we would have our rto come out, they would do their assessments and then we were able to do it. We were also able to teach them our techniques yes, and the way that we wanted them to do things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, instead of. You know, this is how you do a beautiful full head of foils.
Speaker 3:Sure, it might take you a little bit longer, but this is how we expect you to do it, whereas at tafe it is, this is the easiest way, not the best way I honestly, we actually employed a lady who was a educator for a for an institute and I remember obviously, like did a trade test, it was all good and she was experienced, and I remember doing foils once and she was like, what are you doing? And I was like just putting in a sectioning pattern? She was like, oh, you section it? And I was like what do you mean? And she was like I've never been taught a sectioning pattern. We just kind of, like, you know, take like a parting to separate the front and then we just put in foils and spread them out.
Speaker 3:And I was like you know, coming from Tony and Guy background, there's like three different kinds of full head depending on the natural parting, the, the length of the hair, the outcome that you want to achieve of course and I was, but but she is a teacher, she's teaching the students and I was like, oh my god, so touching on what you said, like I think the best and always the most efficient way is being in the salon. Someone come out for me. School is box ticking to get a piece of paper which actually has anyone ever asked for someone's certificate no, I haven't I just want to see your trade test.
Speaker 3:I want to see how you speak, how you show up, and I've never seen a certificate. Like maybe I shouldn't say that, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 5:Like it's 100% and of course're all yeah you know, I've had the same thing. I had a teacher bring me to cut their child's hair, um, curly, because she didn't know how to do it. She goes I've tried this, I've tried this and it's not working. And then I have a friend who's a hairdresser that apparently gets a head onto you and she like by not by me, but at the salon, and she said I was watching that girl over there. She was cutting curly hair. You should go in and ask her how to do it. So I cut her daughter's hair and then I had.
Speaker 5:Then she brought the next daughter and I and I showed her, and so this is kind of like where it gets a bit. It's very old-fashioned and outdated what they're teaching. So I think, having that model of coming into the space, like you said, gabby, we can teach them how we like to do it. We can teach them new techniques. We have, you know, like we have, complete control of what gets marked off as well, because they do it on the models and we mark it off, not the.
Speaker 5:RTO.
Speaker 2:Thinking about this from my education background. We don't send our students to school our kids to school, let's say and expect them to come out a whole rounded adult that knows everything. We expect them to come home and know maths, and know science and English the things that we can't teach.
Speaker 1:There's a baseline that you want them to be taught, and creativity should be theirs and then they come home to our house and we teach them the rest.
Speaker 2:We teach them how to be a human.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe that's what how we need to look at those tapes. A hundred percent and that's what I mean. I think tape is that, that safe space, yeah, to make mistakes absolutely it's that safe space to trial and error and to like push the boundaries and to do all of that kind of stuff, then your salon that you're working in is the space to refine those skills. But then it's also up to you to do your homework Like you.
Speaker 5:Really you have to you have to do your homework and I think an apprenticeship is an awesome way to get those skills. You've got to be, you've got to be um proactive, but get those skills and get paid. Along the way you get, you'll get your. You know, you get education paid for as opposed to having to pay for it yourself.
Speaker 3:All those amazing things so if you're considering being an apprentice, guys, this is your call. We've got lots of different states and business owners let us know, but just you gotta want to do've got to want to love hair.
Speaker 4:So before, when I was talking about, I think we need to see apprenticeships as education. I think, if we look at it in, you've got education option number one and you've got education option number two. I won't say which is which, but I'm pretty sure you'll have an idea. Education option number one is three years and you get paid for every single minute that you're there. It's not a heap, but it's paid. Education option number two might still be three years and you don't get a cent to be there. You then have to work a part-time job to make up for the extra money that you need. Education number one you get three years of work experience. So not only do you have all of the foundations of theory, but you also have all of the practical knowledge as well to become the junior on your field. And then education number two is you get again unpaid weeks, maybe months, worth of that practical experience in those three years. Sometimes you know.
Speaker 4:Education number one you generally can get your study done at your hometown so that you don't have to move away. You can potentially live with your parents while getting paid. Education number two you have to go to the cities and blah, blah, blah, blah. Education number one you have a pretty much guaranteed job at the end of that education. Education number two you don't you have to then potentially move away and all of that kind of stuff and then at the end you have of. Education number one you have been paid the whole time, you have years of industry experience, you've got the connections in the industry. You've had the ability to um, you know, go to other different education sources. You have no debt. So from the next day after that education you are fully qualified, ready to rock and roll and make some decent money.
Speaker 4:Education number two you've got a piece of paper and $50,000 worth of debt and up to tens of thousands dollars worth of debt, and so I think, if we really really look at those in align with each other, why are we saying that apprentices don't get paid enough? I agree that it's so hard to live in any industry at the moment, Like it's. The cost of living is so hard.
Speaker 4:but when you can work 40 hours a week and get an education or you can study, I don't even you know, I don't even know how many hours you have to study for, but even say 20 for free, and then go and have to work a part-time job in bars or night times and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:And then you still have a debt to finish with. So I think we really, really need to show the world how bloody cool apprenticeships are, because we've got an amazing generation of young leaders coming up that want to change what that is for apprentices. Because I don't want to give my apprentices the experience that I had. I don't think you do. I don't think you do. You know we get to work with amazing companies like you guys to have that like benefit coming through the whole industry. So, yeah, love it, go apprenticeships, absolutely Go apprenticeships, get paid to learn. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're very lucky that we have an industry that lets us do that as well.
Speaker 4:Gives me goosebumps, I guess, yeah, you just love it. I'm excited about it, love that.
Speaker 1:On that note, thanks so much, guys for joining us. Hopefully that's given you a good insight into apprenticeships from a business owner's perspective and just the industry in general. All links to do with the podcast will be down below on the Eco Salon Supplies website. Thanks again, guys, Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.