Scott Moore: Welcome to the "Building Faith and Family" podcast with Steve Demme.  I'm your host, Scott Moore. Thanks for joining us today. 

Scott: Good morning, Steve. How are you today? 

Steve: I'm well. How are you? 

Scott: I'm pretty good. 

Steve: Your throat sounds better. You don't have a cold anymore? Scott: No. I think I'm over it. 

Steve: I was in Michigan this week, north of you. 

Scott: That state up north, huh?  

Steve: It's the one that looks like a big mitten. I had the privilege of speaking at a  conference called APEX, which is run by Unbound. Do you remember Jonathan Brush? Scott: Yes. 

Steve: He's been going out to St. Louis with us for many years, and Jonathan started  an organization called Unbound about 11 years ago, and I've known him for longer  than that. This was the first time I had the opportunity to speak at their year‑end  conference. There were approximately 170 young people with lots of staff, parents,  and adults, and it was awesome. 

Scott: Nice. 

Steve: I didn't know what to expect, but I had a wonderful time. I shared my story. I  talked about how God not only loves us, He likes us, and some of the process that I  had to go through to arrive at that wonderful conclusion. 

Sometimes when you speak, you can sense the audience pushing back a little bit. I  didn't sense that at all. These young people were drinking it out of me, as were the  parents. 

When I finished speaking Thursday morning, the rest of Thursday into the night late  and the next day until I was a little bit late leaving for my drive to the airport, I had  many one on one, one on two, one on three, really deep conversations. I remember sitting at lunch with some young people who had prepared their  questions ahead of time, which in itself is impressive. They said, "How do you prepare  your mind to meet with God?" I thought, "Wow, I've never been asked that question  before."  

These were earnest young people, which was so refreshing, and especially since I had  a chance to talk about the things that are very dear to my heart, and that made for  some wonderful communion, if I can put it that way, the sharing of our hearts and  ideas, and it was rich. 

Steve: God certainly met us. If you have any young people out there, check out  Unbound, U‑N‑B‑O‑U‑N‑D. I can't put it into a capsule, but I would say they teach a  lot of things that you hope your kids get before they go off to college. A lot of life  skills, leadership skills, while creating a community of like minded believers. Those  kids were special. 

Steve: Now to our podcast. We’ve been studying God's attributes. We've talked about  him being our Creator, our Shepherd, that He's Holy, and He's king. We're going to  shift gears a little bit, and discuss something which has a fancy name,  anthropomorphism. Have you ever heard that word? 

Scott: Anthropomorphism? Yeah. 

Steve: I had Latin many years ago and recall that anthropos means man, and morph,  like morph into a different shape, morph means form. It's man and form or the form  of man. It's used to describe God in human terms to help us comprehend God in a  new way. 

For example, if I said, "What is God like?" You might jump to the book of John and  say, "Well, God is like the door," or, "God is like the water," or, "God is like the bread,  the bread of life." He said, "I am the bread of life. I am the door." 

These are more akin to similes, because it says God is like these things, but an  anthropomorphism takes it to a different level. Before we proceed, let's pray. We don't want to have our noodles baked. We want to be able to comprehend what  God is trying to teach us from His word when He has different names for His son.  Father, give us ears to hear what is spiritual. Paul talked about the natural man that  does not understand the things of the spirit and the spiritual man who does. I pray that you will move us from anything in us that's natural and make us spiritual.  Help us to comprehend the things of the spirit. Wash us in the blood of Jesus this  morning. Wash us in your word. Fill us with your spirit in a new way so that we can  enter into these realities in a new way. In Jesus name, amen. 

Scott: Amen. 

Steve: I'm going to start with one that I think we're all familiar with, but I want you to  think of it in terms of an anthropomorphism. "In the beginning was the Word, and the  Word was with God, and the Word was God." 

When we read that, we're so used to that passage it rolls off our tongue. We probably  don't even think about it, but we know right away, "Oh, that's Jesus," because it says  in the next verse, “He was in the beginning with God, all things were made through  Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” 

If I can back up a little bit to use something that we're familiar with, I don't know how  you envision the Word and the Word. Is it a capital W? Is it a big book? What would a  child think if he read that for the first time? Who's the Word? What's a Word? We know  the Word was God, and we know it's Jesus. 

We have gotten our mind around that long time ago. It says He made all things, which  we have recently studied in the creation and the creator. Hebrews 11:3 says, "By faith,  we understand that the universe was created by the word of God." My mind does a couple different things when I hear that. I think of when God spoke  and creation came into being, but I'm also mixing that with what I read in John, that it  was Christ. All things were made through Jesus Christ. Without Him, nothing was  made that was made. 

Then it says in Colossians 1:16-17, "By Him, all things were created, both in the  heavens and on Earth, visible and invisible. Whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers,  or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all  things, and in Him, all things hold together." 

If I can say it, my noodle's being stretched right here because while He created all  things, and He even created things that we can't see. He created thrones, dominions,  rulers, authorities, and He holds them all together. 

When I think of that, I think of a mysterious force, if you can put it that way, that  holds an atom together. Why don't the electrons go spinning out into space? Why  don't the protons and the neutron, what holds them all together? It's Christ. He holds  all things together.  

This is stuff that stresses our natural understanding. 2 Peter 3:5, "The heavens  existed long ago, and the Earth was formed out of water and through water by the  word of God." I think the word of God is an easy one. That's why I chose it because it's  something that we're familiar with. 

Jesus is the Word made flesh. Jesus is the Word, but I don't know if you ever tried to  picture the Word or picture how the Word created the world. Hebrews 1:2, "In these  last days, He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things,  through Whom also He created the world." Very clear. 

Then 1 John 1, John the apostle's writing, he says, "We proclaim to you the One Who  existed from the beginning, Whom we have seen and heard. We saw Him with our own  eyes and touched Him with our own hands. He is the word of life. This One Who is life  itself was revealed to us, and we have seen Him."  

If you're following along and trying to rethink this or re‑visualize this, He's the Word  of life and yet John touched Him, and He holds all creation together. God is  expanding our understanding of Who Jesus was/is. Do you have any observations? Scott: No.  

Steve: OK. Let me stretch our noodle a little bit more. 

Scott: I'm trying to drink it all in and wrestle with it, so keep going. Steve: What I'm trying to say is, is that I think the word of life, the word of God is  more than a metaphor, or an illustration, or a simile. He really was the word of life. I  can't picture that, but I'm accepting it. 

The Bible also speaks about Jesus as the Lamb of God. Same thing. I'm very used to  that. That's not a new thought to me. If somebody walked into the church for the first  day and they heard John the Baptist exclaim, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes  away the sin of the world." They may wonder, what does that lamb look like? One thing I want to introduce here is, is that what we see on Earth are, if I can put it  this way, they're replicas. They're not the original. The original is in heaven. C. S. Lewis makes a great point of that in his space trilogy, "Out of The Silent Planet,"  etc., that what we see and are accustomed to and are familiar with, God uses these  things to illustrate things that are a heavenly reality. 

In the same way, the first tabernacle, the tabernacle that appears at the end of the  Bible in Revelation, the tabernacle that God showed Moses on the mount, that's the  original. The one that God's chosen anointed men, Oholiab and Bezalel, built on the  Earth was, you might say, a replica, but the original's in heaven. 

I'm going to read something from Revelation, by the way, I don't know what John was  thinking when he tried to describe the four living creatures or what Ezekiel tried to  describe when he described those living beings in the book of Ezekiel, but they're  different, and they look strange to me. 

Anyway, here's what it says in Revelation 5:6. "I saw between the throne with the four  living creatures and the elders a lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and  seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the Earth." When I picture a lamb, I don't picture one standing. Maybe he was on all fours, but it  sounds like he was standing similar to a man. Then it says, "As if slain," so he must  have had pierced markings on Him or something to indicate that he had been slain. Perhaps there were still blood marks on His coat, if he had a coat, and this lamb had  seven horns and seven eyes. That's a little different than the lamb that I would have  expected to see. 

How did John describe that? He must have known it was a lamb because he said it  clearly, it's a lamb, but he noticed that it was a little bit different than the lambs that  he'd seen on Earth. Then he made the connection that these horns and eyes, these  seven eyes, were the seven spirits of God. How would he know that? When I think of spirit, I don't think of something that has a ‑‑ I don't know how to  describe it ‑‑ a body. I don't think you could see something that is the spirit, but he  did, and he knew what he was seeing.  

This is all introductory, but it's all scripture and it's valid. I hope that God is stretching  us as we read this because there's a bunch of stuff in scripture that is outside, you  might say, what appears in our Sunday school curricula. There are a lot of things that  when you really take it for face value, exactly how it's written, is going to stretch us. Now what I want to talk about the Rock. We talked about this once a couple years ago.  The Rock being Jesus. Rock with a capital R. This is not the first time he appears, if I  can put it that way, as the Rock, but this is one, and it's probably the most common  one. 

Let's start with the most common and move from there. Exodus 17:4-7, They’re in  the wilderness, and it's dry. Really dry. It's a dry wilderness. "Moses cried to Jehovah,  'What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me.'"  They were thirsty. "Jehovah said to Moses, 'Pass on before the people, taking with you  some of the elders of Israel, and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the  Nile, and go. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall  strike the rock and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.' "Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel, and he called the name of the place  Massah and Meribah. Water came out of the rock because he stood there and was  struck." What a picture. That water was not for five people. This was a couple million people, and water flowed from that rock and satisfied their thirst. As you and I know,  you don't drink once in 40 years. You drink all the time.  

Numbers 20:5-11, a little bit different here, and so significant that Moses didn't get  into the Promised Land because of what transpired. "Why have you made us come out  of Egypt to bring us to this evil place? It is no place for grain, or figs, or vines, or  pomegranates, and there is no water to drink."  

(They’re fussing at Moses again and still thirsty.) 

"Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of  the tent of meeting and fell on their faces, and the glory of Jehovah appeared to them.  Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, 'Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you  and Aaron, your brother, and tell or speak to the rock before their eyes to yield its  water. 

"'So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation  and their cattle.' Moses took the staff from before Jehovah as He commanded him.  Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said  to them, 'Hear now, you rebels. Shall we bring water for you out of this rock?’ Moses  lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out  abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock.’" 

This is why Moses didn't get to go into the land, because God had told him, "Just talk  to the rock. Just speak to the rock." Moses was mad. He was angry with these  rebellious people. He called them, "A bunch of rebels," and he smote the rock twice.  We know, at least I do in my head, he smote Christ. Christ was the one standing  before that rock. He's the one that was going to supernaturally bring water out of this  rock. 

All their time in the wilderness, it was the rock that supplied the water for the  congregation and their cattle, which is a lot of water. 

Deuteronomy 8:13-16, "When your herds and flocks multiply, and your silver and  gold is multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied, then your heart be lifted up,  and you forget Jehovah your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the  house of slavery. 

"Who led you through the great and terrifying wilderness with his fiery serpents and  scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water, Who brought you water out  of the flinty rock, Who fed you in the wilderness with manna. He brought them water  

in that thirsty ground where there was no water. He brought them water out of the  flinty rock.” 

We're going to come back to that word flinty at another time. 

Nehemiah 9:13-15 says the same thing. He rehearsed the history of Israel, and then  he said, "You gave them bread from heaven for their hunger and brought water for  them out of the rock for their thirst." This was a theme that the children of Israel held  onto, and it was part of their heritage. 

Psalm 78:19-20, "They spoke against God saying, 'Can God spread a table in the  wilderness? He struck the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed.'" 

Psalm 105:39-41, "He spread a cloud for a covering and fire to give them light by  night. They asked and He brought quail, gave them bread from heaven in abundance.  He opened the rock and water gushed out. It flowed through the desert like a river."  What a picture.  

Psalm 114:7-8, "Tremble, O earth, at the presence of Jehovah, at the presence of the  God of Jacob, Who turns the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a spring of water." Isaiah 48:20-21, "Jehovah has redeemed His servant Jacob. They did not thirst when  

He led them through the deserts. He made water flow for them from the rock. He split  the rock, and water gushed out." 

Now this is our last scripture in this whole section and perhaps our first scripture in  our next podcast. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. New Testament. We're not in Isaiah, we're not  in the Psalms, we're not in the Pentateuch. We have moved to the New Testament.  Paul is speaking. "I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all  under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in  the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same  spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the  Rock was Christ." 

What are your thoughts? 

Scott: When you were talking about the lamb in Revelation, it occurred to me that  there's the picture of the seven horns and all that. At one point, there's the creature  that's got wheels, thousands of eyes, and all that stuff. 

Steve: Ezekiel. Yes. 

Scott: It's very mythical language. It's beyond what we can comprehend. That's really  helpful in some of these anthropomorphic illustrations or words, however you  describe it. It almost helps to have other stories to add emphasis to some of this  because when delve into the simple words of Jesus Who is the word and the Rock. The stories that go along with that, like the rock in the desert where water comes out  of it, OK, we're not talking about an ordinary rock here. Creation came from this  Word. All things were created through this Word. We're not talking about ordinary  words. 

When God says, "I am," you get the sense of, again, the mythic, not in the sense of not  being true, but in the sense of a larger story than we've ever imagined before. When  he says, "I am," it's so much more powerful. 

You imagine the booming sound of the voice of God saying, "I am." That's the only  way I can comprehend, "Well, OK, in the beginning was the Word." We're not talking  about a little word on my piece of paper in elementary school. Does that make sense?  I don't know how else to describe it. 

Steve: Yes. You're doing a really good job. To everybody that's listening to this, we  know that scripture is inspired, but we also know that there's more to it. It's not  two‑dimensional. It's not letters on paper. He's describing something that is  supernatural. The Word of God is loving and active. 

Scott: It reminds me of superheroes, like the Flash or Superman. You would think you  call Jesus the light. You're not talking about a light bulb that is sitting next to my desk  here. You're talking lightning and the sun, all the light ever, and he's bigger than that. I think God uses these things, these forms to, bad pun, enlighten us. He's using  things that are common, a rock, stone, water, a lamb, words to describe the  indescribable. It is a stretch, but yet we have to ...Like you said right at the beginning,  I'm chewing on this. 

Steve: I'm holding onto it, and I'm listening, and I'm letting it find its way into my  spirit because our spirit connects with it. There's something sweet about the fact that  God is revealing Himself in a different way. 

Why did He pick a rock? Why couldn't He have been a tree? I know why He picked the  lamb because He's building on everything else that He's been developing from the  Passover lamb to the lamb of sacrifice. That makes sense to me. The word, in a sense,  makes sense to me because Jesus is the living word made flesh. 

Scott: He took what God spoke, and then He lived it out. He became that reality, even  though that's a little bit of a stretch. The rock is a different kind of a stretch to me.  There's a ton more on this in the Bible, and I think I've missed it for many years  because I thought, "Well, he's solid.” Or it's just poetry. And it's reliable. It's way more  than poetry. 

Steve: It is. This rock, you're going to see, there is a lot in scripture on the rock.  That's a good way to put it. It's more than poetry. It's more than metaphors. There's  something that God wants us to get out of this. This is why we're studying it. I think our listeners, those of us who've been with us for a long time, this is not a  huge stretch because we've addressed this before, but it's a good question to ask.  Why did God choose the rock? But He did. Good place to stop. 

Father, thank you for your word. While we know that we're human and our brains are  limited, you are not. We're trying to comprehend the, in a sense, uncomprehendable.  At the same time, we're trying to be childlike and simply believe what we're reading. I pray that you'll help us and that you open our eyes to more about Jesus. If there's  something here that we need to get so that we'll understand Jesus more and be able  to appreciate and love him more, I pray that that will be something that you'll give us. Give us ears to hear spiritual things. Make us spiritual seers, so to speak. In Jesus'  name. Amen. 

Scott: Amen. That's our show for this week, folks. Thanks for joining us for the  Building Faith and Family podcast with Steve Demme. If you have a question for the  show, email Steve at spdemme@Gmail.com. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.